The Awful Legacy of Tim Burton's Alice in Wonderland

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Tim Burton's Alice in Wonderland was a massive hit back in 2010. It proved to be a huge hit for Disney and kicked off their era of live-action remakes. This movie...has a lot to answer for.
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[@captainmidnight]

What do you think of the movie? How about Tim Burton? Get both Nebula and CuriosityStream here: curiositystream.com/captainmidnight for less than $15 a YEAR.

[@M0no]

You should do a video on the surprisingly good legacy of tron legacy

[@maldon3659]

@@M0no I can't wait for Tron 3 or whatever it's going to be called

[@anubusx]

Wonderland is supposed to be bright and pleasant. But his Wonderland was such an ugly and nightmarish mess.

[@lordbritannic]

I'm surprised that it was a hit. I saw it but it ultimately dull let down.

[@iansteelmatheson]

I can't quite believe you think dumbo was one of the better remakes haha I know the bar is low, but it's absolutely god-awful

[@birdcar7808]

It’s weird that this movie’s theme is all about Alice making her own choices but the plot is about Alice doing exactly what the prophecy predetermined she would do

[@brunomarty5942]

I R O N I C

[@jenniferschillig3768]

I came here to say just that! It's why this movie never really gelled with me. If, for example, the prophecy called for Alice to defeat the Jabberwocky by sacrificing herself, but she decided there had to be another way, that might have been better.

[@Cityweaver]

I distain prophecies with all my heart and refuse to use them in my writing. Modern fantasy never uses them for dramatic weight like a Greek tale, where a king marching confidently to his destiny is his ruin. Modern fantasy exists to act like people working towards a goal means they deserve to have it, and they make prophecies the Great Cosmic I Told You So in their work. It's so childish and needy.

[@mantonythe1st]

​@@Cityweaver Totally agree. I've never understood the unnecessary use of prophecies. If it's literally predetermined that the protag will win then there's nothing to lose, no tension or question of will they win or not. In Avatar: The Last Airbender it was Aang's destiny to defeat the Fire Lord but it wasn't predetermined - it was his role to fulfil, but there wasn't a prophecy saying that he would succeed. This worked because there was a chance he could fail and with the time limit of Sozin's Comet it genuinely felt like he could fail. But more than that, it created inner conflict because Aang didn't want to kill him yet knew it was his role. This is such good story-telling. But if one minor detail was changed - that there was a prophecy that Aang would defeat the Fire Lord - then a lot of that tension would be gone. The inner conflict wouldn't be the same either as Aang would be forced to accept that he has to kill him because it's foretold. I just think it's funny that when a film comes out we avoid spoilers like the plague yet some scripts just give you the biggest spoilers right at the start of the film lol

[@Cityweaver]

@@mantonythe1st EXACTLY. ATLA is pretty much a masterclass on doing every trope right. Zuko and Aang had a "destiny" in the sense that "the Universe curves to Justice, so no matter how powerful the fire lord seems he CAN be brought to Justice". That's a relatable and uplifting sense of destiny. That's something that we can actually believe in.

[@TheGunJungy]

The scene where Johnny Depp's character just starts dancing near the end of the movie is one of my least favorite memories being in a movie theater.

[@captainmidnight]

Painful stuff.

[@ssunsspott5170]

It was so jarring compared to the previous scene and the scene after it. Genuinely uncomfortable and awkward to watch even though it's supposed to be this fun victorious moment

[@Malum09]

Watched the movie with some friends when it was released and we all loudly said "What the fuck?" at that part

[@alexkidd3d]

I had absolutely forgotten this...thanks for making those painful repressed memories emerge

[@AlexParkerEmcee]

whoops, stumbled into the edgelord chat. I'll see myself out

[@JordanGrimmer]

I've never understood how one of the most colourful and trippy stories ever made could be turned into this grey and messy world. I just remember Alice in Wonderland 2010 being sapped of life with none of the fun and interesting elements of the book and Disney film.

[@reginalannister2262]

Absolutely

[@RunnerX13]

I kept checking the brightness on my phone until I realized that’s just what the movie looks like.

[@facefucker7923]

That's tim Burton for you 😒

[@Attmay]

A smaller, more intimate live-action Alice film from Disney that was somewhat in the vein of *Return to Oz* could have worked.

[@rosewatersaffron8430]

@@facefucker7923 No it's not. This modern way of color grading in post needs to stop. A great example of a Burton movie being dark and gothic but not devoid of color is Beetlejuice or even Batman. The blacks are deep black but when color is used and it is often the tones are vibrant. Like cat womans lipstick or Lydia's red dress.

[@BugsyFoga]

In all honesty, I’d probably watch this film over most Disney remakes .

[@lorettabes4553]

Same :)

[@bighand1530]

Same

[@MiloKuroshiro]

Nah. The other remakes are Bland at worse. Alice is a trainwreck. It's offensive to watch. It hurts.

[@robinthrush9672]

I think it's because the Burton Alice movies are sequels and the other ones are unnecessary remakes of the same story with even more unnecessary edits and additions to the scripts that make them blander.

[@noobmasterruben5167]

Thats because this one has a soul

[@VideoGameAutopsy]

American McGee, the macabre mastermind behind the two amazing “Alice” games, summed up the movie perfectly (at least in this guy’s opinion) when he said “It wasn’t a movie about Alice. It was a movie about everyone else”.

[@guskiraman]

When I went to the cinema to watch this Alice in Wonderland I was hoping to see something remotely similar to what McGee did. Needless to say that my expectations were not met

[@disneyvillainsfan1666]

Madness Returns is A Dark Wonderland done right.

[@KandiBabyy]

@@disneyvillainsfan1666 I absolutely LOVEEEE that series of video games

[@plaguefellow4956]

@@KandiBabyy madness returns is amazing I heard of McGee making another with I believe the others getting a remaster maybe. I wouldn't get hopes up for it coming out soon though but I hope it will come out and be good.

[@KandiBabyy]

@@plaguefellow4956 I honestly never even looked into a remastered version or anything, but I bet it’d be awesome!!!!

[@pinkninjin3201]

"Alice in The Wonderland" is definitely not a great movie but still a lot better than most Disney live action movies/remakes like "The Lion King" and "Beauty and The Beast"

[@turtleanton6539]

Lowbar

[@JohnDarksoul69]

@@turtleanton6539 depressingly low lmfao

[@christophergarcia9022]

It's decent because it kinda tries to tell its own story instead of being a mediocre adaption of a movie that was already made.

[@perrykv7312]

That's why I prefer this movie over the classic one, but I disliked that I felt that the movie, since Alice enters Wonderland until Alice meets the Queen of Hearts, was too fast

[@vandalsavage6743]

I thought this was the movie that started the trend

[@NewAlchemychan]

Tim Burton + Alice in Wonderland sounds like a match made in heaven…. Until we saw the movie

[@aussieman3021]

I was at one point under the impression that Burton didn't want to make a proper adaptation, because of some of the things he said when the movie was in production. While it was true when he said that none of the adaptations completely captured Lewis Carroll's work, one reason he said he didn't like them was because "they were a series of weird events with every character being strange and Alice going through them like some sort of observer", which I claimed was what the original books were, which was why they were hard to adapt in the first place.

[@warholcow]

Gwad! Totally agree was so excited then whomp whomp. Same with Charlie and the Chocolate Factory.

[@thiagoteixeira6537]

I thought so

[@SamyTheBookWorm]

Honestly, any movie Tim Burton made after 1990 was kind of terrible

[@barbarabaker1457]

@@aussieman3021 Which confused me as he's felt like that at times.

[@danielcopeland3544]

At least Burton was honest enough to admit that he didn't get _Alice in Wonderland._ The key to Lewis Carroll's books is that everything that happens is perfectly _logical_ but relentlessly defies _common sense._ There is no _logical_ contradiction involved in the Cheshire Cat being able to disappear and reappear at will; it's just out of step with both reality and our expectations. Stephen Fry's performance as the Cheshire Cat was one of the less bad things about this movie. But his line of dialogue where the character explains his teleportation powers as being characteristic of some class of teleporting beings to which he belongs (there was a name for them which I don't remember) -- that is an attempt to wrench the Cheshire Cat into the world of common sense, where things can be categorized according to their behaviour, abilities, properties, and so on. And the whole point of the Cheshire Cat is that he's outside that world. "We're all mad here."

[@kaitlyn__L]

Whoopi Goldberg will always be the cheshire cat to me. And Alice’s dress yellow instead of blue. And if I’m remembering correctly, Gene Wilder as the turtle soup guy? Excellent stuff.

[@cathal_account9815]

@Productive Centaur he doesn't, I have no idea what this guys talking about.

[@Ch50304]

Hmm interesting view point.

[@staringcorgi6475]

But that doesn’t justify a boring plot if the what happens in a film is boring the film is shit end of story which is why alice in wonderland from 1951 is a boring mess that is there with the other boring films

[@jspaingreene6350]

I'm with you - this movie changed my views on Tim Burton - I thought he lost his way here and hasn't completely recovered. The line was crossed from quirky, creepy & clever to quirky & creepy as an end to itself. The commodification of kooky and spooky.

[@butitsgoogleimages8303]

I will say he kind of found his old style again with Big Eyes and Frankenweenie, but those were kind of underwhelming compared to his original stuff.

[@MERCHIODOS]

Actually Tim Burton wanted to make the film even darker, but Disney said to make it less dark cause its a kids film. The final product we got was how much dark Disney was willing to go

[@jspaingreene6350]

@@MERCHIODOS I'm sure - I totally believe it. Burton was fighting for darker tropes/ themes since the beginning. I remember him wanting things in Batman that WB wouldn't go for. But i don't think the darkness/quirkiness in Alice was very dimensional...I am, myself, very odd and unusual, an acolyte of Lydia Dietz... So l am disappointed by a Alice's superficial "gothness".... LoL

[@jspaingreene6350]

@@butitsgoogleimages8303 Totally agree! Well... They say when artists get healthy/happy sometimes they lose their mojo. Hee hee

[@viscountrainbows6452]

@@jspaingreene6350 I also am a huge fan of Lydia and I feel like a lot of these "goffick" characters in recent entries have just been poor imitations of Ryder's mix of humorous sardonicism and sincere sadness, often leaning too far in one direction or the other.

[@happyhelpfulhoovy]

I don't remember anything about both the Alice movies, but that soundtrack, man that soundtrack. It is so incredibly Danny Elfman and sometimes ill find myself humming Alice's Theme after literally not listening to it for ages. The main motif for the Alice Theme is about as recognisable for me as the Binary Sunset/Force Theme from Star Wars and no matter how shit Disney remakes are, Alice still has one of the better soundtracks of all of them.

[@materla4102]

Exactly! The theme is so recognisible and stuck in my head.

[@annawinter4465]

Same!!!

[@disneyvillainsfan1666]

I agree, the soundtrack was really cool and unforgettable, Regardless of the movie's quality.

[@Spectra651]

I can completely agree with this! I went in wanting to love this movie but left very disappointed to say the least. The story, the characters, the visuals... all a massive letdown (though I did like some of the designs; the Red Queen's castle, for example), but the Elfman score? Simply amazing, the film's only real saving grace, imo.

[@EmlynBoyle]

Agreed! The soundtrack is amazing, even if the movie isn’t.

[@im_not_here_to_fight2744]

I always thought the reason the world seemed stale and old was because of how jaded and cynical Alice had become about life, and Wonderland is tied to her imagination and stuff. So that's why in the sequel was brighter and more colourful because Alice was a free spirit once more

[@upsetstudios1819]

I've always loved this movie for it's dark aesthetic but now I get the feeling that another, much better "dark Alice" movie exists in an AU

[@Gemnist98]

Play the M-rated games Alice and Alice: Madness Returns. That should satisfy you.

[@SweWolf74]

I love those two games. I also recommend the movie Sucker Punch (director's cut) it has several paralells to Alice, but a dark version ...

[@Grim_Sister]

Go play American McGee’s Alice. Thank me later

[@michiel1162]

@@SweWolf74 sucker punch is bad

[@sneedwashere]

No, that movie exists in this universe. Jan Svankmajer’s Alice in Wonderland (1988). Thank me after you watch it.

[@Everik-ct6pg]

This movie is literally just a rip-off of American McGee's Alice. “An older adult Alice goes back to a twisted and dark wonderland in order to defeat the Jabberwocky and the red queen of hearts and return wonderland to it's former glory” is a synopsis that can be used to describe both the game and the movie. Hell, Tim's Alice even goes to an asylum in the sequel, the difference is that American McGee's Alice is actually good.

[@plaguefellow4956]

I love McGee's madness returns I heard another game being made eventually so I'm excited

[@Everik-ct6pg]

@@plaguefellow4956 i don't like MR, but yeah i like McGee's Alice Asylum concepts.

[@turtleanton6539]

Yes

[@wiiink]

American McGee's version of Alice is written sooo much better too, she actually has a personality and is given the agency to make her own choices without the story just dragging her along

[@orionhan2431]

ironically Tim Burtons is the most tame Alice in Wonderland. The OG was actually quite dark.

[@Calypsotheseagoddess]

I will never forgive this movie for one thing: it started the live action remake trend. Thanks. I hate it.

[@davidwhite2671]

Actually, the ‘live action remake’ trend began in 1996. Featuring the first Disney live action remake of 101 Dalmatians plus a sequel in early 2000.

[@jspaingreene6350]

LoL!!! Lindsay Ellis's nose is itching....and you are so right.

[@MERCHIODOS]

@@davidwhite2671 the 90's version of 101 Dalmation live action remake was a huge flop for disney and they never remake an animtaed film to live action again. It was till Tim Burton wanted to make a Alice in Wanderland movie and since Disney owned the film rights they let him remake the film / book. Tim Burton's version of Alice in Wonderland became a huge success and Disney thought what other animation could they remake into live action and they chose Sleeping Beauty, but they followed Tim Burton proach and changed it slighty, in the end making it into a origin story for Maleficent while also throwing in Sleeping Beauty story. Maleficent too became a success and then Disney continued on remaking another animation into live action

[@Fantallana]

@@MERCHIODOS if it was a flop then why did they make 102 Dalmatians?

[@davidwhite2671]

@@MERCHIODOS True enough.

[@Tymbus]

Terry Gilliam's Jabberwoky (1977) is brilliant

[@IROC400]

You know about the Jabberwocky project?

[@lowlowseesee]

its Gilliam so thats expected

[@AmySwain03]

As a big Alice in wonderland fan this movie makes me extremely mad. Where was the madness?

[@jspaingreene6350]

Apparently, we supply the madness. And annoyance. LoL!

[@kyubbikcat2281]

Where was the color? It’s all desaturated or white.

[@Aforestwhore]

@@kyubbikcat2281 well it’s supposed to look that way to show how the Red Queen had sucked all of the life out of the land. The sequel is colorful because she is no longer in charge.

[@hoziers_hairtie]

@@Aforestwhore I never fully put together that director's choice of lack of color and life being sucked out of the land. While I admit its a good one, they could have done an explanation of it. A typical scene where a character pulls out a magical map and the map shows whats alive and whats not and the character explains why. Using that narrative could have saved them the ability to use a wild amount of color in the alive places. The entire choice of sapping the color from wonderland (of all places) makes the movie highly unenjoyable to watch in an place that isnt the movie theater. Despite how much they butchered the story, even the old disney understood the importance of color and an at-home enjoyment of a movie. I really think Tim Burton highly misunderstood Lewis Carrol's point of wonderland and the vibe its supposed to give.

[@karolinakuc4783]

Coz people obsessed with order do not like colours. They make their eyes hurt.

[@plcthelegacy4131]

Somewhere in an alternative universe 2010, this movie did ok and Tron Legacy would went on to spawn a sequel.

[@Xanderful209]

I hear tron legacy might still have a sequel but Tomorrowland’s flop was one of the reasons the sequel got pushed to the back burner….

[@Yup712]

I was soooo excited for this film when it was first announced! I think its main problem is that it was a sequel of sorts to the books & animated film rather than an adaptation of Lewis Carroll’s dark & disturbing book.

[@jspaingreene6350]

Yes

[@mesousagaby740]

Mia Wasikowska's career never went anywhere even with this movie's success, almost as if Tim made her acting so dreary and uncharismatic so that she doesn't get casted in anything else. Also, anybody thought the White Queen was clearly on weed in this movie? I think Anne Hathaway needed drugs to get through this. XD

[@Malum09]

I think is for the best since she's been good in the indie and mid budget movies she has done since.

[@ThePrinceofHisOwnKingdom]

She's better off in indies anyway.

[@KestrelM117]

I agree with you for the White Queen. Each time I see the movie I like her acting more and more, makes me laughing so much xD

[@nemowindsor8724]

She lead Crimson Peak and was quite good in it. Better than whatever childish train wreck Chastain was doing as the main character and antagonist.

[@battmarn]

You mean Helena Bonham Carter? Or was Anne Hathaway in this too?

[@xanderguyer7512]

I feel like you can't overlook emo teens here. The year was 2010. The Mad Hatter gets to be emo. Its popularity was carved in stone.

[@Grim_Sister]

My theory is that this movie is a toned down version of American McGee’s Alice, a game from the 2000’s. In both Alice must defeat the Queen of Hearts and her Jabberwocky in order to free Wonderland, gaining something in the process. Here it’s independence, in the game, it’s sanity (or peace of mind, as it were). The game isn’t for the faint of heart (there’s a lot of creatures being mutilated for shock value), but it is a very inventive and iconic game, with a design that stuck with people for two decades

[@PedanticPig]

As dark and violent as it is and even though they share the same basic plot, American McGee's Alice captures the weird atmosphere of Wonderland so much better. You could really feel the respect it had for the source material.

[@SweWolf74]

Yeah, I love those games, they are more like a horror version. Fun fact: in the books, the Queen of Hears and the Red Queen are differet characters, bot in the games and movies they are merged in to one.

[@robinthrush9672]

I think both of those took inspiration from the live-action sequel movie of Alice Through the Looking Glass that had her confront the jabberwocky while working for the White Queen's side of the chess board.

[@disneyvillainsfan1666]

The sad thing is, Tim Burton's Alice In Wonderland could have been as twisted, dark, and mental as American McGee's games, if Disney wasn't so focused on being family friendly. Yes there was a scene where The Doormouse stabbed that one monster's eye out, and another scene where Alice was going over through a river of People's heads, but that's about it.

[@sanxxxx]

McGee is a genius with a really sad and hard life. I love his Alice. It deals with depression, mental illness and sexual assault without even once being distasteful or sexualising its teen protagonist. Even though he went through hardships, he puts out a game full of empathy instead of perverse shock-value art that many in his place turn to. I really love him as a creator, he's very inspiring. He's trying to make another game happen for a very long time but has insufficient funds for it, I hope he gets to make it in the end.

[@Omenweaver]

I agree with pretty much everything in this video, but no way do I think Dumbo was anything other than a dumpster fire

[@captainmidnight]

Fair enough, I just think it's slightly better than like, The Lion King remake. Extremely low bar.

[@Omenweaver]

@@captainmidnight I can see where you're coming from, it does get points for trying more than the Lion King to be different to the original, even if the execution is... bad. But then Dumbo also had the easier job since barely anyone remembers the original, whereas the Lion King has a legendary status both within and outside the Disney canon. Its a tough call, but ultimately I think I'll just settle on "they're both awful cashgrabs" and call it a day. I enjoy your channel by the way, keep doing what you do🙂

[@orangeslash1667]

@@captainmidnight Soul eater feels more like Tim Burton than his modern films.

[@producerevan88]

I remember leaving the theatre with my girlfriend at the time, and just being so extremely let down. The movie was very uncomfortable to look at and wasn't fun at all in my opinion.

[@MERCHIODOS]

The thing is people went in expecting Alice in Waterland, yet we got Alice through the looking glass.

[@producerevan88]

@@MERCHIODOS yeah, no that wasn't what was disappointing. It was that it had nothing to it. It was Johnny Depp all hopped up on God knows what and the quite lame story or lack thereof. The video games do a better job at the Burton aesthetic

[@mojavefry2617]

This movie I will never truly understand. Having just entered college when it came out, I actually do understand how it became popular. That was the era of peak “Hot Topic” culture. The promise of more 3D thrills in the wake of Avatar also likely, as you pointed out, enticed people to see it. I just am so baffled by every. Single. Creative decision that went into this film that I still can not wrap my mind around how it even came to be in the first place.

[@superab10]

As a Scotsman saying this, Johnny Depp and Mel Gibson's were the least insulting Scottish accents I've ever heard. Please show me non British actors that have done better please

[@missellaneous5142]

Mike Myers?

[@choreomaniac]

@@missellaneous5142 was gonna say this but I believe his heritage is Scottish-Canadian.

[@RunnerX13]

@@choreomaniac his parents where from Liverpool

[@AbrahamBenno]

I actually like it BECAUSE of how much of a weird and bizzare movie it is. Also you can’t tell me Johnny Depp didn’t play that role really well!

[@melomiss9149]

favorite movie since i was 6 and i still love it (even dressed up as the white queen for halloween),, i think getting this grey atmosphere instead of the bubbly one everyone was expecting was actually what made it so special and made people love it, over wise it would just be an Alice in wonderland remake and everyone would have forget about it

[@YoHoHoAndCake]

He did say Johnny Depp didn’t play that role well

[@AbrahamBenno]

@@YoHoHoAndCake Yeah, I have a habit of making the comment either before watching, or while watching the video.

[@limlaith]

I am surprised that so many people dislike this movie. I thought it was great! I really enjoyed it. I still don't see what makes people despise it, and I freaking love Johnny Depp as the Hatter!

[@alibaik]

tottaly agree

[@abdelali9279]

I remember when American McGee's Alice came out and news outlets and people were calling it, "if Alice in Wonderland was made by Tim Burton", if only we knew better...

[@arytaco5380]

I definitely understand the hate for this one but I personally really enjoy it. Better than most live action remakes by Disney.

[@KathrynsWorldWildfireTracking]

I hate most of it - but the Red Queen...I could watch all day! :)

[@pillbugm8914]

Really? I mean like what you like but there's a lot to dislike about it - the messaging is unclear and self-conflicting, it completely loses the fundamentals of the original source material being a movie about navigating childhood, and is generally an ugly, colorless mess.

[@TheBeird]

I think what made Burton's earlier work so great was that they had an element of the perverse. Batman Returns the biggest culprit. And I think the fact that he got older and became a father has, understandably, gone. So for me, a crucial part of the ethos what made a Tim Burton movie is no longer there

[@viscountrainbows6452]

Yeah it's sad how Tim Burton had over time become somewhat of a Shyamalan; known for his masterpieces, his genre-defining hits and interpretations of older properties; but ultimately becoming more a Name than an artist. Nightmare Before Christmas, Batman 89 and Returns, Sleepy Hollow, Sweeney Todd, Edward Scissorhands, etc. I grew up on it and took in his expression as uniquely whimsical and dark. But sadly he seemed at one point to know that he could just fart and it'd be captured as a masterpiece.

[@jspaingreene6350]

Yes... You hit the nail in the head, I think. When artists lose their angst, they can lose their edge. We see it more in music, but it is applicable to Burton, i think. Fatherhood definitely softened him... Which i hope is great for his kids anyway!

[@ChangedMyNameFinally69]

@@viscountrainbows6452 Was he ever really dark? Most of his movies are too goofy to take seriously barring Sweeney Todd

[@starkillersneed]

Alice in Wonderland's success is something I like to call Suicide Squad Effect. When the film itself is awful at worst or forgettable at best, but the aesthetics fit the current zeitgeist so people still like the property itself and buy the merchandise. In that case, the zeitgeist being early 2010's scene kids.

[@velociraptor4you3291]

Personally, what bothers me about this film is the narrative choice to have Alice believe that what’s happening to her is all in her head (a dream)…up until the final act. In other films similar to this, it takes until the end of Act 1 or the beginning of Act 2 for the characters to accept that everything & everyone around them is their new ‘reality.’ Other than that big gripe, I don’t hate this film; despite being a standard Hollywood fantasy blockbuster in the end, I actually enjoyed it, and I still kind of do to this day. I haven’t yet seen “Through the Looking Glass” though.

[@KestrelM117]

You should watch "Through the Looking-Glass"! It is very different from the 1st movie but I really love it, more colorful and dynamic! And Time is a great character.

[@velociraptor4you3291]

@@KestrelM117 Alright, it’s officially on my list (😉).

[@Spectra651]

True, that was a really dumb narrative choice that added nothing and only served to make Alice look rather dimwitted. I have no idea what they were going for having that as plot point other than to, I guess(?), have the "revelation" in the third act be that Alice had been to Wonderland as a child and that it was actually a real place, even though we'd... kinda already figured that out by that point? It just ended up being really pointless.

[@velociraptor4you3291]

@@Spectra651 Well said (👍). Makes the film a rather frustrating watch up until that point.

[@annas4277]

Man I was like 15 when this came out and I loved it so much. I even saw it in the theatre multiple times and yeah, I owned a lot of Mad Hatter and Cheshire Cat crap from Hot Topic. I was the Red Queen for Halloween! But I think even then it was the atmosphere and characters (or the idea of the characters) that I loved more than the actual plot/movie as a whole. I read the fanfiction and got involved in the fandom because I was desperate for more. It wasn't because the movie was actually good but because it disappointingly left a lot to be desired. Like I remember so badly wanting to know more about the Mad Hatter's backstory or see Alice actually BE Alice, because that stuff just wasn't there in the first place.

[@KestrelM117]

It was exactly the same for me! I would have love to read fanfiction of the movie, didn't know there was some as it's all in English and I'm French... but I was also so attached to the characters, and felt frustrated we don't see more.

[@dragonskunkstudio7582]

"Dumbo was one of the better remakes" That statement kinda gives perspective of how crap Disney remakes are, cuz that was big pile of elephant dung.

[@seb24789]

Dalmatians was okay.

[@CaptainaMARIca]

@@seb24789 it was pretty bad. They literally made the entire justification of why Cruella Deville hated Dalmatians because her “mom” was killed by Dalmatians lmao

[@seb24789]

@@CaptainaMARIca Not that one! I mean the old 90s movie.

[@nitzeart]

I actually think it was Cinderella 2015. That movie actually brings something new to the story, though some changes to Cinderella's character herself I don't love. But the prince and his relationship with his father, and the overall aesthetic and costumes are amazing. Honestly I haven't watched many of the others after that horrible Beauty and the Beast one.

[@monicaaboites5053]

Nahh. It’s bad. I can’t understand why they still focus on humans rather than the animals which are the main characters. The best remake of Disney still 101 Dalmatians with Glenn Close.

[@sparkymularkey6970]

I LOVE Alice in Wonderland and Through the Looking Glass. I love the books and I love the original Disney movie. And I remember being SO disappointed in this movie. It did nothing to capture the actually spirit of the story and the world.

[@hunterolaughlin]

There are other adaptations of Alice in Wonderland that capture the actual spirit of the story and the world of Wonderland or Looking-Glassland that are also good watches besides the Disney version. The 1999 Hallmark TV film featuring Martin Short, Whoopi Goldberg, the late Gene Wilder and Christopher Lloyd The 1985 2 part all-star television film produced by Irwin Allen and featuring the voice of Jenny from Oliver and Company as Alice. The 1972 film starring the Bond girl from A View to Kill, Fiona Fullerton as Alice and a young Michael Crawford before he was The Phantom of the Opera as the White Rabbit The 1949 French stop-motion/live-action film featuring Carol Marsh and puppets by Lou Bunin that got into legal debates with Disney’s version because the English dub was going to be released around the same time as theirs. The 1933 Paramount Pictures adaptation that, just like the 2 part 1985 TV film features an all-star cast, but they’re nearly unrecognizable because of the costumes and masks they have to wear. In fact, the costumes and masks may be the freakiest versions of Wonder or Looking-Glassland characters you’ll ever see. It’s one of the few adaptations that really keeps true to the surreal nature of the books. There are many more, but those are the best ones I could think of.

[@PedanticPig]

@@hunterolaughlin The 1998 Through the Looking Glass TV movie with Kate Beckinsale is also great. It's one of the most faithful adaptations I've seen despite having an aged up Alice; most of the dialogue is lifted directly from the books. And it's on KZbin! I'm also partial to Jan Svankmajer's stop motion Alice, which kind of takes the opposite route. Almost no dialogue, but dials the freaky surrealism right up.

[@hunterolaughlin]

@@PedanticPig Then again, most adaptations of Alice in Wonderland/Through the Looking-Glass have aged up Alice before, so it’s nothing entirely new. I’ve heard of Jan Svankmajer’s version of Alice and seen some brief clips from which was featured in AniMat’s “Animation Lookback: The Best of Stop-Motion”, in which he talked about the early stop-motion animated films and one of them he talked about was the 1949 French version by Lou Bunin and he mentioned Svankmajer’s version. But my reaction to the clips is just... OH GOD! I don’t know if I can watch that version of Wonderland. It’s surreal but also more like a horror version of Wonderland. I’ve even read a synopsis of it on Wikipedia and found it really more creepy with the White Rabbit being the Queen’s executioner and cutting off heads with scissors and almost cutting off Alice’s near the end. So, no offense, but I think I’ll pass on watching Svankmajer’s version.

[@sparkymularkey6970]

@@hunterolaughlin I have literally seen all of these. 🥰 Yes, there are so many other films that do a much better job.

[@Zombiesnyder13]

Can never trust Disney Even if there is a great director behind it

[@MumblingCartoonist]

Especially that

[@lowlowseesee]

why would anyone trust a bank hahaha

[@buzter8135]

I feel bad for Mr.Burton, I'm sure working with Diseny didn't help the production of any of his recent films.

[@giancarlojacobs9982]

At the Alice era of Tim's career we were ALL just showing up in theaters for Helena Bonham Carter. She single-handedly carried both Alice movies.

[@CinnamonGrrlErin1]

I was a huge Burton fan as a kid in the 80s and 90s, but I fell out of love with him after Charlie and the Chocolate Factory, which is strange because I actually do like the movie, but I don't think CGI was a good fit for Burton's style. Luckily, there's already an excellent stop motion movie, "Alice," directed by Jan Svankmejer, that is everything I could ever want in an adaptation.

[@jspaingreene6350]

Agree. I remember Burton going on and on...and on...and on....about Roald Dahl hating the 1972 film, but then the kids were so close in looks & characterization to that other film, I was puzzled. Agree about the CGI for sure. And have to give a shout out to your mention of Svankmejer. Amazing body of work! That guy never lost his vision. Did you see the documentary about him? Good stuff.

[@CinnamonGrrlErin1]

@@jspaingreene6350 For all that I've enjoyed Burton's work in film, tv, and books, I've never been able to get a handle on the guy; his earlier work had this sincerity to it that made the audience believe his worlds were real, and it totally flipped with Charlie (and I have the impression that Dahl was just kind of a sour guy in real life (to put it kindly), so I take his attitude towards the Charlie and the Witches adaptations with a giant grain of salt). I can't exactly blame him for selling out to Big Movie, but he's also a big enough name so that he doesn't have to if he doesn't want to, and the fact that he does is just sad. I've been a huge fan of Svankmejer for about 20 years now; I stumbled across Alice at a video store when I was in high school and it blew me away. Same with the Quay brothers; I remember thinking how they were doing what Burton should/could have been doing. The documentary on them is very good, but I haven't seen the Svankmejer one yet.

[@johnhallman3611]

Jan is criminally underrated outside his home country. He should be taught in film school.

[@headofcosmospictures1232]

I think the older version of charlie and the choclate factory works better as a movie because it drifted from the book and therefore had a more overarching plot with slugworth, the fizzy lifting drinks and the everlasting gobstopper while in the 2005 remake in seems charlie just got the factory because he stayed behind last and not because he past a secret test of character, then the 2005 remake tries to have tension in the climax with that stuff about willy wonka and his father even tough the movie should already be over , so the old movie might not be a perfect adaption but in my opinion it works much better as a movie

[@CinnamonGrrlErin1]

@@johnhallman3611 I was lucky to live near a video store that specialized in foreign and cult films; I got into Jan, the Quays, Jeunet and Caro, Jiri Trnka, and eastern European film in general when I was still in high school

[@joebove4]

“Alice” felt like a movie made by somebody trying to emulate Tom Burton rather than actually made by Burton.

[@Bopperann]

I remember seeing this movie and laughing most of the way through because it was so horrible. Yet people told me I was wrong. I hated the CGI and the story execution. Perhaps I have just been spoiled by _American McGee's Alice: The Madness Returns._

[@theirishpotato6588]

Yes

[@vernyulkisasszony4708]

I was pretty alone with not liking the film too. I mean, I wouldn't call it objectively bad, but it's not that good they claimed it to be. We watched the sequel too, because my sister wanted it. Ironically she was bored, and I ended up enjoying it as a guilty pleasure. Like it's so stupid, but (I personally think) the kind of nonsense that was part of it was just entertained me. (The time travelling was also very creative and the Time dude had some good lines.)

[@Bopperann]

@@vernyulkisasszony4708 I couldn't breathe when the hatter danced. Didn't he complete it with a 360 head spin? Ultimately, i felt it could have been better with not only an improvement to the writing but also just going full CGI instead of live action actors.

[@Malum09]

I feel this was the moment that Tim Burton became more of a "Gun for Hire" director than the Auteur he was seen before.

[@BryanAJParry]

This.

[@ArtWithKiki]

The fact that Tim Burton + Alice in Wonderland could have toed that perfect line between creepy/edgy and classical Alice but completely missed the mark is so disappointing. The video game Alice: Madness Returns (a sequel to American McGee's Alice) while not a perfect game, is utterly breathtaking. Totally weaves classic whimsical, beautiful wonderland that has also been corrupted and is now dark and terrifying/bleak in certain parts. Even the character designs did it perfectly down to the last detail. This movie feels like it's trying to do what Madness Returns did, but make it still PG enough for Disney. Seriously, everyone go play Madness Returns if you hoped for more from this movie, you won't regret it! Absolutely incredible art direction.

[@ViMBarN]

Nice video! Utterly enjoyable as always :) But how can you go talk so much about Tim Burton and barely give credit to his amazing work in stop-motion animation?? The Nightmare before Christmas, Corpse Bride, and Frakenweenie are a trilogy told in reverse and I will die on this hill :P Also 9 (super underrated), James and the Giant Peach, etc... !! Although I completely agree with the main point of the video... It totally jumpstarted this age of Disney remakes and it's legacy is both sad and dissapointing. (Great connection with Narnia, the battle in Alice seemed so Token it felt like they were just using Narnia style and it felt wrong). I'm a huge fan of the books, I loved your video on The Chronicles of Narnia as well.

[@captainmidnight]

I didn't talk about the stop motion stuff too much here...saving that for if I ever want to do a Nightmare Before Christmas video.

[@ViMBarN]

@@captainmidnight Ooohhh HYPE!

[@jordanknapp7757]

Please do nightmare love that film

[@markchapman6800]

@@mitchellhorton9382 Most notoriously - "The Nightmare Before Christmas is a 1993 American stop-motion animated musical dark fantasy Halloween-Christmas film directed by *Henry Selick* and produced and conceived by Tim Burton." en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Nightmare_Before_Christmas

[@Dyrnwynn]

Burton had almost nothing to do with the stop motion animation in The Nightmare Before Christmas. That was Henry Selleck (who also made Coraline, and James & the Giant Peach).

[@LeonardoKlotz]

The age of artistic bankruptcy

[@pcm1011]

The age when art became content

[@garrettharris8241]

This was great! Maybe you could also do a video on Disney's Oz The Great and Powerful, and The Lone Ranger with Johnny Depp!

[@caryn7154]

i forgot these movies existed lol

[@disneyvillainsfan1666]

@@caryn7154 So did I. I do remember that in Oz The Great and Powerful, there was a China Doll girl whose town was destroyed, but that's about it.

[@quickflash2studios232]

If you want a goth Alice in Wonderland, play American McGee’s Alice games!

[@tiffanypersaud3518]

I finally saw the film. They shaped Alice's character out to be a likeable character but while she was in Wonderland, she didn't turn out to be a likeable character for me. There's this scene with the dog character who explained he sold Alice out because the enemy took his wife and pups... Alice showed no compassion and immediately commanded the dog take her to where she needed to be... perhaps it was to get justice but I felt she lacked compassion and that was not the story I think they were trying to tell. I can see with the sequel, she overcorrected and tried to adjust and I enjoyed the second film for its story a lot more.

[@toxicsugarart2103]

Oh boy I was obsessed with this movie in like my preteens, can’t wait to get the childhood educated out of me lol.

[@gabrielleduplessis7388]

The only debate I have with the Narnia battle is you have these little endgame moments (before endgame existed). You have Edmund going from someone who was easily manipulated by the white witch to being the one who defeated her. He was the one who protected his family after his family spent the whole movie to save him. Love character growth. Also, it was so cool how Aslan bought the soldiers back as well as Mr. Tummus. It was interesting these little character moments that helped either the main characters or minor ones evolve. I do agree that it could be executed better. The irony: came to hear about Alice in wonderland, but came out talking about Narnia.

[@proteekbasu5691]

the fact that this film got popular + a sequel and TRON: Legacy didn't makes me so mad

[@alexchampagne3577]

100% agree. I kinda think of TRON: Legacy as a sequel already but I wish there was definitely another

[@jspaingreene6350]

Wow - well said. That goes straight to the point.

[@ridgenyan-botxv367]

The fact that the tron franchise itself is so underrated/underappreciated baffles me. It's so COOL but Disney can't help but sweep it under the rug any chance they get

[@proteekbasu5691]

@@ridgenyan-botxv367 possibly Disney's most unique property, it's a mix between the matrix and blade runner and it deserves love and a sequel

[@DaveRichardsonFitness]

I would love to see Alice done in the Beetlejuice style - Creepy big costumes and weird faces, rather than CGI everything. Also, Mars Attacks used CGI a lot but not to the point where it was overwhelming

[@nerdalysis]

Like you said, I can applaud Tim Burton for attempting to make his live action adaptation different from the animated film. At least it doesn’t come off as a blatant cash grab, like the live action Lion King does.

[@SaiScribbles]

When I first saw this movie years ago I told my brother “the movie was just okay and then it completely fell apart once Johnny Depp came in” and he said “that’s the first time I’ve heard anyone say that about Johnny Depp in a movie”. I think that was the start of the Depp downward spiral.

[@VesnaVK]

I love the books. I love Tim Burton, usually. I hate this movie. It makes me feel bad inside.

[@ishaanwankhade4834]

When I say “Cap” You say “tain Midnight is one of the best people who talk about films and tv shows on KZbin with some awesome editing” CAP

[@pip7967]

Captain midnights ending commercials come too soon :/

[@valenarizio4313]

tain Midnight is one of the best people who talk about films and tv shows on KZbin with some awesome editing

[@chaoticsludge]

I remember loving this movie when it came out. Not super into it now, but I still do kinda like it

[@jasperswarp]

I’m a bit of a fan of Alice in Wonderland, but I completely avoided both Tim Burton movies, I just can’t get past the Mad Hatter makeup and design, weird eyes, chalk white skin and too much colour.

[@MonzterMichelle]

Big Eyes showed me that Tim Burton still has stories to tell and a vision that is chock full of charisma, uniqueness, nerve and talent but he still wants to cling to his mega blockbuster status and ends up being a parody of himself in these weird CG films that aren't even original stories/ideas or even worse, they're ideas that he doesn't even like.

[@gilljoy7427]

I have to say, I genuinely enjoyed this movie.

[@vicky.sc.1549]

I heard you mentioned Speed Racer at the beginning and wanted to see if you made a video about it… I noticed you haven’t and would love to see your review of it! I feel like you do a really good job pointing out pros and cons of movies so I would really love to see what you have to say about Speed Racer!

[@upsetstudios1819]

Does anyone remember the "Once Upon a Time In Wonderland" show or was that just a weird thing I hallucinated

[@markchapman6800]

I never saw it, but I was a fan of _Once Upon a Time_ and heard about the spin-off, which only had one season.

[@davidkonevky7372]

Honestly this movie sounds like a masterpiece compared to other current remakes

[@RazorRevenge]

I remember being so excited to see this movie. I was 15 and crazy into Alice in Wonderland (the animated Disney film, the book, literally anything revolving around it) I was counting down the months, weeks and days until the film was released. I even got my friends to dress up with me to go see it opening night. I watched ThreadBanger to make the Mad Hatter’s hat and wore it with my My Chemical Romance Black Parade jacket and had the funky colorful eyeshadow. It was such a fun time in my life I wish I could go back to. No words could explain how disappointed was for Through The Looking Glass 💔

[@hiair]

Definetively the box office success of that abomination was entirely thanks to the novelty of the now dead 3D.

[@L16htW4rr10r]

I like the second movie. I think the theme of family just always gets me

[@akhilraman8379]

Fast and furious is the film for you

[@henith7850]

Vin diesel: FAMILY!

[@Tacom4ster]

Tim mostly mostly just go through the motions now Here's another neat review of this movie

[@NelsonStJames]

It's actually amazing the number of films that have grossed over a billion at the box-office that in retrospect aren't very good films at all and have little to no rewatch value, and that few people ever mention. Even more amazing when you consider that some of the most beloved, oft-quoted, game changing films of all time didn't come close to a billion during their run in theaters.

[@chadfurlong2919]

The thing I remember most about this is Alice crossing the Red Queen's moat by hopping on the heads floating in it. Like...jesus christ that's pretty dark for Disney.

[@frankg1969]

You should talk about the new rick and morty episode i think its the first good episode since maybe the second one

[@reuben03]

you realise he has an episode on why he thinks the second episode is bad right

[@frankg1969]

@@reuben03 yeah i know that why i said “ i think” cause its my opinion

[@misterzygarde6431]

Unrelated but a film that outright mocked live action remakes would be cool. You know the Dastardly and Muttley comic from DC has alternate versions of the duo and their crew from the Dastardly and Muttley spinoff fight a plane that went around and turned people into cartoons? Imagine if an adaptation involved the inverse. Dastardly and Muttley are cartoon characters who along with their crew, have to shoot down a plane that’s turning all the cartoons into live action.

[@StudioInkblot]

Wow, that's a DC Hanna Barbara comic that got forgotten about

[@grapejuice8595]

I remember there were rumors of a live action remake of Shrek a few years back and I think that would be a perfect outlet for this.

[@jonathangimenos9777]

Looks like Johnny Depp in this movie was acting like Jack Sparrow dressed as The Mad hatter

[@vernyulkisasszony4708]

Charlie and Chocolate Factory is one of my favourite movies. Alice already felt overrated for me, when it came out.

[@seankovacs4917]

I have a soft spot for this, i grew up with it

[@GeorgeMarionerd]

I remember loving both of those movies. The second one especially was very bizarre and interesting.

[@itsaUSBline]

For how CG can be used really well, the films of David Fincher are a great case study. You generally don't even notice that his films tend to be mostly CG because it's integrated so seamlessly.

[@mahti8133]

The first one holds a warm place in my heart. The second one I never really got into tho

[@jusk8lp]

I was pretty disappointed in this film. On one hand, it delivered visually, painting a beloved classic with the Burton aesthetic that I came to know and love, but some creative choices like the narrative, some actors' performances (particularly Wasikowska and Depp) made the whole thing bland and messy. Also the thing with Alice becoming a colonialist in the end made me cringe.

[@highwind1991]

I've never been the biggest Tim Burton fan. He's made a couple things that I've enjoyed but it actually blows my mind that he was capable of making a masterpiece like Ed wood, because I find myself really not caring about a lot of what he made before or after that movie. He literally made a masterpiece and peaked in 1994. And unfortunately, it doesn't seem like he'll ever reach that creative peak ever again

[@thecinematicmind]

To this day at my local cinema multiplex, the screen I attend had the longest queue for any film all around the theatre. The disappointment I had was an understatement.

[@ivantothemax]

I saw it in theaters in 3D and it was so awful that I ended up spilling my popcorn and hot dog all over myself 😭😭😭

[@jewboi2137]

It's basically a lottery with xD i forgot about this movie existing in the same universe as i do, but here comes Captain Midnight explaining in detail it's legacy.

[@morri254]

i love Burtons aesthetic, i like Johnny Depp. I also wanted to see this darker take on Alice in Wonderland because i liked America McGees gothic take on it. i even liked elements from the sequel which presented a more nuanced take on both queens - a lot of people hate when we humanise disney villains because pure evil is so much fun, but i always enjoy it. very few villains in real life believe they're actually the bad guy and empathy for people acting in negative ways isn't a bad thing to teach, people who are in pain act out and sometimes trying to understand that is often the way to make peace, a lesson more useful for kids than assuming that someone who wrongs you must be a 2 dimensional hatemonger. but i feel like Burton and Depp have become so close to each other that they don't think critically of each others creative input and performance. they've made so much magic together and they've pushed a lot of boundaries but i think it has lead to an environment where they are saying yes to everything like it all has to work.i would also question whether the studio was pushing to 'Jack Sparrow' this production hoping to bank off of Depps box office draw; as in, it might not have been completely in Burtons control which may be why some of Depps performance seems superfluous and tacked on. there either needs to be less people in the room or at least one more person prepared to challenge bad ideas. this is a movie that i wish i could love. but i got 2/3s in and honestly, i had lost interest in what was going on..

[@Tarotlynx]

You're describing an echo chamber. Good point.

[@picahudsoniaunflocked5426]

4:00 dang that Talking Dog looks like he escaped Polar Express. Aw. poor doggo...

[@Squishy_Seal]

Tbh, I love the take on the Mad Hatter here. He is the only reason I rewatch the movie sometimes.

[@markchapman6800]

4:24 "For a film with Wonderland in the title..." One thing that irritated me about this film was one of the characters self-righteously declaiming a line to the effect of "this place is really called Underland!" (I forget who, or the exact line, and I'm not going back to this time thief to find out), which is both a pet peeve of mine ("What does the stupid creator know about their own creation?") and possibly symptomatic of the malaise underlying the whole film.

[@mirthfulArtist]

Like a sort of weird disrespect or misunderstanding of the source material.

[@hunterolaughlin]

I think Wonderland being called “Underland” is a reference to how Lewis Carroll originally titled the manuscript of Alice’s Adventures in Wonderland as “Alice’s Adventures Underground”.

[@markchapman6800]

@@hunterolaughlin Maybe, but I doubt it. To me it reeks of "this isn't your *grandfather's* Alice!"

[@marinaserina2658]

I loved this movie and I still do, although i realize its flaws more now. As a young girl when it came out, I liked the weirdness and the fact that a young lady is at the center of this successful blockbuster film which, lets be honest, is still rare today. It really executes dark fantasy in a way that a lot of media tried to do since but failed

[@michiel1162]

I like it as a guy. Even tho some people hate it i was so impressed by the cgi

[@MacNCheezeWhiz]

I thought I was boring as all hell, like Snow White and the Huntsman

[@Whalewraith]

If you haven't seen it you should try and catch Alice by Jan Swankmajer a truly memorable version with live action but all the weird stuff being done in stop motion. Might have played into Burton strengths better if he had gone this route. Late 80's film.

[@TerribleTake]

I must be in a minority because I really love this movie and Johnny depp in it!

[@GabybelieberMcCan]

same

[@ajiananapier25]

i'm in the minority on this one, but this version of alice in wonderland was my favorite movie when i was a child and i don't think it's that bad. i watched this and the 1951 version religiously, and i never gave much thought to the visuals or compared it to the other tim burton films i had seen at that point (corpse bride, catcf). but i was still familiar with burton's dark and whimsical style and i thought (still think) it worked very well with this movie. maybe i'm "blinded by nostalgia" but i do not think this movie is bad enough to warrant the amount of hate it gets, because it could have been far worse.

[@ChocoBeanChat]

Top 50?! I can’t even get my book BlueEclipse on Amazon at the top 10000

[@RfdsRs]

Please, make a video about Tim Burton's "Miss Peregrine's Home" adaptation

[@jacobpetersdesigns]

I actually loved this movie. I never truly enjoyed the first animated Alice, so this felt like a delightful remix that truly felt different. And I actually felt the whole aesthetic was really unique. The plot/message was weak, but otherwise, this is one of Disney's favorite adaptations of animated movies. Mostly because it's not a simple retelling of the story in live-action form. And that's huge to me. Cause when a live-action movie is just a direct retelling, that sends the message that animation is for kids, not everyone. That's just IMO.

[@mr.moviemafia]

I’ve really grown to enjoy Tim Burton’s “Alice in Wonderland” for how unique and Burton-y of a take it is, especially compared to other, more cookie cutter live-action remakes recently

[@BoxOKittens]

you didn't watch the video, did you. He says how it follows a cookie-cutter formula several times, and it does.

[@need4speed5353]

This movie is why we got Her Name Is Alice by Shinedown so I appreciate the movie lol

[@jamielamie2229]

have you done a cheers video ? I can't find it

[@redraptorwrites6778]

Tim Burton is super overrated and really belongs to the category of "stuff for teenage girls trying to be quirky". And seeing Johnny Depp try to relive Jack Sparrow over and over again gets old really fast.

[@jneilson7568]

He's better when he isn't doing the wacky-yet-typical Tim Burton formula. Big Eyes and Ed Wood were great. The rest of it, well, the college humour sketch sums it up kzbin.info/www/bejne/mHfdfYWGbcpnrKc

[@aadityachangayil6907]

The trailers for the movie scared me as a kid. It gave me the creeps when I was alone and at night. I expected the movie to be scary and beautifully whimsical. When I was older, I saw the movie, it felt boring and generic. The marketing made the Mad Hatter look like a creepy, devious anti-villain tricker. The one we got felt really stupid and annoying, and not in an endearing way.

[@devincreislerstudios]

Thank you for the Vincent reference. I just watched it for the first time and enjoyed it.