The 2022 Holberg Debate w/ John Mearsheimer and Carl Bildt: Ukraine, Russia, China and the West

09:37 Event starts: Welcome by the Holberg Prize Chair, Professor Kjersti Fløttum.
12:15 Introduction by Cecilie Hellestveit.
16:08 Opening remarks by Carl Bildt.
32:46 Opening remarks by John. J. Mearsheimer.
56:53 Moderated discussion.
2:32:36 Closing remarks by Carl Bildt.
2:36:13 Closing remarks by John J. Mearsheimer.
The 2022 Holberg Debate: 'Will Fear Keep Us Safe?'
How will the war in Ukraine and other geopolitical crises impact the global security order, and what do they mean for the power of deterrence ?
Panel: John J. Mearsheimer and Carl Bildt
Moderator: Cecilie Hellestveit
Organizer: The Holberg Prize
John J. Mearsheimer is the R. Wendell Harrison Distinguished Service Professor of Political Science at the University of Chicago, where he has taught since 1982. He graduated from West Point (1970), has a PhD in political science from Cornell University (1981), and has written extensively about security issues and international politics. Among Mearsheimer’s six books, The Tragedy of Great Power Politics (2001, 2014) won the Joseph Lepgold Book Prize; and The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy (with Stephen M. Walt, 2007), made the New York Times bestseller list and has been translated into twenty-five languages. His latest book is The Great Delusion: Liberal Ideals and International Realities (2018), which won the 2019 Best Book of the Year Award from the Valdai Discussion Conference, Moscow. In addition, Mearsheimer has a forthcoming book (with Sebastian Rosato), Homo Theoreticus: Rationality in International Politics. He has also written numerous articles and op-eds that have appeared in International Security, London Review of Books, Foreign Affairs, The Financial Times, and The New York Times. In 2003, Mearsheimer was elected to the American Academy of Arts and Sciences, and in 2020, he won the James Madison Award, which is given once every three years by the American Political Science Association to “an American political scientist who has made a distinguished scholarly contribution to political science.”
Carl Bildt is Co-Chair of the European Council on Foreign Relations and contributing columnist to The Washington Post, as well as columnist for Project Syndicate. He serves as Senior Advisor to the Wallenberg Foundations in Sweden and is on the Board of Trustees of the RAND Corporation in the US. Bildt has served as both Prime Minister and Foreign Minister of Sweden. In March 2021, Bildt was appointed WHO Special Envoy for the Access to COVID-19 Tools Accelerator (ACT-Accelerator). Subsequently he served in international functions with the EU and UN, primarily related to the conflicts in the Balkans. Bildt was Co-Chairman of the Dayton peace talks on Bosnia and become the first High Representative in the country. Later, he was the Special Envoy of UN Secretary General Kofi Annan to the region.
Cecilie Hellestveit (moderator) is a lawyer and social scientist with a PhD in international humanitarian law (IHL) from the University of Oslo. She has been associated with a number of research institutes in Norway and abroad. Hellestveit researches and teaches in the field of international law, use of force, and armed conflicts.
For more information: See the Holberg Prize website, holbergprize.org/en/2022-holb...
Facebook event page: events/48722...

[Holberg Prize]

Watch all the Holberg Debates here: holbergprize.org/en/en/holberg-prize/holberg-debate

[D]

I'll check 'em out. Thank you Gotta watch the Pfizer Mutation story right now. 1/25/2023

[neytiri n]

Ppp

[Mikael Reichel]

"In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act." -- George Orwell

[SY]

​@January’s Son ❤

[SY]

​@Mikael Reichel ❤❤❤

[pplr1]

@Ali E.M. I listened to a lecture he gave years ago and this discussion. Which, in your opinion am I getting wrong and where? If this debate then what part in specific?

[Ali E.M.]

@pplr1 you’ve not understood Mearsheimer. Rewatch and listen more closely

[Arto Suryodipuro]

An excellent discussion. Mr Bildt confirmed and expanded Joseph Borrell’s statement on the garden-jungle dichotomy, which is important for people in other parts of the world to know what to expect from Europe. An important point that hadn’t come up was how the wars in Iraq, Syria, Libya had undermined the international system that, directly and indirectly, contributed to the Ukraine War.

[SY]

❤❤❤

[Virtanen]

I don’t really see connection between Ukraine war and the wars in the Middle-East. The international law has never really existed when countries like Russia and China have been using their Veto and playing geopolitics when there human catastrophe is taking place.

[Newlifer]

All those asymetrics wars, shelling down to stoneage, are the gift of the garden to the jungle.

[Вова Сайбилия]

@Ian Stevenson The consumer of MSM content is immediately visible. You forgot who started the war in Kosovo (it wasn't the Serbs, if you don't know) and who prepared them on the territory of Albania. The Kosovars waged war not only against the Yugoslav police, but also against local residents. Do you know how many people died, but you write about "genocide"? Read about the genocide of Serbs by Kosovars after the departure of Serbian troops and police from the province. And this is when KFOR is there. What's it like? Have you also not forgotten about the massive illegal transplantation in Kosovo? I hope you haven't forgotten about Colin Powell's test tube either? That's why the US and NATO "intervened" in Iraq, right? So where are Iraq's nuclear and chemical weapons?

[Ian Stevenson]

@Вова Сайбилия we haven't forgotten the ethnic cleansing started by the Serbs and mass murder done by their forces. That is why NATO intervened

[Máté Arnóth]

Almost 4 months passed since the upload of this debate which I really enjoyed and whose words seemed to have come true so far?:) Definitely the highly respected wise Prof. Mearsheimer who was the reason why I watched this debate previously.

[Quang Le]

I love this debate conference. It opened the eyes of many parties who didn’t come to the debate agreeing with one another.

[Carol Price]

It's good to talk about this, if not easy. Now please can we have Putin and Zelenskiy talking together about the future...?

[Kri Må]

To hear their closing words, both from Carl Bildt (a true globalist) and from John Mearsheimer (a logic realist), was indeed very claryfying.

[pplr1]

@Jayson Dgreat I've been busy so I didn't see read your reply until now. Yes the Soviet Union had a military presence in Cuba for most of the Cold War.

[Jayson Dgreat]

@pplr1 you can't answer?

[Jayson Dgreat]

@pplr1 they have military presence their?

[pplr1]

@Clickie13 To say all politicians believe the same this is to indicate you never took a close look at the platforms of different political parties or politicians. Politicians in many nations often have notable disagreements with each other. There are times when politicians of 2 different parties agree on something or agree to work together but often their parties run against each other in the elections because the parties and individual politicians disagree with each other.

[Denis B]

Very interesting debates. As always John Mersheimer is standing by his opinion which is very respectable. His debate opponent this time seemed a much more likeable guy than most of the ones i've seen before. Most people expressing the conventional wisdom like Carl Bildt do it in a very narrow and heated fashion but he seems like an agreeable guy even when facing polarizing arguements or at least trying to be one. Was a pleasure listening to constructive debates unlike when John is facing someone like McFaul.

[Albert Dittel]

This was an excellent discussion! I am a native Russian speaker, have been paying attention to this conflict for years and am quite well informed and this is a very rare occasion, where two experts have radically opposing views and I cannot help, but see very good and truthfull arguments from both. That's the kind of discussions we need! This makes one earnestly think and this is actual public political education! (in contrast to what mainstream and internet media usually feed us)

[pplr1]

@K Shen It matters a great deal because that shows if 1 nation was actually defending itself or not. Also the lack of any massacre and that the supposedly oppressed group was so oppressed 1 of its members because President shows Russia was not saving people. Russian "torture centers" also show they were not there to protect "human rights". Instead the Russian military came with a plan to violate human rights.

[K Shen]

@pplr1 Russia also warned many times before when Ukraine army performed the massacre to those Russia speaking citizens.

[K Shen]

@pplr1 It doesn’t matter happened inside or outside of Russia or Ukraine, Russia just learnt from USA and NATO and took exact same excuse to protect the human rights of those Russia speaking population. Where were you when USA declared 13 wars after WWII? So many USA’s invasions and massive killing in other sovereign countries, have you ever blamed this big “democratic” country, USA?

[Hapa Harper]

This debate would have benefitted greatly from a moderator capable of asking questions without injecting her own incompetent opinions at every turn.

[Øyvind Røed Bremnes]

@Gunnar Kaestle She allowed Merarsheimer to speak freely without insulting or silencing him.

[Gunnar Kaestle]

@Øyvind Røed Bremnes _"this event will get her labeled a Putin-lover"_ - Why?

[Øyvind Røed Bremnes]

In Scandinavia this event will get her labeled a Putin-lover...

[Gunnar Kaestle]

@Sean Gong _"She has her side already before it started"_ - Actually, giving John Mearsheimer the last word in the closing remarks allows him to leave a longer lasting impression.

[Gellerium]

this kind of discussion is almost unheard of in Denmark, everybody just has to fall in line with the governments policy

[Phonk]

You guys should change that.

[gunnarMyTube]

@Karen Z As democratic as it can become with two opponents and a less than neutral moderator

[Karen Z]

@K Shen I agree. Well said.

[K Shen]

@Karen Z In order to push investments back to America and save its economy from crisis, igniting the Ukraine War would be American traditional behavior, like Kosovo War against newly established EU dollar system, while it is hard to create conflict or crisis in nowadays most prosperous area, East Asia. China has ignored all reckless provocations from America and didn’t fall into the trap.

[Araponga de Orléans e Bragança]

Scandinavians in general have the unfortunate tendency to blindly follow authority, especially State authority. Sweden under covid was a perfect case study that clearly demonstrated this phenomenon. While the entire world was taking serious action against the spread of the virus, the overwhelming majority of Swedes were perfectly happy to take the diametrically opposite route just because their own government said so. Myself and my partner were accosted on several occasions because we were wearing masks. Swedes felt compelled and entitled to disturb us in public to tell us to remove our masks, because it wasn't governmental policy. "It is making people scared". And also, as others pointed out, they suffer from the unmitigated blight of herd mentality. Cultural tendencies work to ensure that one does not stand out from the crowd, further enshrining the idea that one just follows along popular consensus, however mistaken. It is more socially costly than elsewhere to be a truth-teller, especially when that truth contradicts popular consensus.

[Pajazit Ajroe]

This is one of the the best topics in long time.

[Joe Caruso]

Obviously, fear would never keep anyone safe rather it will keep you disadvantaged and unprepared. Take myself for instance, i had built a $355k following an economic downturn. Despite how pressured i was to sell most assets, i had held on with concrete thesis and strategy. In light of the current global state of the economy, it is selfish to have leaders vested in national disputes. We need to do better as individual nation. How hard can saying the truth be directly?

[Martin P. Chenoweth]

Matt…I agree with you.

[Ally Ivanov]

@Huey Morello her web page seems detailed and she’s sorta polite following her profile. I just got off a conversation with her. Thinking about it.

[Huey Morello]

@Mary Alchester same Yvonne Annette Lively from cbc? Well, I currently do not work with her anymore. I would consider a 9.2% monthly roi unimpressive.

[Mary Alchester]

Because of our constant desire to handle things on our own, we are in a perilous financial position. In spite of the current economic crisis, I have a strong bullish bias for the euro. Delegation is essential if you want to learn at your own pace. The key is knowing when to jump in and when to pull out of a situation. Technical and upfront fundamentals are never complete. I have been able to learn at my own pace and earn up to $50k roi on a $100k investment by following Yvonne Annette Lively's instructions.

[Matt J. Damon]

Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work. Thomas Edison

[Johnny Deppsky]

Carl is so funny 😂 Just the mimics.. I couldn’t take him seriously after a while. But he made really good points, well done

[Oleh Kovch]

Oh you prefer appeasement

[January’s Son]

What good points did he make? John picked him apart.

[All At Sea]

I admire Mearsheimer's patience during this "discussion". I've been following him for some years now and he's normally more nuanced in his line of argument, but here he only stuck to his main points and as he realized that his counterparts are just not capable of challenging his thesis, he just tried to stay as polite as humanly possible.

[MrRoyalbeers]

he was smashed. End of.

[Robin O]

@fmtoussant You can insult me all you want. Still doesn't makes Mearsheimer position more valid.

[fmtoussant]

@Robin O is quite delusional. Debates like this are supposed to educate people but Robin O is way too twisted in delusion to benefit from it.

[Halvard Widerøe]

he absolutely lost

[A Leon G.]

Mearsheimer is a brilliant man. Thanks for your input sir!

[Syamal Ghosh]

In a way this debate was a mismatch, or a most appropriate balanced debate, between two persons with clearly competing views. One of them is on the board of the Rand Corporation think tank that advises US military and the US State Department and the other a realist college Professor of the University of Chicago, one somewhat emotional, other quite factual in their assertions.

[Tracey Croxford]

Absolutely Brilliant Mearsheimer, it's good to hear the truth! As for Carl, he's delusional or a paid actor.

[R421 Guard]

Glad that Mearsheimer agreed to this!

[D]

This was the first time I saw a debate with Mearsheimer. I think they all did a good program. Thanks to whoever put it on youtube...12?2022

[D]

@Paul von Oberstein I agree. Nobody knows it all, completely...1/2023

[Paul von Oberstein]

I don't agree with Mearsheimer on everything, but he's brilliant and has written some great books on international relations.

[halfcolombian]

Must be pretty frustrating for John. He probably can see through the BS of Carl but still he never cuts him off. He knows he's in a hostile environment.

[gunnarMyTube]

@Jules Moules Yes facilitator role here is to protect certain narrative.

[KK Kriv]

Yes... Much respect to this gentleman Mearsheimer; great patience!

[Eli Johansen]

@mensrea More like overly opinionated, whilst simultaneously being under-informed.

[Magdalena Algarin]

Yes John did handled himself well considering it was two against one....

[l3eatalpha l3eatalpha]

It would never help his point of view to be outwardly confrontational or aggressive as it could easily be cast as a microcosm of a pro-Russian mindset with aggression and domination being the motivations.

[Olivera Blagojevic]

Thank you for having a DEBATE. It’s been missing and it is hard to find elsewhere.

[Michelle Lafaye]

It's great to see a REAL DEBATE. We don't see too many of them these days.

[oddjobbob]

It would have been a better debate had the moderator, whose personal animus towards Russia is so obvious, been fair and objective. Might as well have brought in Brian Stelter, previously of CNN, or Mike Wallace, also previously of CNN+.

[Olivia]

Dr. John Meirsheimer you are brilliant! Thank you.

[Larissa Chase]

John is a phenomenal researcher, scientist, honest, brave and very exceptional human being. The more people listen carefully, with logic on, to what he says, the less chances are we will all suffer the consequences of the policy of a little group of people who run the world show and never had enough of wealth, the sickest people on the planet. Thank you for letting John speak his wisdom!

[Israel R]

So, let me check if Igot it right: If next Putin decides he can't live with an independent Poland, we should all bow to him. Is that it?

[Eldar Gerfanov]

"If Russia decides to use nukes in Ukraine, that is the chance we can live with" - Carl

[Björn Nilsson]

Indeed

[Lucia Zaichenko]

what a wonderful talk! Thank you!

[Tempest123]

In the past, I saw Prof Mearsheimer as pro-US but since the Ukrainian war, he has been quite unbiased and accurate with his comments and understanding of the world at large.

[Kevin Uchiha]

i donnu, he seems biased towards "single country super powers". He isnt even acknowledging EU or EUs interests in his "super power"-analysis. I dont see that as unbiased. He is talking about understanding the interests of the super powers of Russia and China, but as an american he just sees EU as an extension of US.

[Seppo Kesti]

John Mearsheimer is a good speaker!

[les Pi]

The most honest and truth about the war. Yet so rare. John Mearsheimer is a wise and calm scholar

[Denis Shamanin]

Fun observation: NO word of mention of Ukraine’s destiny in Carl’s closing words. Tells you something.

[jag5316]

Yes. John commands the stage!

[Alice Adachi]

First of all, all country has different history even they are taking about same event. In fact I was so shocked. When I was tour guide for Japanese, one of my tourist was the veterinarian who fought war in WW2. He came to Hawaii and tour to Pearl Harbor. Back then there wasn’t Japanese translate, but one Japanese American translated for him. He was so furious and said he was so sad and shocked…..

[Damir Ribic]

@Greg Grimer We understood all the intended meaning, no need for grammar nazism

[Greg Grimer]

You mean a veteran. A veternarian is an animal doctor. There is no such word as a veterinarian. I cannot speak a single word of Japanese so you are a lot smarter than me.

[Tien Ser Tan]

finally, to hear someone who is a grounded in reality, believing that life has to start from where we are and not from where we dream it will be is very humbling and liberating, thanks Professor John, please continue spreading the message!

[Jayson Dgreat]

@Богдан Беркут what lies pro John had said can you point one?

[D Z]

@Богдан Беркут 1st assertion - you are missing the point of the existential threat that John was talking about. I assume you are familiar with Monro doctrine? Russians have similar understanding and assessment of the threat at their borders, and NATO expansion or potential expansion was one of many factors in that assessment. How would you assess the dynamics of threat to Russia over the last 20 years? And if you followed the events you would notice that Putin warned the West many times that they are reaching the red line. It is pretty obvious and logical that any country in such dire circumstances would react the same way as the Russia did. So, I believe John was right on point here. And again - it's not how we see it, it's how Russia sees the red lines. 2nd assertion - I've been watching Putin for the last 20 years and I do not remember him saying anything suggesting of conquering another country. If you know please share what speech he mention that. 3rd assertion - Russia had around 150k troops before the invasion vs. 250k Ukrainian troops. And all military sources suggest that you have to have at least 3 times the army if you attack to try to be successful in the assault, not even mentioning of conquering such a huge territory with 30 million people. It is impossible and surely Russian knew that. The quick targeted advance towards Kiev was made out of desperation in an attempt of regime change. Russia obviously was not ready for the war with such a small army but evidently some red lines were crossed and Russia had to react. We do not know all the details but Putin is not suicidal to attack with small army hoping to conquer the world. He is too smart for that. Again, math and the facts are on John's side and I agree with him.

[D Z]

@Богдан Беркут You said that Meschenheimer is a liar and I asked to elaborate but you didn't. So, what thesis in that context you are asking me to choose?

[Богдан Беркут]

@D Z I suggested that you choose a thesis that I should refute, but you did not.

[rodrigo dezubiria]

Fantastic discussion on an incredibly difficult world situation

[suna 173.6jm]

really enjoyed watching this. as opponents to realist theories go mr bildt is very calm and open. of course as a mearsheimer stan i dont agree with him but respect

[evghenii turco]

John Mearsheimer is quite good in describing russian point of view at this war. You don't have to agree with it, but it's useful to at least be aware of

[Mick von Bornemann]

@Богдан Беркут Ah I bet you are under 40. Because you are quoting misinformation from those false fact propaganda school textbooks bought out during the Poroshenko & Yushchenko reigns. Fact is 'Krijena' / 'Ukraine' has meant borderlands all over the Slavic world since the days when Slavic was put to paper as 'Old Church Slavonic'. The most famous example is Krijena in Croatia, which started as the border area between the Eastern & western Roman Empires, thus becoming the border between the Roman script & the Greek/Cyrilic script, the border between the Catholic & Orthadox churches & thus the border between Serbs & Croats. Many places with derivatives of this name also come down to simply the local boundary between say a sub-fief & a local manor estate with allegiance to different petty lords. The study of the origin & history of words is called etymology & there's a thing called etymological contraction where a meaning of a word contracts over time. In the case of 'Krijena' / 'Ukraine' meaning 'borderlands' to it's modern interpretation as 'region' or 'lands' is a classic example of etymological contraction. Afterall naming a place simply 'region' or ' lands' defeats the whole purpose of giving a region a name in the 1st place. That''s why England, Scotland, Ireland, Iceland & Finland, etc have never been known as simply 'Land' as it would never be done.

[Cody Vector]

@Богдан Беркут "Wikipedia" is your source is it? LOL

[Mick von Bornemann]

@Богдан Беркут You've been conned by those fictional textbooks that the Poroshenko & Yushchenko govts put out. Ukraine / Krijina owes it's origin to the Slavic word for borderlands. Thats why all over the Slavic world there are places with derivitives of that name. Some simply for a place where a small sub-fief bordered a manor estate on the main path between the 2. The most famous being Krijina in Croatia a region where the border was between the Western & Eastern Roman Empires, thus the border between the Greek & Latin alphabets, which then became the border between the Catholic & Orthadox churches & the Croatians & Serbs, their differance being those respective churches & their alphabets. Ever heard of Etymology, it's the study of words, in particularly their history. In this regard we have Etymological contraction. Ukraine / krijena meant borderland / border country / border region but over time the meaning has contracted to just land / country / region. But the premise still stands, Ukraine got that name as the border region between 3 great powers Russia, Poland/Lithuania & Turkey. Also no one's going to name a place 'Country' or 'Land' just as no one's going to name a city, 'City' - it defeats the purpose of giving a place a name. Which is why if you go back into Ukraine's history (without using the fiction in the school textbooks from the Poroshenko & Yushchenko eras) there's no doubt the origin of the name comes from the old Slavonic name for 'Borderlands'. So the premise still stands, either be known as the borderlands between Ukraine's 3 great Neighbours or retake the name Kievanrus. But I know why you don't like that, because that would make you a subset of the Russians, like the White Russians / Belarus, but because of the crap in Poroshenko's & Yushchenko's text books you feel superior to you neighbours (even though even before this war started, Russia's GDP was over 5 times greater per capita, that's per person you know).

[Богдан Беркут]

@Mick von Bornemann In Ukrainian, "kraina" means country, land. The letter "u" is also the word "in" or "inside". The combination of these words gives the meaning - "people living in their own land" or "people living in their country". The borderland in Ukrainian has a different word - "prikordonnya". Russians like to speculate about the name of Ukraine because this name is similar to another common Slavic word "okraina" which means "near the edge".

[Elga Ritt]

Thank you Mr. Mearsheimer !

[Guidinglight Books International Thomas]

Professor Mearsheimer is a Master Teacher. The former European Prime Minister seems to be a nice guy, but he is out of his league with the professor.

[Eric]

@kekule Have you checked the documentary?

[Eric]

@kekule Search the documentary Donbass 2016, reported by A franch reporter Anne Laure Bonnel.

[kekule]

@Eric Are you Russian or an Ukrainian, who lived in those eastern regions? I understand how state propaganda in Russia works and I can assure you, the fact that they do not speak of the EU means exactly the opposite. Putin is not afraid of NATO, he is afraid of a free, independent Ukraine.

[Eric]

@kekule Have you seen Putin criticize Ukraine joins EU? If blue helmet can stop the war, there will be no more war, right? The people in East Ukraine had bad life after the color resolution.

[kekule]

@Eric large portions of the Kiev population lives currently underground, Russian language is really the last issue to bother about. What fascism are you referring to? Dont forget, last February Russia presided over the Security Council of the UN, we did not see any Russian attempt to show those alleged atrocities or try to call the UN blue helmets to help.. Germany and France would have opposed the Ukraine joining NATO. It really is the EU membership that worried the Russians the most, the "bad" example of a prospering Ukraine is the ultimate fear.

[Ahmad rashid Elahi]

Well done John!!!

[milivoj milosevic]

It seems that this war was preventable, could have been prevented, and it was the duty of our leaders to prevent this awful tragedy from occurring. Even the politicians most blinded by ideology should have foreseen this disaster, but they did not lift a finger to prevent it.

[Kevin Uchiha]

could have been prevented by assinating Putin earlier

[Joseph Barney]

@Austin P. I keep hoping that truth will finally be *stronger* than fiction.

[Karen Z]

@Ian Stevenson that was after they had already set the course and policy. Those were meaningless words to obscure what had been decided, that was not said at the beginning. Only after weeks of criticism of their interference. This was observable even in the MSM at the time.

[Ian Stevenson]

@Karen Z no The Americans and nATO said they were prepared to talk about security but not dictate Ukraine's foreign policy.

[SmallScreenTV]

There's a point in this discussion where even Carl realises he's wrong.

[Tom Whitworth1]

when?

[bee splaining]

Yes, Carl just leaves some things ride because he's been snookered!

[halfcolombian]

Well Carl is what us Swedes call "ett rövhål", I think the international term is an "a-hole"

[January’s Son]

There were many such moments. 😂

[jakeready64]

Regarding the last part of the discussion involving the JCOP agreement with Iran. It was an executive agreement subject to cancellation by another executive or president. Also, there were so many Sunset provisions in that nuclear agreement that it guaranteed legally that Iran could obtain. A nuclear weapon. The agreement was really a arms control agreement not to eliminate their ability to obtain material for a nuclear weapon. Indeed, the agreement provides them the ability to obtain a nuclear device.

[Marcus Aurelius]

New drinking game: Take a shot every time Carl Bildt mentions hitler. Kudos if you make it to Mearsheimer actually entering the stage

[California's Last Gasp]

Or every time he says uses his “fantasy” insult.

[Centanaire]

John seems to be more cool-headed and analytical and the other side is bit more emotional and idealogical.

[G C]

And yet he is wrong. This is the issue with perception

[andrew cooper cooper]

Bilt sits on the Board of Trustees of the Rand Corporation in the USA and begins at 16 minutes. John Mearsheimer begins at 32 minutes and worth your attention.

[Kevin Uchiha]

@Sime i think you are reading into his emotions the way you want to. You are seeing things. Im not feeling that at all from Carl

[Richard Parker]

@Sime Thanks. I noticed that too. Indeed, during the whole discussion JM could reference facts to support his argument, CB was relying on repeating the Western narrative.

[John O_K]

@Sime Thanks for time stamps with analysis

[Sime]

Carl was really breaking under pressure from John M. at 1:28:00 to 1:32:00. The mediator stopped the debate because of how uncomfortable and all red Carl was, so she stopped the discussion. The build up of arguments that Carl has NO answer to starts at around 1:13:00 and it builds and builds argument after argument up to when the mediator had to stop them because Carl was breaking under pressure. Just look at how his voice changes from 1:28:00 to 1:30:00. John made the following arguments that Carl had no answer to: 1. Carl says that Russian elites disagree with Putin. John M. provides evidence that it is not the case and that most Russian elites DO agree with Putin. Carl had no response to that and did not provide evidence. 2. Carl said that NATO expansion was off the table in 2008, John provided evidence that it was not the case because the US said in june 2021 that they want to incorporate Ukraine into NATO. Carl provided no evidence that opposed this, only empty words. Mediator asks J.M. a question so we don't get a response from Carl, again... ( because he has no evidence!). 3. At 1:30:00 Carl says again that Ukraine was not going to get into NATO because "we had no forces there" like incorporation into NATO "requires" forces in that country. This is not true. None of the countries that became a part of NATO from 1994 to 2020 had NATO forces in that country before becoming members so this is total nonsense. Carl was really breaking down at this point and I am really disappointed that the mediator cut the debate here. That was really unfortunate.

[mensrea]

Thanks for that info. Really important context since the Rand Corporation hasn't seen a war it doesn't like.

[Hasani Oliver]

Great discussion, and it's good to hear the reality of the situation being discussed rather than propaganda for a change.

[nyalarhotep]

Alright mate, you win. Or whatever is it you are trying to achieve. There is exactly zero prospect of any kind of meaningful conversation with you and i dont have unlimited time on my hands.

[Konstantin Pogorelov]

@nyalarhotep lol I can recognize your manipulative language without your "help". Trying to attack me personally only shows that you cannot defend your statement. Anyways, my comment was about Meersheimer - not the other guy. Attacking the other guy doesnt prove anything.

[nyalarhotep]

@Konstantin Pogorelov If you don`t want to bother reading previous comments, restrain yourself from telling me what i did or did not mention in them, because i DID underline his use of adjectives. And nothing is "problem" with his use of adjectives, it is simply a textbook example of propaganda by using "loaded language" technique. From your question it is obvious that you don't have the faintest idea what propaganda actually is. First, if you want to be able to recognize propaganda, you need to read about it. And not only about what is propaganda and loaded language and pathos, but you should read more in general. If you read and educate yourself a bit above your current level, you would start recognizing manipulative patterns in speech by yourself, without my help. But, like most of idiots, you found yourself qualified to lecture people who are way above your level of knowledge, achieving only to make a fool of yourself.

[Konstantin Pogorelov]

@nyalarhotep u cant even spell "Nyarlathotep" correctly, or even bother to look it up XD and here you are lecturing who belongs in a discourse and how adjectives should be used

[kppphd]

Carl is a crazy madman!

[CrniStevan]

John steamrolled Carl... many times and I liked it!

[ClueSeeker]

For me a major concern is the fact that for more than eight years Kiev forces have been shelling and killing civilians in Donetsk City. (For evidence, see videos uploaded to KZbin by Patrick Lancaster, Eva Bartlett, Graham Phillips, and others.) Mainstream Western media and politicians have been ignoring these attacks, but UN refugee statistics show that to avoid death and injury more than two million people fled to Russia. For most of these years, Russia refrained from intervening so as to allow peace talks to have a chance of success. If the US and its allies cared about human lives, they could have pressured Kiev to stop these attacks. But they not only failed to do that, but emboldened Kiev to continue attacks by giving it weapons. In this situation the victims in Eastern Ukraine had a natural right to ask for protection from Russia and Russia had a natural right to intervene to provide protection. With respect to international law Russia's intervention in Ukraine to protect separatists in Donbas is surely as legal as NATO's intervention in Serbia to protect separatists in Kosovo. NATO actually bombed Serbia into submission. In view of the above, there is no moral or legal justification for the US and its allies to continue providing weapons to Ukraine. Doing so is escalating the conflict and causing greater destruction, suffering and death.

[Kiril Kirilov]

❤

[49metal]

@Alexandre Mendes I think Chechen independence was a problem in itself--certainly, that was the official line from Moscow. But you are more than right to point out that an independent Chechnya was most unlikely to be a friendly neighbor to Russia and this reality smothered any openness Moscow may have otherwise had to independence (I tend to think there was little, but we may see that differently). I can't fault Moscow for that calculation, I just think it was confirming rather than dispositive.

[Alexandre Mendes]

@Yulia C And Chechnya has a great deal of autonomy under the Russian Federation to point of having its own constitution and allowing for the preservation of its language, religion, culture and traditions. Russia basically wanted the Minsk agreements to fulfilled so that Ukraine would obligated to do the same with the People's Republics of the Donbass, but Ukraine instead decided to even prohibit any measure of autonomy on its own constitution and to take the Donbass by force. Also, it is clear that goverment in Kiev had the ambion to ethnically cleanse the Donbass from its own Russian ethnic population.

[Alexandre Mendes]

​@49metal The problem wasn't even the independence of Chechnya per se, Russia was almost ready to accept the independence of Chechnya if wasn't for the floreshing of terrorism, Chechnya basically became a save haeven for Jihadist from all over the world that threat to spread in the neighor republics of the Caucasus, like Igushetia and Dagestan. That is why Kadyrov changed sides and prefered to have at least autonomy in Chechnya over Chechnya becoming basically the "Caliphate" of the Caucasus. In my view, if Russia didn't retake Chechnya, there would be a Balkanization in the North Caucasus.

[49metal]

@Yulia C If there is a 1997 agreement that says what you claim, then quote it exactly here. In 1994 the Russian Federation in writing promised to "to respect the independence and sovereignty and the existing borders of Ukraine" and to "refrain from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Ukraine." The Russia has formally claimed to annex large parts of the territory of Ukraine. Ukraine is a sovereign nation state. Ukraine's war against separatists in its own lands is it own business--just like Russia's war on separatists in Chechnya was not Ukraine's business. In any case, Putin's propaganda about the plight of the Russian ethnics in Donbas is the same kind of tripe Hitler complained of--Poland oppressing and terrorizing all the poor German minorities--so Hitler was FORCED TO invade Poland and the Russia, etc.. Putin is the same. As for "historical land" You insist Kaliningrad is Germany's historical land. When is Putin going to give Kaliningrad back to Germany? What, Putin just wants to keep Germany's historical land? I don't care that you do not care what new "Nazi poppet gov" of Ukraine thinks or that you think they are not legit government of Ukraine. It doesn't matter what you think. The government in Kiev IS the legitimate government of Ukraine and it is recognized as such by the UN and 95% of the world's governments and even the Russian Federation and Belarus maintained diplomatic relations with the Zelenskyy government before 2022. You and Putin don't get to decide what the legitimate government of Ukraine is. What if next year China decides Russia's government is illegitimate and decides to invade and annex Siberia to liberate its oppressed Asiatic populations. Putin will says the Russian Federation is a sovereign state will internationally recognized borders and China has no authority to declare it's government illegitimate or to invade or annex parts of Russia where Chinese people live even if those people want it to happen. Putin would be right to say that, wouldn't he? And so it is with Ukraine.

[Lažno Ime]

Karl's "Russian friends" that he mentions in 1:17:55 obviously didn't want better living standards for Russians, because it was them that designed politics that Russians today arew calling "economic genocide". It was only after Putin that living standards in Russia have risen. And risen to the level that is much higher than in so called free Ukraine. It is a fact, And Karl knows it. He also knows pretty well that the main slogan on Maidan in 2014.that he says were not anti-Russian was "Whoever doesn't jump is a Moskal (derogatory word for Russdians)" Therefore, he is a liar and a hypocrite.

[California's Last Gasp]

I got a kick out of how he said that they all live outside Russia. Lmao

[Drunk Ancestor]

It's crazy the difference between these immaculate curated spaces from which people discussing and planning war, and the the gopro footage from the very real consequences on the battlefield...

[David Palmieri]

I love the moderator's response to a possible nuclear war: it will be disastrous for the struggle against climate change. She and Bildt really do inspire moral revulsion.

[Oddvard Myrnes]

@K Shen .. 👍

[K Shen]

@Oddvard Myrnes Yes, In order to push investments back to America and save its economy from crisis, igniting the Ukraine War would be American traditional behavior, like Kosovo War against newly established EU dollar system, while it is hard to create conflict or crisis in nowadays most prosperous area, East Asia. China has ignored all reckless provocations from America and didn’t fall into the trap.

[Eric J Smoczynski]

Eric Voegelin? As in “immanentizing the eschaton”? 😉

[January’s Son]

Really. I like how Carl assumes he knows how a nuclear war with Russia will go seeming to think Russia will use tactical nukes in Ukraine, far away from him. Doesn’t he know that Putin has already threatened to nuke London?

[Vichika Huy]

Their opening remarks, put together, feels like John Mearsheimer arguing a Google AI who's still learning to talk about a global issue using a conventional wisdom.

[Kevin MacIntyre]

Interesting from a perspective of an infinite game versus a finite game. Carl clearly sees this as a finite game that you can win versus just continue to play.

[mensrea]

I think that gives too much credit to Bildt. He sits on the board of trustees of the Rand Corporation, which never saw a war it didn't like. He's playing his role. Loved the infinite game reference btw.

[Junior Ota]

Really Good info. Thank you very much!

[Μaya Maya]

Build should have been actor ! He’s narration is a one man’s comedy nothing less, nothing more! I am following him since his Dayton’s-master failure and it is a pleasure seeing him failing again ! Not sure what will be the penalties for those spreading false news ?

[DM]

Bildt has this aura of arrogance...which he always had. When he was a politician in Sweden he seemed completely unable to tell the truth. He tends to make long rants where he avoids the hot stuff and doesn't present a single piece of fact. Now this is hardly unusual for a politician, but there is something about the way he delivers his lines that is pure comedy gold.

[szczawnica1]

Carl Bildt, as some people are, made up his mind already before and nothing and none change it. Blind and deaf until it hits him

[Jimbo Peragin]

Listening to Carl Bildt, you can understand why we are where we are with EU policy. John is doing his best to explain it to him.

[Tempest123]

How do you try to explain to a person and educated at that,who has blinkered brains?

[Klaus Kinski]

@Basil Badra exactly everything you mentioned and not just nato expansion. his only argument was nato expansion and russian army bad.

[Basil Badra]

@Klaus Kinski perhaps you would be kind enough as to explain what your expectations were of what you were hoping John would have spoken about any more than what he explained. Happy new year.

[Klaus Kinski]

@Basil Badra exactly, but john only talks about nato expansion.

[Basil Badra]

@meaningmachine actually your choice of words and description of events/theories/assumptions deserves better accolades for creativity applaud. Granted, Putin or his entourage, are not angels but neither is the west along with the Americans and their self serving foreign policy and bullying attitude. The west in general as led by the US know how to manipulate the media for their benefit regardless of the truth, hence, you can spare yourself the tip toeing maneuvering over making the west holier than thou. In our world today the extreme left and neoconservatives are two faces of the same coin. I am certain that you are very aware of their ideology. Bildt sure does reflect such ideas in his phrases and approach. I never took Mearsheimer’s words as capitulation but rather reasonable reasoning for whatever it is worth to allow the world avoid the catastrophes that we are witnessing. My heart goes to all the Ukrainian and Russian families that had no decision in the loss of their loved ones.

[The Southern African Times]

Brilliant debate!

[Vera Kehrli]

As long as we have politicians like Carl Borg, we will never have peace.

[Ian Lord]

Starts at 9:25. You are welcome 🙂

[Sime]

Carl was really breaking under pressure from John M. at 1:28:00 to 1:32:00. The mediator stopped the debate because of how uncomfortable and all red Carl was, so she stopped the discussion. The build up of arguments that Carl has NO answer to starts at around 1:13:00 and it builds and builds argument after argument up to when the mediator had to stop them because Carl was breaking under pressure. Just look at how his voice changes from 1:28:00 to 1:30:00. John made the following arguments that Carl had no answer to: 1. Carl says that Russian elites disagree with Putin. John M. provides evidence that it is not the case and that most Russian elites DO agree with Putin. Carl had no response to that and did not provide evidence. 2. Carl said that NATO expansion was off the table in 2008, John provided evidence that it was not the case because the US said in june 2021 that they want to incorporate Ukraine into NATO. Carl provided no evidence that opposed this, only empty words. Mediator asks J.M. a question so we don't get a response from Carl, again... ( because he has no evidence!). 3. At 1:30:00 Carl says again that Ukraine was not going to get into NATO because "we had no forces there" like incorporation into NATO "requires" forces in that country. This is not true. None of the countries that became a part of NATO from 1994 to 2020 had NATO forces in that country before becoming members so this is total nonsense. Carl was really breaking down at this point and I am really disappointed that the mediator cut the debate here. That was really unfortunate.

[Sime]

@Mohammad Issam true. Boris Johnson stopped the negotiations.

[TheEmmef]

@Dong Hai Nguyen Thanh: As Johhn said: it does not matter what *we* think about seeing a threat to nationalsecurity, but what the Russians think. And they made that very clear to (then ambassador) Burns, as he reported on 1 February 2008. And it was not just Putin but the whole Kremlin, as burns later wrote in "the backchannel." If a big power sees its security reduced by another country's choice, that violates the OSCE charter. It warrants a good discussion: not ignoring it. If that choice reduces overall security, for example, because of such a perceived threat: that violates the NATO charter for allowing new members. John could have mentioned all of this.

[Mohammad Issam]

Allow me to add, Carl said that it's up to the Ukrainian people to decide what the terms of agreement with Russia should be, and yet in March 2022 when Zelensky wanted to start peace talks with Russia, UK PM at the time Boris Johnson went to Ukraine and told them no negotiations or we cut off all aid and pushed them to continue fighting until the last Ukrainian. Are these the western values Mr. Carl is preaching? I understand what Russia is doing and why they are doing it, I come from a region plagued by western overt and covert wars, bogus revolutions, and supporting dictatorships. Believe me, when I say that western liberal hegemony is not God's gift to mankind and the ultimate civilization as Francis Fukuyama put it, it's a curse on the rest of the world. But there's this thick veil that covers the eyes of the people who live in the west that they cannot see the world for what it is or their governments for what they are, maybe it's caused by arrogance or ignorance I don't know, but when you have an ex-chief diplomat of a western country make light of nuclear war, then I'm afraid there's nothing to stop it from happening, maybe that's the thing that will humble them.

[LeftInBama]

33:00 John Mearsheimer begins 38:00 Tawain

[Trabzon]

Professor John is precise in his statement. Always pleasing to listen to him.

[Trabzon]

@Thomas S. Lee I think he would prefer John humbly. I think your suggestion would be more respectful 🙏

[Thomas S. Lee]

We call him Prof. Marshmellow

[josef kleine jaeger]

This guy Carl has good intentions. But like my dad always sad…”The worst thinks get done with the best intentions “. I’m afraid that’s true here too!

[Greg Allen]

My closing remark: Bildt throughout the debate has blamed Putin for this war and dismissed the threat of NATO and its expansion to Russian security interests. Here are some of the politicians, diplomats, statesmen, etcetera who disagree with his position dating back to the 90s that knew NATO expansion was a trigger for war because it posed a legitimate threat to Russia: 1. George Kennan, America's foreign policy strategist, the architect of the U.S. cold war strategy. As early as 1998 he warned that NATO expansion was a "tragic mistake" that ought to ultimately provoke a "bad reaction from Russia." 2. Henry Kissinger, in 2014. He warned that "to Russia, Ukraine can never be just a foreign country" and that the West therefore needs a policy that is aimed at "reconciliation". He was also adamant that "Ukraine should not join NATO." 3. John Mearsheimer, arguably the leading geopolitical scholar in the US today, in 2015: "The West is leading Ukraine down the primrose path and the end result is that Ukraine is going to get wrecked [...] What we're doing is in fact encouraging that outcome." 4. Jack F. Matlock Jr., US Ambassador to the Soviet Union from 1987-1991, warning in 1997 that NATO expansion was "the most profound strategic blunder, [encouraging] a chain of events that could produce the most serious security threat [...] since the Soviet Union collapsed." 5. Clinton's defense secretary William Perry explained, in his memoir, that to him NATO enlargement is the cause of "the rupture in relations with Russia" and that in 1996 he was so opposed to it that "in the strength of my conviction, I considered resigning." 6. Stephen Cohen, famed scholar of Russian studies, warned in 2014 that "if we move NATO forces toward Russia's borders [...] it's obviously going to militarize the situation [and] Russia will not back off, this is existential." 7. CIA director Bill Burns in 2008: "Ukrainian entry into NATO is the brightest of all redlines for [Russia]" and "I have yet to find anyone who views Ukraine in NATO as anything other than a direct challenge to Russian interests". (He was then Ambassador to Moscow in 2008 when he wrote this memo). He is now director of the CIA. 8. Russian-American journalist Vladimir Pozner, in 2018, stated that: NATO expansion in Ukraine is unacceptable to the Russian, that there has to be a compromise where "Ukraine, guaranteed, will not become a member of NATO." 9. Malcolm Fraser, 22nd prime minister of Australia, warned in 2014 that "the move east [by NATO is] provocative, unwise and a very clear signal to Russia". He adds that this leads to a "difficult and extraordinarily dangerous problem." 10. Former US defense secretary Bob Gates in his 2015 memoirs: "Moving so quickly [to expand NATO] was a mistake. [...] Trying to bring Georgia and Ukraine into NATO was truly overreaching [and] an especially monumental provocation." 11. Pat Buchanan, in his 1999 book A Republic, Not an Empire: "By moving NATO onto Russia's front porch, we have scheduled a twenty-first-century confrontation." 12. In 1997, a group of individuals including former Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara, Senators Daniel Patrick Moynehan, John Warner, Sam Nunn, Bill Bradley, Gary Hart, and former CIA Directors Admiral Stansfield Turner and Robert Gateswrote a letter to Bill Clinton warning the "US led effort to expand NATO is a policy error of historic proportions" and would "foster instability" in Europe. 13. Dmitriy Trenin, director of the Carnegie Moscow Center, a think tank and regional affiliate of the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, expressed in the London Times that “the most potentially destabilizing factor in US-Russian relations, given the level of emotion & neuralgia triggered by Ukraine's quest for NATO membership.” 14. Sir Roderic Lyne, former British ambassador to Russia, warned in 2021 that "[pushing] Ukraine into NATO [...] is stupid on every level." He adds "if you want to start a war with Russia, that's the best way of doing it." 15. Famous economist Jeffrey Sachs in the Financial Times Feb 2022 warned "NATO enlargement is utterly misguided and risky. True friends of Ukraine, and of global peace, should be calling for a US and NATO compromise with Russia." 16. Fiona Hill Senior Director for Europe and Russia of the National Security Council:"We warned [George Bush] that Mr. Putin would view steps to bring Ukraine and Georgia closer to NATO as a provocative move that would likely provoke pre-emptive Russian military action. But ultimately, our warnings weren’t heeded." The United States ignored the warnings, orchestrated the 2014 overthrow of the elected government of Ukraine, and now uses Ukraine as a proxy to fight Russia. Millions have lost their homes creating Europe's greatest refugee crises since WW2, the global economy is suffering hitting the working class and poor the hardest, hundreds of thousands have died and many more than that have been injured. Ukraine is well on its way to losing a generation of its men. It is all because of the United States century-long goal of destroying Russia, something it almost succeeded at under Yeltsin. Putin put a stop to it and the US can never forgive him. The US has propagandized European diplomats into believing Russia is the threat when in fact it is the US and NATO that destabilized Europe and bought this war on as the above comments prove.

[Todd Sullivan]

Great conversation only criticism is a central moderator that doesn't inject opinionated talking points. It makes it appear that their is biases or one side needs assistance to win over the audience. Ty for the content ✌️

[TheEmmef]

I had this professor that wrote a reader that was mandatory. He gave a low grade for my exam, and I asked him why. He said he did not recognise his reader in my answers. Then I explained him how I applied the theory in or underlying his reader to the problems in the examen, but with a different angle, with correct reasoning. He had to agree, and I passed. I passed, but I was unhappy. Because a professor should not only know the theory, but also understand it so well to recognise understanding by others, consequences, different applications and reason about all that. It could have been time pressure. I get the impression that Carld Bildt knows his script. But he does not understand how the theory in it translates to reality. I agree with his dream and I would like it to be true. But we live on the same planet with people that have other dreams. Forcing them to submit to our dream or shattering theirs, will not automatically make ours true. This war is likely a result of that. And that is why we need a healthy blend between liberal order and realism. Looking at this conversation, we are far away from that.

[TheEmmef]

@Богдан Беркут A dream that he himself refuted. You are selectively reading my responses to make a point, not to enhance understanding.

[A N P]

Carl is himself so immersed in fantasy land he could not see the reality. Did he really think that calling the other argument fantasy made his argument stronger?

[ThezealotBob]

This is clearly a debate between realism and denial. Loved it

[jeppen]

@japphan well, he has served as prime minister and foreign minister in a decent democracy, so I guess some people have thought he says sensible things. What's your credentials as critic? Are you a card-carrying leftist, perhaps?

[japphan]

@jeppen Sorry, I wasn't able to fathom that someone actually thinks Bildt has said something sensible ever.

[jeppen]

@japphan please re-read what I wrote. I wrote "DIPLOMATIC realism and academic denial".

[japphan]

@jeppen Nothing academic about Bildt - he has no diploma above high school. He is, however, very good at saying nothing with many words.

[MrRoyalbeers]

@Beto Lee I have no clue what that has to do with the subject.

[World weary traveler]

John Mearsheimer strongly agrees with Admiral Josh Painter: "This business [in Ukraine] will get out of control. It will get out of control, and we'll be lucky to live through it!" He's right too.

[Jarl Varg]

You did not just fucking quote a fictional character from a movie and attribute it to real life.

[Axie Axierastos]

Bildt is an unstomachable human being (at least since the days of ex-Yugoslavia)

[Unreliable Narrator 66]

Note that China is the leader in deploying clean energy of every type, has lower per capita CO2 emissions than many major countries including the USA (is on par with EU) and does much of the manufacturing for Western markets that transfers the emissions from client markets to China. Suffice it to say that combating AGW depends greatly on China, but EU and USA leaders need a reality check on on their framing on this issue, particularly the USA that constantly postures as the "leader" on clean energy but is anything but that.

[Jaydyte]

What 😳🙄

[Vpapale]

1:33:33 he knows the US is truly the only state in a position of deciding whether Russia can be negotiated with at all. We’re currently completely propping up their military

[Ocox]

Mearsheimer wiped the floor with Bildt.

[Clay K]

I am so glad that I made it through the first half hour of this.

[Twn Twrs]

@NZIGNANTI it's not called Stockholm syndrome for nothing...

[chimpskij]

Good for you. I managed about 30 seconds of Bildt before hitting that fast forward. I just can't bear the predictable hypocrisy and selective memory.

[Oron Zachar]

Sadly, it is actually so clear what terms of settlement are reasonable, mostly rolling back to 2015: (1) Crimea recognized as part of Russia; (2) Russian forces retreat from Ukraine to its borders; (3) Ukraine is to be militarily neutral (non Nato), and limited in its military armament (no missiles of any kind); (4) Some kind of autonomy in the Donbass. Is that so controversial? Worth fighting a world war to do different? Worth to cause hunger in the developing world due to sanctions?

[Konstantin Smirnov]

I wonder how eager Mr. Bildt is to escalate the war. I assume that living in a country which maneuvered off of wars during last two centuries somehow gives him the false feeling that death and destruction does not apply to his country in case of war.

[Pike Barkerding]

Hand gesture at 2:19:23 to 2:19:30 pretty much sums it up (and is gif GOLD).

[Edwin Benny]

I really liked the part where Carl stated that he believes Russia is going to lose this war and using the same brain make an argument for Russia going on a march to conquer Europe if they did succeed... Does he think this is some sort of WWIII simulator video game?

[Phillip Chambers]

Great conversation,

[Miguel Angel Trivelloni]

Good job John, and good luck. You can't change people who don't want to change. I never heard from the western press, that this war would never have happened if Ukraine was kept neutral, and the minsk agreements were carried out, much less that the war would end today if that were done. The West never will admit its share of blame in this humanitarian disaster.

[Miguel Angel Trivelloni]

@Jusmeet Singh certainly today is like that.

[Miguel Angel Trivelloni]

@Jusmeet Singh certainly today is like that.

[Firas Bou Hamdan]

@Tianli Bi your sentences are totally unintelligible, I'm not sure what you're even arguing about. Russia not being able to respond like the US to what? And in what ? Cuba wants to be an ally of Russia, it is an ally of Russia right now.Ukraine wants to be an ally of the West. Russia is trying to prevent Ukraine from doing that, Russia was even against Ukraine signing an association agreement with the EU, this isn't just about NATO. Your Cuba example doesn't work.

[Tianli Bi]

@Firas Bou Hamdan You are just basically playing the words, and I don't want to play this game. This is my last reply to you: Ukraine is a de facto ally of Nato countries; Your replies imply Russia could response as the US did AFTER Ukraine becomes an ally of "West", which is rediculous because "ally" means if you attack the country, all the allies will response, like UK and France declared war against Germany once the latter invaded Porland (ironically, that's what's happening now but in a way of agent war). Of course Russia wants to make Ukraine change its idea to join Nato before she joined.

[Firas Bou Hamdan]

@Tianli Bi you didn't highlight anything new. Cuba wants to be an ally of Russia, it is an ally of Russia, while Ukraine wants to be an ally of the West.

[Slawomir Seweryniak]

Excellent Professor Mearsheimer!!

[Blissful Moment]

@Arsalan Ziazie nope

[Arsalan Ziazie]

The mighty “realist” Mearsheimer’s strong talk somewhat gets weakened when faced with more details! No longer does his argument carry water when he is forced to consider reality in details. And the devil is in the detail. For the first time I see Mearsheimer’s argument to weaken. This is a good debate to watch. Thank you!

[SmallScreenTV]

Carl's armchair courage talking about nuclear weapons is a clear sign of how much of an extremist he is.

[PA Akhtar]

John Mearshiemer 10/10 correct.

[OugaBoogaShockwave]

💯💯

[Hegemoner Smith]

Carl Bildt made a successful career as a right-wing politician (don’t be fooled by his membership of the Swedish “Moderate Party” - that was actually a conservative party!). He came from what is described as an old Danish-Swedish-Norwegian “noble” family, which, unsurprisingly, was full of conservatives like Carl. He studied Politics at Stockholm University in the late 60s where he opposed the lefties (of course!), but strangely for a man with so many advantages, failed to graduate. But did this impact his career? Of course not! Conservatives love to promote their own, and they usually rise to the level of their incompetence. We see this clearly here, as Carl’s pitiful arguments are shot to pieces by the brilliant Professor Mearsheimer.

[Rene Macias]

​@William You stole my comment. 👍😂

[William]

"Right wing" in a nordic state is left of Bernie Sanders.

[SleekMouse]

Starts at 9:25

[JC Denton]

Mearshiemer: "This could escalate and we need the great powers to talk" Bildt and host: "So what you are saying is you hate Ukraine?!"

[Rominic Salao]

​@Egil Andreas Aasheim his view in Ukraine, is that they are the small one, they should behave properly to the nearest strong one. Unfortunately for Ukraine it was Russia and not Europe.

[Seal561]

@Thinking man Are you really thinking man?)))

[Seal561]

@Egil Andreas Aasheim And now Ukraine is american colony and a military ram against Russia. The United States is thus solving its task of weakening Europe. And Russians are dying. One thing is not clear, where are the interests of Ukraine here. It loses its territories and people for no reason. Or rather, it is clear, for the interests of the United States.

[Egil Andreas Aasheim]

@Febrian In my opinion, your interpretation is utterly wrong. Ukraine is indeed a chess player (to use your metaphor). NATO isn’t even a player in this game…

[Arnold Baldonado]

The moderator + 1 vs the brilliant professor = two of them walked home and can’t sleep! Lol😅

[maadmoode]

Great debate J.M was basically the hegemon of that stage with all his energy, mind you J.M is 75 God bless. Dude is so real he isn't effected by internal affairs such as getting old.

[Seppo Jussila]

Well, CB is only one and a half years younger than JM. I admire both of them. CB has more experience, though. He has also been a leader in the "fire", negotiating peace and war ... JM hasn´t, but he is a respected, acknowledged scholar.

[steve clapper]

Fear is the mind killer.....

[jenyaza]

John speaks only about political side of the conflict because he is a professional in every sense. He knows what his facts and can prove every single word. Unlike Carl... Let's not forget about economical perspective- American economy needs a nice long war to survive. The American strategists started preparing this war from when USSR collapsed (not without their intervention) and they could access Ukraine at the same time destroying what was left from Soviet economy and buying Soviet plants and factories for peanuts. But for this discussion we need an economists debate. Any recommendations?

[The Adventures of Super Mom]

"...and what you want to understand is..." -- John Mearsheimer at 50m27s, presuming to tell me what I want to understand

[Andrew L]

Great discussion. The question is how to deal with the great power. The answer is: neither take their black mail, nor to humiliate them.

[Real Napster]

@Apjooz They don’t need to fly anywhere when they have missiles that can hit anywhere on earth.

[Apjooz]

@Real Napster They could fly in Ukraine airspace. They could have their strategic bombers under 1000 kilometers from Ukraine border. They could, if they had the muscle and the balls.

[Apjooz]

Russia is a flyweight.

[Richard Thomas]

Great discussion/debate. John was brilliant! The “Swedish Chef”?…meh.

[toomuchadvice]

John Mearsheimer tells the true story.

[Dr. Donny]

Yes. He was evil back in the day, but here he spoke the truth. I guess over time his conscious got to him

[Andrey Yorland]

He is just a scam artist

[Shrimboi]

John makes common sense. Carl makes fantasy sense.

[plekkchand]

@Tom Whitworth1 You're right- Bildt makes no sense at all.

[Tom Whitworth1]

Lol Nope.

[J E]

There is no shortage of blame to go around. NATO, Europe, the USA and Russia all bear responsibility for this mess even if not in equal portions. The portions matter less right now than the fact that war is being waged for no apparent reason. All sides need to call for immediate cease fire, talks and immediate aid to get Ukraine rebuilt. I see fault on all sides here and all sides are keeping it going.

[Sazzbot]

I listened to it all. Was interesting.

[Dragan Miletic]

What I find amazing, is that in these kind of debates is what everyone is ignoring, is the breakup of Yugoslavia and the 10 years of civil war that followed. And, Carl Bildt was playing a major part in it. Like, it never happened. And all the precedents started there.

[Klaus Kinski]

@Pavel Rott do you really just asked me where kosovo is and what event could be linked to it in international politic?

[Pavel Rott]

@Klaus Kinski Do you mean Yugoslavia or someplace else? Nationalism is creation of 19th century and for many nations it didn’t come in force until early 1900s.

[Klaus Kinski]

@Pavel Rott "... national hatreds...." isnt it funny how a country of different ethnics can raise and survive for a couple centuries but then suddenly it collapse under that pressure? its like it was brought up from outside force...remember the tutsis and their massacre?

[kopitiful]

1:55:25 Thanks for that guy from the audience calling Carls statement amercian propaganda. Fully agree.

[HYA]

John: Facts & Logic Carl: Russia lost Carl: Did i mention Russia will lose in 2 weeks Also Carl: Putin don't wear underwear