The BYD Blade Battery Evaluated: The Hype is Real (Mostly)

[@thelimitingfactor]

Notes: 1) 1000km for NEDC is about 432 for EPA. This wasn't a Typo. insideevs.com/features/343231/heres-how-to-calculate-conflicting-ev-range-test-cycles-epa-wltp-nedc/#:~:text=So%2C%20U.S.%20BEV%2FPHEV%20drivers,a%20standard%20deviation%20of%200.092. 2) Correction from Matt Lacey! "Steel is common for cylindrical, but Al is standard for prismatic (regardless of chemistry) - lighter and better thermal conductor than steel though usually thicker. Can is grounded to +ve electrode to avoid corrosion. Blade cell is Al can, not steel" 3) However, re 2), this doesn't change the fact that they might use thicker aluminum to provide rigidity. However, there might be another thing causing the low Wh/kg in BYD: It has more surface area. 4) Tesla has started putting 60 kWh packs in China Model 3's, which provide 276 miles of range. This means the BYD Blade might provide 300 miles of range. 5) There is no such thing as a safe battery pack, only safer. That's the key takeaway with blade safety. So, yes, you can probably make it explode somehow, but it's less likely to. 6) KZbin wiped the original notes along with all the comments. Not sure why.

[@cf7922]

They might be able to get the 1,000 km range if they stack two battery packs on top of each other.

[@SxWerks]

AL extrusion is simple to make for Blade form factor.

[@Myrddnn]

Thanks for breaking this down. It's impossible to form a conclusion with the press releases alone.

[@annakissed3226]

KZbin I have found has a habit of deleting people's comments especially if the comments are outside what it thinks is the correct sort of commentary. It also remembers so once it starts happening it does so increaaingly

[@GorillaZillas]

@@annakissed3226 KZbin behaving like this really is not a good idea as whenever they "disappear" any comments I happily Invoke the old Streisand effect. I record the event and upload it to the ever increasing pile of mine and others evidence detailing what they are doing.

[@princeding2114]

As a ower of BYD Qin plus with these blade cells inside, I love this explaination. These are some of my opinions from a cell teardown I made half a year ago: 1. The case is aluminium, not steel. All prismatic cells are aluminium casing, not steel. 2. The gravimetric energy density (specific energy) is low due to large surface area to volume ratio. Ideally, a sphere would have the lowest area to volume ratio thus maximum amount of active material. The thinner and elongated the cells are, the more it is wasted on casing. 3. BYD blade cell pack is not as structurally sound. They are not as strong as cell-module-pack intergration. (I witnessed crush tests on these pack before.) 4. 9:18 The cell you showed is actually a pouch cell for PHEV models. The EV models uses single long blade cell, PHEV uses 8 pouch cells to form a "thick blade". Obviously, PHEV cares more about power while EVs cares more about enery. 5. 10:14 My car has a total pack capacity of 71.7 kWh for a similar size compared with model 3. The NEDC is 600 km while Model 3 LR in China is now 619 WLTP. Tesla wins on whole vehicle efficiency by a lot! However, from battery system's POV, BYD with LFP had an amazing achievement for their first generation product. 6. When comparing battery technology, we really should only look on packs & cells. Vehicle design would have a huge impact on range performance. I wish manufactures should post their vehicle's energy consumption rather than just "Range". 7. 13:00 The Ocean-X model might be the EK series, my vehicle's predessor. It would have an NEDC range of 700 km to start with. That is still based on the current blade cell technology. The next gen would have a pack specific energy of 180 Wh/kg. With the help of 8-in-1 platform control system and even CTC, I suspect 1000 km would be possible but with a catch on the testing standard. 8. 17:30 And cheap labour. BYD has the cheapest labour compared with other cell manufactures. No comment on that. If you would like to know more about the BYD Qin plus, here is the link to my video: kzbin.info/www/bejne/aabaq31-nr6haLM

[@philliptemple4534]

How is this incredibly informative post not upvoted more?? Phillip.

[@elctrica7826]

Thanks for the wonderful insight

[@ericng9813]

BYD will release its semi-solid stated batteries on its high end model by 2023. I believe 1000km will be standard spec for BYD lfp ev in mid end models after 2023.

[@ianjohnson458]

Amazing information. Let me throw this at you, at the risk of being presumptuous or even audacious I am afraid. From an investing standpoint, do you think battery swapping technology will become a bigger deal or as big as the blade batteries? I think the former might be more used in EU eventually. Also am I incorrect in treating these two battery paradigms as mutually exclusive? Thanks again for such a thoughtful, informative post.

[@josephkolodziejski6882]

@@ianjohnson458 Battery swapping technology is a non-starter for surprisingly abstract reasons - mainly format sensitivity due to disagreements over powers standard connections and restrictions made by the geometry required, and whether the application could tolerate lower speeds of charging given the context (hiring cars or being part of a taxi fleet could be managed by throughput of cars being charged 'out of phase' rather than individually waiting for a single vehicle.)

[@LewdCustomer]

Look to reality to interpret results? Wow, what a concept! Wall Street analysts and cosmological scientist should try this method.

[@thelimitingfactor]

😆

[@musaran2]

Funny thing is, we actually had to invent the concept. It was not obvious. Our ancestors would create whole explanations solely in the mind… that reflect their mindset more than reality. "Empirical science historically developed out of philosophy or, more specifically, natural philosophy."

[@WillProwse]

😂😂

[@rogerstarkey5390]

*OUCH* !! "Cosmological scientists"??? What have they got wrong? (Please don't say "creation")

[@hamjudo]

@@rogerstarkey5390 If you only read/watch popular science journalist's interpretations of science papers, all scientists appear to be wackos some of the time. On average the summaries of cosmological science papers are worse than most disciplines, although not nearly as bad as the interpretations of quantum physics papers. There are quite a few papers in cosmology about contradictory measurements. The authors of the papers go step by step through each set of data and calculations to show how each of the conflicting results were obtained. The authors are proving that there must be one or more errors in the measurements, the calculations or both. Science journalist's interpretations of that sort of paper often portray scientists as if they are on competing teams, and that each team absolutely believes that its method and data are absolutely perfect. This misinterpretation leads to the conclusion that one or both of those imaginary teams are full of wackos. This sort of thing comes up often with ages of cosmological objects. Two different methods lead to different calculated ages with error bars that don't overlap.

[@thelimitingfactor]

Notes: 1) 1000km is 621 miles nedc and 434 EPA, which is closer to reality. This is explained later in the video. Watch the video before commenting please. 2) There is no such thing as a safe battery. Every mechanism for storing energy is like a bomb. You can only ever be safer. BYD blade will still be flammable under the right conditions...just like every other battery. But the odds should be much lower, and that's what we should always be striving for - few people killed. 3) After publishing this video, I thought of one additional reason why the BYD Blade Cells my have lower gravimetric energy density: As I mention in the video, they have greater surface area. That is, I think the reduced gravimetric energy density could be either/or due to thicker steel/more surface area. 4) BYD Tang appears to have similar range (EPA) to Han. It's range is often reported in WLTP or NEDC, which are generous. 5) The was a paper published by Chao-Yang Wang claiming more impressive figures for Wh/l. But, if you check, the references, it appears to reference an article. 👀 6) It appears that Tesla LFP is getting a boost to 60kWh and 273 miles of range. This means that with BYD LFP in a Tesla vehicle, we'd be looking at almost exactly 300 miles of range. However, BYD vehicles are less efficient and it would still be a stretch to hit 300 miles of range. But they'll be there in the next couple of years.

[@apocrypth]

What are your thoughts Jordan on internal resistance of that long cells compared to shorter prismatic ones? I assume, electrodes are on one end, so "the distance electrons need to travel in the cell" is reaaaaally long, or am I wrong with this assumption?

[@thelimitingfactor]

It's a good point! I think it would create a 2-3% handicap.

[@cybertrucktruckguy3347]

As if any of us would have been wondering why you’d missed that last reason. You’re the Sherlock Holmes of batteries.

[@rogerstarkey5390]

@@thelimitingfactor I've just posted elsewhere, maybe it's not 1 long cell, but a "string" of short ones, just opened out, unravelled, with a common busbar connection at the top/ bottom performing the same function as the 4680 tabs? (short path, good energy/ heat dissipation?) Advantage, better cooling, less resistance (?) Isolation of the packets in case of damage/ failure, while exhausting through the whole cell box?

[@NickGobin]

Great stuff as always Jordan! I am loving the developments we're seeing with LFP everywhere; seems like it will make the electric transition even faster and more affordable. A note on safe batteries. I agree that there is "no such thing as a safe battery" but would add the nuance for a lithium ion battery and fire risks. There are other electrochemical energy storage systems that will not burn at all. Most of the fire risk in lithium ion batteries (both nickel and LFP) comes from the organic electrolyte, not from the stored electrical energy. In any case, we have almost no examples of deaths from EV fires (maybe the Texas Model X crash in April '21?) and very few examples of deaths even in very large stationary storage systems. Mostly the safety goals we are and should always be striving for now are protecting property - vehicles, garages, etc. (which is also important!) Obviously life safety is always the number one concern and must remain paramount, but it's important for the public to realize that battery fires kill/maim almost no one.

[@WillProwse]

Love your videos!!! The blades are fantastic. I plan to test some soon. Really cool technology. Love your breakdown and comparisons.

[@thelimitingfactor]

🔥 Awesome! I've seen them available online. Makes me want to tinker, lol.

[@oof_Dad]

@@thelimitingfactor Love that you and Will are connecting online- love both of your videos!

[@rogerstarkey5390]

A question for both of you! do you think these are a "full width" cell internally, or a string of individual cells (I'm struggling for an analogy..) like a string of "soup packets"(?) with top terminals for each packet on a common busbar, then layered 7(?) deep? This idea would limit the volume of cell damaged in the nail test, say 7 packets, 150mm tall by 100 mm wide instead of an 1800mm length? That would let just that section exhaust along the whole length of the container without lunching the entire unit. Hope this makes sense. (Btw.... HAPPY NEW YEAR!!)

[@mfb424]

@@rogerstarkey5390 Blade cell electrodes can be that long. Instead of rolling the cylindrical cell jelly roll they just stack those as-is. To make a oversimplified comparison.

[@rogerstarkey5390]

@@mfb424 That what I was suggesting. The assumption elsewhere seemed to be that electrodes would be at the "ends" of the "roll", effectively at the "sides" of the pack when in the car, leading to a long electrical path, increasing resistance. I suggested they should be like the tabless roll, top and/ or bottom of the pack. However, I also suggest that if the long roll is then divided (pinched?) at several points, that would avoid losing a complete roll and probably the whole cell, if one section is compromised.

[@willlauwers4098]

I had a different take on the blade short claim. Long cell means relatively long internal distance (lateral) to short location. Further distance to short = delayed current contribution ( I picture an instantaneous voltage well centered on nail puncture location. Prismatic has very steep well that normalizes quickly, while blade has less steep well and takes longer to flatten). Similar to fast charging current inhomogeneities. Long cell intentionally introduces current inhomogeneities at high power (short), extending time of short discharge due to decreased current at short, decreasing heat buildup at point of short. NOT SURE THIS IS TRUE,. Just laying out my immediate thought when you first mentioned the claim of longer short circuit. Also, heat buildup of rapid mass transfer is better distributed away from point of short and close to surface for dissipation. Thanks for producing these! Note, this is purely personal opinion.

[@thelimitingfactor]

Thanks for your thoughts!

[@rogerstarkey5390]

"long internal distance" depending on which edge the contacts are on. Put them on the "long"edge of the cell (top and or bottom) and you essentially have an unrolled 4680. Then you have a REALLY short path with all the associated benefits.

[@artsnow8872]

In the LFP cell, the oxygen atom is joined to the phosphorus atom; whereas, in the other formulations, the oxygen atom is joined to a metal atom, Phosphorus has a high thermal stability which would have a slower reactivity rate.

[@sandyt4343]

Such an amazing and comprehensive overview of battery progress. I can’t imagine how much time is involved in assembling all of this information thank you very much for your effort

[@lukem8420]

Agreed, thank you is not enough for this amount of time and work

[@joebachmeier6747]

Hands down the best technical product analysis available for free. Tesla should be employing you.

[@nickidk4]

Who should then educate the world on batteries if Jordan joined Tesla? Jordan is great, but he has a larger net positive for the world creating videos than helping the team at Tesla :)

[@michahalczuk9071]

65$/kWh is insanely low cost for now. I remember not very long ago people speaking of

[@altair1405]

just use the nedc testcycle abd 1000km are easy ;)

[@cybertrucktruckguy3347]

I love your videos. Thank you. Very cool stuff. BYD is the Only other EV stock I’ve really considered besides Tesla. Feels like those two are pulling away from the pack.

[@gregb1599]

Yeah but not the stock prices down $10 per share in a week is not that impressive, then look at the battery warranty which is extremely limited 8 years but no more loss than 40% that is almost half it's capacity! If the car has a new range of 300km but after 8 years that range drops to 180km then that is a big fail!

[@drew031127]

I agree, it's Tesla and BYD's world and everyone else is paying rent.

[@SuperGeronimo999]

@@drew031127 NIO and Vinfast too, soon...

[@macrumpton]

@@gregb1599 I'm not sure why their warranty is so conservative, but LFP generally has a very long lifespan with little dropoff even with charging to 100% and draining to 0%. Also BYD has been making batteries for a long time, it would be surprising if theirs were worse than others. I suspect the stock price is due to the lack of press they get in the US. Their weak point seems to be their marketing outside of China.

[@gregb1599]

@@macrumpton A battery is a battery which is why LFP can get very high mileage warranties but the same short 8 years, if you look into the previous BYD E6 they had a lot of battery failures, hopefully the new Blade battery is more reliable, but it may not lose capacity rather the cells just fail which of course kills that part of the battery pack. As for the stock, more than likely the announcement that 30% subsidy has been cut with 100% at end of December 31st that will kill a lot of sales for sure

[@robitmcclain6107]

Seems like BYD could incorporate the aluminium honeycomb sheet used in airplanes to get the rigidity needed across the width of the vehicle and improve the heat dissipation.

[@UrbanGuitarLegend]

Jordan, my man, you never disappoint sir. Thank your for the amazing video once again. Would love to see a follow up to the Novonix video from last year as this appears to the year of the anodes, Nouveau Monde, Talga, Syrah, Novonix, BTR etc...

[@klauszinser]

I came back to watch the video again. My, now different questions, are answered. Well done.

[@waynewilliamson4212]

nice breakdown. one thing to keep in mind is that lion(nmc&nca) both do not want a 100 percent charge nor a 100 percent discharge, where as lifep04 has no problem with it.

[@rogerstarkey5390]

They don't want to be STORED at 100% or 0%. There's an interesting observation in the latest Bjørn Nyland vid, concerning the pack in his brand new Model 3. He not only details the pack type) size (LG, 78.5kWh, 75 Useable) but talks about the common perception of "0%" and the TWO buffers below that figure in Tesla packs, one of which you simply can't access. It's interesting!

[@伊森-l5x]

Exactly! And Safe non-spontaneous combustion is the first road for electric vehicles.

[@ZirothTech]

Brilliant video, I have been waiting for your in depth analysis of these cells! I was fascinated by the thermal engineering that a seemingly 'simple' change to the form factor could make. I didn't realise that their ability to act as a heat sink was also complemented by lower heat generation in the first place! Keep up the great work :D

[@CarViewer]

Very good video. The issue with the reference to BYDs model Han is that it is based on a ICE platform and not optimized for efficency they took a gasoline car and engineered a battery into it. Of course your video was 2 years ago but the ocean (BYD Seal) seems to have delivered on the promise from BYD and Tesla using BYD Cells is showing that BYDs claims where not to far off back then.

[@juhopeltola3993]

Some cases, as my bike, lfp does outperform, becouse in my case li-ion is just too much down of the power below 3,5v cell voltage to enjoy. Lfp battery gives pretty much the same power all the way, so in my case I get much more usefull capacity from pack that weights the same. Whit along of all the other benefits on top of that. Just to say to all of the powerful ebike buiders, car business is not exatly my area. I still enjoy wery much of this information, just giving a diffrent point of view. Thanks man for good work :)

[@伊森-l5x]

Exactly!

[@richpalmisano1740]

As a DIY Solar guy I can affirm and attest that when Chinese battery sellers claim "xx" amp hrs in their cells you can assume "xx - 20%" when ordering Prismatic LFP

[@thelimitingfactor]

Great insight!

[@rogerstarkey5390]

Not always. Ask Will Prowse.

[@fannyalbi9040]

u mean like european cars talking about how their cars r eco friendly? ya, i need to donate some life size mirror 🪞

[@RobertHamon]

The best content on youtube is right here! I simply cannot get enough of these videos, need more, more, MORE!!

[@aarontempleton2735]

I appreciated the thermal runaway slide title easter egg.

[@thelimitingfactor]

😂

[@bobstovall5449]

You, Sir, via your channel are, Far and Away, the absolute best in providing clear and understandable information on this topic which leads me to this: One unfamiliar with battery chemistry could conclude that the OPTIMUM configuration would be Nickel/Cobalt/Aluminum chemistry in a Blade configuration providing the heat dissipation of the high-aspect ration blade cell with the gravimetric and volumetric energy density of the NCA chemistry. What say ye?

[@thelimitingfactor]

Thanks man! Tough call! That's a lot of high energy, highly reactive chemistry in one cell. Playing with fire. Plus, cylindrical is easier to manufacture. That is, we have to see how it plays out. No one has a monopoly on the truth. But, I suspect Blade was optimized for LFP while Tesla optimized for Nickel (note: I've covered this in other videos)

[@sagetmaster4]

If that is a Del Shannon reference at 2:20 I'm joining your Patreon. WHAT a song

[@skyeparker5822]

Would you be able to do a video on ESS (the company) and flow batteries for grid scale storage in general? Would really like your take.

[@thelimitingfactor]

Eventually 🤠

[@gj1234567899999]

Not battery related but Another cost saving would be cars that just drive them self lives straight from the factory to the port to be exported or onto the train or truck trailer.

[@douglaswatt1582]

As we have come to expect, a state-of-the-art virtual teardown, analysis, and Technical discussion.

[@eamonstack4139]

Thanks Jordan, great insight and analysis in this v relevant video. We need "The Limiting Factor" for 2022 and beyond. Eamon

[@thelimitingfactor]

🙌

[@rhiantaylor3446]

In years to come it will be interesting to see a comparison of the torsional resistance of the blade-based Tesla battery and the 4680-based battery - or for that matter a comparison of the respective car's torsional rigidity. I am no mechanical engineer but the blade battery looks more likely to fit the role of a structural member.

[@benzengap6804]

Although the 4680 battery is structured in a honeycombed design. In principle, a honeycomb can handle lots of load stress in all angles.

[@terrysullivan1992]

They both work exceptionally well. The Tesla 4680s are cast into a solid block which is why it is so rigid and strong. The wonderful thing about all of this is that it all is exactly what is Elon's goal for electrically powered transportation.

[@CagrTunca]

Great video again! I think, as the size of the battery cells decreases and the number increases, the effect of a defective cell on the total capacity of the battery decreases. In the long run, this may pose a slight disadvantage to Blade cells. One cell got bad and lost your ~%1 of capacity right away.

[@thelimitingfactor]

A good point

[@rogerstarkey5390]

I've suggested a solution in 2 different posts here.....

[@galfisk]

More cell material spread over a large area might mean that an entire cell doesn't go bad the same way as a small, compact one.

[@shumymikaball]

On the other end, since the fire protection foam is not needed, it seams easier to replace.

[@rogerstarkey5390]

@@AudiTTQuattro2003 "1 cell craps out" and you lose 0.1% performance (ask Porsche, they have that problem now)

[@jimcarroll8977]

Loved the "My Little Runaway" reference...

[@AORD72]

The tests used to provide battery range seem confusing (I can never remember what specs they use). Why doesn't the industry make it simple and use a constant 100km/h range test and a constant 50km/h range test.

[@yourlydontknowjack]

I can tell you raw material prices are EXPLODING in the battery industry currently. Even for LFP, phosphorous seems to be in short supply (maybe harbinger of the looming phosphorous crysis...). So yeah, everybody is unhappy. Hopefully things normalize but i fear battery prices per kWh will make an upturn for the first time in a long time.

[@MrHagum]

Good news for my country (Morocco) 85% of world wide phosphate reserves !

[@xxwookey]

I did wonder about the phosphorus part of this. People have been worried about the limited supply for years given the rate it's being used for fertiliser. I'm not sure if the battery usage would only be a tiny blip on current usage so there is plenty so long as we can persuade people not to sprinkle it all on fields. Or if in fact a planet-full of LFP EVs is enough phosphorous to be a problem. We can just collect it out of everyone's wee...

[@Madame702]

If you look at the number that Tesla just did this quarter, their cost should be going up, but it went down and book a higher profit margin. I think that what happen is that in the Fremont factory in the third quarter and they installed LFP batteries for the cars driving down cost. That just amazing, I haven't seen that kind of adjustment and turn around in the car industry.

[@rogerstarkey5390]

You're listening to the "kiwi connection"? (T.E)😉

[@michaelstarkey9745]

Ty ty ty Mr Jordan u deserve a Nobel prize money n professional transisionalism

[@mackxue779]

Been waiting for your video on blade! Thank you for the brilliant explanation as always!

[@willyolio9590]

I just wish I could get a car with those batteries in north america...

[@Steph1]

I don’t often watch your videos because they’re more technical than I can focus on. But when I do, I’m blown away by your quality research 👌

[@loumonte658]

Seems that Warren Buffett has another long term winner in BYD. Amazing that he bought in so many years ago.

[@moki123g]

Another great video! Another interesting area to dive into is the electrical characteristics of LFP vs. Nimh. Also typical ESR or internal resistance. That translates to lower current capability in and out so cars will be slower acceleration and in theory lower charge rates? LFP is better suited to lower cost and performance vehicles. Tesla need every battery they can get. Any way, just something else to think about, Keep up the great work!

[@Micador79]

The BYD Han was not built from scratch to be an EV so it's not a good example to understand the true potential of their tech. We should wait for the new sedan to see the new architecture in action, like 800v that's a first for the company. Game on! 🙂

[@elctrica7826]

Yes ByD dolphin would be a better example

[@eugeneleroux1842]

Thank you for such an informative presentation, done so professionally.

[@aurelio-reymilaorcabal9669]

Good info Jordan, now please dig into CATLns Qullin battery that is coming to Geelys Zeeker lines.

[@robertoliver6556]

Thank you so much for taking the time to make this video. It was very informative and very well presented. I hope Tesla can make use of the technology. The world needs a low cost, long range EV desperately. Thank you again. I look forward to watching your other videos. Take care.

[@kreelaban3420]

All it really proved to me is do not ever let anyone under your BEV vehicle of they have a hammer and a nail in their hands.

[@Orbit353]

The blade format looks good for distributing heat, and thus resilience against single cell failures propagating through the battery pack. But are they still sufficiently robust to handle e.g. a 20 cm intrusion into a battery pack? Would you get the same number of cathode-anode shorts with blade cells, as with prismatic cells? The blade pack could have more cells damaged than a prismatic based pack, given the same intrusion depth. The drill demo should rather have been trough stacks of cells, with the same accumulated thickness. For example two prismatic cells stacked, vs 10 blade cells.

[@peter.g6]

I wanted to ask the same thing!

[@ronaldgarrison5528]

At least two of the major claims for the blade battery sound specious to me. (1) fill factor is not necessarily any better for a blade battery than for cylinders. You have to circulate coolant somewhere. You can cool the cells at their ends, through a cooling plate, But with either packaging type, you need to circulate coolant past all available surfaces to keep all parts of the cell from overheating. (2) A cell design that is thin in one dimension may not help with punctures as much as you may think. If the blades lie flat in the pack, they will have to be stacked, so they will end up with penetration depth possibly as bad as for a prismatic cell, or a bunch of cylinders stacked on end. OTOH if the blades are laid in vertically, mast punctures will be along an edge. That may actually be safer, but the same will be true for a cylinder that stands vertically. With either type of design, I think you have a fair amount of latitude in deciding how to mount the cells in the pack for best safety and other criteria.

[@thelimitingfactor]

Good points! 1) Will be covered in my 4680 LFP video.

[@xxwookey]

Yeah - I want to know where the coolant goes. Some articles suggest that there isn't any because they are running these cells at 60C, so only have passive cooling and embedded heaters. this makes sense because power output and input is much higher at 60C and internal resistances are low and it helps some issue with the carbon anode that I don't understand, and the material is heat-stable at these temps, unlike nickel-based cathodes. If that's all true then it will improve pack density, although I presume they still need an ali sheet in between each cell to wick heat to the top and bottom plates, but maybe not coolant channels? But the e-platform 3.0 (next gen used in the Ocean-X) talks about a heat-pump for heating and cooling, which implies a coolant circuit again. This article shows an exploded pack diagram with a coolant loop on the top surface only, so relying on conduction to get the heat to there. medium.com/batterybits/a-sharp-contender-byds-blade-battery-ced2ef1dc8f8

[@伊森-l5x]

Puncture is a battery-safe test for the simple realization of "absolute short circuit"! This is one of the toughest extreme tests of all batteries!

[@伊森-l5x]

Therefore, BYD has been developing blades for a long time and has encountered many process limits, such as ultra-thin winding and length, which are very difficult, so BYD has a blade battery patent in 2019！

[@rbc4499]

Excellent coverage thanks for covering multiple important aspects

[@Carl_in_AZ]

Reducing vehicle weight, lowering CF, and reducing motor and gearbox friction with their LFP blade batteries can make them meet their Ocean-X goals. It will be interesting to see if Tesla exports BYD's $25k EV instead of building them in their European and USA manufacturing plants. BYD's MING EV with CF below 0.18 using their new hub motor patent shows great promise. If they figure out how to mass-produce carbon fiber bodies like Aptera they will also lower weight.

[@channguyen3349]

Such a great video. What impress me the most is the cost at 65-78 $/kWh! It doesn't seem to have any sort of liquid cooling. It this one of the reason for the low cost? This should go into grid storage also. This is the reason I think Tesla currently doesn't have much advantage in the grid scale storage, which is mostly about cell/pack cost.

[@thelimitingfactor]

Thanks man! I think it still needs cooling/heating. I'm assuming it's plate cooling at the top or bottom.

[@channguyen3349]

@@thelimitingfactor Agree. It will be great for grid storage too. Here I think air cooling will be sufficient. At this cost we can consider using it for long term storage also. Please do an episode on grid storage with Lithium batteries versus other technology.

[@موسى_7]

@@thelimitingfactor so it's like Mercedes Vision EQXX?

[@cool-hh6yc]

Every car which using blade have liquid cooling. so i think that is include

[@thomasgaudette7367]

Your videos are consistently valuable. Thank you for this.

[@shazzizzle]

Jordan, since you cover both batteries and gigacastings, I have to believe you have an opinion about the next step for Tesla in manufacturing. Cost wise, all vehicles should have front and rear castings with a "structural pack." The structural pack therefore has to be NMC or LFP or whatever future chemistry is used...and also 4680, 2170, and whatever other form factor they want to put in there. We know they will have a 4680 and 2170 structural pack, but what about the LFP version? Can they use their current dry process to make LFP cells? Also, when will Tesla swap the M3 to front and rear castings?

[@thelimitingfactor]

Yup! Video is scripted 😀 LFP 4680 is feasible and may offer some advantages.

[@benzengap6804]

@@thelimitingfactor Referencing from your past videos about 4680s, an LFP 4680 would have more active material/kwh, hence greater specific energy, ergo more miles.

[@edwardmorpeth5988]

AS USUAL AN OUTSTANDING PRESENTATION :: I see the short "multiple" paths of the 4680 a major advantage, including charging & discharging. I accepted there would be problems, but building on the Maxwell' dry electrodes with rolls 5 cells wide, the concept of a "NEW FORM", a flat horizontal cell 300 x 400mm as a blade or prismatic could be interesting.

[@greggpon7466]

Nice explanation of a technical problems at the cutting edge of the EV industry.

[@menghawtok7837]

Really enjoyed this video. Answered many questions I had about BYD blade battery! Thanks for the great content!

[@flipadavis]

Try stacking 4 or 5 blade cells and puncture those with the same long nail. It might not make a difference but you also might see a different result with that one continuous piece of metal connecting all the shorts together.

[@jonathan4831]

The cover for the battery pack is made with a honeycomb core composite plastic plus fiberglass panel to reduce weight.

[@MrVelociraptor75]

Awesome video Jordan! Thank you once again for your in-depth analysis Very interesting to see another form-factor for batteries being used. I like the idea, it seems smart. If this is the path to a [sub-]$25k Tesla too, that would be awesome

[@adriangabrielgramada1016]

Very nice explanation ! Details, pace, imaging ... everything 😉 Thank you! BTW I also have tried with little to no succes to propose to Tesla a very very similar design of blade battery. It is 99% similar to BYD battery without even knowing it existed because it hasn't been made public yet. In my design I also explain a far better manufacturing method that can yield exponential quantities ... I wonder if BYD / Tesla would even listen to small inventors and actually have a way to hear them ...

[@ΘάνατοςΧορτοφάγος]

Energy consumption or economy, not efficiency. Thanks for another deep dive video. Blade battery, not just cool engineering...also a cool name 😁 Still strange China now uses the European NEDC, while Europe has moved to the international WLTP

[@wino99999]

Interesting Video - Thanks. One observation: there did seem to be multiple instances of the same detail throughout the video which I felt was off-putting.

[@TheDailyTraderPierre]

Great explanation about the nail in the batteries

[@gregvanpaassen]

Another unknown with the blade form factor is cycle life. With a large cell there may be more chance for irregularities to accumulate in different ends of the cell over multiple discharge-charge cycles. On the other hand, efficient heat removal may work to extend cell cycle lifetime, even with the more heat-tolerant LFP chemistry.

[@brucec954]

Great video as usual. Would be interesting to see a video on "revolutionary new Sodium batteries" - seen a lot of hype lately about it being used for vehicles (as apposed to stationary use which seems more suited).

[@shaunbeauclair9958]

Excellent question. CATL has received Giga press on the announcement of 30% less cost the LEP, I have seen press cost of cell production est $77 Kwh, and with scale $40 .Kwh. Appreciate if you could deep dive into these claims, chemistry, cost, scale-up, product-market fit, competition. Given CATL track record, I believe this will be a major game-changer in the battery industry, the main driver being Na battery is based on an abundance of cheap raws that are easy to scale.

[@amigatommy7]

From one of your graphs I think watching Hyundai, Kia, Genesis is going to be fun.

[@clarklittle2098]

Thanks for your time and hard work to share this information. I very much appreciate it.

[@ianburnett4605]

Electric Viking reports a new BYD EV which is model 3 size, with a 700 km charge range. BYD blade batteries can use all of its charge from 100% to 0% without degridation issues, I understand.

[@MrBadgas]

Great presentation. It’s always informative and stimulating to take in your presentations. More than happy to subscribe and support you on Patreon.

[@zodiacfml]

found a listing online, byd blade is simply one giant cell at 3.2V! no wonder it is so safe since it is like a low performance battery only with large capacity. Amperage or performance would be killed though, im certain with its low charging, discharge, and regenerative braking performance

[@drew031127]

Great video, thanks for putting this together. When comparing nickel packs to iron based I often wonder why people don't factor in the fact that it's not recommended to charge the nickel packs to 100% daily....so the extra density isn't really as big of an advantage. Personally, I feel that 200-300 miles is all that is really necessary and will gladly trade a few miles of range for what the LFP packs provide in safety and longevity (2-3x longer life cycles, right?).

[@伊森-l5x]

Exactly ！Life is priceless.

[@伊森-l5x]

Blade batteries have three generations of updates, and this year will meet 2.0

[@jamesswaller]

Tesla model 3 std now 267-272 miles EPA range with LFP. We just got one. Battery pack is obviously heavier than the nickel-based original, it appears they may have made an incremental change from the initial US lfp offering last year but I haven't seen definitive treatment of that. I believe they have recently squeezed more watt-hours with the updated lfp battery as the vehicle weight is a little more. Regardless, a wonderful car with worry free full charge.

[@markyormark7747]

One of the metrics that was not mentioned in this video is watt output per weight. Some LFP cell are 30"C" or 30 x times the amp hours. The BYD blade has such a low"C" rating I am pretty sure it will not support a high kW output of the motor/ drive. There needs to be a LFP cell that provides a better balance between performance and efficiency.

[@ostrich9999]

excellent video. well done. Question: how much LFP and NMC chemistry does Tesla currently use ? I believe the higher value Models S/X use NMC, still. Is that correct ?

[@thelimitingfactor]

Roughly 50/50

[@messenger8139]

Consistent draconian senior management is self-illustrative.

[@t.d.5804]

The BYD blade LFP in the MiG ( GF Germany) made Tesla Model Y SR is amazing. Available since spring 2023 it charges better, faster than other LFPs and is on par with the current LFP NCM big batteries. Plug it in at any SoC and get 3C charge rate (5-80%, charge curve still applies). Needs only 30°C for fast charge instead of >45°C with all other batteries. Got the Y now for 6 months and it replaced the much expensive LR version. EVs got better and cheaper with it.

[@AndyZach]

I love how you blow up BYD claims with facts. I remain skeptical of any prototype. I'll wait for a production car and get objective data.

[@dr-k1667]

Yeah Jordon! Happy 2022! Thanks for keeping us well informed and sticking with this especially as we are about to get into the next phase of this EV transition. It's ALL ABOUT THE BATTERIES and your contribution to understanding this most important part is very helpful in helping us understand the magnitude of what is happening and what to look for.

[@fredfrond6148]

So what would happen if several nails were punctured into a blade battery. We should ask BYD to do that test.

[@thelimitingfactor]

At some point, any battery will explode. They're like little bombs. No such thing as safe, only safer.

[@fredfrond6148]

@@thelimitingfactor interesting way to put it. Just as an ice vehicle is a bomb in it own way.

[@gospelofthomas77thpearl22]

Great to see more improvements in battery technology 🖖🏼

[@gregorybarnhart5342]

I enjoy the rigor and research in your videos. Using the Han and calling it their flagship is incorrect. Their newer cars use an 800v architecture which makes a very large efficiency improvement with far better total efficiency as you are using smaller wires with higher fields in the motors with fewer amps. Their newest car, the Dolphin, at $22000 before incentives is the car Tesla wants to build in 2 years.

[@timypp2894]

Another excellent fact based video. Learning more of these different flavoured batteries. Keep up the good work.

[@josephvanorden3782]

As always, professional and well done!

[@LawpickingLocksmith]

Good research. One point: Average operating temperatures. We all know that Lithium has the cold weakness. But how are them batteries performing in hot desert areas? Say the vehicle is parked under full sun and then has to climb a mountain cooling the cabin but also having to cool the motors, inverters and eventually the batteries themselves. Toyota had long been addressing this issue with their conventional vehicles selling only suitable cars to the respective areas. What batteries are they going to use in the semi crossing the Rocky Mountains in the summer heat?

[@hallkbrdz]

Great research - this should get more views.

[@zodiacfml]

nice but you are forgetting performance of large cells or the Blade. I think Byd blade is near their claims except performance. The Blade is still LFP not far from CAtL but CAtls cells are smaller and can be wired for higher voltages or more current.

[@xymaryai8283]

i'm still interested in NMC or other low cobalt chemistries in a blade form factor. even if the structural strength is lower, the increase in heat dissipation coupled with pressure relief could bring NMC closer to Prismatic LFP, even if it won't reach Blade LFP safety.

[@ramomammah]

Could you do a video on Northvolt? It's a startup by ex-Tesla employees that just produced their first cell out of their Gigafactory in northern Sweden.

[@4literv6]

I'm excited for northvolts potential, they already proved earlier this year a recycled cathode was just as viable as freshly mined materials. 👍🏻

[@thelimitingfactor]

I'm in contact with them. Possibly at some point I'll do a video.

[@masterblaster4784]

BYD is hedging the safety factor of LFP cells to make larger cells. The pack is competitive vs nickel based chemistries but as nickel based chemistries mature, they'll also go for larger cell formats that will give far better energy densities.

[@Sgt_Bill_T_Co]

I'm sorry I fell asleep during this so cannot comment other than It's a great cure for insomnia!

[@thelimitingfactor]

True, lol

[@altair1405]

16:25 Tesla has started delivering 60kwh model 3 sr+ in q4 2021 in europe. Do you think those are bladebatteries from byd?

[@haiting1594]

BYD launched the e-platform 3.0 subcompact hatchback model “Dolphin” in 2021 which has a range of 405km with a 44.9kWh battery. In 2022, BYD will launch an e-platform 3.0 compact sedan “Seal” aiming to compete with Model 3 with a range of 700km. Also the 2022 Model “Tang” SUV (2560kg) will be upgraded with a 108.8kWh blade battery pack with a NEDC range of 700km.

[@simonAdeWeerdt]

Betting the Blade LFP battery will be in the new $25,000 car.

[@artsnow8872]

Jordan, in a battery cell, WHAT is burning in a "runaway thermal event"? The electrical short, caused by penetration of the separator, causes what element to combust with what element? How is the redox (reduction-oxidation) activity, which is the cell's normal condition, replaced by different chemical reactions? Why won't water put out the fire? What will? Enquiring mimes need to know. Perhaps, you could do an examination episode of battery cell chemical activity initially and during a cell fire; and, cover the means (if any) of putting out such a fire?

[@thelimitingfactor]

Hi Art! Electrolyte mainly, but also plastics, binders, and although I don't know if the cathode and anode are "burning" they are reacting and releasing energy (I think). The cathode generally releases oxygen upon breakdown, I'm wondering if that has something to do with why they can't be extinguished? This question involves an entire field of research and to provide a proper answer I'd need to do a deep dive on it. Great questions.

[@nakfan]

AFAIK Toyota will use BYD Blade battery for their upcoming BEV. That underlines safety as Toyota probably will be veey cautious and have high safety before great performance. (Great graphics and content in this video... As always 👍

[@foolcellsorryfuelcellmirag4835]

Great video. One thing not discussed byd is ahead of tesla for vehicle integration. They make everything from battery to all the components in the car. This is why there Cars are far cheaper. When byd eventually sell their cars in Europe etc will shaky e up the market big time. Personally the blade battery is a fantastic piece of engineering based on cost. It's not just tesla wanting the battery its Toyota as well. Remember the blade likes to be charged to 100 percent and also longer cycle life which is handy for VTG. Personally I think they will produce a 1000km ev soon within 2 years max. Their current cars are old tech byd is moving to 800volt charging and ev architecture and improved efficency etc. Really good point you made about the importance of car manufactures making their own batteries. You can easily see a lot of the smaller car companies going bust due to being to dependent on buying from byd or catl.

[@archigoel]

That is a very simplistic thinking. With Tesla 4680, they are on par with BYD on vehicle integration front. Also, Tesla's EV production capacity is unmatched right now, in addition to its self driving tech. But BYD is in a very strong position.

[@foolcellsorryfuelcellmirag4835]

@@archigoel There not on par with Byd . Costs is key here Tesla sell cars to middles classes who can afford it. Byd is on a different level to Tesla regarding COSTS. They are producing cars that have got great tech great warranty that are affordable to the masses. Remember byd are producing tricks and buses long before tesla even though about the semi. To many like yourself are tesla fans but don't see the bigger picture.

[@TheWhiteheadhouse]

Great vid - On efficiency comparing to Tesla - don’t forget Octovalve, overall weight of car excluding batteries, Tesla must be owning this.

[@thelimitingfactor]

Amen

[@charleshaggard4341]

I always enjoy and look forward to your videos....thanks

[@avgjoe5969]

Nice breakdown. Very thorough.

[@peyoteplante]

using the same intro music as not investment advice podcast, thought maybe one of the hosts made this channel but it is not. still a great video, thanks bud

[@thelimitingfactor]

Aw man! That's the first I've heard this. And here I thought I was the only one using it, lol Thanks for dropping by and glad to hear the video provided value!

[@peyoteplante]

@@thelimitingfactor you had it first! just checked, NIA be stealin your thunder haha! keep rockin it bud!

[@mantrik007]

At the pack level, BYD can pack more individual blade battery cells without the cooling system unlike Tesla's battery pack. Perhaps that gives BYD a better volumetric density.

[@unreliablenarrator6649]

The length of the cell continues to provide better heat dissipation during puncture short-circuit.