Tanks Are In Trouble If Blizzard Doesn't Fix This...

[@andreaskvaloy]

If tanks aren't having fun, nobody else is either (maybe except PvP/solo players). My logic is: Tanks have a bad time=>They don't play as much=>Nobody gets to do anything requiring a tank.

[@grimuk3817]

Its always the same. A full team can assemble and then its a waiting game. _HOURS_ later a tank finally joins ...

[@murrloc1859]

We were here before I don’t understand how a video game with a bunch data and they still don’t know wth to do

[@benjaminlear1619]

🤔. I think it's both sides of the argument that cause the problems.

[@Christopher_42]

PvP is even worse in TWW, unbalanced and greatly favors ranged and rogues.

[@burningsporkdeath]

As someone who has played since vanilla, primarily tank and healer, tank damage now looks like dps used to when they pulled aggro.

[@ShawnSetGO]

Yeeeeesh lol

[@TacBlades]

Tank DPS should always bottom of the meter

[@theheebs100]

@tacblades you read the comment incorrectly. he is saying the damage tanks take looks like dps pulling agro in previous expansions

[@alexdollesin300]

Mythics just feel more like work than fun this expansion. So decided to just bow out for now and unsub.

[@aibnercontreras1702]

What + should be barely doable?

[@morningglory2129]

To me only becayze people leave all the time. I was having fun this season until, the garbage players started doing higher keys and leaving every second.

[@MrBunnybusiness]

​@morningglory2129 only way to enjoy this season is not hugging. Im having way more fun just playing keys with friends. I stopped rating pushing like week 5. Shit season. So i play with friends i never see because of pushing

[@morningglory2129]

@@MrBunnybusiness i love pugging its the only way i would want to ever do keys. I just mainly want too not be forced too search for another group 5min into a dungeon over and over again becauze some scumbag leaves for some stupid reason. I would legit rather complete 10keys out of time then get 1 key timed but have 10 disbands.

[@ShawnSetGO]

I feel that, here to season 2 being better

[@yannickwylenmann9860]

I enjoy M+ as a Tank. I am sitting at 3k io atm with my prot pala. I kinda like the challange but some Tankbusters ar kinda overtuned like the Lavafist from the Golem in GB. I also play Mistweaver as a Alt and the mistakes i was seeing the most from tanks where: -Not having Basic mitigation up on Pull. (Like shieldblock, Bonecharges ect.) -Not pressing a def at the start of the pull. -pankipressing all of thery def as they drop low. -Letting mobs hit them in the back And not knowing when tankbuster happen(Weakauras might help there.) I think if tanks get this down they enjoy Tanking way more

[@metsfan1932]

To me the main problem is just that trash damage is too high overall. I dont know about other tanks, but I personally feel like on trash I'm fighting for my life and constantly feel like I'm on a knife's edge, where as bosses feel like a vacation. I think if trash was just a little bit less stressful, tanking would be a lot more fun.

[@TEveningsong]

There are multiple trash mobs with Tankbusters, ramping attack speed boosts, and stacking incoming damage taken debuffs. On top of that, Stops don't Interrupt Casts they only Delay them since the mob will just recast as the effect of the Stop wears off. Spam cast abilities that you wouldn't normally Kick b/c they spam casts can have Heal Absorbs on them or do high damage this Season, too. Another issue with the amount of high threat attacks mobs have is how that affects pull size and how that affects your DPS' ability to utilize their CDs effectively. In DF you could pull multiple packs if not half to full rooms with the right use of your mitigation and then the DPS could unload, killing the mobs quickly to prevent their dangerous Casts or attacks from stacking up. In S1 TWW if you're constantly having to pull more slowly - largely due to the number of dangerous trash mobs and how many of them are included in so many of the small packs in sequence, as well as the changes to Stops vs Kicks - it can throw off how your DPS handle their CDs, which means the pull drags on, which means more of those high threat hits/spam casts are going to be landing b/c those mobs are surviving longer. Blizzard claimed they wanted the incoming damage profiles to be more smoothed out, and gave that as the reason for a lot of the Tank changes in TWW - but then they didn't actually smooth out the damage or look at the mobs that made up the packs or potential to have so many deadly trash mobs together if you tried to pull more than 2 Packs with each other. This was entirely preventable, and while it's good that Blizzard is looking at it, they're looking at a problem they themselves created by not following their own stated design philosophy for S1 with tuning that matched and would have led to that goal being successfully attained.

[@vincenthammons-kd9du]

Grim batol is the worse like regular mobs should not hit that hard with just regular attacks

[@Icarus-l8z]

It's not just you, you pull a pack of 5 mobs on GB and they will nearly one shot you if you don't have mitigation up. That should only happen if you pull big

[@theheebs100]

bro, I need a like harder button. A fucken men.

[@deseanroot75]

Crafting gear has been great and its made even better with the reduced crest cost. As a M+ only person i can only get 1 myth piece a week. Sometimes i dont even get a piece because i already have it. Crafting has let me at least get some type of upgrade. Plus with Emblishments not being turbo bis like in DF, i dont have to worry about bum rushing them, but i can still use those as a first piece to target for when i do need to craft. Very often i was at 90 + gilded crests with nothing to upgrade and crafting helped a lot.

[@dolwolfianphotography]

I'm tank and healer and don't have fun anymore at all

[@Nuzxix]

The issue is that damage is way more spikey in tww then in previous expansions. Also some of the Tier pieces dont even come with vers. which would be great for a tanks to have. That paired with the high amount of constant damage since the way we interrupt is no longer possible via knockup/down made the damage that could have been prevented in the past happen and put a strain on tanks and healers. They need to rethink the approach to itemasation and how we get our stats. Also give us a token that we can use down the road to purchase items from the dungeons or upgrade BIS items from Champion to Heroic for example. All that said we also dont really have great tank trinkets currently - when DPS trinkets are better for tanks then the actual tank trinkets there is an issue.

[@insertnamehere4419]

I'm leveling a prot War and wondering why I'm bothering.

[@MrDoctorDave]

I got my Prot war up to 2700io this season, but if the proposed changes go through in not going to be playing it in season 2

[@leondavies9735]

In the stonevault if your playing paladin surely you can just dispel yourself on the first boss?

[@normannseils3936]

If you are not dwarf no tank can (reliably).

[@shanbin4896]

Bdk 638ilevel here been doing +14 and get crush badly not because of healing but running out of metigation unless dps crush the pack quick enough like example nw 1st pull. I have 5m dmg done and my selfhealing at 3.5m, my dps are doing at 13m+- dmg and still run out of metigation after 2mins of time.😢 where i play prot paladin 638ilevel is like playing with my eyes close and metigation still 100% uptime crushing 6.2m first pull and still have metigation on 2nd pull. Is just not balance

[@kalasmournrex1470]

prot paladin st dps is garbo at least

[@ragganmore6113]

@@kalasmournrex1470 Prot Pally i run with still does 700k-850k on Single Target Bosses (in +13-15 Keys) without BL. That's not exactly what i'd call garbo.

[@yannickwylenmann9860]

It feels like Paladin is not overtuned its the other Tanks that need to get on the same level. And blood dk is hard to balance just becous of how its kit works without being OP.

[@shanbin4896]

My bdk do about 550k-650k on ST while my prot pally is at 700-800k. But is not about the dmg, im fine with 0 dmg done but at least let me be what "TANK" supposed to be. Not asking whole team to wait for my cd in order to pull 1 single tank bust pack (which 90% of the pack have tank bust)

[@ragganmore6113]

@@shanbin4896 M+ is also about the Tanks damage. This is often times reason alone why certain tanks are meta while others are not. It is part of the reason why Paladins are currently Meta while Warriors, who can take more punishment, are not. It's not about the utility the Tank provides (which paladin has plenty) but mostly about, can you survive and can you deal damage. But for anything that is in the range of weekly Keys (so currently up to +10) it doesn't matter what you play. You can tank it all. It's more of a Player Issue than a Class Issue. The Person the Reddit Thread is from in this Video is just a Player that hasn't learned his Class and is sad that he can't win while doing nothing at all. Plenty of people tanked +12s on his ilvl which is a massive step up from the +9 he is complaining about.

[@SteveSchweichler]

I run 12s on my DPS and shammy healer but I'm afraid to even do 10s on my blood dk. I have 627 item level. Have done 9s in all dungeons on him. But if I'm not keeping my death strikes up because I'm trying to catch an interrupt or pull a mob to me. I end up getting crushed

[@killstardostudios5444]

Blood dk and prot warrior both feel a little underwhelming to me. I have both at 622 and 621 respectively and they feel like they get slapped around in 9 and some 8's, meanwhile, my 609 prot pally clears 8's just fine and has a completely manageable struggle in 9 (unless it's mists or SV. Oof.) It feels like there's going to be a huge performance gap between pally and the other two as I keep getting ilvl.

[@metsfan1932]

@@killstardostudios5444 You most definitely should not feel like you're getting slapped around on a prot warrior. I will say though - if you ever let shield block fall off for any reason, get ready to get absolutely destroyed instantly. You have to keep 95+% uptime on SB, at least 85% uptime on ignore pain, and you'll be fine.

[@Xanthem420promotes]

I run 10-12 keys with my main BDK @ 624 Ilvl and I keep up with dps and often outheal my healer

[@metsfan1932]

@@Xanthem420promotes LOL I'm sorry "i outheal the healer as a BDK" is cringe. Healing is literally your mechanic for staying alive. If blocks counted as healing, I would also outheal the healer lol. As for "keeping up with DPS" you are playing with bad DPS because tanks simply cannot keep up with any half decent DPS, it's numerically impossible.

[@Xanthem420promotes]

@metsfan1932 lol don't be mad just cause I proved a point. Bye lol

[@stonedruid]

Good discussion, these posts brought up some points I never really though about but just accepted. Ever since they added crests it has always just been accepted that you would wait for hero pieces to spend your heroic crests, and mythic pieces to spend your mythic crests.; with the exception of getting the achievement to unlock crest conversion. As long as this system exists in its current state I dont see this ever changing. Maybe they need to rethink having an overlap in gear tracks, or crests in general.

[@ShawnSetGO]

@@stonedruid yeah it makes sense on paper but what seems to happen in practice is a lot of people trading up for crests for the chance at a single gear getting upgraded or just going crafting route to avoid it.

[@mattgunnoe]

One of the reasons thats its such a problem now is because to many healers pushed for people to be more relient on heals instead of themselves. And now blizz listened to them and kept the old desighns, so in return tanks just feel bad. I play all 6 tank specs to 2500+, but i will agree its ridiculous.

[@keats27]

I was bear tanking my way to 80 and having fun doing it, then recently, in the 70s, it turned into...constant panic use all cooldowns or die no matter who is healing.

[@FannerofFlames]

the moment you see 'prot pally' it becomes a skill issue not a gear issue. prot paladin is bloody brick wall if you play semi decently, and can do 12s at like sub 600 ilevel. there's a reason it's meta tank and representation is so overwhelming - because it just is that damn strong. do you need to rotate cooldowns? yes. will you die if all you have is consecrate and shield of the righteous? yes. are you bad if you die? also yes. cause we have a million and one different cooldowns we can take to survive every situation, whilst doing topnotch damage. bubble, guardian, ardent, eye of tyr, lay on hands, MOG - all are fairly low CD except for guardian, and all are affected by CDR except for eye of tyr. in the end it's a git gud - don't blame ilevel for being bad.

[@highbred]

I would love to see a video of 600 iLvl doing a 12. Upload it and show us how good you are, or forever stop saying stupid shit.

[@MattG5050]

I guess i don't play it well because I feel like prot pallys are not a brick wall at all. More sturdy than monk? Yes, but still takes way too much damage even when defensives are rolling.

[@kagenaga]

@MattG5050 If you play it properly, prot pally is even sturdier than prot warrior.

[@djewynne9638]

Get In-N-Out Burger to sponsor you!!! That shirt PHRESH!!! Happy New Year!!!

[@voodoo1069]

One of the aspects of the corruption system I loved so much was doing some type of solo progression to customize and make my gear special to me. Sure no vendor was bad and vendor on a month+ rotation was lame but it felt really good grinding visions and then tricking out your new upgrades each month. I really wish we had more ways to make gear feel special to us and not special because it was rare or your vault was kind for the first time in 3 months. Maybe you get this as a crafter making your own gear but personally can't standard professions in wow as game play.

[@MattG5050]

And they just announced tankbusters will happen twice as often in S2!!! Shit is unbelievable. Been playing tank since BC and just let my sub go.

[@paso7943]

What are you talking about? the tank get one shut so fast that even his LayonHand doesn´t help him, and you saying that it is a healer issue? so everything is healer issue... and people wonder why no one bother healing.... For last 12 years my main has been healer. and I have stopped healing in TWW. why the hell should I pay blizz monthly money to get stressed out in return instead of fun? Is WOW a game for fun or is it a anger management therapy?

[@Theparadoxd7]

1000% this. And there change to make depletes stop after you've completed 12's just reinforces that whoever is in charge doesn't have a f**king clue what they are doing. All I've heard this season is healers (like myself) saying they are going to quit, I've never seen our guild recruit so many healers because they all keep dropping out of the game and I can't blame them, I'm on the edge myself of whether I want to go back next season with how shit the game is right now for healers and tanks.

[@MrDoctorDave]

He said the EDNA tank buster is on the healer to dispell the debuff, which provides 50% damage reduction buff.

[@KrohnosOW]

me watching this while in LFR queue (anniversary achieves) waiting for tanks

[@toba5878]

yeah e.d.n.a is often the healer - i saw quite some- do not even know the mechanic and dispelll instant when i was on a dps alt as a main healer - i also saw rly MANY protpala - using bubbel for the first buuster - not getting the debuff - so there is nothing to dispell - and die to the second one and flame - without understanding the mechanic xD do tanks feel a bit squishy atm? yeah - sure - but quite a bit of it is also lack of knowledge

[@Zartan11]

It isn't just tanks. I used to do M+ occasionally, with raids my main focus. In Dragonflight and TWW, it's become clear that it is impossible to progress in raids without also doing some M+ every week for gear upgrades. That would be ok, but M+ dungeons completely suck this season. They are way overtuned for average players, and for anyone still gearing up. As a 620+, I struggle in every role on M+7 and higher, and even M+5 is challenging without an excellent team. Casual players first entering M+ struggle even at +2. Considering that normal and heroic dungeons are a cakewalk, and even tier 8 delves are pretty easy, the dungeons are way out of balance with the rest of the game. If they weren't essential for crests and valorstones, I'd write them off entirely. There must be some amazing tech out there of which I'm unaware, because I'm regularly seeing players do 1 million plus dps in dungeons and raids where my best-geared characters are struggling to hit 700K. Blizzard's insistence on "balancing" for the top-tier players leave us slightly-above-average ones in the dust.

[@vixfwis]

I stopped playing tank this season and went healer. Still very easy to get into keys, but I don't have to deal with routing and trash breaking my face every pull

[@AmandaPelland]

Not even the tank isn't aware why he's getting one shot with E.D.N.A. and yup, it's the healer's job. All the healer needs to do is get the weak aura that tells you when to dispel during the E.D.N.A. fight. At the same time, how come Blizz doesn't provide the healer an ingame 'hello' pop up when to dispel. Most dps don't know the E.D.N.A. fight either, I'm the only one in most cases to get rid of those spikes the boss spawns. The other day pugged +11 SV and I was the only one doing all of the mechanics correctly. I main healer.

[@morningglory2129]

Idk i feel like afyer this many months people shoukd have learned a simple mechanuc like that already. Seriously i figured it out week 1.

[@FannerofFlames]

eh. tanks can survive up to 12 without healer dispel assistance on edna - as long as you have half a brain. i did SV on a 10 4 dps no healer and didn't even break a sweat lol.

[@MirishikiariYT]

@@FannerofFlames and it's people like you running no healers that got tanks nerfed in the first place.

[@shiha4life]

thats not treu for prot pala you should use devensive cd on every tankbuster and healer should dispell imediatly

[@havtor007]

@@FannerofFlames Cool for you a group of 25people doing this made it so prot paladin goes OOM this season.

[@corkscrew9041]

I don't tank anymore since the TWW changes. It's just not fun getting stomped or the dps not being able to kill anything. Everyone feels WEAK!

[@theheebs100]

tanks are taking all the heat, but dps players suck this expansion. In some degree of fairness, the amount of mechanics dps are being asked to deal with is too high, but sometimes the players also just have no fucking idea what to do. Tried to run mists last night. on the very first pull mage and hunter didnt get into close range. they both kept dying, respawning, and running in to die again. 14 deaths on the first pull. timing was already out of the question, but decided to stick with it. on mistcaller dps could just not burn the add. this was on +8

[@stevebonk8995]

I’m a healer main but tank occasionally but gave that up this xpac, it’s just not fun anymore for me. Healing is still stressful but still more fun than tanking to me atm.

[@Netherstrasz]

Yeah tanking has been a big problem since the changes for TWW. I agree damage needs to be spread out more in addition to just being reduced all around. The self healing nerfs also hurt. They need to really tune this right for season 2. Some of the mythic plus dungeons are going to be horrendous

[@wojciechpiosik302]

As a tank over 2.7k i have a burn out after 1 season i havent played wow 2 weeks already and when i see season 2 dungeons i dont even want to play season 2

[@k9tirion927]

You just hit the natural 12+ wall, many people are at 2,7k for that reason.

[@theheebs100]

i think the rookery and cinderbrew will be good. the rest of season 2 looks brutal.

[@trdraven]

I guess prot warriors must be gods because Im tanking 10s at 607 ilvl. The only time dmg intake seems too high is if i pull too much

[@Neverlucky_WoW]

This addon is really the worst, if you main role as tank. Less dmg on trinkets/cantrips. Low aggro, against hyper burst spike speccs. You must become more and more tanky, but you lose more and more dmg(=aggro). The next season will have less tanks, than this with these crappy t-sets on the tank role. Random procc to get a def cd. No tank wants a rnd def cd procc, you want to know, if you get it and when.

[@stonedruid]

I agree, and I would much rather focus on dps and threat management over defensive CD rotations, simply because the latter is just boring.

[@rockurox]

It's the hero gear. Champion to hero is small, hero to myth is just absurd. Dragonflight classic when

[@Aiecus-hs9tz]

I only play classes roles i can trio role with

[@normannseils3936]

From a Long time Tank Player I Think the Tank Balance is the least of m+ Problems. I hate to say it but if you as the tank are the one struggling to stay alive you are the problem. I play BDK, Druid, Warrior and recently pala and i tanked at least 11-12 on all on some to around 14. It always ends up that the group just falls over, not the tank (if you come prepared for tank busters)

[@Zer0talentWoW]

Soultion to all this get the cc wa that yells at you to use your cc and links up with the group leader so if all have the wa it wil sync up and you will never have a cast go off.

[@kennethmalafy8012]

The key thing to remember with tanks and high end game is that it is up to you to make it happen. That is why it is considered the top of the game. If blizz nerfed it for you because of complaints, it would no longer be the top of the top. It would be top * *nerfed . They don't need to fix it. People complete very high keys.......

[@sarmstrong5549]

So I hit ilvl 626 on my brewmaster monk. So, I run 8 and 9 keys. Going to try a 10 tonight. The video is correct in that if I do not blackout kick, purifying brew, and the celestial brew. Over and over, yes I'm going to die. Basically my build is keeping blackout brew on cooldown along with purifying brew. Overall it is still fun but everyone has to pull their weight. Bad heals, yes we gonna die. Bad DPS, yea, your gonna die. DPS pulling extra mobs, yea usually groups fail.

[@yannickwylenmann9860]

With that itemlevel you shoud be abel to do 10s even with a bad healer as a brewmaster. If your intresstet equinox has some great Videos on how to survive and do Damage evt.

[@sonakthehunter2841]

the first comment about ":cant trust LoH during tank busters" is just a bad tank. a tank buster needs DR, not a heal after lmaooo

[@isabellavantichel4459]

Blood DK here, I've been enjoying TWW a lot so far but dps as blood has been kind of tricky lately

[@Saffron-xx]

The rng for gear has been abysmal, with farming I still can't get Spymasters even at hero track and it's not bis it's required. You need to be able to turn crests into either a re-roll or just be able to outright buy the gear you need with them. 500+ guilded crests and can't do anything with them. Dumb.

[@robertwagner9578]

Honestly yeah the damage is high. I tank as main but with a good healer im ok...but still at the edge of seat as i know too much and im dead. Just had a rouge pull a bunch almost died but healer was amazing.

[@christianchamp2002]

As a dedicated healer for over 18 years, tanks aren't struggling as much until they de, cded to pull 5-6 mobs in fort week not giving a single shit or fucks.

[@rickytv9738]

On 10 every week is fort week

[@War_Numen]

I got KSH on Warr, DK, Druid, DH and paladin tanks this season (no hate on monks, I only have so much time) and I probably would have stopped without my friend healing me along the way, just having a direct line and being able to say "I don't have a CD for this massive damage incoming" when you mess up is massive. The stress levels this season have been god awful, it was way worse at the beginning (reminds me of S1 of shadowlands before i quit) but towards season end I'm well adjusted to it. Me being adjusted to the season tanking difficulty is not me saying I like it. I loved season 3 of dragonflight when my entire team could die and i'd have to solo a boss and we'd still time the key, season 3 of dragonflight are halcyon days. One of the only good thing about season 1 of TWW is that it forces you to be a good tank. Mediocrity will barely by tolerated. The biggest complaint I truly have is the inequity of stress, good tanks and healers can now bear the brunt of responsibility in dungeons and I can already hear the good DPS complaining about how their tanks or healers never interrupt but as a tank and healer who account for 75%+(usually more me but healer still does a larger amount than the dps) of the interrupts in a key, i can tell you that the weight of responsibility is broken. A good tank and good healer can carry mediocre DPS (interrupts aren't on the GCD, not using it just makes you a bad DPS, cope more).

[@DaveTheeMan-wj2nk]

Honestly I just started playing Bear druid. For me personally they are so unbelievably tanky that it's almost hilarious. It feels way tankier than even Pratt Warrior. I have a defensive for every single pool and I'm basically invincible hell I don't even need to use my friend's regeneration.

[@stakkadakka3427]

The changes they made with 11.0.7 work fine, 60 for crafted is great. The new ring buffs are great. The problem is them taking so long to change things and honestly I think they always take time to improce numbers because they want people to sub for longer. Classic Blizzard.

[@juliannorton100]

Very simple - survivability should not be a stat obtained in a game. A tank class should be able to survive because of the mechanics of the class. "How do you compare progression, then?" by switching the idea that tanks need to build "tank stats" and instead make them a less-capable DPSer that has tanking abilities. They will still be *absolutely* necessary, but their damage becomes a much more important aspect. Idk... I feel like that would work great, at least.

[@metsfan1932]

That's crazy. Survivability should 100% be a tank priority. However, to me the issue is that trash damage is just out of control. Bosses feel like a vacation to me compare to trash. On trash packs I feel like I'm constantly fighting for my life, while at the same time feeling like if I dont pull big enough, someone may just leave the party because they might suspect we aren't on track to make the timer even though we have 31 minutes left. Trash needs to be significantly toned down, especially melee white hits, with more of a focus on specific tank busters like on bosses.

[@benjaminlear1619]

A shame that I wasn't able to play this season due to Work. 😔. It sounds like I would've enjoyed this season.

[@cristisibiseni]

i dunno mon... i'm 2600 score - prot warr and i feel like a god at 628 ilvl in them +10. my bear is 622 and just completed a 3rd +10. prot pala has a +10 key after a ++8 at 620 ilvl...i'll try that key this reset with the emisary - bdk veng and my brewmasta are at 618-620ish also but i havent pushed +10 on them yet - only +8 once per week... i'm only pugging and i hav no crafted piece on any of my tanks. i join a group - we pew pew the place and everyone is happy ^^ - but i'm a tank for a long time now...that for sure helps with all the negatives of this crazy season. my main issue is the 6/6 upgrade crap. i will NOT max out any toon this season; and the recast after a stun/cc - darn that is annoying.

[@rerere1569]

I started playing this season and went tanking. I'm also having a lot of fun on my prot paladin, I don't know how it was in previous seasons but this one is fun for sure. I'm not pushing very hard, but I timed a couple of 12s already That being said, I still wish some of the trash didn't have that many tankbusters that often. Sometimes it just feels unfair. Also tank balance seems a bit off right now, I tried a couple of other tank specs but it's just day and night difference with prot paladin. Being able to interrupt anything, while having great defensives, while also producing insane amounts of damage in aoe, while also being able to offheal and help your allies is just unmatched Overall I wouldn't mind if they made damage less spikier even if it means I'm gonna deal less damage

[@khaosgaming6826]

calling it now: next season will be as bad if not worse in EVERY aspect. Blizz has FULLY stopped listening to the player base and returned to catering the top 3%. Personal theory is: it's Chris Metzen.

[@MrBunnybusiness]

Well yes, I called this season being shit before season start. Is blizz catering to top 3%...I wish. You are not in the top 1% you claim they are "playing" to. They let us not brick pur 12s. Think about how much time you spent on your keys, then imagine 5 ppl stopping lives 10 hours a week...I think we earned a break. One wrong breath and our key bricks. The lower keys aren't that punishing. Do delves:) run with friends!!! Yeah man, blizz not playing to top 1% or 3%. If someone we would have stops back so we can go back to pulling boss to boss routes when they allow for it. The fact that they continue to do this is proof the bottom 99% are catered to. Pugs keys are one pack at a time....what else do you possibly need to win while taking the fun out of the game for the rest of us...

[@khaosgaming6826]

well it seems for whatever reason my reply did not post... but basically, I never clwimed to be in the top 3% as you say I did, you are, and you are complaining about "stopping 5 lives for 10hrs". I WORK 12-16hrs a day, when I finally get my 1-2 hrs to play, I put in the time to form the group, make the sttempt snd for ehatever reason it fails, now I should have to go *BACK* to a lower one that I already proved I can not just complete but time? Now explain to me why my time is worth less then those 3% being given the feature thst the bulk of the playerbase has been BEGGING for for years? hm? I already did my 7s,8s, and 9s and all the way through several 12s, I did my bit. That feature finally being added but ONLY for the top players who will barely, if at all notice it, is not just a disrespect of my limited time but an insult. As for other features catering, literally every change they made, more crests? won't notice it till 12+, lower mythic gear achievment? just so the top players don't need to take 5 sec to swap a couple crafted items out to trigger it. I would implore you to find a feature that actually caters to the playerbase in this season. So if you think you earned a break, do lower keys, you know as well as I do that key depletion needs removed for everyone. And I would aso the same thing you did in your final line, what else could you as the 3% you perport to be, want to get while taking the fun out of it for the rest of us?

[@GrayWolfHonor]

I actually feel fine as Paladin tank 😅

[@Monstein]

Why do all these videos about tank issues feel like so many tanks want high damage, strong self heals, and defensives? I know most are not wanting it to the level to feel like a dps or the healer just how it sounds.

[@Theparadoxd7]

Because they need something to make it fun or interesting. It's the least played role for a reason. Let's put it another way, how would you tempt a dps to play a tank when the healer is mainly supposed to keep them alive and the dps is terrible?

[@sharkstaint1373]

to be fair the damage is a good balance for interactions , just add good defensive cds for tanks , some tanks get bombed outside of big cds , they need to give them more dr spells , per example vdh , outside of his meta , he take so much damage , which is very stressful , and that's not a fun gameplay , same goes for blood dk , blood dks are always the paper tank the higher the key goes , sure they that take damage and heal it back , but on some high keys he need like at least a 30% dr on a spell with two charges that cost no resource to survive , same goes for bear , he got crazy physical damage sustain but his magic damage reduction is non existent , instead of nerfing the dungeons , just give lacking tanks dr cds , imagine prot paladin have ardent on like a 40s cd , wings 1.20 min cd , ancient king on a 2min cd , bubble 1.5 min cd , lay on hands with the armor talent 3 min cd , block spells to 100% with wog talent , have a 3.5 min cd magical damage immunity , like how is this fair compared to some other tanks.

[@ShawnSetGO]

@@sharkstaint1373 all of the CDs jeez it's jarring

[@TEveningsong]

BDK Main, we have plenty of Defensive Utility available to us - but not if you follow WH/IV/Acherus build guides, the ones that tell you to take all offensive talents and ignore many of the best defensive ones. Watch / listen to players like SSBane, Kyrasis, Yoda, and you'll see that many of them are running Rune Tap and Umbilicus Eternus (which WH/IV/Acherus recommend not taking because "it's overly defensive and too much of a Damage Loss), and might take some of the more defensive DK Class Tree talents like Blood Draw (gives a 2min ICD -10% damage reduc if you go below 30% HP) and Runic Protection (gives you 6% increased armor and reduces your chance to be hit by criticals by -3%) or not take Suppression and path thru Asphyxiate (extra single-target CC) to path thru Blood Scent (+3% Leech, making all the damage you do heal you) to get to your capstones. You'll still have butt-pucker moments for sure, but there's a lot you can do. The tradeoff is that your DPS overall drops (since you're taking UE instead of Bloodshot), and will have to sacrifice other DPS options to get Rune Tap and/or path thru Asphyx+Blood Scent instead of just going down thru Suppression (costs you 1 extra point to path), but I've found that the amount of DPS I lose isn't as much as you'd think because I can pull a little bit bigger and a bit faster having the extra defensive options in my Talents, which means that I'm getting more damage packets out to more targets in less time. I also run Frontline Potions for my Combat Potion b/c they give +Armor and +% HP for a few seconds that can get additional stacks as you take hits and extend the duration when I've got a larger pull that I want to make happen.

[@WeKnowNothing]

If bro can't tank a +9 with meta tank, maybe tanking is not for bro. Joke aside, this season is more of a group thing. If the group doesn't interrupt, CC and AOE CC, the difficulty of the key scales a lot regardless of how much DPS they do. I have 3 tanks, and in anything bellow an 11 feels the same regardless of the tank or healer you bring.

[@MattG5050]

This has been a serious problem for me. DPS are not interrupting, they're not using personal defensives, they're not watching their footing and puling extra shit, and healers are struggling to keep up. But these bad dps will flame the tank super fast for problems they themselves are creating.

[@SymplyOP]

don’t fix what isn’t broken, and no this isn’t from DF where tanks were broken. They tried fixing tanks ages ago when there wasn’t anything wrong with them. The playerbase is also to blame for tanking being a crap role to play. No one talks about how shit the WoW playerbase actually is towards others. I stopped tanking and healing because of the playerbase. It’s really a multitude of problems, playerbase, over-reliance on addons, blizzard upping the difficulties, scaling issues. The WoW playerbase is the worst I have ever seen in how they treat others because they treat everything as a stupid competition with others.

[@Fallingmedic]

+12 and above should drop myth track.

[@Theparadoxd7]

Take that idea and shove it where the sun don't shine.

[@Fallingmedic]

@ why do you say that? I could see it possibly breaking race to world first a bit but other than that 🤷🏽‍♂️

[@Theparadoxd7]

@@Fallingmedic because it's fucking stupid. People are already annoyed af that they can't get myth track gear and you want to make 12's become a "must" for any CE guild that you will have to farm + you'll have every shitter under the sun trying to get 12's done as they will see it as gear they should be "entitled to". You've created a great way to make lots of players quit the game on mass, so thankfully they aren't stupid enough to do what you're asking.

[@dojawdwajdowa]

Maybe get some good gear? 610 is nothing. I'm 631 and DK blood is breeze in the wind on 10+

[@josematos7043]

dudes,the solution is easy,reduce drastlequly the damg and increce the survivel of the tanks.....dane fixe,and evribady is happy.......but if for some reson you think your damg is to low as a tank(ani off the 6)well plaing as a tank is not for you

[@dutyofcall7659]

Finally reached the 0.1& cut off (3.354 rio) with my paladin tank and let me tell you M+ is not fun to tank! Everything one shots you if you don't have cd's up, one missing kick or wrong stun and the run is over... Not to mention the toxic ppl. that blame everything on you all the time.

[@vjr6939]

M+ sadly suck this xpac, tanking is the worst its ever been and it is PROHIBITIVE to new players. Terrible direction, no other way to put it

[@MrHuntervad]

Taking problem is all about a healer problem, yet again, lol. They nerfed tanks, to make healers more viable, now we are at square 1 again, but if they make tanks strong again, what to do about healers?

[@ShawnSetGO]

I think you're missing a crucial component which is dungeon design

[@FannerofFlames]

also, dude - warrior tank damage? bad? have you SEEN stormthane in keys? you're spamming one button and doing close to dps damage in packs. ST is not the best, yes. but it's hardly BAD. play a BDK or guardian and then you'll see bad damage. pwarr is solidly middle of the pack damage wise.

[@Xanthem420promotes]

I run 10-12 keys with my main BDK @ 624 Ilvl and I keep up with dps and often outheal my healer.... what BDK's are you running with??

[@IJKez]

ilvl 600 running 9s? Of course he’s going to struggle. He’s not ready for it.

[@cosmicz3ro]

Meanwhile we tanked +10 in ilvl 600-605 at season start. For a PuG? Sure. For static groups is more than fine, some tanks (ppal) not included.

[@Duck4Evers]

I know it's blasphemy and heresy to even suggest this but to homogenize tanks and healer specs so that regardless of what you choose in these roles you NEVER feel weak especially from the community. Imagine a world where you logged on to Archon, UGG or wowhead or dare I say KZbin and you saw a tank/healer tier list and they were ALL META. OH NO!!!! If Blizzard really wanted to end tank and healer drought in M+ LFG this IMHO would be a great start.

[@Theparadoxd7]

Terrible idea. That's like saying "well why doesn't the world just wake up tomorrow and have world peace". They've been trying to balance healers based off tier lists and that's what's got them in this mess. They go "oh this class is too strong" and nerf the shit out of it -like resto shaman losing AG getting no compensation for it and then next patch will have dungeons that suck for them and they are going into it nerfed....all because of tier lists. Even though Rshaman isn't the most meta healing class. Every time this happens. If they wanted to get people back playing tank/healer they have to make them FUN again. Nobody likes this bullshit spike meta they seem insistant on increasing over and over again. It's been tried and it's failed Blizzard, go back to how it used to be.

[@isaaclalnunzira6981]

I left the game because of this ass expansion and went back to just grinding CS , and im glad i did

[@tony9099]

Ive said it millions of times but complaining that its too hard is dumb asf. Its suppose to be hard thats the point if low key people complaining that its too hard then get better. If higher key players say its too hard, well guess what, THATS THE POINT

[@MirishikiariYT]

i bet money you don't tank or heal in M+, just off your comment i can tell you are a dps andy only and it really really shows

[@ShawnSetGO]

Something can be difficult that's not the problem it's about that difficulty being fair and reasonable

[@tony9099]

@lil_unholy7862 i play it all u dont know anything

[@MirishikiariYT]

@ I know more then you if you don’t think the tank nerfs where a good thing idiot. You are so clueless it’s honestly not even funny

[@VizerPS]

i agree. in seasons 3 and 4 of dragonflight tanking m+ felt like a joke. they could never die to anything. tanks had such hubris that they would deplete keys by doing bad pulls that would kill everyone but them, more than once, until the tank solod enough of the pack tanks having a fear of death now is good. they're playing the same game as everyone else. if they quit, all the better for me, i'll happily push on my tank instead of healer

[@The00airknight]

I left pretty quick. Played tank most of wow. Came back for war within. Didn't like culture. Kept playing. Not sure I liked delvs. Did lvl 8 when that's highest... wanted to quit. Did heroics and mythics. Did fine. Got told to learn pull skips. (Still opening week). Unsubbed/10

[@llhandj1654]

I have Used Hekili to level Prot Warrior, Prot Pally and VDH and I'm doing 10s simply at starting at 623. Learning how to start a fight is most the battle.

[@boneheded2819]

People complain when it's to easy and complain when its to hard.

[@metsfan1932]

I dont remember anyone complaining that tanking was too easy in Dragonflight.

[@boneheded2819]

@@metsfan1932 you're right. It was actually the healers complaining they had nothing to do.

[@Uko980]

Just based on the number of runs done were about even with season 4 the dead part of last expansion at the start of TWW when its supposed to be the biggest number of runs an expansion. It only gets worse from here if they don't fix tanks

[@morningglory2129]

​@@metsfan1932i quit tanking in df because it was soo braindead boring. Legit became the easiest role in df. Oh and the raids man the first 2 raids were the most boring things i have ever tanked. The difference of a good and bad tank in df was if they had a good route annnd thats about it. If they died at all then they were a horrible player.

[@DaveTheeMan-wj2nk]

​@@boneheded2819 That's nonsense healers certainly still had a lot to do. If you go watch a mythic dungeon high key and dragonflight or prior you'll see that they were still healing all of the time. Many people were still getting near one shot did. Healers had plenty to do

[@Leththeloen]

well healers are getting what they wanted. so you can blame healers :p every healer complained about tanks not needing healing and now they complain they take to much.

[@flashyhooves1710]

I honestly know no healer who ever complained about also needing to babysit the tank next to the damage the rest of the group already took.

[@mmdhsnloo5864]

blizz should make tanks independent again but they should do lower damage overall thats what tank means in most games. i do play tank in m+ and it too much work to do and also not to die at same time. and all because some moron watches youtube and see some of world best players dont bring healer because they know they can do without a healer. and moron goes on a rampage that tanks are way too tanky that they dont need healers. no moron thats because they know what they are doing and dps players dont need healer ah fuck i am so pissed

[@gehtkeinenwasan8087]

like always itemlvl is king you can Easy get 620 with almost no investment...

[@ShawnSetGO]

Yeah I've been in a number of delve groups with 620 ilvl

[@GCDChronicles]

The only real problem with gearing as it now, especially with Bullions coming towards the end of next season to get you those Raid trinkets, is that people are playing World of Warcraft, expecting it to be like League of Legends. You're either pushing for literal Rank 1 or you're not. If you are, you are probably raiding Mythic, so you will get access to the vast majority of items you need. If you don't have the time to raid Mythic for the gear you need, then you definitely don't have the time to push for Rank 1, so the whole thing is moot. If you aren't pushing for Rank 1, especially if you're pugging your M+ runs, then none of this matters, you're not competing against other people, you're competing against yourself. And if you're a DPS who pugs and can't get into keys because they don't have the gear from Mythic Raid or whatever... Do the thing almost nobody's willing to actually do, reroll to tank/healer or start networking. Which brings us to the last misconception, where people who don't have a lot of time to play say that they can't network because they don't have time. These people should be the ones who're networking the most. If they have 4 hours/week to play, they need a much bigger friend list than someone who can play every evening for 4 hours if their goal is to spend the least amount of time looking for people and doing dungeons instead. To illustrate, even if you can play 4 hours/week, if you have 7 tanks, 10 healers and 35 DPS who all enjoy playing with you in your friends list, chances are that you might get some kind of group together for those 4 hours as long as you give people enough notice beforehand.

[@MrShivshank]

the old talent system had more real choices than the trees have now.

[@nickmoro1908]

Old talent system is hot garbage in a rpg game. This one is way better and caratteristic

[@MrShivshank]

@nickmoro1908 there's not actually more choice though there's just more things to click.

[@kevinbrink9382]

HOT TAKE INC: I have been playing G Druid and Brewmaster as alt classes to see if all of the tanks I am running with are just bad, or if there is actually something wrong with the current balancing for tanks. Guess what I’ve realized? 90% of the time, it is just bad tanks. The entire logic here is that tanks should NOT be able to live without mitigation. End of story. Tanks are not gods and should not be able to pull packs without having any mitigation running. Nearly every tank spec has an active mitigation they can use pre-pull, and from there you have to fluidly pull and keep the in-combat mitigation up. I don’t give a single f*k about a tanks dmg. Too many tanks out here using Hekili to max their dmg or some form of rotation helper and have 0 understanding of their mitigation, or the dungeons requirements. This argument is stale. I refuse to play this game if we go back to the VDH gods of S3 and S4 DF. Tanks have 2 primary jobs. Live, and direct. Tank damage will come once maintaining mitigation is understood. I blame Blizzard for making tanking WAY too easy through DF and correcting to the right path through the guise of “wanting healers to do more”. Yes, let’s blame healers when tanks f*k up and drop their mitigation.

[@Theparadoxd7]

While not wrong they need to make tanks more fun, that's the main reason nobody wants to play them. Adding more damage to them hell even making them do near dps levels of damage, I am 100% okay with as a healer if it keeps people playing them. Right now we need more of them, simple as.

[@tyleronfire3126]

This is also the guy that complains the tank don't run the way he want xD he acting like the tanks daddy

[@solasslym3]

As someone who's tanked literally since vanilla, what's "wrong" is they brought tanks back down into something resembling sanity. And I say resembling because they are still overwhelmingly too tough compared to everyone else and their relative contributions, but it's not DF lunacy.

[@insertnamehere4419]

Tanks are tough? say it isnt so, that needs to be fixed.

[@solasslym3]

@@insertnamehere4419 Tanks are still disproportionately too tough, at least if we compare to old WoW standards... but I don't realistically see them going back to that.

[@insertnamehere4419]

@@solasslym3 You realize that's the role they fill, right? But what is "old" WoW?

[@Caligulove]

The idea of infinitely scaling dungeons was setting themselves up to fail to begin with. Add a timer? Now you have incentivized players to only take the meta specs and people who already have cleared that key level. Now they've made the rewards shitty. They basically did everything wrong.

[@k9tirion927]

This is just a lot more about the skill gap widening then it is about tanks having real survivability problems. New and bad tanks cry that they get smacked around in 10+ keys with a +136% modifier despite being overgeared at 615+ ilvl. Meanwhile every tank spec in the game has players running 15+ keys and even higher with a +280% (MORE THAN DOUBLE OF 10s!) modifier escalating upwards. it's a skill issue in a endless scaling system, if you made tanks 15% more survivable tomorrow you will still find a ton of players not being able to do 10s and still crying about it.

[@havtor007]

No it really is not even the literal world first tank complains about this topic. You do not feel tanky when you NEED defensive cooldown for literally everything in the game that hits you, you are then just a dps with defensive cooldowns used. Your take is directly why there is less tanks around. What they did do was increase the skill floor and lowering the skill ceiling

[@k9tirion927]

@@havtor007 How is a larger importance on requiring to cycle and manage your own and outside cooldowns constantly through a dungeon to not die lowering the skill ceiling? In comparison late season DF tanking was just mind drooling with how invincible tanks where over most key ranges. What high end tanks complain about is the requirement of augmentation and bad balancing of the tank specs, not that it's not liveable, especially in pisslow 10 keys.

[@havtor007]

@@k9tirion927 Oh yeah there is zero chance you play a tank i see ok makes sense why you do not even know basic things then that is ok but it also means you do not understand why tanking right now feels bad to do. I guess you do not want to actual listen to what the people are saying oh well that is on you for not understanding what they say as you do not understand that you can complain about that for you and still complain about how the tanking feels. But let me ask you this where there more tanks in DF then now?

[@k9tirion927]

@@havtor007 Ad hominem does never look good for your argument my friend but also doesn't make sense here, I did not put any judgement over the fact that the changes in TWW made tanking more difficult and punishing, I'm pointing out that there is a cognitive dissonance in the community because we KNOW what is technically possible with each tank spec yet people have problems in 10s and below and complain in droves despite being naturally overgeared so late in the season. Of course there where more tanks in mid-late DF because it was braindead easy to play to fill your vault.

[@havtor007]

@k9tirion927 it is not an ad hominin it is the truth. (And you have shown it by not understanding) You need to play tank to understand why the season is just bad for tanks. The thing you do not understand is that the game feels bad for tanks right now what is technically possible is irrelevant when the game is just bad. When you play a tank you play it because you are this thing called tanky. How the game is right now you do not feel tanky at all you feel squishy as a tank. You do not feel in control of your destiny at all. The gameplay of playing a tank char in TWW is BAD do you understand this? What is technically possible is for all dps specs doing about 1-3 key level lower then the absolute max yet Meta is a massive deal for dps players. The technical worst healer spec is within 1-3 keys of the best healer spec yet Meta is a thing. I assume your whole group is always none Meta specs as you can do the content on those characters. You keep saying it was braindead easy why the ad homnin attacks on all tank players? You are showing how ignorant you are to the role here! You are saying something based on what you have heard without knowing how it is to play.

[@brettgilmore9917]

Easy solution. Stop supporting, and participating in this trash mythic+ garbage. Most ass backwards feature of any MMO ive ever played.

[@g.g.2359]

Tanks / healers are stone age design in general. Without dedicated tanks / healers needed for mechanics there will be 0 queues for pvp /pve , easier M+ and Raids group finding. Ofc for this to happen the whole game and all classes needs redesign, all classes can be dps and have some support tools and bosses/npc's mechanics have to be hard and engaging where ppl rotate cd's and cc's but no tanking needed. I understand some ppl just want to stand and PEW PEW so they want their tanks so they can put 1 finger in their nose, but its dumb and had to go long time ago. Same goes for dedicated healing in pvp... the single queue killer of wow pvp atm.

[@SillyOne90]

100% correct, which is why I am no longer playing. Could care less about what they fix...its been broke to long. Mythic + is trash and has ruined the game.

[@ryangardner7709]

Dead game