The Bad Batch & The Inherent Weakness of Clone Armies

[@Charlie-js8rj]

One key advantage of the clone army that remains criminally underestimated is logistics Every single soldier can use an identical set of armor, eat the exact same nutrient paste (without losing morale), every single vehicle or transport can be made to exactly fit the height and weight of the clones without variation. This massively simplifies the logistics of getting them out to battle and keeping them equipped while there. While it's probably much more complex, this is just a pretty simple overview of that fact

[@alwaysonyourtail2563]

@Tesla-Effect longistics for a robot army would be greatly different than a living one. like no need for food or living space, and energy packs should be easy to come by if your flying around in space

[@gamejunky3040]

@@alwaysonyourtail2563 don’t forget about maintenance.

[@Northraider123]

@Tesla-Effect even more so for droids i'd say! im of the opinion that (from a logistic POV) droids are the best. Consider the MTT for example it can hold 112 droids in a fairly compact area add in the fact you dont need to worry about food (their gonna have equipment to recharge their stuff regardless) and you have from the logictic pov a near perfect army...just need to give them the 40k lasgun and the droids would be basically self sufficient ....for their infantry at least

[@realityapostasy2158]

that is even more important given that the republic army would have been composed of various alien species, which would have been a logistical nightmare.

[@CollinBuckman]

@@gamejunky3040 the CIS sure didn't really care about maintenance when it came to Battle Droids lol, cheaper for them to be scrapped and recycled into new droids than to worry about repairs.

[@LedosKell]

*"Officially... there never was a clone rebellion on Kamino."*

[@casualredditor9918]

hello there

[@Penguinmanereikel]

Well, there *was* Slick, but that wasn’t one Kamino

[@laststand6420]

Ahh yes, my least favorite mission of Battlefront 2.

[@AxelPaul307]

"Unofficially...a special detachment of the Imperial 501st Legion was dispatched to Kamino, with orders to eradicate an army of clones that had been bred to take arms against the Empire."

[@jeremyoleary5788]

I now imagine that the rebellion on Kamino is all just a cover up from what truly happen

[@Jandau85]

Counterpoint - Clone Armies provide consistent performance throughout all their units, making strategic planning and projection of outcomes much easier for the generals commanding it. And the Clones in SW were often commanded by non-clone generals, specifically by Jedi.

[@jakespacepiratee3740]

You make a good point. All of these "this thing bad" videos feel similarly short-sighted. For example, the Banished video...we have barely seen the Banished, and a strategy game aint the best place to set of their lore, but they tried regardless. I would save judgements about them until Halo Infinite is out.

[@leedowdy5661]

I would also say their were also different classes and types of clones who would have recieved different training.

[@Ilbram_Harker]

It is noted however that the Jedi were not good generals, some exceptions withstanding. Geonosis for example, the decision was made to make the engagement an attritional one instead of striking the most valuable/vulnerable strategic assets the CIS planet side.

[@Jandau85]

@@Ilbram_Harker True, but that has little bearing on the performance of the clone army itself. Shitty generals will perform poorly regardless of the quality or reliability of their troops

[@LordCommander-ui2fw]

Agreed. One way to maintain this advantage while including greater diversity and flexibility would have been to create multiple bloodlines of clones from different templates, not just from the Jango Fett genome. To be sure, Jango was an excellent soldier and leader, a proud son of the Mandalorian traditions, but others could have also been recruited to both ensure a constant supply of genetic material and encourage greater diversity and individuality among the ranks of the clones.

[@ninjabreadman8166]

Inherent weakness of clone armies? If they are all cloned from the same stock, I would say a biological weapon could wreck them all if it can wreck one lol

[@EmpPeng2k7]

I thought of that one as well

[@steamysteamer9711]

@@EmpPeng2k7 The first book in the republic commando series covers that

[@EmpPeng2k7]

@@steamysteamer9711 thats good. sadly not read a SW novel since the post vong war with the bugs really turned me off the EU, then Disney came along and well I have moved onto other interests. but im glad they tried that cause its something the separatists would try

[@SymbioteMullet]

Like, say, FOXDIE? Imagine if the clone wars were waged with a million solid snakes...

[@Jon_EL]

That's true they could also just use poison since they had robot soldiers on the other side

[@CM-ux9yh]

I’d argue that the Grand Army of the Republic is an example of what happens when “Strength in Diversity” is applied to a clone army, and under the Jedi, the Republic’s Clone Troops really pushed just how far they could go in terms of difference. Clones developed individual identities, their own unique quirks and personalities, their own opinions and convictions. Not every Clone had the same experiences, either in training or in full service, not every one had the same training, the same intended role, or the same assignment. Despite being an army of genetically-identical individuals, no one man was the same as any other, whether in the way he spoke, fought, or thought. As “The Clone Wars” series demonstrated, the Clones could themselves come up with radically different approaches to problems, and express differing, personal motivations and priorities in their own through process. As such, while I do agree that the idea of a Clone army would unavoidably have the very drawbacks that are outlined in the video, I think that the Clones of the Grand Army of the Republic do an admirable job of mitigating a lot of the shortcomings, at least when under the Jedi. Perhaps the most succinct way of expressing this is in the words of the Clones themselves. If we examine how they addressed one another, the word most often used is “Brother.” Not “Clone,” not “Soldier,” not anything that would imply some sort of interchangeable nature, but “Brother.” They thought of themselves (and their compatriots) as individuals, members of a large-yet-close family, surely, but individuals nonetheless. They weren’t interchangeable to each other, and certainly not to their commanders. Despite the apparent contradictions, they could be considered an example of a diverse force, at least by some definitions. They all operate within the same training paradigm, sure, but the same could be said of any army clone or no, assuming it utilizes some form of standardized training, as most professional forces would. As for the final question...While I think that the average Jem’Hadar would be superior to the average Clone, Ketrecel White dependency seems like too glaring of a weakness to give the Jem’Hadar the win. All other factors being the same, that one issue provides too obvious of an Achilles Heel for a force at a Strategic Level, I’d say.

[@davidbergfors6820]

I had the same point as you, but you expressed way more eloquent! thank you!

[@justinthompson6364]

Training under different officers or in different facilities could probably result in a bit more diverse thought off the get-go, but yeah, the clone army is probably about as diverse as you can get from a mass-produced soldier. As for the latter point, the Jem' Hadar's Ketracel White dependency is a weakness as a species, but I'm not sure it's a very _exploitable_ weakness as an army. Clones will die if they don't get rations too, and the White is the only continuous sustenance the Jem'Hadar need. Functionally speaking, they both need to maintain supply lines for their soldiers to survive. And while theoretically the production facilities for Ketracel White could be targeted, I'm not sure that's a viable strategy. The Dominion was able to set up what they needed in the Alpha Quadrant quickly enough to avoid problems when they were cut off from the Gamma Quadrant, so destroying probably wouldn't accomplish much long-term. There's also the matter of how quickly they can replenish their losses. Even with their accelerated growth, the Clones take years to be combat-ready, while the Jem'Hadar are fully matured and instinctively primed for combat within weeks. On more of a tangent, I'm not sure I agree with the Jem'Hadar even being categorized as a clone army. They're all the same species, sure, and genetically modified for war, but even on the overt physical level there's significant variation between individuals.

[@CM-ux9yh]

@@justinthompson6364 I agree that the Ketracel White issue isn’t much different from any other supply issue, and that it’s severity as a weakness isn’t really that exploitable. I do think it is worth noting, though, that Clones don’t need to only eat their rations, as they can subsist on any food safe for Human Consumption. The Jem’Hadar *need* KW, though, and it can’t be substituted for something else (it is supposed to be a form of control, after all). While I don’t think it’s exploitable in a long-term engagement, shortages can still be detrimental on a strategic level. We see that even on DS9. I do agree that, outside of KW, with the rate at which a Jem’Hadar can be grown and trained is a miniscule fraction of that of a Clone, they would have a huge edge on loss replacement. Attrition warfare would definitely favor the Dominion here, though funnily enough the CIS actually might stand a better chance than the Republic in that case. I don’t know if that would result in a Dominion victory, but yeah, it’s a major leg up. Also, yeah, you hit the nail in the head. The Jem’Hadar aren’t really clones. Engineered, yes. Grown, yes. But...they do exhibit traits of being individual beings, even if they exhibit less actual individualism than the Clones on a person-to-person level.

[@justinthompson6364]

@@CM-ux9yh Yeah, I had considered some advantages to normal food consumption vs. KW dependency. In a pinch clones might be able to sustain themselves by foraging or even seizing local food stores but it's not a great solution. Clones wouldn't suffer from withdrawal if cut of fon a comparatively lush planet like the Jem'Hadar did in that one episode, and on a more developed world a small army might be able to last a while without resupply by eating what they have on hand. Still, foraging can only support so many and seizing supplies is at best a temporary solution, so I decided the difference was mostly negligible. I don't remember remember any instances where KC represented a huge strategic issue (aside from the time the Federation _could have_ destroyed their primary production facility in the quadrant, but that likely wouldn't be possible without the Prophet's intervention), but admittedly I haven't finished the last season yet, so I might be missing something. The CIS certainly may stand a good chance; they might well be one of the strongest SW factions there is, at least if their leadership wasn't deliberately sabotaging them. Based on impressions alone I'm inclined to give the Dominion the edge against the Republic at least, but a serious judgement would have to account for a lot more factors, including tactics, territory, resources, industrial base, existing forces, travel speeds, other important technologies like cloaking, and relative weapons, armor, and shielding technology. Some of these are easy to assess, but others- the last three in particular- can be a headache, since most big sci-fi 'verses have a number of writers with different ideas of how powerful the tech is and/or no idea how the science behind it works, and there isn't a clear decision on which one is truly canon.

[@karkkosvolfe]

An easy solution would be a change to a different control mechanism. Which the Dominion Founders would be more than able to anticipate

[@duo496]

The answer is simple *XENOMORPH ARMY*

[@zagreus1249]

YES

[@sobanred7509]

Great to see this comment lol

[@thepebbleinstitute7702]

*+500% COLLATERAL DAMAGE *

[@LedosKell]

*laughs in K-Series* -Dr. Kadinsky

[@owenlee4080]

It would be the Duolingo owl that would send xenomorphs after me if I miss my German lesson

[@imperialfist2304]

Bad Batch and Templin in one day? There is a god after all.

[@thomaseasley2938]

Yes, and he is the emperor. Or are you a heretic

[@roaringbeardragon4531]

DID YOU JUST DOUBT THE GID EMPEROR?

[@rasmustgraulund2911]

A great one, to be sure

[@gre3nishsinx0Rgold4]

I'm butt a traveller.. who is bad batch.

[@Gigas0101]

There are four of them, and they're all really cool. You should stray from that dumb corpse on a chair you like so much and hang with the really cool astartes, Imperial Fist!

[@cameronpearce5943]

As a Star Wars fan I think it’s funny how being even slightly competent in the Star Wars universe makes you some kind of strategic genius or legendary warrior.

[@thepurpleapple]

Thrawn as a case in point.

[@Aristocles22]

@@thepurpleapple He's a LOT more than "slightly" competent. He was pretty much the best admiral they had.

[@thepurpleapple]

@@Aristocles22 and he was still terrible really, massive blind spot around emotional connections, failed in both legends and canon. Any decent Admiral should have been able to do as much as him.

[@Aristocles22]

@@thepurpleapple To be fair, those don't come up in war very often.

[@morganrobinson8042]

That's pretty much the basis of heroic fiction; the lionization of the best among us as exemplars, larger than life. Being better than average and lucky inflated to divine skill and favor. It's hyperbolic, but reflects our understanding more than the universe. Either ours or theirs.

[@SeymoreTheDisappointed]

If they thought having too many clones like this would make it harder to get rid of them in the end they could have just implanted bombs in their heads along with the chips

[@LordCoeCoe]

That's a really good point ngl.

[@me67galaxylife]

That would pose it’s own problems

[@SeymoreTheDisappointed]

@@me67galaxylife yes but only one inhibitor cheap went awry, also they don't need to be massive explosions just small enough to make it seem like they had a brain aneurysm

[@gotmil11]

hacking like that in ghost in a shell

[@SeymoreTheDisappointed]

@@gotmil11 never happened to their inhibitor chips though

[@premiergeneralmiller]

In my opinion this mainly comes down to training and experience of an army. The clones while having near identical upbringing still displayed a large degree of autonomy and creative thinking, since this was a main reason to use them over droids and some like Fives were promoted because of it. True a lot of this can be credited to the Jedi and just life experience as the war dragged on, but it shows the same ability to learn, adapt, and react as anyone else. And despite being engineered to follow orders clearly they were deemed to have enough agency that a chip had to be put in their heads to make sure they complied with Order 66. The problems with creative thinking can be applied with any army made up of people who know nothing except that environment. The First Order Stormtroopers being child soldiers raised in the army probably have the same issue. Even some of the Jedi show a lack of critical thinking and strict adherence to doctrine and look what happened to them. And even with a relatively diverse army like the Galactic Empire Stormtrooper Corps it didn't really matter because Imperial Army doctrine demanded strict adherence to a "you don't matter, just follow orders" mindset in the extreme more so than even the GAR. While yes the clones are identical genetically this doesn't seem to hinder them developing as unique a personality as regular people. Also the Jem'Hadar beating the Grand Army of the Republic? Sounds like something a changeling infiltrator would say... "It's treason then" *incoherent screeching*

[@giorgiomezzanzanica3693]

Golden

[@clothar23]

Wait people think a bunch of junkies could beat a bunch of clones ?

[@CosmicFearUkulele]

@@clothar23 these junkies as you put it are fierce and brutal warriors. They are born and raised to fight in a matter of days. They grow from a fetus to an adult in a matter of days. Not to mention that they can cloak. This made them a threat to Starfleet, Klingon and Romulan troops. With Klingons being a warrior race. They’re extremely loyal as well, they’ll fight to the death.

[@clothar23]

@@CosmicFearUkulele Loyal they're only Loyalty is to a proprietary drug only their Masters can make. As for combat ability they've shown anyone with half a brain can out manoeuvr and out think them. Their rapid growth cycle only inhibits their tactical and strategic prowess. Since those are things only time can teach you.

[@CosmicFearUkulele]

@@clothar23 when offered the option of freedom, they refused. As for outmaneuvering them, good luck as they have enhanced eyesight and sensor technology and have deployed tactics that fooled Starfleet, take AR558. Not to mention that they can cloak.

[@abeherbert6603]

This was probably what Sidious considered when he set the Clone Wars into motion. He knew that an army of clones would be easy to manipulate and bend to his master plan, but still *just* have an edge against their opponent, an army of droids.

[@Paul-A01]

I always thought the real purpose of the clone army was to kill Jedi. Being organic, the Jedi could sense them with the force, and feel they could trust them, and because they were brainwashed, the Jedi would never sense malicious intent from them until the order was given.

[@silentgladiam2096]

@@Paul-A01 That but also a clone "mercenary" loyal army has something more. The republic (and separatists) could simply made a conscription to field way larger armies but they didn't. Why ? Because it would have increased war weariness, something Palpatine didn't want as he needed the war to be as long as possible for him to grab absolute power.

[@Mikey-xz4vn]

I just wanted to say: Sweet Casiopea profile pic

[@NODnuke45]

Yeah, I think it's important for people to keep in mind while going into details about the clone wars era that the whole thing was pretty much rigged from the start and masterminded by Palpatine. He basically was playing both sides since the CIS leadership ultimately answered to him through Dooku whether they knew it or not, and Palpatine must have had other pawns in the CIS leadership as well knowing he was going to get rid of Dooku. Since Palpatine also held the single position with the most power in the Republic as Chancellor, he also could heavily influence the way they ran the war and manipulate their strategies as well. Knowing this, and knowing the kind of long term strategy Palpatine was employing, it's safe to assume that Palpatine knew exactly what kind of conditions and pieces in play he would want to execute his strategy before the war even started. The CIS was never going to win, because they were designed to lose in the long run, quite literally in the case of the droids. The clones could never be allowed to disobey orders, no matter how harsh they were, because they would need to be able to kill anyone following orders to do so, even people who might have been close to them, at a moments notice. I think it is more accurate to view the clone wars keeping this perspective in mind, that is, Palpatine's perspective, and it seems far too often that people overlook this when examining what happened in the clone wars.

[@demonprinces17]

The clones were just biological droids

[@ayylmaoh6280]

The only inherent weakness of clones is that Fives was killed by one.

[@caad5258]

ooooffff.

[@flowerthencrranger3854]

Massive oof, now you made my day sad.

[@plaguedoctorjamespainshe6009]

Fuck them couruscant guard clones

[@nutterbotter8308]

@@plaguedoctorjamespainshe6009 fuck shock troopers all my homies hate shock troopers

[@LucyWest370]

@@nutterbotter8308 no u

[@swedishplayer97]

Except the clones in the Clone Wars repeatedly demonstrate different personalities, intelligence and problem-solving skills. Captain Rex, Cody, Wolffe, Echo, Fives, Gregor and more all manage to think on the fly and come up with creative solutions to problems. They are identical in body, but not in mind. There's also ARC troopers, Clone Commandos and commanders who are promoted thanks to their intuition and unique problem solving skills alongside their brawn. Echo and Fives were made ARC troopers thanks to their quick-thinking and abilities.

[@draconisthewyvern3664]

minor quirks like them were pursued and put down with extreme prejudice till the jedi as a whole said no. ARC troopers frankly without jedi intervention would’ve all been put down. the “commandos” and “commanders” all had to be taught to be more independent

[@MrSwccguy]

Something that had to be taught, as organic army would beat them.

[@tTaseric]

The fact that Clones with problem solving skills were placed into a specialist regiment is kinda proving his point

[@tTaseric]

@@cpob2013 Can I get a source on that last point? Also, what the fuck is the 'filoniverse'? Do you just mean the canon shows?

[@ObligedUniform]

@@tTaseric some people are still SUPER salty about niche bits of the canon, even without the post RoTJ stuff. Best to not get roped in.

[@kevinshepardson1628]

One of the bigger advantages of a clone army akin to the GAR is the ease of providing standardized equipment. Every weapon, every tool, every garment, every piece of armor, every vehicle seat - they can all be made to perfectly fit the near-identical bodies of the clone soldiers. No need to make armor or uniforms in multiple sizes then have to worry about having enough of the right size for the soldiers you get.

[@markn6237]

Definitely Jem’Hadar for “Victory is LIFE!”

[@charlesford7887]

Obedience brings victory, and victory is life!

[@giovannirodriguesdasilva646]

For the glory of the Founders

[@giovannirodriguesdasilva646]

Not to mention that they are ready for war in 3 days after being born

[@thomasalvarez6456]

I heard they fought well, for a spiritual people.

[@Tzilandi]

''Our death is glory to the Founders.'' - Remata'Klan, ''Rocks and Shoals''.

[@ElladanKenet]

Just imagine if Jango Fett had a severe peanut allergy

[@optillian4182]

The droid army would be using peanut-flavoured gas as a bioweapon. lol

[@CucumberSadness]

Clone armies have the advantage of being a great way for a small population to field a huge army. Depending on the tech and cost of a clone they could be soldiers that are disposable, cheap and quick to produce. Make sure there are a variety of clones and that they are led by skilled tacticians who are not clones or are clones who have lived a long life and seen many different things and that is great. Maybe clones are expensive. Maybe you are cloning Master Chief or Shepard, some sort of unstoppably skilled hero who has died. Mayhe you clones them 30 times. Suddenly, that is 30 operations that can be performwd at once in 30 different zones, that would be impossible for anyone else. Sure each clone cost billions to produce. But when one of these people could turn the tables of an intergalactic war, thirty of them are going to do so much more.

[@ethansmith7263]

I feel like in a longer war the clones would win out over the Jem'hadar. There were multiple episodes of DS9 where the jem'hadar's addiction was what brought them down and I'd imagine the Clone troopers would be able to figure that out and exploit it over a long enough conflict. Individual battles though probably go to the jem'hadar

[@mehmarcus1995]

Instead of having one template for all clones in the Grand army of the republic, maybe a wide variety of templates where clones get mixed into? Five, Ten, Fifty or Five-hundred templates? Some more rare than others, or prone to certain maluses or boons depending on said template, that have all been trained the same way?

[@HolyknightVader999]

That's what they did in the Empire in the Legends era.

[@blacktemplar2323]

You could address many of the problems with clone armies by having multiple subtypes of clones specially designed for different purposes. You don't have to use the same clone for every position. You could have designated Officer clones, NCO Clones, etc.

[@DarthRadical]

You probably wouldn't want officer clones. Have the enlisted be clones (potentially a few specialized varieties) but have the officers be normal humans. That way your army actions at the tactical & strategic level don't become predictable.

[@davidbergfors6820]

this is exactly what the Grand army of the Republic did, during the series we encounter a vast number of specialized troops, like the ARC, scout and snow.

[@blacktemplar2323]

@@davidbergfors6820 yes, but they were still clones of Jango. What i meant were more distinct and specialised clones, possibky based on other donors or specially modified.

[@KageRyuu6]

Diversity is a double edged sword, it brings with it a wide range of life experiences, which can be useful, but it also brings a wide range of ideologies together, some of which can be dynamically opposed, which is why basic training is designed to be physically, mentally, and emotionally exhausting, essentially tearing down the new recruits to remake them into a cohesive fighting unit through their shared experience and leaving them with few other means of stress relief than confiding with their brothers and sisters in arms, so that they view one another as kin.

[@celticireland5697]

For the Republic

[@draconisthewyvern3664]

“i strike for all clones! we are the republic’s slaves!”

[@celticireland5697]

@@draconisthewyvern3664 it's treason then

[@nerowulfee9210]

Jango clones had one big advantage: they we're versatile. Its good to be able to train fighter pilots from line infantry pool, same for tankers and other specialists.

[@jameshuke354]

I think this weakness is more down to training/ childhood of the clones. If they were given more free rein and a variety of experiences, they'd be more individualized. We can see this happen through the clone war anyway, but it would be better if it happened before deployment.

[@defender9200]

I think the war itself would give the clones that diversity of mind and spirit they need to adapt and overcome. That's why they all charged forwards in the battle of Geonosis, but began to flank around the sides, using different weapons and equipment. The clones were entirely equipped with the DC-15A Blaster Rifle at the start of the war, but clones found the DC-15S Blaster Carbine to be a superior weapon and made the change, despite the fact the DC-15A is better on paper.

[@tredegar4163]

I have to disagree for the following reasons. “Out of every one hundred men, ten shouldn’t even be there, eighty are just targets, nine are the real fighters, and we are lucky to have them, for they make the battle. Ah, but the one, one is a warrior, and he will bring the others back.” Heraclitus Dave Grossman’s research further fleshed out this idea, we have come a long way in training people to be able to get over the psychological desire to not kill, however Price’s law also applies to combat, a small percentage of people do the vast majority of the killing. If you find people for whatever reason genetically that are gifted with the predisposition to endure combat, cloning them several times over will have a more effective fighting force. Also as illustrated in the book Outliers people who dedicate themselves to a craft, like warfare, tend to get very good at it. Before a person can creatively break the rules they must first master the rules. All life experience is not created equal, your time as a Starbucks barista isn’t going to help strategically outmaneuver the enemy.

[@texasPITBULL54]

Very true and the romans and swiss showed great examples of discipline and constant drill and mastery of the small things is what them so affective. Along with musketry warfare doing it by the numbers and hard drilling was a big part in army being successful.

[@lordfrostwind3151]

I'm going to have to give Grossman a read, that sounds like interesting research.

[@tredegar4163]

@@lordfrostwind3151 The book I’m specifically referring to is called On Killing. The TLDR is that previously most soldiers didn’t want to kill, they found American Civil War muskets that were reloaded over all over again without being fired. This was overcome with using human like targets instead of round targets; this inoculated the soldiers to be able to shoot at people. Video games work much the same way, the games don’t make people homicidal, but inoculate against the aversion of killing others.

[@texasPITBULL54]

@@tredegar4163 the other issue about soldiers reloading without firing was also fear and not being drilled enough and panic setting in so the forgot to put the percussion cap and when firing in a line they thought they had fired too. But yes the British army did a study in the 19th century to determine how close they had to be to be affective and knew that in combat half of what was on target would be misses because they knew a certain number of men would fire high not wanting to kill a neither human. But they knew veterans would aim at the enemy or those who had survived a battle would too.

[@rainick]

This assumes that small percentage of people is actually caused by genetics. It might or might not. It could only be a small factor, or a big one.

[@owenparris7490]

With Operation Eagle coming to Iron Harvest, would it be possible for the Institute to cover the proud nation of Usonia? I know we don't have much lore on them, but I think it'd still be cool.

[@dashiellgillingham4579]

The most inherent weakness of any insufficiently diverse group is that whatever defeats one of them defeats all of them. Even the original star wars film illustrates this when the Empire refuses to even acknowledge the reality that their Death Star has a weakness, and loses on a massive scale because no-one has both the mindset and authority to go 'hey, wait, we have a problem!' They lost the first Death Star because even non-clones were not diverse enough to win.

[@ovencake523]

and the original design was made with a weakness

[@FarremShamist]

@@ovencake523 to be fair, that weakness was not one they were expecting to be exploited--I mean, you NEEDED a jedi to land that shot, and they didn't even consider that one would make it to the exhaust port. Given... They kinda committed a bit of a genocide against other force users.

[@oldmandeath]

To add to what I am sure many have said, its where legends shines a bit more than disney cannon but both show this. The Kaminoans or the Republic ended up hiring mercs to train their troopers. While jango did have say on some stuff ultimetly it was said you could tell which mercs taught what class of clones. You approach this thought excersice as if clones can't grow or change. That is what makes them, at least in Star Wars, better than droids is their ablity to grow. Even with soldiers recurited from regular people a green and fresh army will have the same exact issues a fresh clone army would. It comes down to how well you can train them and how much variety you can train them in. After that its up to their experiences in battle to finish doing what trianing cant. As for the jem'hadar vs the GAR. Soldier for soldier, taking out the weaponery and tech which is all over the place for both of them, I think the GAR would come out on top more than not. Simply because you don't see Jem'hadar grow they were made to be automotons not to have independant thoughts. Is why when in DS9 one actually starts thinking for himself its such a big deal. Its not something that usually happens. However with the GAR we see each clone army start to get specialized to learn from their battles, their ability to adapt.

[@CandCfans101]

My biggest issue with the clone army is one of cost: As the state needs to bear the cost of raising each one from birth, they end up being much more expensive per person then a volunteer army. If either side of the clone wars started levying a more traditional professional army to support their elite clone/battle droid units, they would have been much more effective.

[@joezhou622]

One of the reason why clone army would be used across fiction is that it provides a source of recruitment without tapping into your population. It is obvious that in a total war like this, unless there is a ridiculous population difference, a volunteer army is never going to be enough, and conscription must be introduced to fulfill the manpower demand. Beyond forcing people who don't want to fight into a war, conscription also have the issue of taking away your labor pool and burning it in the fire of war instead of producing rifles at the rear. The result of mass conscription can be seen during and after the two world wars, that many participant's male population was drained so much that there might not be enough people for the jobs required to repair the economy. A clone army allows a state, especially those small fictional state who has highly advanced technology but not much population, to field an army just as large as their enemy without losing most of their skilled and unskilled workforce. Although in this case it is odd that the republic never actually trained that much clone troopers. Somehow a few million soldiers was enough for an ENTIRE galaxy.

[@Tzryylon5]

"It's the Jem'Hadar" The Jem'Hadar: please don't cut off our one access to your warzone or commit literally only one war crime against our gods or we'll lose

[@Jdne199311]

If you opening move is to suicide into a Glaxay Class, then, the Jem'hedar is going to win.

[@bradythurman7640]

Look at Steve Rogers, his prior weakness gave him the knowledge of the true value of strength that others lacked to be Captain America

[@artificialgravitas8954]

The Jem'Hadar, while they are all cloned they do not seem to be all clones of a single strain and the founders regularly and actively seem to fiddle with the code to make them more adaptable to their situation and enemies

[@blekkster]

Before writing my own science fiction (likely with an emphasis on war) I hope to learn as much as I can about good world building from sources such as the Templin Institute. Just watched "First Order Reimagined" and I realize I have alot to learn. Thanks and keep up the great work!

[@laststand6420]

Just watched the bad batch. I was preparing to be let down, instead I was very pleased. I think Dave and the crew are going to make another great star wars show. Anyone else here like the show?

[@TemplinInstitute]

God help me, I kinda liked it too.

[@grisom5863]

I find your lack of faith disturbing.

[@briankirkpatrick8888]

Rather than just "There are many problems to solve, and diversity helps you find the best solution," I think it's important to note that the problem being solved is sentient, and solving you right back. What I mean is, the enemy only really has to understand one profile to predict every one of your soldiers. They know their exact weight - expect finely tuned land mines that won't trigger for anyone else. They'll know exactly how much the clones can carry, their exact thermal signatures, and exactly how fast they run. If there are visual elements that tends to escape their notice, expect a camouflage system based on it. Even more important is the psychological profile - they'll know what tricks the clones will fall for, when they'll tend to press forward or withdraw, etc. All this applies to droids as well, but at least for those it's easy to push software updates as the need arises - patching tactical bugs. Even hardware issues can be updated with a phased recall and retrofit, more easily than you could do an equivalent with clones.

[@nicholaswalsh4462]

The main factors that win a battle are often distinct from the factors that win a war. There are three distinct levels of thought: Tactical, Operational, and Strategic. At the Tactical Level, the smallest thought level and the one at which battles are fought (I.E. Brecourt Manor), it comes down largely to a combination of Leadership, Individual Skill, and Superiority of Equipment. In a tactical engagement, the more inspiring leader (I.E. Captain Winters at Brecourt Manor) is going to be able to rally his/her troops to rise to the occassion and carry the day. The more skilled soldiers (Easy Company Paratroops at Brecourt Manor) are going to be most able to leverage their skills and esprit de corps to see what needs doing and get it done. And the troops with the better equipment (Easy Company at Brecourt Manor) will be most able to leverage that superiority to deny the enemy an opportunity to seize the initiative. At the tactical level, therefore, it is likely that the Jem'Hadar would lose to a Clone Army unit for the simple reason that the Jem'Hadar show little if any proper leadership qualities or skill. They have plentiful courage and morale and their equipment is very good but they lack anyone with the elan to stand on a trench, wave a hand forward, and shout "FOLLOW ME!" before running off into machine gun fire. The Clone Army, on the other hand, has many examples. Captain Rex, Fives, Echo, Commander Cody, Commander Bly, and likely many more besides. Furthermore, the Clone Army has on many occassions demonstrated a greater degree of tactical flexibility (I.E. skill) in their engagements, both against droids and organic opponents. The Equipment of the GAR, however, won't give them a distinct advantage over the Jem'Hadar, aside from increased operational mobility and tactical firepower (though my issues with GAR equipment must be saved for another time). As such, on the tactical level, it is likely that the Clone Army could engage an equal or greater sized Jem'Hadar unit and come out on top. At the Operational Level, one which generally involves the conduct of campaigns (I.E. Operation Cobra), this one becomes less a question of individual skill and more a question of logistics and administration. Here the skill of overall commanders comes into play. Which general is better able to organize the lines of supply, coordinate the air, naval, and ground forces, and time the movement of divisions? We see in our own world during Operation Cobra that a force of 11 US divisions led by Omar Bradley smashed 8 German divisions in the space of a week by successfully coordinating air and ground forces, adeptly managing supply columns, and precisely timing the movement of divisions. The Germans suffered heavy casualties from which they would not easily recover and much of this defeat was a result not of the individual skill of their soldiers but of operational failures in supply and coordination of air and ground forces. In a conflict between the Jem'Hadar and the GAR, we see a multitude of operational failures in both circumstances. Both armies rely on outside bodies to provide operational control. The Jem'Hadar are subordinated to the Vorta while the GAR is subordinated to Jedi generals. These tend to be leaders with a poor grasp on operational needs or how to properly coordinate the arms. However, were the Jem'Hadar to lose the Vorta and the GAR to lose the Jedi, the GAR would be better able to adapt because they have commanders of greater flexibility. Clone officers such as Rex, and Cody, among others, have demonstrated substantial skill at coordinating disparate forces and organizing matters at the operational level, allowing them to undertake complex operations without the assistance of the Jedi. The Jem'Hadar, however, never really demonstrate any such capacity. Jem'Hadar leaders appear to lack operational forethought or organizational skill and the handful of times we see Jem'Hadar operating without Vorta, their operations are simplistic and generally ineffective. Finally, at the Strategic Level, a level generally involving the conduct of wars, we have a level of thought completely and totally divorced from the individual capabilities of soldiers and weapons. Here the only skill that matters is the ability to coordinate forces and campaigns, the ability to cooperate with other services and allied forces, and the ability to organize and coordinate supply chains. The US military in World War II is an excellent example of Strategic Thought. With George Marshall heading the Army and Ernest King heading the Navy, the ability of the United States to ship men and material to the front and the ability to ensure that the correct men were in place to lead was honed to a near perfect science. From when the first US troops began offensive operations in 1942 to when the war ended in 1945, a noticeable shift can be witnessed, with the American forces going to from overconfident, inexperienced, hopelessly outmatched newcomers to replacing the British as the spearhead of the campaign in Europe and dominating the campaign in the Pacific. To this end, we have little information on the ability of Clone or Jem'Hadar leaders to handle Strategic concerns. Given the trend of Clone troops to being more flexible in their thought processes than the Jem'Hadar, though, it would follow that the GAR would be better able to adapt to the strategic needs of a conflict than the Jem'Hadar.

[@Narutonarutonaruto85]

There are pros and cons to a clone army. One of the ways to try and mitigated one of the cons is to clone more than one person and bring some diversity to the army. It worked more in the Clone Wars because they were fighting a mass produced robot army that might as well of been a different line of clones.

[@caitheoutcastranger]

True but adding more diversity could also turn into a con, just like real life where personalities clash if the clones don’t all manage to link together and form a bond then it could result in friction between the different batches of clones

[@Narutonarutonaruto85]

@@caitheoutcastranger True. Still I'm sure there is a balance to be found.

[@kennyholmes5196]

IMO, if you're gonna have a clone army, you should have multiple genetic templates that are predisposed to different specializations, as well as teachers from many walks of life having the standouts of each template under their purview so that the newly-minted soldiers have as much of a chance to be the best that they can be, regardless of which chamber they were incubated in.

[@memengineer5714]

Finally, i can use midgets for my tanks

[@darkclawgreatonenas]

i actually came up with a mechanized army that acts a great deal like clones, but at the same time, eliminates the vast majority of the weaknesses that both Droids and Clones share, i call them Darkstars, and they have several different types of warriors in their ranks, most of which have modular components that allow them to be adapted to any battlefield role. each unit is an individual and capable of reasoning and learning very rapidly, but each unit is also connected to a vast network with every other unit, letting them all share data nearly instantly. the only unit type that is not modular is a specialized unit for more distasteful tasks, an HK unit known as a Hunter, but they r the monsters of the Darkstar, they will never eat, never sleep, never stop hunting their target until it is eliminated.

[@HolyknightVader999]

"After the Kamino uprising, the Emperor decided that an army of genetically identical soldiers was too susceptible to corruption. Future troopers would be cloned from a variety of templates. Though the 501st itself remained pure, the rest of the Imperial Army gradually became more and more diverse. We never really got used to the new guys." -Anonymous 501st Soldier Journal

[@kokofan50]

Lots of non-clone armies have been completely incapable of independent and original thought. What matters are training (including how a person is raised) and the openness of the militaries to independent thought and action.

[@claasmachens3858]

Pleas offer an example

[@kokofan50]

@@claasmachens3858 North Korea, China, the Royal Navy in the victorian era. During an exercise two RN ships crashed head on into each other because the guy in charge didn’t give the order to turn.

[@claasmachens3858]

@@kokofan50 That is a single person that makes a (big) mistake, but has nothing to do with the army as a whole.

[@kokofan50]

@@claasmachens3858 no, that is just one of example of how rigid the RN had become.

[@claasmachens3858]

@@kokofan50 No that is just a result of military structure. It is not that no body else was able to see it coming, but that they were not alowed to turn or discuss it.

[@danielmorgenstern3942]

Most modern armies have a huge emphasis on discipline (essentially forcing people to give up their unique perspective to obey the orders of a small cadre of leaders)

[@OmegaLittleBob]

Kinda reminds me of the Unnumbered Sons in 40k. Where Gulliman made mixed squads of Astares with marines from every loyalist legion. They complemented each other so well Guliman wondered if the legions weren’t originally meant to be homogeneous. (Or that might have been a fan theory, can’t remember)

[@Sinsystems]

One big advantage I think of Clone armies is in logistics such as equipment standardization and similar things. Since every clone has the exact same body type, the exact same blood type and are pretty much identical in the vast majority of ways in terms of their physical characteristics it means that you can tune your equipment so that it is tailor made for that specific body type without much issue or running into situations like some of your soldiers not being able to use the gear as well due to not having the right sized helmet. Like think of it from the standpoint of a combat medical situation, where one soldier is bleeding out and needs a transfusion now or else he will die. Well with a regular army you have to roll the dice to see if there is someone suitable nearby, not to mention the time lost finding said person. Meanwhile with a clone army you could literally just grab the nearest clone not currently fighting.

[@Ditidos]

That does come with the drawback of say, someone catching an ilness and suddenly your entire army is sick. Not only that, but they are extremely vulnerable to biological warfare, like absurd levels of it, and you just need one member of your army ending up in the hands of your enemy to pull that shit off quick (they don't even really need to engineer a bioweapon, they can test which regular ilness is the worst one for your army and use that, but if they wanted to engineer it, then it will only affect your army and literally no one else which will be carriers of said disease).

[@dust6635]

you would also have to look into teams like the ARC troopers and Clone commando's as they as well would add different variables in any combat situation

[@steamysteamer9711]

Love that amount of content you have been putting out it is amazing!

[@Echo-bo4zs]

As the Clone Wars progressed, each clone found a way to develop their own personalities, characteristics, traits, likings, thinking processes, behaviors, etc - aside from the main character clones we all know, including Fives, Echo, Rex, Cody, etc., even many ordinary clones w/o given names who appeared in the background of a Clone Wars series episode seemed to have some unique part of themselves that set them apart from others. Clones may have been birthed to be the same, but ended up being more diverse than regular, conscripted and enlisted personnel of the later Galactic Empire. It's not just the way clone armor seems to be differently colored and stylized to denote unit of service, or the way the clones have been individually named - there's a lot more to clone diversity. I feel the issues of diversity in the Star Wars clone army are solved then and there. The faults of the clone Grand Army of the Republic in Star Wars, I feel, lies more in the costs of maintaining such a force. The army was more of a small shock corps than a galaxy-spanning army, numbering only in the 3 millions at its peak due to its inherent overburdening price. Although elite, the GAR was unbelievably small and HAD to be deployed in a very careful and tactical manner, choosing which battles to fight, and which to leave to local planetary defense forces; this is inefficient. This is evident in how Palpatine had to take unilateral control of the banks, nationalizing them into the federal government - furthermore, it is mentioned numerous times how the Republic has gone broke. Aside from these plaguing problems, as an army, the GAR was probably the most effective we've been exposed to in the Star Wars universe - just not the most efficient.

[@dudewatches6125]

Imagine that you find a man like Thrawn, a single individual of such incredible skill and capacity in problem solving, that entire worlds of minds might challenge one of his puzzles and fail. Imagine that you create a training regiment that increases and deversifies this natural talent. Imagine that mind, and the training tailored to it, at completion. Now imagine duplicating that, perfectly, again and again. Now you are imagining the ideal clone army. Now you are fielding all Queens, insteas of all pawns. Because if it can be done once, then it can be done again. That is the ideal.

[@smuu1996]

I think in a large WW1-style engangement the main factor which can be looked at to termine whether a clone army or a conscripted army are superior is the average. The average clone is just gonna be a clone, but the average conscripted soldier is a different question. There will be some who are stronger and some who are weaker, some who are smarter and some who less smart. What this then all averages up to is in my opinion the easiest way to dertermine whether a clone army is worth it. If the average Stormtrooper is inferior to the average Clone trooper, then the clone army is the right choice. If the average Clone Soldier would be matched with an entire army of Clone Force 99-level soldiers from a conscripted army, then the conscripted army would be the best choice. Quality of the average is my suggestion.

[@bloodbornduck9536]

Templin institute: “the Jem’hadar would wreck the Galactic republic’s clone army” Me: *laughs in Sontaran*

[@user-Jay178]

Clone army was the best army in the whole saga. Lol. Great video

[@sevenman9672]

Clone forces would seem to be suited to one of two kinds of umbrella scenario: either the sort where emergency troops are needed en masse and the technology is the means of providing them, or perhaps merely in a conflict where strategy has dictated that logistical efficiency and predictability in a conflict spanning vast theatres outweighs the disadvantages, or alternatively the sort where the technology can be put to work in creating an élite force, perhaps for specialised missions or duties, where raw ability and strict training from birth could be key in the creation of special forces for special operations, or replaceable shock troops for heated 'spearhead' operations, who might also work very effectively as a 'stiffener' alongside regular infantry - or, of course, for a reliable guards unit, in a futuristic replication of the ages-old habit of rulers having 'foreign' bodyguards.

[@csongor242]

This is why I like the Legends Galactic empire's army. It (at least on paper) combines the advantages of a clone army and a regular army. Around 50%-of it is made up of multiple clone templates, but the other half is still conscripted regular people. (Even though the empire used lower quality clones, from other sources than Kamino)

[@Dan19870]

With over two thousand years of genetic engineering to the point of near perfection, the Jem’Hadar soldier in service to the Dominion is a force to be reckoned with. Unlike the Clones of the Grand Army of the Republic, the Jem’Hadar are able to camouflage themselves and spring deadly ambushes against unsuspecting enemies. They are certainly worth covering in greater detail in a future Arsenal video.

[@HolyknightVader999]

You never met the Clone Assassins, have you?

[@AMPMASTER10]

The Clones definitely evolved, one of the cores of Jedi philosophy that isn't touched upon in the movies or even the shows is teaching/knowledge. The Jedi funded research into mathematics, physics, geology, xenology, medicine, and archology. They even had a service corps made up of Jedi drop outs and volunteer Padawans, Knights, and Masters who went to worlds newly discovered or recovering from disasters to set up schools and teach the populace. Heck Ashoka did it in the clone wars. The point the Clones fighting under two different generals learned different skills and strategies.

[@rainmanslim4611]

A clone army shouldn't be all copies of 1 unique individual. If I have an army of a million clones, I want every battalion made up of clones from at least 500 gene sets.

[@arsmariastarlight3567]

The main weakness of the clone army is the nature that they are cloned with fighting prowess in mind. They're overspecialized depending on task at hand. If one of them are effective in task A, all of them are equally effective, but if one are bad at task B, then all of them are bad at it. In regular army, soldiers have different quirks and personalities that makes each one unique, so if one are bad at one task, others might not

[@ZCid47]

In my opinion, Clone squads or a special regime is a really good idea. You can have a special force to deal with complicated missions while using some of the best asset's in the army's. O You can use those clones to fullfil some leadership roles with talented and experience troop's. But a army? Is a terrible idea, unless cloning technology is advance enough, the price of creating a army is always goin to be to big to justify (in star wars said army drove the republic to bankruptcy), the morality of the army's is goin to be put into question at some moment. And even if a clone only need 10 years to reach full maturity, is always goin to be quicker to just enlist the population and make civilians go through training.

[@sylvarogre5469]

Who would win, the Grand Army or the Jem'Hadar? Ben Sisko.

[@christopherscott1336]

I'm not so sure that the disadvantages of fielding clone armies are not enough to stop using them. Sheer numbers alone don't mean as much as they used to on the battlefield, but combined with the intense training these soldiers go through, they are certainly just as potent as any other army in large scale warfare. Moreover, the usage of clone troops means that the civilian population is going to be much easier to placate and control. Times may be tough, taxes higher, maybe even some rationing necessary, but at the very least these civilians know they have been spared a draft and their loved ones going off to war. That alone is already a great benefit, but combined with the significant extra industrial benefit on the homefront with all those extra workers, I think clone armies are well worth the downsides.

[@sobanred7509]

Along with all the things you have mentioned as their benefits. A fact sometimes which is forgotten in the grand scheme of things. Which is a clone Mary could be made up of the 1% of the military. Soldiers who have shown to be incredibly effective in combat or their role. An a idea not really messed around with is having clone templates for certain roles. A clone type for driving tanks, being a front line trooper, officer, grand strategist etc etc. This combined with putting them through lab conditions to spur on certain types of mindsets that could complement each other or make them excel in their role would make them practically unmatched.

[@ryank5424]

I feel the diversity and flexibility offered by an army of recruits is the best way to go. As there are several instances of that one ship captain or small unit that comes up with some unorthodox tactic or strategy that wins the day. And those troops I believe would be more invested in what they are protecting. I would even argue that such a force could be augmented by clone troopers.

[@claasmachens3858]

I think at least at the tactical level the problem should be rather easy to solve. (In armies that use (for some magical unexplainable reason) big batches of soliders, individualism is just unnecsessary so I will asume the army is organised in units comparable to squads on the base level.) Then it should be possible to have 4-12 diferent batches each with diferent genes going through individual basic training preparing for diferent roles in the team.

[@wickerbotterthewizard707]

The Republics Clone Army is perhaps one of the best examples of a well standardized military that can cover the needs of a galaxy wide conflict. So well standardized that you can tailor one set of armor, weapons, and vehicles that each one will be able to use out of the millions of clones in service. While tactically clones are very much like pawns, the Jedi and other officers they served with cover more flexible thinking and planning. So long as those non-clones are able to adapt and command their clone units, clones fit their role like a glove.

[@maxe3110]

Got it, I’ll stick to xenomorph armies in stellaris from now on. What’s more diverse thinking than complete insanity?

[@walterhaider869]

One of the smallest lifeforms the Hubble Bacteria uses the diversity is strong method to an extreme. 1/3 of all bacteria on earth is wiped out each day and the remaining that survived not only reproduce enough to get their numbers back up but can actually share their uniqueness with other bacteria. It only takes one to survive a attack and overnight there are millions with the same ability.

[@davidjuby7392]

I think one way to reduce that potential liability would be to create all your specialized teams for combat, espionage, repair, medical, tactical, special operations, pilot, etc. then clone all of those templates. This gives you reproduceable squads giving each team the specialized members with different perspectives each optimized for their specific role.

[@jamesh2321]

I think many of those inherent Weaknesses could be addressed simply by having multiple templates and specialist training.Clones may be identical genetically but they are still living sentient beings and therefore superior to robotic or droid enemies which are limited by their complexity and programming. Even some 'Reg' clones were able to display various skills and abilities not found in the rank and file- Rex and Cody, for example. This may speak to the skills of the Kaminoan Cloners themselves, or the Template Jango Fett's extensive skillset. I feel like the GAR would wipe the floor with the Jem'Hadar. Why? Well, for one, they could draw on an entire galaxy's worth of resources rather than that of a single quadrant, but let's examine some particulars. Jem'Hadar soldiers are extremely rigid- few, if any, showed any ability to break free of their programmed niche as expendable shock troopers. They seemed to have a limited armory, and every single one of them was hopelessly addicted to a drug that could easily have it's supply interrupted. If we compare their 'commander' archetypes, you then have to insert the Vorta and the Jedi. Now this is not much of a contest at all, in a battle situation. Even a Jedi apprentice should have no issue defeating a Vorta. It is also shown the Jem'Hadar do not respect the Vorta. They only listen because the founders told them to. Most clone units developed a good working relationship with their Jedi commanders, some even coming to call one another true friends. Camaraderie is not a quantity to underestimate. Jedi could also help to negate the cloaking field generators some Jem'Hadar were shown to employ, if advanced technology was not already available to defeat such a thing in the Republic. The essential guides claim the clone helmet had a scanning range across multiple spectrum, and KOTOR established personal stealth field generators existed, but this is not enough in my mind for me to definitively state they could automatically detect the Jem'Hadar, as the technology base is obviously different. The real nail in the coffin to me lies in their choice of equipment and vehicles. Jem'Hadar, and pretty much every faction in Trek, seems to have an aversion to ground vehicles, heavy fortifications, and even atmospheric strike craft. These things all exist in spades in every era of Star wars. Likewise, Dominion ships, while well built, had a pretty crippling disadvantage in that only the Vorta and the prime Jem'Hadar could see anything outside the ship. This was an electronic headset device. Now electronic means it can be jammed- or worse- Ionized. Ion cannon hits would render a Jem'Hadar vessel non combat capable.

[@seannewboy8612]

Imagine also if you are using some form of sleep training like was evident in Demolition Man’s (movie) penitentiary system. Giving your clones all the same training.

[@infernosgaming8942]

I think one key point that is in favour of the clone army is its rigidity. If someone had a bad experience with a dog as a child, they’ll have increased battle stress towards hounds. However, if you can control all aspects of a clone’s upbringing, you can steer clones away from situations they’ll feel stressed under, and know approximately how they’ll react to different situations.

[@NothingtoseeHere.Movealong]

*that feel when this is answered in the old-EU by having a very diverse set of trainers in the Cuy'val dar, and those encouraging personal hobbies and development*

[@haze5420]

The Clone Commandos of Delta Squad also fix a lot of the outlined issues. With each being uniquely trained by different people and having seperate life experiences from one another. Allowing each to have a distinct personality and rationale in battle.

[@yeetus_reetus_deeleetus]

i had thought they grew up with each other

[@LightOfZeon]

Jem'Hedar win against the clone army just based off aesthetics. Who would not surrender when faced by a fleet of stunningly neon purple ships? The look too cool for anyone to offer any meaningful resistance.

[@TheBlackBrickStudios]

In Star Wars’ case, the whole point of the Clone Army was that it was ridiculous and impractical, the whole war was orchestrated to accomplish two things. One, it needed to cripple the financial stability of the Republic, separating out those corporations who were disloyal and those willing to stay on an obviously sinking ship. Corporations like Kuat Drive Yards, Rothana Heavy Engineering, and Sienar Fleet Systems just to name a few were brutally loyal to the Republic, and thus given preferential treatment by the Empire. And two, the war needed to be a drawn out war of attrition, causing as much damage to the galaxy as possible, and what better way to foster distrust and dissent than an army of identical test tube babies fighting soulless machines? The Clones were a scapegoat, a thing that the Emperor could pin the Republic’s issues on and promise the people peace and prosperity by giving them a conscripted army. The Clones were horribly ineffective by design. A clone army on the level of Star Wars couldn’t work anywhere else, because species like the Jem’Hadar from Star Trek and Sontarans from Doctor Who relied entirely on overwhelming numbers to steamroll their victims into submission, but the GAR needed to look like hyper-effective uncaring monsters in the eyes of the Republic citizen for Palpatine’s plan to work.

[@hotwheels2621]

In my opinion, a better clone army would have used up to a dozen genetic templates, not all human. Togruta have increased spatial awareness, some other species can breathe underwater and the Kel’Dor can briefly withstand vacuum without a pressure suit. Can you imagine how terrifying a squad of mandalorian-trained Jawa clones would have been as an infiltration/assassination/sabotage force?

[@aceman67]

When you get down to it, there's really only one factor that wins wars: Logistics. The side that can keep their troops supplied and in the fight longer is victorious 90% of the time.

[@CptRexFilms987654321]

This concept art is fantastic

[@Lefty001]

Historically speaking there's been many times when battles were lost for minute reasons. Pompei Magnus lost to Caesar when his cavalry charge was repelled by some reserves. Maxentius lost to Constantine because his troops, although better theoretically better defended, were lined too closed to the river with no room to reform. Conditions of the battle and ability to maneuver are just as important as armor and weapons.

[@Stukov961]

Each clone's experiences are no longer identical after the first battle.

[@isaacsantos6200]

You can have clone armies as long as their training gives them the ability to adapt. They may come from the same genes, but they're all their own people with their own experiences. In the (now decanonized) republic commando novels, it was revealed that a variety of the deadliest and most talented warriors from across the galaxy were brought in to train their own batch of clone soldiers. This gave the clones a wealth of military knowledge to learn from and the chance to learn different ideas on when tackling tough situations

[@jaybonkersbonkers3613]

The only downside is lack of imagination and profitability. The clones are not perfect copies so are slightly different. Also once they have a life experience of any type they start becoming individuals.

[@derekburge5294]

I think the Dominion had it right with the Jem'Hadar. Clone from multiple templates and introduce small, intentional errors into the genomes for variation. You get all the benefit of eased logistics along with specialization and some random chance sprinkled in for flavor. Like an insect hive.

[@firestorm165]

In my universe the Ruthari use both clone and regular forces. However due to the clones shortened lifespan and the issues you and others have brought up they're mostly used for garrison duty to free up regular forces for offensive operations. This had the unexpected benefit of the clone troops becoming not only specialists but experts in urban warfare, so much so that regular forces are trained in CQC tactics by veteran clones and whenever local law enforcement needs a SWAT team they call up the clone garrison to take care of it

[@icicle_ai]

Something I think of is different, environmental training. First you give all the clones basic training with firearms, rationing, basic skills. Then you split them up on different planets with different training scenarios per clone, not just per planet. An example of this would have one of the planets simulate a fortress siege, with an actual fortress, not just the wall training center. But you also individualize the clone tasks. One's a sniper, others are assassins/siegers/command. Have the clones swap roles a lot, use the experience to see who's the best at a certain task. And when they've graduated so to speak, split them up into groups with people from different planets, different experiences, and then have that squad go through a gauntlet of different trials

[@ThatGuy182545]

I think the creativity and resourcefulness that you speak of is more important in the officer corps than the rank and file.

[@supremepatriarchbalthasarg474]

A great example of these diverse armies are imperial gaurd in 40k, from desert regiment of tallaran to catachan jungle fighters and none of them are clones(mabye few are but idk)

[@DarkApostleNoek]

Deathcorps of Krieg.

[@Paxel911]

Whilst I agree with the overall statement you also need to factor in experiences that occur to each individual clone. Using the Star Wars Clone Wars Series as an example, the clones serving directly under Anakin would be far more likely to learn bold strategies and be more prone to take chances whilst clones serving under a more cautious jedi would not.

[@JonoSSD]

I think it's a trade-off between uniformity and ingenuity. As Charlie commented, logistics are simplified when dealing with clones, but to me it goes beyond that. By using just one template you can pick any qualities you want and leave any undesirables behind. No dissidents, no mutineers, no refusal of orders. Ingenuity, difference, out of the box thinking is usually reserved to more elite and specialized squads. Synergy is also something to consider and people made from the same DNA would have a lot of it. Most governments want their soldiers to think as little as possible, be as homogeneous as possible and a clone army can ensure that. They want companies, platoons, armies. Not individuals. Diversity is difficult to control. The whole point of the clone army in Star Wars is that they are a significant military force that can be quickly created, trained and, by being human, posses just enough creativity to outsmart dumb droids but not enough to question their leaders. The perfect expendable fighting force. Sure, Clone Wars develops the characters to the point they're not simply just background guys with the same face and personality, but it also indicates this development was surprising and went against what the Kaminoans originally intended.

[@marshwalker7217]

Depends on tactics too, clone armies have very high morale compared to non-clone armies and allow some of the more straightforward tactics to work depending on the faction's mindset (Krell/Galactic Marines/ Death Korps of Krieg/etc) Depending on the production capacity, cloning allows a faction to just bury the enemy in bodies until they are defeated without completely destroying their own economy in the process, the fact the armor of the fallen fits fresh recruits perfectly every time is a major logistical bonus.

[@davidshea6272]

See also: Clan Mechwarriors versus the Inner Sphere Great Houses.

[@Swordsman1425]

Maybe a mixed approach could be helpful? Like... maybe the bulk of your army is mostly clones to make up for, perhaps, not wanting to institute a temporary draft of your population. But the people who do want to join are still accepted and allowed to mingle with the clones to help impart some individuality amongst them. I don't know to what extent this was done with the Republic's army aside from occasionally fighting alongside Jedi, but it could have been helpful.

[@MariahSyn]

There is something to be said for consistency.

[@madmusial]

Sorry my money is on the Grand Army not the Jem Hadar. An army equiped and trained for near total war. That said I know way more about clone equipment then I do Jem Hadar that's why I'd back them.

[@StacheMan26]

The flipside to a clone army all sharing more or less the same perspective, and thus being inherently less creative in problem solving, is that they all share the more or less the same perspective, and thus each clone has a pretty good idea of what's going through the heads of their brethren when facing the same situation. This massively increases unit cohesion and greatly simplifies in combat communication at the lower end of the unit scale, making the squad/platoon a more effective fighting force. It is often said that bad orders are better than no orders in the heat of battle, taking the initiative with a sub par stratagem instead of delaying for the perfect one is often enough to carry the battle, and for a clone army every soldier knows what orders are going to come down before they're issued allowing them to seize the initiative even faster.

[@stubby4000]

The advantage of a clone army is that they are easily replaceable, you don't need advanced battle tactics because you simply overwhelm your enemy with wave after wave after wave of clone's at them. That was the jem'hadar's only real tactic, overwhelming numbers. It take 18 years at a minimum to get a human solider from birth to the battle field to get a jem'hadar warrior to adolescent it literally took days, an elder (the oldest of the species) was usually around 15 but most of the warriors met in the show were 3 or 4 years old. You jem'hadar dont reproduce (in fact they are all male) so its more useful to think of them as a machine. So the only thing limiting your ability to throw clone soldiers at your enemy is your ability to build them. Wave after wave of cannon fodder until your enemy is defeated.

[@brainfart22]

There's a quote that I'm forgetting, amateurs discuss tactics, experts discuss logistics. I'd argue having identical soldiers could reduce the strain on a logistics network enough to offset having everyone be the same. Then again by that logic, the droids should have absolutely won given they have almost no logistical footprint whatsoever.

[@bottasheimfe5750]

i was recently reading a book series and in the last two books of the series i have gotten through so far, one of the things this lost colony of humans does in an effort to speed up population growth as fast as possible is cloning select individuals of noteworthy genetics. most of the ground forces these people deploy are of this cloned population, but they use hundreds of different people across multiple generations as the gene templates. of course these cloned people are also slightly genetically modified to be immune to most diseases and are on average, slightly stronger and quicker than the people who are born naturally, but it's not something that can't be overcome by intense training from a regular person. I should also note that for the most part, the clones are not cloned by the thousands or millions, each clone has at most, a few hundred Creche-mates

[@jonathannolan9016]

The clones can think individually or creatively, from the very first episode of star wars the clone wars. Each clone has its personality different from one another. Proven by every episode particularly involving clones.

[@casbot71]

Another option not considered : *more than one clone template.* At the simplest level what if the Bad Batch could be safely and reliably duplicated? Those "errors" locked in. But a well designed Clone Army would use different originals for different positions, instead of a _one size fits all_ approach. Jango may have been a great individual combatant, but as just the Bad Batch shows, in his base template he wasn't the best for particular specialisations. In the Star Wars universe (although the time scale doesn't line up) you would use Han Solo or Wedge as your Flyboy template - and here's where it pays to be clever … _use both!_ And add one or two more natural Flyboy types, with different attitudes to keep the enemy guessing. Then there's commanders, you would want a skilled tactician and strategist, and they may not be suitable to also use as a grunt. A Clone Army based around a group of individuals that work well together and have a synergy that makes the team better than just the individuals would be a far more effective force than just one extraordinary individual repeatedly copied. To use a Star Trek analogy (since you mentioned Jem'Hadar) a Clone crew of just Picard's or Kirk's would not be ideal. But add in cloned Spocks, Scotty's, Riker's, Worf's, Geordie's, Paris's, Dax's, Seven of Nine's, and so on (Data and the EMH can be copied in their own ways) and you have crews greater than the sum of their parts. Not only would their individual prowess in certain fields be useful (Scotty would make a hopeless diplomat) but their interactions provide solutions that none could come up with on their own. And the solutions would be unpredictable due to there being different viewpoints in the mix (especially if you had different mixes of the individual clones, stick a Spock or two in the TNG team). Even though Khan was far superior to any of those individuals, he was able to be predicted and therefore tricked - a Clone Army of him would have the same vulnerability (although his other factors would probably compensate in his particular case so he's not the best example, he would be like a clone army of a individual Jedi that could all have a connection to the Force). If StarFleet could mass produce Enterprises (and Defiant and Voyager survivor) crews for all their ships, they would be a far more formidable organisation, ethical concerns aside [Riker transport duplicates get perfected]. And back in Star Wars, a ideal Clone Army would not only use different individuals as templates, but different species, once again taking advantage of specialisation. Wookie clones (yes Chewie…) would make awesome heavy weapons specialist and just for Logistics (which is why Wookie slaves were so popular - they are walking forklifts), but you wouldn't use them for snubfighter pilots or Covert Ops. But a particularly skilled shapeshifting Clawdite would be a brilliant covert operations and spy operative. In fact a team of them could bring down a faction from the inside, they would be the most terrifying force imaginable as they could be any of your own people. _Just_ using a dozen different originals as templates, if carefully selected to see they all get along and 'click' would go a long way to eliminating the intrinsic weakness of Clone Armies, while preserving their advantages. The only question is *can you clone plot armour?*