The Abduction of Lyanna Stark

[@Magmafrost13]

The best answer I've heard for "why Lyanna" is that Rhaegar was expecting his third child to be Visenya, and now here's this very strong, independent, martially capable Lyanna, she definitely would've reminded him of Visenya

[@MissScarletTanager]

I think you're missing one potential part to it being Littlefinger who told Brandon (or told someone who told Brandon). Timeline-wise, it is absolutely possible he runs into Lyanna and possibly Rhaegar at, say, around the Inn at the Crossroads, which is near Harrenhall. He would have had to take the Kingsroad *through* there to get back to the Fingers most likely. We don't know exactly when the duel with Brandon happened, or exactly how healed Petyr was when Hoster yeeted him, just that it was around the same year as the tourney. It could have happened before the tourney or just after, when Brandon was at Riverrun getting ready for the wedding. Littlefinger absolutely could have come across them at the inn by chance just like Catelyn with Tyrion, and sent a letter or something from there as a last ditch way to prevent the wedding of Brandon and Catelyn. And then the resulting fallout he could have watched from afar, knowing *he* caused it in a way, and *that's* what starts him on the spymaster/chaos train.

[@julieloucalcote1368]

I second this theory! My thoughts too

[@DominicanStud101]

This has been one of my favorite episodes of History of Westeros.

[@GeroldGarthcia]

Just a small correction, Attila the Hum didn't die in battle as Aziz stated, he died in bed either from poison, alcohol poisoning, drowning in his own blood from a nosebleed or choking on his own vomit, sources differ.

[@umewhite]

Just going to shortly address a few points. 1. How could a SECRET marriage benefit Lyanna if nobody knows about it? Everybody should know about it for her to entertain any hope of escaping her betrothal. I agree it wouldn’t have helped Rhaegar, as a Great Bastard-like third head of the Dragon could have helped his son Aegon just as well as a true born. Even better, I should say, because it wouldn’t have angered Dorne so much if even at all, their culture considered. This marriage does not benefit any of them at all. Probably it is just done so the old gods to witness they are together now, and willingly for no better words. Probably the marriage is more connected to the prophecy part than any other thing. Maybe he could have pulled off the polygamy thing, but he would have had a much better chance if he also had… dragons. As things are, the insult still stands. No paramount lord would want their daughter with that stain on her. Mistress or second wife is the same when almost nobody accepts polygamy. There would have been talks… many talks about the legitimacy of the child. 2. As far as I know. the age of majority is 16 in Westeros. In the world of Westeros she is seen as a woman grown, soon to be married. In world, her husband could have been either young or old, but clearly, SHE was considered ready for marriage. If the bride is a child, it does not really matter who she marries. What matters is that she should be let alone until she is grown up. But these families do not care about mental age, or age of consent, they care if people can breed or not. The familes do the thinking. It happened to Rhaegar too for that matter, 19-20 is psychologically too young to be a father. Even if the families do care, some still do it because of political reasons. The Starks for example accept the betrothal but they seem to have postponed the marriage a bit. Now that she is 16, probably it would be imminent. Remember how Sansa felt when her she had her first moonblood? Could Lyanna feel the same about turning 16? Absolutely, I agree with you that Rhaegar should have taken her back to her family when he found her running away, because that would be his duty as a knight, but not because he would have seen her as a defenseless child. Nobody in story thinks of her that way, nobody. If she really was the Knight of the Laughing tree, and Rhaegar knows of that too, then he certainly wouldn’t have thought of her as defenseless. Maybe taking her back would even help Rhaegar gain some ground both with the Starks and the Baratheons, but nope… they run away together. Their going away must have been decided by both, and I also seriously doubt that prophecy was the only reason. We think we know she ran from her betrothal, and we suspect why she was in the Riverlands, but why was he there? We simply do not know. I find it very unlikely they corresponded by raven to plan this, or that they decided at Harrenhall that they would be off a few months later. Could there even be a hope that nobody would trash that, that nothing would happen to stop it. Would anyone in her family let him talk to her after the fiasco of the crowning at the tourney even if he tried? Could they have planned to run away together sometime before, because if they knew each-other then, they probably had maximum a few days acquaintance. Would any sane person do that? 3. Many people in the Fandom complain that everybody who knew Rhaegar seems to like him and how that is not ok. I do not agree, simply because it is in the human nature to idealize the past and remember mostly good things about the dead. I do not mean here the simply horrible people, but the people that were generally alright. When we lose a friend or a grandparent, we do not remember all the misunderstandings, we tend to remember all the times we connected, the good times rather than the bad. At any rate, because we seem generally good opinions of him we tend to ignore that at least his house had numerous enemies who would have played hard his weakness towards Lyanna. After a lifetime of being cautious, he just plainly showed his feelings for all the world to see. Even if we entertain the opinion that there were no feelings, he still gave his enemies a great good opening. We know Varys at least didn’t want Aeris off the throne and he filled his head about how Rhaegar was a betrayer, and maybe there are others. 4. Both Rhaegar and Lyanna clearly had regrets about what they did, even if they believed in prophecies very strongly. We know how strongly Melisandre believes, even sees them in her flames, but she also knows they can be easily misinterpreted. I doubt Rhaegar or Lyanna would be more convinced they are right. We know that Rhaegar changed his mind at least once. They undoubtably had regrets about this whole thing. I am convinced that the supernatural was involved, but what really bothers me that this story would really work just as well even if there was no prophecy involved. I really wonder how much was prophecy and how much other things. For example, Lyanna could have found out that some lords were conspiring about taking the throne away from the Targaryen dynasty and wanted to warn Rhaegar. I do think she was in love or had a crush him after the tourney, and as we can read in the books, she died with roses in her hands in a room full of roses, and knowing how he died, he also seems to have loved her too. The love was not the thing they may have regretted. Maybe also Rhaegar knew there was a conspiracy going on and that is why he was on a journey. As we cannot tell who he talked to, they probably were very loyal allies that did not find it wise to talk about it later. They are both young people, young people who have been denied love all their lives too. Finding out how it would feel to be with someone you love may seem really temping, prophecy or not. 5. One of the greatest mystery to me is of course, what happened at the TOJ? How come all these people who are still alive are so silent about it. Just to protect Rhaegar’s kid? Were they all in with the prophecy? Would prophecy be enough to convince all these people? I mean house Dayne being so accepting of Ned after everything, Ashara going missing (her body being never found), Howland Reed wherever that one is, Benjen wherever he may be. Was it just guilt? 6. As a last note in this extremely long comment is the speculation about why didn’t he leave the tower sooner. Did he not know what was happening? Were they purposely misinformed? There are many who speculated on this, but what I wish to say is that very few mention his previous experience about pregnancies. He knows about Elia, he knows pregnancies may kill women. If he loved Lyanna he would have been afraid to leave her. We know that in the end, childbirth did kill Lyanna, but we do not know how her pregnancy went. Was she alright during it, or there were real reasons to worry? I think this is also something that should be considered.

[@austinhodges8982]

About your second point: Lyanna was 16 when she died, not when she was abducted. Ned doesn't got to the tower of joy until the very end of the rebellion, and the war lasts roughly a year. Depending on how close her abduction was to the tourney at Harrenhal, she would have been either 15 (or possibly 14, depending on the exact month). Also, notably, Lyanna was not considered a "woman grown"- at least not by Ned, who calls her a "child-woman" in his first chapter and Cersei refers to her as little shortly afterward in Bran II. 16 is definitely the age of majority for boys in ASOIAF but girls seem to maintain their childhood (or some perception of it by others) for longer.

[@umewhite]

@@austinhodges8982 I have read many theories regarding Lyanna’s age at the tourney, and at the “abduction time”. Some say 14 at the tourney others at 15. Some add a few months between the events, others add almost a year. Also, it is unclear how much time exactly passes between this tourney and her disappearance. Clearly, as long as we do not have an official date of her birth and a clear timeline for Robert’s Rebellion, this will be forever a debate. Plus, it also depends a lot of human perception: say someone is 14 years and 8 months old. Would you say they are 14, or 15? Some would say the first, and others the second. I used the age of 16 because that seems the most probable to me, but I do not claim I am absolutely correct in this. I may be wrong. Yes, 16 is the age of majority for men in Westeros, but you say the girls stay children longer. Where did you find this information? To me, the girls stay children in Westeros until the point where they “flower”. After this moment, they are considered women, ready for marriage and children. Please understand, I do not mean that they are, but what that society considers them to be. Still, and maybe that is what you meant, not all men consider girls of 13 as attractive women, even if they are flowered. I absolutely agree to this. Vyseris doubts Drogo would feel attracted to Daenerys because she is not so well developed; Tyrion chose not to sleep with Sansa. At 14-15, I would say Lyanna is flowered. Most other women in story are by this time, and Lyanna is not considered sickly by any account to suspect her not to be. So, I would say she is flowered and betrothed, and soon to be married. How soon? We do not know. I am also aware of Ned’s, and Cersei’s thinking, and frankly I do not know what Ned means by a “child-woman”. Was she a woman because she flowered but still acts like a child, like, playing with wooden swords, and so on instead of taking more womanly pursuits, or he means that she is flowered but is still skinny and does not seem to have been so physically developed. Cersei’s thinking clearly is probably more physically judgmental, and she would be of any girl that is not so emancipated as herself. Just think about what Cersei’s pursuits were at that age. Please understand that I, by no means claim to hold the truth regarding these events. I, just like everyone else, have formed a theory. I am also aware that there are many other good theories out there that are very different than mine. EDIT: since writing this, i remembered something. And that is the fact that in 113 AC, Rhaenyra took possession of Dragonstone when she turned 16. It seems to sustain the idea that girls also, reach their majority at 16, not only boys. Still, if you gave evidence that say otherwise, please let me know. Thank you.

[@curtiswfranks]

Rhaegar after their wedding: "I know a place."

[@curtiswfranks]

Sansa lost her wolf in the Riverlands too. Triple parallel between Stark girls.

[@jakevw9856]

Bravo guys, this episode was fantastic

[@Valkanna.Nublet]

I think you're making things far too complicated when discussing the theory that Littlefinger told the Starks Lyanna was kidnapped. Firstly, his injuries are irrelevant. He doesn't need to be physically well to see and talk. After the duel Hoster wants LF gone. This means that LF is on the road travelling at the time Lyanna goes missing. Where's he heading? He's going home of course, back to the Vale. Now, as pointed out he is injured, so he's going to be travelling slowly and taking long breaks. But he can't stay with any lord, they wouldn't want to risk insulting the Tullys, so he'd be staying at inns. So we have a perfectly understandable situation where LF is still in the area for a while, yet not near any place of note. (well, except maybe if the inn is particularly famous like the Inn of the Crossroads) Meanwhile Lyanna is still in that general area, maybe at Harrenhall, maybe at Riverrun waiting for the marriage, or travelling around between them. If we assume that her going away with Rhaegar was mutual, then they would need some place to meet up. They couldn't use any Lord's place because they wouldn't want to be seen, so they would use some other place, and it would have to be some place known to both and easy to find, like a notable inn (maybe even THE notable Inn of the Crossroads) So we have both Littlefinger and the rendezvous of Lyanna and Rhaegar in the same general area at the same time. It's no stretch at all to think that they might've chosen the exact same place, meaning that LF got to see what happened. LF wouldn't need spies and plans, as pointed out this was before he had all that anyway, all he'd need is good luck with being at the right place and the right time, something that happens all the time in fiction. Then Brandon would obviously be searching in that area for Lyanna, because he'd be searching in the general area she went missing. So again, not a stretch to think that LF was still there, it would be within a day or two. And then LF has an idea, no plan just an instant reaction because he wanted revenge on Brandon. So LF told Bradon that he saw Rhaegor kidnap Lyanna, knowing from experience that Brandon was hot-headed and would run off and do something uncontrolled. Doubtful he knew what, probably only expecting a duel between Brandon and Rhaegar in which Brandon would be killed. But then it all lead to war and LF found himself on the winning side, as part of the Vale, and with a lover married to the Lord of the Vale, perfect position to gain him more power. The one thing we're missing from Littlefinger's story is an inciting incident, the thing that made him learn that deceit and manipulation was a method of gaining power. We know what power he gained, but not why he chose sneakiness and not honourable behaviour. Him lying out of pure anger and jealousy, and causing a war that ended up shaking up the politics of the whole country, is just the sort of event that would teach him that lying and manipulation leads to power.

[@GeekFurious]

Such a good episode.

[@JsHolgersson]

As always you spoil us with awesomeness HoW! A thousand thanks and one ^^ Much love ❤

[@curtiswfranks]

The "wedding Isle of Faces" pun is one of the best that I have ever heard.

[@mattries37315]

As to where all the Starks were after the tournament, here are my thoughts: Rickard: As Robert from In Deep Geek said in a recent video about Starks and Winterfell, Lord Rickard wasn't at the Harrenhal while all the Stark children were because "There Must Be A Stark in Winterfell". Ned: As we know from the books, Ned was in the Vale with Robert because they probably left for there with either Jon Arryn or other Valemen. Benjen: With Ned in the Vale, Brandon in the dungeons, and Lyanna missing. Benjen had to be the Stark in Winterfell when Rickard left for King's Landing thus Benjen had made his way to the North either by himself with other Northmen and Stark retainers OR Brandon escorted him up to Moat Cailin before heading back south towards Riverrun. However I think that when Rhaegar discovered Lyanna as the Knight of the Laughing Tree, both Howland and Benjen were helping take off the armor or he heard how Howland had been attacked by the squires of the three defeated knights then had him followed before the confrontation with Lyanna and Benjen happened to be there. Brandon: If he did not escort Benjen back up North then he and his friends stayed in the Riverlands, probably going from one castle to another before the wedding at Riverrun. Lyanna: The easiest place for her to have stated after the tourney would have been Harrenhal, but chances are the Whents would have been sure to keep an eye on the only daughter of the Lord Paramount of the North before she went to their niece's wedding to her brother. I think there is one place that Lyanna could have gone so she had to travel to Riverrun for the wedding, only to slip off to Harrenhal. I think she went to the only Old Gods worshippers in the area, the Blackwoods and Raventree Hall. Once it was time to head to Riverrun, Lyanna and Howland Reed slip off to Harrenhal. Once in the Whents territory, the presence of the Prince of Dragonstone is going to be known and he'll be see with Lyanna. Howland then gets them to the Isle of Faces and off to the Tower. Also who told Brandon? It was Lysa to ruin her sister's wedding after her betrothed beat up the man she loved. And Attila didn't die in battle, he died while drunk during his latest marriage celebrations (he had a lot of wives and Honoria would have been prime) due to a nosebleed that he choked on while in a stupor OR a internal bleeding due to a burst vein. OR if Roman historical propaganda written 80 years later is to be believed, said bride he was celebrating marrying assassinated in bed with a knife.

[@jesusyvictoria]

Great postcad. I think you are assuming that Rhaegar considered Aegon the prince that was promised and the child with Lyanna was only important to make up the numbers. This is of course based on the vision that Danny had, but between Rhaegar said those words about Aegon and he run off with Lyanna lot of things may have changed. He may have had more information about the prophecy or other important facts from the Isle of Faces, information that Howland Reed may have passed to Lyanna. I don't think Rhaegar chose Lyanna randomly, he knew that the Prince that was promised would have the Song of Ice and Fire, so a child between a Stark and a Targaryen doesn't seem random at all. I think Rhaegar was privy to new information since the vision of Danny until he decided to 'elope' with Lyanna, and at that moment he would have thought that his child with Lyanna would have been the Prince that was Promised instead of Aegon. My thought is that Howland Reed was summoned to the Isle of Faces by Bloodraven (in a similar way that Jogen Reed was summoned first to Winterfell and then Beyond the Wall), and his main mission was make to sure that the prince that was promised, Azor Ahai or however Bloodraven considers him, was born from the union between Rhaegar and Lyanna, as he would be key on the fight against the others.

[@julieloucalcote1368]

Yes! This right here! These are along my same thoughts too. Glad I didn’t have to type it all out so I am very very grateful to you for that. Howland played a MUCH bigger role in getting R and L together.

[@The_Doom_Abides]

So where did Rhaegar get his current marriage annulled to make his marriage to Lyanna legit?

[@fanita91]

If circe has to escape King's Landing on lady Lyanna ship that be pick writing.

[@teddyg3364]

Rhaegar is just Baelor the blessed with a sword

[@ApplesandDragons]

I'll tell you the answers if you come on my show.

[@t-rexcellentreviews1663]

We’ve seen time and time again that Targaeryen’s are people who are not known for their impulse control when it comes to their desires, when they see something they want, they go after it, sometimes out of desire, sometimes out of destiny, sometimes out of both, but regardless, when a Targaryen truly wants something, they go after it and dam the consequences, because as far as they are concerned, there are none.

[@Holly_Fae]

If Ashara Dayne was inpregnated by Aeries against her will, Her brother Arthur Dayne wouldn't eb able to do anything about it. If she turned to Ned, and Ashara is the fisherman's daughter, Arthur may have interpreted her running off with Ned as an abduction. So when they came across Lyanna they could have abducted her to make an exchange.

[@Huhbroski]

I think craster orchestrated the red wedding