Debunking The Myths: Should You Charge Your EV To 100%?

[@captainjayc9217]

Very good point about the lack of regenerative braking and taking up charger space if someone tries to charge to 100% in a public charger. Thanks.

[@DavidJHoney]

Battery studies have shown that for low mileage users, charging from, say, 50% to 70% more frequently results in less degradation that a charge from, say, 10% to 90% less often. The highest degradation was measured when charging to 100% and then leaving it at that state for a significant period, especially in hot weather. The EngineeringExplained You tube channel has a couple of detailed videos on this.

[@moragkerr9577]

Sure. And how significant is any of that in the real world? Not much.

[@winstonwolfe2537]

@@moragkerr9577the study was performed in the real world.

[@sedumjp]

I've owned my EV since April, and love it. but I had taken on the mantra of never charging to 100% or going below 10% with that vague notion that it would 'damage the battery'. This has put that all into perspective with facts and figures and sensible explanations, so this is a great video and thanks for making it. My charging habits won' t really change though, I charge to 60% for my daily driving (I usually get back in the evening with around 35 - 40% of charge), and then charge to 95% if I am doing a longer trip and mid trip on the fast chargers go up to 80% then drive on. I now know the science behind all of this now. So I can bore my mates even harder in the pub when they ask me how I am getting on with the EV. Or to put it another way 'most EV owners will have been murdered by their mates and buried in the wasteland next to a flat roof pub long before battery degradation is an issue.'

[@hishamg]

Only if I am going on a long Journey, I.e. over 200 miles. For every day use I only charge to 80%.

[@rayjones9231]

I do too.

[@brendanpells912]

Maybe there's a case for the official range that car-makers publish as being from 80% to 10% charge, ie. an everyday practical range

[@3rreid]

Ye I try to practice the 20-80 rule, it's difficult tho as I drive my 2018 leaf for Uber.

[@adrianwood2566]

@@rayjones9231 and me. Most of the time it charges Fri night to 80% in case we do some unexpected travel. Rare in the week as I work from home. About once a month I make a long trip for the football, so I charge to 100% ready for Sat morning. Sometimes not even that in summer. In winter I sometimes need a small amount to get me home usually between £2-£5. Worst case it’s half the price of a 60mpg ICE. I use that as I had a Corolla Hybrid company car before the EV

[@Harrythehun]

Even better if you set it lower if possible.

[@petrbasa5742]

This was the best explanation of the battery degradation issue I have ever seen. Thank you.

[@Antiguan_Dart]

Dave - a masterpiece. Your most informative and eloquent and poignant video to-date. Fantastic. This 80-etiquette and charging principal should be EV 101 for everyone. I’ve had my EV 2 years and this principal I had to piece together myself in my first year of ownership. I’m in the UK and a recent trip from Newcastle to Falkirk Wheel (Scotland) and back 263 miles I did without public charging - started with 100% SOC at home arrived back with 3% SOC. Luckily my E-GMP vehicle doesn’t pull power significantly at even single digit state of charge.

[@ewitte12]

LFP the only reason for recommending occasional 100% charge is to calibrate the BMS . Being said going very low is way more damaging.

[@moragkerr9577]

You're going to have to try *very* hard to degrade an LFP battery so's you'd notice. Just drive the damn thing and charge it as it suits you.

[@solentbum]

Since I use my EVs almost every day I simply plug in overnight and charge to 100%. (or rather 6 hours at cheap rate.) The six years old 40Kwh LEAF still reaches 90% range at 96K miles, whilst the 62Kwh LEAF is showing no easy measurable loss at 41k miles. I rarely use rapid chargers , when I do I only 'fill up' with enough to get me to the next home or cheaper charger. There is a screen on the LEAFs display that shows 'time to fill' which shows exactly the curve that Dave is describing in real time. The battery management system cuts down the charge rate considerably after 80% so don't hog charge points.

[@Rexbilly9819]

Is it an inconvenience and frustrating not having CCS ultra rapid charging with the Nissan leaf?

[@solentbum]

@@Rexbilly9819 Not being under time pressures when I travel I am able to charge as and when it suits me, normally when I stop for a break to stretch my legs, etc. between 30 and 40% of charge, The 62Kwh LEAF will charge at just over 70 kw from a high speed charger, It seems that many others get the same sort of speed from their CCS charging. The biggest problem I find is where ChaMeDo chargers are blocked with other cars even though there are plenty of CCS points available.

[@XUVChettan]

Your video is informative & useful for the new EV owners. 👍👍👍

[@harryadam1671]

Kia advises to keep in the range 20% - 80% most of the time. - It's in the owner's manual. LFP batteries do not show a linear voltage change with state of charge beyond a relatively low value - that makes use of that metric useless for the BMS to estimate range. Hence charging to 100% is used to re-calibarate range evaluation. Charging to 100% is not good if leaving in that state for a long time.

[@stevelongden7368]

Excellent explanation Dave (in fact I would say this is your best video or at least the best one I’ve watched). Personally I charge at home from a Wallbox charger 90% of the time, probably twice a week and usually to 80% but to 100% every couple of weeks when I know I will be driving in the morning. Only time I’ve charged to 100% at a Tesla Supercharger is when I’ve been eating and didn’t want to rush my lunch 😂. BTW away from home I only ever charge at a Supercharger because Tesla has cleverly placed them just where I need them.

[@davetakesiton]

Thanks for the praise Steve, unfortunately I do charge at other brands when making these videos. It really hurts to be paying 79p when there is often a supercharger alongside at half the price.

[@KlausT]

Thank you for your extremely helpful video (I'm picking up my new MG ev tomorrow and have been wondering about this topic).

[@jamesmcneal1821]

Great video. I wish everyone who bought an EV was given this info.

[@mickjoebills]

There are several reasons to charge to 100%! Its not only a planned long trip where its prudent. In respect to LFP charging Dave's advice flies in the face of manufacturers guidance and Teslas data.

[@CoxJul]

Had a 77kWh ID4 for 3.5 years and have only occasionally needed to charge to 100% on a fast charger - this tended to be 3 years ago when public chargers were scarcer/less reliable. 70% of charging done at home @7p (happily to 100% full ahead of long run) I use Ionity on long journeys with an account that reduces the per kWh significantly. Situations for 100%: (1) an over 200 mile motorway speed leg to the next Ionity charger. (2) about to leave civilisation and drive into the deep wilds of parts of the UK for a couple of days where finding a working charger would be difficult at times. Good to see that the data is providing useful information about degradation etc.

[@Rexbilly9819]

There were about 5 times more EV chargers than petrol pumps on the North coast 500 around Scotland, but some ICE cars can do 500 miles on one tank of fuel, so they probably sell very little fuel after Inverness.

[@casperhansen826]

I charge it to 80% once a week in the weekeng while it is really cheap, it's working during the summer, however, when it's cold outside I might have to charge it a little during the week

[@415volts]

Majority of sales of EV's are fleet cars on lease (about 85%) - most fleet users I speak to like myself went 100% charge everytime - just like I'd top up all the way in my last diesel. It's not our issue on a lease if the battery degenerates - we were pretty much forced to buy them anyway with government BIK tax.

[@paulscott1759]

I agree , not my problem after lease has expired when I hand it back on my ID5 I charge at home to 90 % and let it go to 50% before topped again so I always have the range available in case of emergencies with my family ,my lease my decision so sorry volkswagen I will decide what I want

[@Smith_Tech_70]

Unfortunately, as one of the UK's rare EV caravan towers, my range is reduced from 300 to around 100 miles to a full charge. So, unfortunately, I have to charge to 99% or 100% at each of my 3 stops between Stoke and Cornwall. I would rather wait for the 100%, than to add extra, shorter stops to my journey. And, as I only do this on 2 days out of the whole year, then I'm not causing too much of a problem for anyone else, especially as 2 of my charges are before 10am on a Sunday morning. If all motorway services replaced a couple of pull-through petrol pumps with 350kW chargers, then I could stop more often, and charge less at each one, but the reality is, I have to find services with the space to unhitch the caravan, nip to the chargers, then nip back to hitch up the caravan again. Pull-through chargers would be a game changer for caravanners with EVs. Come on motorway Service companies, sort your sh1t out.

[@Ian-xq4rt]

My normal charge is to 80% (AC @ home), if I know I'm about to do a long journey, then I do charge to 100% (again AC). When using public chargers, I've never gone to 100%, I think the highest was nearly 90% but more often than not, it's between 70% and 80% (sometimes less), mainly because the charge goes so slow the higher the battery is charged and the balance between waiting and charge means I unplugged and drive off. Having a lease car means I don't really worry about the battery (doesn't mean I abuse it), but I most certainly do charge to 100% on a regular basis. Yes, the regen doesn't initially work (something I use a lot on my Kia) and that always catches me out when I enable it and nothing happens (apart from a warning), but this is only for a short distance and then the regen works fine (99% and lower). When I move my electricity supplier to a more flexible (only charges when cheap), then I'm more likely to charge to 100% to get the best value for money, this I feel may become more of the norm in the years to come.

[@Antiguan_Dart]

More sophisticated vehicles keep the driving dynamics the same when regenerative braking is not available by simulating it with the friction brakes. I’m happy to be corrected but in a Korean E-GMP vehicle the one pedal driving dynamic is perceptably unchanged if the car is at 1% or a 100% SOC. Also because most EV have advanced Battery Managment Systems and a built in upper and lower end buffer so 100% SOC charge on the instrument panel isn’t really 100%.

[@BigALBoomer]

Really interesting takes my mind off worrying about buying our first EV which will be about 3 years old

[@ComeJesusChrist]

You really need to check other source of information. However high EV depreciation is, even three year old ones lose a lot and become difficult to sell as batteries are a liability and people don’t want EVs, especially used ones. There is nothing wrong with older, well-maintained cars with a proper engine.

[@moragkerr9577]

@@ComeJesusChrist Other than the fact that these cars have an engine, and these things are going the way of the dodo.

[@moragkerr9577]

Really, stop worrying even as much as Dave is urging you to. The cars are for driving, and the batteries are proving to be a lot more durable than even the manufacturers originally thought. A three year old EV can be a real bargain, if you're careful what you buy, and should do you for many many years. Decide whether you'd prefer an NMC or an LFP battery, listen to a *real* expert (like Euan McTurk) about how to look after them, follow the very simple guidelines most of the time, and then ignore them if it suits you sometimes. Don't spend your life babying a battery so that it can do better in static storage in 20 years time. Who knows where technology will be in 20 years time, at this rate.

[@ComeJesusChrist]

@@moragkerr9577 What’s wrong with an internal combustion engine? You may fall for the propaganda as your dodo comment suggests, but electric vehicles failed already over hundred years ago and around fifty years ago. That’s worse than the record of the dodo. This time around, EVs are just a vehicle to undermine, control and to eliminate private car ownership. What type of vehicle will harvest and transport your food? In the very short future, most of us will have neither EVs or ICE vehicles and it has nothing to do with any fake climate crisis, it’s all political and spiritual.

[@chrismawby1805]

Unless you’re going on a long journey you don’t need to change to 100% I normally change over night when the battery is about 45% up to about 95%, if I am going on a long journey I change to 100%.

[@reginaldpotts2037]

Your content is spot on, every single LFP cell manufacturer I have contacted ALL say the same. Max cycle life (usually what they claim in the data sheet) comes from 60/40 SOC so you only use the middle 20% and will likely get 7-8,000 cycles. 70/30 is 5-7,000 cycles, 80/20 is 4-6,000 and 100/0 is 3-4,000 if you are lucky. Temperature is also a huge factor, in a hot country cycle life can be halved when the cell temp regularly goes over 40C. I'm always surprised most charging stations here in Portugal don't have canopies.

[@mickjoebills]

The science lesson is not relevant to EV owners. EV manufacturers state charge lfp to 100%. The difference in longevity is miniscule. There are plenty of reasons to charge to max capacity in an EV, a planned long trip is just one.

[@Soulboy63]

Interesting data from Tesla , just got a Model y on lease , 299 PCM , amazing car , glad I chose Tesla. Software , charge network is by far the best & cheapest

[@joshuarosen465]

I keep my Tesla at 65% during the week. That's over 200 miles of range which is more than enough for any trip in the metropolitan area. For weekend road trips I charge to 80% which is Tesla's recommendation for regular charging. Our Supercharger stops are determined by bladder size not battery size. We stop, plug in, go to the bathroom and then leave. That's enough time to get 100 miles of range which is enough to finish the trip. Keeping nickel batteries in the middle maximizes their life, that's why I'm using 65% not 80%. LFP batteries need to be charged to 100% occasionally to calibrate the battery controller but you shouldn't do frequent cycles at the high end of the pack, better to charge it to 100% then to discharge it down to 20% before charging again. This is very different than for NMC or NMA. Jeff Dahn published a paper on this. Look up the Engineering Explained video on the subject.

[@cruze1953]

I read and watched Jeff's work. And two of his collegues as well.

[@andrewburley9997]

Hello Dave, great work as always, very informative with just the right level of tech knowledge throughout. I’m afraid I’ve landed myself with an Audi e-tron 50, having upgraded from a 2015 24kw Nissan Leaf. It felt like such a relief to not be so hampered by range. Sadly, I’m still unable to charge from home, living in a London flat (or apartment if you wish). As the full range is an estimated 176, average to date and expected to reduce throughout the winter months, I’m taking your very welcomed advice and using a fairly local (8 miles round trip) Tesla charge hub. I believe I’m correct in stating that my Audi has a lithium ion battery and as such a potential for between 2k-3k charging cycles before the battery becomes subpar, assuming I understand you correctly. Would you be able to elaborate on this further, what percentage of battery degradation could I expect were I to charge to 100% each charge, averaging 10,000 miles per year. I’ve done some basic maths that gives me approximately 66 empty to full charges taking the battery mileage to say 2k, but the remaining battery percentage (potential) would be extremely useful in terms of gauging the possible downside vs benefits through the working life of the car/battery. I intend keeping the car for a minimum of 10 years but would prefer to make this my final car purchase if possible. If you’re able to offer me any insight or not, I’m very grateful for your diligence and integrity while providing us with the valued information you continue to provide. Many thanks.

[@davetakesiton]

Hi Andrew, that’s quite a challenge. My initial answer is don’t worry it will be fine. Three things work here: 1. All batteries degrade faster if charged to 100% every time; 2. NMC are generally good for at least 2,000 cycles even if each one is right to 100% every time, with a cycle being zero to 100% then back to zero.; 3. If range is just 150 miles then the battery is good for 2,000 cycles x 150 miles = 300,000 miles. To back this up Tesla has released their data for their batteries and confirm 250,000 miles at least and that included many charged at superchargers and to 100% every time. Degradation was less than 8%. You should be good for 30 years but I would still charge to 80% if you can manage on that and only use 100% if necessary. Dave

[@andrewburley9997]

@ really appreciate your timely response and the information provided Dave. I hear what you’re saying and appreciate the overview very much. I am interested to understand how the degradation will manifest over time, as in the percentage drop per 10,000 miles for example. Knowing how the winter months can take their toll on range, albeit temporary, I’m curious as to whether the winter in say 5 years might limit my longer journeys and the amount of rapid charging I might need to factor in, by way of compensating for that. Not wanting to take up too much of your time, I realise the hours you devoted to your channel are not reflected by the timestamps of your footage, would you be able to point me in the right direction to find this type of information please? Thanks again.

[@KimBuckie]

Excellent, Dave. Keep up the good work

[@Antiguan_Dart]

More sophisticated vehicles keep the driving dynamics the same when regenerative braking is not available by simulating it with the friction brakes. I’m happy to be corrected but in a Korean E-GMP vehicle the one pedal driving dynamic is unchanged if the car is at 1% or a 100%. Also because most EV have advanced Battery Managment Systems and a built in upper and lower end buffer a 100% SOC charge on the instrument panel isn’t really 100%.

[@ben.aka.bigben]

This was really through, thank you sir!

[@playpadel5926]

Great informative video.

[@Soulboy63]

Interesting data from Tesla , just got a Model y on lease , 299 PCM , amazing car , glad I chose Tesla. Software , charge network is by far the best & cheapest Charges so quick

[@mondotv4216]

So correct in that charging to 100% all the time is bad for either chemistry. One point of order. Because LiFe has such a flat discharge curve it is important say once every 5 or 10 charges to take it to 100% to allow the battery to balance.

[@moragkerr9577]

You're playing around with statistical significance that has little practical bearing on the real world. Just drive your car, and take it to 100% if it suits you. It's not going to worry an LFP battery so's you'd notice, and it's not going to worry an NMC either so long as you don't let it sit there for days on end. (Do the recommended balance and

[@jameschapman4824]

I don't normally charge to more then 80% however I do if I know I'm going on a long Journey and will be driving off fairly soon after the charge has stopped. Also most battery manufactures advise you to charge to 100% on a AC charger (Not a rapid DC charger) to balance the cells, this helps with longevity, according to them.

[@djhvideo]

T think the BMS will force the cells to be balanced. The occasional 100% charge is to ensure the percentage charge is accurately displayed as the lfp battery voltage to charge amount is a very flat curve. KZbin "Engineering Explained" has an excellent video on the subject.

[@NickWindham]

He makes great points

[@NewYorksFinest1]

I agree. People sit at chargers till they are fully charged and a lot of them prob still charge at home. They are slowly getting rid of free charging which will help

[@finchyfun1]

On the new Peugeot E3008 with a MNC battery. It recommends that you manly change to 80% but if changing to 100%. It should be used with in 12 hours. And if the car is to be parked up for more than 4 weeks, it should have a change of over 40%.

[@Mububban23]

Even for many EV owners we’ve embraced new technology, learning about charging curves etc is “nerd” stuff. I liken it to “car nerds” who know all about different fuel types and cylinder counts and suspension configurations etc, whereas mot people simply want to get in and drive. Similarly, most EV owners simply want to plug in, charge up, and aren’t aware of the best practises for new technology. Over time, this info will become more commonly known, and charger etiquette is also a new thing for society to learn (and inevitably, be rude/idiotic about).

[@Muppetkeeper]

Sadly in Spain, big country with few chargers, you need to take it past 80% a lot.

[@jonparr1]

Great video 👍

[@PeterEvans-k7v]

I use a granny charger most times as I find it charges enough for my daily needs but have a 7kw wall charger for longer trips My longest journey has been to Belfast Airport a journey of just less than 200 miles well within the normal range of my Kona EV. Might be a worry in cold weather as the charging infrastructure is virtually non existent on my side of the country with the only Tesla charger in N I is in Belfast and only open to Tesla cars.I hope eventually the powers that be will realise that pushing EV sales and not infrastructure for them will be a decision that will come back to bite them (and soon I hope ) well done Dave keep up the good work and the inflo flowing 👍

[@Gazer75]

Why would you use one of those "emergency chargers" if you've already got a proper wallbox installed? The wallbox is safer with more protection from faults. Here in Norway we're not allowed to use these regular wall plug (Schuko) units as a regular charger. You have to do a proper Type 2 wallbox with all the required protection on the circuit. I don't know of any EV that can't adjust the amps while AC charging. Many can even schedule the charging at optimal times, set a departure time and SOC.

[@oliver90owner]

A “granny” charger is just as safe as a level 2 charger - just slower (max 10A through a UK 3 pin plug - and no skinny extension leads!). It is just so much more energy efficient at 7kW than 2.2kW. The car and charger is always using power during charging - perhaps as much as 250W? That is 1kWh ‘lost’ in every 4 hours charging time, whether charging from the granny (perhaps 25miles of added range) or all those extra miles (over 100) from the 7kW wall charger.

[@Gazer75]

@@oliver90owner Many of these "granny" chargers do not have a Type B RCD for protection. This is a requirement for a permanent charging solution here. IEC 61008 talks about this. Some cables at home may not be of the size required for sustained loads at 10A for hours. Especially older houses. The outlets/plugs in the UK may be more beefy than the Schuko most of Europe uses so that might not be a factor there.

[@oliver90owner]

@@Gazer75 There are vehicles which can only charge at 3kW max. Never heard of one? Try Renault Twizy - either a 13A wall socket or a dedicated wall charger, both 2.3kW.

[@Gazer75]

@@oliver90owner What have that to do with anything? The lack of RCD is still a problem.

[@Chris-be1fo]

I took my new model three long range from Sydney to Cape tribulation in far north Queensland. I never charged over 80%. Didn’t need to. It charges too slow above 80% anyway. Modern EV have such great range. There’s enough chargers to get from place to place without having range anxiety.

[@BMWHP2]

Good info, and good explained Dave, thanks.

[@kevinwiseman3187]

Well put, Dave

[@marlons488]

Byd has an advanced lithium ion phosphate blade battery unlike the older style lithium ion battery in cars like Tesla and they say it can operate safely and better at 100% hence why they also give long battery warranty

[@Jaw0lf]

Totally agree that on trips never above 80% as double the time needed to reach 100% and as you say why pay any more at an expensive rate than you need to. 7p per kWh at home is far better for my wallet.

[@Smith_Tech_70]

My BMW i4 still has regen after a 100% charge, so there must be a top-end buffer.

[@Sp_75-76]

I have had my model 3 for 2 1/2 years and it has only used 77 cycles

[@oliver90owner]

Guessing that is 25-30k miles in that time?

[@Sp_75-76]

@@oliver90owner no, 16000

[@natehill8069]

I had a Volt (14.4kWh usable) PHEV and I discharged it 90%+ every day. Noticeable degredation of about 7% after 4 years. Decided I didnt need to haul all that stuff around with me and switched to BEV.

[@Slartyfartblarst]

Re: Loss of regen I experienced this on my first long trip. We had stopped for lunch and continued on our journey. I was driving normally and as usual engaged regen to slow-down at traffic ahead, except nothing happened. BTW, an EV freewheels a long way without regen. I thought the car had developed a fault. It was only later that the penny dropped. From this factor alone, I would always avoid charging to 100 percent.

[@oliver90owner]

Glad the “penny dropped” before you had an ‘accident’ (inverted commas, there, because an accident is an unavoidable event). As an example, my car can accelerate using all 225kW (300HP). Above 90% battery charge level the BMS might restrict the charge rate to under 50kW. Now, if I were to accelerate using only 200HP (150kW) and expect the car to decelerate at the same rate, it would need to dissipate over 100kW through the brakes (50kW max regen and 100kW+ as heat through the brake pads). Simple as that. Obviously one needs to consider the individual combination of car and battery/BMS to fully realise your actual car response, for high deceleration rates at high battery charge levels.

[@lesliecooper3404]

I have a mme awd long range. When I change at home it’s to 100% all the time and 80% when on dc fast charger. It’s got an 8 year warranty or 100,000 so I don’t understand all this panic if it’s got such a long warranty.

[@stephen25uk]

I charge my EV at home overnight, usually to 100%. My question Dave is does that last 20% of capacity cost any more than the first 20%? It´s slower but is more expensive?

[@7drobin]

Ditto, I would like to know??😟

[@salokin1]

In my case (7kW single phase home charger) there is little slowing of rate of charge when charging at home and getting near 100% ... it's not like rapid DC charging. And I don't see a rise in "system losses" at the higher end. But, when my car says 100% it's not really 100% as the battery management system keeps an unusable buffer at the "top" (and "bottom").

[@stephen25uk]

@@salokin1 Thanks for the reply. I don´t bother about charging to 100% any more because my lifestyle & mileage doesn´t require it, but I believe oce a month is about right as long as we don´t leave the car fully charged for long periods.

[@phiby123]

Excellent video, thank you Dave.

[@mickjoebills]

No it's not excellent when Daves generic advice is contra to manufacturers recommendations and also has group of LFP owners driving around with 20% less charge in the bank than they otherwise would have.

[@davetakesiton]

and every single petrol car driver has 100% full tank I suppose

[@jeanraymond9114]

With my NMC battery I do 40-70% for daily use in city . In winter I may go to 80%

[@SMJ-l6r]

So one of the Chinese marketing points is that they have lifetime warranties on their battery and electric engine. Now I know why. So it probably isn’t as useful as it sounds if even a lower quality battery goes up to 400000km. Probably more advertising than actually useful. They say a replacement is justified after 7% degradation in terms of their warranty.

[@jsanders100]

I’m not so sure cars are scrapped for rust now, it’s more often mechanical and very often electrical issues.

[@bikeman123]

Since it is known that manufacturers build in a charging buffer top and bottom, why add to it?

[@richardalford4437]

Watch all your videos really educational thanks for that. I’ve just bought the new mg5 trophy excellent deal £21000 brand new Im going to use it as a taxi I usually average 120 miles a day but on a busy day I do 150 miles I work 6 days a week. Would you charge up to 100% over night as it won’t be sat around as I start work at 6am. I have got a Ohme home charger and just gone on octopus intelligence or would you only charge to 100% at winter when range is lower most of my work is city based don’t do long journeys. Appreciate any advice. Live in Plymouth where weather never really that bad

[@davetakesiton]

I would set it on the Octopus timer to be full and ready when you are ready to leave. That way you can fill it up and not have it sat there bursting at the seams.

[@richardalford4437]

@@davetakesiton thanks for the advice

[@graham5649]

Great video Dave

[@arekfpv3631]

There should be more chargers for us. We shouldn't be waiting for an access to the charger. In Northern Ireland there is just one Tesla super charger at the dealership.

[@NickWindham]

Tesla’s 10 year supercharging comparison sources of major statistical inaccuracy that are suspiciously not acknowledged in their presentation: 1) failing batteries stop pulling down the average after they fail 2) 6+ year old EVs with the lower battery capacity or more likely to get totaled by insurance companies. So they get used for spare parts, but aren’t in Recurrent’s data 3) Replaced batteries start reporting like-new capacity 4) Battery management systems (BMS) calibration skews towards lower capacity for people that usually stay between the 20% to 80% charge, even if you level 2 charge. Calibrating their BMS more often would make Recurrent’s capacity stats for them significantly higher 5) Owners that don’t nurse that battery as much, like Supercharging 90% of the time, have better calibrated BMS because they more frequently leave charge well below 20% or well above 80% for more hours. So, more of their battery’s true capacity is reported to Recurrent by their BMS. Sources of error they did acknowledge but few people know: 1) The data for cars built more than 5+ years ago is much noisier. They could have used median capacity lost to improve accuracy but suspiciously chose not to. 2) 90% of the cars in the study were built in 2018 or newer. 3) If a higher % of newer EVs are sold in much hotter climates, that skews the newer car battery capacity down because extreme heat reduces battery life. 4) If a much higher % of newer cars are sold in much colder climates, then that also skews the newer battery life data downwards because extreme cold reduces reported battery capacity. Only 10% of the sample set was more than 5-6 years old.

[@davetakesiton]

You have that data? I would love to see it, please

[@NickWindham]

@@davetakesiton I wish I did. I got that info from a KZbin video soon after that 10yr supercharging study came out. The KZbinr read through the fine print and methodology of the study. It just goes to show that as much as I like statistics, you must approach them with a rational degree of skepticism that the stats touted are usually at least slightly skewed in favor of the presenter’s benefit. The trick is to find out how, and those tricks are some of the oldest in the book.

[@NickWindham]

@@davetakesiton high Dave, I added a few more observations in my previous comment to help you debunk the validity of that recurrent study.

[@michaelketley1252]

Great gen Dave.

[@NickWindham]

No, 100% charging frequently is bad. Just weekly if you have a LFP. Avoid letting it sit above 90% for LFP or above 80% for NMC for more than a day.

[@dopiaza2006]

BMW i3 only allows discharge to around 15% and full charge to around 90%, reporting them as 0% and 100%. Sadly most manufacturers these days don't protect their batteries by doing this as they need the highest possible range figures. My 105k mile i3 still has 98% of its original capacity available and shows no sign of further degradation. It also has the nice feature that regen is always available as 100% isn't really 100%.

[@davetakesiton]

Good points and my car had its charging speed reduced by OTA to protect the battery though I never noticed the difference. I’d rather have long battery life than save a few minutes at a supercharger

[@matthewdowning6009]

Pedantic comment but a lithium ion battery moves lithium ions from one part of the battery to another. It’s the lithium ion moving between the anode and cathode through the electrolyte that causes wear; Not electrons. Electrons are so tiny don’t have any physical effect (through expansion and contraction of the anode and cathode). LFP batteries are far more resilient due the chemical structure of the cathode. But they have a very flat voltage curve so it’s difficult for the battery management system to keep track of the state of charge. If you continuously charge below 100% the BMS can become inaccurate and you can suddenly lose range at low states of charge when the BMS is able to calculate it from voltage. Although the MG4 manual doesn’t state you should charge to 100% every time, it does state you should do so at least once a week and that’s why.

[@martinbailey4076]

Thanks, that is very useful. A question about home charging. I have just acquired a new Mini Countryman E and installed Zappi. It seems the Mini is not compatible yet with Intelligent Octopus Go so set it to the Zappi then added the car. When using the app to set the charge I want instead it asks what percentage charge to be added. Do you know if this percentage is based on the capacity of the battery or is it looking at the amount in the battery and adding the the percentage of that figure. i.e if 30kWh hour in battery and you ask for 20% to be added is it 6kWh to be added or 20% of the battery capacity 66kWh x 20% = 13.2 kWh. The reason I ask is that last night my 66kWh battery was 60% charged. I wanted to take it to 80% (set as max charge in the car app). So I asked Octopus to add 20% which should have been 13.2 kWh but in fact it only programmed two half hour slots and charged car to 69% which only added just over 7 kWh. Previous charges have not done this. One time I added a % which took it higher than the max I set in the car app. I expected it to stop charging when hitting the max I set in car app but no, it ignored it and went above that setting. I am puzzled as the function of Intelligent Octopus Go seems very inconsistent. Any ideas on this, Thanks.

[@rugbygirlsdadg]

The % is the % of the car's battery capacity you want to add. So for example if your car is at 20% and you wish to get it to 80%, then you request 60% to be added. This becomes a bit complicated if you have more than one EV with different battery capacities, because you can only register one car, so you have to do a bit of extra maths to work out charge amounts for the unregistered car.

[@martinbailey4076]

@@rugbygirlsdadg ok thank you, clearly Octopus threw a wobbler in setting charging time settings on this occasion

[@linuxretrogamer]

I charge to between 80 and 90 once a week. The about 30-45 mins. Another hour to get to 100 is a pure waste of time. Only charge to 100 in the rare occasion I’ve access to a cheap 7-11KWH curb side charger. Typically when I’m sleeping in a nearby hotel.

[@InBodWeTrust]

Battery packs now will outlast the cars, so trying to micromanage charging regime is pretty pointless. The LFP pack in my MG4 charges to 100% every time I charge - the car/app has no option to limit the charge state - and the LFP technology needs to reach 100% in order for the BMS to maintain calibration due to the shape of the charge/discharge curve. 🙂

[@brentmeistergeneral1054]

Are you sure? I have the MG4 but the SE-LR version so different battery chemistry. My app does allow me to choose the charging hours and set the desired battery level. I would be surprised if yours didn't allow the same.

[@InBodWeTrust]

@@brentmeistergeneral1054 Trust me ... I've had my car for nearly 2 years so I know it and the app inside out. You even explain *why* you have the option to limit charging ... you have the LR version with the NMC pack; mine is the SR version with the LFP pack and MG have decided that the LFP pack should always be charged to 100% (and balanced). 🙂

[@oliver90owner]

Being as it is the person who is in charge, there is absolutely no reason why the battery “must” charge to 100%. Surely the simple solution is to terminate the charge after an appropriate time?

[@InBodWeTrust]

@@oliver90owner everyone can make their own minds up on this. As it is neither the car nor the app (for the MG4) provides an automatic way to stop the charge at a point lower than 100% (for the SE SR/LFP version) ... neither does my Wallbox app offer that option (as it can't talk in enough detail with the car to know the state of charge). So if *I* wanted to terminate the charge early *I* would need to do so manually - *I* simply don't want to. 🙂

[@oliver90owner]

@@InBodWeTrust Oh dear, it has to be ‘automatic’ for you. So sorry you cannot cope otherwise. Never heard of manumatic?

[@rogerfleming1121]

One motivation for me to maximize battery life is resale value. While I might keep the car for only a few years, a loss of range will impact this. So taking care of your battery takes care of your wallet. At least to some degree. By the way, this might be a motivation to buy a used EV. Most of the loss of range occurs in the first couple of years or so. I have an ID.4. It has about 68,000 miles on the clock. The BMS reports a loss of 8.2%. (And by the way, I have almost never charged it above 90%.) I am hoping I won't see much loss beyond that for a while.

[@mickjoebills]

Your experience is not replicated by LFP owners according to Tesla data.

[@paga12621]

I am sure everybody charges their smart phones to 100% every time, doesn't seem to damage them for many years, same principal but obviously a bit cheaper!

[@andychamberlain2505]

Thanks

[@davetakesiton]

Thank you Andy your support is much appreciated, Dave

[@DanielWilson-g7p]

I charge to 100% on long journey, and mostly about 50% locally, sometimes to 80% I let it get down to about 15%

[@deathtothenwo]

Depends on which vehicle you have With my Cadillac Lyriq I get 275 miles on 80%…… good enough

[@keithdenton8386]

I charged at Dover to 100% as I had to wait for my tunnel crossing. The One pedal braking in a Tesla still works as it will apply the brakes, so there is no difference whatsoever. Then after 3 and a half hours of driving in France we charged again to nearly 100% as we had a rest. Waiting for the charge was not the issue, it was having a rest and something to eat that was, No mac d shit ether, No stupid Costa coffee prices. Good coffee at around 2 quid a cup. Tesla chargers have doubled in the last year in France, at roughly 25P per kwh . They are even on the Autoroutes at the services now along with the other chargers at double the price. 50p per KWH, But you do get a cover with those, where the Tesla ones are without.

[@paulscott1759]

True why pay 10 times the cost of home charging just because you can and if you are not going to use the car after arriving home just plug it in

[@Silversqueeze2025]

Is mg4 lmc battery?

[@bshah4831]

In my BMW i4 typically 40% charge gives me 100 to 120 miles and frankly I need a break after 100 miles! So no need to charge to 100%

[@brendanpells912]

All the intelligence is built into the car's battery management system (or should be). It should determine if and when the battery should be charged up to 100%, to optimise battery life and performance, regardless of what the owner wants.

[@davidstanley4877]

That is fine in theory but for a few cases the owner might need a 100% especially when travelling a great distance between charges. I think clear advice is enough for most people, there’s enough nannying creeping into our cars as it is

[@brendanpells912]

@@davidstanley4877 Not directly comparable, but when I was designing chargers for VRLA batteries it was crucial to charge the battery up to 100% periodically, otherwise the battery would begin to lose capacity. Unfortunately, if you have a keen golfer than plugs their motorised trolley in at 9pm and wants to unplug it at 7am to get back out on the course, they complain if you tell them to wait until the green light on the charger comes on. But then they also complain when their trolley battery goes flat on the 15th hole.

[@davidstanley4877]

@@brendanpells912 it would only take one person to be stranded somewhere and the car refusing to charge to force a lawsuit. But I agree that the battery management system needs to be more instructive to owners. Problem is a lease driver is far less likely to care about the battery life over time than an owner

[@ziploc2000]

How would the BMS know how far you next plan to drive?

[@salan3]

98% of my charging will be/is at home. At the moment This happens about once a week and I charge to 100% If we go on a journey where I need to use public charger, it will be to 85% max. So far I have not needed to use a public charger (except once where I tried them to make sure I could use them correctly and only put in 2KW (a low usage point)).

[@moragkerr9577]

Thanks for the lecture. So if I've stopped to charge both the car and myself, and there are plenty chargers and no queue, I should break off my meal and go and move the car just because it's got to 80%? Why? Because Dave says so? I have an LFP battery with a fairly slow DC charging rate, and it's not uncommon for me to find the thing is at 97% by the time I've finished lunch. Of course I keep an eye on the chargers and if there's a queue I will move, but most of the time there isn't. How much more does this apply to cars with faster charging curves (generally NMC batteries)? Sure, don't be a dick and make people wait, but these days queues are the exception, not the rule. Even an NMC battery isn't going to suffer from going up to 100% if you're going to drive it down again very soon afterwards. An LFP isn't going to care in the slightest. If you're in a stonking hurry, unplug and drive off, but if you're relishing some rest and refreshment, and there's nobody waiting, leave the car to get on with it. Dave, you lecture drivers as if we're the guardians of these precious batteries, and it's our duty to inconvenience ourselves to baby the chemistry for some unspecified future owner 20 years down the line. Not doing it, and I don't think other people should either. A car is a device to be used, and should be our servant, not the other way round. Yes, it's good to operate an NMC between 20% and 80% on a daily basis if you don't need the range. Remember to let it go to 100% and balance on AC every few weeks, and do an

[@Erikkrols]

I have to leave my EV SMART EQ for 4 months in my garage when going abroad. Until now I leave the car connected to the Wallbox charger at 100%. Also connect my 12 V battery with a trickle charger. The car or Wallbox doesn’t give me the possibility to charge to a specific charge (ex 80%) Is it wrong what I am doing? Is there another solution.

[@davetakesiton]

I would always talk to the manufacturer for advice out of the ordinary anything else is just guessing and could do harm

[@oliver90owner]

Definitely wrong. As Dave says, take advice from them ‘whot shud no’!

[@Grumpydadwithtech]

All pointless really, the batteries wont degrade enough to cause issues (unlike phones that go from 14hrs to 2-4). And the batteries will outlast the body of the car. Just drive it and dont worry about it

[@Ireallydontknow8581]

Hi I have a hybrid (citroen c5 aircross) with a 13.5kwh battery. The handbook recommends charging to 80%. However I can't limit the car to 80% and only use 3 pin plug charger that can't limit the car to 80%. Therefore it gets charged to 100% every charge and discharged to 0% about 1 in 3 journeys. I generally keep cars for about 7 or 8 years, am I killing the battery?

[@oliver90owner]

Is there not a switch on the socket outlet? That will limit the charge level - with just a little input from you! One should never run completely out of charge - you would be stranded when this occurred, wouldn’t you?

[@Ireallydontknow8581]

@@oliver90owner I have an EV electricity tarrif with cheaper rate between 00:00 and 05:00. The car has a programmable start charging time, but no stop time, so yes I could get uo a 4am and switch it off (or some sort of timer but it would have to switch 10 amps). Also not sure just switching off the charger is good for the car electronics? Will never be stranded with no charge, unless of course I run out of petrol as well.

[@oliver90owner]

@@Ireallydontknow8581 Amazing that you are unable to change the start time? Or is it just laziness on your part? Certainly could be killing the battery if running down to zero charge. But best to ask the manufacturer and heed their advice.

[@Ireallydontknow8581]

@@oliver90owner I can set a deferred charge start time on the car, so it starts to charge at 00:00, but there is no option to set an end time or to only charge to 80%.

[@oliver90owner]

@@Ireallydontknow8581 C’mon, what exactly is difficult about flicking a switch when the charge level is attained? Are you physically impaired?

[@Rexbilly9819]

2000 cycles of charging from 20% to 80% is less miles than 0% to 100%. If an EV only charges to 80%, how can the battery last longer with a 40% reduced range for each of those 2000 cycles?

[@barronsclose]

Could you do a video on how to purchase a Tesla? I understand they have a completely different way.. can you part X?

[@ouchnotagain1971]

My Skoda enyaq, has on screen messaging every time I start, suggesting only charging to 80%, to extend its battery life

[@joolsmorgan7032]

Do any of us actually have access to “100%” of our batteries? I thought manufacturers limit the useable battery level anyway.

[@davetakesiton]

No we always talk in useable not absolute capacity

[@foppo100]

I charge mine EV to 100% at home.I used to fill my diesel to a full tank.If the batteries can't take it they are not fit for purpose.In any case similar when I used to drive using LPG the tank went to 95 % no more.The battery system will be the same probably 95%.LPG was one of the safest fuel you could have.The tanks were tested to destruction and never blew up.Not allowed on the Channel Tunnel what a farce.I wouldn't drive with a battery less than 10%/.Any stop for a coffee or toilet break charge.In a few years all this will be gone.The range will be better and the charging structure will be improved.To much fearmongering about the level of charging on the internet.

[@foxylady1048]

On a long journey I charge to 100%. When at home it’s 80%. Full stop. I have never seen an ice car driver put a nozzle in there car and then try to get every drop of petrol in there tank, and I mean a drop.

[@mickjoebills]

Some folk prefer to have a full battery for several reasons. Dave's generic advice not to regularly charge to 100% is not helpful to the EV community!

[@jamesr.9239]

Very good content but Probably preaching to the choir. Most drivers never read the owners manual for their EV and are the ones caught unawares on regen braking and are the ones clogging up the charger slot and wasting everyone's time. No remedy for the incurious.

[@WheelieTheCapper]

Amen. I've always had the dealer provide me with the car manual (or I download same) before I've taken delivery so that I know the car inside and out on day one. The old adage of RTFM (read the effing manual). Alas, the stunning ignorance of some dealers who know little about the product they sell, coupled with drivers who have never read the manual.

[@richardhaywoodh]

The 1999 Toyota RAV4 was way over engineered its electric motor was rated for 500,000 miles ! Each one cost Toyota £100,000 back in 1999

[@oliver90owner]

What exactly has a motor got to do with the battery? Apart from the maximum ‘C’ rate of discharge, of course.

[@richardhaywoodh]

​@@oliver90owner ​the whole car was over engineered, the exame I gave was the motor was rated for 500,000 miles, the 1999 original NiMh battery back which is now 25 years old is still powwring the car !

[@oliver90owner]

@@richardhaywoodh And solar panels have come down in price a great deal, in real terms, during that time. Another ten years at an average annual mileage and some of those vehicles could be approaching that half million mile mark. Just not worth suggesting the motors were that much over-engineered. We are now 25 years further on. Battery technology has changed - just like other forms of renewable energy collection, with which to power them.

[@Rexbilly9819]

Public rapid charging is bad for the battery and it's so expensive it's bad for your wallet too. I use the minimum public charging to reach my destination safely too. I am cheeky enough to ask friends and family for a granny charge while away, then give them more cash than the cost of the electricity taken. It's still miles cheaper than public charging.

[@ericbrown8916]

What car is that in the thumbnail. Thought it was a Tesla but it didn’t look quite right, then I saw a V on its nose.

[@ComeJesusChrist]

Buyer: So what’s the range again? I’m forced to buy one of these as company tax on ICE is ridiculous. Dealer: The range is pathetic, sir. But you are advised, in order to maintain the health of the battery to keep it between 20 and 80%, not to let the battery depleted and not to fully charge it. Buyer: Are you expecting us to use 60% of the pathetic range?! What if I use more than 60% of the battery? Will it explode? Dealer: Welcome to the EV delusion, sir! You sign the agreement here, here and here.

[@GlensTransport]

Only if you went in a time machine to a dealer in 2012.

[@oliver90owner]

@@GlensTransport Nah! There are still some around who are like that! Just find a better dealership who knows what they are talking about, would be my advice.

[@cyruslad5462]

Im using ac charging until my home charger is fitted so regardless of charge level the speed is the same. My aim is to avoid expensive rapid charging unpess on long journeys. I always charge to 100% if I know I'll be using 15-20% first thing in the morning so im always ready for any event that suddenly requires a long journey. As a side issue I was wondering, does the brake light come on when using ipedal? The deceleration is similar to light braking.

[@BrianSmith-zs5wg]

EU regulations are that the brake lights must show if the vehicle is slowing at greater than 1.3M/s/s.

[@cyruslad5462]

@@BrianSmith-zs5wg surely ipedal would reach that threshold?

[@BrianSmith-zs5wg]

@@cyruslad5462 the brake lights should come on when using I pedal On my Kia niro ev, I can't check as I would be driving at the time

[@GlensTransport]

​@@BrianSmith-zs5wg I can see in the mirror at night that on my Ioniq 5 the brake light doesn't come on for level 1 regen, but does light when slowing with levels 2 and 3 and ipedal.

[@michaelgodbold6247]

Why would you want a silly milk float in the first place ???

[@andytunnicliffe7223]

Just to annoy Luddites like you.

[@mickjoebills]

Tesla state charge LFP to 100%. Their data indicates LFP cars battery degrade at half the rate! Dave, your claim that most/all drivers have cars with strong regen is a dubious. Since LFP vehicles often have lower range than long range models, it is very poor advice to suggest to not fully charge a LFP car. The EV buyer could consider the long range NMC car has 20% less range than the (usually cheaper) LFP vehicle. This video delves into the Tesla data. I live on a hill, 3km down into town, when we charge at home 4x per week, it is to 100% never noticed a loss of regen when lifting accelerator as being a byd they don't have one pedal philosophy and the brake pedal disguises transition between mechanical and electric regen if battery is full. We drive on semi autonomous so car looks after speed. So your video is relevant to a certain group of drivers. It is a poor show to unequivocally state don't charge LFP to 100% as you yourself explain by showing you sometimes fall short of getting home by just a couple of % of range! Cleanerwatt delve into Tesla LFP data. "Many EVs can't slow down without regen" is a shocking piece of myth creating! Page 240 of the new Xpeng G6 manual " If battery health protection is turned on, the charging SOC limit will return to the default value after the vehicle is powered on again. The charging SOC limit is 90% for models equipped with ternary lithium batteries, and is 100% for models equipped with lithium iron phosphate batteries. • It is recommended to use the default limit value, which can effectively protect the health of the traction battery" kzbin.info/www/bejne/rojOg2l8os6kmpIsi=esvDG40MgxmFKQFL

[@matthewdowning6009]

Dave, I’m pro EV but some of what you’ve said is just plain wrong. An NMC battery being fully charged then fully discharged to get the maximum range will get about 800 cycles before it loses around 25% capacity.

[@oliver90owner]

If you stop comparing the cells in mobile phones with those in an EV battery, you might realise you are completely wrong with your assumption. Car batteries do not use the absolute maximum of the battery theoretical capacity - by virtue of the BMS - so are never abused as much as mobile phone users.

[@matthewdowning6009]

@@oliver90owner I’m not, I’m comparing it to research by Jeff Dahn.

[@oliver90owner]

@@matthewdowning6009 Perhaps you should take notice of more relevant research on EV battery life span? 800 “full” (100% to 0%) cycles of my EV battery would amount to approx 200,000miles. As I stated above, simple practicality means the battery is never going to be operated in such a manner. It will be more than that simply because EV batteries are never charged/discharged to the absolute limits. The BMS will simply not permit it. Neither 100% indicated is 100% absolute, nor is 0%, indicated, actually the totally discharged state. I expect the battery will last well over 200k miles before 25% degradation is reached. Even many more Leafs could get there if the thermal management had been properly organised. We are, of course, considering practical range, not the exaggerated range supplied by standard testing regimes?

[@matthewdowning6009]

@@oliver90owner I have. I’m well aware there is a top and bottom buffer. I’m disputing that charging to 100% and down to 0% as far as the car indicates would be fine and get 2000 cycles out of the battery without degrading it to less than 75%, which is what most warranties cover. 800 cycles would give most cars 160000 miles, which is plenty. If manufacturers thought that was a good idea they wouldn’t recommend charging to 80% and avoiding going below 30 - 20% on NMC. The buffer is only about 2.5% on either end, not 20% on either end. LFP batteries probably can handle it and give 2000 cycles but wanging an NMC up and down 100% indicated to 0% indicated isn’t going to do it any good. High voltage damages the electrolyte and low SoC damages cathode.

[@oliver90owner]

@@matthewdowning6009 Who mentioned 2000 charge cycles? Why are you even mentioning 2000 cycles? 2000 cycles would take my car to nearly a million miles! I think you are imagining things. LiFePO4 will likely exceed 2000 cycles but not LiNiCo. But do have a look at the Auto Trader videos of the Tesla model S with over 450k miles on its original battery. By your reckoning, that car would have consistently achieved over 550 range.

[@csjrogerson2377]

I'm sorry but the 80/20 or 80/10 rules for NMC or NCA batteries and the consequences of 100/0 operation is well know. It is also well known that LFP batteries prefer to be fully charged and should be so at least once per week. I dont know what there is to debunk, there is no myth

[@wdsmauglir4683]

Yes, just don’t keep it there, it’s not rocket science….

[@MAGApepe]

do what the maker tells you to do,,, problem solved

[@jakeroadtonowhere4070]

I’ll give you my advice charge it to 100%. I do mine every time it makes no difference because most of the cars like mine are lease goes back who cares?

[@oliver90owner]

My advice is that if you actually own the vehicle, definitely follow the manufacturer’s advice on battery management.

[@jakeroadtonowhere4070]

@@oliver90owner there’s not many people that own our vehicle today and if they do, they’re crazy amount of money you lose and money you pay cash for it Upfront, you could invest or put it in savings and let the savings pay for it if you’re going to own the vehicle I get bored after three years with the same vehicle

[@mickjoebills]

​@@oliver90owneryep, LFP charge to 100%. NMC varies between manufacturers, Xpeng now state 90%

[@srbs73]

I just leave it at 80% normally, but if I need the distance for a long journey, I’ll charge to 100%. Although I’m leasing for 4 years, I’d rather not knacker the battery for the next owner when it makes no difference to me.

[@oliver90owner]

@@jakeroadtonowhere4070 I own mine, thanks for the advice but I could afford it and will not “get bored” after 3 years. That is a good way to nowhere - never owning anything and paying car salesmen’s salaries It used to on the “never, never” back in my day. A ‘rented status symbol’ is what we called hire purchase.

[@mandismith89]

im on a 3 year lease so i charge to 100% everytime because after 3 years i couldnt care less