The Best Pastoral Theology Ever Written?

[@coryscook91]

As a protestant evangelical, we are assigned this book during year one at Reformed Theological Seminary. It's great.

[@SMJ0hnson]

Your dad preached at my church yesterday and I was frantically trying to explain to all my friends how much I love your family and want to be like you and your dad “when I grow up” (I’m a 34yr old!). Thank you for this recommended reading and thank you for your spiritual gift to the church, constantly encouraging and strengthening our faith.

[@zacdredge3859]

I know youtube ministries are never a substitute for local involvement but thankyou Gavin for always sharing your pastoral heart through this channel.

[@logosimian]

"You don't have to be innovative to be a great theologian." Indeed. I would think innovation tends theologically to heresy.

[@paramyonzon9374]

I’m a student at Reformed Theological Seminary, and we used this is book for discipleship for a whole semester.

[@andrewfox5502]

I'm not a pastor, but I loved reading St. Gregory's guidance on how to teach opposite groups (sick vs healthy, rich vs poor, lazy vs hasty, etc...) because it felt like he was pastoring me. He showed so much psychological insight, and he often surprised me about where he was gentle and where he was strict. His approach reminds me of Proverbs 20:5, "The purpose in a man's heart is like deep water, but a man of understanding will draw it out."

[@tategarrett3042]

@@GirolamoZanchi_is_cool What does this have to do with what the guy above commented?

[@JohnHenry-wr1hs]

Thank you for the recommendation and teaching skill. I will definitely read it. I often wanted to go to Pastor Jack Hayford's School of Pastoral Nurturing but didn't make it. I have been a house church pastor for 28 years and my desire is to nurture and multiply small group leaders and house church pastors. Thank you for your ministry. I recommend your youtube page often.

[@AnciAlatir]

I love this book too. I read it a couple of years ago (as an elder). I have to reread it soon again. More Protestants, and especially Evangelicals, need to read this.

[@thomasmilavec3754]

I love this book!

[@GospelSimplicity]

I loved reading this book with my Patreon book club. In addition to the points you highlighted, I was really struck by how saturated in Scripture Gregory was, especially with the Old Testament. I'm not sure how my hermeneutics professors would've felt about his exegesis in a few places, but you can't read this book without encountering a man who was devoted to and loved Scripture.

[@TruthUnites]

that is so great you guys read through this - sorry to have missed!

[@malikking7047]

My wife just “bought” me this for my birthday. It was recommended reading in my Ancient Faith study Bible and from you! I cracked it open the other day and then saw this video! Thank you! I grew up Mennonite and literally never heard anything about church fathers! Then I attended a Pentecostal church for 10 years for more of the same. Then I attended a baptist church where the pastor started quoting saints that have gone before us and I am loving learning from people like Gregory! Thank you for this ministry!

[@tategarrett3042]

This is such a beautiful reflection on the wisdom of a teacher who seems to have truly deserved the title of "Great". It's also good and excellent, I think, to bring the gems from one tradition to another, and bring Gregory to a Protestant audience too.

[@MortenBendiksen]

That is just as much your tradition, if not even more.

[@tategarrett3042]

@@MortenBendiksen I agree - the more we learn the more we grow in faith and actions before the Lord.

[@primitivaroots]

I read that book last year. It's superb.

[@ttfweb1]

I’m an elder in a church (evangelical, about 2000 people) and I’ve been asking myself what it means to be a “good elder”, to be pleasing to God. It give this book a read - it sounds like it will be helpful. Thx.

[@ToeTag1968]

I picked this up for my Amazon Kindle for $1. Thanks!

[@truthmatters7573]

I'm in awe of the depth of wisdom in Gregory the Great's work, as you have outlined it

[@BrianWright-mi3lc]

Picked this up a long time ago on your recommendation (from a TGC article, I believe). Still need to read it but glad for the recommendation and thoughts. Thank you!

[@fellow_servant_jamesk8303]

Thanks for the recommendation!

[@Back2theWord]

Great video, and thanks for sharing. I have the book already and it was on my soon to read list. But now it is even higher up on that list. Continued blessings and thankful for this channel and the work you are doing!

[@christianf5131]

We just read this in Austin’s Gospel Simplicity patreon reading group, great stuff.

[@pierrebassel2109]

Watching this video after already finished "finding the right hills to die on" and now starting "theological retrieval for evangelicals" is like a big amusement to me❤ Always glad to see Dr. Ortlund's videos about books and their contents

[@ryanward72]

One interesting point about Gregory as a "bridge" between East and West, Gregory has throughout history been one of the most well-known and loved Latin saints in the Orthodox church. He's known as "Gregory the Dialogist" because his Dialogues have always been very popular in monastic circles, and one of the Orthodox liturgies (used on weekdays during Lent) is named after him.

[@mattleitner5194]

Thanks Gavin. I plan to read/listen to this book, it sounds like that it will be useful to me as a father, husband and minister.

[@Jackie.2025]

Great video!

[@thomasrutledge5941]

"We're standing in a maze right now. There are many doors within walking distance which lead to unthinkable greatness. We simply haven't walked over and opened them." - Tim Scarfe reflecting on professor Kenneth Stanley's research & book "Why Greatness Cannot Be Planned: The Myth of the Objective".

[@derekmchardy8730]

Great review of a great book, thanks. CS Lewis coined the marvellous phrase ' chronological snobbery,': the idea that those living before us were less educated and less intelligent than ourselves. Gregory's work is a wonderful corrective to such foolishness. His insight into human beings shows the folly of imagining that deep knowledge of human psychology began with Freud in the 19th century. The emphasis on balance is much needed. Here in the UK there is a strand of evangelicalism that so elevates the role of preacher that it sees pastoral care of individuals as an unwelcome intrusion into time for sermon preparation. Such an attitude results in poor pastoral care and, I believe, poorer sermons.

[@paulcruzado5064]

Thank you for this.

[@Dave_OGG]

Congratulations on 40k subscribers

[@DOCTRINExo]

Extremely excited to purchase your new book on Protestantism Brother Ortlund. When is it planned to be available for pre-order?

[@PhrenicosmicOntogeny]

I have this one in my list to read. I'll get there soon, I hope.

[@zachsmith8916]

I had to read portions of this book in my Biblical counseling class in Bible College.

[@marcuswilliams7448]

Perhaps a modern day analog to Gregory's Rule is Peterson's The Contemplative Pastor, which is also a great book. Thanks, Gavin. I just ordered a copy. I've tried reading this in the NPNF set, but it is hard on the eyes.

[@joshburks4079]

Gavin, do you think that all pastors need to be trained in theology? I don't mean that pastors must hold a theology degree, although that certainly is good, but that in some sense, pastors must be trained in theological discourse and thought? Perhaps a theology degree or classes is the only way to classify "training," but I would love to hear your thoughts

[@thefluxlife]

Does Dr. Ortlund have a 'recommended reading' list? He offers a lot of book recommendations in videos that I am unable to write down at the time of listening/watching.

[@thespyer2k]

He does not

[@thereforebeloved]

Yes

[@thomasfolio7931]

Dr. O is always good for a giggle. He denies that truths held by the early Church can be true because we don't have any scholarly evidence until the 3rd of 4th Century for a given doctrine, and decries the Roman Catholic and Orthodox Churches as having accretions, then upholds as the best Pastoral Theology ever written Pope St. Gregory the Great (Held as a Saint by both RCC and Orthodox Churches) Gregory this great hero to Dr. O like the selective Biblical Passages Dr. O either accepts or ignores, was a great and holy man indeed. Not just what Dr. O wants to accept in his Pastoral writings that Dr. O accepts, but in those things Dr. O either ignores or does not tell his viewers about. Gregory was a great defender of the Sacrificial Nature of the Mass, the Catholic position on the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist which was in part used to support the same at the Council of Trent, which Dr. O misrepresents in other videos. Gregory also supports and shows us the Apostolic foundations of the Episcopacy, Priesthood and Deaconate, as well as the authentic developments in the Church that Dr. O decries as abandonments of Christianity. This double standard and shoddy scholarship, along with turning a blind eye to the whole person and whole history, both in his own mind and presentation of history, are I hope a cry to heaven for our prayers that the whole story be presented, where Dr. O leaves it only half told. Yes I do believe as the Apostles and First Christians did in asking for the prayers of the Saints in Heaven and on Earth that Dr. O one day takes off Protestant glasses, does not replace them with the glasses of non-objective Catholic authors (while there are good Catholic authors, we must admit that there have been many who are just as fettered with blinders as Dr. O is in his Protestant views.) But puts on objective glasses and reads, then presents the full history.

[@Nonreligeousthiestic]

Your post is good for a giggle.. Your making a false equivenace between the work of any given theologian in general and Doctrines of the church as a whole. Here Ortalnd explicitly explains he is focusing on the pastoral component of the theology so just because he disagrees with some doctines of the Catholic church doesn't make him wrong or anything of the kind.

[@mattleitner5194]

Nice try, I suspect that you need to reevaluate your understanding of the gospel.

[@HM-vj5ll]

Appreciate this brother, for those doing bi vocational ministry juggling full time work and ministry. Would say anything different? Blessings.

[@david_porthouse]

_Here is the_ *Litany of the Saints* 1 *Lord, have mercy,* _Lord, have mercy._ * *Christ, have mercy,* _Christ, have mercy._ * *Lord, have mercy,* _Lord, have mercy._ * *Christ hear us,* _Christ graciously hear us._ *God the Father of Heaven,* _have mercy on us._ *God the Son, Redeemer of the World,* _have mercy on us._ *God the Holy Spirit,* _have mercy on us._ *Holy Trinity, one God,* _have mercy on us._ *Holy Mary,* _pray for us._ *Holy Mother of God,* _pray for us._ *Holy Virgin of virgins,* _pray for us._ *Saint Michael,* _pray for us._ *Saint Gabriel,* _pray for us._ *Saint Raphael,* _pray for us._ *All you Holy Angels* *and Archangels,* _pray for us._ *Saint John the Baptist,* _pray for us._ *Saint Joseph,* _pray for us._ *All you Holy Patriarchs* *and Prophets,* _pray for us._ *Saint Peter,* _pray for us._ *Saint Paul,* _pray for us._ *Saint Andrew,* _pray for us._ *Saint James,* _pray for us._ *Saint John,* _pray for us._ *Saint Thomas,* _pray for us._ *Saint James,* _pray for us._ *Saint Philip,* _pray for us._ *Saint Bartholomew,* _pray for us._ *Saint Matthew,* _pray for us._ *Saint Simon,* _pray for us._ *Saint Jude,* _pray for us._ *Saint Matthias,* _pray for us._ *Saint Barnabas,* _pray for us._ *Saint Luke,* _pray for us._ *Saint Mark,* _pray for us._ *All you Holy Apostles* *and Evangelists,* _pray for us._ *All you Holy Disciples of the Lord,* _pray for us._ *All you Holy Innocents,* _pray for us._ 2 *Saint Stephen,* _pray for us._ *Saint Lawrence,* _pray for us._ *Saint Vincent,* _pray for us._ *Saints Fabian* *and Sebastian,* _pray for us._ *Saints John and Paul,* _pray for us._ *Saints Cosmas and Damian,* _pray for us._ *All you Holy Martyrs,* _pray for us._ *Saint Sylvester,* _pray for us._ *Saint Gregory,* _pray for us._ *Saint Ambrose,* _pray for us._ *Saint Augustine,* _pray for us._ *Saint Jerome,* _pray for us._ *Saint Martin,* _pray for us._ *Saint Nicholas,* _pray for us._ *All you Holy Bishops* *and Confessors,* _pray for us._ *All you Holy Doctors,* _pray for us._ *Saint Anthony,* _pray for us._ *Saint Benedict,* _pray for us._ *Saint Bernard,* _pray for us._ *Saint Dominic,* _pray for us._ *Saint Francis,* _pray for us._ *All you Holy Priests* *and Levites,* _pray for us._ *All you Holy Monks* *and Hermits,* _pray for us._ *Saint Mary Magdalene,* _pray for us._ *Saint Agatha,* _pray for us._ *Saint Lucy,* _pray for us._ *Saint Agnes,* _pray for us._ *Saint Cecilia,* _pray for us._ *Saint Anastasia,* _pray for us._ *Saint Catherine,* _pray for us._ *Saint Clare,* _pray for us._ *All you Holy Virgins* *and Widows,* _pray for us._ *All you Holy Saints of God,* _pray for us._ *Lord, be merciful,* _Lord, save your people._ *From all evil,* _Lord, save your people._ *From all sin,* _Lord, save your people._ *From Your wrath,* _Lord, save your people._ 3 *From a sudden and unprovided death,* _Lord, save your people._ *From the snares of the devil,* _Lord, save your people._ *From anger, hatred and all ill-will,* _Lord, save your people._ *From the spirit of uncleanness,* _Lord, save your people._ *From lightning and tempest,* _Lord, save your people._ *From the scourge of earthquake,* _Lord, save your people._ *From plague, famine and war,* _Lord, save your people._ *From everlasting death,* _Lord, save your people._ *By the mystery of Your holy Incarnation,* _Lord, save your people._ *By Your coming,* _Lord, save your people._ *By Your birth,* _Lord, save your people._ *By Your baptism and holy fasting,* _Lord, save your people._ *By Your Cross and Passion,* _Lord, save your people._ *By Your death and burial,* _Lord, save your people._ *By Your holy Resurrection,* _Lord, save your people._ *By Your wonderful Ascension,* _Lord, save your people._ *By the coming of the Holy Spirit,* _Lord, save your people._ *On the Day of Judgement,* _Lord, save your people._ *Be merciful to us sinners,* _Lord, hear our prayer._ *That You will spare us,* _Lord, hear our prayer._ *That You will pardon us,* _Lord, hear our prayer._ *That it may please You to bring us to true penance,* _Lord, hear our prayer._ *Guide and protect Your holy Church,* _Lord, hear our prayer._ *Preserve in holy religion the Pope, and all those in holy Orders,* _Lord, hear our prayer._ *Humble the enemies of holy Church,* _Lord, hear our prayer._ *Give peace and unity to the whole Christian people,* _Lord, hear our prayer._ *Bring back to the unity of the Church all those who are straying,* *and bring all unbelievers to the light of the Gospel,* _Lord, hear our prayer._ *Strengthen and preserve us in Your holy service,* _Lord, hear our prayer._ *Raise our minds to desire the things of Heaven,* _Lord, hear our prayer._ *Reward all our benefactors with eternal blessings,* _Lord, hear our prayer._ *Deliver our souls from eternal damnation,* *and the souls of our brethren, relatives and benefactors,* _Lord, hear our prayer._ *Give and preserve the fruits of the earth,* _Lord, hear our prayer._ *Grant eternal rest to all the faithful departed,* _Lord, hear our prayer._ *That it may please You to hear and heed us,* *Jesus, Son of the Living God,* _Lord, hear our prayer._ *Lamb of God, Who takest away the sins of the world,* _spare us, O Lord._ *Lamb of God, Who takest away the sins of the world,* _graciously hear us, O Lord._ *Lamb of God, Who takest away the sins of the world,* _have mercy on us._ *Christ hear us,* _Christ graciously hear us._ *Lord Jesus, hear our prayer,* _Lord Jesus, hear our prayer._ * *Lord, have mercy,* _Lord, have mercy._ * *Christ, have mercy,* _Christ, have mercy._ * *Lord, have mercy,* _Lord, have mercy._ * _The responses indicated by an asterisk_ * _may be omitted by a single petitioner praying alone._ _This prayer is one of six approved litanies. The other five litanies are also being actively_ _propagated and it is suggested that they be said with roughly equal frequency._ _Occasions to say this litany are Holy Saturday, the Rogation Days (25th April and the three days_ _preceding Ascension Thursday) and All Saints' Day (November 1st). You can bring Lent to an end_ _on Holy Saturday by starting this prayer about 11.57 am. Lent will be over by the time you finish_ _and we are into the Vigil of Easter. Celebrate with a hot cross bun._ _You may copy and paste this prayer to a word processor or spreadsheet, reformat it as needed,_ _print it off, laminate it and give it to your friends. Please also give a copy to anyone who is_ _sick or housebound._ _This prayer can be fitted on a spreadsheet with two columns on one side and a third column on_ _the other side. The numbers 1, 2 and 3 at left indicate where the columns could begin._ _This litany goes back to the time of St Gregory, and possibly before. Evidently there have been_ _some additions. St Gregory sent St Augustine to evangelise the English, though earlier efforts_ _had been made by St Aidan and King Oswald._

[@thespyer2k]

Is it worth getting the newer edition with an opening by Dr Daniel Keating?

[@princechukwuemeka2639]

Is there a more recent translation of this text? I tend to struggle with the older English in this one.

[@carlpeterson8182]

the book he holds up is from St Vladimir's Press and is a very readable translation. Their Popular Patristic series is good.

[@chuckwalton2868]

I was taught in seminary that Gregory is the FIRST RC pope, in the sense of being the FIRST to recognized by the whole church (east and west) as the singular authoritative head of the church. As such, in Gregory, for the first time, we have church that's headship is BOTH centered solely in Rome, (thus Roman), and recognized as such by the entire Church--and therefore universal (or Catholic). I'd love to hear you talk about this in a video. The greater question many people puzzel with is: So, when was the Roman Catholic church really formed as such. In my opinion, it's only the most biased response to say that it began with Pope Peter in the Gospels. I think your thoughtful response would be helpful to both protestants and catholics Chuck Walton, Pardeeville WI

[@matthewbroderick6287]

Chuck, Jesus Christ gave Peter alone the keys of the Kingdom and Jesus gave Peter alone the command over all the flock of God! The office of sole key holder is one of succession Biblically! Peace always in Jesus Christ our Great and Kind God and Savior, He whose Flesh is true food and Blood true drink

[@MortenBendiksen]

The keys are the joy of belief in Him as saviour. The binding and loosing comes as a consequence of being free, it's not an office. You are free to hold grudges in earth, and they will take your rewards from you in heaven. We must stop thinking of heaven as this future thing. Heaven is here and now. Letting go of grudges, being willing to play and love and dance, is the rewards of heaven. This reality is in eternity, but it starts now.

[@matthewbroderick6287]

@MortenBendiksen The keys of the Kingdom are a sign of authority. The office of sole key holder is one of succession Biblically! Jesus Christ promised Peter alone the keys of the Kingdom. The same Church authority in Peter the rock and sole key holder, who stood up and put an end to all the debating at the council of Jerusalem Regarding circumcision, since SCRIPTURE ALONE COULD NOT, as Peter authoritatively ruled that circumcision of the Flesh was no longer necessary, even though Holy Scripture said that it was! Peace always in Jesus Christ our Great and Kind God and Savior, He whose Flesh is true food and Blood true drink

[@MortenBendiksen]

@@matthewbroderick6287 Jesus is the Rock. Obviously, this is the theme. Peter is the little rock, because he confessed it. But Jesus gives the church the keys i.e. the apostles, not Peter personally to hold onto. It is for distribution, not for control. It is simply the child like dependence on Christ, which imparts the keys which opens the reality of the kingdom right now among us. Children are already born into it. But they tend to forget it. They need to get the keys, i.e. the Fatih in Christ, as in actually trusting Him to be there in their lives, to find their way back in. The church, yes the catholic church, the one that encompasses all who trust Christ, starting with only the apostles, figured out the truth that cicurciscion was for the old covenant, and beptism is for the new. Perhaps it wasn't obvious then, but the spirit guides the church. It's of course not obvious if you hadn't been at the last supper, or heard about it. But then you wouldnt be an apostle either. But to the apostles it should be pretty obvious that the new covenant is just that, a new one. No one has ever proposed that scripture magically appeared one day and revealed everything in textual form. It is new covenant scripture because it originates from the apostles. The old covenant scripture is so because the prophets wrote it. They have the inspiration in them from what had transpired and happened to them. Peter was the authority at the time, but when he was wrong Paul could correct him. It is not just an happenstance that there is no circumcicion, it is quite central to the entire message, that the old covenant is not in effect. It's not like it could have gone any other way, hadn't Peter stepped in. The message spreads because of what it is and does to people, not because of some universal verbal understanding all must agree on. But it all revolves around the church and its freedom. One doesn't have to understand or verbalise it to live it, but someone must carry on the message to keep the spiritual battle going, i.e. empower the higher side of the human to receive the fruits of the spirit, so the child like receptiveness can grow in us anew. Amen, His blood and body is true drink and true food indeed. God's peace in your journey.

[@matthewbroderick6287]

@MortenBendiksen Jesus Christ renamed Simon as Cephas, which is Aramaic for rock and Jesus built His Church on Peter! Jesus Christ promised Peter alone the keys of the Kingdom. The office of sole key holder is one of succession Biblically! Jesus Christ prayed for Peter alone to strengthen his brethren and Jesus gave Peter alone the command over all the flock of God! The same Church authority in Peter the rock and sole key holder, who stood up and put an end to all the debating at the council of Jerusalem Regarding circumcision, since SCRIPTURE ALONE COULD NOT, as Peter authoritatively ruled that circumcision of the Flesh was no longer necessary, even though Holy Scripture said that it was! You are in my prayers as you journey toward Truth! Peace always in Jesus Christ our Great and Kind God and Savior, He whose Flesh is true food and Blood true drink

[@drummerhq2263]

4:30 sorry but the ancient Irish church had Christianity well before Saint Patrick. Some scholars say as early as the third century.

[@Phill0old]

Hey Gavin, re-do this one brother. I normally love your output but this is waffly and hard work.

[@TheNinjaInConverse]

Nowhere like being a pastor, but still applicable for leading middle school girls Sunday school;)

[@JamesClark-le7hu]

Pastor Gavin, and any other commenters that see this, this is off topic but I am wondering if you have encountered a channel called "HowToBeChristian." He is a Roman Catholic making videos attempting to debunk various protestant doctrines, along with other topics. If you have, do you feel as if this is a channel you can interact with and make videos about? I find his arguments to be lacking, and at times, disingenuous.

[@ntlearning]

hehehe yep, and Gavin needs to get his teddy bears out too and call himself: how to be a catholic

[@magnumsacramentum]

Pope Gregory the great who believed in purgatory.

[@antoniotodaro4093]

The "G" in Gregory signifies "GOAT"

[@carlpeterson8182]

He is not even the best Gregory. Gregory the Theologian all the way Baby! ;) Humor aside. Gregory the Theologian, otherwise known as Gregory of Nazianzus, shaped the theology of the Eastern Church and had some great very early pastoral writings. He also presided over the council of Constainople and was a key player in the Trinitarian and Christological controversies.

[@antoniotodaro4093]

@@carlpeterson8182 I agree, it would probably be a Cappadocian father I just wanted to pay my respects after hearing that critique of his exegesis

[@annakimborahpa]

The Best Pastoral Theology Ever Written? Response: - Since John Calvin - (A) credits Pope Gregory I, 590 - 604 AD, as the last good pope in his Institutes of the Christian Religion, Book IV, Chapter 7, No.16, when stating "But shortly after, John, who, in the time of Gregory, presided over the church of Constantinople, went so far as to say that he was universal Patriarch. Here Gregory, that he might not be wanting to his See in a most excellent cause, constantly opposed" - and - (B) Calvin later declares in his Institutes, IV, 7, No. 25 "To some we seem slanderous and petulant, when we call the Roman Pontiff Antichrist" - then - (C) exactly when did the Pope, the Catholic Bishop of Rome, become the Antichrist? Was it: 1. When Gregory was succeeded by Pope Sabinian, 604 - 606 AD? - or - 2. When Sabinian was succeeded by Pope Boniface III, February to November 607 AD, since Calvin in his Institutes, IV, 7, No. 17 states, "At length Phocas [the Byzantine Emperor], who had slain Maurice, and usurped his place (more friendly to the Romans, for what reason I know not, or rather because he had been crowned king there without opposition), conceded to Boniface III. what Gregory by no means demanded-viz. that Rome should be the head of all the churches"? - or - 3. After Pope Agatho's [678 - 681 AD] letter was read at the Third Council of Constantinople/Sixth Ecumenical Council [680-81 AD] that ended the Monothelite heresy by stating the traditional belief that Jesus Christ had two wills, divine and human? - or - 4. After Agatho's successor Pope Leo II, 682-83 AD, confirmed the decrees of the Third Council of Constantinople? - or - 5. Beginning with the reign of Pope Stephen II, 752-57 AD, who signed a compact with Pepin the Short, King of the Franks, since Calvin states in his Institutes, IV, 7, Nos. 17-18, "There are still extant among the archives of the Parliament of Paris short commentaries on those times, which, in treating of ecclesiastical affairs, make mention of the compacts both of Pepin and Charlemagne with the Roman Pontiff. Hence we may infer that the ancient state of matters was then changed. (18.) From that time, while everywhere matters were becoming daily worse, the tyranny of the Roman Bishop was established, and ever and anon increased, and this partly by the ignorance, partly by the sluggishness, of the bishops""? - or - 6. At the very latest, during the reign of Pope Adrian I, 772 - 795 AD, at the time of the 2nd Council of Nicaea/Seventh Ecumenical Council, 787 AD, that restored the use and veneration of icons? Particularly, since John Calvin states in his Sermons on Deuteronomy (Edinburgh: Banner of Truth Trust, repr. in 1987), 138a51-55 and 138b3-48): "God has forbidden two things [ cf. Exodus 20:4-5]. First, the making of any picture of Him…. The other is, that no image may be worshipped…." "The setting up of images in churches, is a defiling . . . By and by, folk go and kneel down to it. . . . The Papists . . . paint and portray ‘Jesus Christ’ - Who (as we know) is not only man but also God manifested in the flesh. He is God’s eternal Son, in Whom the fullness of the Godhead dwells - yes, even substantially . . . Should we have portraitures and images, whereby only the flesh may be represented? Is it not a wiping away of that which is chiefest in our Lord Jesus Christ - that is, to wit, of His Divine Majesty? Yes!" "And therefore, whensoever a crucifix stands moping and mowing in the church - it is all one as if the Devil had defaced the Son of God. You see, then, that the Papists are destitute of all excuse . . . They abuse their puppets and pictures, after that fashion." [Heidelblog website: Calvin Against Images Of Christ by R. Scott Clark on April 7, 2014]

[@joeoleary9010]

I attended a TLM Mass yesterday. During the homily, the FSSP priest briefly cited one of Paul's letters. He then spent the rest of his time ranting about how *some* parishioners were attending SSPX Masses, and how this was basically a sin crying to heaven for vengeance. The padre thundered that the SSPX "just do what they want" and are "no better than the Protestants." The irony here is that FSSP used to *be* SSPX, and that there's not a Peter's pence worth of difference between the FSSP and the SSPX Masses. This brought home to me how silly sectarian disputes are.

[@tategarrett3042]

Pardon me but I'm not familiar with any of those acronyms. Would you. mind clarifying what each one means and what the group I assume it stands for represents?

[@geordiewishart1683]

I take it the homily was in Latin too? You must be fluent in it to understand all that. Otherwise it wouldn't make sense to hold one part in a language no one today speaks, and the rest in vernacular language.

[@daliborbenes5025]

@@tategarrett3042 FSSP and SSPX are both groups of Catholic priests who like to serve the mass in the older liturgy (TLM = Traditional Latin Mass, the service is mostly in Latin, unlike more modern Catholic liturgy which was set out in 1970). FSSP are a regular and officially accepted group in the Roman Catholic church. SSPX are more radical and while the Pope refrained from calling them heretical, they are basically on the edge of what can be considered Roman Catholic. Some members of the SSPX may believe in various conspiracy theories about the Catholic leadership, and may detest anyone who supports the recent developments in church practice. SSPX priests are also sometimes irregularly ordained, meaning they are technically viewed as being priests, but the ordination broke some of the rules of the RC church (the bishops who consecrated them did so ignoring the orders of the Pope and other authorities). FSSP = Priestly Fraternity of Saint Peter SSPX = Society of Saint Pius X

[@tategarrett3042]

@@daliborbenes5025 huh, interesting. So FSSP is more mainstream, but still traditionally minded in that they want the Latin mass, while SSPX are more radical in some way?

[@daliborbenes5025]

@@tategarrett3042Yep, that's basically it, as far as I understand it (I'm not a Catholic).

[@Jimmyjimbert0]

Gregory is part of what led the papacy to become what it is now. Bad job, Gregory.

[@Anita-silver]

What about when the one who talks too much in a group is your pastor? Seems enthralled with his own stories. Wonderful person otherwise.

[@aaronjacobs4975]

Haha you love Catholic Popes don’t you ?

[@kazumakiryu157]

Hi, pastor gavin! I'm a big fan and I appreciate what you do and your sincere and kind approach! Can I ask if there is any way for me to contact you privately, such as email, so that I can ask you a question that has been bugging me?