Testing loading techniqes for accuracy in a smootbore musket

[@Real11BangBang]

This video is brought to you by our patreon supporters. Sorry I forgot to do the shout out in the video but here they are. Jon Hackson Brian Proxmire Jacob Elbæk Egegaard Pederson Thank you guys for helping make this channel happen. I will make sure to remember to get your shout out in the next video and the videos to follow.

[@ivymike2691]

Absolutely insane that the people who depended on smoothbore muskets for their lives and livelihoods developed fast and accurate methods for loading them.

[@ronrobertson59]

In both my 1816 and my 1842 the best accurate loads is ball on powder with paper from the cartridge on top. I believe the gas from the powder ignition evenly surrounds the ball keeping it centered in the barrel and giving the best group.

[@tedarcher9120]

It's not how gas works

[@earlshaner4441]

Good morning brother from Syracuse NY everyone thank you for sharing your adventures in muzzleloaders

[@Real11BangBang]

Good morning to you too brother from the Kansas Oklahoma border

[@earlshaner4441]

Hi my friend

[@ArizonaGhostriders]

Informative and great shooting, gunslinger!

[@Real11BangBang]

thankyou very much

[@JoeMac1983]

That thumbnail is definitely not what I thought it was at first glance. Thought it was "protection" from the herps lol. 🤣

[@GrudgeyCable]

Another great video man! Keep ‘em coming. Hope to see the Fusil de Chasse more in the future too.

[@Real11BangBang]

Unfortunately, my last Fusil de Chasse slightly got destroyed. If you watch my military heritage part 2 review. The whole story is there. But to make a long story short, after I got done shooting the video for that gun, I almost got bit by a rattlesnake and just a knee-jerk reaction was to swat at it with the fusil and it broke at the wrist and basically destroyed the gun. However, we may have to buy another fusil in the future to do more testing with.

[@StevenMMan]

And it's important that you noted that specific 200 grains is what this musket likes. No matter what anyone else trys to spue. No two gun will react the same to a one load fits all system. That's just as true in the blackpowder world, as it in a custom percission hand loaded bench rest center fire. You have to test until you find the right combination. That what I'm all about Mountain man

[@MJMJ27]

How can you tell what powder charge your musket likes? I have a 1777 Charleville from Loyalist Arms. Is it based on recoil, accuracy, or a Tiger factor I’m not taking into consideration?

[@StevenMMan]

@MJMJ27 it's a matter of testing and time. Ball patching grade and yes brands of powder. Rifles tend to be more finicky but not irrelevant to a smoothbore. Does it give you great efficiency? (Max velocity,accuracy,and complete burn/consumption of powder down range performance? For example.. Bertha my .54 caliber favorite loves 120 grains of 2f old einsford. I get the best accuracy with it, with good velocity, and down range performance. However it doesn't get a complete burn. I'm ok with that because I allow for powder/lube contamination and accuracy is the trade off. To me worth the time and foot steps. Hope this helps Mountain man

[@MJMJ27]

@@StevenMMan i appreciate it, the musket should be here by December and I’ll definitely try. I think I’m going to do paper cartridges to begin with. I’ll be using Schuetzen 2F powder. I’m thinking of what charge to do. I have .648 and .675 lead balls on standby to test.

[@richardsims1805]

An excellent demonstration of the various loading procedures. Very impressed with results of top wad only and running ball loads. For a more consistent result, I'd recommend benchrest and individual targets. Still, the results shown were very impressive.

[@Real11BangBang]

There will be a part two. I'm ordering a .73 caliber round ball mold and I'm going to attempt patched round ball again with a lower powder charge and I will pit that against just a standard ball on top of powder with wad on top of ball

[@Real11BangBang]

And I will try to do that on a less windy day where I can use the table at our regular shooting range as a bench.

[@geargnasher9822]

If I wasn't already subbed this video alone would earn it. Thank you for the test.

[@Real11BangBang]

Thank you!

[@TurkeyCreek-ek8mj]

Thanks Ethan! Good video on a good subject. Hope the twisters missed you. We had em down here. Oh well, that's the southern plains for you. TC

[@Real11BangBang]

Yeah I don't think we had any actually touchdown. If they did I didn't notice but I will say this It got dark and windy and a rainy real quick

[@musketman2008]

Great video. I purchased a Trade Gun from Military Heritage. I need to drill the touch hole and bring the lock up to mate with the barrel. There's a small gap. I like the gun. I'm going to have fun with it.

[@TheGunfighter45acp]

Stout loads! I'm biased towards military/paper cartridges, but if you need meat for the campfire, I think you have it sorted out. 👍👍

[@GR-cf4qh]

This actually makes a lot of sense to me. You see with BB guns it's known that the best accuracy is achieved with a smooth bore barrel and the BB shouldn't actually ever touch the barrel, but should instead be suspended in a cushion of air as it travels down the bore. What you don't want is the ball bouncing from side to side and picking up random spins on its way, which is what tends to happen with BB's fired from a rifled barrel. Putting the wadding on top or using no wadding would seem to accomplish the same thing in a musket.

[@Wildwest89]

I hope I didn’t come across as thinking you were hating on Pedersoli in my comments, I’m always happy for any historical gun related content

[@Real11BangBang]

Don't worry it wasn't you For one I had kind of thought it sounded like I was talking down on the pedersoli and really don't want to come across like that this pedersoli really is a phenomenal shooter.

[@Wildwest89]

You are making me want to go shoot my bess, I think I only shot blanks at reenactments with it all last year.

[@murphyfirearmstraining3630]

Is this a 690, 715, or 730 ball? What is the "factory maximum" charge for the pedersoli and the military heritage guns? Thanks, Chris

[@Real11BangBang]

these are 690 like original military. there is no stated maximum charge on India guns not sure on the pedersoli either. we shoot anywhere from 110 grains to 200 grains in both.

[@murphyfirearmstraining3630]

@@Real11BangBang Thanks for the quick reply. The reason I ask, I just ordered a brown bess from Loyalist Arms. They emailed me load data that suggests a max load of 80 grains 2F and a 715 round ball. I knew from your videos that you shot a much higher charge than that. These are also indian muskets, but they do a lot of finish work. Can't wait to compare to what I have seen in your videos. Do you have any from Loyalist?

[@blackpowderfirearmenthusia3194]

Great video, thank you.

[@Real11BangBang]

You are welcome!

[@grizsgarage]

I watched your video and I would like to make an observation. When you patched the round ball, I believe your 200 gr powder charge likely burned holes in the patch, destroying your accuracy. And I think what's happening with the bare ball and the ball with wadding on top is that the 200 gr charge is blowing past the ball more of less equally on all sides of the ball, keeping it centered in the bore. I would like to suggest a revisit of this patched ball load with say a 100 gr load, with a tight seal and then check your patches for burn holes. Burn holes mean poor accuracy. I believe the paper cartridge works well because the paper forms a wad behind the ball. Have a nice day, I really enjoy your channel.

[@vicroc4]

He did note that this particular gun likes the 200 grain load best. Dropping the load by half might open those groups up to a ridiculous level.

[@Everythingblackpowder]

My bess shoots great with 100gr, bare ball with a 10ga overshot card on top

[@Real11BangBang]

lol and you shoot better then all the rest of us so we need to give that a try

[@louc3336]

Awsome keep up the great work

[@Real11BangBang]

Thanks! Will do!

[@Bayan1905]

I have found with my smoothbore muskets, either my guns shoot better with a naked ball or a paper cartridge. I might get one accurate shot out with a patched roundball and then the rest are all over the place and none of them are accurate at all. So far my doglock and my Pedersoli Indian trade gun prefer naked roundball over everything else.

[@BillyBob-bd1hj]

That's exactly what I found as well. For the first shot, on a clean barrel, PRB is king. After the first shot, eather clean the barrel, or load ball on powder, or paper cartridges.

[@BillyBob-nn1zj]

Just a question: For powder, ball then paper, (your most accurate technique) does your accuracy remain about the same or get slightly better when using a rifled barrel (same technique)?

[@Real11BangBang]

Good question. I would say that it is still a step under a rifle. However, it is far and away more accurate than what most people like to make it out to be

[@mattefinnish8411]

I wonder if the patched ball would do better with a lighter powder charge. Maybe 70, 80 grains. Thanks

[@Real11BangBang]

Probably

[@larryhenze812]

I've got a Pedersoli indian trade 20 gauge,(I'm pretty new to flintlock) and can't hit the broadside of a barn with a patched ball. Duelist did paper cartridges and then I saw u guys do paper cartridges . I did ball on powder , (basically just loaded paper cartridges what seems upsidedown like y'all did in another video) and my groups tighten right up! The only drawback is the lack of any lube. The third +shots are a bitch to get down haha. I actually had to get a .54 cal jag to clean with as I was getting patches stuck lol. Worth it tho!

[@Matt85ism]

If you're going to use a bare ball then you should use a .58" ball in your gun (Lee makes a nice .575" mold). Also, to clean the gun after: plug the flash hole and fill the barrel halfway with water, then tilt the gun back and forth a couple times with your hand covering the muzzle.

[@Real11BangBang]

I think the other comment are here nailed it a slightly smaller ball would probably help with the fouling however, your accuracy may not be as good, but you'll still be loading a lot quicker, so I'm assuming it's a 62 caliber if it's a 20 gauge, so maybe a 58 caliber ball would load better

[@AdelaideRegiment]

I think what's happening is this. With your very stout 200 grain charge, the ball is actually getting 'set up' (Americans say 'bumped up'), effectively squished a bit into the bore size. That's causing the ball to take up the windage with resulting good accuracy. When you put the wad over the powder you are impeding the ball from 'setting up' and when you don't use any wad at all there is much more gas blow by past the ball also not allowing it to set up as well. The other side of the coin is you could probably get the same accuracy with a much lower charge by using a tightly fitting patched ball, as no setting up of the lead is required - the patch cuts out the windage.

[@conifergreen2]

Where did you get the tricorn hat?

[@kirkboswell2575]

While saliva is sufficient for a couple of charges, it doesn't keep the fouling soft enough for repeat shots. I would suggest another trial group with a good patch lube and a tight fit in the bore. Should expect 3 inches at 50 yds. With just ball and powder, you #1. risk the ball rolling forward and creating excessive pressure, and #2. You lose a whole lot of speed because the powder gasses are going to go around the ball. Strictly a guess but I suspect you are dropping down from 1200 fps down to 800 fps. Check it out with a chronograph if you can.

[@TheDiner50]

It seems likely that rolling ball like that is simply last resort. At 20 yrds and closing in? 800fps and risk of the ball rolling out would be less of a issue. If anything patch shooting makes far more sense if the balls where sized right to allow ball rolling. Outside of that? It looks like muskets would load after the needs in the moment. That until cap lock and rifling together with the standards moving more and more towards the cap and cartridges. Paper/containers most likely lived along with patch and rolling ball shooting for some time. Only time it makes any sense risking a rolling ball would be in combat. And so it probably was not taught but learned the hard way when to do it. Most likely with fouling or short on time. It seems very reasonable to contribute some accidents being from people rolling ball...

[@budterrorofthesky]

What size ball are you using that it just rolls down the barrel?

[@Real11BangBang]

.69

[@gavin733]

Hey quick question what happens if your fuse hole is drilled at an angle would it affect the gun if I redrill the fuse hole

[@Real11BangBang]

veing at an angle m ay slow down the fire. you can always drill it out and install a touch hole liner. thats the best anyways

[@user-ts1fp4nm9y]

Are you running 200 grains of 2f?? Great video!!!

[@Real11BangBang]

If I remember correctly, it's 200 grains of a 1F

[@rodkenton543]

Have you ever tried the ball on top of powder with the Charleville with the .648 rd balls?

[@Real11BangBang]

Yes, I got pretty much the same result except for it was even more accurate

[@rodkenton543]

Thank you for the reply. I plan to try that way with a .648 rd ball in my .16ga smoothbore as soon as Fire danger is lower.@@Real11BangBang

[@williamkoppos7039]

Nekkid ball. What the pro's use.

[@hettro-cv6082]

Great video! What state are you in?

[@Real11BangBang]

We are on the kansas oklahoma line

[@hettro-cv6082]

@@Real11BangBang I live in Pa. done some Civil war re enacting and just found your channel Good stuff! Looking to buy a rev war musket.

[@thubandra963]

Paper cartridge: ball first or paper tail down the bore first?

[@a.r.m.4you182]

I found I had similar results from testing. Patches were the worst. powder/ball/wad seemed to be the most reliable for me.

[@Real11BangBang]

I am planning to do a part 2 to this video here fairly soon. Once I get a little larger ball mold for this brown bess in which I will try standard paper cartridge loading versus reverse paper cartridge loading and I'm going to reduce the powder charge in my musket for the patched round ball because I think what's happening is is. There's so much pressure that it's actually blowing the patch around the ball because I did recover a couple of the patches down range and they had holes in them

[@a.r.m.4you182]

@@Real11BangBang I was thinking the inaccuracy might be due to inconsistencies with pressures or a slight drag on one side of the patch/ball while leaving the barrel. Ive even tried bees wax/tallow lubed patches w/o luck. I'm interested to see what you come up with.

[@blackpowderfirearmenthusia3194]

Great video,

[@Real11BangBang]

Glad you enjoyed it

[@dougdukes1039]

So, how about loading the paper cartridge, but loading upside down so ball is closest to powder and paper from cartridge on top?

[@Real11BangBang]

that is how we generally do it and it does shoot well

[@Real11BangBang]

There will be a part two to this test with some other loading techniques and will be sure to add that in there

[@Wildwest89]

My guess on the accuracy issue is you are about 100 grains over the sweet spot in powder charge for patched round ball, try 90-100 grains. The paper cartridge needs the extra powder because it’s not as tight to the bore.

[@Real11BangBang]

I realize this whenever I went down range and found patches with holes blown through the middle of them, which I usually take as a sign of too loose of a fit. However, these were very thick patches and it was actually a very snug fit all the way down to the powder. So my guess is that the ball is being pushed so fast and the patch has so much pressure on it that the patch is getting blown by the ball.

[@Wildwest89]

I find about 90 grains of 3f works in my Pedersoli with a patch, as someone else stated below heavier charges work better without a patch because the theory is the ball is centered by the charge. Not sure how you would prove that beyond the better results.

[@Drugaskan]

Thank you for your effort. Best wishes from Germany

[@Real11BangBang]

Thank you too!

[@Matt85ism]

Nice video! Wish you had used a different target for each group though, would have made it easier for me to follow your patterns.

[@Real11BangBang]

Great suggestion!

[@snappers_antique_firearms]

I have a feeling most people were not expecting those outcomes. Especially just ball on powder

[@Real11BangBang]

Then there are rednecks like me and Caleb who figured these things out before the internet told us we weren't not supposed to. lol

[@INeverMetAGunIDidntLike]

I had thunder and lightning, ended up with an inch and a half of rain. P.S. nice demo.

[@Real11BangBang]

lol we got lots o thuder and 20/100s

[@mkultraification]

It's almost like, after over 1000 years of firearms use, our ancestors figured all this stuff out a long time ago.

[@Real11BangBang]

Exactly

[@billmazzocco5275]

What size ball? Didminhearnyou say 200G

[@Real11BangBang]

.69 and yes

[@billmazzocco5275]

Ok, what are you using in your pediasoli charleville ? Same or near same powder charge of 2 F?

[@greywuuf]

Rough take away is that at reduced and reasonable ranges ....if it fits down the bore ....it will come back out and can be expected to impact game (or adversary)

[@greywuuf]

The cardboard wads would seem to me best used with a shot charge .

[@bdlit7165]

Just a funny thing I've noticed with my MH fuzie de chase. With pach ball i have to drop to 85gr i think and its okay. If i put a ball of paper, lead ball, then another paper wad, i run 120gr powder.

[@dlh1947us]

this experiment proves that a smooth bore musket is the best gun for the frontier. it really doesn't matter how you load at 50 yard's it is deadly to man, fur and feathers. the smooth bore or shot gun as we call it is still one of the most effective weaponry to this day. if you can only have one gun make it a smoothie.😜😜😜😜

[@Real11BangBang]

100% anything under 150 yd if a good musket is in the hands of a well trained musketeer it is likely to get schwacked!

[@johnfisk811]

I have to comment that 200 grains is a very heavy load. In the 18th century the service powder was poor so large charges were needed but the equivalent permission musket used a charge down the barrel of 125 grains and they were sighted out to 145 yards with 300 yards being the military engineering range of ‘musket shot’. For 50 yards 80 would be plenty in a good, but not best, powder.

[@Real11BangBang]

I have read several books on the making of powder in the 18th century. This is made to 18th century equivalent powder and yes it is a historically accurate loading

[@kingofthefleetians]

How many grains would someone recommend loading in this with fff powder

[@greywuuf]

One can't help but to wonder how much of this dispersion is due to sighting elements ( or lack there of) ....

[@greywuuf]

A "smooth rifle" as referred to in the Hudson Bay accounting books would be interesting. I think of something like a plains rifle smooth bored.....something g with actual sights.

[@glockbum]

Great video my friend, but you should have on shooting glasses. I know it’s not period correct, but if a piece of flint flys off into your eye, you could be blind!

[@ipodwalker]

Great video, just an aside have you seen this channel, Frontier Western Heritage, he has an interesting video on Custer and the possible fact that he was carrying a pre released colt thunder and may have committed self injury (suXXXXXX) with it. If you see the video, do one on what you think. Thanks

[@Real11BangBang]

i have seen it was interesting

[@Real11BangBang]

This is Ethan. Just so you know, I never forgot your comment on our very first live chat on our channel asking about the Pattern 1776 rifle. I'm currently reading up on it in De Witte Bailey's book British Military flintlock rifles 1740-1840 and I'm Going to be ordering a kit from the rifle shoppe next week.

[@ipodwalker]

@@Real11BangBang Great, really looking forward to it, must say it is one of a couple of rifles from that era I have had interest in. It has always puzzled me why the frontiersman never used the 1812 hall rifle for rapid shooting on the frontier. Thanks for looking into it. Love your guys channel.

[@rickshields6471]

200 grains??? Thats a crazy overload

[@justinji8634]

Another superb video! Powder is getting real expensive, if you are willing to sale your homemade powder , please leave me a dm since I am interested in authetic 1f musket powder! Again, excellent video.

[@Real11BangBang]

would love to but Selling powder requires a license. its not hard to make just follow everything black powders videos

[@johnndavis7647]

I bet those cloth patches burned through and thats why the poor accuracy. I would drop powder charge and change the lube to tallow. I would eep going down in powder charge until the patches stay together..

[@billmazzocco5275]

200 gr of powder? 2ff

[@Real11BangBang]

Yes

[@lawrencestanley8989]

A 200 grain charge!?!?!?! Holy monkey! Well, moderation in the face of evil is no virtue, and extremism in defense of liberty is no vice.

[@Real11BangBang]

lol very true

[@Maverick966]

The Pedersoli makes reproductions of the highest quality no doubt about that but they have a flaw which is on the quality itself, they are built too precise, too reliable, much better than the originals, they are not historically accurate, also they have Pedersoli marks on the barrel, Military Heritage makes guns closer to how they were built because they are not perfect just like the originals

[@randallross7683]

My Japanese Bess shots better with paper cartridges then with patch and ball

[@StevenMMan]

And it's important that you noted that specific 200 grains is what this musket likes. No matter what anyone else trys to spue. No two gun will react the same to a one load fits all system. That's just as true in the blackpowder world, as it in a custom percission hand loaded bench rest center fire. You have to test until you find the right combination. That what I'm all about Mountain man

[@Real11BangBang]

Exactly and I think I need to do another test with a patch round ball with lower powder charges because I think what's happening is that 200 grain charge is actually blowing the patch around the ball and causing the ball to go in weird directions

[@Real11BangBang]

One more reason why I think this is the case is because I did recover one of the patches downrange and it had a perfect hole blown right through the middle of it

[@Real11BangBang]

But I do believe that that 200 grain charge is enough to actually flatten out that soft lead and make it smash up against the sides of the barrel, giving a little more accurate shot with the other loading techniques

[@StevenMMan]

@11BangBang yes you do but it's not exactly why you think atheist in my opinion

[@StevenMMan]

@11BangBang last thing you want is a flatten round ball and never bought that what happens

[@conifergreen2]

Where did you get the tricorn hat?

[@Real11BangBang]

it came from townsends

[@conifergreen2]

@@Real11BangBang Ok thanks. Nice hat!