Response to "Why is Modern Music so Awful' by Thoughty2 - The Decline of the Pop Song

[@marthur1971]

If timbre falls in a forrest and no one is there to hear it, does it make overtones?

[@izvarzone]

Yes

[@lanni5]

No

[@alexismiller2349]

This comment is so good

[@camw621]

You sick bastard, that was hilarious.

[@ThomDeWit]

This is perfect

[@TheSnowLeopard]

One of the key flaws of the database is survivourship bias. Nobody remembers the throwaway timber that was cut down 50 years ago, we only remember the ones made into fine pieces of furniture.

[@r.v.datmir992]

Survivourship bias explains it only up a particular point. Pop music is prone to be dumped in the parents' basement for future deportation to the Goodwill when its fans grow up a bit, or when the teen sensation reaches age eighteen, half the fans lose interest because they grew up, and the remainder lose interest because the teen sensation lost her appeal when she turned eighteen, and those more mature fans are off to the next jailbait sensation.

[@r.v.datmir992]

@flmvdvsrg What is Veritasium?

[@oali2478]

@@r.v.datmir992 a youtube channel, very educational one at that.

[@foljs5858]

Actually that's a non-issue, because we can just stick to examining the Top-100 in each era, and we'd still get the same results...

[@harrylane4]

@@foljs5858 somebody forgot when every 50's rock song used the same 4 chords and was written cynically for the sole purpose of topping the charts 🤔🤔🤔

[@kevinevano4497]

Peasants: Listen to AWFUL modern day music Me, an intellectual: Listens to woodcuting noise with maximum TUM BRAH

[@sorrychangedmyusername3594]

Lumberjacks would be music connoissuers.

[@jco_sfm]

Doom 2016 soundtrack

[@iveseenyourface5404]

Tom bruh

[@iveseenyourface5404]

Fuck someone said that already

[@elvellarambles9151]

killing TIMBER to get more TOMBRUH

[@nathanh9726]

Love the music is getting louder stuff as if Tchaikovsky wasn't out here using cannons as instruments

[@magnifichades9710]

Have people ever listened to a symphonic orchestra live? It can get INCREDIBLY loud especially when brass is involved.

[@you_tubeslonelyheartsclubband]

Another genre is Jazz. The point was to get an *EXPLOSIVE* sound, especially Big Band jazz, and even genres like Bebop.

[@thenamesianna]

I'm sorry but using cannons as insturments is one of the most Russian things to do

[@delta3244]

Or that one piece of orchestral music with the notation "ffff _(louder than possible, substitute_ [a different kind of percussion] _if needed)."_

[@jasonreed7522]

Also our recording technology has improved alot over time, old music has lots of "croning" because that's what was best picked up by the recordings. (Today a diaphragm moves a magnet in a coil and we amplify the induced current, at some points in the past we engraved discs using only the power in the sound itself which obviously muffles it and may not even pick up softer tones.) The evolution of audio recording tech and its impact on music is facinating,and today should include all of the computer generated sounds that would otherwise be impossible. (I can drive basically any voltage wave that is real world possible to a speaker and it produces a sound, not necessarily an enjoyable one but it means that maximum freedom of expression is theoretically possible due to the lack of technical limits.)

[@beanbeater]

You're just his evil cousin Thoughty1.

[@killermetalwolf2843]

I believe you mean _41_

[@tmsgaming5998]

thoughty2 is a unoriginal dumbass this guy is pretty cool

[@shifanahmed3990]

@@tmsgaming5998 exactly, thoughty2 is unoriginal cuz he's the second

[@smakkacowtherealone]

this

[@oumardiop1]

@@shifanahmed3990 actually hes the forty second

[@Gnurklesquimp]

My IQ is 600, I only listen to pure white noise.

[@maxdavison914]

My IQ is 700, I infer the implied white noise from silence.

[@j.c.527]

My IQ is 650, I only listen to pure pink noise.

[@NeuronalAxon]

Instructions unclear - listened to brown noise, and now have a prolapsed anus.

[@andreapiseri8521]

@@maxdavison914 my IQ is 1000, I only listen to frequencies that are whole multiples of the planet's orbits.

[@johnnyboy1232]

My IQ is 1001 I listen to Shane Dawson.

[@janbelcher1896]

I was born in the wrong generation. I only listen to Neolithic Rock Smashing

[@Tantacrul]

I prefer the early stuff, before they figured out how to make rock hammers out of harder rocks.

[@etooamill9528]

I prefere water splashing as it has more timber in it

[@darthplagueis13]

It all went south once they stopped smashing bones against trees if you ask me....

[@alpacamaster5992]

Soon modern pop will return there.

[@LukusCannon]

In as much as it inspired the Neolites, I only hope we can one day recapture the sonic evanescence of the Moon exploding from the Earth

[@computername]

His videos are highly agreeable for many because they play on some very fundamental patterns of human perception: * The future is doomed * Everything was better in the past * Everything is under control by some sort of Elite (Only two guys making ALL songs) for the boomer audience, there is also a bonus pattern: * _OUR_ culture is in fact better than _THEIR_ culture A lot of people seem to live by these paradigms and everything that seems to fit the narrative gets logged with a "Ha, I knew it!". It's a self fulfilling prophecy as people basically want to see everything as evidence of their already established patterns. We all do it. But some people almost indulge in it. Apart from that, all these edgy LED-Zeppelin snobs will still secretly be vibin' to Lady Gaga in the car..

[@ligmaballs2022]

I'm 19 years old and I DEFINITELY do not vibe to Lady Gaga. Besides, I don't have a car so jokes on you

[@Haispawner]

@@ligmaballs2022 Edgy contrarian zoomers rise up!

[@ligmaballs2022]

@@Haispawner *napalm death enters*

[@Haispawner]

@@ligmaballs2022 Oh hell yeah, get some Scythelord in there too. Kind of obscure old-style death/thrash fusion thingy made by Vinesauce Joel.

[@user-gu9yq5sj7c]

There's lots of young people complaining about the present too. Not just boomers. Being a doomer or just blaming other groups isn't helpful. The future is what you make it.

[@DSchana6]

"So what's happened here, is that Aaron's read an article" idk why but I died at this phrase.

[@fulldisclosureiamamonster2786]

*Arran

[@oops3266]

@@fulldisclosureiamamonster2786 Aaron deserves a misspelled name.

[@swinerazor4075]

Then how can you comment if you're already dead?

[@captainsunburn8510]

@@swinerazor4075 wow you are funny

[@fulldisclosureiamamonster2786]

@@oops3266 Okay coming back to this video a year later, I just realized his name wasn't actually Aaron and it wasn't just an extended joke that everyone was playing along with when people are saying his name was spelled Arran. My mind is disintegrated.

[@MarkALong64]

The vast majority of modern authors use word processors. That is why all books are practically identical.

[@graealex]

Even worse, many of them use very similar words, and certainly lack the usage of the word "timber".

[@robopope7584]

I’ve noticed there is a massive use of a certain word: “the”. It’s frankly worrying to see how often such an unnecessary word is used in literature that is, otherwise, original.

[@AndrewYac]

@@graealex "Tom bruh"

[@misiekt.1859]

Yeah, It's been all downhill ever since Gutenberg ;)

[@arkanon8661]

@@robopope7584 yeah. and also the word "a"?? like what is the point in putting single letter before nouns?

[@TazzeOptical]

The cheese melts in the microwave The music melts in Sibelius The timber melts in Thoughty2

[@Zadamanim]

I've heard this phrasing before, what is it referencing?

[@TazzeOptical]

@@Zadamanim kzbin.info/www/bejne/mnzbYqqkjaifmas

[@Zadamanim]

@@TazzeOptical Oh yeaaaah i knew i had heard it before lol

[@DerekPower]

Timber gone. Sibelius crashed.

[@diddy_dante]

It burns

[@davidreichert9392]

They'll ask how we got from Bob Dylan to Britney Speers, how we got from Led Zeppelin to Lady Gaga, but they don't seem to ask how we got from The Archies to Radiohead.

[@averagecoasterenjoyer]

Or Kurtis Blow to Kendrick Lamar

[@zprouk3091]

Also: people will cite Bob Dylan as a paragon of excellence and then go "nowadays people need autotune, no one can sing anymore" without the smallest hint of irony I'm not saying I don't like him, I'm just saying he was in the right place at the right time with the right level of maleness, whiteness and eloquence

[@cheopys]

People told me that Radiohead was the best of current rock. So I played a few of their albums. I didn't hear anything I cared if I ever heard again. Meh,

[@cheopys]

Not bad, but not compelling, maybe I’m too old for rock but I still listen to ELP an Yes and is isn’t nostalgia or the music of my youth.

[@sackydzNG]

@cheopys Radiohead isn't that accessible on first listen (bet that's not the first time you've heard this sentiment lol) but once you've listened to their albums a few times, they really do click hard. Kid A and In Rainbows are genuinely brilliant works of art. But we all have different tastes so yeah

[@JnK69]

It's shocking how much talent and musical prowess is hidden away in the rabbit holes of Spotify, KZbin and more. Making an informed decision as to whether or not modern music is any good based on what you find on radio, billboards and trending lists is like going to McDonald's for dinner and then complain that "fine dining" just isn't a thing anymore.

[@georgesracingcar7701]

I agree. Perhaps Thoughty2 should’ve put Athena adjective “Mainstream” in the title and every time they said the word “music” in the video

[@davidweihe6052]

Well, after COVID-19, "fine dining" isn't a thing, and won't be for a couple years, unless Biden makes the Business Dining Expense Deduction (upper casing not guaranteed) what it was back in the 1960s, when Account Executives could dine on steak while their families lived on macaroni & cheese.

[@bredbandtva7177]

People should specifcy when they're talking about modern mainstream pop just to premptively brush off criticisms like this - but on the other hand it's obvious in the video what he's talking about and when people refer to music of different eras it's often the popular stuff, so ''you're saying MOST modern music is bad?'' is just being willfully ignorant to be perfectly honest.

[@matthewlachance3362]

He was obviously talking about the mainstream, holy fuck read between the lines

[@georgemckendrickbryce9863]

I totally agree with your comment/everyone's responses so far lol. The concern I think Thoughty2 is really trying to elaborate on is why are people choosing to settle for the convenience of dining at McDonalds vs. the luxury of fine dining. That really divides music listeners into at least two camps for me ...casual listeners and music enthusiasts. As a music enthusiast, MS music really grates my intellectual expectations/complex emotional needs. Can I reconcile these with MS music? Sometimes, but only when the music stands out far enough from the ocean of grey industrially produced songs pushed along the conveyor belt the industry calls the charts. When does music get an opportunity to stand out I ask ...I think the answer could be not often enough in comparison to previous decades. The diversity of MS music being published has definitely been constricted previously for other reasons (technology, the infancy of the music industry), though MS music of the 70's, 80's certainly appears to be diverse in comparison to the 60s, 2000's, 2010's. I think we're at a stage now where the collective message from the conversation is that we should expect a period where music is afforded an opportunity to breath again

[@lowenbad]

We live in an age where any artist can make an album in their bedroom and release it worldwide for free. If you can’t find good artistic musical expression in 2020, you are either a drone or you don’t know how to use the internet.

[@HyLion]

But-but... But the timbre!

[@alontal3883]

you're right but the video thoughty 2 made was about popular music, the stuff you hear in the radio and that the average person enjoys. There are some bedroom albums I love but can't play when I say "yo bruh pass the aux cord"

[@jackthorton10]

you know what, Brandon Swanson is making sense here.

[@melchizedekful]

jesus fucking christ thoughty2 talked about modern MAINSTREAM music and its decline. the more I read the comments the more I am convinced not only mainstream music shows serious decline along the years but cognitive abilities too.

[@JETZcorp]

One of the songs that briefly took over the Top-40 was a remix created by a teenager in Kazakhstan playing with his laptop while bored at the rail station he worked at. It attained about a thousand times more success than the pretty-terrible song his remix started with. Try making THAT happen in 1966! The song, btw, is called Roses (Imbanek Remix)

[@sudonim7552]

Timbre ❌ Timber ❌ Tom bruh ✔️

[@zzcolby27]

Mo Bamba ✔️

[@Hanfgurkenhasser]

English is great at butchering words from foreign languages. Especially French suffers. Or Latin..or indeed German as poor Mr. Schoenberg found out. So yeah, the og /tumbrə/ is how you would pronounce it - if your language gave a fuck.

[@illford]

@@Hanfgurkenhasser how to ruin a joke, no one asked. Your complaining about English so by that logic any divergent language is somewhat incorrect. Accents and difference in pronounciation exist. Its like how Americans pronounce things differently. Stop acting like some supreme language. You could say that fpr any language.

[@drewp.weiner5708]

@@Hanfgurkenhasser All languages butcher foreign words, it's not something exclusive to English. It's something done to help appropriate the foreign word into the phonology and morphology of the language. Should we go about saying Japanese doesn't give a fuck because they say 'skirt' like 'sukaato'?

[@d3nza482]

@@drewp.weiner5708 Oh, but English speakers (namely Americans) are EXPERTS at butchering words they appropriate. Japanese will create their own phonetic reading of a foreign word and construct a similar but very Japanese word out of it - Americans will take a foreign word, spell it identically and simply misread it in as ignorant a way as possible. And while "genr-agh" sounds simply as someone desperate to come off as sophisticated (kind of like using "kino" for art movies), "nitch" makes me want to go out of my way to find a really rusty knife to stab myself. But my favorites have got to be "quick-sot-tick" and "jew-ntah". For fuck's sake... It's Don Quee-hoe-tee not Don Quick-sot-tea. And turning that H into J (while still reading marijuana and San Juan properly) gives the idea of military rule a very inappropriate cheerful, jaunty, tone. Ah... The sight of colonels skipping and jumping across the hills merrily... picking flowers... executing suspected revolutionaries summarily.

[@thewhiterabbit8581]

"and computer software" This is a sentence made to appeal to boomers that haven't heard any new music since the death of jesus

[@Skrkro]

"The sine wave on an electronic synthesizer has no overtones, which makes it The Devil." i'm dead

[@plutosgardener2631]

God will only show his face to those who praise him with t o m b e r a

[@Bushwhacker-so4yk]

And here I thought the devil was a tritone.

[@bobbymiller7242]

It's funny because literally almost no one uses a plain sine wave. The entirety of FM synthesis, for example, is literally adding waves to get those overtones.

[@Skrkro]

@@bobbymiller7242 I love the plain sine wave, but only when it's at about 60 hz and 100+ dB. lol

[@SmashedHatProject]

Timbre is the ratio of meat to pasta in the sonic lasagne

[@BaeYeou]

I'm sorry, but the phrase "sonic lasagne" immediately brings the image of a sculpture of Sonic the Hedgehog made entirely with pasta and sauce and mince to my mind.

[@oxfordcommaisthegreatest]

Jon, I require the *sonic lasagne*

[@homestuck_official]

@@BaeYeou I mean if you think about it Garfield is kinda the Sonic of Lasagna

[@blackhogarth4049]

I prefer a timbre of 3:4.

[@Mousy677]

top quality comment really

[@fromchomleystreet]

I love that one of his examples of the degeneration of complexity in music is “how did we go from Bob Dylan to Britney Spears?”. It’s difficult to imagine an example he could have come up with that is less harmonically complex than the music of Bob Dylan. Dylan’s reputation rests almost entirely on his skills as a lyricist (something not within the scope of this study) and the biggest Dylan fan in the world wouldn’t claim there was anything especially sophisticated or inventive about his chord sequences. The whole point of folk music is that it’s simple and derivative of traditional structures. I love Dylan, and I’m no great fan of Britney Spears, but I don’t have to be to recognise the obvious fact that “Toxic” is an infinitely more harmonically and rhythmically complex piece of music than “Blowin in the Wind”.

[@geoffreybrunell5592]

Exactly! These people say "Oh it's not about nostalgia, music from the past was actually better," but then they put no thought into analyzing the music of the past and just *assume* all of it was more complex than the music today, proving that for them, it is indeed about nostalgia and not about the actual music.

[@njoYYY]

"Dylan’s reputation rests almost entirely on his skills as a lyricist" Untrue. He just has an "awful" voice.

[@rob0nemusic369]

I think he never listened to Bob Dylan but still used him as an exemple...

[@Frosty_tha_Snowman]

I'll agree that he used a bad example, but that's because he's 100% out of tune with what people listen to today, everything else he said about how music is degrading is true, however.

[@geoffreybrunell5592]

@@Frosty_tha_Snowman What proof do you have of this?

[@arciphera]

oh man. what you did with that freeze-frame at 7:22 is just brutal. Thoughty2's never gonna live that down.

So subtle, so great

[@rofljohn23]

Minor note from a guy that knows dick about music, but has had fingers in science. The journal, Sci Rep, that published the article is not exactly known for its academic rigor. Issues like not retracting plagiarised work, happily publishing junk about homeopathy working on rats etc, makes it rather untrustworthy in my book. One could therefore reasonably ask why the authors chose that exact journal to publish their work rather than a reputable one that specialises in the field. There may be some good research published there, but it is kinda like if you wrote a news article and could only sell it to Infowars.

[@senza4591]

Jeez, wth? Bruh...

[@noonehere4332]

XD at “selling to infowars”

[@elvellarambles9151]

Music these days is turning the frogs gay

[@alexanderlittle9786]

Its interesting that you trash infowars despite not having ever watched it. He plays a persona, but when you research the topics on which he reports, there is credible evidence used to back it up. The one statement everybody uses as proof of jones' insanity is, "the frogs are turning gay." On its face it sounds ridiculous, especially as frogs operate on instinct and sexual orientation is irrelevant... but it is true that chemicals being added in water that we end up drinking, is turning frogs into hermaphrodites. This shows that a chemical we ingest has displated very unsettling results within animals onto whom it has been exposed. So it wasnt turning them gay, but instead radically altered their reproductive system. This happens during times of great stress, or, such as in this case, of outside chemicals being introduced. But the media needed something to discredit him, so such a small petty piece of information that couldve been phrased better, was used as an excuse to remove him from social media. They also spread the complete lie that he is a bigot, and that it was a reason for his banishment... but interestingly enough, they dont ban actual white supremacists... only influential moderate conservatives, whos audience reaches more people in a day than cnn is capable of in a month, were banned. The actual far right hold opinions so ridiculous that nobody takes them seriously. Race based arguments are easy to destroy, and never influenced a significant number of trump suporters. There are probably more who believe in racial superiority on the left than the right. But they actually do view whites as superior, and this brings up the severe guilt they have for being alive and sharing a similar complexion with the majority in western society, which in the modern world is doing the best. He called out the chinese government, which youtube, big tech, and the democrats will not allow. But they do allow china to kidnap uygur muslims and place them in "re-education" camps, often using them as forced labor as theyre given hours of communist brainwashing every day. So not letting muslims enter the usa, from countries where ID and criminal history cannot be verified, is bad. But letting muslims get forced into slavery where American corporations will profit from such evil, is totally cool and you are a racist if you disagree. I hate leftism

[@rofljohn23]

@@alexanderlittle9786 yeeeeeeeaaahh, that’s great and all mate, but I’m not gonna read your phd thesis on biology and media critique. Maybe go have a smoke, a bottle of Xanax, and come back to the big boy table when I can’t see your aneurysms through the comment section anymore.

[@wyrmoffastring]

Oh mate... us painters have been through this a couple years back when everyone yelled at us for using digital media and how that's cheating cus "there's no undo on a canvas!" like you can't paint over errors or some shit idk.

[@SerpongeDash]

That's just sad, art should be about freedom, not following a set of rule because that's how everyone did it before. It's like people complain about art getting stale but they also don't want to see new stuff

[@Yelooh]

@@SerpongeDash i hate to be that person saying 'oh wow look it's a gd person' but this really was the last place i expected to find you lol

[@brendancahill3723]

Well it is in a way, and I say that as an art school drop out who uses both mediums. There's no requirement for discipline or patience with digital... You can remove errors in milliseconds and use different brush tools that can create effects that would take months to create traditionally. You've also got the advantage of using a screen which emits light as opposed to a canvas which can only reflect light so it's harder to achieve the same level of brightness. Then you've got things like layers, tints, filters... The list goes on.

[@JuanDi_SDK]

We music people have been through this as well ever since overdubs and pitch/time correction (autotune) became a thing. Also backing tracks in live performance, all of which are tools to better express artistic ideas. People will always complain, shit this even happens in the SUDOKU comunity. Yes you read that right, there are people out there who think making pencil marks on sudoku is cheating, even when it is used at competitive level. These critisisms are just thoughtless bitterness and should be ignored though

[@fabianvanderelst9643]

I think both styles have a lot of value! Drawing by hand is awesome, and drawing with a digital method is awesome as well! Both have just different kinds of usage, I think. And some do prefer the others. But no method is worse than the other.

[@raruther59]

One thing that contributes to the vague feeling that “music was better X years ago” is that over time, mediocre music gets forgotten and only the best remains, so when you’re thinking of “60s music” you’re only thinking of essentially the greatest hits, which on average will outpace a randomly selected modern song we might not remember 20 years from now. There’s still plenty of great music being produced today, and I’d bet my yearly salary that in the 2040s people will be listening to today’s greatest hits and bemoaning the decline of their decade’s music.

[@GeneralNickles]

At the rate things are going, there won't even be music in 2040. It'll just be radio static with a generic synth beat under it, and it'll win every music award known to man kind.

[@GeneralNickles]

@birds don't blame me. Blame society and there utter lack of taste in music.

[@danielpatternson6149]

@@GeneralNickles wow, cynical much.

[@GeneralNickles]

@@danielpatternson6149 don't blame me. Blame society and they're bullshit.

[@Isakube]

@@GeneralNickles wow, their* much.

[@Ryan98391]

One must never forget the musical masterpiece of "How Much is that Doggie in the Window" written by Bob Merrill in 1952 and made famous by Patti Page. It requires not one but TWO chords to play and is written in the bizarre time signature of 3/4. Oh, the horror! One only hopes that we will ever attain such musical complexity and timber, timbre, timber, timbre ever again.

[@Ziel23987]

So this wasn't just a bizarre phrase Pratchett thought up...

[@jeffirwin7862]

I appreciate musicians who know how to work with timbre, that's why my favorite band is The Carpenters.

[@cyncynshop]

All these Timber jokes are killing me

[@GTAmaniac1]

Lumberjacks are better tbh

[@AbsoluteAbsurd]

Tom bruh*

[@julijakeit]

:D

[@sephikong8323]

Yeah, Carpenter Brut is really good at using timber I agree

[@emperorpingusmathchannel5365]

"Let's compare the best music that survived to be still popular today to popular music produced today."

[@inotfunny8506]

That mistake is made too often...

[@jackthorton10]

nuff said

[@Theocloud]

Gregorian chants ?

[@tms229]

I AIN'T GAY BUT I FUCKIN LOVE YOU FOR BEING THE ONLY ONE TO BRING THIS ANALOGY!! FUCK ME PLEASE

[@nikibronson133]

Exactly

[@SQUIZZLER24]

I’m quite disappointed by your discussion of timbre. You mentioned nothing of density, heart wood, sap wood, fibre length, shock resistance or even anything to do with quality issues such as shake. You clearly know nothing about music.

[@KilaKrumpira]

Timbre bs is irrelevant, especiallx in modern music and it's perfectly measurable with precision.

[@Alsry1]

@@KilaKrumpira good job, you missed the joke.

[@marcocosentino7239]

Hardness and appearance are of paramount importance if you want to build musical instruments and make timbre out of timber

[@harryfloros8796]

And no opportunity must ever be lost to distinguish between hard wood and soft wood. People just don’t appreciate the different timbres.

[@hbb1939]

@@KilaKrumpira *perfectly measurable with a ruler.

[@moth5799]

Something you didn't touch on but also explains why people think modern music is "bad" is selection bias. We only remember the great songs from the 70s and 80s, not all the trashy ones that were only popular for a week or two. So when someone who grew up in the 70s is comparing the music they remember to the music on the radio, not only are they looking at the older music with nostalgia but they're comparing the very best of the 70s to the average of today.

[@rudolfambrozenvtuber]

I am cursed with the knowledge that there were Lionel Richie clones. And oh boy did they chart

[@moth5799]

@@rudolfambrozenvtuber Exactly! None of those clones did anything interesting musically, they just produced rip offs of great music. People loved them then but no one nowadays remembers them. That's exactly what's happening now as well. 40 years from now only the truly good bands will be remembered, just like how only Queen, the Beatles etc are remembered now.

[@derdritte7957]

Such a weird argument, given the defence of today's music always is "Just look outside the top 100!".

[@cheopys]

I never listen to Ten Years After anymore, but they were still better than anything coming out today. A year after Thriller was the best selling LP of all time, you could buy it for 5¢ in a used CD store. Meanwhile people still listen to the Beatles and Yes. Music today is like a hotel room toothbrush, single-use and disposable.

[@katicasey4610]

I was born in the wrong generation, I only listen to Yoko Ono screaming into a microphone smh kids my age don't appreciate good music.

[@freeparking301]

Yoko’s voice is magic...just listen to the chorus of “Happy Xmas (War is Over)” and tell me who else can impersonate a dying cat so well that it over rides John Lennon’s lead vocal and sends you diving into a fiery chasm leading to the gates of Hell

[@axelbergstrom3644]

Hey, Yoko released plenty of good tunes

[@ayhamshaheed7740]

a bit much. Most people don't even like Yoko Ono lol

[@hickorymccay2994]

@@ayhamshaheed7740 Hey, I like Yoko!

[@ayhamshaheed7740]

Hickory McCay 😂 sorry about that. Well, I did say *most* people 🤷‍♂️

[@Roy-ts9nv]

Confirmation bias masked as objectivity is a very powerful drug. His video as of today has 9.7 million views...

[@ELEcomments]

That's because he made good points. Instead of this guy who just misdericted all of us with his narritive. Complexity and context are NOT the same thing yet he went on for quite a while acting like they were. Thought 2 wasn't talking about context. He was talking about basic complexity in musical arrangements.

[@ysgatora9287]

@@ELEcomments all he did was make it clear that Thoughty can't even use these terms correctly. If you think music is getting worse, you're just that close minded. You know people make new stuff everyday, right

[@ELEcomments]

@@ysgatora9287 Thoughty2 never said all new music is bad either. And neither am I. but I agree with his other points. Also, for the guy who was mocking him for not doing his research this guy should really do more research cause guess what I looked up both Dr. Luke, and Max Martin and available right there on their own wiki pages is a list of people they have produced and written for; Katy Perry, Kesha, Avril Lavigne, Maroon 5. Cher Lloyd, Pink, Usher, Taylor Swift, Ariana Grande, The Weekend, Kelly Clarkson, Britney Spears, Nsync, Kayne West, Juicy J, Kendrick Lamar, Backstreet Boys, Speech, The Veronicas, Paris Hilton, Miranda Cosgrove, Flo Rida, Miley Cyrus, Adam Lambart, Pitbull, Lil Jon, Taio Cruz, T.I, Rihanna, Nikki Minaj, One Direction, Will.i.am, Robin Thicke, Becky G, Shakira, Ne-Yo, R. Kelly, Pusha T, Fergie, Tyga, Lil Wayne, Juice Wrld and more still... Many of these they even worked on together. Most of these as well are or have been huge superstars in the last 20 years with many hits and being played on the radio, movie trailers, commercials all over the place. Tell me how his point doesn't stand?

[@ieatpeople7055]

@@ELEcomments tantacrul is a composer. thoughty2 is a nobody. thoughty2 is in no way qualified to talk about music

[@ELEcomments]

@@ieatpeople7055 You don't need to be a chef to know when the food is bad.

[@funnyperson4027]

What Aaron said at 9:30 pissed me off. Most people that flick through playlists on Spotify are flipping through playlists they made. These people have listened to these songs countless times.

[@holdenroth5929]

I do that a lot on the playlist that I listen to a lot.

[@Ciph3rzer0]

Even mindlessly listening to recommended tracks and other playlists is a way better way to find musical diversity than methods 10 years ago.... Listening to the radio and swapping cassettes on the underground. I'm sure there's a larger percentage of people and kids even engaged in more interesting music these days than 20 years ago.

[@funnyperson4027]

Josh White agreed. When you swapped cassettes it’s often be wth song that are of a similar genre with what you’re swapping for, so you wouldn’t really go into other genres the way that recommendations allow you to. I was listening to CHON and was introduced to a lot of djent when listening to the recommendations

[@dirkdowney3768]

I literally have a playlist from Spotify because I listen to so many songs over and over

[@mariaquiet6211]

I find it just disgusting when people make "we" statements when they clearly mean "you" and also "I am above you". Add his smug lecturing voice and you have a guy who by all rights should never be sporting less than one black eye.

[@nudelsuppe3dsemmelknodel990]

No one is gonna read this but, I think the main problem is over saturation. The more you get exposed to music the more it desensitises you. If you listen to the top 20 favourite songs of yours, they're gonna sound boring. By the same logic, an entire genre starts sounding generic and music from about 30 years ago sounds interesting, because it is different. Solution: zap through different radio stations once in a while. You'll be surprised at what you can find.

[@ActualSolitaire]

I read it. And you're right, but people would rather just keep listening to music they hate so they can keep complaining lol

[@nudelsuppe3dsemmelknodel990]

As yes "ia" lemme fix that real quick

[@thursoberwick1948]

I downloaded the Radio Garden app to listen to radio across the world. Unfortunately a lot of stations are playing the exact same music. I was more interested in stations playing local styles not global mush.

[@dbclass4075]

@@ActualSolitaire Call the radio station, complain and vow to never listen to them again. Repeat the following day.

[@gb-jl9yq]

I once read a 50s teen magazin. They were talking about how many people complained about "modern" music and how much better 20s music was. People will always complain about new things.

[@targetbuddy5]

I'm always reminded of this quote: “The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers.” - Socrates, circa 400 BC EDIT: This quote was apparently not a direct quote from Socrates, but rather a sort of summary of grievances against youth around Socrates' time, written by a history student at Cambridge in 1907. The more you know!

[@drunkene.flatmajor9892]

@@ChideraAAbviewssecondsago Cuz they are crap

[@lupaloops4166]

@@drunkene.flatmajor9892 I'm sorry but we listen to 5000 B.C. rock smashing and we don't listen to mainstream Bach. 😩🙄

[@drunkene.flatmajor9892]

@@lupaloops4166 I believe so...

[@patrickwayne9074]

I have looked for the old magazines and never found anything like this. It would be cool to read some.

[@TheSmurfboard]

The timbre of Norwegian Wood is outstanding, no wonder Ikea sells so much of it.

[@arccv]

*bewildered swedish noises*

[@twischta]

I find it highly amusing that there actually was (or is?) a group with the name "Norwegian Wood". I can't really comment on the music as I've only seen one album in a shop that had a small CD collection, and when I later returned the album was gone. I'm still wondering though, as the cover art actually made me curious about the music.

[@JaneXemylixa]

@John Ploopy Wasn't that song inspired by some furniture ad promoting shitty run-of-the-mill pine as super cool Norwegian wood? xD

[@totallynuts7595]

"Hamonic Complexity" I am not even kidding, the guy wrote *HAMONIC* in his video

[@accelrailgun5065]

2:52

[@harrylane4]

Thoughty: *hamon* ic Me, an intellectual: Is this a jojo reference

[@totallynuts7595]

@@harrylane4 Sadly , no

[@Ya-kz7lg]

Maybe he was referring to the complexities of the Hamitic nations?

[@totallynuts7595]

@@Ya-kz7lg No. Have you watched the video?

[@Posiman]

I'd sincerely encourage people to sift through the TOP50 hits of the 1960's There's shockingly few anazing songs by Dylan, Hendrix or Joplin as compared to the tons of run of the mill bubblegum pop like the Ohio Express or The Archies

[@cheopys]

The Guess Who were on AM radio when I was in high school. Listen to "No Time," a better song than anything that's come out of rock in a generation.

[@Miranox2]

Yep, golden age syndrome relies on forgetting the bad stuff of the past.

[@DanJackson1977]

​@@cheopysthis assumes you've heard every rock song of this generation. Also, it's based on your purely subjective taste.

[@cheopys]

@@DanJackson1977 I am not at all interested in discussing subjectivity. I know music theory, I love music. In my youth there was great music everywhere, now one has to search hard for anything listenable.

[@kekkiko6647]

​@cheopys Simply not true. Many many songs in this generation are good. But for someone who enjoys smooth, classical rock, you won't find a lot of new things because the cultural boom of classic rock has died down. Not saying that nothing is produced, but it doesn't stay as visible as old rock that is already known. It's simply a matter of ear, and as someone who enjoys a wide variety of genres from hyperpop to death metal, I can find many good songs.

[@loweffortproductions1985]

Your timber joke is overused; I wood appreciate it if you'd cut it back a bit.

[@christianfriisjensen2055]

hi dad

[@francesconicoletti2547]

Shane McCollum I see what you did there

[@Tantacrul]

@@francesconicoletti2547 I would have preferred 'trim it down', but it was still pretty good,

[@theinspiringengineer-scien6393]

Yes - just shave it down a little :D :D PS - loved the timber gags :)

[@greedokenobi3855]

LOL

[@boppe2235]

Its like one of those incomplete quotes where people forget the second half of a phrase so it loses its meaning "Modern music is awful... for those who are too lazy to dig"

[@legrandliseurtri7495]

Indeed, music has more variety than ever and it's also easier to access than ever. Anyone can find something they love if they search long enought.

[@svansy]

@@legrandliseurtri7495 the availability of music through a simple mouse click also gives us alternatives. the peer pressure to like a specific kind of music, just cause it's the thing everyone is shoving down your ears, is to a large extent gone. the radio in its traditional "single-track-on-repeat-for-4-weeks-straight-repeat-repeat-repeat" state is also gone. you also no longer need to be extremely lucky to be born to a mayor and the grand dutches of Luxembourg to afford producing music.

[@jasonlambert5552]

Any DJ worth their salt knows the dig is more important than anything

[@ianbohl7862]

trust me, i've been digging for a while. only good pieces recently are Gangnam Style and We are Number One. unsure if Gangnam is even modern at this point, 8+ years on. music just gets worse the closer it is to the now, lets face it.

[@legrandliseurtri7495]

@@ianbohl7862 That's what you call digging?!! The most viewed song of all time?

[@ElectricUnicycleCrew]

Thoughts from a musician and fellow composer here - Thoughty2 claims that over time, timbre in pop songs has 'dropped drastically'. This makes no sense because timbre is a qualitative parameter, not a quantitative one. For example, a sawtooth wave contains more overtones than a sine wave, but we wouldn't necessarily say it has 'more' timbre, we would just say it has a 'different' timbre. It's like saying something which has more sugar has 'more taste' than something with less sugar. That's how I think about it anyway.

[@marinewelsh9927]

Read max stirner

[@Liliquan]

@@marinewelsh9927 Lol, random but I must agree.

[@RegahP]

Yeah, the dude is oversimplifying to the point of nonsense, you can't describe music in 3 quantitative properties, if it has little or lots of timbre, if it has little or lots of harmonic complexity, like that makes no sense it's not how music works at all

[@anonymouswitness3835]

Learning about this music theory stuff makes a lot of things make sense. I used to think electronica and pop was 'bad' because it made my ears hurt. I now realize that lack of overtones in music can be overstimulating for my poor autistic ears, but there's nothing objectively 'bad' about it.

[@radiobiologist]

He is just pro classical.

[@ntodd4110]

You treated this "thesis" about "musical decline" with precisely the amount of sarcasm, snark, and derision that it deserves. And for all the right reasons. Well done.

[@johnnastrom9400]

No it doesn't. Modern pop music sucks.

[@antrix2107]

@@johnnastrom9400 That statement is subjective

[@johnnastrom9400]

@@antrix2107 -- You might want to check what Rick Beato has to say about this matter and he is the authority on this subject.

[@johnnastrom9400]

@@antrix2107 -- Also, there is also a measure of a musical composition's complexity. Do some research.

[@HexaflexagonFan]

​@@johnnastrom9400and pop is only a miniscule part of modern music, so idg what you are saying

[@philiprousseau7333]

I really think you misunderstood the dude here, he was of course talking about timber and not that timbre stuff. timber is a value that is equal to the amount of pitbull in a song, which obviously means more timber, more gooder

[@kathorsees]

hah! you're such a sham! obviously "timber" is already the comparative - it's "the timber the music, the gooder", you nincompoop

[@geometrydashbayve5004]

@@kathorsees Jesus fucking christ, just throwing out the n-word like that

[@ZenoDovahkiin]

OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO-WOOH! kzbin.info/www/bejne/mKm1q6adqduUobs

[@Sammie_Sorrelly]

Timber? I hardly know 'er!

[@OrangeC7]

@@kathorsees nincompoop is a word I see spelled out so infrequently it still surprises me when I see it in writing

[@Zonno5]

Everyone who creates titles with TRUTH in it can not be trusted.

[@markschwarz2137]

Also, any vid with the title format "X DESTROYS Y!!!" is designed to confirm an individual's preconception that X is amazing and Y is pants.

[@Tantacrul]

@@markschwarz2137 Oh yes! If 'Destroys' is in the title, it's a sure sign the video will be garbage.

[@ZenoDovahkiin]

@@Tantacrul Thanks for showing people the *truth,* man. You totally destroyed this _triggered_ musical _snowflake_ with *facts* and *logic!* Totally pwnd!

[@thealientree3821]

What about (NOT CLICKBAIT)?

[@Hastilygrim]

Ain't that the truth?

[@andreasvandieaarde]

"These days, painters are all just using the exact same stuff - brushes, colour, and *I D E A S* " That part killed me

[@stephk5797]

Here have a comment

[@ThatHorribleMusiciandork7]

here have another comment

[@jaredjoe133]

⁠@@ThatHorribleMusiciandork7 here have another newer comment

[@Datboichannel]

Here have a reply

[@jaspermooren5883]

Here, have another reply.

[@javascriptkiddie2718]

Pop is dance music. It's hard to dance to something with constant changes in harmony/mood and that's why it's simple and loud because it's intended to make you JAM. Same for a lot of EDM. That's the problem with all these videos. It's like comparing salt to sugar, or a drill to a saw. All music is actually good if you know where to apply it.

[@averagecoasterenjoyer]

YES! I watch his original video and that's what I was screaming (also was screaming how he never mentioned any *great* artists like Kendrick Lamar)

[@Monti1999]

Well say That to Rock, Punk, Metal. 😆

[@cheopys]

BS. Pop is vocalist shit. And most vocalists are headache music.

[@psychodrummer1567]

Music is music, though, therefore you can still compare it, just like you can compare The Godfather to Avengers: Infinity War. The only caveat is, *your bias* determines which one of those two titles you consider to be "the better movie".

[@Dojafish]

Pop isn't really only just Dance music ,there alot of pop songs out there that are complex . Bjork is a great example of that .

[@YostPeter]

How many images of timber do you now have on your computer? Don't lie.

[@Tantacrul]

Let me check. I really did spend quite a bit of time searching. When I type 'T' into my browser, 'Timber' is still the first suggestion :)

[@DarkSideofSynth]

You basically launched a new mania: timber p0rn! ;) That's how you go down in history.

[@shayneoneill1506]

@@DarkSideofSynth Crackin' a woody for Timber!

[@Tantacrul]

@Khanon A big fan of Norwegian Wood

[@YostPeter]

@@Tantacrul I see what you did there.

[@Scooter_Alice]

People say music is getting worse, but they don't realize that there used to be just as much bad music as there is now, we just don't remember because we moved on from that era. The same thing will happen to us; all of the bad artists will fade into obscurity just like they did back then, and people will look back on current year and say "what happened to all the good music?"

[@davidlust2895]

But what about the new generation liking the older stuff?

[@jokerbattle7331]

Back then music was music industry had talented people make music and all the bad stuff went under the rug. Now due to modern technology it is easy to produce music that's way we have we have more music and most of them are shit. Singer using autotune instead of their talent. It feels more mass produced.

[@jokerbattle7331]

@@Scooter_Alice But there are many good and talented singers and musicians but are underrated. They use their talents to create great music. Sad reality is they are not given attention by mainstream producers. Only thing they care about is money and image. They will hire good looking people with no talent than a person with talent.

[@mlsdreavusjargon6910]

Yep, and the same thing can be said about any medium. Games today are getting worse, anime today is getting worse. And yes, some more niche or new mediums like those have more releases now in general, and so it would follow that more bad stuff is coming out than before, but there was still a bunch of mediocre stuff not worth looking twice at and just downright bad stuff coming out back in the 80s, but after decades of newer content, when people think back to that time they remember what is worth remembering. When people think back to the previous decade in 30 years, they won’t remember Aliens: Colonial Marines, or whatever bland party game was released late intonations the Wii’s life, or whatever random shovelware was coming out, they’ll more likely remember The Last of Us, Breath of the Wild, Persona 5, the games that left an impact, or the niche favourites that stick with people. They won’t remember Arifureta or Conception the Animation, or Charlotte, they’ll remember Shirobako, Made in Abyss, Kaguya-sama and Sangatsu no Lion, or again their more niche favourites. You just need to step back and look at how many good or great pieces of content is coming out, and how it’s actually pretty ok for the number of years you’re looking at.

[@smithwerber414]

I have recently started watching older anime. Not just the good ones but any kind of old anime from the 90s. I picked them randomly even some obscure weird shit. And I can tell you why so many people says that. Most of those shit i watched had better storylines and dynamic characters compare to today's anime where most are harem with bland characters. I have also seen some older harem(if they are known as harem back then) but the thing is they have better stories than today's worst anime. Although some of those older shit have worse animation they still have some charm to it. Back then when they produced something they made sure to give their 100%. Mow due to technology we can make most stuff easily. So it is easy to make everything with little to no effort. Which feels soulless. Now we have more anime than before but with no story. Compare to older shit that has bad animation and art has better story.

[@krishnatamang1561]

If you like a song, you just like it, don't let people ruin it for you.

[@juancamilo4684]

right? i dont know why people keep buggin me for liking R Kelly, hes amazing

[@masteroffear5762]

@Elias Yildiz Hate is a strong word, i'd respect more with people who dislike it than just hate it. Hate will be like ridiculing someone's taste for like a week without doing something productive, at least that's how i feel with it personally.

[@ashtar3876]

Honestly i feel like this channel and others have done that to me

[@BlackbeltHitoshi]

@@juancamilo4684"age is just a number" 💀

[@juancamilo4684]

@@BlackbeltHitoshi right? and urine is the same as sweat just a bit yellowish

[@lerippletoe6893]

I think music could have *generally* gotten worse for business reasons this study was not capable of addressing. The big dumb lake got bigger and took a larger portion of the market, but quality and differentiation in the rest maybe even got better, and people have more access to the better stuff now too so that difference can give people today an effective access to better music. Older music has the benefit of being filtered too - if we had to listen to the older music in the proportions and selection people who lived then were subjected to, we might have better perspective and get annoyed by it just as much as we're annoyed by modern top chart hits sometimes.

[@josephstalin2829]

Other funny little contradiction from Thoughty 2’s video, He says how in the good ole days people took the time to listen to a record, and that they listened to it several times so that they could get the nuances. And that today people switched a lot faster between songs, not taking the time. Later in the video he explains how you’re being brainwashed by modern music, because they “force” you to listen to a song over, and over, and over again. So, is listening to music over and over again until we like it a thing of the past, or a modern brainwashing method? That video is full of logical fallacies.

[@S41t4r4]

Being manipulated to like something by constant exposure and repition isn't even new. That was a thing even on early radio. The new thing is that you pay money to generate streamed numbers, not only to get it recommended over and over again but also to get those numbers to impress the consumers to think that it must be good.

[@tungster24]

ok joseph stalin

[@TrueKivan]

It is being forced in workplaces and shops all around the world though, that is exposure for sure.

[@louisalzate6185]

thanks stalin

[@unknown41030]

To anyone interested, I know a few good reads around the subject: "On Repeat: How Music Plays the Mind" by Elizabeth Hellmuth Margulis, and "The Song Machine: Inside the Hit Factory" by John Seabrook.

[@ramnophone6650]

Modern music is garbage. I prefer the sound of multiple computers failing at once.

[@biddyfox]

good to see another idm fan in the comments

[@abstract_cosplay]

wait isnt modern music a computer crashing?

[@birdrustler]

Breakcore?

[@robolencca-0126]

Floppotron?

[@scoreunder]

As a sysadmin this is my life

[@tultrapfighter]

what i learned from this video: good music is made out of wood.

[@Goldrusher-ee3jo]

School orchestra better than school band confirmed

[@noonehere4332]

I prefer music made of metal, preferably heavy metal.

[@hornyleftbuttcheek856]

I like music made with water

[@twocatsinatrenchcoat2511]

@No one here Uranium music gang rise up

[@lemonbread8019]

@@twocatsinatrenchcoat2511 Osmium gang rise up.

[@dbrock1553]

I think your description of Thoughty is pretty accurate, he sounds good unless you actually know something about what he is talking about then you realize he's just Googled a bunch of random facts and has no idea what he is actually saying. He is pretty much the embodiment of the Dunging-Kruger effect meets the office know-it-all. When someone like Rick Beato talks about the evolution of music he knows what he is talking about, when Aaron talks about it, he is just summarizing an article he has no ability to critique and then tossing some misunderstood Googled "facts" on top.

[@cewla3348]

the dunning-kreuger effect is just that self-expectation starts high, but grows slow e.g quantifying skill means that a 10% skill person believes themselves to be 50%, but a 100% skill person believes themself to be (if i remember right) 75%. There's no big fall-off or rise.

[@dbrock1553]

@@cewla3348 It's more about a lack of comprehension of a subject. It's about skill and knowledge, and it's about being deficient in understanding to the point that you cannot comprehend the depth and breadth of a topic and thus cannot even estimate your relative competence, so it's not JUST self-expectation but rather inability to understand how to anchor your expectations ( I tend to favour the metacognition theory BTW). When you gain experience and understanding you start to realize how extensive the subject is and your confidence will align with your actual understanding and abilities. Experts are the most accurate in their self-assessment but do tend to slightly underestimate their knowledge and skill as they understand their limits and the limits of the subject or skill in toto. There is a drop at the flexion point where a person actually gains enough knowledge or skill to understand how little they really know, although not the way most people have seen the curve, but I'm not sure where you get those percentages since there is no precise way to quantify these flexion points for every possible subject as they will vary greatly by subject and not just individual. Those nicely round points (10%, 50%, 100%, 75%)are rather suspect.

[@cynicanal111]

I know this is an older comment, but in recent times, Beato has gone down the "boomer music was the best and everything afterwards is just trash" rabbit hole and begun yelling at clouds just as hard as anyone else on KZbin.

[@wyrmoffastring]

So what Aaron says is music today doesn't give him wood.

[@lifeontheledgerlines8394]

69 likes man

[@delve_]

+Scurvy Dan How do I achieve CHIM?

[@10mimu]

Delve by standing at the top of the tower and still seeing the wheel reach heaven by violence

[@thazmat]

@@10mimu what he said

[@MDProgramming]

Or as BobbyDukeArts says, WEWD!!

[@Bhatt_Hole]

"Lollipop lollipop , Oh lolli lolli lolli. Lollipop, lollipop, Oh lolli lolli lolli". It's true! They just don't write em like that anymore! Those lyrics are deep! The music is profound! That's not music...it's art! NEW MUSIC SUCKS! BRING BACK LOLLIPOP!

[@رزيئة]

Yo the song is fun though

[@drunkene.flatmajor9892]

@@رزيئة That is the choir and it has way more notes than the whole Gucci Gang song, not to mention the fact that those girls could sing for real.

[@ozark5247]

@@drunkene.flatmajor9892 lil pump wasn’t even trying to sing in the song anyways lol. Also why do y’all always keep bringing up this song as an example it’s been like 3 years since it came out. It’s irrelevant.

[@luisfersm]

@@ozark5247 because it is a prime example of the music trash of today.

[@ozark5247]

@@luisfersm Honestly both the songs are really simple anyway. Both got repetitive choruses, simple subject matter, one just has singing and the other rapping. Yea sure you could say one is more talented than the other, but they both have a similar structure. Shouldn’t really be a prime example of the, “music trash of today”.

[@SawedOffLad]

I wish I was born during the Big Bang, listening to the creation of the universe, hearing galaxy’s and stars form. That was real music, none of that shit where all you do is bang sticks and rocks and call it music, I was born in the wrong generation

[@sloper013]

big bang is still going on....

[@chromso]

@@AbcIHateYou3 you're just not trying hard enough bro. if you try really hard you can feel the vibrations caused by the big bang simply by putting your hand in the air.

[@bloodyhell8201]

@@AbcIHateYou3 no air in space to carry the sound to your eardrums Oh god, it was around all along..

[@ttty2242]

@@AbcIHateYou3 Just sense the microwave background radiation, ez

[@seannewport1543]

the big bang wasnt loud at all, it just seemed that way cause there was nothin goin on at the time.

[@cziffrathegreat666]

its like the baroque era critisizing the romantic era with all its free rubato and "loudness and quietness"

[@NegativeReferral]

"We're losing the timbre! We blame four versatile musical tools that can sound like anything in the hands of a skilled sound designer!"

[@NegativeReferral]

@@iamacdr9998 Umm.... what does this have to do with this comment? There's only one stop motion film on my channel BTW.

[@iamacdr9998]

@@NegativeReferral you're a neolib for agreeing with a side of this debate instead of hating both sides. music today isn't a net improvement or a net negative. plus, your analogy of using fuckin mattell toys to describe transphobia is wack and half-baked.

[@Carbon2861996]

Instruments are no longer made of timber!

[@furcornmanwiththemasterpla8380]

The four chords that are actually less common today than they were in the 80s and early 2000s! I don't actually listen to music today, I just automatically assume that it uses the 4 chords because that's something easy to criticize. Either that or I group every bad popular song from the last 20 years into this box of "Bad music," even if they've gone completely out of style in favor of more complex music, because that's somehow fair!

[@averagecoasterenjoyer]

That's excatly what I was thinking when watching the video

[@SmartStr33t]

Modern authors are so rubbish. In the past authors used all kinds of pens, pencils and quills, but nowadays they all use CoMpUtEr SoFtWaRe.

[@chidori7234]

Pre-modern puritans be like: _Reproducing books is so rubbish. Back then people commissioned scribes to reproduce a book, word for word, every MINUTE detail. Nowadays people use Gutenburg's stupid printing press. What a bunch of lazy degenerates..._

[@Thunderlion-yd4nv]

@SmartStr33rt I don't think that analogy works--You see, if modern authors did what most modern musicians do: It would be equivalent to typing a paragraph or sentence and then copying-and-pasting it repeatedly, only changing one or two things about it throughout.

[@SmartStr33t]

@@Thunderlion-yd4nv I just think this misunderstands what musicians do. Also it falls into the fallacy of comparing what is popular now with what was good in the past. There has always been popular music which is necessarily simplified and dumb, and there has always been good music, which never reaches the same levels of popularity but has much more staying power. E.g. if you think of music of the 1990s, you might think Nirvana, Bjork, Radiohead, Pearl Jam, Blur, etc. But then look at a wiki page for every number 1 single throughout the 1990s and it tells a completely different story. The popular stuff is rubbish and it's quickly forgotten.

[@Thunderlion-yd4nv]

@@SmartStr33t Umm...I don't think this misunderstands what most modern musicians (esp. rappers) do: If you listen to most chart-topping modern rap songs--for example--you will hear that it is mostly a drumline and few notes that repeat over and over again...Making it obvious they probably copied-and-pasted and/or recorded a half-assed sample and then clicked "loop", before adding minor things to it as the sample progressively repeated and repeated

[@SmartStr33t]

@@Thunderlion-yd4nv I don't think any rapper is using 'half-arsed samples'. And you can make anything sound bad if you want. Modern books? Authors nowadays just take a bunch of half-arsed words and plug them into tired old narratives. Modern painting? Artists just chuck paint at a canvas. Baroque painting? Artists used to just draw people without clothes on and then just colour them in with some half-arsed oil paints. I'm tempted to say if you think writing a catchy pop song is so simple then you have a go at it.

[@Kat-Kobold]

"Punchy bass is a pop thing that has made music worse" Arran is lucky that Lemmy isn't alive to hear him say that.

[@dysfunctionalcaramel3821]

Hey robotnik how are ya?

[@stefanpredoi4564]

Listen to any old dub reggae album from the 70s and you'll realize that we've enjoyed punchy bass for a very, very long time

[@you_tubeslonelyheartsclubband]

I hope he doesn't listen to later Beatles records or Motown/Stax/Soul.

[@you_tubeslonelyheartsclubband]

@@stefanpredoi4564 Even in jazz, people set their action(height of the strings from the fingerboard) on their upright basses higher so that it was punchier and louder.

[@stefanpredoi4564]

@@you_tubeslonelyheartsclubband That's really not surprising. In the days before amplification was widespread you had to cut through the room somehow, especially considering that the bass plays an essential role in the chordal structure of jazz ensembles. Also yes, Motown and late Beatles have some stellarly punchy bass that manages to still fit in super well into the mix. The mono mixes are superior in this regard.

[@abbadonmusic]

I am a producer, and I come back to laugh at this every now an again. I love the takes of the general quality of music, given to me by people who do not make music. It's very funny.

[@blackskeleton7817]

also a producer, been doing it for close to 6 years, and man; ive come back to this video SO many times, and every time i find another layer of depth to the absolute ignorance of thoughty2; the comments are also a goldmine, full of people that dont know the first thing about music lol

[@averagecoasterenjoyer]

"oh no, timbre and lyrics are the only good things about music" - probably Thoughty2 No

[@GibusWearingMann]

In retrospect, hyperpop can be seen as a response to "modern music is bad because it has less timbre" by deliberately sounding awful by including *as much timbre as fucking possible*

[@cape90]

"deliberately sounding awful". Actual trash take LMAO

[@GibusWearingMann]

@@cape90 gecgecgecgecgecgecgecgecgecgecgecgecgecgecgecgecgec

[@Isakube]

I wouldn't say it deliberately sounds awful but if that was the intention it kinda backfired

[@GibusWearingMann]

@@Isakube It does certainly sound strange, at least. And I say that as a fan of the genre.

[@64_bit80]

@@cape90 I don't know, a big part of (some) hyperpop's aesthetic is just throwing whatever the hell you want in there, even if it sounds stupid, just because it's fun.

[@JETZcorp]

I was first really dissuaded from the "modern music sucks" argument in high school. My best friend asked me to proofread his essay in which he argued the case that music was getting worse. All of his points were so intensely un-persuasive, that in the process of analyzing them I broadly convinced myself that the thesis was simply false (even though we share mostly the same taste in music). The sentence in his essay that most stuck with me was, "Simply compare the lyric sheets for Bob Dylan's 'All Along the Watchtower' to that of Justin Bieber's 'Baby'." First thing I thought was, "Oh yeah? Compare the lyric sheets for The Beatles' 'Love Me Do' and Rihanna's 'Disturbia'! Tell me which is more complex and full of rich imagery!" That kind of cherry picking seems to be predominant in these kinds of discussions. There has always been an ocean of forgettable pop music, mixed in with great classics. You remember the classics and forget the forgettables. Comparing vintage classics to the modern forgettables will lead you to make false conclusions, just as would the more awkward task of exhuming some vintage forgettable trash and comparing it to the modern songs that people will still cherish 30 years from now.

[@marmolejomartinezjoseemili9043]

also music has the purpose off expressing the artists feelings so how good music is comes to the artist to decide if their music was good at helping them express themselves the word good refers to how efficient something is at doing their intended job

[@arthouston7361]

@@marmolejomartinezjoseemili9043 This is why I refer to Grunge as "music to slit your wrists by." They have effectively communicated something horrific.

[@bumbleeistheequeen4052]

I don’t understand this concept of every song has to be laden with rich imagery and poetic nuance, and mind boggling chord progressions. Why can’t it just be music that gives you a good feeling even if it doenst have much depthLet’s take Michael Jackson, his music is amazing because he was dedicated and that dedication translated to the audience and as a result his music is timeless. There’s a similar thing going on in rap between the older an new schools, because a lot of people don’t feel like modern rappers are lyricists when there’s more to rap or music than just lyrics

[@arthouston7361]

@@bumbleeistheequeen4052 Actually...the music of Michael Jackson was a part of old school pop. He had been making pop music with his brothers for a couple of decades. Real musicians playing real instruments with real talent, recorded on Ampex analogue open reel multitrack machines. When Off The Wall came out in 1979, it was a breakthrough for his work as an adult, as the previous solo efforts had been dim by comparison. This was before he started down the ill-fated plastic surgery road. He still looked like himself, and that was fine. He was the only one who thought he needed to change his face. Musically, the Thriller album brought him back to the forefront and the level of popularity he had with his brothers as a child singer. He had a few more hits, but like many pop artists, inspiration was becoming elusive. Michael did not suffer the basic lack of talent that so many artists have today, and that is really the subject of this topic. It's digital instrumentation being used in place of musical talent. As old Bill said, "there's the rub."

[@etzenhammer]

how about you compare "Obladee Obladaa" to a Kendrick record?

[@MrChristK]

What is also a problem is comparing Zeppelin and Lady Gaga. They have nothing at all to do with each other, not the same genres. If however you compare Zeppelin with their more appropriate musical heirs - modern prog metal bands, then the music is definitely not getting worse - it's still going strong as ever. And as for pop music, remember back in the sixties they had things like Hippy Hippy Shake. Sorry to say, but that's not better than Britney Spears. The point being, there always was and always will be bad and good music. Just grow a taste and get over it.

[@r.v.datmir992]

Before the rise of popular music that was the twentieth century, there was great music, and there was merely good music. The worst of the worst back then could hardly be called terrible, just mediocre.

[@MrChristK]

@@r.v.datmir992 That's true... Johann Strauss was mediocre imo, but not terrible. But who knows? There were some pretty nonsensical and vulgar ditties that may not have been widely published. I guess people had the decency back then not to publish what is obviously trash.

[@r.v.datmir992]

@@MrChristK How did you know that I considered Johann Strauss overrated? Yes, I consider him a mediocre composer, but he was also a genius at marketing and branding who overshadowed much better dance composers such as Ziehrer, Komzák, Lumbye. and even the other members of his own family. Strauss sohn WAS a genius, just not in the way history remembers him for being.

[@ivangushkov3651]

@@MrChristK OK, compare The Zombies and Cardi b. The zombies are pop from the 60s, Cardi B is modern pop. Are you seriously saying that Cardi b deserves to be named in the same sentence as the Zombies/beatles/beach boys/take your pick? Modern pop music is the definition of shallowness and lack of creativity. They have figured out a formula and are using it to print money like there´s no tomorrow. Creating products, not art, on an assembly line. Everything is on the grid, almost everything is shallow in lyrical content, almost everything is soulless. They call it RnB, but you can´t have blues on the fucking grid. Shit has always floated to the top but damn is it more true than ever these days...

[@MrChristK]

@@ivangushkov3651 Well, no, I did not draw that conclusion. I said rather that there are good and bad bands right now, and there also were back in the 60's. Maybe back then it was not so much due to cynical marketing of tired formulas known to sell a lot of albums, and more due to musicians just writing dorky songs because they didn't know any better. However it may be, I also have a very pessimistic outlook on modern pop. But for instance, a lot of KT Tunstall's music I find really well written, even though it's pop. You can't really generalize too much, especially considering the massive scope of styles a single genre could encompass. If it's the absolute mainstream chart-topping pop you're talking about, well, there good songs are like 1/1000 imo.

[@kinhamid9665]

"How did we get from Led Zeppelin to Lady Gaga?" I mean, how did we get from The Shaggs to King Gizzard, or from Tiny Tim to King Krule? Cherry-picking examples only makes your agenda easier to spot.

[@ajmeyers5661]

This was very on point, well argued and f**king hilarious, however you're doing it all wrong. If you want 2.4 million subs you have to be willing say to them: "you were right all along". Doesn't matter the topic, just: (1) find out what most people believe (2) say that thing back to them and (3) profit

[@pneumonoultramicroscopicsi4344]

Frick... seeya at 10 million!

[@modifiedcontent]

'Wisdom of Crowds' - or 'Gesundes Volksempfinden' as we used to call it

[@criticalhippo4294]

His whole channel just panders to boomers: Depressed millennials, friendless millennials, renewable energy is dumb millennials dumb, millennials = dumb dumb, you catch the drift

[@samerm8657]

You forgot the eyebrows. remember the eyebrows

[@DerekPower]

Say all the correct opinions whilst playing Minecraft.

[@ecyvalon]

I watched his channel years ago, but nowadays it seems like he has overdosed on redpills and his viewerbase just eats this stuff up

[@bencristofani3116]

Same. This video is a good critique of his bs

[@instinctbrosgaming9699]

Modern music is garbage, but that's actually because everybody composes on Sibelius.

[@instinctbrosgaming9699]

@@SikerScrapyard Contrary to popular belief, it takes months to complete a song because Sibelius keeps crashing whenever you open it, so you have to download an online fix every six hours.

[@HurricaneSA]

Hah. Compose? Nobody composes music these days. You open your DAW and tell the computer to give you a few chord progressions in whatever key you want. Once you find one you like then you tell the computer to create the chords, add a rhythm pattern, bass line and arpeggio. Now make a copy of the arpeggio, remove and/or add some notes to form a melody and boom, you're done.

[@HurricaneSA]

@@DJKinney Fair enough but I will say it is not an idea I just came up with by myself. Take a look on KZbin at most of the "How to produce with " and you'll be amazed how accurate I described what I see. I might not know much about producing but I do understand when people talk about plugins like Scaler, EZKeys, Captain Chords and so on.

[@rsimchik]

I've been lurking, but I lost my shit at "Captain Chords" for some reason.

[@HurricaneSA]

@@rsimchik Yup. The sad reality (and my point) is that it seems, at least according to what is portrayed on the "producer" channels here on YT, that it's all about getting folks to churn out garbage as fast as possible instead of them learning actual music theory. I dunno, maybe I'm just over thinking it.

[@godlaydying]

In between having to buy the music or hear it on the radio, and mp3 players, there were blank cassettes. There was a whole moral panic about how 'home taping is killing music' that was almost exactly the same as the one about downloading mp3s.

[@vaiyt]

"Home taping is killing the music industry. We left this side blank so you can help." - the Dead Kennedys when they were still cool

[@Ric-Phillips]

“Itsy bitsy teeny weeny yellow polka dot bikini.’ Your honour, the defence rests.

[@Neion8]

That lyric is the musical equivalent of a brain aneurysm.

[@gilespeterson6832]

Ric Phillips I like bananas because they have no bones >

[@caseyb1346]

Bird is the Word, ya'll.

[@blackhogarth4049]

And furthermore, "ooh ee, ooh ah ah, ting tang, walla walla bing bang."

[@Lochness19]

I feel like a lot of 60s songs would get ridiculed today for how corny they are. Most younger generations just aren't aware those songs existed because the only songs they know from that decade are pretty good like Paint It Black, Sound of Silence, Ring of Fire, Fortunate Son and Here Comes The Sun. That's not too say bad songs have gone extinct, Justin Bieber just released "Yummy", but all but his blindest fans seem to find it laughably bad and I doubt the song will have much legs once the hype of getting new music from a very popular artist like him wears off.

[@simP001]

I once found a comment under a Thoughty2 video which reads something along the lines of "Who needs school? I learned so much from this video instead!". I get frustrated every time I remember that one comment

[@mariejuku]

/god/ that makes me shudder

[@kaitlyn__L]

Christ. I’ve seen comments like that under actually-educational physics or maths channels. Not thinkpieces… ugh

[@imjustaguycalledsano]

As a person who is currently studying music. The dudes comparisons were bullshit already when he started mentioning artists in entirely different genres. Which disregards all the development that occurred through those times.

[@matthewbell9047]

Another thing to add to the list of misinformed misinformation. That "sampler" shown at 6:00 is a voltage sampler. It samples voltages. Not audio.

[@nyanbinarydisaster]

aw man that's fucking hilarious

[@keithmarlow7269]

@@nyanbinarydisaster Whats even more hilarious is that it IS an audio sampler (voltage controlled 8bit sampler)

[@fluffigverbimmelt]

Wait. Voltages aren't / can't be music?

[@SkigBiggler]

@@fluffigverbimmelt I believe that voltages were used in early synthesizer setups for triggering, an early version of MIDI effectively. But you're limited in the information you can get just using voltage

[@thepjup4507]

@@keithmarlow7269 lol its sad 220 people liked his comment when its completely wrong. only 10 liked yours and its right. what a sad world we live in

[@NeverTurnOffTheAmp]

I just love your videos. You're not afraid to "attack" other KZbinrs or public figures (of course not personally but based on their content) and you can perfectly explain why they are wrong. This quality is actually lacking these days, as everybody is conflating fact-based criticism with being "toxic" or "rude" and thereby are increasingly afraid of actually criticizing other people's work substantially. So anyways, thank you for your videos!

[@Killerbee4712]

I was born in the wrong generation. All I listen to everyday are church masses from 1500 years ago

[@NVRSE500]

Bro I just listen to Australian Aboriginal chants from 40,000 years ago. I was born in the wrong age of human civilisation

[@رزيئة]

Yo church masses are bangers tho even if you're not Christian. Ave Maria is just *chef's kiss*

[@ingridsantos7815]

@@رزيئة ,"Agni Parthene" is legendary

[@kevinjohnanand]

If we're talking about complex lyricism, compare Led Zeppelin's "Whole Lotta Love" to any Eminem song. As a fan of Led Zeppelin, there is no comparison there. Eminem's lyrics are far more complex and interesting. We can cherry pick this stuff all day.

[@marinewelsh9927]

K but compare Eminem to any project doseone or why? Has been in. No comparison. Listen to early cLOUDDEAD or Themselves, fucking mindblowing

[@arigadatred5395]

"Oops, my CD just slipped, and everyone just heard you let one rip" Poetry.

[@kevinjohnanand]

@@arigadatred5395 "You need cooling baby I'm not fooling I'm gonna send ya back to schooling" Profound. As I said, we can cherrypick all day.

[@arigadatred5395]

@@kevinjohnanand I should clarify I agree with your point, I just couldn't help myself lol, sorry if I was irritating. Hope you have a good day.

[@ChadKirk]

@@kevinjohnanand how is that profound

[@morbidmanatee115]

The problem with trying to make objective statements about *any* art being better or worse than another is that no matter how long you talk, how many technical terms you use, how deeply you analyze the pieces, all of your arguments can be destroyed with "but I like it." There are definitely principles of good art, but they're descriptive, not prescriptive. We look at the things humans tend to like and we look for similarities. And then we go "Hm, people seem to like this song with a rhythm more than they like the sound of me randomly throwing a box of cymbals around, I should keep that in mind." Understanding these principles and using them effectively can definitely help you craft something that a larger number of people will consider good. But it's not like there's some all-powerful council going "THOU SHALT ENJOY RHYTHM" and everyone else went "aw, I thought I liked random-box-of-cymbals guy, but I guess I was wrong!"

[@TallicaMan1986]

While I agree, I feel people are unable to talk smack about the things they like. I like a lot of watered pop music written by 10 people to ensure it's as simple as it can get. I know it isnt particularly smart music and the subject of the song most of the times is rather dumb as well. When people tend to think of things they like. They have to like 100% of what's going on and I dont think that's entirely true and not entirely honest with themselves and the people around them. This is the exact same phenomenon in Film. There are many many cinephiles that like shit movies for exactly that reason. The Room is probably the worse movie made with real effort. People love it, but know it isnt exactly intelligent. These people are honest. When I say I like something dumb. I'm not defending it even in the slightest because I'll never use this level of subjectivity to defend these things and as a musician who can crank out shit. I will never let another random person tell me what I cranked out first hand tell me it's good. Theres levels to it like everything in life.

[@spracketskooch]

I disagree, I think there are objective standards for all art. The problem is you're mistaking people's enjoyment of a piece of art the standard, therefore everyone has their own standards and there is no objective standard. But enjoyment of art has nothing to do with the objective quality of it. For example I like songs by Santigold, but I also like songs by TTNG. Using things like technical difficulty, originality, complexity, how it affects emotions, etc. It's very clear that TTNG's music is objectively better than Santigold's. It's the same thing as when your kid gives you a painting they did, and it brings more to your life than all the other paintings combined, but it's still nowhere near the quality of say a Rembrant. What is popular is not necessarily what's good. On a slightly different note, it's strange that TV used to be the same way as the modern music industry, filled with mediocre shows. Then people started taking chances and putting objectively good stuff out like Breaking Bad, and Game of Thrones(first 5 seasons) and lo and behold the good stuff rose to the top. It's almost like people aren't as dumb as executives think. Maybe if the music industry took more chances and assumed the audience wasn't a herd of idiots that can only accept what's tried and true, the objectively better artists might have a chance at crazy success. That said since the music industry has lost it's role as gatekeeper, there's a lot of good music out there but you just can't trust an algorithm to find it for you. I have a playlist on my channel called "good music" if anyone wants to check it out. Not everything on there is objectively amazing, but its a good starting point to hear a lot of music you probably haven't heard before.

[@spracketskooch]

@ Nope I don't. Shit is harmful to you, and I don't know what it tastes like but I assume it's not sweet. Ice cream isn't that harmful to you, and it's sweet which we're biologically wired to seek out and enjoy. Ice cream is objectively a better dessert than shit, regardless of whether you enjoy shit more. For any set of goals, there are objective standards for what's best to accomplish those goals. Experience is subjective, quality is not. I'm sorry but you just have to come to terms with the fact that your will does not determine quality. It's just one of those things that you were told when you were young by an authority figure and just accepted as truth because the majority of people were told and believe the same thing. Like that men are rewarded for sexual promiscuity and women are scorned for it, which I can get into if that's something you want.

[@spracketskooch]

@@bacicinvatteneaca I know you're being facetious, but we've all heard of the four chords that made a million right? Both the concept and the song by Porcupine Tree. Just to be clear, I never said all pop music, or pop in general is bad. It's a song by song analysis here. I honestly think that even the level of emotion a song can evoke is limited by it's objective quality. Like there's more emotional territory to explore in an odd timed jazz song than in a 4/4 pop song. You can argue that my bar of quality is too high, but you can't argue that there are an objective set of qualities by which all humans judge all music, otherwise we would actually enjoy a guy banging pots and pans around.

[@spracketskooch]

@@bacicinvatteneaca My mistake then, it's always kinda hard to tell the tone of a person from text. Especially when you're in defend your idea mode. Or maybe I'm just dumb and missed your point entirely, either way I apologize.

[@brachiosnores7829]

I must admit, I did watch thoughty2's video a while back and just took it pretty much at face value, as I know very little about music theory. Thank you for helping to educate me, and I'll be sure to try and be a little more discerning about titles like that in the future lol.

[@emdiar6588]

Modern music is so awful because... 1. It doesn't remind me of my youth. 2. I can't identify with anyone who has ever used the abbreviation ''gram' as a verb. 3. Young people are shallow and generally suck. 4. What was the question again? 5. Where did I leave my Crumhorn? 6. ....

[@biivamunner3122]

wait this isn't a letter

[@jonathanjohnson9611]

Exactly.lol it’s all BS

[@jonathanjohnson9611]

@The Stonefish Yeah because shallow adults don’t exist. It’s only the youth 🙄

[@GeteMachine]

6. "Music sucks today because I don't like the music marketed to, or popular among young girls, screaming fan girls are annoying to me. Music is dead." 7. "I grew up socialized to this genre from my parents and I liked this genre, so therefore maintream music sucks." 8. "The obscure indie band I like isn't mainstream now, so therefore music died." 9. "I can throw out names of already the go-to-names of classical artists or popular 70s band artists that I am pretending aren't mainstream despite everyone knowing the names of- to say music sucks because they aren't popular now." These 3 are also very common. Now its. "Cherrypicked articles or studies I take out of context, proves the music I like now, is better so therefore all my prejudices are factual objectivity."

[@user-gu9yq5sj7c]

I dislike people just bashing the present, but I think there were other reasons. Some are not so bad. Such as some modern songs sing just sing about promiscuity, vulgarity, drugs, violence, and bashing their ex. Also, some say too much repetition and too much autotune. But people should search for good songs.

[@thaconnection8201]

I'm glad I grew out of the whole "modern music is soulless garbage phase"

[@danielpatternson6149]

Me too. We have plenty of great modern music like The Weeknd, Haley Reinhart, Shawn Mendes, Barenaked Ladies (do they count?), Khalid, Ellie Goulding, Alessia Cara and so on and so forth.

[@HappyBeezerStudios]

I also grew out of the "genre x is bad, I only listen to y" phase. There is great (and bad) music in all kinds of styles and ages.

[@beeozan1426]

@@danielpatternson6149 Chosen Family is great and so is most other songs from that Rina Sawayama album it originally is in, highly recommend

[@danielpatternson6149]

@@beeozan1426 I’ve been meaning to check that out actually. The Lockdown Sessions got me interested in a bunch of artists I probably would have passed by on, had it not been for said album.

[@breadtailor4200]

Me too, it opened me up to so many new and interesting genres and my taste in music is now ever-changing and evolving to be more open minded and less of a gatekeeper to certain genres of music. I even now almost primarily listen to modern and more lesser known artists purely for the fact that their music sounds good to me regardless of genre or complexity. Thats not even to say that older music or more well known/"mainstream" artists and music is bad either, because I still listen to those more popular artists when certain artists and older well known music or artists I may not even like release a song that resonates with me or just simply feels good to listen to. People just seem to be so damn close minded and strongly opinionated on music to the point that they don't even consider that fact that music they don't like can still be good and enjoyable. Just because music is "bad" or "generic" it doesn't mean you cant enjoy it and even songs when viewed objectively from a quality standpoint that are deemed as "bad" music can still be enjoyed and all music is really subjective to the listener and shouldn't be judged under a objective standpoint just to prove a point in a ridiculous argument that has been going on since music was created probably. TLDR: music is ever changing and subjective. people need to be more open minded and stop gatekeeping and viewing music objectively to justify a stubborn approach to the landscape of music and its ever changing future and just enjoy what you enjoy. Goddamn is it really that hard??

[@DJstarrfish]

I think Vsauce did the best take on pop music in "Juvenoia" where he argued that pop music is getting more homogeneous but that's okay because it means it's getting better at what it's indended to be (i.e. catchy and short), and overall music has only gotten more experimental over time

[@Nemo_Anom]

That's a bad take. The purpose of music is to express something. Pop music is designed only to be a cash-grab earworm. It's not up to the same job. It's the difference between a chicken salad and cheetos. One is food the other ain't.

[@PanjaRoseGold]

Theo Smith 1. You can consume both of those, therefore they must both be food and likewise with pop and other genres. 2. He never argued that the music was good, just that it was doing what it was supposed to and doing it better than the pop of yesteryear. It’s not a “bad take”, it’s just you wanting to argue something the commenter never was implying to begin with.

[@jojbenedoot7459]

@@Nemo_Anom uh oh guys, KZbin commenter Theo Smith has set down the decree of what music is. Pack it in, everyone

[@voidoesminecrafta2706]

Theo Smith so your 10

[@almostthepointofnoreturn9403]

I think modern pop music is interesting, because they've pretty much nailed the formula for how to make the song go viral and popular.

[@OskarSvan]

For people that say that music is bad now, here are some bop makers: Jacob Collier, Vulfpeck, Cory wong, Bill Wurtz, Loney Dear, Veronica maggio, The Altogether, Voiceplay has some bops and I personally really like Bo Burnham.

[@runningwithscissors7780]

you wrote this a pretty long time ago, but i’m still excited to see vulfpeck on here! they’ve been a favorite of me and my dad for years, love their stuff

[@you_tubeslonelyheartsclubband]

I personally like Scary Pockets, they're a funk cover band, and Silk Sonic(Bruno Mars and Anderson .Paak).

[@LePeppino]

Very based of you to include Bill Wurtz. I agree tho, his tunes are refreshing, complex and catchy af.

[@chinchiIIa]

@@LePeppino actual facts, his music is good because anyone can listen to and enjoy it, but it also might be complex

[@nfdhje38743m]

jacob collier is mid

[@onlookerofthings6029]

The Beatles were out there with lyrics like "She loves you yeah, yeah, yeah" and "Beep beep, beep beep yeah" Powerful ✊😔

[@nikitahichoii482]

And "Obla-di obla-da live goes on, bruh!" dont forget that one!

[@matthewlachance3362]

Well if you go on r/unpopular opinion you’ll see a lot of people saying that they’re overrated af. They aren’t really famous for their talent they’re famous for the influence they had on the industry

[@devlintaylor9520]

@@chrishaake8126 yea people who listen to songs just for the lyrics should just read lyrics, music is about the sound

[@akshaydalvi1534]

My favorite - I am the egg man They are the egg men I am the walrus Goo goo g'joob, goo goo goo g'joob

[@subpar7404]

This comment thread makes me want to kill myself

[@morbid1.]

I find it funny when people refer to music from 60-70 by naming literally most popular 5 bands that are not even "pop" genre and compare it to some pop singers most people will not even remember 30 years later.

[@aronpuma5962]

Oh definitely. The biggest hit in America in 1969 was "Sugar" by the Archies. That song has been immortalized in some great Simpson's memes, but uh, not for its quality and dignity. It's certianly not better than America's biggest song of 2019: Old Town Road, which is also pop, and I find a lot less annoying at least, your mileage may vary, though I'd argue it's a lot more distinct a song anyways.

[@PuffyRainbowCloud]

@FuckOuttaHere You're partially right. There are two things called "pop music". There is the original definition; music popular during a certain period of time; and the newer definition which came about due to a long time of nearly all popular music sharing certain things in common; certain harmonic, melodic, lyrical rules which are still largely the same today as they were sixty years ago. Usually when people today talk about pop music they are referring to the latter; the musical style.

[@redgeoblaze3752]

Thoughty: "How do we scientifically measure music quality" Musicologists: "Step 1, Give up. Step 2, Grow up."

[@xCorvus7x]

That feels a bit like what linguists have (perhaps also) done long ago when they rejected prescriptivism and assumed the descriptivist position.

[@wm97ab]

Very simple. Did others feel it was worth making themselves?

[@crazydragy4233]

@@xCorvus7x Indeed. Though that made me stop, had to remember there are some descriptivists around x’d . Prescriptivist are louder by design.... Complaining always draws more attention than observations.

[@xCorvus7x]

@@crazydragy4233 Ah, yes, the vocal minorities. Though, as far as I understand it, descriptivism is the default in the field, so they'll be always around.

[@matthijsblomjous3671]

well looking at the comments I guess I'll throw my degree in music and technology in the trash because everyone is a musicologist or has a masters in music.

[@fatboysgarage7984]

I went to college for music and learned a lot, despite not finishing my degree. The one thing Aaron said in his video that I agree with is that we're saturated with music and sometimes (not always) it does take some digging to find the good stuff. One thing he didn't mention is that what one person might deem to be "good" another might say is "trash". For example, my best friend and I have a lot of similarities in our music taste. However, there's a lot of death metal and electronic music that she can't stand. Just like she listens to a lot of rap that I can't stand. There's really no "right or wrong" genre of music. It's all about personal taste.

[@KelnelK]

This is what happens every time a journalist writes an article about a scientific paper without actually talking to someone who knows the academic field well enough to explain why the paper doesn't "scientifically prove" anything.

[@onkelpappkov2666]

Scientist: "Would you like me to explain--" Journalist: "Nah nigga I'm good, I'm smart." **SCIENCE SAYS TUMBOR KILLS MUSIC**

[@badasunicorn6870]

Admittedly, the paper (according to tantacruel, I'm not gonna pretend I red it) had it's own flaws by assessing musical quality only by the pure sound data, as opposed to the musical data.

[@alazrabed]

A couple years ago I stumbled on an article claiming that "Extraterrestrial life exists, and it's been proved mathematically". After digging a little and reading the gist of the quoted paper, it turned out to be completely misleading. The main idea put forth was a rearranging of a relation (the Drake equation) that tied your intuition of whether life was out there or not with the corresponding probability of life appearing somewhere in the universe and developing into a technological civilization. Nothing close to a mathematical proof -- but then again, you can't sell if you don't pimp it, right?

[@storerestore]

It's also one of the more benign examples of applying AI or machine learning to bad data to answer incorrectly posed questions. Unfortunately, similarly haphazard techniques are used elsewhere (to draw similarly ridiculous conclusions) to decide which friends' social network posts someone is likely to be interested in reading, what ads will most successfully manipulate someone into giving money away and how likely it is that someone is a criminal.

[@ten_tego_teges]

You'd be surprised to discover how many scientific papers are rubbish.

[@casperchristiansen2458]

This comment is for the Aphex Twin appreciation.

[@emmettm.975]

Hell yeah!

[@lohollywood1f428]

Appreciation noted!

[@64_bit80]

ayyyyyyy 😎

[@alivenotwell]

thanks mate

[@Phantasma999]

Aphex Twin is appreciated.

[@WolfCoder]

The music didn't really die, it just melted in Sibelius

[@elvellarambles9151]

WolfCoder 🤣🤣🤣

[@gameguy73]

I wish people would stop using "one study" to justify their argument. One study is just that, one study. It proves nothing until the results are repeated repeatedly replicated. In this case the single study was so bafflingly flawed, I'm surprised anyone would use it at all to back up an argument.

[@yurismgodzilla4866]

I feel like the original research paper only intended to ascertain differences or trends, not make a judgement of quality. Then, of course, somebody looking to write a clickbaity article skimmed it and drew their own conclusions based on nothing in particular.

[@marmolejomartinezjoseemili9043]

the problem is that theres no "quality" in music cause quality is how efficient a thing is at doing their intended job and music has many purposes and many have the purpose off expression so only the artist can decide if their music is expressing them efficiently some do it for fun so that also comes to the artist to decide only music done to sell has a clear and not emotional quality measurment

[@dakat5131]

That seems to happen with a lot of papers. Someone will set out to document findings on one specific thing under certain circumstances with the experiment details laid out, and then later someone will read it and tout it as if it's a definitive answer on the subject. Even if it means misinterpreting the results.

[@simondalzell1965]

I'm a French guy who works in music. I didn't realize timbre was pronounced the French way. I feel silly.

[@silentstrike220]

Well it depends on where you live, here it's pronounced (tam-bre) but I don't think anywhere is it called (tim-bre)

[@WilliamAndrea]

It's a bit different. In French it's /tɛ̃bʀ/ "tim-br", in English /ˈtæmbər/ "TAM-bər".

[@simondalzell1965]

@@WilliamAndrea I wish IPA were more commonly taught in school. I've been singing in choirs since I was very little but never got a proper lesson on it, and I keep finding situations where it would be useful as hell :/

[@mccalltrader]

Y’all should hear how that there word is pro-nounced here in Texas Boy howdy, it’s different!

[@ryuuji159]

aparently is one of these words that is from latin and pronounced mostly equally in most languages

[@justwonnowimlost]

why compare the golden handful of older music that has survived with the piles of new music that hasn't been sorted through in the long term?

[@LiamNajor]

Independent artists or people messing around on laptops probably account for 90% or more of the music on earth at this point. The barrier of entry is far lower then it has ever been.

[@TTFMjock]

Because that golden handful no longer exists in mass-market music today. There is no Led Zepp today. There is no equivalent of a Stevie Wonder, a Dylan, a Marvin Gaye, etc. You get a thimble of water in a desert today. The best material from all of 2010 to 2020 would probably stand poorly against the top 40 in a bad month any time from 1965 to 1975.

[@TTFMjock]

@@justwonnowimlost I mean, sure, that's obvious. Oldheads dig the past. But that's a different thing from saying "studios today are pushing 4-chord pop with extremely derivative melodies and no-talent (but well-connected) artists, and dumbing down the public. This has nothing to do with nostalgia. Consider that no one really talks about "Doggie in the Window" or the "Disco Duck" in a nostalgic way. They talk about the Golden Age of Rock from 1966-1976, after which most people acknowledge a gradual decline throughout the late 70s through about 2000 (people differ on the details) and after 2010, pretty much every active music listener observes a plummeting of quality.

[@fobusas]

If it was survivorship bias, my spotity playlist wouldn't be so lopsided from 60-80's and barely anything from the last decade. Or is good modern music really obscure and I suck at finding it?

[@jetison333]

@@fobusas More like the way music is generally written has changed, and your tastes are still "in the past" so to say. Im not saying its bad, its just different.

[@Alex-cw3rz]

I find it hilarious that the study went to 2010, it highlights the short sightedness of the study and this kind of claim. As 2010 and the years previous is not particularly known for bad music, and it is after the 90s which was known for a bit of a dip in quality in certain genres. Maybe in 2010 people were complaining about Adele, but now that would sound ridiculous. And now in 2024 we have people complaining about whoever and maybe in a decade we will find that ridiculous too.

[@stockicide]

People usually attack this argument from the angle of "modern music isn't that bad" rather than "most old music wasn't actually very good or complex." Pop songs from the twenties and Motown singles are largely just 2 minutes of repeated choruses. Ditto for many of Sinatra's hits. We remember the good stuff and the rest doesn't get passed down, making older music seem better. It's the difference between listening to the radio in the 60's where one out of every ten songs was great, and listening to a classic rock station today that only plays the stuff that's stood the test of time, back-to-back constantly.

[@marmolejomartinezjoseemili9043]

but eevn then complexity =/= quality, in art there is no real objective quality

[@Daz912]

Ok. We just had an entire decade of music between 2010 and 2020 that was objectively worse than say 1970 to 1980.

[@fredrikhallstrom8639]

This is such a good point.

[@keyboardstalker4784]

@@Daz912 shut up boomer

[@AlexCab_49]

You got a point. Even today people already think 00s music was good because the songs we like are what het remembered and other songs don't.

[@littleferrhis]

Bob Dylan and Led Zepplin never made a number one hit, I don’t even think they ever made a top 10 hit. Smells Like Teen Spirit only made it to number 6 on the pop charts. One of the most influential albums of the 1960s, Pet Sounds by The Beach Boys, was a complete commercial flop, despite being made by a commercially successful band. In other words the music you remember as being popular or being great from that era really weren’t pop artists. Pop music generally doesn’t make the trends, it rides them until the next thing becomes popular. The only real exception to this was the Beatles, which is one of the more surprising things.

[@_LastYearsMan]

Bob Dylan didn't even have a number one album until 1974 with Planet Waves!

[@AaronKaiMCDNLD]

i mean Abbey Road by the beatles had mixed reception back at 1970 but due to time and rising interest on the beatles in todays world it was heralded as one of the best Beatles Album

[@pryan455]

Jimi Hendrix was never realy on the charts except for all along the watch tower, but the show where he lights his guitar on fire is called the Monterrey Pop Festival. I think we're talking about music that plays on the radio here

[@MattMcIrvin]

I was wondering how much of this was bias caused by the fact that a sample of significant music is going to pick up a lot of contemporary stuff that is pretty ephemeral, but only the best-remembered music from past decades.

[@KKSmith]

@@MattMcIrvin Well I just picked 1975 as a random year to check the top 10. Sure there is some fluff there ... Captain and Tenille "Love Will Keep Us Together" were kind of riding that "Bennie and the Jets" piano pop sound. Glenn Campbell is there with Rhinestone Cowboy which is a pretty gormless country pop hit. Before the Next Teardrop Falls from Freddy Fender is something that hasnt really stood the test of time. Same with My Eyes Adored You from Frankie Valli (although I think it would be unfair to call Valli fluff) But then you have Elton John, David Bowie, The Eagles, and Earth Wind and Fire. 4 hugely significant artists who write, play, and perform their own music (yeah yeah Elton John + Taupin). So where would their equivalents be in the modern top 10? Halsey? Post Malone? Maroon 5?

[@NoCareLuke]

It's funny that Thoughty references Lady Gaga, who moonlights as a vocalist for a Led Zepplin cover band, the original band of which he compared her to. Ironic.

[@kencur9690]

Indeed, ironic, though precisely because it lends validity to his argument...

[@bloodyhell8201]

@@kencur9690 how?

[@Waspinmymind]

@@bloodyhell8201 because his fee fee say so. This dude rants about how he is 100% right about modern music sucking. Check out his recents it’s just emotional backlash after emotional backlash.

[@estebanb7166]

@@fredriksvard2603 Not really...

[@nolajohnson5900]

@@fredriksvard2603 John Paul Jones is actually a great musician, too.

[@aspacelex]

Even if there was a reason to care about pop music, there has never been a time in all of human history where you were able to find an artist fitting your interests as closely as you can now.

[@cheopys]

I remember when Rick Beato did those Spotify countdowns. The first few were just excuses for him to brag about his ear training, and he'd exclaim that he loves pop music. He doesn't say that anymore. He admits now that pop music stinks.

[@aspacelex]

@@cheopysI've no idea who that is. Is their opinion on music supposed to mean something?

[@argi0774]

@@aspacelex In the end, there is the fact that pop music is supersimple talent free crap

[@aspacelex]

@@argi0774 0 iq take.

[@argi0774]

@@aspacelex correct, pop music is pretty much iq free

[@lonelyseaproductions2337]

I've been a music teacher for over 20 years. Generally speaking when I write out a song for a private student from any time before the 90's it takes several pages, they have several different chord voicings, multiple different melodies, time changes, etc. Many of todays songs I can fit in one line on one page....That doesn't even take into consideration that musicians from back in the day often performed their songs in the studio together, didn't have pitch correction, limitless computer takes, etc. I'm not trying to debate the video, I'm just trying to contribute to the conversation with my personal experience on the subject. It's entirely possible that there are more great musicians out there than ever, unfortunately it doesn't seem like the best ones have the corporate backing, radio play, or are anywhere near the top of the charts.

[@TR-ru7wl]

There's plenty of good musicians in the popular sphere, Kendrick and Kanye come to mind.

[@TR-ru7wl]

@balerina rockarolla excellent observation, great argument, consider my opinion changed

[@breedlejuice8691]

joshrm “Music that isn’t in my preferred genre is bad.” Yes, that song had a nice riff, but it does not fall under modern pop trends. The current convo is pop, it seems like you just want to shill your fav rock band.

[@spacefighting8505]

@joshrm You can not shit on Kendrick or Kanye and proceed to recommend that lame ass metal song lmao. Technicality doesn't equal more complex songwriting, more interesting composition and better sound production

[@spacefighting8505]

@joshrm Complex songwriting isn't the same as technicality m8, Paganini's Caprices are far more technically demanding than Bach's Violin Sonatas, but Bach's pieces are far more intricate and complex. Just because something is hard to phisically perform it doesn't mean that it's better or more interesting from a composition standpoint

[@sirspookybones1118]

I was born in the right Generation so I can listen to all sorts of music from any recorded era. Especially last decade with Animals as leaders, Muse, Arctic monkeys, Trivium, insert competent band/artist here

[@clemensmoeller4549]

I feel the same, but I still wish I could have seen Metallica live sometime between 1986 and 1990.

[@sirspookybones1118]

@@clemensmoeller4549 yeah I'd like to see some older bands live in their prime, but at least we got recordings for a bunch of really good ones

[@mauve9266]

When going through my ‘wrong generation’ phase *shudders* I always fixated on what I’d never get to experience, and whilst I’d still have loved to have seen certain artists live or be at particular events, I can’t say that I’d trade that for the insane access to music I have now. It’s actually surreal and I’m so grateful for it. I highly doubt my taste in music would be as diverse as it is W/o the internet

[@miguelmanzano3960]

That's okay for me but it's crap the the whole society liked the modern music and i don't so i always feel alone especially in the pandemic And my only friend that love old music i can't see him no more i always remember talking to him about old music and we're the only one who can relate we're obsessed with queen and always singing the bands song and everyone is looking at us lol

[@Liggliluff]

Yes; with the modern age, you have access to a lot of music. Sadly not all; there are music I'm trying to get, but can't find neither a legal or illegal way to get my hands on. Although songs do show up on KZbin, but I was hoping for nicer 320 MP3 or FLAC quality for storing in my music library, not crappy KZbin quality.

[@leahliddle324]

"how did we get from Led Zeppelin to Lady Gaga" totally different genres. We went from Led Zeppelin to the Arctic Monkeys (which is like... not a HUGE step down imo) and went from Pat Boone to Lady Gaga (a pretty massive step up imo).

[@Cabecadeplanta]

And tbh nostalgia aside artic monkeys has more interesting lyrics because tell me why stairway to heaven is good but makes my brain melt from how boring it

[@irishakita]

@@Cabecadeplanta yo don't rag on Stairway to Heaven

[@stefanpredoi4564]

Honestly there's plenty of current bands which have tremendous instrumental skill and great songwriting. A great recent example is Converge, responsible for some of the most aggressive and fierce yet complex metal music of the past 20 years. I'm pretty sure they could "out-play" LZ. Similarly, I'm sure that Tigran Hamasyan could "out-play" a lot of older jazz pianists. That's not the point of music though - it's about artistic expression, and that's something that's very tied to time and place. Also Gaga is a fantastic songwriter, at least on her "classic" material.

[@TruthDoesNotExist]

Keep in mind that Rock was very popualr at the time and was mainstream, if you turn on th radio now there are very few current rock artists that are popular

[@HedeccaTamer]

I love that type of argument, and the ONLY reason they do it is because "Lady Gaga is worse than Led Zeppelin" is really hard to argue with. If they were honest with it, their point would fall flat. Elvis to Justin Bieber sounds bad, but when you consider It's just hot guys singing songs other people wrote to make teenagers horny, they're the same The Beatles to The 1975? Two charismatic bands that dominated and influenced a whole decade at least Whitney to Beyonce, Madonna to Miley, Jackson 5 to BTS The only one who's never been replaced is Prince, and the world accepts that that just can't happen

[@mariojr.mabutas6741]

As a musician for 20 years, and most of my musician peers agree, pop music, especially after 2010's to now, are so shallow, musically and lyrically, and almost have no melodic beauty, as compared to the pop songs pre-2010 down to the 50's.... I don't need science or online debates to know/feel that in my musical heart.