The Anti-Dragon Maester Conspiracy P1 (House of the Dragon)

Did the maesters really help provoke the Dance of the Dragons Targaryen Civil War as way of killing off the dragons, and will this potential conspiracy plot-line be included in House of the Dragon? Apostate Archmaester Marwin the Mage directly accused the Maesters of this dastardly conspiracy in A Feast for Crows, so let's investigate in the first of 2 videos.
PART 2 IS RIGHT HERE: • Anti-Dragon Maester Co...
🜏 Check out my new channel: / mythicconcepts
🜏 One-time donation to support: www.paypal.me/...
🜏 Join our Patreon: / lucifermeanslightbringer
🜏 All things Mythical Astronomy: lucifermeansli...
🜏 Teeshirts & Merch: teespring.com/...
House of the Dragon playlist: • House of the Dragon!
Southron Ambitions Theory by Stefan Sasse: asoiafuniversi...
More Conspiracies!!!
The Doom Was an Inside Job: • The Doom Was An Inside...
The Doom Was An Abolition: • The Doom was an Abolit...
Weirwood Paste is People! • Weirwood Paste is Peop...

[@GreyWasteTim]

Throughout the entirety of Fire & Blood, the Hightowers are never presented in a bad light. The words used to describe their actions, even the most deplorable, are chosen very carefully. Almost as if the maester writing it doesn't want to potentially upset the Citadel's biggest patron cash source.

[@justinjohnson3645]

Is fire and blood really narrated or “written” by a maester? And if so are there any other books in the series that are?

[@endor8witch]

@@justinjohnson3645 yes the other important books: "Pink goo saga" and the "Salted fisherman's wife". very skewed towards the hightowers

[@justinjohnson3645]

nice

[@Michael-bn1oi]

​@@justinjohnson3645 None of the other books published in real life are, if that's what you are asking. Just Fire & Blood and World of Ice and Fire

[@spideregg]

Something just occurred to me. Did George choose the word Dance just as an alliteration, or is he implying that they are dancing to someone's tune?

[@DavidLightbringer]

oh hey now that's good

[@celadona5084]

Oh! Now THAT has me thinking!

[@swaggerdagger5168]

@spider egg @@DavidLightbringer saw this comment before going on a walk late last night and starting my listening on ‘The Dying of the Dragons’ chapter in F & B. Very first paragraph of the chapter includes: “To characterize the dark, turbulent, bloody doings of this period as a ‘dance’ strikes us as grotesquely inappropriate. No doubt the phrase originated with some singer. ‘The Dying of the Dragons’ would be altogether more fitting, but tradition, time, and *Grand Maester Munken have burned the more poetic usage into the pages of history, so we must dance along with the rest.*” They’re rubbing it in our goddamn faces, man.

[@AnnabelTheGoldsmith]

:O 🤯

[@IOU88]

Epic theory 😎

[@kristi4113]

One thing I always noticed when going through the Targaryen Kings in World of Ice and Fire…the Maesters seemed to be responsible for keeping Aegon III afraid of his own shadow, reminding him what happened to his mother at every chance. They also weren’t happy when his brother Viserys came back to Westeros and he alone gave his big brother confidence to be a King.

[@kb4903]

I do think they poisoned the eggs after the dance. They used Aegons hatred to remove them.

[@wurstgitarre]

Again and again I freeze in awe of George's genius. The way he creates room for speculation just by letting a few supporting characters say things that only seem significant at second glance is simply masterful and second to none. I'm curious to see what is gonna be confirmed in the series and what is not 👌

[@DavidLightbringer]

it's truly master level, no doubt. and fruitful grounds for theorizing!

[@peterwindhorst5775]

They could have fixed the vote for the election at Harenhall. Stalin was reported to have said - " Those who count the votes decide everything." And who counted the votes at Harenhall? The maesters did.

[@thalmoragent9344]

I mean, be honest though, there weren't that many people who disagreed with Baelon being chosen over Rhaenys so, is it hard to believe that the votes were genuinely the actual account.

[@derekhammond6975]

I have severe insomnia. Its 605 am and i havent slept at all but seeing this video gave me a huge mental boost. One of my fav topics in asoiaf.

[@DavidLightbringer]

haha yeah I'm just going to be now lol. best of luck with that my friend

[@taylorgayhart9497]

Ugh insomnia is the WORST!!! Im sorry you’re dealing with it, I know your pain and I hope your situation improves!!!

[@KrzysztofNieweglowski]

I've got pretty hard insomnia episode few years ago and I loved to binge listen to LML during these slepless nights. Even though I didnt fall asleep I was able to relax with LML videos in some weird ASOIF meditation mode hahaha

[@vancewashington3044]

Good luck with the insomnia! Love

[@DavidLightbringer]

dude, Dinesh D'Souza is a total fraud and con artist. There was no election fraud. This is Trump's big lie, and it's been refuted in courts, by reporting, you name it. They tried to prove fraud in so many states, with total control of the sec state office, and found nothing they could ever prove. Seriously D'Souza is one of the most obvious con artists on the right. You gotta do better than falling for his crap

[@jvonhousen3055]

"History is a set of lies agreed upon." "We will write that history." -The Maesters (probably)

[@montezmingo8726]

I love the live streams and longer videos, but this is a lot more digestible. Thanks for the content.

[@made-line7627]

Love DL theory videos 🐉

[@sibowang8826]

If Marwyn says it happened, it happened. I don't make the rules. Side note, I consider Marwyn along with Old Nan as ASOIAF equivalents to Septon Barth, in that everything they say is actually right, even though we might not always understand what they're really saying.

[@DavidLightbringer]

100%. There’s at least some truth to whatever they say

[@SingingSealRiana]

I think septon barth is pretty much always right. Old nan is pretty much right in her own way and marwyn . . . is defficult, he has good points but he purposefly talks a lot of bs inbetween, so he does not get targeted as dangerous. He is not o the same level, but he difinitly knowes some stuff.

[@otaviodelucca3573]

The thing is, the Hightowers use the Maester for their benefit, its historical. When Aegon the First arrived at Oldtown, the Hightowers decided to bend to knee, but they worked in silence to get their revenge. Dragon is against the logic of power of knowledge, which the Hightowers have always had in Westeros. After the Dragons were dead, knowledge and contacts became the true power once more.

[@DewarSon]

"YES, the damned Maester!... Take your filthy hands off of me!... It was the damnedable MAESTERS!!!" 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🔥

[@lordofthehouseofstormcrows8615]

"Ice spiders as big as hounds!!" Keep up the great work Nan. lololol

[@Glamuel]

I def believe this theory! Hoping that HoTD will give us a more objective history of the Dance than Fire & Blood, and show us what those grey rats were really up to. 👀

[@titusdaniel3962]

"This time Rhaenyra did not laugh " that line sent chills down my spine. Unrelated but Joffery's line of "They're going to kill Tyraxes" is so sad. If my bonded beast was in the pit there's no way in hell i would just sit by in Maegor's holdfast and let that happen Rhaenyra was really stupid for letting the dragons die; I mean her damn dragon was in the Red Keep. Pisses me off everytime i think about it. She wanted her throne so badly she didn't defend it herself🤦🏽‍♂️. If it was Aemond or Aegon, hell or any other Targeryan, they wouldn't hesitate to defend their family heritage.

[@DavidLightbringer]

That could have been a real mess too - angry dragon lord defends the dragonpit against thousands of insane people. Yeah. Another field of fire, but in Flea Bottom

[@titusdaniel3962]

@@DavidLightbringer they all deserved to burn especially that cursed Shepherd

[@DavidbarZeus1]

@@KZbinChannel-dk5xv No, there's no problem with monarchy in and of itself, it's who the monarch is that's trouble

[@DavidbarZeus1]

@@KZbinChannel-dk5xv Sorry, but we must agree to disagree on this. Even in GOT/ASOIF, there have been many good kings, let alone real history. Power doesn’t actually corrupt a person, it reveals who they truly are.

[@DavidbarZeus1]

@@KZbinChannel-dk5xv Democracy, pure democracy at least, is utterly horrible. A republic is better, but the best form of government would be a parliamentary monarchy.

[@GeroldGarthcia]

One of the reasons I'm so excited for fire and blood part 2 is hoping to find out what happened to Morning and the remaining Targ dragons. The post- dance dragon deaths are the most SUS and world of ice and fire's Targ section didn't cover it really. I love your point about the world book and fire and blood being Master propaganda though. It's important to read them as such.

[@ursaber]

Indeed. I want to know what happened to the last two dragonriders, Rhaena and Nettles. Rhaena went on to have six daughters with a Hightower but we do not know if she died before or after her dragon. Also want to know the full history of the reigns of the dragon kings. Aegon III, Daeron I, Aegon IV's in particular. And more detail into the Blackfyres and other great bastards.

[@sophiawilson8696]

They were poison, also the eggs they lay were poison also.

[@ursaber]

@@sophiawilson8696 how does one poison dragons and dragon eggs?

[@made-line7627]

@@ursaber I'm very pumped to read about Aegon the Unworthy

[@DavidLightbringer]

that's what I want to know, what could possibly poison a dragon?

[@sms1511]

Nan’s cameo at the start is brilliant 😂

[@SingingSealRiana]

love her so much ^^

[@DavidLightbringer]

she's handy to have around, and her voice work rates are surprisingly affordable

[@melissablackwood]

It was almost like a Monty Python sketch starring Old Nan and Archmaester Keyser Söze. 🐀

[@CrimsonTemplar2]

That intro was delightful. I half expected Graham Chapman to come in, dressed in a Royal Army uniform, and declare the whole thing “too silly”.

[@DavidLightbringer]

Haha that’s right where all my humor comes from all right

[@marvinsaintpreux4468]

I agree with you that the maesters are conspiring against the Targaryens but I think it started on the day Aegon landed. It was them along with the Hightower’s who convinced the high gardens to go fight knowing they would lose. That’s why no Hightower’s fought. They then gave Maegor a sterile broad to limit the number of kids that had Targaryen blood. Then after Jaehaerys took away the faith militants, they plotted with his own kids , ( two in the faith and Saera who is Alyssa Hightower’s mother) to take over the Targaryens. Imagine if Maegor would of married a Velaryon daughter, ( Freind & cuz to the queen in the west) how many more dragons would exist. I think they have been the ones who tried to stir the ruler ship away from good rulers like Aemon who they killed on Tarth, and his line who were all trained to rule, to Killing Baelon sister wife after her second son because if she had more kids then it would have been a Targaryen filled age. To making sure Daemon didn’t get the throne, which is why I think they killed his father cause he knew that to rule you had to ride and Daemon rode a dragon so why not skip over Visaerys. Even the fights between Visaerys and Daemon was them. The citadel and the Hightower’s are one and the same that’s the Hightower’s bastard kingdom filled with their assassins

[@jacksparrow9227]

Why kill Baelon if they favored him?

[@espalier]

ohhhh, Maegor wasn't infertile, his women's pregnancies were messed with.

[@marwanali4878]

​@@jacksparrow9227 the Targaryen rule under him was prosperous. He basically ruled the realm during Jaehaerys' ending reign. He was a wild child so they thought he'd be like Daemon or Aegon IV but turns out he was just like Aemon thus making the reign better rather than worse

[@marvinsaintpreux4468]

@@jacksparrow9227 the Maesters killed him because he may have wanted to put Daemon on the throne since he was a dragon rider

[@marvinsaintpreux4468]

@@espalier exactly they wanted to make sure they limited the number of dragons and riders. But his first wife was barren.

[@Nubin2000]

I wonder if the Ancient Valyrian Dragonlord families were masters of blood magic probably passed down from Asshai and Empire of the Dawn. It would be cool if they transform into a half-human | dragon creature of war or even warg into their dragons. Given that Targaryen sometimes is born looking like a baby wingless dragon.

[@DavidLightbringer]

the video you want to watch is "Dracomorph!" Come back and thank me later after you're thoroughly grossed out! kzbin.info/www/bejne/h3K7l4eInpKDnM0

[@Henrique-Santos]

The Maesters should praise Garth and chill out with all that conspiracy

[@DavidLightbringer]

100%

[@SmoteMyRuin]

This 🤘🤘🔥🔥🖤🖤🤣🤣

[@rejoyy]

Hahaha! That intro skit was very well done.

[@isabellamego5321]

Well, who's the rat natural enemy? Of course, a cat! And who's the most prominent cat in asoiaf ( besides Cat)? Balerion, the black cat, who's named after the most badass dragon ever

[@user-ln7jw2qn6h]

Excellent video LML

[@mrittikmukherjee1347]

This theory links with the Targaryen genetics theory pretty well

[@BubbleheadBoy]

YEEESSS. Oldtown Conspiracies! Down with the Dragonspawn!

[@nikdik154]

Finally a video drops when I don't have to sleep. Thank you, David.

[@sipholukhele290]

Happy for the return of shorter videos lately. Great video, Dave... as usual 👏

[@stevenclayton4624]

Awesome!! I needed something to listen to while I work today.

[@j.asmith7489]

I like how you mention Otto and the Grand Maester as being strong influences on Viserys I small council. It goes beyond that too. Beesbury is also on the small council and they are Hightower vassals. I’m sure there are other green aligned small council members before they decide to crown Aegon. Another thing is the prophecy during the conquest where the Hightower’s can’t “directly” oppose the Targaryens or old town will burn. What better way to get around this than by organize a civil war. They were also not all that involved in Robert’s Rebellion if memory serves me right.

[@DavidLightbringer]

Oh that prophecy. Thanks for reminding me about that

[@wolfsbanealphas617]

@@DavidLightbringer euron will fulfill it indirectly with all the dragon and magic symbolism

[@joeljuarez8620]

If I’m not mistaken, in one of the recent episodes of HOTD, Rhaenyra expresses dislike for the Maesters when Alicent says that the Maesters were taking care of her Dad or something like that. I think she has a gut feeling that they have not helped her Dad but instead sped up his demise. Because the sooner King Viserys was out the picture the sooner the Dance would begin

[@DavidLightbringer]

First!

[@staytuned2L337]

Just dropped the kidlets off at school and lookin like a weirdo cackling in the car 😂

[@lordofthehouseofstormcrows8615]

you can't be first.. I declare this 1st made by creator under protest. After review, it is legal just not cool...😅 You're great bruddah

[@lizardbreathh]

🤣

[@girlnettles]

Let’s goooooo!!!!

[@keelobrown4991]

I love that preston jacobs years said that it’s entirely possible that Boros’s maester could have purposefully misread rhaenryas letter to invoke his fury and cause him to further side with the greens. Then the show comes out and they make a point see that the letter was freshly unopened say luke hadnt read it and the maester only whispers its contents to boros’s ear whilst he himself doesn’t even peek at it. Meaning we the audience, luke and boros have no idea what the letter actually said and only the maester knew… When i saw the scene happen i instantly thought “preston… you SOB”

[@downtown_clownybrown]

these new a.m. streams are greatly enhancing my pre-work garth worship

[@DavidLightbringer]

[@taterflakes7560]

The intro is gold! Awesome! Back to watching lol

[@SmoteMyRuin]

Omgggg thank u LML!! a perfect way to start my happy hump day. 🤘🖤🔥

[@vanessaprincesssa]

This is my #2 favourite ASOIAF theory! THANK YOU LML this was exquisite! 🔥🔥🔥🔥 My #1 favourite theory is also connected to the Maester conspiracy, and it’s also one I think I heard from you, it’s “The Mad King was not mad”. Already gave a like before watching the video, leaving a comment for the algorithm 😉😉

[@AliciaMahamud]

I still have a "little bit" of a grudge against those filthy grey rats because of the Brandon Stark thing, you know...

[@SingingSealRiana]

we know, you aint subtil ^^

[@xavier84623]

As much as I hate the maesters for getting rid of magic, on the other hand the systems of magical power being passed down through blood lines has kept the world locked in feudalism for like ten thousand years.

[@Mezcaudill]

This makes me think of how Pycelle was the one that convinced the king to open the gates for Tywin who then sacked the city. Ultimately leading to the kings demise.

[@walkerjm911]

So stoked for this show and for the LML analysis to come.

[@TB-yz5bk]

I love your content! Thank you!

[@Magali_theRecordKeeper]

Omg, i will never get tired of your Old Nan voice (also, great intro and great video as usual!)

[@andyfletchxr]

Great video! you’re quickly becoming one of my favorite ASOIAF creators on youtube. Definitely the most knowledgeable creator i’ve seen and I’ve been inspired to read fire and blood a second time. thank you!

[@rawwwry]

I'm a fairly new subscriber and can I just say I truly love the content you put out there. It's so refreshing to see ASOIAF fans still engage with the content positively and create new content for others. Kudos to you for all the hard work!! As a fan of myths and archetypes/tropes since I was but a wee child, I love how you translate those ideas onto GRRM's world. It must be such long time of research and work and I truly appreciate it. I'm sad I seem to almost always miss your live streams (European here) but I make a point of waching the replays as soon as I can. Keep doing the work, we are all waiting together for HoD and TWOW!

[@DavidLightbringer]

Thanks so much! I really appreciate your comments. And yes I wouldn't even say I've done a ton of research as I've let George guide me through an education in myth and storywriting... I've learned so darn much and I'm happy to pass on some of it anyone else.

[@melissablackwood]

Maesters: Knowledge is power. Targaryens: Power is power. Maesters: Adjust strategy.

[@FieryReborn]

Loving the new HOTD vids

[@smpk9667]

Really loving the fun and joking tone in this video.

[@ZendikarMage42750]

Fantastic cold open. Always appreciate it when Old Nan lends her wisdom to a video, heh heh

[@KonnyKhaos]

You’re the man, Mr. Lightbringer.

[@jennifertomaiolo]

The beginning was so silly, loved it!

[@KaraSTheMedianaut]

Zechaerys The Thunderer (Bane of the White Wolf and the last dragon hero) approves this message.

[@DavidLightbringer]

[@rivermistfae]

🎶 Mah name is Faegon 🎶 😆 gets me every time 😜

[@DavidLightbringer]

..I’M CARRYIN BLACK STEEL!

[@j.gregoryhenderson6032]

Oh yes sir let's go!!! After work and gym viewing on deck!!!

[@karentargaryen7959]

Old Nan knows all!!

[@therunningman_]

Compact and fun! I love both short and long vids

[@amandaofhouserobinson6707]

That start was so funny!! Was totally cracking up!! Lmfao 😅🤣😂😅🤣😂 thankyou, I needed a good laugh!

[@joemckeown4612]

I knew it! I had a feeling your channel would blow up this year and I was right. Everything I look you seem to have at least 500-1000 new subs. The content speaks for its self. Very happy for you David

[@DavidLightbringer]

It sure is Joe thanks for believing in me buddy

[@MrEKnight]

Loooooved the intro and the new editing work. Crushing it, duderz! 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻

[@DavidLightbringer]

Thanks so much!!

[@Sirlancelot-]

Dang to become a maester sounds really sus and scary if your trying to be a good one. Kind of scared for sam now😳

[@naswiipp]

I love the intro!!! Old Nan speaks the truth!

[@owleyes07]

Excellent 😊 can't wait for part 2

[@zenguru79]

Thanks!

[@moiraferreira]

Nice topic

[@LSK1]

Good morning!!! ☄️☄️☄️☄️

[@xavier84623]

Dude there is so much rat imagery in house of the dragon. They say at one point “like rats coming to feast on my corpse” or something, so they imply it could just relate to people power grabbing as the king dies, but now that I think about it maybe they were always grey rats and there could be a double meaning.

[@xavier84623]

Seriously it’s like the departed up in the dragon house, like half the scenes end on a grey rat 🐀

[@trumanberlin3522]

Damn dude I get up for work here in the Bay Area and BOOM a new LML video freshly uploaded?! Thanks for the great content man!

[@DavidLightbringer]

WARRRR-IORSSSS

[@orkinho1]

I'm just gonna say the Maesters glow

[@DarkKing009]

House Targaryen - “Dragons were such majestic and wise beings.” Maesters - “Man fuck dragons. All my homies hate dragons.” The reverence of dragons is a direct inverse correlation to the abundance of dragons.

[@sdstarr01]

Those damned Maesters and their Critical Dragon Theory are responsible for the extinction of dragons!

[@Grogeous_Maximus]

Okay, that was the best intro that ever introed.

[@DavidLightbringer]

My pleasure and thank you

[@captainziggy82]

One of my favorite theories

[@jacksparrow9227]

Aegon apparently didn’t want the throne

[@seth_fitzgerald]

I always saw the dance of the dragons as a Civil War that was created not by the Targaryen initially but by The Maesters. Because in fire and blood, there are three sources that are being biased, a Maester a Septon and a Jester, all three accounts trying to paint one side is good in the other side bad but the objective was completed House Targaryen lost their dragon power due to the internal conflict orchestrated by the Measters and Hightowers

[@Smoug]

I loved laser eyes murderous Lady Dustin

[@lucasadam65]

Nothing is true everything is permitted you should play the assassin's creed games

[@squisherking]

The real sign of the illuminati is that i got an ad LITERALLY the second you said illuminati😳

[@DavidLightbringer]

haha i thought it would be funny to put an add there :)

[@IonIsFalling7217]

And they would have gotten away with it too, by USING those meddling kids!

[@staytuned2L337]

Llloooolllll the lineup 😭

[@andrewbahlman7768]

More old nan!! Great video man

[@salpimienta2961]

Shrykos was killed in the storming of the Dragonpit, Dave. Four remaining after the war is correct though, as there was Morning.

[@DavidLightbringer]

that's what i get for copying the wiki without checking lol

[@Samurai7able]

Nice one brotha!!!

[@titusdaniel3962]

maester conspiracy was also talked about in GoT in a deleted scene i hope it is expanded on in House of the Dragon

[@terryholland9417]

I’m wondering what were the Maesters up to after the dance? Barbrey Dustin, from whom we receive so much of anti Master conspiratory whispers, has the grievance of the lost of her lover to motivate her distrust. She does not appear to express concern over the loss of dragons. Even if there was a dragon culling conspiracy fomented by Maesters, what is their game afterward? Why were they pushing the old Lord Rickon to form Southron alliances? It does not seem that anti dragon sentiment would persist after the dragons are gone.

[@magnusnilsson1962]

Great piece!

[@ellepelle6]

I wonder if the valyrian steel link of the maesters chain, which only one maester in a hundred forges, helps the maesters gauge who is privy to their conspiracy? i.e maesters such as marwyn and luwin, who were clearly interested in magic when studying at the citadel might not be as trustworthy so carry out any grand maester conspriacy plans. where as those who never bother, and clearly dont think it worth it could be more dependable in that aspect

[@betoballe]

17:05 "such as... everyone involved. -Alright." 😂. How many other "plots" may exist in ASOIAF that we still don't know? Amazing work as always.

[@thepanpiper7715]

Something I really enjoyed about the books is the fact that we never get "proper" flashbacks or see objectively how something happened; we get memories that are often self-serving, hazy or else hyper-focused on certain details. We hear "common knowledge" that's just as likely urban legend or slander as truth and the POV character doesn't always pick that up. I haven't finished reading the books, nor have I read any of the short stories/novellas, so I might off base here, but it's occurred to me recently that almost everyone I've heard utter the line about the gods flipping a coin RE the Targs, it's usually coming from someone who had a part in over-throwing them. Looking back over the dynasty there isn't anything particularly unique or noteworthy about their megalomania, except that they practiced incest and had access to dragons. Really the whole "they flip a coin over whether they'll be great or mad" sounds like a brilliant piece of propaganda; yes, there were some brilliant Targ kings, but do you really want to risk it? Likewise, placing the blame for madness on the bloodline, making it seem inevitable, as opposed to their practice of incest making it something that could be avoided.

[@jacksparrow9227]

Suthron I think is the pronunciation

[@glasseyestrong4416]

Great video! Looking forward to the next one. Your Empire of the Dawn and the Targaryens caused the Doom videos are some of my favorite. Maybe you can do some Blackfyre Rebellions videos down the road. Those conflicts also helped bring down the Targaryen population.

[@MrVictor1227]

I am happy

[@oscarquintero7161]

That intro was hilarious as hell 🤣

[@kerinkellynerdcorner]

Hello brother 👋🏾 Love your show✨✨✨

[@Fln13800]

i think your defo right george loves dune its kinda like his version of the bene gesserit only he actually kept the conspiracy secret hes the best

[@bweibeler]

Old Nan sounds like she's about to complain about not voting for the king.

[@DavidLightbringer]

BINGO, check out the Weir Walkers video. Bernie wanders into the WF crypts and they discuss alternate forms of government

[@TheSiggeboy]

Great content!

[@bellavista00]

Oh man this videos really is my favorite topic, I always got the vibes the mesters weren’t right especially with the mesters at the seat of power and at the citidel. I can’t help but think that it’s connected to there past especially where they came from in essos.

[@brentg6127]

Wait, does the scene at the end of Ep5 of House of Dragon with the rats licking the blood a foreshadowing of the Maesters starting the war?

[@DavidLightbringer]

Exactly

[@spideregg]

Loved the intro! I suspect that the conspiracy wasn't just about getting rid of the (D)ragons, but undoing everything that Aegon had done. I think that rather than being simply a conquest for power, that Aegon had an agenda. The next Long Night was approaching, and Westeros and what it represented was woefully unprepared. I believe that this situation was also something that was a result of actions of Citadel and Sept. Aegon did not just bring dragons, he brought the idea of a strong central government. The Targs, early on at least, also seemed to realize the importance of the Watch. So why did the C + S oppose these ideas? This is fundamentally a story about Ice and Fire. Neither is good, neither is evil. They are simply locked in conflict. Some humans are working in the service of Fire, some of Ice. Who would be working for something that spells the end of humanity? People who, in theory at least, have no stake in future generations. Basically a twisting of the vows of the Watch. For the Watch, not having children is about being able to commit themselves to service of the Realm. For the C + S, it is about not caring what happens to humanity. Not all members of either C or S are of that mind, but that is the central goal. The one house that always knew the next Long Night was coming was the Starks. Even knowing what had happened to the those south of the Neck during the Conquest, the Starks are still prepared to go to war with Aegon. Until the two sides meet, and then suddenly the Starks become unwavering Targ allies until the Rebellion. Yes, they back the Blacks, but the Blackfyres are just as much Targ as the Greens. I think Aegon's envoys explained what he was doing, something that of all the Houses only the Starks would understand.

[@DavidLightbringer]

I don’t tend to think the maesters are all nihilistic like that, IDK. I think taking a pro-science, anti-magic stance is something people would inevitably do in Westeros. I don’t think they are pro-Other. Aegon and the Starks, maybe I could see that.

[@MegaKnight2012]

@@DavidLightbringer Martin has said that magic is always supposed to be looked at with skepticism in his world. It all seems so dangerous, so one can understand a Westerosi anti-magic argument. However, the maesters might be using dark means to eliminate dark magic, and isn't that just replacing one evil with another? I've been wondering if the old Empire of the Dawn might have actually had good magic. That's why the sword Dawn is white, but Valyrian steel, made with dark sorcery is black. Then this thought came to me revisiting theories on Summerhall, what if King Aeg wasn't trying to commit dark Valyrian magic to bring back dragons, but by old Dawn light magic he'd found? That's why he was going to use Rhaegar's birth, as opposed to a death sacrifice. Then the maesters intervened, maybe using a young Pycelle, got Aegon and his family killed because they were so scared of magic returning their fear led them to commit a great evil and good magic was denied a rebirth, lost since the Bloodstone Emperor ruined the Dawn Empire. It fits with themes of Martin's, you try to be good and bad men kill you, however good the murderers' intentions as well. Then there's in the Dunk and Aeg stories how people try to do good, like Dunk protecting Tanelle and Prince Baelor fighting for Dunk's life, and bad things happen.

[@spideregg]

@@DavidLightbringer I agree that neither the books nor the Maesters are nihilistic. Just that Ice and Fire and two opposing forces. As members of the living, we would tend to see Fire as good, and Ice as bad. In the same way we sympathize with the humans and their allies in LOTR. We don't know anything about the Others. Do they have their own culture? Do they have tales of an Age of Heroes and of the last Long Night? They may be trying to destroy the living not out of nihilism, but simply because the living stand in their way. And that somehow, in this incredible world of magic, they have managed to plant their own agents among the living.

[@DavidbarZeus1]

Ah, slight misunderstanding here. The Blacks and Greens are Targaryen parties during the Dance. The Blacks supported Rhaenyra Targaryen, Viserys' chosen heir while the Greens supported Aegon and those born of Alicent Hightower. The Blackfyres didn't come around until the reign of Aegon IV the Unworthy, as they are born of one of his bastard children.

[@spideregg]

@@DavidbarZeus1Yeah, I think I was just being sort of lazy and combining the two, trying to make points about the two different time periods. I tend to get irked when people refer to Aegon 2.0 (YG) as a Blackfyre pretender and therefore not a real Targ. I don't think that is what he is (I believe he, like both of the Princesses of Dragonstone are true Blood of the Dragon), but even if he was just a Blackfyre he would be as much Targ as Viserys.

[@amynurss1375]

Yeah its the Maeters. They started more $#@% than anyone knows.