The 2022 Holberg Debate w/ John Mearsheimer and Carl Bildt: Ukraine, Russia, China and the West

[@HolbergPrize]

Don't miss the 2023 Holberg Debate on December 2. Anil Seth, Tanya Luhrmann and Rupert Sheldrake will debate the question: "Does Consciousness Extend Beyod Brains?" kzbin.info/www/bejne/pZe2hpSQhLxsnpo Feel free to follow the event page on Facebook: facebook.com/events/315569814476878 More information on the Holberg Prize webpage: holbergprize.org/en/2023-holberg-debate-does-consciousness-extend-beyond-brains

[@hairlessape5107]

Try to get a neutral moderator for that one, it would be more in the spirit of the basic idea behind free speech and debate.

[@edwardlouisbernays2469]

Russian State Duma passes total ban on GMO crops and animals. 27, 2016 Russia’s State Duma adopted Friday the third and final reading of a government bill that introduces a total ban on the cultivation and breeding in Russia of genetically modified (GM) plants and animals, except for scientific research purposes. The State Duma has also given the Russian Government the right to prevent the import of products containing GMOs in to Russia, if it is revealed that a specific GMO has a negative impact on human health and/or the environment. Russia’s Agriculture Minister, Alexander Tkachev, stated Friday, ”The Ministry of Agriculture is strongly against GMOs, Russian products will remain clean.” The initial first reading of the government bill was held in 2015 and this was followed by the second reading in the Sate Duma earlier this week. The additions in the final bill included the introduction of fines that will be placed on people or companies that violate the ban: a fine of 10,000-50,000 ($150-$750) rubles for individuals and 100,000-500,000 rubles for legal entities ($1,500-$7,500). The Russian Government has stood strong in the face of increasing pressure from U.S. biotech companies and they have also managed to see through the Russian pro-GMO forces’ misleading claims and pseudoscience. In December 2015, Russian President Vladimir Putin told the Russian Parliament that Russia should become the world’s largest supplier of organic foods. Also in 2015, Russian Deputy Prime Minister Arkady Dvorkovich stated that it is not necessary to use genetic modification to feed the world, at the 12th International "Science and Technology in Society" (STS) forum in Kyoto, Japan. This strength shown by the Russian government was also shown early in 2016 when they dealt a huge blow to U.S. farmers, by banning all imports of U.S. soybeans and corn due to microbial and GMO contamination.

[@stephengee4182]

Before Putin, Russia had the unquestioned 2nd best standing army in the world. Months after Putin's invasion into Ukraine, Zelensky has clearly shown that Russia's army was second best in Ukraine. Afterwards Prigozhin showed to the world that Putin's army was also second best in Russia. In the war between Putin and surviving Nazi armies across the kaput Crimea Kerch Strait Bridge, Prigozhin and Zelensky just wanted ammunition, while the Covid fearful Putin just needs a ride.

[@stephengee4182]

At the rate that the Putin War is losing Eastern military brainpower, Mearsheirmer should volunteer much needed mercenary and military rear field command insights.

[@katong1953]

@stephengee. You are talking crap. Talk fact; don't give us fantasyland wishful thinking. Today, the average age of the Ukrainian military is 43 years. It must be the oldest military in the world. One 71 year old man was found in a Ukrainian tank crew. A pregnant woman Ukrainian soldier surrendered to the Russians. These are the objective facts that show that the Ukrainian military is toast.

[@michaels33]

This debate was one sided because the moderator was clearly an advocate of Bildt’s position. But had one main value, it shows the actual problem we face. .. European hard headedness combined with an unshakable belief that they are Holy and Russia is always evil. This is the sole cause of the whole problem. An example can be seen where the woman stated that buying Russian gas was a sort of favor they were going to appease Russia. It was a policy designed to let euros have cheap gas and avoid drilling at home… but she manages as though it was some magnanimous act. And then the way he keeps prattling on about bringing down the Russian government. And I didn’t notice the slightest concern about the rise of Galician nazism and how Russia is always going to react to a Nazi dominated regime in its border. Last, does anyone remember Kosovo? Libya? Syria? As I said, at least this clearly exposes the actual problem.

[@paoz5087]

I was surprise she didn't take her chair beside Carl and whisper in his ear...

[@wizmobile4424]

I cannot agree more with you. Mearsheimer was very polite and didn't mention anything about the Nazis controling Zelensky when Carl said that Ukraine is a democratic country.

[@tonybooth4]

I would encourage people to watch Professor Timothy Synder lectures on Ukrainian history at Yale. Are there unsavoury people in Ukrainian politics for sure but a naive approach to Russian or Putin s rewriting history is problematic

[@tpeterson9140]

How is Ukraine "nazi dominated"? Nazi parties got almost no votes and have no power or influence in their goverment. Their president is a jew. Ur comment is basically just russian propaganda.

[@bellakrinkle9381]

Just another US created Proxy War. People have no ideas of how the US operates to continue their Power over all nations. I wish the World luck. I wonder why the world is a complete mess; perhaps people are too unsophisticated?

[@martinknutsson8374]

I am suprised that Carl actually agreed to do this debate. He is a politician not an academic. Either he doesn't understand international politics, which I highly doubt, or he is arrogant enough to try pushing the same narratives that we get in mainstream media. This doesn't hold when he debate someone like Mearsheimer.

[@bilder43]

It´s embarrising to listen to Bildt. So stuck in his bad knowledge and in his propaganda talking. What is the role of the moderator. Is it to be arrogant?

[@martinknutsson8374]

To be honest, I find some satisfaction seeing Carl making a fool of himself 😁

[@martinknutsson8374]

You are probably right. Also, remember that Carl was a supporter of US aggression in Iraq and doesnt have a moral ground to stand on.

[@andreimustata5922]

@@bilder43 I am not saying that I agree with Bildt, but he makes good points, I have no idea what you mean by being embarrassing. There is not much difference in knowledge between the 2 but there is a big difference in interpretation. Using demeaning language about people we don't agree is of poor taste.

[@siamcharm7904]

bildt is a memberof cfr and the rand corp, both american neocon hotspots.

[@allenjasson7551]

The role of Sweden in the persecution of Julian Assange says all we need to know about Carl Bildt's position on Ukraine; it's a matter of whitewash, blur and obfuscate everything that stands in the way of the US-endorsed narrative. This Witch who is purportedly moderating the debate seems to be more of a back-up for Carl Bildt, why is she participating in the debate? Things pretty-much end with her and Bildt completely talking over Mearsheimer. In a world full of intelligent people they would be the village idiots.

[@dantag5195]

Sweden is a lapdog of USA.

[@Nietzscheable]

She has her own Agenda?

[@buckshot704]

@@Nietzscheable ; No doubt an agenda of European elitism, combined with climate change zealotry.

[@alohatime2171]

US and EU don’t care about Ukraine. Only if it aligns with their own interest. Same as Russia. The politician debater who makes it sound like US and EU are full time charity crusaders who want to enforce will of Ukrainian people is insanely propagandist and ultimately counterproductive

[@buckshot704]

@@alohatime2171 ; I will agree that the west has no concern about sacrificing the Ukrainian people in their attempt to move NATO even further eastward, and force political upheaval that follows the orders of Brussels and Washington DC.

[@jackspring7709]

Given that fear has been used to herd us into the most dangerous positions we have ever been in, especially in the last 20 years, I would argue that fear has achieved the direct opposite of keeping us safe.

[@evil_eye-04]

What is the point of your comment? It doesn't mean anything. What fear? Who experiences it, drug addicts? Who are "us"? Why do you think it would have been better if something would have been done differently? What could have been done differently? Why do you think it was fear that caused the deterioration of "your" safety?

[@Messenger_5]

I fear daily

[@warfarenotwarfair5655]

​@@salted_lizardHis comment says nothing, "just fear bro". These fears are quite real as there are many dictatorships around the world that want to control their neighbors.

[@NameL3ss71]

take a long look around sweetheart, or perhaps you dont go outside? @@evil_eye-04

[@abrambadal8997]

NOT ONLY FEAR BUT WORST CONSCIOUS MEDIATIC PROPAGANDA CALLED NEW WORLD ORDER ( leading to present mess of nuclear war dangers and to our being trapped by USA--FINANCIAL--MILITARY--INDUSTRIAL GLOBAL COMPLEX ) @@evil_eye-04

[@jonhvidsten2407]

As a Swede, I remember the days when Palme was still alive and Carl Bildt was universally considered to be a CIA puppet - and a right-wing extremist. Those were the days of Reason...

[@skdfdjkdfjkd]

as a Russian troll you mean 😅

[@johnd2574]

True, Bildt ran off to Washington DC with confidential information from the investigations done by the 'submarine commission'. In any other normal country he would have been charged for high treason. In Sweden he was promoted with various minister posts. This guy is a lizard and couldn't even refrain from lying also in this debate.

[@jenniferlawrence2701]

Is he one of the ones who thought filling Sweden with non-Europeans would be a good idea?

[@LajosArpad85]

@@jenniferlawrence2701 Good question, I don't know the answer, but I suspect he has taken part of that.

[@LajosArpad85]

Extreme hypocrisy is shown by Bildt. He has taken some part politically in the processes that ultimately have taken apart Yugoslavia, totally disrespecting the territorial integrity of the Serbs and after Bosnia, Kosovo, Croatia, Slovenia, Macedonia, Albania have been sliced from Yugoslavia, he claims that he is against violent border changes. How dare he?

[@pegasos3235]

I've really been waiting so long for discussions like this! You rarely see them in the mainstream media in Finland these days. Both sides have good arguments, but Prof. Mearsheimer has so much more insight and knowledge of history and international politics and he is able to apply the laws of cause and effect and even predict possible future scenarios. A wise man.

[@senior_java]

Are you for real? Mearsheimer is a well-known trojan horse, who pushes dictator totalitarian narrative. Don't be delusional. High class paid actor.

[@whatslifespurpose]

He predicted the Ukraine conflict long before it happened. It is on youtube.

[@spbname8121]

Could not agree with you more. the problem is however we have warmongers, fools and the brainwashed at the helm.

[@AmisCorolla]

finland is messed up. our leaders are lunatics.

[@crashul]

Not only that but one was reading from notes the other one spoke freely

[@lassel1344]

Totally agree with Professor Mearsheimer. Had NATO accepted Russia as a member, this would never have happened. One detail I think both missed is how the military industry in the US lobbies and donates money to create in conflicts in order to sell weapons. The arms industry in the USA was terrified that their market would be eroded if Russia became a NATO member. Another thing that was not touched on was the 2014 coup d'état in Ukraine which the US financed and also helped appoint who would sit in the government. There, the US made a big mistake by appointing so many fascists who hate everything Russian. If they had good intentions, they would have allowed the country to become a federation with great self-determination. This proves that the West and Bildt have evil intentions. Russia accepted the Minsk agreement, which could solve the problem, but the US and the West avoided it. Therefore, the West bears the greatest responsibility for the conflict between NATO and Russia in Ukraine. That so many have to die is deplorable and the vast majority are Ukrainians who should understand better. Ukraine is just a game plan for NATO expansion.

[@NightOwlinNewOrleans]

Russia wasn’t accepted for 2 reasons. NATO was created to defend the world against Russia. And they did not want to follow the outlines of what it took to become a member. They wanted special exceptions to be made so they could continue their corrupt government and unjust court system to start.

[@tpeterson9140]

Why would anyone want Russia in NATO when its run by a criminals that support and fund terror?

[@БогданБеркут]

In order to become a member of NATO, you must have at least some standards of budget transparency that will not allow the Russian elite to build their tasteless palaces. Guess what they'll choose. There was no coup in 2014. The Ukrainian parliament, in which Yanukovych had a majority, removed him from power by 328 votes out of 450 AFTER he fled. Yanukovych and the opposition had an agreement that he would remain president until the re-election, potentially for another year. The collapse of the coalition is not a coup. Russia did not "accept the Minsk agreements"; it imposed them on Ukraine. The Minsk agreements are a continuation of aggression by diplomatic means, the purpose of which is to limit the sovereignty of Ukraine. During the signing of both agreements, the Russian army invaded Ukraine in order to pressure Poroshenko to make concessions. Literally at the time of the signing of the second agreements, the Russian army was trying to encircle the Ukrainian forces around Debaltseve.

[@bellakrinkle9381]

And there is no discussion that the US is separately trying to maintain the Petro Dollar- its EDGE over the entire world. I do not trust US to do the right thing for the World. This should be the primary concern, at this point in time.

[@Peter-fi7tu]

right....latest statement from the WH is : "The United States believes that Zelensky is not ready now to negotiate with Russia about the situation around Ukraine"-The White House ----- the US has ofc the final say in all of this...ukraine is 100% a puppet of the US. if u like to believe this is all about the defense of the "sovereignty" of ukraine then idk what to say sry...neither ukraine nore any european state has any say in this sry

[@dembabaldeh5084]

I've lived in the West for almost 12 years now specifically in Germany, I can't begin to express my gratitude and happiness since I've been here, the West is a really good place to learn work, and live life as we know it, but in my experience, the policy and political lines of the West are a disaster it has always been I can't really understand why on earth how's even possible considering the people their level of education their innovations their abilities for greatness it's unbelievable that their politicians and policies don't go by the majority of the people it's uncomprehensible it's a disaster, look at this guy Karl why on earth should people like this represent the Western opinions on politics, The level of Johns's education is way too above Karl basically doesn't have the level of education to debate John it's a shame that the West are wrong in foreign policy.

[@БогданБеркут]

Johns uses his education to justify the first war of conquest in Europe since the end of World War II.

[@Leiska86]

Bildt doesn't represent Western opinions, he represents his own opinions, just like all the rest of us. In liberal democracies policies largely align with the will of the people, because doing otherwise doesn't get you re-elected. That's how democracy works. Just because you disagree, it doesn't mean most other people share your (probably misguided) views.

[@asdfkgkspr284]

@@Leiska86if going against the will of the people means you aren’t reelected, explain the Israel lobby in American politics

[@Leiska86]

@@asdfkgkspr284 What is there to explain?

[@danieldavidisson9906]

I am an activist in Australia. A close friend is German, so I watch a lot of German news/ elections. Germans are far more politically conscious than the Anglo-Saxon West, where it is at absolute zero. German public TV allows for freedom of speech, which does not exist in the West. (Apart from BBC satirical comedy) Germany also has a plurality of political parties, from moderate social democratic left to the far right. Australia, the US and Britain all have a two-party system: one right-wing party and one far-right party bordering on pyschotic. The problem in the Anglo-Saxon West is that the populations have been pacified and infantilized and incapable of forming any cohesive opposition, and that is how idiots get to spew out their garbage to a dumbed down populace. Denial is so entrenched that no one even talks about politics in Australia, and if you bring up the subject, you are shut down immediately. There are many Australians who hate the current administration, but they feel isolated and hopeless, as there is no forum, no where for them to express their dissatisfaction. If the US administration continues along its current trajectory, that it can't deviate from without a total economic collapse, the crows we be the dominate species before long postmodernopenings.com › wp-content › uploads › 2014 › 07 › PO_June2014_1_39to55.pdf The Infantilization of the Postmodern Adult and the Figure of Kidult The Infantilization of the Postmodern Adult and the Figure of Kidult Jacopo BERNARDINI 39 The Infantilization of the Postmodern Adult and the Figure of Kidult Jacopo BERNARDINI1 Abstract Being young today is no longer a transitory stage, but rather a choice of life, well established and brutally promoted by the media system.

[@milivojmilosevic1172]

It seems that this war was preventable, could have been prevented, and it was the duty of our leaders to prevent this awful tragedy from occurring. Even the politicians most blinded by ideology should have foreseen this disaster, but they did not lift a finger to prevent it.

[@ogawk]

true. our world leaders wanted this war to get more money for their own pockets. we should have known better. we are manipulated by fear and through fear, we follow. The covid19 was a starting point of this fear experiment. people should resist their own govt when we know better. any war of any kind will not help our country at any cost. each country has its own culture and beliefs, and we have no goddamn reason to act as police to say what is wrong and right to other countries. Heck we have a lot of problems inside our own for crying out loud!

[@tommyhorne3303]

I'd venture to say they did, with that in mind, what are they REALLY UP 2 ????

[@Nietzscheable]

Forseeable and preventable for those who sought peace.

[@milivojmilosevic1172]

In their minds, they threw Ukraine to the dogs, hoping the Russians get indigestion. They have no care for how many thousands of Ukranian corpses are being scattered around. Borders on psychopathic behaviour.

[@enrobsorussell]

Blinded by dollars into their own pockets more like.

[@JCDenton42069]

Mearshiemer: "This could escalate and we need the great powers to talk" Bildt and host: "So what you are saying is you hate Ukraine?!"

[@ABCtriplets]

The lady and Bilt are like naive teens

[@mirkotmusic7739]

Karl Bild is a joke. American joke.

[@achillestortoise]

Mearsheimer’s biggest flaw in the Ukraine question, is that he does not allow Ukraine and Ukrainians any agency. To him it seems that Ukraine is to be viewed as a Russian colony, more or less. This is deeply misguided…

[@NZIGNANTI]

@@achillestortoise Misguided? They are the same people. How is this misguided? You are misguided.

[@hazelwray4184]

@@achillestortoise Starting with the referendum/poll of 1994, shortly after Ukrainian independence in 1991, Donbas and Crimea have several times expressed a desire for greater autonomy within Ukraine. Let's not forget this began as a civil war...something Russia privately warned the US might happen in 2008.

[@mikaelreichel3759]

"In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act." -- George Orwell

[@luigimario4458]

Who is telling the truth in this debate?

[@mikaelreichel3759]

@@luigimario4458 If I told you there is risk you will not take my word for it. Do as I have, research and you will find. It may help to begin with Mearsheimers earlier lectures already from 2014 here on YT. Former chancellor Merkel said recently; "the Minsk agreements where only useful to give time to arm Ukraine". It is a piece in the puzzle that builds the image of truth.

[@andriusp2955]

Arm Ukraine - with what? 5000 helmets Lambrecht sent in January? 😁There was no arming of Ukraine before miscalculated invasion by stupid kremlin gang.

[@dixonpinfold2582]

@@andriusp2955 And now, as of this morning, Lambrecht is gone. 👏👏

[@dixonpinfold2582]

Let those words give courage to the best of the Russian people, those who oppose Putin's monstrous campaign of mass mer dur, mass ray p, mass torture, mass destruction, mass kidnapping and mass larceny.

[@curtisvalle5141]

As a proud 67 yr old American, it is a sobering thought that I've been lied to by my Gov't for 67 years.

[@theeclecticjam3241]

I hear you ,very disappointing

[@EBDeveloper]

[@giuseppe_M]

It's something that you should have assumed and expected. With all due respect, You haven't even seen the tip of the ice berg

[@deliobaoduzzi6450]

Exactly ...by a bunch of morons.

[@VangelVe]

Disappointed? Do you expect ANY government to tell the truth? Truth pushes you out of power, and you are no longer in the government.

[@MichaelBluford]

This debate would have benefitted greatly from a moderator capable of asking questions without injecting her own incompetent opinions at every turn.

[@mensrea1251]

I don't mind her bias in the sense she does have a role to play in presenting the commonly understood Western narrative of the war. But her lack of preparation and knowledge was hard to watch. She's a well-meaning, uneducated air head.

[@Gvarab]

Try to find a nordic academic, politician or media personality not impregnated by their own russophobic narrative. Good Luck!

[@seangong5001]

She has her side already before it started. For that reason, I admit John a lot!

[@santoriniblue8413]

@@Gvarab She was also very rude, almost shouting at Mersheimer at 1:21 onwards, which clearly shows her biass and unability to moderate a debate which pretends to enrich with divergent opinions. Confusing a debate with a rally the flag around UA ... the same would be appliable to a symmetrical false debate in Serbia or Hungary, without a argued debate of all points. Mersheimer shows with his calm but firm arguments that he is a master at this.

[@Gvarab]

@@santoriniblue8413 That is true.I googled her and was surpårised to see that she was a respected academic in the same field as Mearsheimer and not a journalist.

[@draganmiletic940]

What I find amazing, is that in these kind of debates is what everyone is ignoring, is the breakup of Yugoslavia and the 10 years of civil war that followed. And, Carl Bildt was playing a major part in it. Like, it never happened. And all the precedents started there.

[@Антрацит-й3л]

absolutely agree. nobody wants to rising up this questions. coz many criminals against humanity (politicians), who participated in destroying of Yugoslavia are still alive. Russia will make a precedent. The Tribunal will be really INTERNATIONAL. Not the US pocket tribunal.

[@njswampfox474]

If you accept Putin's aggressive and paranoid worldview as legitimate, it all follows. But, predictably that is the road to hell.

[@afritimm]

@@Антрацит-й3л Yugoslavia was no more sustainable than the pre-1918 Austrian Empire. Get real. Serbs committed genocide.

[@Антрацит-й3л]

@@afritimm sure. and for sure it's russians started to kill people of Donbass. and for sure the NATO and the US were saving "democracy and freedom" and bring peace and stability in Belgrad in 1999. congratulations. you won.

[@jaredwoodford8849]

Thanks, though I’m trying to now to follow The Eleven Satanic Rules of the Earth, again Thanks!

[@montopeloto]

Good job John, and good luck. You can't change people who don't want to change. I never heard from the western press, that this war would never have happened if Ukraine was kept neutral, and the minsk agreements were carried out, much less that the war would end today if that were done. The West never will admit its share of blame in this humanitarian disaster.

[@lawistruth]

Precisely, with all that propaganda spewed!

[@magnaviator]

I've stopped listening to the constant spew of lies from all western media. BBC, France24, DW, CNN, MSNBC etc etc...they think everyone's too stupid to know the truth, even when the precursor events to Ukraine war happened in the last decade. The west has become The Empire of Lies...

[@farzana6676]

Ukraine is an independent sovereign nation and will make its own decisions. Ukraine sought protection from the West because Russia kept stealing her land.

[@sahidsanusi2653]

not having countries such France and Germany to be signatory to such argreement may properly been better and keep the world safe. What was the purpose of having them been there and they are unable to stop this conflict.

[@jusmeetsingh1907]

Now,.. I think, Russia will not accept autonomy for Donbass..within Ukraine. That bus has left the station. Neither will Russia believe any agreement. Nor will a Ukranian sovereignty be in interest of East Ukrainians.. given the recent behavior of the Ukranian State

[@richardc9246]

To people like Carl Bildt who like to say “I was there”, “I met Putin”… I have but one question: What would they have done differently to prevent this war?

[@carljonsson9964]

A lot of people incl Bildt did what they could. But with Putin that doesn’t help. The only way to keep peace with Putin in power is to keep him weak.

[@mortimersmithsr2522]

@@carljonsson9964 5 months later. Putin is destroying the west, or should i say; The west is on a collective suicide mission to please a few rich men in Washington. And some of the sheep still cheer this on. Just mindblowing

[@ElToro74]

I guess this is the "would you have gone back in time and killed Hitler" question reiterated.

[@fernandochen7906]

I agree with Mearsheimer. Politicians like Carl Bildt is the reason why the world is in such a peril now.

[@SA-ff9uc]

Not Putin?

[@Cindy-up2oj]

I totally agree with you. Bildt is dealing with the issue on emotions.

[@adamkabir6685]

@@SA-ff9uc yes not putin.

[@beegee8900]

This guy Carl is an example of pure derangement syndrome. It was very hard to stay quiet, when despite of such a danger facing humanity this guy solution is to double down until Ukraine wins. He does not care what the win looks like, or what is the price to pay for this illusion. Does he realize that nuclear Armageddon when pursuing his victory illusion, delusion is the end of any life on the planet Earth. How can you be so deranged, so callous, so out of touch with reality??? Shame!!!

[@stella3265]

I agree 100% He’s a jingoists and a ultra Neo Liberal. Cares more about enriching the Trilateral countries then he does the East and the southern hemisphere. His politics are pure Neo Con his economics are pure Friedman and Rand.

[@24haikus]

Carl Bilt monologue : "Our task after the fall of the Soviet Union was to build peace and security and prosperity for every part of our continent." - When he came to power Putin asked to join NATO so to form a wide security structure encompassing all of Europe but was rebuffed. Bilt compares Putin to Hitler making an all out attack on Poland. - Putin made a very limited Special Military Operation with I30K troops for three objectives. These were to stop the 8 year western Ukrainian military agression on the Russian-speaking Donbass region, Purge Ukraine of organized Nazi elements that have played a crucial role in Ukraine's turn from Russia to the west as well as the martyrdom of the Russian-speaking regions. Guarantee Ukrainian neutrality so as to remove the NATO threat to Russia. This is in no way similar to Hitler's conquest of Poland. Bilt : The first similarity between the two dictators is their actions were taken with "no constraints". Putin limited the SPO for threes specific purposes as mentioned previously. Originally it was even designed to secure autonomy within the Ukraine state for the persecuted regions. Because of NATO intervention the SMO was unable to succeed as planned and in order to increase the size of the Russian force a mobilisation was needed. In order to mobilise within Russia, the Russian-speaking regions of Ukraine had to become part of Russia itself which they readily did through referendums. These referendums were actually real and uncoerced and available documentation contradicts the West's accusation that they were a "sham". Bilt : Just like Hitler and Poland, Putin wanted to "get rid of Ukraine". Putin from the beginning stated that Ukraine should remain intact. NATO massive intervention caused Russia to have to escalate that in turn required the four eastern regions to request integration into Russia. Bilt predicts that Putin will continue to escalate until Russia collapses. Therefore he intimates that NATO will feed Ukraine money and arms until Russia is exhausted and itself falls apart. He does not mention the possibility that the West exhaust itself and collapse first. Bilt : "Agression must never be tolerated, borders must be respected." Kosovo was carved out of Serbia by force of NATO bombing of military and civilian infrastructure. Then Bilt states that both Putin and Hitler claimed numerous intolerable injustices might be right or wrong. But that doesn't give them the right to use military force to right those wrongs. So according to him NATO didn't have the right to use military force to create Kosovo. Bilt : "True peace in Europe can't be restored until the Russian invasion is rolled back." This is not necessarily true as we will likely see in a few years time.

[@perhamnstrom7818]

Bildt doesn't care about facts. He is a propaganda machine for a liberal conservative political right and they find him quite useful.

[@sverigeidag7049]

Carl Bildt has never understood any important international issue correctly. A typical Swedish leader with very high thought on himself and a big dog´s attitude, but much limited knowledge.

[@simonyang5191]

No, these are not what Prof Mearsheimer's structural realism international relations theory suggests about this war. You are simply a Putin apologist, not wiser than Bildt, just stand on the other side.

[@galanis38]

@@simonyang5191 Anyone that doesn't agree with the West's actions regarding Ukraine and relations with Russia is a "Putin apologist." Default mode.

[@simonyang5191]

@@galanis38 Are you serious? Did I say that the West is doing the right thing? Go read the article that Mearsheimer write about the Ukrainian crisis and see what's the difference between a realist and Putin apologist yourself.

[@PhiloSurfer]

Carl Bildt "...... is on the Board of Trustees of the RAND Corporation in the US." - this says it all.

[@piretveski9399]

Money talks loudly ,so loudly....

[@KbB-kz9qp]

That means Bildt is connected with the military industrial complex. No doubt that association affects, or shades his views.

[@kamaikg]

I found Carl Bildt utterly rude and mannerless in addition to trying to manipulate the audience. He keeps interrupting professor during this debate. I guess he is just very insecure to let professor Mearsheimer talk. Such a hypocrite.

[@billhammett174]

The sponsoring organization should have stated that at the outset. All in all a very non professional effort...

[@oldi184]

Thank you. This really explains a lot.

[@ZereayM]

I’m deeply thankful for Prof Mearsheimer, his opponent is very unwell and it’s folks like him who continuously walk us into war while they hide safely far from the battlefield

[@ankalagon45]

you r russian bot. anyone who appreciates killer putin is lost cause

[@stuarthawkins4103]

The guy who was part of dismembering Yugoslavia in the 90s says NATO is no threat to Russia

[@alexanderpepkin4110]

They think naive idiots rule the worlds biggest country

[@tpeterson9140]

Whats bad about it? It ended years of war and conflict.

[@stuarthawkins4103]

@@tpeterson9140 conflict caused by NATO divide and conquer. Last I checked everywhere NATO goes war and conflict follow. Just look at Iraq, Syria, Libya, Afghanistan etc

[@MargaritaKatrenko]

@@tpeterson9140 So the same would apply to what's happening in Ukraine. It would end the killing of the Ukrainians in the Donbas. Over 14,000 lost their lives in the past 8 years. So you should support Russia.

[@aleonard8272]

Yugoslavia fell apart because of internal division, summering ethnic tensions, and because it was an empire that could no longer hold itself together. Sound ironically familiar?? 😂

[@brankajosilo-perry8889]

Bilt was the “peace negotiator” in Yugoslavia. It ended with Yugoslavia being dismembered because that was the end game, just as NATO plans for Russia. Madeleine Albright did say that it is so unfair that one country should have so many riches and not share them. Bikt

[@darthverminates9708]

I was feeling gaslight the whole time he tried to argue nato didn't want to expand to Ukraine...

[@rp3875]

Thanks for sharing I had no idea who Bilt was. I could just feel the slippery ness of the guy. He was equivocating, omitting pieces of information and was clearly trying to manipulate the audience. He was also assuming the audience was ill informed about the history and could be easily fooled. The red flags went up for me! One such example was his comment that Ukraine and other Eastern European nations wanted to be like Poland because they saw success. They were knocking at EU’s doors. On the surface, that’s perfectly reasonable. However, the omitted piece was that when Poland was being set up for success at the time of USSR collapse, Russia was refused help when it had financial troubles. The goal was to bankrupt them in the 1990s, so God forbid they became an example to follow. People like him are nefarious and liars. They mislead us by giving us half truths. They are on an anti Russia crusade for decades. That’s for reasons of power not for the good of the man on the street or democracy or human rights, like he so sanctimoniously claimed. They have been jeopardizing Russia by design for a long time and then claiming innocence. Who do they think they fooling? There is enough evidence that people like him have been doing that since the 1990s. Gaslighting sociopath. Unfortunately, most people are busy making a living and don’t have the time to examine and the mass media is just an extension of these power hungry people.

[@jeromefalasca5118]

He has been on the bord of directors for a Russian energy company and a few other dodgy oligarch like behaviour

[@dl3472]

@@rp3875 gaslighting psychopath? Are you Russian?

[@marianomarini775]

That saya It all

[@MrIzzyDizzy]

Mearsheimer's courage in the face of tidal waves of war propaganda is refreshing. Much respect.

[@jaredwoodford8849]

I’m trying to now follow The Eleven Satanic Rules of the Earth, " Thanks!"

[@MrIzzyDizzy]

@@jaredwoodford8849 is one of them trolling?

[@jaredwoodford8849]

Thanks, though I’m trying to now to follow The Eleven Satanic Rules of the Earth, again Thanks!

[@garad123456]

Funny how you say propaganda because you dont agree. Instead of pointing some things where the others are wrong and Mearsheimer is right.

[@jesan733]

@@garad123456 the ones praising mearsheimer are probably not real. It's part of the Russian propaganda model to do this praising because it makes the Russia friendly messege more believable.

[@kd6613]

🎯 Key Takeaways for quick navigation: 00:00 🌐 *The 2022 Holberg Debate discusses pressing global security issues, focusing on Ukraine, Russia, China, and the West.* 08:47 🌍 *The world is currently facing a dangerous security crisis, with a significant military conflict in Europe involving Russia's aggression against Ukraine.* 12:49 🇪🇺 *The conflict in Ukraine threatens the stability of Europe and the broader global order, emphasizing the need to address it.* 23:41 🌍 *Principles of non-aggression and respect for borders are crucial for European security, with the international community supporting Ukraine in upholding these principles.* 32:06 🌍 *The security of Ukraine is foundational for the stability of Europe, and addressing the Ukrainian conflict is essential for preventing future global disorder.* 33:31 🌐 *The world has transitioned from bipolarity to unipolarity and now to multi-polarity, increasing the potential for conflict among great powers.* 36:09 🇨🇳 *The U.S.-China competition is a major concern, with China aiming to become a regional hegemon in Asia and the U.S. striving to maintain its dominant position in the world.* 39:49 🌏 *The U.S. does not tolerate the rise of regional hegemons and is concerned about China's growing military power, especially in the context of Asia.* 40:15 🌐 *John Mearsheimer argues that the United States aims to weaken China to prevent it from dominating Asia and that this intense security competition is centered around Taiwan.* 44:15 🌎 *In the context of Ukraine, John Mearsheimer believes that the United States and Ukraine are pursuing a clear-cut victory, while Russia perceives Ukraine as an existential threat and wants to regain control of it.* 53:05 ☢️ *Mearsheimer highlights the risk of nuclear escalation if Russia faces a significant setback in Ukraine, as they may resort to using nuclear weapons to protect their interests.* 56:05 🌍 *Mearsheimer asserts that the world is becoming more dangerous due to the emergence of two potential great power conflicts, making the geopolitical landscape less predictable and more hazardous.* 01:08:03 🇷🇺 *Putin resurrected Russia's military capabilities during his tenure, but they weren't capable of launching military offensives in the 1990s.* 01:10:07 🇺🇦 *NATO's decision at the April 2008 Bucharest Summit to include Georgia and Ukraine in NATO contributed to conflicts in Georgia (August 2008) and Ukraine (starting February 22, 2014).* 01:14:00 🌍 *Putin perceives colored revolutions and democratic movements in former Soviet states as an existential threat to his regime.* 01:16:15 🤝 *NATO expressed its commitment to bringing Ukraine into NATO, trained Ukrainian troops, and considered Ukraine a de facto member.* 01:19:27 🇷🇺 *Russian elites were united in viewing Ukraine's NATO membership as an unacceptable red line.* 01:21:53 🇺🇦 *The Russian invasion of Ukraine fueled Ukrainian nationalism, but Putin may have anticipated this and still felt desperate enough to take action.* 01:25:08 🇺🇦 *Ukraine's neutrality was part of its constitution, and there were no significant NATO forces in the new member states before the 2014 Ukraine crisis.* 01:30:46 🤝 *NATO's commitment to bringing Ukraine into the alliance increased, despite the absence of physical NATO forces in Ukraine.* 01:33:21 🤝 *Negotiations for a peaceful resolution should primarily involve Ukraine and Russia; European nations support Ukraine's determination to protect its territory.* 01:34:14 🇺🇦 *Prospects for peace in the Ukraine-Russia conflict are currently bleak, and it may ultimately be decided on the battlefield.* 01:35:11 🇷🇺 *Countries closer to the Russian border have a different perspective on the threat posed by Russia compared to those further away. Historical animosities also play a role in these differences.* 01:36:31 🌍 *Putin's actions in Ukraine in 2022 challenged the post-World War II European institutions that aimed to prevent war in Europe and foster economic cooperation. These institutions failed to deter Putin from invading Ukraine.* 01:39:12 🇺🇸 *NATO and EU expansion in Eastern Europe were initially aimed at promoting peace and stability, not containing Russia. The view of Russia as a threat evolved after the crisis in Ukraine in 2014.* 01:44:41 ☢️ *There's a concern about the risk of nuclear war in the Ukraine-Russia conflict. However, some argue that giving in to nuclear blackmail is highly dangerous, and deterrence efforts are being made to prevent such an outcome.* 01:52:00 💥 *In desperate situations, states may pursue risky strategies, such as using nuclear weapons, even when they understand the consequences. The focus should be on preventing escalation to nuclear conflict.* 01:57:04 🇪🇺 *European nations are increasing their defense spending and cooperation in response to the evolving security situation, particularly with concerns about an unstable Russia in the future. The goal is to safeguard against an unpredictable regime with various instruments of power.* 01:59:04 🤔 *Differing viewpoints exist on how to prevent nuclear escalation in a crisis like the one in Ukraine in 2014. One approach is to back off to avoid provoking a conflict, while another perspective emphasizes the need to create deterrence to prevent escalation.* 01:59:46 🌍 *Mearsheimer suggests that if tensions between the West and Russia continue to escalate, it could lead to a nuclear war.* 02:00:13 🇺🇦 *Russia's demand in December 2021 that Ukraine not become a NATO member and military forces be withdrawn to 1997 positions created a critical situation.* 02:00:51 🔒 *Mearsheimer believes that backing off from the Ukraine situation is almost impossible at this point, while Bildt advocates for doubling down and imposing sanctions on Russia.* 02:02:36 🌐 *The participants discuss the challenges posed by the current geopolitical rivalry, particularly the dynamic between the U.S. and China, and the role of Europe in this context.* 02:03:59 🌊 *Climate change is identified as a significant issue, and cooperation among major powers is deemed essential to address it effectively.* 02:07:46 💼 *Tensions may arise between the U.S. and Europe regarding trade with China due to Europe's interest in trading extensively with China for economic growth.* 02:16:10 🌍 *The panel discusses the challenges of achieving international cooperation on issues like climate change and arms control, given the increasing intensity of security competition among great powers.* 02:24:25 🌍 *Global South countries, including Indonesia, Brazil, and Thailand, voted with the West on resolutions related to the war, but the effectiveness of their mediation efforts with Russia remains uncertain.* 02:25:17 🌎 *Western countries often view themselves as the "good guys" in the international system, but many countries outside the West don't share this perspective and see the U.S. as a ruthless great power.* 02:26:41 🌐 *The number of armed conflicts in the world has increased since 2018, posing challenges for international institutions, including the UN Security Council.* 02:27:48 🌟 *The effectiveness of the UN Security Council depends on the actions of its great power members, and coordination among these powers is becoming increasingly challenging.* 02:29:23 🇺🇦 *Securing Ukraine is crucial for European stability, and the conflict in Ukraine will have long-term consequences for the region.* 02:32:04 🌍 *Global institutions are ill-equipped to address growing global rivalries, and the world is facing significant challenges, including the pandemic, climate change, and migration pressures.* Made with HARPA AI

[@anthonygallegos2383]

"Pure fantasy" says Carl Bildt after John lays out clear, obvious evidence. Bildt then goes on to invent some fantastic history.

[@lucasmurphy740]

Frustrating to listen to someone outline such a clear and easy to understand argument just to be flippantly dismissed with bad faith arguments

[@Vajicgaja]

Carl entity is worthless. A two bit punk layer. Democracy, democracy...by bombing, by theft,by debt, by misleading people to "liberation" wars, by promoting "freedom fighters"... He is a priest of Death cult in their "garden".

[@ypka41]

@@lucasmurphy740 Haha that arguments you need man? From your TV that propagate truth of WEST? I think Carl speak only water, John speaks about pure facts. NATO and EU try to play bad game and propogate to their peoples "We are good and Russians are bad", but if you see pure facts NATO did military training on Ukraine against Russia in 2021. It's realy funny than someone underestimate that fact. If your neighbour trying to shoot your portrait around your door i think you will be scared about it and kick his ass before he go to kill you next day. NATO don't need took Russia oppinion about situations thay don't give a fuck about that, they are simply pursuing our economic and political interests.

[@cornflower1783]

A Swede with prejudice. I thought - the Swede thinks like a Baltic (Latvian, Lithuanian). Even without knowing history and politics, some Balts, and even Poles, are prejudiced against Russians and even have hostile ones. And I'm talking about relations among peoples, not politicians. It was Mearsheimer who voiced it - historically it happened that way.

[@gunnarMyTube]

Such rethoric is Bildt master arena. He did not raise to fame for nothing. On the Board of Trustees for RAND Corporation, influential U.S government policy think tank.

[@lauriealach1072]

Did you notice? Bildt needs to debate by reading dot points from a script, while Mearsheimer has all the facts in his head. Who is more believable?

[@santoscota6380]

Bildt

[@perhamnstrom7818]

Bildt doesn't know what he is talking about. He is a reader of a paper.That is all.

[@gandydancer9710]

@@santoscota6380 Bildt conflates justifications with realism, consistently ignoring Meirsheimer's points about the latter. Not a good look.

[@MultiAnonynous]

The one who has things written down is more believable. The other guy just takes lies out of his own head.

[@refuge42]

One this meeting was held in English it would be different if maybe it was held in Norwegian and Meersheimer was expected to speak Norwegian. Also Meersheimer has been pumping out these contrarian theories for decades he's known for it it's more like he's running it tape machine than actually having a debate.

[@Rwswal]

It's ridiculous to believe that securing defeat against Russia (which seems increasingly unlikely anyway) is going to be a successful way to end the conflict in Ukraine - it's ironic that the EU sanctions were agreed in Versailles which, of course, is the place where an agreement was secured that sowed the seeds for WW2 - didn't that location make anyone stop and think? Obviously not! The German philosopher, Georg Hegel, said, “The only thing that we learn from history is that we learn nothing from history.”

[@refuge42]

So no longer use Frances pride Versaillis Palace because 100 years ago the politicians made bad decisions?

[@Rwswal]

@@refuge42 No, I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying that it should concentrate the mind and force leaders who use it to remember and act upon the lessons of history 🙂

[@rp3875]

Well said

[@spbname8121]

Ah! yes. You are unfortunately 100% right. Man for the most part is a stupid animal who does not learn from his mistakes. Thu cunning who do know what is going on always react the same way - according to their interests.

[@farzana6676]

​​@@RwswalThe lessons that should be learned from history are that you never appease an aggressive dictator. Neville Chamberlain "peace for our time" shows us that appeasers are naive. Aggressive expansionists only understand the language of force.

[@peterjensen3076]

The moderator starts the debate by declaring that it is very clear who's the good and who's the bad. What a biased and disturbed fundament for a moderation. Absolutely incompetent.

[@goodenergy11]

Not unbiased. NATO treaty was breached and no accountability. It doesn't mean that if you have a PHD and an angry voice that you are right if you are not addressing the fact that NATO is breaching its agreement made when ending WWII.

[@deboraferreira7566]

Zelensky was elected with the promise to promote peace in Donbas. Ukranian people wanted to get along well, in peace, with their Russian brothers. Talking about Ukrania as a sovereign country today is at least academic desonesty, once Ukrania has been ruled by NATO since 2014. Mr Mearsheimer is brilliant.

[@xxvxxv5588]

Since when Ukrainians and Russians are "brothers". In Ukraine Russians have bad reputation because of their xenophobia and negative attitudes towards ethnic Ukrainians and Ukrainian state

[@MarioSaldanhaLobo]

@@xxvxxv5588, read USA reports on human rights about Ukraine.

[@bellakrinkle9381]

Mearsheimer is truly the one that understands the complexity of this crisis. It seems the others are too close to get a distant perspective. Frankly, I only see a broade

[@demirel8918]

However he cannot effect the “conventional wisdom” let alone change it. Narrative of the West piles up to form a belief.

[@xzox]

@@MarioSaldanhaLobo Fake news

[@nishmukerjee9664]

The problem with Carl Bilt and the rest of the EU leaders is that they are extremely myopic in their vision vis a vis Russia. Their hatred for Russia supersedes rationality and common sense.

[@marianomarini775]

They are no miopic he knows exactly what he IS doing he IS laying on porpuse he IS a board memner of the RAND corporation , nothing else needs to be said

[@stefanhetzel]

We don't want to live under Russian rule, that's all.

[@marianomarini775]

@@stefanhetzel ok so dont blame russia for keeping itself safe , you dont want to live under china rusia rule you dont want to be their slave so you prefer to live under eeuu rule and be its slave , ok but dont destroy ukraine in order to do so and blame rusia , you dont care about democracy or human rights , you only side with eeuu in its war against china and in order to do so eeuu is capable of anything , destroy europe or wathever so take the consecuences of your decision

[@stefanhetzel]

@@marianomarini775 I am living in the EU. We have democracy and human rights. Things that neither China nor Russia have. So what is your problem?

[@alexanderpepkin4110]

Do you have gas?

[@disturbedcarrot]

Listening to Carl Bildt, you can understand why we are where we are with EU policy. John is doing his best to explain it to him.

[@sinoafricansinoafrican9821]

Carl has a pation of his Europe n doesn't understand the world like mr. John.

[@tippchiam6822]

@@sinoafricansinoafrican9821 Agreed.

[@klauskinski5969]

i think john was very bad. he talked only about principle and some abstract terms, but never really talked about reality except the red line.

[@basilbadra7979]

@@klauskinski5969I tend to disagree with you. If anything, John, as he described himself, is a realist and hence he reflected the reality for which Carl kept ducking the points that John brought up. Carl proved time and time he is an extreme left neocon. The world is where it is now because of people like Carl and hold the same “values”.

[@listener523]

I would say the height of cluelessness was towards the end when the moderator brought up the UN security council. I doubt that even the UN takes the UN seriously.

[@Gerrit-s1v]

This is a really good debate, and the fact that it is being given time to develop is remarkable. As someone who is now following it, at the end of December 2023, I would like to see it unfold today. You could also call it an update. In other words, Ukraine is no longer in as good a position militarily as it was at the end of 2022, the initially exuberant support from the USA seems to be coming to an end, the EU is trying by all means to close the (financial) gap, etc.

[@bexhill8777]

the yucrain is but a pawn in the filth practiced by the west and its master in the near east.....

[@ptccpaul]

As a swede i feel ashamed. Bildt is a politician, and lacks all sense of realism. Having been around i surely recognize his love of being seen as a "top international" diplomat. Embarrassing, arrogant and truly dangerous, while Mearsheimer i believe has great clarity.

[@farzana6676]

As an American, I have to say Carl bildt carried himself very well. Very articulate and cogent arguments made by Bildt.

[@arijao92]

I know how you feel, here in Finland its the exact same thing, our politicians are childish and completely out of touch aswel, sometimes I feel as though I live in a completely parallel reality from them

[@toilarhd4581]

Attaboy. As a russian I can say you that we Successfully sh*t in your head

[@gunnarMyTube]

Had he been the PM now and talked like that we would find good motive to hide in bomb shelters already. Or rather emigrate to New Zealand.

[@nn0881]

Even more concerning is to know that all European and US leaders are the same minded. This arrogance will bring lots of trubbel for poor people :(

[@halfcolombian72]

Must be pretty frustrating for John. He probably can see through the BS of Carl but still he never cuts him off. He knows he's in a hostile environment.

[@szlevi]

@@julesMorcinek Yeah, she was rather nasty...

[@mensrea1251]

@@szlevi Not nasty, just clueless, uninformed and incompetent. But well-intentioned but incapable people do some of the worst damage anyway.

[@l3eatalphal3eatalpha]

It would never help his point of view to be outwardly confrontational or aggressive as it could easily be cast as a microcosm of a pro-Russian mindset with aggression and domination being the motivations.

[@magdalenaalgarin3218]

Yes John did handled himself well considering it was two against one....

[@elijohansen6651]

@@mensrea1251 More like overly opinionated, whilst simultaneously being under-informed.

[@EricVoegelin]

I love the moderator's response to a possible nuclear war: it will be disastrous for the struggle against climate change. She and Bildt really do inspire moral revulsion.

[@oddvardmyrnes9040]

100%

[@Rwswal]

Climate change would be irrelevant, wouldn't it?🤔

[@oddvardmyrnes9040]

@@Rwswal .. This is about MONEY! Do you live in LA - LA Land?

[@Rwswal]

@@oddvardmyrnes9040 Maybe I'm missing something, but your point and question seem to me to be entirely unrelated to what I said 😕

[@oddvardmyrnes9040]

@@Rwswal .. Yes, intentionally so. My point is that economic issues will always trumps environmental issues. Why do I say that? Let me explain. Politics is about money. Who controls them, & what they are used for. You see it very clearly when you understand the structure of things. And now, today as we speak, the world you know is about to change. As we face a gun pointed to our heads, we have to confront these forces. Stop them dead in their tracks. Please follow me a little longer, I ask you to consider what I write; The world is crashing, but it is not random. It is controlled. At the base of our society lies energy (oil & gas). It affects everything you surround yourself with. Clothes, food, transport etc. When the crash comes (it is starting in earnest now), oil prizes will normally drop due to decrease in demand. History tells us that. Make sense. Less activity, less need for oil. What will happen to oil companies when this happens? They will have to compete. The one that has the best & cheapest product will win. This is what the free market teaches us. Well, the US oil production is NOT the cheapest. The extraction method, fracking, is expensive and have a much higher COP than other methods. It is only oil-sand production & synthetic oil extraction from coal that are more expensive. The Russian & Saudi oil is far less expensive than the American oil. U.S. production need 60+ USD a barrel to be profitable. Below that, they lose money. Russia & SA are at the 10 - 20 USD a barrel range. This has been why the FEDS propped up the financial market to keep demand high. Now the market is crashing & BOOM, we crash. The massive American investment in the fossil fuel industry, must be protected. Europe has agreed to shut Russia off/or reduce volume, from the European oil & gas market, and as you can hear Senator Cruz say, Texas are ready to start producing for export. He yells 'kill the Nordstream pipeline and send weapons to the heroic Ukrainians.' Yeah.... But the Europeans will not pay top dollar for a product they can get reliably next door, to a much cheaper prize, one can argue. That is where the Ukrainian war comes in. Get everybody fired up, make binding rash decisions that shut Russia out of the world's monetary system (shut them down basically), inhibit & take over their lucrative oil & gas market, Europe, & inhibit their exports. Accomplish that & the American economy is saved. How will that save them? With one of the biggest oil producers out of the market, the oil supply will be constricted, thus securing a high base prize, whatever happens in the world economy. That saves the American energy sector. Then the crazy war machine will profit immensely off the world's increased tensions, and a prolonged insurrection war in Ukraine. NATO will buy guns like crazy. That saves the weapons industry, and thirdly it will weaken Russia, so Israel will get elbowroom & can finish off Syria & possibly Iran. Follow the Gaza situation right now. This is the grand plan of the crazy people in this administration, and the one before, and before that all the way back to Mr Bush Sr. In my mind, the U.S. wanted this war. In a crazy high risk geopolitical game, with underlying economic incentives, America has fueled this war. The reasons for wanting war is rooted in the coming world economic crash, as I described above. The FEDS have kept the market artificially alive with its Quantitative Easing policy and its participation in the Repo market. The war in Ukraine is provoked, and has as its goal, to shut Russia out of the European energy market. Here are the 4 reasons for this crazy scheme; 1. Keep oil supply low in the world, securing a high oil prize during coming crash. 2. Secure a new Cold War in Europe, with massive profits for the weapons industry. 3. Weaken Russia in Syria, creating elbowroom for Israel to finish off Assad & split Syria along ethnic lines. 4. Cease Russia's natural Resources. Easy to verify. Check the min oil prize U.S. & Russia need to be profitable. Check property market in China & in the U.S. Verify the state those markets are in right now. Check the finance Repo market. Check the U.S. ten year bond yield. Now that the war has happened, and Russia is cut out of the market, FEDS will stop QE & raise the interest rate. The planned gargantuan crash can start. But there is a problem. USA's energy needs must be met. And how do the US do that when they have stopped Russian imports? How can the refineries along the gulf cost get crude oil cheep enough now that you have kicked out Russian oil? Venezuela, is your answer. Google search for 'U.S. ties easing of Venezuela sanctions to direct oil supply' and you will see for yourself. But Venezuela wants to sell at market prize. One can argue. No they won't. The trick is that America has enforced sanctions on them, and Venezuela lack infrastructure to get production volume up. You get it? Yes sir. America moves in to modernize the oil production, and Maduro play ball. He has to. If not...you know the history as well as I do. From the security perspective, the notion of Russia being a 'offensive' nation is wrong. Their posture is defensive. Putin is characterized as unhinged, mad, delusional and so on. He is not. He is human, though, and he does mistakes. Putin did one thing wrong, he invaded Ukraine. He should not have done that at all. He should have waited until the world crashed (as it is doing right now), and then flood the market with cheep oil. That would have built Russia to en economic power, crushed the American oil industry, struck a blow to the U.S. financial system, and blown up the energy independence of the U.S. Instead, he went straight into the trap that was set for him with both feet. Look up NATO advisor Jaques Baud and read his story on how NATO trained the Ukrainian army. Go to OCE web page & you will find that Ukraine increased artillery fire 10-fold in Donbas, starting the 16th of February. Russia invaded the 24th. Read his story, and you will understand what game NATO played. Ukraine is important to Russia because Russia has no geographic barrier onto their land. It is impossible for Russia to defend its borders if the opposition is present along all their borders. That is why it is imperative, for their security, that parts of the borderline are free of opposition. Ukraine is therefor vital for them. Just as Caucasus is (Georgia). Even if Putin was president or not. Listen to Mr John Mearsheimers assessment of Russia strategic position in Europe. Go to 'Caspianreport' KZbin channel & see the video report 'Will Russia become a superpower?' This is two episodes and is an excellent introduction to the Geopolitics of Russia. Look up 'Extending Russia: Competing from Advantageous Ground' and read the cynical & Draconian recepy on how to destroy Russia. Not to mention the hypocrisy from the U.S. considering their own history. Cuba is a prime example. NATO has, in my mind, deliberately campaigned against Russia since the fall of the Soviet Union. The strategy now, during the crazy world economic situation, is to wage economic war on Russia, aimed at acquiring its assets. Some assets have been sold to China. They need the oil, but they pay between 30 - 50% less than the rich Europeans do. Russia will also suffer 'brain drain', so needed expertise to develop & maintain oil fields will suffer. Their output will decrease, and the U.S & China knows that. Ask yourself these questions: 1. Why did Ukraine NOT implement the Minsk agreement that they signed in 2015? 2. Then this; Why did NATO invite Ukraine & Georgia to seek Membership when there was never a chance for them to join? 3. And this; Why will Europe agree to shutting out Russia from the world's monetary system when it will only result in more chaos? What mental gymnastics do you need to embark on to remotely think that; 1. Georgia is part of Europe. 2. How can Ukraine, which has parts of their territory in dispute, and a state of war existed within their borders, enhance security in Europe, or in the North Atlantic area? Europe is directly responsible for the situation that now exist. They could have averted all this by studying history a little. Article 10 gives every country de facto VETO right for enlargement. Now we risk having a new Afghanistan in the middle of Europe. And the people that will die is the Ukrainians & the Russians. Europe will be more dependent on the U.S. than ever, while America is cashing in. It is all about money!

[@scottn1405]

Carl Bild couldnt have been more wrong. Mearsheimer is today spot on with his analysis and his predictions

[@Masterfuron]

I think he could have been more wrong. They agreed on real key points but did not when it came to "Why" the war started in Ukraine And "How" it will play out. One is a liberal optimistic One is an aggro realist. With 3 World Powers now, there's no room for a liberal voice, unfortunately. He never answered 100% if Europe would trade with China in the future with technology. It's scary to think about that

[@CarterM54]

@@Masterfuron There was an element missing regarding China. Yes, it looks like a "great power" with a massive economy. But that fails to take into account at least two facts - not opinions or issues of debate, but objective, verifiable facts: First, China's industrialization was only possible due to taking on massive amounts of debt and spending money they didn't have. It is a major factor in the debasement of their currency and is starting to unravel. Second is the complete demographic collapse of China. The birth rate is currently around 1.2 children per woman, far below the replacement rate of ~2.2 children. This collapse started decades ago, exacerbated by the disastrous 1-child policy. The work force is aging more rapidly than any other industrial economy and by 2030 population growth will be negative. They will not have enough young people to support both the aging population and continued economic growth.

[@Dcc-yk2lo]

Why did Putin lose the war then?

[@Masterfuron]

@CarterM54 If you also look into it, they are starting to sell a lot of their bonds also and keeping the money in their country, which may be a sign of isolation, which they've done before. As for China's pop, they have like 3-4x the number of people than the U.S. has currently. Population + Wealth. They have cutting-edge technology and the brains. As for their "debt," so is the U.S.; almost to the point where we might have to start printing money, and let's not talk about the stock of the dollar.. Now, with that debt, you take it and use it wisely. China may trade technology also, I know it sounds like Im contradicting my point of them isolating in the future, but it's all about timing at that point and being prepared. Make a lot of money, then cut completely off from everyone besides their allies.

[@Masterfuron]

@@Dcc-yk2lo Shhh, real men are talking.

[@jessiejb4684]

Everyone seems to forget Yugoslavia and kosovo, a war and border change by u.s. force, not to mention the Soviet unions borders were changed of course.

[@hatrick3117]

before US it was cool and dandy there right?

[@nkosipwl]

You forget the Serbian genoside on its neighboor

[@gandydancer9710]

@@nkosipwl He hasn't "forgotten" anything. Jessie's observation is the supposed principle of no border changes by force is bogus. You and HaTrick are providing justifications for ignoring the supposed principle. So thanks for proving his point.

[@nkosipwl]

@@gandydancer9710 you mean genoside is ok. Mr Mersheimer just like Putin get is wrong, they think russia is a great power. In realism ruSSia is not a power in degrad.

[@gandydancer9710]

@@nkosipwl "In realism ruSSia is not a power in degrad. What's "a power in degrad"? And... "ruSSia"? Gee, I think I see what you did there, but dumb as it is I think its cleverer than you are. No, I didn't say "genoside"(sic) "is ok". I said what I said. Ask someone smarter than you (i.e. anyone other than the brain-damaged likes of John Fetterman or Joe Biden) to explain it to you.

[@paisong]

What's fascinating is that Mearsheimer states the obvious and it's taken as a revelation;

[@pitsinokaki]

Exactly.

[@firasbouhamdan9917]

Yes, obvious russian propaganda :)

[@sturmx96]

@@firasbouhamdan9917 whether it's russian propaganda or not that led to the conflict breakout.

[@firasbouhamdan9917]

@@sturmx96 what did lead to the war breakout ?

[@sturmx96]

@@firasbouhamdan9917 Russia felt it was threatened and attacked preventively. Putin might be absolutely wrong but he stated it clear in 2021 that Ukraine's presence in Nato is the threat to the security of Russia. So you have to deal with the opinion of your neighbours and it was also Zelensky's fault that he kept pushing that narrative that Ukraine doesn't have to take into account the opinion of its bigger neighbour. Saying that Ukraine might acquire the nukes was the last drop for Putin's patience.

[@MariaMMCardoso]

Let's be very practical about this: agree or disagree with Prof Mearsheimer, if it happens, if it actually happens in the near future and Borrell's garden turns into a graveyard, people can't say nobody tried to warn them.

[@henrylicious]

Problem is Prof. Mearsheimer has an uncanny ability to have very accurate outcomes the past decade or so regarding this conflict.

[@botidobra6221]

"We don't know" is an unacceptable answer to the issue of nuclear escalation.

[@bat9056]

@@henrylicious Mearsheimer has been dead wrong wrt to Ukraine and has refused to acknowledge reality or the flaws in his claims

[@maamartrichi8398]

I think a reasonable human being don't care much about who's wrong and who's right all he wants is to end this very dangerous war that could turn to a nuclear war, and Prof Mearsheimer gave a possible solution while Carl beleives that Putin is the agressor and sees the solution through the war.

[@MariaMMCardoso]

@@maamartrichi8398 I agree. It's as if the house is on fire and everybody is trying to find out who did it, but nobody thinks about putting out the fire. Crazy...

[@nan3271]

Thank you, John. The voice of reason.

[@xbandosx1]

Carl was really breaking under pressure from John M. at 1:28:00 to 1:32:00. The mediator stopped the debate because of how uncomfortable and all red Carl was, so she stopped the discussion. The build up of arguments that Carl has NO answer to starts at around 1:13:00 and it builds and builds argument after argument up to when the mediator had to stop them because Carl was breaking under pressure. Just look at how his voice changes from 1:28:00 to 1:30:00. John made the following arguments that Carl had no answer to: 1. Carl says that Russian elites disagree with Putin. John M. provides evidence that it is not the case and that most Russian elites DO agree with Putin. Carl had no response to that and did not provide evidence. 2. Carl said that NATO expansion was off the table in 2008, John provided evidence that it was not the case because the US said in june 2021 that they want to incorporate Ukraine into NATO. Carl provided no evidence that opposed this, only empty words. Mediator asks J.M. a question so we don't get a response from Carl, again... ( because he has no evidence!). 3. At 1:30:00 Carl says again that Ukraine was not going to get into NATO because "we had no forces there" like incorporation into NATO "requires" forces in that country. This is not true. None of the countries that became a part of NATO from 1994 to 2020 had NATO forces in that country before becoming members so this is total nonsense. Carl was really breaking down at this point and I am really disappointed that the mediator cut the debate here. That was really unfortunate.

[@Odyssey-y3s]

Carl is just a piece of a Russophobia garbage

[@dhnguyen68]

The NATO membership is a decision of Ukrainian people will. It is no a call from any one but the Ukrainian vote.

[@dhnguyen68]

John has no thing to say about the Ukrainian people will to join the EU to be part of the democratic and free world. John shifts the debate toward NATO that is a military alliance and he didn’t see the threat for Putin’s autocratic regime that Ukraine country looks forward to a Western democratic regime instead under the Russian autocratic influence and dictatorship.

[@xbandosx1]

@@dhnguyen68 why does this matter? What matters is that they see that as a threat, be it militarily through NATO or by EU. The Russians made it clear that they didn't like it!

[@gandydancer9710]

@@dhnguyen68 The majority of the "Ukrainian" people in the Crimea and Donbas appear to want no such thing.

[@belconnen1]

Thank you Mr. Mearsheimer! Speaking without reading, meant something. When you speak the truth, you don't need someone carefully prepared a speech with finding a way to avoid the hard truth, and turning the attention on anything else but the real facts. Respect only work when its applied on both side. Applying one, and only one side to the whole world it's not representing democracy, it's nothing but bullying. Thank you, again for putting everything in realistic perspective. I hope people will understand the facts of ending the world we know with nuclear power, but if it come to that it will be well deserved, because of the ignorance of the people and mostly because of the arrogance of the people in power in the west, thinking: we own the world and we can do whatever we want. Also I want to say one last thing Ukrainian people are the closest relative or I should say brothers and sisters with Russians. How US managed to convince Urainans to go against Russians just like Croatian against Serbian, I will never know. US its the only country never stop fighting around the globe since the end of the second world war, that means something. Thank you, George Nikolovski ( I'm not Russian, by the way, I'm just giving the facts. )

[@rp3875]

It’s such a tragedy of errors. The leaders got too arrogant and Carl’s attitude here shows that. He is human and I don’t know what I would have done if I moved in those circles, but it’s a misfortune for all of us. The world is truly become very dangerous indeed because a small group became too insulated from reality

[@doh917]

Bullying is how the real world works. Any time you've been taught otherwise was someone convincing you not to bully so they have less competition in their quest for dominance. When you are strong in geopolitics you do what you want, when you're weak you suffer what you must. I didn't write the rules, it's just the law of nature. It doesn't make you feel good but nature is amoral. Good ppl die everyday, it's a tragedy of life

[@nkosipwl]

All the same excuse….. fact is RuSSia is neoimperial state

[@dominikpriscak157]

it is very easy in countries such as Croatia and UKRAINE, since it was in these two countries during World War II. wars bigger pigs than the Nazis from Germany = Ustasha headed by Pavelic in Croatia and OUN headed by Bander and Sukchevich in Ukraine....these elements and their followers survived and live in these countries to this day, they know it well in the west, that's why it is easy to choose these groups of people, who then, with the help of the Western-oriented media, will draw people to their side against the Serbs, Russians, etc... this is a proven model of the West for years

[@wolfbirk8295]

@@nkosipwl what for you is a fact, is fake news for others....

[@collinshardyproust]

For those who don’t want to waste their time , start watching from 32:46.

[@svetlana7904]

No I would not watch those disgusting faces

[@djagemenona.k.aagieh]

kkkk

[@NobuhikuObayashi]

Thank you Professor Mearsheimer! You’re brilliant and very patient

[@prakashmanandhar1811]

Prof Mearsheimer is very wise guy and all what he said are quite sensible and full of wisdom!

[@БогданБеркут]

no wisdom here

[@alexanderpepkin4110]

You must be writing from Ukraine?

[@konradschulz820]

​@@БогданБеркутimmense political and historical knowledge and the ability of empathy is wisdom. In John's case you could say it is truthfulness. No doubts about that.

[@БогданБеркут]

@@konradschulz820 immense political and historical knowledge for some reason failed to help him to recognise that question of Ukraine joining NATO is closed since 2008. Either he don't know basic facts of history of Ukrainian NATO relationship or he dishonest because it contradict his stupid narrative.

[@scania1982]

Yes, let the bully in the east with nuclear weapons set the rules. But please don't surrender in my name.

[@clayk2481]

I am so glad that I made it through the first half hour of this.

[@arosnett]

Yes, Carl was a pain to listen to...

[@NZIGNANTI]

Mr Sweden loves his master

[@annab8766]

Carl Bilt is destroyed Yugoslavia, he help Albanian to take Kosovo, now SUPPORT Ukraine's behaves in Dombad and not suport Russia to protect Russia population.

[@jesan733]

@@annab8766 Russia runs a brutal and illegal war, and it forcibly conscripts the poor males in the occupied territories and feed them as cannon fodder against prepared ukrainian positions. There is zero ambition from Russia to protect anyone.

[@chimpskij]

Good for you. I managed about 30 seconds of Bildt before hitting that fast forward. I just can't bear the predictable hypocrisy and selective memory.

[@ilhamconte5408]

As American i thank John for his knowledge and his clarity to explain the real essence of the conflict, hope the audience realizes that there's more than one side debate or to the story This Norwegian fool wants us to believe not seriously take the nuclear threat until we get blown up!

[@БогданБеркут]

Yes. The real essence of the conflict. a) Russia wants to secure itself and its borders, wants to keep NATO away from its borders. b) Russia NEVER wanted to take over all of Ukraine. How the hell can Russia achieve the goals in point "a" WITHOUT taking over all of Ukraine? How can the capture of Kherson help keep NATO further from the borders? Ask Finland what impression this ingenious step made on them.

[@dijo7086]

You're right about both of them. Especially about Norwegian fool.

[@conorrowlands5093]

He is Swedish, not Norwegian....

[@jk5042]

@@conorrowlands5093 He is still a "fool" in respect to how he perceives a nuclear threat

[@vachagan11]

Euro trash elitist naive moron

[@giacomolontra3707]

Why does the man on the right think that the soviets are idiots? He's like: yes we sold Ukraine Javelins but they stored were in the kitchen, not the living room. After 5 minutes of his demonstration that Putin is stupid, I was like "I would invade Ukraine". That is precisely the kind of attitude that leads to war.

[@DUCKSAREEVILLLLLLLL]

The Soviets are gone.

[@antoniopapadopoylos]

this criminal liar Carl Bildt "forgot" to say the anti-balistic missiles they put in Poland and Romania vs the Russians

[@jerekuusrainen6475]

Nice, a teacher in the middle, and the pupils around him (learning I hope).

[@ogawk]

hahaha this made my day! I cried laughing :)

[@Антрацит-й3л]

empty hopes. these kind of people are too selfish and arrogant.

[@jaredwoodford8849]

Thanks

[@Kri-Ma]

To hear their closing words, both from Carl Bildt (a true globalist) and from John Mearsheimer (a logic realist), was indeed very claryfying.

[@alexhelsingin8681]

Blint, a Globalist? You must be kidding, the biggest looser for this war is Europe. Blint's policy (People behind him I would say) simply destroy western Europe.

[@Kri-Ma]

@@alexhelsingin8681 Not sure what to answer you, don't know if you are talking about somebody else. I know for sure that Carl Bildt (a swede just like I am) is a globalist and has been for several decades. And if you listen to what he says he is convinced that "the american way" is the only way. And he doesn't seem to understand (or aknowledge, or even care) that European people are the slaves, the tool that will be sacrified in order to crash and rob Russia.

[@MrGregglesC]

And yet Carl had the better points, the world isn't black and white

[@Kri-Ma]

@@MrGregglesC The world is definitely not black and white, I can agree on that. People who think that CB has a point or two are probably trapped and lost in the twisted yarn of the globalists puppet strings.

[@MrGregglesC]

@@Kri-Ma No he seems to have a more realistic and grounded view. What do you disagree with him about? Mersheimer suggests Russia invaded to stop Ukraine joining NATO. There is no evidence and little indication for this.

[@DChungking]

Fun observation: NO word of mention of Ukraine’s destiny in Carl’s closing words. Tells you something.

[@Fistfury42]

Carl is a deep state puppet..

[@govindagovindaji4662]

He told it. He said he does not know, because no one does, how this war will end, but that Ukraine will need Europe's continued commitment toward repairing it and keeping it stable. He said it was the biggest country in Europe next to Russia and of course, that was all the more reason for the first observations.

[@k_alex]

Thank you for this excellent event. And thank you to professor John Mearsheimer, very educating.

[@ankalagon45]

leave your echo chamber. russia is done

[@donaldramsey1288]

The Swedish politician is stuck in the NATO propaganda bubble (which might just split up the EU in their blindness).

[@farzana6676]

It won't. Outside of Hungary, EU is completely united in opposing Russian aggression.

[@gunnarMyTube]

He is very aware and of course understands everything that happens. But it is his deliberate intention to shape a reality perception in the viewer that supports his desired outcome.

[@Cubertron]

@@farzana6676 I'm not so sure! If the EU's success was based on economic well-being, when there bad times come. Many countries within the EU will begin to focus on their own interests. Think about the latest developments between Germany and France. Add to that the dishonest behavior of the United States, which is luring away European resources (Inflation Reduction Act of 2022) and the unity of the EU does not seem so unshakable. Alsa, what will happen if Russia wins on the battlefield?

[@realnapster1522]

This winter will prove disastrous for EU unity. 😂

[@antoniopapadopoylos]

ΤΗΙS TOTAL IDIOT, CARL BILDT AND OTHER IDIOTS EXACTLY LIKE HIM IS THE ROOT REASON OF THE DEMISE OF SWEDEN, HE CONSIDERS THE "RUSSIANS" AS A THREAT FOR ...SWEDEN, AND NOT THE SYSTEMATIC ISLAMIZATION OF HIS ONCE UPON A TIME GREAT EX-NATION OF HIS? SWEDEN DURIND THE COLD WAR, FLOURISHED AND PROSPERED AS A N E U T R A L NATION UNTIL THIS CRIMINAL OR OTHERS LIKE HIM PUT IT IN... NATO, AND CAUSE AN EXISTENTIAL THREAT FOR THE SWEDES. SAME GOES ALSO FOR THE FINNS WHO ARE ALSO THE VICTIMS OF CRIMNAL POLITICIANS LIKE CARL BILDT. THESE CRIMINALS SHOULD GO DOWN IN HISTORY AS MOST DANGEROUS PSYCHOPATHS LEADING EUROPE AND EUROPEAN UNION INTO WORLD WAR III, THE ONLY ONE WHO SUCCEEDS UNDER HIS POLICIES IS THE MILITARY INDUSTRY OF HIS COUNTRY. THIS CRIMINAL IS ALSO RESPONSIBLE FOR THE USELESS MASSACRE OF OVER 1 MILLION UKRAINIANS SO FAR, DR MEARSHEIMER TRIES MANY TIMES TO ASK HIM VERY BASIC QUESTION BUT THIS PSYCHOPATH INCLUDING THIS MENTALLY SICK WOMAN FAILING TO REPLY. IT IS FUNNY THAT THIS "DEBATE" IS OVER A YEAR AGO SO EVERYBODY CAN SEE THAT ALL HIS "PREDCTIONS" OR ESTIMATIONS ABOUT THE RUSSIANS FAIL. SO TO SAY THE LEAST , HE IS A TOTAL FAILURE, BUT IN REALITY IS A WAR CRIIMINAL WHO DESTROYES THE EUROPEAN ECONOMIES, PEOPLES' LIVES AN D GLOBAL PEACE AND SECURITY, HIM ALONG WITH THE OTHER CRIMINAL AND MENTAL RETARD JENS STOLDERBEG SHOULD GO TO JAIL AS SOON AS POSSIBLE

[@ghandb]

My closing remark: Bildt throughout the debate has blamed Putin for this war and dismissed the threat of NATO and its expansion to Russian security interests. Here are some of the politicians, diplomats, statesmen, etcetera who disagree with his position dating back to the 90s that knew NATO expansion was a trigger for war because it posed a legitimate threat to Russia: 1. George Kennan, America's foreign policy strategist, the architect of the U.S. cold war strategy. As early as 1998 he warned that NATO expansion was a "tragic mistake" that ought to ultimately provoke a "bad reaction from Russia." 2. Henry Kissinger, in 2014. He warned that "to Russia, Ukraine can never be just a foreign country" and that the West therefore needs a policy that is aimed at "reconciliation". He was also adamant that "Ukraine should not join NATO." 3. John Mearsheimer, arguably the leading geopolitical scholar in the US today, in 2015: "The West is leading Ukraine down the primrose path and the end result is that Ukraine is going to get wrecked [...] What we're doing is in fact encouraging that outcome." 4. Jack F. Matlock Jr., US Ambassador to the Soviet Union from 1987-1991, warning in 1997 that NATO expansion was "the most profound strategic blunder, [encouraging] a chain of events that could produce the most serious security threat [...] since the Soviet Union collapsed." 5. Clinton's defense secretary William Perry explained, in his memoir, that to him NATO enlargement is the cause of "the rupture in relations with Russia" and that in 1996 he was so opposed to it that "in the strength of my conviction, I considered resigning." 6. Stephen Cohen, famed scholar of Russian studies, warned in 2014 that "if we move NATO forces toward Russia's borders [...] it's obviously going to militarize the situation [and] Russia will not back off, this is existential." 7. CIA director Bill Burns in 2008: "Ukrainian entry into NATO is the brightest of all redlines for [Russia]" and "I have yet to find anyone who views Ukraine in NATO as anything other than a direct challenge to Russian interests". (He was then Ambassador to Moscow in 2008 when he wrote this memo). He is now director of the CIA. 8. Russian-American journalist Vladimir Pozner, in 2018, stated that: NATO expansion in Ukraine is unacceptable to the Russian, that there has to be a compromise where "Ukraine, guaranteed, will not become a member of NATO." 9. Malcolm Fraser, 22nd prime minister of Australia, warned in 2014 that "the move east [by NATO is] provocative, unwise and a very clear signal to Russia". He adds that this leads to a "difficult and extraordinarily dangerous problem." 10. Former US defense secretary Bob Gates in his 2015 memoirs: "Moving so quickly [to expand NATO] was a mistake. [...] Trying to bring Georgia and Ukraine into NATO was truly overreaching [and] an especially monumental provocation." 11. Pat Buchanan, in his 1999 book A Republic, Not an Empire: "By moving NATO onto Russia's front porch, we have scheduled a twenty-first-century confrontation." 12. In 1997, a group of individuals including former Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara, Senators Daniel Patrick Moynehan, John Warner, Sam Nunn, Bill Bradley, Gary Hart, and former CIA Directors Admiral Stansfield Turner and Robert Gateswrote a letter to Bill Clinton warning the "US led effort to expand NATO is a policy error of historic proportions" and would "foster instability" in Europe. 13. Dmitriy Trenin, director of the Carnegie Moscow Center, a think tank and regional affiliate of the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, expressed in the London Times that “the most potentially destabilizing factor in US-Russian relations, given the level of emotion & neuralgia triggered by Ukraine's quest for NATO membership.” 14. Sir Roderic Lyne, former British ambassador to Russia, warned in 2021 that "[pushing] Ukraine into NATO [...] is stupid on every level." He adds "if you want to start a war with Russia, that's the best way of doing it." 15. Famous economist Jeffrey Sachs in the Financial Times Feb 2022 warned "NATO enlargement is utterly misguided and risky. True friends of Ukraine, and of global peace, should be calling for a US and NATO compromise with Russia." 16. Fiona Hill Senior Director for Europe and Russia of the National Security Council:"We warned [George Bush] that Mr. Putin would view steps to bring Ukraine and Georgia closer to NATO as a provocative move that would likely provoke pre-emptive Russian military action. But ultimately, our warnings weren’t heeded." The United States ignored the warnings, orchestrated the 2014 overthrow of the elected government of Ukraine, and now uses Ukraine as a proxy to fight Russia. Millions have lost their homes creating Europe's greatest refugee crises since WW2, the global economy is suffering hitting the working class and poor the hardest, hundreds of thousands have died and many more than that have been injured. Ukraine is well on its way to losing a generation of its men. It is all because of the United States century-long goal of destroying Russia, something it almost succeeded at under Yeltsin. Putin put a stop to it and the US can never forgive him. The US has propagandized European diplomats into believing Russia is the threat when in fact it is the US and NATO that destabilized Europe and bought this war on as the above comments prove.

[@matsemillian]

Nailed it. 🔥👌

[@Orson2u]

The claim that NATO was a “trigger” to Russia turns entirely on whether or not the reality on the ground was binary. A glance at history and diplomacy, however, shows us that the claim and the characterisation of the NATO expansion as binary is false. The process is lengthy and requires performance at each stage, such as constitutional changes, legal changes, and commensurate permissions at the executive and representative levels. Sometimes a plebiscite on the joining question is held. And the ultimate level of control requires collective assent of all members in order to accept a new NATO member. Thus, Mearsheimer is merely reifying the projection of Asiatic nationalism and concluding “See? You DID it!” Hence, the critical analogy is this. A neighbourhood psychotic engages in multiple thefts of his fellow neighbours. The police arrive and chief inspector (Mearsheimer) deduces that the psychotic is the victim here! “Just STOP your neighbourhood watch” program! Yeah. Sure. /sarc

[@matsemillian]

@@Orson2u Thanks, I’m now dumber from having read that.

[@gretathunberg2080]

NICE! Greta Thunberg like it!

[@60-second-HACKS]

And let's not forget that the NATO threat is explicit. The American strategy is explicit. There's no doubt ir guesswork in it ... from their own mouths. The West keeps assuming that it is an irrational Russian fear.

[@andrewcoopercooper1732]

Bilt sits on the Board of Trustees of the Rand Corporation in the USA and begins at 16 minutes. John Mearsheimer begins at 32 minutes and worth your attention.

[@mensrea1251]

Thanks for that info. Really important context since the Rand Corporation hasn't seen a war it doesn't like.

[@xbandosx1]

Carl was really breaking under pressure from John M. at 1:28:00 to 1:32:00. The mediator stopped the debate because of how uncomfortable and all red Carl was, so she stopped the discussion. The build up of arguments that Carl has NO answer to starts at around 1:13:00 and it builds and builds argument after argument up to when the mediator had to stop them because Carl was breaking under pressure. Just look at how his voice changes from 1:28:00 to 1:30:00. John made the following arguments that Carl had no answer to: 1. Carl says that Russian elites disagree with Putin. John M. provides evidence that it is not the case and that most Russian elites DO agree with Putin. Carl had no response to that and did not provide evidence. 2. Carl said that NATO expansion was off the table in 2008, John provided evidence that it was not the case because the US said in june 2021 that they want to incorporate Ukraine into NATO. Carl provided no evidence that opposed this, only empty words. Mediator asks J.M. a question so we don't get a response from Carl, again... ( because he has no evidence!). 3. At 1:30:00 Carl says again that Ukraine was not going to get into NATO because "we had no forces there" like incorporation into NATO "requires" forces in that country. This is not true. None of the countries that became a part of NATO from 1994 to 2020 had NATO forces in that country before becoming members so this is total nonsense. Carl was really breaking down at this point and I am really disappointed that the mediator cut the debate here. That was really unfortunate.

[@calengr1]

@@xbandosx1 Thanks for time stamps with analysis

[@KevinUchihaOG]

@@xbandosx1 i think you are reading into his emotions the way you want to. You are seeing things. Im not feeling that at all from Carl

[@rcsverige]

I literally couldnt listen to him anymore and had to fast forward to Mearsheimer. Its so frustrating the levels they will go to to distort reality.

[@ambition112]

0:11: ⚖ The Holberg Debate of 2022 focuses on the current global security crisis and the power of deterrence. 38:05: 🌍 The US and China are engaged in an intense security competition in East Asia, with Taiwan as a major point of tension. In Europe, the US and Russia are the key players in the conflict in Ukraine. 48:59: 🌍 The geopolitical crisis in Ukraine and Russia poses a significant threat to global security. 1:01:15: 🌍 The West pushed for NATO expansion and EU membership, while Ukraine wanted closer ties with the West for security and prosperity. 1:12:30: 📰 The Russian invasion of Ukraine has fueled Ukrainian nationalism and brought the Ukrainian people together, but Putin's attack on Ukraine was an act of desperation due to a perceived security threat. 1:24:54: 🌍 The escalation of means and goals in historical wars is compared to the current situation in Ukraine, where there has been significant escalation in terms of means and Russian goals. 1:35:45: 💣 The speaker believes that Putin's actions in Ukraine have caused immense damage to Russia and that he may resort to using nuclear weapons in a desperate situation. 1:46:04: 🔒 The discussion revolves around the risks and consequences of nuclear war in relation to the conflict in Ukraine and the actions of Russia. 1:57:11: 🌍 The discussion focuses on the potential outcomes and implications of the ongoing war in Ukraine, including the role of Russia, the US, and Europe in the geopolitical landscape. 2:08:20: 🌍 Europe is more ready than the US to deal with integrated deterrence and hybrid threats, but tensions in trade relations with China and Russia pose challenges. 2:19:31: 😕 The structure of the international system is changing to multi-polarity, making cooperation on climate, arms control, and copyright issues challenging. 2:32:27: 😔 The world is heading for troublesome waters with growing global rivalry and inadequate global institutions to address major challenges. 2:40:14: 🌍 The speakers suggest backing off with the Russians and working out a deal with China to benefit all parties. Recap by Tammy AI

[@danieldavidisson9906]

Tammy AI did a top job. The speaker understands shit. Its all or nothing as far as the USA is concerned.

[@tommyfrayersvk7775]

John is always pleasure to hear. Good arguments presented with passion and sense. Bildt with his vague opening speech is typical (this is how things should be, instead of this is how things are) euro-bureaucrat living in lalaland. Switch him with any top EU representative/politician and you get the same delusional result.

[@andrewareva4605]

Except you realize that the European leaders, the EU members, the NATO leaders, and a lot of Biden's office is all like this. In Washington, both parties form a uniparty called the blob that also is part of the politician, university professor, think tank member and defense contractor who thinks the same thing. Did you see the John Stewart interview with Hillary Clinton and Condy Rice who were both still saying that the Iraq invasion and the Libyan invasion was a good thing?

[@markuspfeifer8473]

Given that people like Mearsheimer once upon a time were the hawkish end of the spectrum, it’s just nuts that we have become so warlike that these people appear as the reasonable ones.

[@David-mr2ql]

Can you please refute what Bildt is saying? Seriously every comments here are coziing up to Mearschimer but doesnt bring any actual substance to crtiticism of Bildt other than simpleminded insults

[@scania1982]

I am very impressed by Bildt. He seems willing to accept the risk of nuclear war to stand up against the bully in the east. I am not a strong person but that is my humble opinion too.

[@tommyfrayersvk7775]

@@andrewareva4605 I agree with you with the Washington blob. Still, I would like to see rep. US president today, rather than quite literally demented Biden and his administration. In institution like NATO, USA is a hegemon. So even if there's resentment, EU counties will comply, get in the line or turn the blind eye towards US war politics. In the Ukraine situation, elites are on the same page, although here in central Europe disgust among common people with EU and it's self-inflicted harm from sanctions and anti-NATO sentiment is strong. I didn't see that inteview, Jon Stewart is woke idiot. But I'll look it up.

[@unac4073]

And was it OK for the US to invade Iraq, Afghanistan, Granada, or its 65 foreign military aggressions since WWII? This war was started not by Russia but by the US/NATO years of aggression against Russia including the 2014 coup and the thousands killed by the US training, armed and built Ukraine military against the independent areas of Donbass.

[@scania1982]

Noriega in Grenada has been described as a fascist by Victor D. Hanson. The taliban is a very islamistic Pakistani group which wants to colonize Afghanistan. If a region wants to ceed from Ukraine I will have no sympathy if it declares itself a people's republic, which is the same as a one-party state at best.

[@farzana6676]

Not coup but popular revolution. In democracy if you lie to the people with fake promises, they will kick you out

[@unac4073]

@@scania1982 Sorry, Noriega is from Panama not Granada

[@scania1982]

@@unac4073 my bad, in that casw

[@wyz9815]

So true👏👏👏

[@sovietwarmachine1979]

I love it how everyone forgets the military exercises NATO did in May 2021 alongside Ukraine in the Black Sea. All months before Russia ever brought any troops.

[@dixonpinfold2582]

Not so. Russia's massing of troops and equipment near the Ukraine border began in March 2021.

[@neptunefog6082]

@@dixonpinfold2582 false

[@calengr1]

Thanks for time stamps with analysis

[@conorrowlands5093]

@@neptunefog6082 It is indeed true. Putin was likely considering back then to invade Ukraine. He published his essay that Ukraine wasn't a real country in July that year and made it mandatory for military personal to read it.

[@nemiw4429]

@@dixonpinfold2582 they can mass troops inside their border whenever they want. Why dont we talkn about 57779245 US military bases arround the world?

[@marek-kulczycki-8286]

1:16 "... we were training 10k Ukrainian troops / year since 2014". Exactly. So the strong cooperation between NATO and Ukrainian army was a reaction for Russian aggression, not vice versa. "Existential threat" - everything boils down to the definitions and comprehensive understanding. Ties of Ukraine with EU and NATO are existential threats to Russia, but not in a sense that Ukraine would attack and occupy it. It is a threat to what Russia is now: totalitarian, fascist regime, because if common Russians would see that Ukrainians - so akin, so close to them - can get rid of post-soviet system, noting would stop them from following.

[@bbbart77]

Like most western politicians Bilt has been given his CIA talking points and he didn't go from off script and the moderator didn't seem to be very neutral also. Well done John, Europe will fight to the last Ukrainian. I see Victoria Nuland returned to the scene of the 2014 crime, I'm sure she had a lot of wise words for Zelensky.

[@Cubertron]

I can't understand why there are so few politicians in Europe who primarily care about their country. Even Putin, despite his corruption, clearly thinks most of all about the long-term prosperity of Russia. But Bult seems to be a traitor to his people!

[@gerrardstones4246]

Very true.

[@andyhuang5628]

And one great hypothesis: the Europe is feeding the Dying Empire of Lies for its survival… Europe is the sacrificial lamb. The LNG export to Europe from the US. Relocation of industry from Europe to the USA due high energy costs while the US provides generous incentives / subsidy as of JAN 2023. The US wanna reindustrialize… the Europe will be deindustrialized due to migrations. Dying Empire cannibalizes its own allies to strengthen its own self!

[@erikgraskagg9234]

Bildts whole political philosofy is to allign himself with the US and NATO uncritically. He is not capable of an independent thought whatsoever. This is why this was not an interesting debate.

[@juzi68]

Bildt is an honest and well meaning human being who also happens to be slightly dumb. He's a product of a bureaucratic hierarchy that promotes mediocrity. Like a character out of the 1979 movie "Being There". A moralist whos wrong headed policies start WW3 in Europe.

[@boblynn1926]

thank you professor. well done. you ate his lunch.

[@sounzmega3544]

Professor John J Mearsheimer…a brilliant mind!!

[@mortanafidler]

As a Russian, I’m deeply impressed by his accurate analysis.

[@jaredwoodford8849]

I’m trying to now follow The Eleven Satanic Rules of the Earth, " Thanks!"

[@jaredwoodford8849]

@@mortanafidler I’m trying to now follow The Eleven Satanic Rules of the Earth, " Thanks!"

[@jaredwoodford8849]

Thanks though I’m trying to now to follow The Eleven Satanic Rules of the Earth, again Thanks!

[@CulturedThugPoster]

More than a mind .. he is a fantastic dancer look at his footwork up on the stage. Pay attention to the manner a man delivers his rhetoric a make sure you are not hypnotized by the show. That said his argument is sound but this is an explication and not a road map showing the way out of our current predicament. A justification for US foreign policy.

[@desoliver9712]

I think the latter part of this conversation highlights a problem with geopolitics generally. It's true, we in the West automatically think of ourselves as the good guys. Whilst Russia's assault on Ukraine indeed is morally and ethically to be condemned the fact is, if China or some other such superpower were to join in an equivalent Nato alliance with Mexico along the U.S border, the U.S and the rest of Europe would have a major issue with it... I think the panel members are a little to dismissive of this. Correction... this exact scenario is discussed at the end of the debate.

[@m.jahangirabid4132]

Bildt is so evidently disrespectful, arrogant and dishonest under this debate. Mearsheimer is balanced and present his arguments with clear logic and facts without any bias. Kudos to Mearsheimer who kept his demeanour well againt this war mongering provocative propagandist.

[@ogawk]

he makes unnecessary sarcastic remarks like "they waved the EU and not USA flag", "unlike your geography that moves...".... he uses these since I think he has no other sound evidence to say the least.

[@oldi184]

Well...just look at them. One has the Ukrainian flag on his suit the other doesn't.

[@jesan733]

Bildt is clearly honest and it's really doubtful Mearsheimer is honest. Some of his ways to align with the Russian perspective is too naive to be plausible. Also, the supporter of war is clearly Mearsheimer. He wants to reward Putin's illegal war and thus complete his effort to shatter the post-WW2 rules-based world order that has prevented new world wars and kept the world relatively peaceful.

[@jesan733]

@@oldi184 very true, that's a big plus for Bildt.

[@oldi184]

@@jesan733 But this discredits him as a neutral speaker. He is biased.

[@infernoboi92]

John: Facts & Logic Carl: Russia lost Carl: Did i mention Russia will lose in 2 weeks Also Carl: Putin don't wear underwear

[@artdeco3217]

RIGHT,AND YOU MUST BE A IMPOTENT ,AND AN ENVOUS MAN ,UNLESS LIKE PELOSI HUSBAND ,YOU PREFER GAY MEN ,IN YOUR UNDERWEAR ..PUTIN IS A MAN ,A WISE AND HONORABLE MAN ..WHICH GOES AGAINST THE EU.PRINCIPALS,OF CORRUPTION ,FROM ALL THESE UNELECTED,OVERPAID CONMEN,NO ONE ELECTED FOR ..

[@49metal]

John says the Russians went there on some good will cultural exchange. Capture Ukraine? Impossible, the Red Army is too pathetic! Capture Kiev? Impossible, the Red Army is too weak! Like the Chinese balloon, they got lost and let out for home as soon as they realized it, it's just taking longer than expected.

[@johnhume4346]

“Certainly, it would be a global disaster for humanity; a disaster for the entire world,” Putin said, commenting on the nuclear doctrine, “as a citizen of Russia and the head of the Russian state I must ask myself: Why would we want a world without Russia?”

[@haroldbridges515]

Do you imagine that there is a single American leader who does believe equally about the US?

[@johnhume4346]

@@haroldbridges515 that doesn't give America any authority over anyone else on this planet we call home.

[@robotello]

And was always the other way around. But media belongs to the west and will twist everything around so west will look pure

[@farzana6676]

​@@johnhume4346 Neither does it give Putin authority over Ukraine.

[@johnhume4346]

@@farzana6676Its complicated but if the United States hadn't pushed for Ukraine to become a member of nato Putin would not have invaded Ukraine. Nato & The United States have been arming and training Ukraine for this conflict for a long time.

[@vshnrs]

John, thank you for the science and not a "rose ponies" show. Respect for your job.

[@marknichols1]

No NATO troops in Ukraine, research Operation Orbital UK Forces, you will find that on Forces News and you tube and MOD NEWS, the British since 2015 have been training UKRAINE army in Ukraine and arming them ( don't think t was Boy Scout weekends) we have trained over 27,000 troops and paid for uniforms, tanks everything. And American forces at the same training timescale. Great to see NATO training non NATO troops since 2015. Truth is everywhere nice to see John hold is own what a setup those others had.

[@ggir9979]

Still no NATO troops fighting in Ukraine, what's your point?

[@farzana6676]

What a fool you are. How many NATO battalions were in Ukraine since 2015? Not even 1 battalion. Only handful of trainers. Which NATO weapons are given since 2015? I don't see any Abrams or Leopard tanks. I don't see F16s flying in Ukrainian sky at the beginning of the war? Basically you just enjoy talking BS.

[@vincentfong4949]

Carl presents propaganda while John presents facts

[@wyz9815]

Well said

[@ormadf1]

2:39:26 Cuban missile crisis: Dr. Mearsheimer starts the story that way: "When Russians put missiles in Cuba ..." That is wrong. It was Russia's response to the missiles deployed by the US in Turkey.

[@VENOM11011]

He repeated it so many times there was no point mentioning it there, as John was aiming to give an example great power’s reaction at military build up close to it’s border

[@Khaled-io9bz]

He wasn't forgetful nor did he deny that, it was just irrelevant to the point he's making.

[@ormadf1]

@@Khaled-io9bz it is a standard way to talk about the Cuban crisis among us authors to make the following implicit statements: it was the USSR's act of aggression. 2 the US bravely won the confrontation. both statements are wrong. The US had 10:1 superiority in nuclear warheads but decided to avoid the atomic conflict. Secondly, the US asked the Soviets to keep the agreement secret (withdrawing the US missiles from Turkey).

[@johnnotrealname8168]

It was not Russia's @#£%ing response to useless dud missiles that were going to be withdrawn anyway. It was aggression from the Soviets.

[@johnnotrealname8168]

@@ormadf1 Both are correct. That the power with an advantage did not seek to start blowing @#£% up is restraint that justifies Kennedy in the White House.

[@conniptions1533]

I’m sure the guy with a Ukraine flag tie and Ukraine flag pin will give us an objective view on Ukraine

[@UK100Adam]

No wonder Europe is going down the pan with guys like Karl having such a high profile.

[@nahumhabte6210]

Dont underestimate the swedish elites stupidity

[@scania1982]

Yes, please let the bully in the east invade as he sees fit.

[@henrylicious]

@@scania1982 Then we shouldn't have antagonize the bully.

[@andyhuang5628]

One possibility is the West totally miscalculated Russia believing it is too weak to carry out the real action against Ukraine, either militarily and or economically. US NATO EU believe the troves of sanction packages will collapse or destabilize Russia thus effecting the regime change in Moscow! It's still their belief until today!

[@scania1982]

@@henrylicious It is OK not to be strong but even I do not have your level of defeatism.

[@albertdittel8898]

This was an excellent discussion! I am a native Russian speaker, have been paying attention to this conflict for years and am quite well informed and this is a very rare occasion, where two experts have radically opposing views and I cannot help, but see very good and truthfull arguments from both. That's the kind of discussions we need! This makes one earnestly think and this is actual public political education! (in contrast to what mainstream and internet media usually feed us)

[@jenniraisovna5698]

There are plenty of these debates if you keep digging. Glad you found this discussion useful🙏🏻

[@troybailey9666]

As far as I can tell in the first bit by Bildt, Bildt doesn't have ANY truthful points at all.

[@jesan733]

@@troybailey9666 so you're a victim of the Russian "firehose of falsehood" propaganda model. Ok, thanks for informing us.

[@troybailey9666]

@@jesan733 so you're a victim of the AMERICAN "firehose of falsehood" propaganda model. Ok, thanks for informing us.

[@Антрацит-й3л]

"truthful arguments from both"? 😂 you should be living in the world of the pink unicorns. и хорошо, что ты ничем не можешь помочь. упаси нас бог от таких, понимающих всех и вся, и принимающих любые точки зрения.

[@ludan8984]

It’s a 2 vs 1 debate. The host joined the debate with Carl against John…😂

[@tagsoneveryting]

And they still lost on merit. John's arguments are more factual and reasonable.

[@jefbezoss7638]

Disappointed that a former premier of sweden resorts to ridiculous Hitler & Poland cliches on Putin. The US has completely broken the European economies and made us fully dependent on the them whilst increasing defence spending by trillions $.

[@VoloBonja]

@@tagsoneveryting mearsheimer is putins bitch. Those simple and smart explanations are just propaganda

[@pplr1]

John Mearsheimer claimed in a past lecture that Russia wouldn't attack Ukraine-that didn't age well. Mearsheimer's claim on some history is also wrong. 1 of the early enforcers of the Monroe Doctrine was not the USA but the British Navy. And he also may have screwed up the history of the Cuban Missile Crisis again. In the prior lecture he claimed it was over a Soviet base in Cuba. This is wrong. The crisis was over missiles and was resolved with removing them from both Turkey and Cuba.

[@vikramnandakumaran2434]

@@pplr1 your facts are incorrect

[@type1krush205]

I've watched this over and over again......Mearsheimer exudes clarity with every aspect of his adjective descriptions/answers 👌 I mean John's been set up like a meat sandwich but he's humiliated both of them by the end of the debate 😂 What a Cat J Mearsheimer is......Guys got a Sharp Brain 🧠

[@andrutimis449]

Excellent prof Mearsheimer!

[@siamcharm7904]

the one flaw in john's discussion about china is that he may be over projecting western values on to a very different society. china wants to be an important trading parter with all of asia but there is no evidence it wants to dominate other asian countries militarily. its recent build up appears very defensive as the usa, a very belligerant power has it surrounded with missles. this fear of the usa is causing most of the disturbances in the south china sea and the building of tose atoll bases.

[@trandung2242]

can't blame him on that. His theory of offensive realism puts domestic politics and cultural values aside. To him, China is just a great power and it will most likely try to dominate the region economically and militarily.

[@droblit]

wrong. China has territorial disputes with many neighbouring countries which it seeks to solve to its benefit. Some of them might only be solved militarily.

[@tonybooth4]

@@droblit yes agree the so called 9 dash line was the creation of a KMT geographer but is a dubious claim

[@andrewareva4605]

I don't think you understand John's theory of offensive realism. He doesn't care about what country is ethical or moral as that is subjective. The idea is great power politics and that every country wants to be more powerful and use its power to exercise its will. China could be a democratic utopia, but America would still be threatened by it as it has the potential to be more powerful than the US so the US will do everything to keep China's military and economy smaller.

[@rp3875]

@@andrewareva4605 You are spot on! He is just trying to describe the phenomenon not add value judgements to it

[@jlk8549]

This was a debate between a great scholar and a politician. The level of debate is at different levels. Politicians can't handle such high level of debate.

[@Will-xk4nm]

So you agree that Russia can invade any nation they wish and the rest of the world should just allow them to kill?

[@bat9056]

Its one thing to be wrong, its another to be as wrong and arrogant as Mearsheimer is

[@DonReyes-hj1xg]

Mearsheimer is a scholar and analyst whereas Bild is a swamp creature justifiying the MMIC and globalist agenda. His tirade is old and thread barren.

[@HolyArmor]

​@bat9056 your a child. Go to bed

[@GiambattistaRossi]

@@bat9056 and being ignorant as you are

[@stephanmbenti2855]

What I get from this debate is, who is Russia to stop us on our plans and ambition we are the west and will do what we want and don’t worry about Russia or anyone else’s concerns.

[@bat9056]

I mean Russia is the one literally invading a country because it doesn't like it not being a puppet, so I think you have that backwards

[@ironchancellor8231]

Well done Dr. Mearsheimer, well done!!

[@jaredwoodford8849]

Thanks though I’m trying to now to follow The Eleven Satanic Rules of the Earth, again Thanks!

[@lealyan]

👍

[@seanquinn4707]

John Mearsheimer is the king on these topics; I fully agree with him. At least someone tried to debate him on this.

[@clueseeker2226]

For me a major concern is the fact that for more than eight years Kiev forces have been shelling and killing civilians in Donetsk City. (For evidence, see videos uploaded to KZbin by Patrick Lancaster, Eva Bartlett, Graham Phillips, and others.) Mainstream Western media and politicians have been ignoring these attacks, but UN refugee statistics show that to avoid death and injury more than two million people fled to Russia. For most of these years, Russia refrained from intervening so as to allow peace talks to have a chance of success. If the US and its allies cared about human lives, they could have pressured Kiev to stop these attacks. But they not only failed to do that, but emboldened Kiev to continue attacks by giving it weapons. In this situation the victims in Eastern Ukraine had a natural right to ask for protection from Russia and Russia had a natural right to intervene to provide protection. With respect to international law Russia's intervention in Ukraine to protect separatists in Donbas is surely as legal as NATO's intervention in Serbia to protect separatists in Kosovo. NATO actually bombed Serbia into submission. In view of the above, there is no moral or legal justification for the US and its allies to continue providing weapons to Ukraine. Doing so is escalating the conflict and causing greater destruction, suffering and death.

[@drholmes1003]

I had the exact same arc through 2022. Had no idea what was going on there until it all exploded

[@49metal]

One word: GROZNY. Should there have been an invasion to protect Grozny from Russian shelling? Would you have opposed a Turkish invasion to protect Grozny? I'm sure you would. If Russia has a right to not be invaded, then so does Ukraine. You are right on Serbia, of course. The invasion of Serbia and the occupation of Kosovo were completely illegal. That said, does Russia believe a sovereign state has a right to not be invaded? If so, then it's the same for Ukraine.

[@49metal]

@AlexD Since when is sharing a common border is a warrant to invade your neighbors? If Moscow allowed Chechnya a plebiscite and the population voted to leave Russia's tender embrace, would Putin allow them independence? Obviously not. If Russia is worried about her nationals living abroad she should BRING THEM HOME, where they will be safe. That said, should we expect Russia to invade Estonia next? Common borders, was part of the Russian Empire, 25% discriminated Russian ethnics. Where have I heard this before. Oh yeah, ADOLF HITLER invaded Western Poland (German until 1918, made independent in a terrible mistake) to save the German minority there from Polish atrocities. Putin and Hitler are twins on this point. Granted, Hitler and Stalin agreed to a joint invasion of Poland and Stalin got to keep his half. But Hitler lost when the international community said enough is enough and said he can't keep Western Poland. Hitler's military was competent and well maintained and the fight took years. Putin is much worse off as the corruption of his regime gutted the effectiveness of his military. So he constantly threatens using nuclear weapons because that's the kind of cheap thug he is. Any time Putin wants peace he can pull the Russian Army out of Ukraine and tell the Russian insurgents to lay down their arms. If he wants UN peacekeepers to ensure the fair treatment of Russian Ethnics living in Ukraine, it will be done. But he won't do that. Like Hitler he can't admit when he's wrong and can't admit that he's going to lose. What a tragedy for the little people in Russia and Ukraine. They are paying the price for Putin's folly just as the people of Europe did for Hitler's folly three generations ago.

[@Qiushishuo]

Fully agree

[@yuliac3980]

@@49metal Chechnya is part of Russia and this has nothing with chechens trying to be a different state. This is something to with Islamic terrorist organization supported by US as well at that time. Ukraine had of 8 years of peace talks but was forced to continue conflict.

[@ДмитарРуђић]

I'm not a native Russian speaker, but I've been learning it since I was 10 (soon to be a 20 year period of time). I got to the point where Russians themselves cannot recognize that I am not a native speaker, at least in the first hour of intensive conversation. In addition, I got to know Russian history, art, literature, etc for all thes years. I am European and it is simply unbelievable to me that today we find ourselves in a situation where an American knows the mentality of the Russians better and that only on the basis of logic and common sense, and a Swede does not even know his own history. But even if you didn't know anything, if you listened to what Putin is telling you all the time, you would know what awaits you. Bilt says he doesn't know how it will end. It will end as the Hungarians know and don't want - the Russians in Budapest. Or in Warsaw. Or in your Stockholm. Listen to what Mearsheimer says, do you think that Godzilla who has all eyes on a rising China since Trump will fight and die for you? You think they will fire nukes at Russia if the Russians enter the Baltic countries and also be ready for Russia to nuke them? No, you will die for American interests and do as your boss tells you. Maybe even in Taiwan. And Russia will remain an enigma to you as before, so in the morning you will call Prigozhin's trolling a fight for freedom, and in the afternoon call him the terrorist. Putin should not be compared with Hitler, but this team to which Karl Bilt belongs. But I think that even in that comparison, Hitler would have acted more rationally in relation to them. Although both made the same mistake, attacking Russia. Fu**, some Russian soldiers from Asia die for Shoigu because they consider him the reincarnation of some Mongolian general, Chechens are waging a holy war in Ukraine against Western "values", and Bilt talks about some of his friends, who do not even make up 1% of Russia's population. Medvedev pretended to be a liberal for more than 10 years, and no one knew his true face. You thought you knew the Russian economy, but you won't even be able to recognize yours anymore, when the US bans us from trading with China. Damn you smart. I just hope that people like Mearsheimer will be in key positions, and not like Karl Bilt, when the Russians come to the border of Romania, Hungary and Poland in 2 years.

[@aclvaz]

excellent overview! i'm too from Europe and puzzled of the total lack of notion and common sense here

[@fintonmainz7845]

Obsessive

[@BIGBEN9999999]

Except that it took the Russians 1,5 year to get control over 18% of Ukrainian territory (a part of which they already had). Don't seems to me they could get to Bucarest, Budapest or Warshau in my lifetime. Neither do they have any reason or appetite to do so. The Baltic states might be a different thing, the indeed should be worried. Although, being part of NATO should protect them.

[@ДмитарРуђић]

@@BIGBEN9999999 Because your way of looking at the situation is completely wrong. Why do you look from the Russian side, when you know as much about Russians as the average European? So, nothing, and what you know is the result of propaganda. Let's look at it this way. It took Ukraine a year and a half to recapture 1% of its territory, that is, to really conquer it in a real fight, and not for the Russians to just retreat in front of it. The retreat of the army is one of the most complex military operations, because the retreat can easily turn into dispersal and flight. In the First World War, Austro-Hungarian officers highly valued the Russian ability to retreat without a single casualty. Today's Russian army has that quality (unlike Stalin's). They withdrew from the Kharkiv region, they withdrew from the Kherson region. It cost the Ukrainians about 20,000 dead if I remember correctly. Bakhmut cost the Ukrainians 50,000 dead and plus they lost that city. The Russians took up a defensive position in Zaporozhye and Donetsk, and in the last few days Ukrainian losses there amount to 1000 losses (dead+wounded per day). It's an old military calculation, the one who attacks should expect 3 times more losses on his side, and the Ukrainians have 5-7 more. They even lie to their Western allies about how many casualties they have, but that's why they are building a military cemetery next to Kiev that will be the largest in the world (capacity over 400,000 - maybe to 600 000, we will see), and they legally forbid those aged 16-18 to leave the country. Why if they have enough manpower? Ukraine massacred its army by throwing them at the Russians. 2-3 days of training and to the front, it was often the case. And the Russians gradually introduced and rotated their army, now they are all hardened fighters who have at least 6-8 months of war experience. Intuition and instincts boosted to the maximum. The difference between a rookie and a veteran is huge. The Russian military industry produces 3 times more annually than it did a year ago, and the West cannot supply Ukraine with what it needs. 9 Russian ones go to the caustic fired Ukrainian shell. And why would the Russians lose their infantry, when their artillery is doing the job? For territory? My friend, you have played too many PC games, this is not a war about territory. Territory will certainly come in the end, but this is a war similar to the American Civil War, and the Russians are using the ideas of Abraham Lincoln, and the strategy of General Grant adapted to the 21st century. Ukraine is already a broken country. Upper estimates of the dead and wounded reach one million. The Russians have ruined the country, more than NATO ruined Serbia/Yugoslavia (They have not yet reached their level of development and economic condition from '89). Now all that remains is to destroy the Ukraine army at the front. After a year and a half, it will not be as difficult as in 2022, when that army was trained and prepared by NATO for 8 years for this. That army is no more. And the entry of F-16 aircraft into the game, which can carry nuclear weapons, can be the reason for escalation and the use of tactical nukes. Putin said this even back in February 2001 in Vienna. So you see what we can expect to see in our lifetime. Let me also remind you about the fall of the Ukrainian drone on Zagreb or those Ukrainian rockets on Polish territory, when it was claimed that Russians was to blame for both cases. Has Article 5 of the NATO Alliance been activated? Don't be a fool. Remember how, during the corona, the Czech Republic (or Slovakia?) hijacked the delivery of Russian medical aid to Italy. When it comes to that, let's see if everyone wants to watch their own ass or die for ideals in the post-truth world.

[@ДмитарРуђић]

@@BIGBEN9999999 And yes, it's obvious that you either didn't listen to Miarsheimer or you don't understand it. It doesn't matter what you or I think or how it looks to us. What matters is what think those in Moscow.

[@alexandersenkoff]

Fantastic debate. Mersheimer is incredibly insightful and wise.

[@tomrlvag8234]

But he is wrong.

[@marclandreville6367]

@@tomrlvag8234 Well, that settles it: Mearsheimer is wrong. Brilliant analysis and we can all go home now.

[@tomrlvag8234]

@@marclandreville6367 You got it.

[@marclandreville6367]

@@tomrlvag8234 Not the way you think.

[@cmontes7961]

@@marclandreville6367 not quite.

[@brucethompson2940]

Seems like John M is debating both Carl B and the "moderator" in this debate. Clearly the moderator is not neutral in this debate. It seems like a fight in which the "referee" is hitting one of the 2 fighters. I can only assume that the outcome of this debate was predetermined.

[@andrewbaldwin4454]

Bildt's take on recent history is simply brutal. The Donbass rebellion broke out shortly after the unconstitutional removal of Yanukovych from office and the Rada voting away Russophone language rights as virtually their first act under the new regime. But to Bildt this is just a Russian takeover of what he calls Novorossiya. Does he have any idea what Novorossiya is! Is he that ignorant or deliberately being misleading?

[@contekozlovski]

No language rights were voted away. Yanukovich just left after he signed an agreement with the opposition to make new early elections.

[@andrewbaldwin4454]

@@contekozlovski What you write is false. Re language rights, Richard Sawka wrote: “Fourth, in policy terms, the government began with perhaps the worst of all possible moves, given the fragile unity of the country. The law of July 2012 [passed under President Viktor Yanukovych] granting regions the right to instate a second official language where there was at least a 10 per cent minority had been forced through against the bitter resistance of the nationalists. On 23 February parliament voted by an overwhelming majority to rescind the law. This was not just an attack on Russia but an assault against all of the country’s minority nations, and above all against the Russian-speakers in Crimea and the Donbas. In the ensuing uproar, Turchynov [the interim president] (after an unconscionable delay, during which time power was transferred in Crimea) on 28 February refused to sign and thus effectively vetoed the act, but the damage was done. This was attended by virulent anti-Russian rhetoric in the chamber, and a slew of proposals consolidating the victory of the radicals.” On the constitutionality of Yanukovych’s removal, again to quote Sawka: “[T]he impeachment of Yanukovych on 23 February was accompanied by armed insurgents strutting around the debating chamber. The formal procedure required the establishment of a dedicated investigatory committee by parliament and then a vote in favour of impeachment if so decided, followed by a decision of the Constitutional Court and the Supreme Court, and finally-most importantly-a vote by no fewer than three quarters of the constitutional total of the Verkhovna Rada (338 MPs). Instead, MPs were simply instructed to ‘sack’ Yanukovych. Even then, the vote did not reach the required majority: 328 of 447 MPs (73 per cent), many from the PoR [Party of Regions], voted to remove Yanukovych from the presidency on the grounds that he was unable to fulfil his responsibilities, even though an hour earlier on television Yanukovych insisted that he would not resign and at that point had not left the country. Article 111 of the constitution lists four circumstances in which an incumbent president may leave office-resignation, a serious health condition, impeachment, and death-none of which applied in this case.”

[@deecee796]

@@andrewbaldwin4454 When a system is corrupt and unjust, you cannot rely on it to work fairly. Sometimes it must be overthrown so a newer more fair system is put in place. That is the basis of any revolution that has gone through just such a process. And judging by the state of Yanukvoich's gawdy palace and the systemic amount of corruption that took place there (something that is still a bit of an issue today), it can be fair to say they had this coming. "...an assault against all of the country’s minority nations". Hardly. Considering it was a law that was put in place barely two years previous. Russian and other minority languages are still allowed to be spoken and used. In the end one has to ask, why Yanukovich and his govt inspired such a great degree of hatred from Ukrainians? Id also consider that attaining a majority of 75 percent is ludicrous amount to attain on grounds of impeachment/sacking.

[@gerhardrinkens2115]

Carl Bildt is theorizing over our heads in Europe.... NICE.... Thank John Mearsheimer... thanks for your good thinking...!!!

[@billa4166]

2:25:33 statement by Mearsheimer is the truest statement of the whole debate. The lady just ignores it and moves on.

[@torepedersen3109]

Yeah I was really hoping that they would actually go deeper on this point. But of course not, the rest of the world does not matter I suppose.

[@allenward758]

His point was spot on!

[@VoloBonja]

Everyone with their brain in place sees russia as a terrorist state and putin as hitler. So, mearsheimers comment about US being bad guy? Yes, US is bad guy, which is still preferrable to terrorist who at the moment, on new years eve, bombs civilians and civil infrastructure in Ukraine. Its a genocide started by Putin, wake up. Mearsheimer is so wrong and delirious (or just putins bitch)

[@pplr1]

His point was ignorant of recent history. I know that people in many nations-especially Central and South America or "Latin America"-have a bad history with the USA. That is true. But it doesn't not excuse that for the last several years Putin's Russia has been creating bad history with other nations and in this situation Putin is very much on the wrong side morally. Acknowledging the wrongs of the past does not excuse the wrongs of the present-especially against people(s) innocent of the past wrongs such as Ukrainians.

[@mensrea1251]

She’s actually quite clueless.

[@hechristal3031]

Borders can’t be changed by force except, of course, when it’s done by the US.

[@verakehrli5636]

As long as we have politicians like Carl Borg, we will never have peace.

[@antoniopapadopoylos]

ΤΗΙS TOTAL IDIOT, CARL BILDT AND OTHER IDIOTS EXACTLY LIKE HIM IS THE ROOT REASON OF THE DEMISE OF SWEDEN, HE CONSIDERS THE "RUSSIANS" AS A THREAT FOR ...SWEDEN, AND NOT THE SYSTEMATIC ISLAMIZATION OF HIS ONCE UPON A TIME GREAT EX-NATION OF HIS? SWEDEN DURIND THE COLD WAR, FLOURISHED AND PROSPERED AS A N E U T R A L NATION UNTIL THIS CRIMINAL OR OTHERS LIKE HIM PUT IT IN... NATO, AND CAUSE AN EXISTENTIAL THREAT FOR THE SWEDES. SAME GOES ALSO FOR THE FINNS WHO ARE ALSO THE VICTIMS OF CRIMNAL POLITICIANS LIKE CARL BILDT. THESE CRIMINALS SHOULD GO DOWN IN HISTORY AS MOST DANGEROUS PSYCHOPATHS LEADING EUROPE AND EUROPEAN UNION INTO WORLD WAR III, THE ONLY ONE WHO SUCCEEDS UNDER HIS POLICIES IS THE MILITARY INDUSTRY OF HIS COUNTRY. THIS CRIMINAL IS ALSO RESPONSIBLE FOR THE USELESS MASSACRE OF OVER 1 MILLION UKRAINIANS SO FAR, DR MEARSHEIMER TRIES MANY TIMES TO ASK HIM VERY BASIC QUESTION BUT THIS PSYCHOPATH INCLUDING THIS MENTALLY SICK WOMAN FAILING TO REPLY. IT IS FUNNY THAT THIS "DEBATE" IS OVER A YEAR AGO SO EVERYBODY CAN SEE THAT ALL HIS "PREDCTIONS" OR ESTIMATIONS ABOUT THE RUSSIANS FAIL. SO TO SAY THE LEAST , HE IS A TOTAL FAILURE, BUT IN REALITY IS A WAR CRIIMINAL WHO DESTROYES THE EUROPEAN ECONOMIES, PEOPLES' LIVES AN D GLOBAL PEACE AND SECURITY, HIM ALONG WITH THE OTHER CRIMINAL AND MENTAL RETARD JENS STOLDERBEG SHOULD GO TO JAIL AS SOON AS POSSIBLE

[@lasisy]

Thanks John M.

[@seppokesti777]

John Mearsheimer is a good speaker!

[@ChristianBang34]

this kind of discussion is almost unheard of in Denmark, everybody just has to fall in line with the governments policy

[@karenz1634]

That doesn't sound free and democratic, sorry if that's how it is.

[@ChristianBang34]

@@karenz1634 Well it is democratic and a free society, just people are very afraid of having an opion that differs from the majority.

[@Internetbutthurt]

its amazing how common that is in the West....so much for democracy, freedom of speech etc

[@gerhardkarel4209]

Same in canada

[@daddystu7046]

Same here in the U.K. nowadays. Governments view on Russia and China gets painted all over the mass media tabloids and Gen Public sees and believes.

[@AhmedAliIbr]

The moderator is anything but fair moderator. She is supposed to be presenting both sides of the argument rather than from the very opening words siding wholeheartedly against professor John Mearsheimer.

[@alexeibolocan]

It's OK history has John on it's right side!

[@huang5723]

An ex-diplomat is hardly diplomatic; I thought a debate is not meant to be a political campaign (see hour 1.29.45). Thanks John for being extremely patient like he always be in his lecture.

[@Lo-mw8dk]

Mearsheimer is too clever for the other two, you need to get him to debate with another person who can speak clearly and articulately

[@scania1982]

I am two hours into this debate and I agree with Bildt. I am not a strong person but standing up to the bully in the eat despite nuclear weapons seems to be the least bad idea.

[@mcomeadow]

@@scania1982 So you wish the Soviets had stood up to the American bully in Cuba, and stationed their military bases (not just missile bases either) in Cuba - as was their sovereign right..? That would have led to WW3 had diplomacy not prevailed, just as this disaster may well yet.

[@scania1982]

@@mcomeadow No, I side with the country that comes closest to having a government one can elect, examine and critisize.

[@ninaloos3071]

@@scania1982 where did you come across such a country? In your dreams? Are you taking the same "medicine" as the Person of the Year?

[@hoareg2]

The professor patiently listened to Bildt but when he talked, Bildt interrupted him quite a few times. And the moderator did nothing. Quite bad moderating honestly.

[@artosuryo]

An excellent discussion. Mr Bildt confirmed and expanded Joseph Borrell’s statement on the garden-jungle dichotomy, which is important for people in other parts of the world to know what to expect from Europe. An important point that hadn’t come up was how the wars in Iraq, Syria, Libya had undermined the international system that, directly and indirectly, contributed to the Ukraine War.

[@julius43461]

Yup, the "rules based" world order is nothing but fantasy. It's a world where the "policeman" can abuse the system, while everyone else is to handicap their foreign policy by following the rules.

[@laurisuoranta5512]

I can confirm that the garden which Mr Borrell and Mr. Bildt are talking about is actually in Thailand. It's full name is Wang Saen Suk Hell Garden.

[@VovaSibelia]

The undermining of the international system began with the bombing of Yugoslavia in 1999 and the occupation of Kosovo by NATO troops.

[@cejannuzi]

The problem is JM represents a part of the US elite. He is simply blocking the pursuit of the truth on the other end of a rather narrow spectrum of discussion.

[@zerogravity5219]

@@VovaSibelia obviously as Mr. Bildt said that was necessary to bring there western liberal democracy with freedom of speech. I'm sure he has lots of friends from Belgrad (who now are dead or not in Serbia) who supported those things

[@sylwiatime]

I wish there was a debate between Mearsheimer and Timothy Snyder i.e. someone who also has the American perspective but at the same time is really knowledgable about Central-Eastern Europe what cannot be said about Mearsheimer.

[@itsacomment5991]

Best comment. A lot of silly fan-boying for Mearsheimer by those predisposed to agree with Mearsheimer. There are many highly capable analysts who would disagree with Mearsheimer on many points. Timothy Snyder would be an excellent choice to debate him, but there are others as well. Mearsheimer, as a forecaster of the future, has the problem of being an ideologue committed to offensive realism. Any forecast that deviates from his grand view is a threat to his entire worldview, which reduces his cognitive flexibility and his ability to deal with facts that don't "fit" his ideology. Snyder could be said to suffer the same, but at least he would bring countervailing evidence and inconvenient facts to the table.