THE BROWN BESS VS THE CHARLEVILLE MUSKET!!!

[@Real11BangBang]

I think I'll probably remake this video in the future. There's some things on this video that I changed my mind about.

[@wingatebarraclough3553]

Maybe try "casting about" when reloading?

[@AnantaAndroscoggin]

I only got to see a Brown Bess firsthand once, I'm pretty sure it was a modern replica. The polish on the beautifully browned barrel gave the appearance of a finish at least 4 inches deep. Apparently that impressed me enough that I don't remember any other details of the musket.

[@classicgunstoday1972]

Whenever I see the delay in hammer strike and actual firing on these guns, I always think of Bugs Bunny cartoons making fun of that by allowing him time after the hammer strike to redirect or tie a knot in the barrel as it slowly begins to fire. Cool video. Years ago we had some friends in sons of revolution come to a demo with their muskets at a 4th of july barbecue in our backyard. Two of them made themselves sentries guarding the front porch entry. Lots of fun

[@Real11BangBang]

lol yeah when its all working right those locks are fast as a caplock.... when its humid lol thats another story

[@Techgnome21]

These seem so fun to shoot!! Its a shame the Charleville isn't talked about more. It was the US's first major military firearm. It was the basis of our firearms for 90 years. Rev war-civil war.

[@wingatebarraclough3553]

Exactly, the 1795, the 1816, 1842, all very charleville 69 smoothbore , stock architecture, barrel bands, bayonet

[@covertops19Z]

LOL.. Great intro Ethan.. love my M1795 Springfield, disguised as a Froggie and also my M1777 Charleville.. I see a long land pattern in my future someday soon. As I said before, you are an enabler..😢 I totally concur on in the field maintenance by the average Joe of the time and accuracy !👍

[@TheGunfighter45acp]

Thanks for doing this video! It really is nice to see these two ol' girls side by side. If I had to choose only one, gimme Ol' Char! (Sorry, Bess!)

[@Real11BangBang]

Gota agree with you

[@jrweischedel249]

I really enjoy these flintlock videos! I havent shot one in years since I worked at scout camp, you guys are really reigniting my interest in them thinking about picking one up this winter

[@Real11BangBang]

they are a ton of fun

[@ToreDL87]

We've all seen Dan Snow famously ranting about how horrible the Charleville was 🤣 The Brown Bess was larger caliber so would have been better for fowling. The Charleville was more economic in use of lead, so would have been better for the colonies. I like the way the Charleville looks, and would have selected it based on just that merit alone!

[@Real11BangBang]

lol good point

[@blackpowderfirearmenthusia3194]

Good Sunday morning to everyone, nice to wake up to a good Musket video. Thank you.

[@samcolt1079]

THE FRENCH FLINTLOCK WAS THE BEST BY FAR. END OF STORY

[@Real11BangBang]

lol if sam colt says it I believe it

[@samcolt1079]

@@Real11BangBang I see you know your flintlocks. My Charleville is the finest flintlock I ever owend. With the way you have said it proves my point. Very good Thank you

[@Leftenantmoron]

Brown bass beat napolean

[@dustini93]

⁠@@Leftenantmoronthe Spanish mauser was superior to the krag, but we still beat the Spanish. The charleville was superior.

[@Charleville1777]

I prefer the Charleville (of course i'm french ) but the Brown bess its very good rifle he made the british empire

[@twerktwerlkksalvador9586]

Me too and I am a Charleville

[@robertwilliamson922]

Neither one of them is a rifle. They have no rifling.

[@robertwilliamson922]

Not a rifle. No rifling in the barrel.

[@Charleville1777]

​@@robertwilliamson922 you right ist problem of traduction m'y english IS very Bad

[@theprancingprussian]

best thing in theory is that the brown bess is focused on ease of use and the charville is focussed on battlefield superiority, isnt superior by much and the brits tactics involve pretty much baiting fire so they can get closer while enemy reloads to maximise the damage done when firing

[@ooloncaluphid]

The first musket ball I found metal detecting measured .64 inch, and I was at a loss as for what it would have been used in because I didn't realize how undersized for the bore the Charleville musket ball was. After that, I think all the musket balls I've found have been for the BB.

[@oldgeezerproductions]

Every country in Europe (except the UK) adopted the design of the French muskets (especially the 1777 model), including the brand new United States. Nobody adopted the design of the Brown Bess (except for hunting pieces). The popularity of the French design is proof, for me, that the French musket was the superior military weapon. Here in the US we like to think that it was "Patriots (who didn't need pay)" with their Brown Bess' and sheer guts that won the Revolutionary war. I nearly got beat up when I reminded a bunch of guys that the French sent over tens of thousands of .69 muskets to arm Americans, nearly all the cannon and certainly nearly all the gunpowder, shot and flints not to mention all the tons of gold for the soldier's pay and thousands of trained infantry and cavalry (including one of my early ancestors). The French spent so lavishly to revenge themselves for the deep humiliation the British handed them during the French and Indian war, that they ruined their economy and that lead to the French Revolution and their king and queen (among many others) losing their heads.

[@keithorbell8946]

Isn’t that because of the Napoleonic French Empire though, so a slightly skewed assumption. The Charleville in America from 1776 would because the French supported the Colonists against the British, so once again Britain would not have supplied their enemies with weapons to fight against them. Just a little logic provides the answer as to why most of Europe used the Charleville rather than the Brown Bess…

[@oldgeezerproductions]

@@keithorbell8946 Perhaps, but it was not only France's allies that adopted the French musket's design (dare I say, superior design), but France's many enemies, such as the Russians and the Prussians adopted that design too. The Americans were culturally and economically much closer to the British than the French, but they (we) adopted and began manufacturing and subsequently manufactured muskets that were basically of the French design. In some important aspects, the Brown Bess was cheaper and easier to manufacture without all the fittings and using simple pins to hold everything together, but in the days when bayonets were important in war, the stronger built French design was chosen by everybody, except the British Empire, for its obvious more robust design.

[@keithorbell8946]

@@oldgeezerproductions Prussia was allied to France effectively from 1807 to 1812, France dominated most of mainland Europe and blockaded British trade (although the British blockade of French trade was arguably more effective). Also, didn’t the Prussians use the Potsdam musket from the 1720’s to the 1840’s (obviously in various upgrades and marks.)

[@rezlogan4787]

Even premium black powder wouldn’t be THAT much more powerful that it would allow a smaller caliber to keep pace with a larger one. Back in those days, having a fatter, heavier projectile out of a longer barrel was the key to power. Compared to modern smokeless guns, black powder guns are BIG.

[@recordno]

i know but the accuracy from smaller caliber is hard to ignore.

[@Real11BangBang]

I think you would be surprised at just how much of a difference there is 1760s black powder and modern black powder

[@rezlogan4787]

@@Real11BangBang Certainly. I wish they made the modern formula stronger.

[@tedarcher9120]

@@Real11BangBang but in 1810s british powder was much better than the french though, because of the blockade

[@_AnanasIEgenJuice_]

How much more power do you need considering that you cant hit anything past 100 yards?

[@studiodw12]

great comparison video for two rare rifles thank you for those who arrive in the BP and choose a model by watching your videos you continue the tradition and also thank you for the period costumes

[@Real11BangBang]

Glad you like them!

[@studiodw12]

@@Real11BangBang do you have anything on the Remington "Zouave" 1863 rifle?

[@Real11BangBang]

Yes we do

[@studiodw12]

explain the history of the "zouave" who made and used it, not everyone agrees @@Real11BangBang

[@MilsurpMikeChannel]

Great video. I am considering getting one of each from Veteran Arms.

[@Real11BangBang]

they have good customer service over there

[@marcuswieder1564]

It was designed a bit later, but my choice is the Prussian Infanteriegewehr M/1801 (Nothardt-Gewehr) - one of the best muskets of its time.

[@buckmc965]

Just a quick question if I were to buy the charleville should I get the 1766 or 77? Will probably just squirrel hunt and shoot round balls

[@Real11BangBang]

That all comes down to personal preference. If it were me, I would pick the 1766 due to its importance in the American revolution. However, if you want one that is closer to the original, the 1777 is closer to unoriginal an ix musket then the 1766 made in India is to an original however, with a little bit of time And patience one can take an Indian 1766 and make it a project gun and build a pretty historically accurate 1766. I have a video on that as well

[@buckmc965]

Thank you very much for the quick reply and I watch alot of yalls videos. I already have the mh 42 inch trade gun and love it I have scraped it down and black walnut and 5 coat blo and repeat coats of bw/blo looks very nice

[@buckmc965]

And 7 coats of laurel mountain

[@kieranfox6633]

Excellent, really enjoyed this

[@Real11BangBang]

Glad you enjoyed it

[@squawk3120]

I would go with a Charleville but its so similar to my 1842 Springfield and I want something profoundly different than it.

[@Real11BangBang]

variety is the spice of life

[@billbahr]

Great video! Good luck on the Charleville Musket Cleaning! :)

[@Real11BangBang]

Thanks!

[@mausercal65]

What’s the best Indian made musket out there ? There’s several importers . I’d value your opinions.

[@SeaDog337]

The majority of importers get their guns/parts from the same manufacturers in India, so it all comes down to the specific importer. Veteran Arms gets parts kits which they assemble, and they do a very good job of tuning the locks and replacing weaker components like the cheap ramrods. Loyalist Arms likewise assembles India made kits although and I've heard their craftsmanship is also pretty good. In both cases, you're looking at a sometimes substantial wait because they may have a backlog of orders to get through. Another option, if you're willing to put the work in yourself, is to go with Military Heritage. They're by far the cheapest... but they're by far the cheapest. The locks may need quite a bit of work to get operating smoothly (e.g. The frizzen on my blunderbuss wouldn't open all the way on firing) and you'll have to drill out the touch hole on anything you buy from them. Likewise, their fit and finish isn't as nice although it's not beyond saving. It really comes down to what you're looking for specifically. I would always argue 'buy quality, buy once' but I know that's not always practical especially for new shooters. If you're just interested in shooting BP then there are other options like Traditions, whose kentucky and hawken rifles are cheap but not a terrible starting point for getting into the hobby. Apologies for the long post, but hopefully you got something out of it.

[@mausercal65]

@@SeaDog337 thank you

[@dylanwhite3308]

Fusil de chasse vs. Northwest trade gun

[@Real11BangBang]

We will give that a try

[@johnndavis7647]

The heavier ball would put more resistance against the powder so it would increase pressure and get better performance with mediocre quality powder. This is true. However at the ranges where muskets were used the 69 killed and wounded just as well as the 75 ball. The 69 gave more balls to the pound Than the 75. 16 balls vs 10. The actual number was higher due to the use of under sized balls for ease of loading. This was attractive to the colonies who were always strapped for cash. I wouldn't feel under gunned with either one. But I think the Charleyville is the better design. Thanks for the video.

[@henryofskalitz2228]

The brown bess makes for a much better buck and ball gun for hunting

[@johnndavis7647]

@@henryofskalitz2228 you wouldnt use buck and ball for hunting. You would use one or the other. The idea behind the buck and ball load was to hit and wound the enemy if at all possible. Mechaak Browning in his book '50 years a hunter" says that he started out with buck and ball because that was how an old timer told him to load his old musket. He quickly gave that up as ineffective on game. True the Brown Bess would take bigger shot and that's an advantage We are comparing the 10 gauge to the 16 gauge.

[@henryofskalitz2228]

@@johnndavis7647 buck and ball is essentially buck shot with a large ball on the side it's effective against dangerous game like mountain lions, bear, moose.

[@johnndavis7647]

@@henryofskalitz2228 And you know this how? Buck and ball was the military load of the day because it gave inaccurate weapons the highest possibility of wounding an enemy soldier when firing at masses of troops.. Wounding game is not what you want to do. The buckshot part of the load would make the solid shot less accurate than a single ball alone and cost some velocity too. Neither of these things are good for hunting.

[@johnndavis7647]

@@henryofskalitz2228 no its a big round ball loaded in a paper cartridge with 3 buckshot. Designed to increase hit probability. Sometimes some people loaded as many as six buckshot but paper cartridges usually only carried three. There are limits to what a gun and a shoulder can stand.

[@zekejoyd2014]

How is the recoil in these versus a Mosin Nagant, or Mannlicher M95? The caliber is huge but since it’s black powder, does that change the recoil impulse?

[@Real11BangBang]

I would say it's about twice that of a mosin It's actually got a pretty stout recoil, especially in the brown bess the charlieville is a little less brutal lol

[@williamgregory6684]

You should do a video on the 3 band Enfield and the Springfield,also the Enfield Carbine and the J P Murray Carbine?? or the Mississippi rifle Carbine??. Great video as always !!!

[@Real11BangBang]

lol we will get to them eventually

[@forexdragon]

I wonder how powerful the standard short pattern Brown Bess would be compared to the Charleville as opposed the long pattern one in this video?

[@Real11BangBang]

thats something we may need to visit in a future video

[@bobafettslaundryroom755]

Thanks for doing this. Learned a few things!

[@Real11BangBang]

Glad it was helpful!

[@snappers_antique_firearms]

My hearts to the charleville

[@tmoney007confederation7]

With buck & ball the Brown Bess had better spread pattern than the Charleville. The Brown Bess was easier to load get between 3 to 5 rounds a minute and the Charleville would be at 2 to 4 rounds per minute. Max for the Brown Bess though not practical is 6 rounds per minute & the Charleville is probably 5 rounds per minute. This is mainly due to the BORE SIZE of both FIRELOCKS.

[@MadrasArsenal]

The Long Land Pattern Bess is a beast to trek with, but I am still partial to the Bess. 😢

[@Real11BangBang]

lol cant be beat for power

[@patricklioneljonson2747]

Charleville hands down. Viva La France.

[@chroma6947]

I heard that in the napoleonic period british powder was actually better than french

[@chroma6947]

Here's the video: kzbin.info/www/bejne/gHyrg4qonJaje5o

[@Real11BangBang]

you are right by the 1800s england had Caught up and even Surpassed french powder. in the 17 20s and 30s when they were developing these guns the french were useing a far superior willow wood for charcoal that fouled much less

[@chroma6947]

@@Real11BangBang Ah i see thanks for the info

[@malgremor85]

The Brown Bess is .75 cal & the Charleville is .69. You can use Charleville ammo in the Brown Bess, albeit somewhat loose; but you can't do the reverse.

[@Real11BangBang]

So actually you can can somewhat use the reverse as I now own original muskets of these. I've noticed that the original French guns actually have a bore diameter closer to 70 caliber and you can put a 69 caliber paper cartridge down it

[@mikebecker12]

Just got through watching your video on the brown bess vs charlyville. Very good:) . I have a bess and it works very well for me. I really enjoy going up against Indian trade muskets. We use clay birds for one of the shooting stations and we fly them. Coarse we are using shot. The trade muskets have to be ready on the spot. Where I can allow some distance to take a better aim. It's a good gun to shoot. I'd enjoy shooting with you and your boys. Take care and keep on the trail. T.T.

[@Real11BangBang]

yeah the char is hard to beat

[@bobfugazy4916]

Do they come in 6.5 Creedmoor? Ha,ha. Very enjoyable video. I did have a serious question, do they have precision competitions for range, accuracy for muskets or more generally, black powder rifles? Keep up the great vids.

[@Real11BangBang]

yes they do i suggest the channel i love muzzleloading for more info on that subject

[@revere0311]

Where did you get the Charleville from? Great video!

[@Real11BangBang]

it came from military Heritage.com

[@johnnottahcal5725]

Oh man! Where does one order the ‘peasant’ !? 😂 I love them both equally. Just back from the range with the Roger’s Rangers’ Bess carbine and man o man do I sport a shei eat’in grin. 50 rounds-no misfires AND that’s even after I did a touchhole liner so YEAH! I do prefer cleaning the French Charleville more better BUT then .75 is sweet! 😎

[@stuartspence79]

In the battle of Quebec the British also loaded 2 balls in their muskets instead of one made a massive fire power difference and helped with a British victory to end the 7 year war maybe another difference in the muskets

[@duncanbradshaw8993]

What's the relative age of the guns? The brown bess could use charleville ammunition but the charleville couldn't use the brown bess type. I enjoyed the video 🙂

[@normalcitizen_1]

Very cool video. It would be interesting if the British went the route as many other Europeans did with barrel bands instead of pins, would have made them a bit better I believe. Anyway I have a video Idea for you guys: “Alternative ammunition, zinc, tin and steel” So I’m thinking that you could try alternative metals in your muskets and see for accuracy, ease of making and costs compared to lead. Patch, no patch and maybe wear differences

[@mrwdpkr5851]

0:22 have at yew -haHA !

[@johnmoreno9636]

Being that they are both military muskets that Colonials would have seen, what does period sources say about a preference? Also, a .69 would kill you just as good as a Brown Bess, but with lighter bullets you could carry more rounds or have a lighter load marching - major advantages for infantry. Also, a lighter musket makes for easier marching and gun handling. After the Rev War, when you have lots of both types floating around, I wonder which one was considered more desirable? Certainly, the American military patterned its future muskets on the Charleville.

[@recordno]

really hope you review new land pattern brown bess next.

[@Real11BangBang]

It is planned somtime in the future

[@History_Coffee]

Don't ask me where I read it, probably some forum, but I saw an excerpt about the marines during the barbary war privately purchasing india pattern brown bess's because it was preferred over the issue Springfield which was a copy of the charleville.

[@JamesJohnson-vy6ji]

Charaville a much more modern rifle for a number of reasons

[@SeaDog337]

Powder quality is a bit of a gash argument because that will vary depending upon the circumstances of the conflict and can be affected by local supply limitations. As for the bayonet lugs, it's not a huge deal when regiments are firing volleys at each other, and even under optimal conditions you still lack a rear sight. The major difference to consider here is logistics - the BB uses larger rounds and thus more lead, which is heavy to transport in large quantities and costs more in the long run. Likewise, the smaller caliber of the Chucky and potentially better powder would alleviate the need for a big a charge - saving on powder. However, I'm also of the camp that any smoothbore service musket is ultimately just a loud spear. But all said and done, the best gun is the one you shoot best.

[@cozakaxo]

do one with the potsdam musket in it too

[@Real11BangBang]

we will have to get one

[@duybear4023]

I prefer German Jaeger rifles the Hessian troops used. Though the Hessians also used Potzdam muskets for a fairer comparison.

[@Real11BangBang]

we will review a potzdam some day

[@puebespuebes8589]

A musket maker said that the french prefered to use metal ring to fix the barrel on the stock because it was easier to produce will the british used metal pin because it looked better.

[@2adamast]

Seen a Charleville with brass rings, "from the imperial guard" Back then shiny metal looked fine.

[@rc6147]

Charleville!!

[@Flyingcircustailwheel]

I love the bess but unfortunately I think it gets it's ass kicked lol.

[@احمدتحسين-ص2ه]

Does it contain a breech plug?

[@Real11BangBang]

yes

[@احمدتحسين-ص2ه]

@@Real11BangBang Can I remove it if necessary

[@revere0311]

Charleville is best. Hands down.

[@SlickSixguns]

Size matters

[@garydavis1845]

The French may have had better guns but the British better soldiers.It's not always better guns that win battles.It's the men using them.

[@EpicTalfo]

Great video guys👍👍👍👌. Love to watch your content. Since two weeks I'm a happy owner of a Brown Bess aswell. Till now I'm shooting percussion rifles, pistols and a flintlock pistol but the Bess is my first musket "without" sights. Haven't tried it out yet cause I'm still waiting for the flints to arrive. I'm not quite sure about the point of aim with that bayonet lug. What load do you use, and whats your point of aim. Hope to hear from you👍😊 Bye👋

[@Real11BangBang]

congratulations 🎊. we generally shoot shoot a 1f powder in the bess the point of verys from gun to gun. the beauty of it is you can shoot what ever load you want. most people like 110 grains.... however historical loads rang anywhere from 150 to 200 [massive recoil with that load] sometimes when caleb is just plinking he loads 30 grains and that works as well 😀

[@EpicTalfo]

@@Real11BangBang Thanks guys👍 200 grains.... isn't that a bit to much? The maximum load in pedersolis load data sheet is 100 grains for the bess. I wouldnt feel safe to shoot the double amount of the maximum load. But please tell me how you handle it. You are way more experienced with smoothbore flintlocks than I am. Have a nice day and keep up the good work.

[@Nostrildomus]

* * * C00L * * *

[@dsmiles4324]

That is Not the reason the British musket caliber was larger! It was generally .80!

[@julianjames2899]

Brown Bess is best. Thank you for coming to my Ted Talk *this user is highly bias toward british greatness and is easily distracted by the colour red*

[@Real11BangBang]

😆😆😆

[@musketman2008]

You make great videos

[@Real11BangBang]

Glad you like them!

[@TheTyler701]

Bro get real ones!! I dont have an original Charly but i have a 95 springfield which is good enough

[@Real11BangBang]

our channel is mostly built on originals. kzbin.info/www/bejne/iGGkgWWQo72rkLM

[@nikitamckeever5403]

The key is volley fire and the ease of loading the larger calibre wins every time for large groups of soldiers putting simultaneous lead balls on mass hurling towards the enemy means the Brown Bess tops out . However if I needed a musket for personal everyday hunting and protection the Charleville has it . The Bess can use captured French balls where as the Charleville cannot use the Bess’ balls . Me being an Englishman might sway me to being a bit bias to the Bess 😉

[@Real11BangBang]

lol very good points thankyou

[@Mulberry2000]

The video is missing the point of the role of the musket in 18th century battles, they were not meant to be accurate sharp shooters so having a sight at the end of the barrel is pointless. Why? One the musket was not that accurate and most shooting would be about 50 yards then a bayonet charge. Secondly the use of black powder made using a barrel sight redundant as you could not see the enemy due so much smoke. Thirdly the brits wanted a cheap musket that could last long and be repaired if broken, if not they can be replaced. After all they were giving them to the ordinary soldiers of the line. Fourth if you want to shoot someone important you used a rifle et al. Basically the musket was used in mass line formations at a very close distance, so having 3 or2 rows of 600+ men firing at 50 yards is lot of balls flying, they were the nearest to our machine guns of today. If you could get 3 rounds per minute off that's about 1800 balls per minute and that is a lot of lead flying about and at really close distances. Modern rifles can fire about 600 rounds per minute (they would not do that ) and you can see why muskets were used in mass formations etc in the 18th century. People in the past did things for a reason and it made sense with thin their technology frame work.

[@Real11BangBang]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/Z6vKf2OdiaaSY6ssi=cW6RZK0EfQxIgoOm

[@2adamast]

And what does unimportant you do when their elusive skirmishers (60 of the 360 man standing at over 500 m) engage you from nowhere or maybe 200 -300 m at two shots per minute

[@jeffreyrobinson3555]

Charley seems to check the boxes and win, But Bess wine most of the battles against Charley

[@Real11BangBang]

Lol you got a point

[@michelrousseau950]

American Revolution was won with Charleville. ;)

[@jeffreyrobinson3555]

@@michelrousseau950 well that is true

[@ImStillAiden]

in wars with muskets, the most important factor is how fast it can fire, so i say the brown bess wins.

[@Real11BangBang]

I need to make a part 2 to this video. There is so much more information that I've learned since I dropped this one

[@carjensen]

Get rid of the music

[@Real11BangBang]

no

[@nathandurbin9260]

Uk highest tax rate is 45% us is 50 % those French guns seem to have backfired 😂

[@wkdmrtease8141]

The Brown Bess can use Charleville .69 ammo but the Charleville cannot use .75 Brown Bess ammo! Just for that reason the Bess is a more versatile better weapon!