Tech Talk: Toyota Supra, Ruined by Bump Steer?!?!

[@entangled5342]

Exactly the critique that we (track day guys) need. Info from a firsthand hardcore user about problems like bumpsteer in the Supra or overheating 675LTs is invaluable. No car is perfect but at least our eyes are open.

[@RobertMitchell]

Every car has it quirk now doubt and we find it quick haha

[@larssonk22]

@@RobertMitchell Great video Robert, how much have you sunk into this project and willing to? Also, would the BMW have the same problem?

[@NoToBigBro]

@@larssonk22 Toyota/BMW same suspension geometry. I'd be surprised if it has excessive bumpsteer. Stock 2019 Z4 did 7:55 Nurburgring lap time and the Supra did 7:52 lap time, which would be very difficult to achieve with excessive bumpsteer on a 97 inch wheelbase car. SportAuto has a plenty of videos of stock Supra/Z4 on the track... I saw nothing unusual. I'm familiar with front-end bumsteer on BMWs when you lower the car too much, but I've never seen/heard of rear bumpsteer from reasonably lowering a BMW. I would love to see a video of Supra bumpsteer.

[@RobertMitchell]

NoToBigBro thats actually not correct. The car can still be drivin quick it just feels like shit. 100% has bumpsteer issues and I’ll show graphs etc on next vid

[@RobertMitchell]

Ash YES!

[@Repols]

More of these please, Robert. Very informative to someone who's interested in racing and everything involved, but isnt in the industry.

[@RobertMitchell]

We will try and do more of them. They’re my favorite to make as well

[@Shady97342]

​@@RobertMitchell I like these as well. More suspension and alignment setup talks would be interesting to listen to. How is the optimal camber/caster/toe going to be different on a RWD car vs FWD vs AWD? What about rebound and compression? How can all these things be used to tune a cars balance? Also the Sub-7 up series was great. Hope to see another like that with a new car (I don't know if the TDI counts haha!)

[@AdityaSingh-pg9iy]

@@RobertMitchell I recently watched a Video Option video on supra max speed test. The test driver there Mr Akira Iida also reported that the Supra has some problems with the stability at the rear. kzbin.info/www/bejne/hJqbpYBprp2Airs You can watch that part at 22:20 in the video.

[@sjoroverpirat]

@@RobertMitchell This was an absolute blast. Could you do one on all the BMW 3-series from old to new?

[@kevinfunk83]

Robert Mitchell no wonder everyone is turning them into drag cars and drift cars!!!

[@QUACKJONG]

I wouldn't mind you doing more videos about explaining mechanical things like toe in and out, camber and all the different things that play a part when driving on the track. The way you explain it is very easy to follow and I think it's something a lot of people would enjoy. Something like you did with Tim recently about the Cup2 R tyres.

[@Michael-yz4mc]

Yeah that would be great!

[@RobertMitchell]

We will do for sure more. Hope you’ve been enjoying them:-)

[@smilepermile888]

Every time I watch your videos Robert, I always learn many new things from them. Its not the typical vlogger approach of 'What colour should I wrap for my car?' or 'GETTING ARMYTRIX EXHAUST FOR MY LAMBORGHINI!! *INSANELY LOUD**' or '5 things I HATE about ___ car' etc. I know i'm regurgitating what other people have written in the comments section, but thank you sincerely for these very technical insights in the cars that you drive, out of your busy schedule. There's another automotive youtube channel called 'Savagegeese' who in his reviews, he takes the cars up on a two post lift to discuss about their suspension designs, cooling/aero flow and also weighs them on his corner-weight measuring device to find out their cross-weight as well as the overall weight distribution. He posted a couple of A90 Supra videos and I was surprised that he has not mentioned about the bumpsteer/alignment issue that you have been getting. Perhaps the roads/track that he's driven them on were relatively more flat than the undulating+camber filled roads you've been testing your Supra on. He mentioned on his instagram that he got his hands on the 2021 model year Supra with the updated B58, so i'm curious to see if he's going to talk about those issues you've covered too. Keep up the great work.

[@981porsche3]

smilepermile: Bump-steer would be more prevalent on high-speed roads or tracks with more elevation change (i.e. places that cause more and faster suspension travel), so I’d imagine this problem would be really noticeable on the Nurburgring.

[@smilepermile888]

@@981porsche3 Yes, I think you're right. Savagegeese went to Summit Point Motorsports Park which most likely doesn't have as much elevation and camber changes per mile than the Nordschleife does. It appears to have shorter straights than the Nordschleife does too. By the way, great driving on your videos, nice one!

[@sigmaprojects]

What he was describing should happen anywhere that you have high braking zones, it shouldn't be only where elevation changes are, but for sure those would make it worse. It's just any situation where the suspension will go from being compressed to uncompressed. So on a fast straight into hard braking and a turn then back on throttle would make the rear end feel like it had a mind of its own since it would be going through dramatic toe changes several times. At least that's how I'm understanding it.

[@Krushe]

Toyota said bump steer, BMW said character.

[@WyFoster]

Look at the e30. Over an inch of bump steer through out the suspension travel. Or 25mm. One of the most fun cars to drive and very successful.

[@AmirPomen]

To give fun driving feel in stock car average driver... Often advanced and pro drive have specific preference and definately wont left the suspension geometry stock...

[@xo_danihn]

@@WyFoster the most successful production car winning races ever untill now

[@mr_exia]

@@xo_danihn ...is the Porsche 911.

[@stefanschopf8408]

The suspension of Bmw is different

[@AgriFarmModelsTV]

Can’t beat an honest review vs the continuously satisfied youtube “influencers”

[@YoutubeAreJewz]

Agri Farm Models love this comment 😎100%

[@ChrisDrift]

I've got one and I completely agree with how weird and twitchy the rear end feels. The strange thing is that the rear end isn't ACTUALLY stepping out when you feel this "twitch". I've done a lot of drifting in a lot of different cars (from a 350Z to a supercharged Audi R8, and currently compete in British Drift Championship) so I'm pretty familiar with how a car really feels when its about to slide and when its sliding. In this car you get that initial feeling of it starting to rotate... but then nothing actually happens. Even on track when I pumped the rear tyres up to 45 psi to make it slide around more easily and then intentionally tried to upset the balance, its hard to actually get it to start sliding properly. Of course you can make it break loose, but I'm just saying it takes way more effort than that initial twitchy feeling would have you believe. So I think there's a chance it might have been an intentional choice from Toyota/BMW. I think their logic could have been that It makes the car feel "playful" to people who aren't particularly experienced with drifting or track driving - but without it actually being dangerous and making people oversteer everywhere.

[@RobertMitchell]

I think you'll be interested to see the next couple videos on this topic then. We have some cool stuff coming out. I also do not think this was planned rather a screw up as they are changing it on new cars

[@KosmicHRTRacingTeam]

ChrisDrift i have a really difficult time believing BMW would dial this into a chassis, it makes no sense. The people that buy them are on the enthusiast side of things, If they start to feel like the back end has too much rear end oversteer at corner entry or mid corner, the driver will intuitively adjust his throttle and steering (counter steer). If that happens, you are further disrupting the balance of the car, the chassis, suspension, brakes and tires are now doing something totally at odds with one another and you are going to either kill your lap time or end up backwards or in a guard rail OR you are going to learn slowly and form really poor driving techniques. This can’t be something that was invented to take place. Hope they get it figured out as it appears the car has a lot of promise.

[@liquidsoftpc]

Drifters: It's a free real estate.

[@4kstreamer44]

Elaborate

[@BorjaOjeda]

I’m just a regular car guy with no knowledge whatsoever about mechanical setups or anything like that, but I enjoyed this technical explanation so much more than I anticipated. I have no clue how suspension really works, but this was so informative and accessible at the same time. Congrats on that, I mean it - making alien concepts accessible and understandable to an audience is an art form in itself. And this I know because I teach for a living.

[@RobertMitchell]

So glad to hear you’re relating! That makes it fun. I’ll keep doing some intros to certain concepts and hope it can help some

[@BorjaOjeda]

@@RobertMitchell definitely looking forward to those!!!

[@jeppewerring]

Like someone already said, a comparison between the Supra and the Z4 would be really interesting.

[@Orcawhale1]

Then why havn't you checked out the dozen of videos and articles that do exactly this? Or hell go down to the locale dealership, and check for BMW parts? I tell you why, cause your not that interested at the end of a day.

[@m33pr0r]

This is maybe a bit irrelevant, but the car behaves exactly as you describe in Gran Turismo Sport. Tons of rear end control loss. Interesting to see how accurate the game was, and also disappointing for the platform. Thanks for the video

[@optionrush5050]

Don’t rely on that game trust me you’ll end up on the wall but yea good point

[@tommytenzo]

I hate driving it in the game. I always crash it, it’s so hard to control. And I don’t have that problem with the others

[@RobertMitchell]

Sounds accurate then 🤣🤣

[@AJZulu]

Yeah. Same. Unfortunately you can't feel the slip under your ass to appreciate you losing control.

[@chuckcribbs3398]

I drove the Supra on the Nurburgring in GT Sport and it was all over the place! I thought it was the tires I chose, regular sport tires, not racing. It was difficult to keep it from floating around. Now I know why!

[@chuckcribbs3398]

You are the only vlogger who has pointed this out. It’s crazy no one has commented about this!

[@chris_mk5supra]

because it's not as bad as they are saying it, some time attack driver have talk about this, seems he is the only one to cry about it

[@DavelyDriven]

Thanks for another great video, Robert! I appreciate how straight forward you explain technical things and I learn something new every time. You wouldn't believe how much this carries over to a sim driver and setup

[@RobertMitchell]

Yes I’m hearing that the sim set ups are really accurate and true to real world!!!

[@supernovaf1]

@@RobertMitchell Do you think that the suspension geometry has anything to do with the Japanese love of drifting perhaps?

[@DavelyDriven]

@@RobertMitchell I think my 6:40 avg in a GT3 or similar car for Nordschleife tourist lap times on Assetto Corsa servers are predominanty due things Misha and yourself have said about tuning for The Ring.

[@DavelyDriven]

Holy shit, I just realized I've been a sim driver for over 5 years now....bonkers

[@doozernelson]

@Robert Mitchell Thank you. I recently drove a Supra for a team and it was the first time for both driver and car at the track. Bumpsteer wasn't in my mind when trying to describe what was happening but you nailed it. Thank you and look forward to seeing what you guys come up with to help solve this issue.

[@Tristan.R.J.M]

And here we are. New geometry is made and mounted. All we need now is a vid of it going round the ring. The conclusion was powerful Robert, especially because it indeed did happen. Nice work from you, Verkline and all involved.

[@mortenravnsns8439]

I'd love to see Robert do a Supra vs. BMW Z4 comparison and hear his opinion.

[@RobertMitchell]

It think that would be a lot of fun!

[@felixyang386]

it's been over a year. still looking forward to some update video about GR Supra from you guys.

[@981porsche3]

@Robert Mitchell: I don’t know about the Supra specifically, but companies do make toe links (tie rods) with bump steer kits which more closely aligns the pivot points of the toe arms with the pivot points of the lower control arms (which is how you fix bump steer on cars with a McPherson Strut suspension). As you said, this is a common problem on cars that have been lowered (like a race car, for example), and that’s how you can solve it with an aftermarket solution. Also, bump-steer would be more prevalent on high-speed roads or tracks with a lot of elevation change (i.e. places that cause more and faster suspension travel), so I’d imagine this problem would be really noticeable on the Nurburgring! Here is a video on bump steer and roll steer, so you (and others) can visualize the geometry of bump steer: kzbin.info/www/bejne/hmOzinWwfZV0j80 Usually, as you mentioned, car manufacturers design the bump steer to not cross over from toe in to toe out during bump and rebound. It is a more common problem with race cars because, they are often lowered, but also because race cars usually have a toe out alignment on the front to help with turn-in-something you really never do on a street car alignment because it makes the car feel more “darty,” especially with the crowning of most public roads. That makes bump steer problems a lot more prevalent on dedicated track cars. However, the fact that the problem is on the back with the Supra is really surprising. Anyway, great video, as usual! I can’t believe they made a sports car with so much bump steer right from the factory 🙄

[@giorgosb123]

Very nice breakdown with simple words underlining the problems of each car showing that you have deep knowledge, unlike the majority of youtubers

[@RobertMitchell]

Thank you!!!

[@FreestylerAlbert]

I think these are the videos what can give you and edge over Misha. So you can explain these things (and show) really well and point out the technical things. You invest time in it to show how it works. + a honest opinion makes the whole video better. I wish you would have the same detailed video about all your cars. Good and bad things too.

[@tonycarpaccio9550]

FreestylerAlbert it’s not about getting an “edge over” Misha man. I understand what you are saying and I really enjoy Robert’s technical knowledge and deep insight which differs from Misha’s vlogs, but I don’t like the way you phrased that.

[@FreestylerAlbert]

@@tonycarpaccio9550 I ment explain wise. Read the whole sentetence not just the 2 words.

[@dinodzinic9008]

@@FreestylerAlbert dude above is right, everything he said went right over ur head lol

[@koraxi8958]

No slight to misha, his enthusiasm for the ring is contagious. Not to mention showing you not only how to make the best of your TF at the ring but the facilities available near the Nordschliefe. I discovered Robert through Misha. However I subscribed to Rob's channel AND hit the bell icon. I dont usually do that😂. Appreciate what you do Rob💪.

[@TheRichardmintern]

I love the way you explain things Robert. Thank you.

[@RobertMitchell]

Youre welcome!!

[@futte2303]

Wow just wow. So good with a honest opinion You just keep impress me 👍

[@hindsite275]

futte2303 not an opinion, it is fact. That’s why his videos are great. 👍

[@mohamedbassiouni8462]

Yes that’s actually the content that I want It’s helping me in my I’m part of a team that participate in formula student uk and this actually helping a lot Thank you and keep this content going ❤️

[@carlosfajardo7921]

Thank you for an honest review of the Supra , all magazines and KZbin reviewers are afraid to say anything negative about this car.

[@DylanT99]

I find it unlikely BMW/Toyota would have allowed such a bump steer sensitive design to manifest from multibody simulation all the way to series production vehicles.. Are the build sequence numbers of the problematic Supras close together? A possible cause may be, tolerance stack up across the suspension hardpoints, combined with maturity/variation of the child parts as they ramp up production. Additionaly the lowered ride height could exaggerate the issue further. Have you disconnected the damper and measured the rear axle geometry through its travel? Is the rear axle isolated? Intersting to see the bushing design, as shortfalls in subframe bushing Z-stiffness could lead to significant axle movement under 'spirited' driving. I suggest you raise the issue with Toyota, and if enough people have an issue with it they will follow their business processes to resolve the problem. Interesting to hear your experience on this, as I have seen issues like this pop up at various prestigious OEM's in the past.

[@spinnetti]

why not just run some spacers on the tie rod end to change the bump curve (after plotting it).

[@383Spec3]

I have heard this from a Supra owner, but he isn't a track guy so I took it with a grain of salt. So good to hear an honest review of the car and it's issues. Keep the videos going, all of us track guys and racers enjoy them very much! Hoping someday to make it over to Apex and get some taxi laps and rental laps at the 'ring.

[@XenonG]

It's almost like the car was engineered to have a 4 cylinder block instead of a 6 cylinder, but needed to stick a 6 cylinder suddenly and didn't have enough time to redevelop/balance for new heavier front end...

[@Drift13b88]

Japan has a 4cyl model, not sure if exporting to other countries yet.

[@ScReamOut93]

@@Drift13b88 ya it is. at least us and germany. and it seems to be received better than the inline 6

[@brtf]

@@ScReamOut93 I think all of europe, Norway is getting it too

[@MrRockrazer]

@@Drift13b88 The US is getting the 4cyl in this next revision, but its set up to be a GT car, smaller breaks, softer suspension changes, much less HP

[@DontPanicDear]

Enjoyed this thanks Robert. From my experience with BMW, stupid soft rear subframe bushes with big gaps in them cause this too! Horrible feeling at speed! NHV on non M cars was the culprit. Fitting the four solid rubber bushings from M3/5 totally cured it. The steering was transformed, once the slop was taken out of the rear.

[@steadyred1832]

I've got an M140i and sometimes the rear end feels disconnected from the car, I suspected the rear subframe bushes.

[@DontPanicDear]

Steady Red That’s a lot of the reason yes. Have a look on babybmw.com forum, where this issue has been covered in great detail 👍🏻

[@Johnacles]

Such a great video Robert. From a different end of the spectrum but when I first picked up my E36 my control arm bushings were so flogged it had MAJOR toe change mid-corner, all fixed now but confirms suspicions I had about the Supra. In my half hour drive of a Supra (several months ago now) I didn't diagnose this problem, but it was definitely a difficult car to trust on the road. Felt great, as you said, when the car was loaded but definitely 'loose' under brakes and interestingly when only driven at 6/10 it wasn't very pleasant either. So great to hear the reason behind it.

[@RobertMitchell]

yes shot business will make a horrible car to drive

[@jasonyoung6420]

Robert: "Let's talk about facts" Also Robert: Provides eleven minutes and thirty two seconds of conjecture with no backup I'm not trying to defend the Zupra, I 'm looking for the facts. Providing alignment specs as received, and since you are noting bump steer, toe figures at rest, fully loaded, partially loaded & negatively loaded while on the stock suspension setup, then provide those figures again for whatever modified suspension setup you are running now is what would have made your conjecture facts. Saying "the rear feels twitchy on lift off or hard braking" without any corroboration/data isn't a fact, it's conjecture/opinion. Additional note: the Zupra has a "50:50" weight distribution, however more than half of that I-6 is forward of the front axle, that isn't helping under braking, as it will make the rear lighter than if it were inboard, hence my suggestion to check it negatively loaded and provide the numbers. When I look at the engine bay sans-plastic cover, it makes me think somewhere in development Toyota had planned to go with a version of their V6TT, but nixed it for cost savings (or I-6 fanboi love) during production. I think it would have been a better handler with the V6TT, as more of the weight would have been inside the wheelbase, but that's just my opinion.

[@hstevefrancis1003]

yes I had the same question about this vid, too. They state supra had the bump steering "feelings" and twitchy on weight transfer, but gave no scientific examination. I didn't see any strong evidence on this video

[@DanielGonzzz]

I have no idea how this video or the McLaren video popped up on my feed but I'm glad it did. Quality content, thank you.

[@RobertMitchell]

I’m glad it did too!!!!

[@enzo1317]

It might be worth looking into the rear subframe mounts. I have an e92 335i with factory squishy lemforder bushings which are known to cause a wondering rear end, but plan on upgrading to M3 or solid bushings in the future which is supposed to be a big improvement. I'm not familiar with the Supra's set up but it might have something similar going on.

[@dawn-moon]

Same thing I felt when I went for a test drive with the first GT86 to be honest. On the Internet everyone seemed in love with the lively back ( for drifts with it's power limitations I suspect ) but it didn't feel confident in high speed corners where you build load into the exterior wheels of a corner.

[@BryanHeitkotter]

Insightful. Given that we know the Supra uses a unique combination of BMW suspension parts, one wonders if excessive rear bump steer is also present on any BMWs, like the Z4 or M2. I would imagine the Supra rear subframe (which as you know has an effect on geometry) is also from the BMW parts bin. And if this much bump steer exists on some BMWs as well, I wonder why it took the Supra for the problem to become apparent. In cases like this, thank goodness for well engineered aftermarket solutions.

[@tylersim9025]

2 different types of car owners lol

[@JDR1971]

Rob, I love this shit! Thank you for talking about suspension geometry and driving dynamics. The Pista vids were great and very informative as well. My back ground is driving solid axle vehicles used in rock crawling and general off road use. Bump steer is probably the biggest issue to deal with on a rig that is used for both rock crawling and highway use. To design a suspension system and take into account ackerman, scrub radius, instant center, roll center, anti squat, anti dive, the toe in or out you want it's a massive mine field of information overload. I love nerding out on this stuff! BTW, Mr. Tim Burton is going to come around soon I presume. I would love to see you guys do a "pod cast" style video and just talk about cars or whatever. I think that would be really interesting. Thanks again for these vids, very interesting.

[@swanblake]

Appreciate that you speak the truth. I did not enjoy the 2020 Supra at all due to Toyota not giving them free press cars again. The differential tuning and suspension tuning is poor at best. The most telling admission of this is that a year later the Supra is receiving a refresh for 2021 model year. Disappointing they didn't fix the wind buffeting issue or the suspension mounting hardware

[@MrE30]

Evening Robert, thanks for your insight/thoughts into why the supra was removed from the fleet.

[@shepardman993]

Thank you always be honest so many people just say the same thing when they evaluate a new car just to keep the manufacture happy Thank you and brilliantly explained

[@philrob110]

Loving these Tech Talks Robert! Very interesting

[@949RacingSuperMiata]

Radical bump steer curves are not an accident or oversight. It's a decision between product planners and engineers that don't really understand their customers well enough. Most car have some passive rear steer via compliance bushings and its fine. That's eliminated in race cars with harder bushings or bearings then a tiny bit of bump steer fine tuned with adjustable pick up points. Other production cars have active zero or event toe out under compression that helps rotate the car into a turn. This works when driven smoothly, on low grip OEM tires by expert drivers. Add sticky tires, novice drivers and aggressive inputs and you get a car in a tree. Expert drivers notice the unpredictability immediately and just compensate for it by backing off a bit. FC RX7 had passive same phase/counter phase rear steer. Autocrossers hated it because that same phase induced massive understeer in sharp turn ins. AP1 S2000, ND1 Miata both have this radical bump steer designed into the rear suspensions to make easier for novice drivers to bend into a turn with smaller inputs. Low grip OEM tires, smooth expert inputs and all is good. That novice drivers adds grippy tires and tries to push harder, those cars become unpredictable and hard to keep on line. S2000 fix is adjustable rear toe links. No fix for ND1 other that lowering car and raising wheel rates to limit wheel travel. ND2 has same geometry but different durometer compliance bushings so its better behaved but still not quite right. Agree with assessment that product planners and engineers need to trust that customers will be perfectly happy and safe just learning to transfer weight to initiate rotation and don't want stupid band-aid geometry to exaggerate rotation with every tiny change in pitch.

[@Subsurface123]

Thank you for this video and your honesty. You just saved me a huge regret. Looking forward to see how you go about fixing this if it can be done.

[@RobertMitchell]

You’re Welcome and thank you for checking it out

[@MetalMasterdom]

I somewhat agree with your premise. You're not describing what's really going on with no toe. What's causing the "follow the road" effect doesn't really have anything to do with the toe being zero. It's because of the way tie rod ends work. Having toe in/out puts inward/outward tension on the TREs. Which makes the steering feel "tighter" and less "wandering". No toe essentially introduces "slop" in the steering because the TREs are not under inward/outward tension. Making it feel like the wheels want to "follow the road", particularly when driving in a straight line. But it's really that it's just not as easy to keep them from "following the road" due to this inherent "slop" in the steering when driving straight. Other than that zero toe is optimal. Since you rob yourself of some power with that wheel scrub too.

[@001dmike]

I really dig the technical knowledge from you Robert! Keep this kind of informative content coming. Knowledge is power especially behind the wheel.

[@imafirinmalaser]

So good, this is the kind of car channel that I always wanted. This is immeasurably informative!

[@ACCAW11]

I drive a 2018 Subaru STi Type RA. Bump Steer plagues the current gen STi. Mainly the special editions and especially the Type RA and S209. Any kind of imperfection on public roads will cause the steering wheel while cornering to try to rip itself from your hands. Literally have to invest in a bump steer correction kit to address the behavior.

[@andyandy6466]

Matt Farah did a video recently about the new 2021 Supra and apparently they fixed a lot of the suspension problems the previous model years had.

[@martindeoliveira5128]

Been reliably informed that the 2021 Supra has received redesigned suspension parts. Really enjoy these Tech Talks.

[@rubenvela1982]

Fantastic video Robert. Keep bringing high quality content like this. From real car guys, for real car guys. Thank you!

[@borazga]

That Supra looks amazing 😍 easily the best looking Supra I have ever seen and the best thing is that it’s not wide body🙃

[@RobertMitchell]

the livery is a bit wild but works on the car for sure

[@luch993]

Robert thank you fair making such videos as this for us to really understand flaws with new cars and help others to make an better decision when buying these cars for the intended purpose that they are built for. Keep it up !

[@dafaqking]

Is there a chance Toyota fixed these issues with the 2021 Supra? They announced a completely re-designed suspension for the new model year.

[@hadrien4089]

they better be otherwise it's just a shame for the buyer

[@motormusique]

I get the feeling the 2021 Supra is what Toyota actually wanted to release, but maybe had to release the 2020 Supra when it did due to deadlines, or to avoid government legislation on something

[@montaver2455]

Great video. You should definitely reach out to Jackie Ding and see what suspension mods he's running. He has posted lots of track videos and actually crashed his first one!

[@b08m4rt1n]

SW20 had short track rods in the first two generations and was well known for its tendency to spin out. From the third gen they changed the rear end with longer track rods and the car drove a whole lot better. With the Supra, I think they may have changed the 2021 version to fix this issue.

[@Rodrigoxki]

I think I know about cars because I've been pretty much looking and reading into them ever since I was a child. Then I ser these videos.. and I realize how much of an ignorant I actually am on the topic I love the most. Literally jawdropped. Love your insights and the way you transmit knowledge, very cool yet very insightful. Will definitely stop by Apex if I ever go to the Nurburgring!

[@idokwatcher2062]

MCR (Matchless Crowd Racing) owner is the only other one I have seen talk about the Supra honestly. Thanks. Edit: you don't know why nobody mentioned it in reviews? Because they are shills protecting their reputation with Toyota, their only goal is to sell you the car. Same reason why nobody mentions crank hub flaw on N55/S55 engines, or the dreaded drivetrain protection shift bog/throttle latency of 1.2s programmed in the ECU of all manual N55/S55 cars.

[@armatian]

Another great video, i started mechanical engineering tried to reach chasis/suspensions on nice racing series someday, sadly life revoqued my dreams (dont even own a car). This is super interesting and you are extremely spot on how you explained it. Hope you get to the bottom of it. I have seen analysis cases of bad angles on steering racks and links ruining front suspensions travel toes but you cant counter misbehavior of rear suspension with your hands, very surprised here.

[@xXxH8TERxXx]

Enjoy these type of video's to Robert 👍🏻

[@polarbear111000]

Very interesting video. Awesome explanation of bump steer etc. Very honest opinion regarding the car's flaws. The other individuals haven't pointed this out because everyone wanted this car to be such a success that they aren't willing to point it out. You are, because you are willing to try and fix it. That's unique to the "KZbin world".

[@Driftuner]

Nice to know this. Counting the days until someone offers a whole new rear hub with different rod attachment geometry for the Supra. Hopefully they fix it, cuz its such a nice car..

[@michaelluttmer2486]

HPDE and AutoX'er. Just got a Supra, didn't know the Apex team had a Supra, watched this video. Fawk... Super informative and thank you!

[@s13180sxSR20DET]

Got a 2023. Doesnt seem to have this problem. Have tracked it a few times and it is very fast and very stable. Does that mean it's been resolved?

[@the_legend_of_kira2438]

bump steer is definitely an eerie feeling and im sure most people dont even realize they've experienced it. i drive an rsx and the car feels very planted but i have noticed on occasion if i have a little bit of speed in a turn and i hit something of a decent size it unsettles the back end and it will kick out otherwise i just have to watch my steering and gas pedal transitions to load the suspension, breaks and drive train right. i have had cars fwd cars kick me back the other way though as the suspension loads and unloads from actual bumps in the road or not transferring weight and breaking right.

[@ILCapo-mo5jj]

Thanks again for great insights! I will go through all my cars to learn about their stock geometry. My goal is to get as smart as to understand whether there is room for improvement and understanding what my preferred setup optimally is for each car. Ig, I want to learn if some of the loading up on the steering can be eliminated by adjustments in geometry. My 328 GTB and my 308 GTB rally-rebuild suffer from heavy load-up but not my 246 Dino nor my 1st gen testarossa. Also, I will seek to additionally improve Autobahn high speed stability on my Rolls Corniche. It improved greatly with Öhlins front shocks - now I'll give its geometry a closer study. Thanks again, Robert, very inspiring!

[@rickd955]

Excellent video, thanks. I have set up my BRZ to have a little Toe-in to address oversteer. But it is still very aggressive on steering input.

[@l8apexr]

11+ mins and not a single toe curve plotted. Not even a mention of how many degrees/mm of bumpsteer to compare. All here say and opinions.

[@RobertMitchell]

👍

[@philiphawkins4684]

I'm with you on this one!

[@freddyrosenberg9288]

" "hear" say I think is what you mean. And yes, I was expecting them to show the toe angle change as the suspension moves up and down. Maybe somebody else will do it down the road.

[@ExileXCross]

because it's not really relevant to conveying or the discussion.

[@brookhammerschmidt4464]

I made a video on how to adjust bumpsteer with data plots!

[@M00n.P00p.]

Early S2000 had a similar bump steer issues but got fixed with the face lift. This was almost 20 years ago, lol. Seeing this in a 2020 car is a big letdown. I wonder if the Z4 has similar issues. Since it's the same platform, it's very propable.

[@mortenhartvigkristiansen7760]

Wow, so this is the reason.. I was invited by my local toyota stealership to try the supra last year as it launched in denmark. I have a GT86 which I love, and after the test drive the salesmen were all exited; so, should we get one home for you? And they almost fell over when i said: Hell no! I'm not giving up my 86 for 'that'..... yes, it was fast, but the suspension just didn't do it for me. My GT is a gokart compared to the supra. Thank you Rob, this is the review the world was waiting for!

[@SMITESHSURESH]

Great quality content , the way you expressed and explained everything was very nice 👌🏻 and the car looks super cool in background.

[@Kyosheen]

Hey Robert, would love to help you out with that issue. We, as a big engineering company based in Stuttgart working in the automotive industry would be a great partner. Weve got lots of experience in developing even complete suspensions. However, I dont know how far you wanna go with this. Just some adjusting of the tie rod? Complete new knuckle and wishbones? I just can imagine if we would develop a complete kit to be sold by you to be make it any profitable for you and us. Love those insights

[@981porsche3]

@pascal lallala: Sounds like a great idea! My first thought was that someone should develop aftermarket toe arms with bump-steer kit for the Supra. Everyone says that Toyota wanted there to be lots of aftermarket potential for the Supra, lol! @Robert Mitchell

[@alfo4c489]

@@981porsche3 www.splparts.com/2020-supra/

[@franciscosilva2511]

That's a great inside Robert. Such a car with a great name and history to came like this, is the same for those driver's with jepp, suv's or tt(4×4), but don't use it for the purpose that was make. As you say, a lot of guys have "tested" and didn't get it. So there a lot of bad revue/test. Robert, just mastering the drive. 💪👏👌

[@towtruckdmc12]

You said it best, in this day and age why? Packaging? Something they missed? What happened? They knew people were gonna track this thing. How weird. Great informative video. Edit here: has anyone peered under Toyota’s own GT4 car? Just wondering if they addressed the issue. Thank again.

[@penguinactually]

This is neat. I made a mod for Assetto Corsa based on as much real info on the cars as I could find from measuring images and peoples own data and experiences and media info. It drives just like you describe to the point I thought I royally cocked something up with it and just stopped working on it.

[@tylerallen3876]

That wrap looks absolutely amazing on the Supra, 1st time watching ur vids, gotta sub now

[@RobertMitchell]

Thanks for the sub!

[@r3sonate]

Fantastic video explaining bump steer and toe angles. Well done.

[@RobertMitchell]

Glad you liked it!

[@DanielGonzzz]

Also interesting you noted the unsettling of the 570S as you lifted the throttle. I've driven 570S, 675LT, and 720S and have to say that upon hard braking, they all seem to shimmy back-and-forth while going straight. I always attributed it their ABS/Stability Control systems wrestling each other. It's unnerving at first, but kinda got used to it. I haven't driven them on the track, but I'm imagining that the benefit of this as you mentioned would be used to turn in sharp after braking hard down a long straight. But on the road when stopping abruptly, the car definitely wanders in its own lane. Hop in a Lamborghini RWD Gallardo or RWD Huracan and that definitely is not the case.

[@RobertMitchell]

It was the early 570. They changed the rear subframes and toe arm angles after some heavy complaints

[@4ndyr0g3r50n]

I'd guess the handling issues are mostly BMW's fault. Clarkson tested the M4 GTS and he described it as "somewhere between spiteful and undriveable". The ordinary M4 has a habit of sliding around as we saw it doing that a lot in the marketing for the car. Perhaps thats all it can do? Phil Morrison of Driftworks had an M2 once and fitted an older more predictable diff because he said the standard one made the car dangerous. The standard diff had a habit of opening up mid drift, speering the car violently in the opposite direction. He also had an M4 as a loan car once and said it was dangerous in the handling department too. He said the first time he drove it he got out and actually checked to see if it had any tyre tread as it was so lacking in grip. I'm a BMW fanboy but they really have dropped the ball when it comes to performance cars recently, so I'd be suprised if the A90 handling problems are Toyota's fault. It would be interesting to see if the new Z4 has the same handling issues though. It's such a shame. The FT-1 concept's striking looks (which have unfortunately been watered down), BMW's reputation for performance and Toyota's reputation for tunability and bombproof reliability should have made the new Supra an epic car. Unfortunately I think it is one of those cars that has been designed to sell in large numbers (using the name and reputation made by the MKIV) rather than be a true flagship performance car.

[@ThemrRewind]

Thanks this is very infomative, i really wanted "and still do" have hopes for the new supra. i knew it would be a stretch to live up to the old mk4's rep but i still think its an amazing car, i hear the engine is pretty stout also with people pushing decent hp on stock internals.

[@oesoy]

Thanks for your honest review and your commitment in making that car better. What kind of rims is that Supra sitting on?

[@MattFFM]

Look like Protrack One.

[@Two-Stack]

That rear suspension lift costed Jackie Ding his first supra. Right into the wall she went.

[@celebritywatch386]

jackie ding is so smart he bought another hahaha

[@revmatchtv]

That’s not what Jackie Ding said. Different situation.

[@herewegoagain7403]

His TAV1 hit grass.... why u cappin’ 🥴

[@RobertMitchell]

JEEPNATION prob hit grass CAuse the car just turned on it’s own... due to bump steer 🤣. (Jokes dont worry)

[@herewegoagain7403]

​@@RobertMitchellSupras don't have bump steer. It just acted like a Z4 that day 💀

[@philm.1045]

Great unbiased insight on the new Supra...👍🏻

[@backseatsmen360]

Really nice to see Supra review ontent outside of "the Supra is as actually a BMW".

[@RobertMitchell]

Glad to hear.... I’m w you the usual bashing is old

[@NeilRobicheau]

Being a Supra owner, I can attest to the loose rear end, even while driving on the road. I'm waiting for a solution to come along. Robert, do you think a GT wing for downforce help in the short term?

[@Kyosheen]

defiantly not, dont do this! The weight transfer is so big you will always keep that bump steer

[@RobertMitchell]

Sadly a wing is not the correct way to fix it. It may reduce the weight transfer under transitions however at the big moment it does happen it will make it even more dangerous. I really hope it’s just a matter of a new tie Rod which would be a simple solution

[@ciello___8307]

@@RobertMitchell Do you think the 2021 refresh helped things?

[@carboydorifutoparty3976]

@@ciello___8307 not going to put it as official but I heard that Toyota retuned the 21s chassis so it wouldn't have as much body roll and etc like the 2020 did so it'd be more track prone than the 2020. Can't say if it's going to handle better and not have these problems like the 2020 since no one's put both head to head and pushed both on a track to compare them.

[@azian6er]

@@RobertMitchell Ever since swapping to the SPL rear tie rods on my a90 with the solid bushings I have notice that feeling of uneasiness at speed after letting off has minimized. I am also running the rear SPL traction bars as well - perhaps taking up the deflection in the OEM bushings is helping the geometry flex less to create those moments you explained.

[@davidevieira9784]

A very good and clear explanation as always!

[@BG-gi1gr]

Another great video Robert! Keep them coming

[@mockngbrdy]

There's an Option video on KZbin running 3 lightly tuned Supras on a high-speed oval, on the car without a rear wing, the driver did mention the rear end moving around in a scary fashion on the banked curve. The only one he went flat-out had a big rear wing.

[@anupamgupta3830]

Man the audio quality in your videos is on another level 💪💪💪

[@robertmaddock1813]

Such interesting balanced insight, thank you for the video and your efforts... really cool.

[@RobertMitchell]

Your welcome!!!! Thank you for the support

[@thiosemicarbizidebenzoylal2921]

Great tutorial. You guys at Apex really should be looking at the C8 series for a lower cost track car. The feedback coming from people that have tracked it is too positive to overlook. They even have suspension packages being developed just for track. GM is putting a whole lot into that series, and asking very little for price. The German version is going to happen because GM is still on s global plan for the car. But i know you guys are the experts on what to look for in cars.

[@RobertMitchell]

Thiosemicarbizide Benzoyl Alcohol I bet it’s a wonderful car no doubt! One id love to try sometime too.

[@motormusique]

Interesting how many perspectives there are on this car. Sport Auto (German magazine) picked it as their best handling car of 2020, but said they enjoyed the loose rear. Most publications love it, but Motor Trend also found one scenario where the rear felt loose.

[@RobertMitchell]

Sport Auto probs got paid 🤣🤣🤣

[@JuanAntonEgo]

Great content! I'm glad u address this issue & speak out about it .( not like Car Journalist that hide the truth) also, I'm glad u see the potential on this new Supra & are willing to develop it to bring out the full potential as well. Question.. Does the Z4 behave as well as the Supra? Or did BMW engineers do a better job on the Z4?

[@Skirk84]

Love your video's Robert and am very in tune with your way of thinking on this matter.

[@fightrider187]

I had the chance to drive the new 2020 Z4 which is the same base as the Supra and I have to say the rear end is exactly like you said . I´m not a professional driver but I did absolutely not feel save going hard with this car because of the rear. I absolutely can´t believe someone calls himself engineer for this. Even the actual CLA felt better in cornering for me, which is a disgrace. Because the CLA and Z4/Supra should be worlds apart

[@larsw4432]

I think this video will go viral. Your inputs are so Spot On!

[@SCHUMACH3R]

So insightful, you’re the only one point this flaw out. Keep up the good work.

[@LSs1Power]

I had a similar issue when i used to race Lotus Exiege Cup 260. It has major issue with front bump steer geometry to the point that it goes from 2 degree toe out to 5 degrees out under braking. We had to put 2 degree toe in when unloaded to see 1 degree out under braking for better trail braking and corner entry. We loaded the car while I was in it to do the adjustment and when we put weight on the front you can actually see the front tire going toe out by at least 2-3 degrees. Figuring out the bump steer issue with the Lotus and putting a compromised toe setting allowed us to go 2 seconds faster in a 1:30 min lap which is significant. We got 4 poles out of 5. Most other competitors had 2 toe out like the recommendations from the factory which made them slightly faster than me on the straights, but can’t brake as well as i did with my setup. Did you try to load the Supra while it is standing still by putting weight on the back and see the delta change in toe in or out based on load so you better understand how severe the issue is?

[@sahalin12345]

This is what i look for at the internet. Please make more videos like this.

[@RobertMitchell]

thank you!! more incoming

[@HAHA.GoodMeme]

Your videos like this are why I subbed. More please

[@cliotrophy230]

Enjoying these technical explanation videos. More please Robert

[@felixyang386]

I heard the 2021 version GR Supra has fixed this issue by factory？ is it true？ I actually really want buy it.

[@einautofan6685]

Oh, never knew that problem! Will ask some YT here in Germany about that issue and their testing experiences. Sounds like there is a major construction problem...🤔

[@butunercouk]

As you know suspension geometry specified by chassis and sub-frame. I think you need an adjustable rear sub-frame. If it's multilink rear end, you really need CAD. Thank you.

[@RobertMitchell]

Just hang tight. Have some cool info on that front:-)