Tesla vs NIO | Why Are They Taking Such RADICALLY Different Approaches?

Tesla is the clear market leader when it comes to EV charging but that just means its competitors are incentivised to take a more radical approach. Whilst BP has recently decided to embrace Tesla's success, NIO has opted for a different approach.
So to find out what's going on, stick around as Dave Takes It On.
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#ev #electricvehicles #tesla #cleanenergy #renewables #nio #bp

[@Roman-re1yg]

NIO can do both! end of story.

[@foothpath9966]

Yup, and with the new 100kwh batt it charges with around 170kw in average from 9% all the way up to 70% before it started slowing down.. tests done on both the ET5 touring and EL6 in Germany.

[@blakeo8407]

NIO just recorded 30M total swaps since inception. Predominantly all in China, though. I would say it’s widely popular with NIO users. Need the infrastructure In place. It’s your choice - Swap or Charge. According to NIO, owners are opting to swap more than charging.

[@davetakesiton]

great to have the choice, we don't yet and maybe it won't catch on here

[@onetwothreefour-s1n]

Nio's new European battery charging changed a few weeks ago. The new 100kwh batteries charge flat from 5%-75% at 175 kW. Plenty fast and the 800v architecture will come next year with it's sub brand to be followed by its own brand. Best of both worlds.

[@davetakesiton]

Thanks Reginald, I am short on detail but cannot see this taking over, Ultra-rapid chargers are already too entrenched

[@onetwothreefour-s1n]

@@davetakesiton oh no, that wasn't my point. But let me know when you find something that charges super fast but also swaps way faster than anything charges out there. 30 million swaps. 10 million in the last 6 months. 75k a day. 2,000 stations. Average completion time in the city 9 minutes. On highway 12. Nothing is coming close to getting 90% charge that fast or even close to that. But yes, building out a network outside china may be futile and I wouldn't bother if it was me, especially with 800v coming next year. For china, sure. But all the guys renting with the slower 100 kWh battery can now change to the super fast 100 kWh battery with no problems. The same way nio upgraded everybody's 70 kWh batteries to 75 when they made an update. And the stations use and pull way less power than chargers and can discharge back to the grid. And once yearly battery inspection becomes a thing you'll never see a nio on the degraded or damaged list.

[@waltermcphee3787]

​@@onetwothreefour-s1n New CATL battery can charge at 500kw, charging is getting faster all the time.

[@onetwothreefour-s1n]

@@waltermcphee3787 @waltermcphee3787 no sh*t. It's the qilin battery. Zeekr has them here and there. Still better to be able to both swap and/or fast charge. But Tesla fanboys like yourself are constant haters. Heil Elon and kudos to whatever new hate groups you've joined up with.

[@dann5515]

But thats only depend if your EV can support up to 800V or above 150kWH + charging speed. Most of the EV brands are built around 400V and 80-150kWH. And sadly you didn't do the research that most of the super or ultra charging station rate often don't give you 100% full capacity speed of what your EV and Charger capacity available! So far 95% non tesla charging station speed isn't accurate or mostly below 60% capacity speed from charger. As for Tesla's charging stations have more over 80% of them give full 90-100% speed of charge. So don't be so surprise about having super fast charging stations out.

[@monkayjim999]

The main advantage to Nios battery swap is it eliminates battery degradation for Nio car owners as you just swap your battery out. Also every swap is like a health check for the battery pack so if Nio finds any degraded batteries they can take them out of service to carry out repairs. Also it opens up the option to upgrade to a larger battery pack when ever you need longer range allowing users to only pay for a long range battery when they need it. The main benefit is if Nio brings out fully autonomous nio cars such as robo taxis they will be able to use the battery swap and mean that they can run 24/7 without ever needing human intervention to recharge. There are plenty of other advantages but these are the main ones I can see.

[@blakeo8407]

Folks are missing the forest for the trees. The moat isn’t battery swapping for charging. The moat is battery swapping due to issues with the battery. If a battery has an issue, the cost and time to repair it is lengthy and costly. If there’s an issue with the battery, just swap it. That’s THE moat. The ability to change a battery in 3-5 mins is a game changer. Changing a battery that is built into the vehicle, is short sighted long term. Versatility is the moat.

[@davetakesiton]

so battery swap stations will have to constantly replace abused and failing batteries. Great business model

[@Joeb4iley]

If it helps people who are scared of battery degredation get into evs then I'm all for it. But having to pay battery rental or lease fees for a service you rarly use seems odd.

[@davetakesiton]

Yes, if it helps I agree. Price is yet to be seen

[@anthonyrobles7544]

You don’t have too that is optional

[@michaelsaldivar4901]

Let’s see I just took my Toyota Tundra to the gas station and paid $5 per gallon my Tundra takes 20 gallons. I paid $100 to fill up my tank. We can’t take fees for swapping and present them as if fees are only unique to NIO.

[@peterjones6640]

Battery swap for NIO offers choice, swap or charge. Now as said most drivers who have the capability will charge at home and rarely have the need for either charging on route or swapping. But if you,live in an area with no off street parking ( and no likelihood of the lamp post chargers) then battery swapping could be very convenient. The critical element to the swap is how many swap stations can be built and where. It may be just not possible for NIO to build enough swap stations around the country to make the swap a convenience.

[@dimemeh]

I drive nissan leaf.. but will never buy next EV unless there is a battery swap availability for it. Too much trouble once the battery degrades. Many tesla owners also complain about battery degrading. Initial 4-5 years good experience with EV until degration starts and your fight start with dealer !😢😢

[@mickcarroll1274]

Some of the comments on swapping are missing the point on NIO. With swapping batteries, degradation is taken out of the equation. That's on NIO. Also, NIOs will almost be guaranteed to pass inspection certifications. When batteries get upgraded, NIO owners with battery swaps will get an updated battery.. NIOs can be bought with a battery or with the BasS (battery as a service agreement) option. Buying with the BasS offers a substantial upfront savings on the vehicle. At any time, a battery can be purchased instead of swapping. But it's almost guaranteed that if owning an EV, any brand, the battery will have to be replaced at some point, costing $$$$$. With BaaS, that's an expense that won't be necessary. As far as in the US, swapping stations only need to be placed along interstates. Long range trips are what give people anxiety about owning EVs. For around town driving, the charging can be done at home. But with the abundance of interstates in the US, the majority of people can simply drive to a swapping station and get a long range battery (for a small fee over the monthly fee of BaaS), and for around town driving, be good for a week or longer without needing a charge or a swap. Getting a long range battery for a small fee is a bonus for long trips. That's something that can't be done unless batteries can be swapped. Advantage goes to NIO. During the recent Chinese holiday, NIO owners with BasS were paying an extra fee of like $7 for a long range battery over taking the standard range battery in their BasS agreement. Try that with a Tesla.

[@Scott-cc4wl]

It's about limits in tech. NIO solved the limit problem in battery charging, using battery swap stations. I could write an essay on this one. In short NIO's swap stations are profiting, and it gets better as swap station installations approach a max China. After hearing the arguments, why did Tesla reject swapping?

[@davetakesiton]

According to Elon, nobody used them and it cost money to include swapping in production

[@Jaw0lf]

Yes it makes little sense, as you say a queue of cars waiting to swap batteries....better having more rapid chargers. The new sub 20 minute charges leave little time to stretch your legs!

[@davetakesiton]

Yes, I hate leaving my double quarter pounder with cheese to go and unplug my car and move it to avoid idle fees

[@Jaw0lf]

@@davetakesiton so would I !!!

[@robertarmstrong3478]

I believe that NIO do battery swap in their home market, so perhaps their existing cars can swap batteries, if there is a swapper. Perhaps just an additional option for NIO owners? Can't imagine they could swap any make, just too many different batteries. How will they manage battery warranty?

[@steve_787]

Biggest issue I see with battery swapping, as cool as it is, is that for it to work for all cars, manufacturers would need to agree on a "standard" size module so those batteries could be swapped into different manufacturers cars. It's a cool idea but this would likely mean that each manufacturer would have their own swapping station which just seems a little impractical to me.

[@bruceha1615]

Nio's battery technology is being standardized now as other companys like Changan & Geely are partnering with Nio.

[@steveyoung8376]

nio are recruiting in uk. the batteries can be used to balance the grid and charge from low carbon

[@davetakesiton]

not if you need them fully charged for swapping

[@ricklulu3572]

NIo just started the sodium solid state battery that charges up in 10 minutes so this swapping thing was a one hit wonder.

[@philiptaylor7902]

I can’t see it taking off. There just isn’t going to be the number of NIO’s on the road or swap stations to make it work. Much like the problems experienced by our old friend hydrogen.

[@stevenbarrett7648]

It comes down to preference , do you want to queue then sit in the car with no power as the battery is swapped out. I prefer to plug in and go eat thanks

[@solentbum]

Battery swap is well established within closed loop systems such as warehouses. (Fork Lift Trucks, etc) The trick is for NIO to extend that loop. Buses , Delivery vans, Taxis spring to mind. Local instant car hire could also work. My negative thoughts centre round future proofing the batteries , and the danger of reluctance for the swap company to update their expensive assets. Could NIO end up in similar situation to IBM many years ago when new developments wiped millions off the value of their assets. How would the sytem cope with advances in battery design? Could it cope with a sudden breakthrough that enabled a halving of battery size, weight, etc. There is of course a good potential for the 'Autonomous car' market where your self driving car pops in for a battery swap, and valeting, between customers.

[@davetakesiton]

Yes, good points and also compatibility, is the car's software able to communicate with a different capacity or chemistry battery in the same way?

[@saimonarnet5015]

Yes, all batteries are completely interchangeable meaning you can swap in a 100 kWh battery for a long road trip if desired and then swap back to a 75 kWh for local driving to reduce costs. Totally flexible

[@ALWH1314]

NIO offers both fast charging and battery swap. Tesla has a great fast charging station network is their advantage not the fast charging itself.

[@GaryV-p3h]

I can't see me ever buying a new car & then swapping the battery for one that's a few years old & that I have no idea how well its been looked after by it's previous owner, a good deal for whoever gets my new battery though.

[@michaelmcnally2331]

This is the first thing you think of. Spend money on a shiny new EV and take it too charge and get a crappy battery in exchange for your new shiny one.

[@davetakesiton]

Not sure it's an issue, if you don't like it, you get another one next time you swap. And I think the idea is you never own your battery, so the car is cheaper to buy without the most expensive item. That's how I think it works

[@laurentgagne892]

5 minute is nice charging speed but it think nio will be able to swap a battery under a minute by then ;)

[@michaelsaldivar4901]

Hold on , my math was off also. That is 2 hours of wait time for 4 /30 minute charges. Still , four battery swaps at 5 minutes a swap = 20 minutes. Swaps are only a second option, NIO can also be charged at home are at charging stations.

[@djtaylorutube]

That's if the swap station is directly on route and doesn't require any detour whatsoever and there's no queue for other swaps ahead.

[@michaelsaldivar4901]

Charge it at home just like a Tesla. This video is a comparison not ,”everything wrong with NIO swap technology. “. A comparison….

[@djtaylorutube]

@@michaelsaldivar4901 Personally, I can't see there being enough swap station density to make it attractive here in the UK, so the idea is just that, in practice, it'll be charged like everything else. The moment you have to spend 5 minutes on a detour reach easy, you're already at 15 minutes to charge.

[@harelbenyosef8743]

​@@djtaylorutube nio build in the last year more than 1000 swap station This is very realistic if UK will buy at least 500 nio a month you will see 100 swap station in the UK by the end of 2024

[@oddi900]

dont understand the problem, this works (battery swap) in several countries in europe and of course a huge success in china. I have a Nio ET5 and still after 2 months never charged it the old fasion way , just swapped the battery everytime i needed it.

[@PJMRRS]

Nio would work if they swapped a nuclear type of battery. Hiw ever much that would cost every 7k miles to replace.

[@jonathanbradshaw2575]

Both systems have merit and there is room in the market for both. Changeable batteries are very handy for densely populated areas where charging outside the home is challenging. Also there is the added benefit that the battery will not be the reason for getting rid of, an otherwise, perfectly servicable the car. Standard EVs will be the main one for most as it makes the car cheaper and faster charging mitigates some issues.

[@davetakesiton]

Yes, I'm not against them, just can't see the business model that makes them work. Building chargers you can attract all existing and future EVs. Swap stations can only attract EVs in the future specifically designed to do this.

[@jonathanbradshaw2575]

@@davetakesiton It is all about standards and it would be nice to see this happen with the NIO battery. Tesla has already seen their charging standard taking hold, which is a good move. The quicker legacy car makers realise that licensing EV tech is the best way forward, the better for them and a benefit for established EV makers.

[@jjamespacbell]

If 10 cars show up at the NIO battery swapper at the same time: 1/. How long will I have to queue? 2/. Where do we all queue? 3/. If I am in line and need to go to the bathroom, do I just walk away and hope the rest maintain my spot? 4/. How much a month would it cost you to drive 10,000 miles per year in fees?

[@davetakesiton]

Norway likes their Neo swap stations, I'm not so sure here, as you point out

[@mdshovel]

Bjorn Nyland in Norway has tested the battery swap at 5minutes. You cannot leave the car during the swap.

[@davetakesiton]

Surely one advantage of stopping is to stretch your legs and back

[@mdshovel]

@@davetakesiton Bjorn said the same thing

[@pferdeschorshi]

Had NIO swap around here in Germany for several months & there are 3 swap stations. While the cars are OK (Nervy Software/Beeping) the idea is as good as dead. €48k for car and either rent battery or buy one + €12k for 75kWh or €21k for 100kWh. German law means swap batteries have to fully comply with Weights & Standards regulations, which they don't do at the moment, so NIO is having to do it for free! Secondly, if you buy the battery, German ownership law doesn't allow it to be swapped, never mind the problem if you have a 100kWh but only 75kWh available - I think there are additional problems if you then sell the car. Apparently, when NIO sort out Weights & Measures, they will charge €10 per swap + charge they put into battery. The question is then if the 6 minute against 30 minute is actually a saving, especially - as you state - most charge at home! Here's a good Video on the issues .... at least in Germany ... not sure how good YT translator is! kzbin.info/www/bejne/r2fWXnmid7iiatU

[@harelbenyosef8743]

New country is always a difficulty, wait 2 years and this will be much better. The problem starts with the German government that is too strict and play dumb instead of helping nio to build 100 swap station, this is better for Germany too because swap station regards of charge station offer more stability to the grid. Nio swap station can help the grid when there is high demand and duy electricity when the electricity prices are low

[@pferdeschorshi]

@@harelbenyosef8743 In some countries, “possession is nine-tenths of the law”. Germans not so convinced - Fleet Car Co finances from their bank a new NIO which is then leased to a business who give the car to their employee. Can get tricky when battery is/is not part of package. However, leaving that aside, I don't think German Govt playing dumb. They know only too well the massive, game-changing implications of V2G - the latest Govt subsidy for private EV owners to get PV/Home Battery & Wallbox is encouraging V2G Wallboxes although at the moment very few available. NIO has been in German market for exactly a year & registered (sold/subscribed/demo) 1,269 cars, 80 of which were in September 2023. It's no wonder Renault killed their Battery subscription service.

[@stephenclay6852]

Hi Dave I agree with a lot of what you say. It’s like charging speeds my car a Kia EV6 can charge its battery in 18 minutes which is to quick if your plugging in then leaving the car on charge to walk in to the services take a toilet break then get a coffee and drink it in less than 18 minutes. But I just charge at home overnight and as you say your not bothered how long it takes as long as it done by the morning. And as for battery swap I don’t fancy that because 1. What is the condition of the batteries that are been fitted and 2. The bolts holding the batteries in are going to get stretched with constant undoing and tightening. And finally is a battery swap station going to be at every motorway service station. But anyway it’s only NIO that are offering the service. Enjoying the videos thanks.

[@davetakesiton]

thanks Stephen, good points

[@monkayjim999]

Regarding the battery condition, Nio does a full battery check on every swap so if a battery is bad it will take it out of service so it can be repaired. Nios battery packs are modular inside and designed to be serviced so any bad cells can be swapped out and the pack put back into service.

[@stephenclay6852]

@@monkayjim999 that’s good but what about the bolts been used and reused time after time. Plus you would need a lot of these stations up and down the country for it to work. Tesla tried this and didn’t bother pursuing with it. Instead concentrating on the charging infrastructure.

[@monkayjim999]

@@stephenclay6852 In China it is working well, they have over 2000 swap stations so far with up to 75,000 swaps happening every day. Regarding the bolts and locking mech, Nio has done plenty of testing and if they are starting to show signs of wear they can be replaced.

[@TravisSwann-d5r]

Shouldn't the battery be swappable for the sole purpose to extend the life of the asset? ICE vehicles currently last twice as long as Tesla's "Assuming battery life is 10 years and ICE is 20". If EV's are going to be the future, than swapping the battery is a must, especially if battery tech gets better. Having both swap and charging seems like the best way to go.

[@davetakesiton]

Not sure where you get your figures from. RAC says average age of ice cars when scrapped is 14 years and many Tesla batteries are still good will beyond 10 years

[@USUaggies58]

Still, though, don't you want an option to keep your Tesla going another 10 years, or would you simply buy again?

[@nooneop]

Why are there clowns happy to supercharged their Testla EV wasting an hour when you can swapped to a fully charged battery in less than 5 minutes with a Nio EV?

[@michaelsaldivar4901]

I can see your calculations are leaned toward battery charging. Think about this, you said that if you have four cars waiting for battery swap that takes the same amount of time charging one car. But, take those four cars waiting for a charger, 30 minutes each charge. Do the math 🤔. You obviously have not seen the videos of the wrestling matches between men fighting for a battery charger in China. That is the math based on reality. In case you didn’t do the math , it’s a four hour wait…

[@davetakesiton]

How about my maths. One swap station vs 32 Tesla V4 chargers. Which is most likely to never, ever have a queue at all and with 32 cards charging simultaneously, all at different SOC, which is likely to be free first?

[@michaelsaldivar4901]

Let’s think about this math. The latest swap station can hold up to 21 batteries. How big of a area you would need to set up 21 battery chargers. Cities are seeing the area that is saved by swap stations. They can swap a battery in 3 minutes and can perform up to 408 swaps a day. How many charges can 1 charger do in a day at let’s say average 30 minutes per charge.🤔. I believe they have hit 30 million swaps since they have started. So that are popular. So people need to stop saying that no one would use them that they would not be popular.

[@graemeglass7566]

Just can't see the battery swop being commercially viable. Think of how much inventory would need to be distributed across any country to satisfy demand. Hue cost on top of the charging cost built in. In 5 years EVs will have ranges in excess of 500 miles. Charging times will tumble to a few minutes. People shouldn't be driving 500 miles without a break so sitting having a coffee etc while your car charges up becomes irrelevant. Don't invest in Nio's technology option. It is very doubtful!

[@MrGMawson2438]

Evening mate

[@davetakesiton]

Evening, viewer

[@memrjohnno]

Nio are forever going back to investors looking for more money. Anyway... it's one of those things that could be done but why would you bother.

[@davetakesiton]

My very question, why?

[@MichaelBeckford-xf6bj]

NIO have faster charging as well not just a huge advantage with battery swapping!

[@cameronking3957]

You are missing the most important point! CO2 Emissions!

[@binhquach3811]

it better to rent a battery. you will never worry about your battery dead. cost about 20k

[@steveyoung8376]

BUSES INDUCTION CHARGING

[@SilverBackELTorro]

A NIO EV can be charged both ways. Swap and charge. Or you can buy a Tesla with a degraded battery then take it somewhere and wait 3 to 5 days to exchange it. 😂😂😂

[@steveyoung8376]

NORWASY AND EUROPE HAVE NIO BATTERY SWOP

[@davetakesiton]

True but they also have more Teslas than all the rest combined and their batteries are well stuck in

[@steveyoung8376]

PRE BOOK THE BAATTERY SWOP STATION

[@sooty8992]

The biggest problem I see with battery swapping is the possibilities of things going wrong. Battery not getting instead correctly because the automatic machine has a fault. Or the battery dropping out because the bolts get stripped. Yes plugging in your car to a charging station has it's risks. But it's much easier to walk away from.

[@PlasticPellets]

anus

[@saimonarnet5015]

30,000,000 successful swaps in China suggest that things very rarely go wrong with battery swapping. Can’t wait for it to come to the UK next year

[@kinross24]

Your take on why California battery swap failed is false as homeowners in California didn’t have home batteries and in fact only until the last few years Americans haven’t been adding batteries. The Nio system is more convenient than you mention because they offer both the option to buy car with a battery of certain sizes or rent a battery with the car and with that a swap subscription. You can buy a car with a small better and swap for larger one for your long run and swap back and you only pay per Kw! They now work really well in Norway on Ling drive routes and inner city. Also recent scientific findings between charging batteries slow only or rapid only over 100000 miles showed absolutely NO difference in soh at the end. LFP or NMC

[@davetakesiton]

Good points, but re- charging, its still 15 -30 minutes per battery to 100% against 3 minutes to swap

[@kinross24]

I’m a fan of swaps, albeit they actually take around 5-6 mins to swap if you watch Bjorn Nylands many uses of them, inc latest versions. You need to also pre book your slot in advance or you’ll be in a queue

[@harelbenyosef8743]

The last "research" is a scam. They took maybe 0.001% of the EV out there, they say super charger but don't mention how much kw and time it took to the charger to get from 0-100% Probably 60min if we took the fact that the car drives 100k miles and a hour is not fast charging by any mean. So yes, you can find little number of EV in the data base that tesla have and show no degradation but without mention the charging time this is not ever matter This "research" is worse than my 4 grand science project

[@keithdenton8386]

I like it when you talk about what is happening. This however is like corporal Jones. I think your going into the realms of fantasy there mate. Technology is moving faster than you can be aware of. Stick to the facts.

[@davetakesiton]

Like the fact I was told by an EV installer that he has plans from Nio for a battery swap station in the UK?

[@steveyoung8376]

WITH TESLA ROBO TAXI THEY WILL NEED ROBOTIC ARMS OR INDUCTION CHARGING

[@davetakesiton]

already under test and I've seen the photos, but contactless may be the answer, just drive into a bay.

[@anthonyrobles7544]

Good luck with that just like the cyber truck

[@herozero12th]

31 million swaps since 2018..so it works in china..but westerners have a difference mind set..therefore we will c.

[@davetakesiton]

Yes, to each his/her own, I personally do not see it taking off here