The BYD Blade Battery Evaluated: The Hype is Real (Mostly)

[@thelimitingfactor]

Notes: 1) 1000km for NEDC is about 432 for EPA. This wasn't a Typo. insideevs.com/features/343231/heres-how-to-calculate-conflicting-ev-range-test-cycles-epa-wltp-nedc/#:~:text=So%2C%20U.S.%20BEV%2FPHEV%20drivers,a%20standard%20deviation%20of%200.092. 2) Correction from Matt Lacey! "Steel is common for cylindrical, but Al is standard for prismatic (regardless of chemistry) - lighter and better thermal conductor than steel though usually thicker. Can is grounded to +ve electrode to avoid corrosion. Blade cell is Al can, not steel" 3) However, re 2), this doesn't change the fact that they might use thicker aluminum to provide rigidity. However, there might be another thing causing the low Wh/kg in BYD: It has more surface area. 4) Tesla has started putting 60 kWh packs in China Model 3's, which provide 276 miles of range. This means the BYD Blade might provide 300 miles of range. 5) There is no such thing as a safe battery pack, only safer. That's the key takeaway with blade safety. So, yes, you can probably make it explode somehow, but it's less likely to. 6) KZbin wiped the original notes along with all the comments. Not sure why.

[@cf7922]

They might be able to get the 1,000 km range if they stack two battery packs on top of each other.

[@SxWerks]

AL extrusion is simple to make for Blade form factor.

[@Myrddnn]

Thanks for breaking this down. It's impossible to form a conclusion with the press releases alone.

[@annakissed3226]

KZbin I have found has a habit of deleting people's comments especially if the comments are outside what it thinks is the correct sort of commentary. It also remembers so once it starts happening it does so increaaingly

[@GorillaZillas]

@@annakissed3226 KZbin behaving like this really is not a good idea as whenever they "disappear" any comments I happily Invoke the old Streisand effect. I record the event and upload it to the ever increasing pile of mine and others evidence detailing what they are doing.

[@thelimitingfactor]

Notes: 1) 1000km is 621 miles nedc and 434 EPA, which is closer to reality. This is explained later in the video. Watch the video before commenting please. 2) There is no such thing as a safe battery. Every mechanism for storing energy is like a bomb. You can only ever be safer. BYD blade will still be flammable under the right conditions...just like every other battery. But the odds should be much lower, and that's what we should always be striving for - few people killed. 3) After publishing this video, I thought of one additional reason why the BYD Blade Cells my have lower gravimetric energy density: As I mention in the video, they have greater surface area. That is, I think the reduced gravimetric energy density could be either/or due to thicker steel/more surface area. 4) BYD Tang appears to have similar range (EPA) to Han. It's range is often reported in WLTP or NEDC, which are generous. 5) The was a paper published by Chao-Yang Wang claiming more impressive figures for Wh/l. But, if you check, the references, it appears to reference an article. 👀 6) It appears that Tesla LFP is getting a boost to 60kWh and 273 miles of range. This means that with BYD LFP in a Tesla vehicle, we'd be looking at almost exactly 300 miles of range. However, BYD vehicles are less efficient and it would still be a stretch to hit 300 miles of range. But they'll be there in the next couple of years.

[@apocrypth]

What are your thoughts Jordan on internal resistance of that long cells compared to shorter prismatic ones? I assume, electrodes are on one end, so "the distance electrons need to travel in the cell" is reaaaaally long, or am I wrong with this assumption?

[@thelimitingfactor]

It's a good point! I think it would create a 2-3% handicap.

[@cybertrucktruckguy3347]

As if any of us would have been wondering why you’d missed that last reason. You’re the Sherlock Holmes of batteries.

[@rogerstarkey5390]

@@thelimitingfactor I've just posted elsewhere, maybe it's not 1 long cell, but a "string" of short ones, just opened out, unravelled, with a common busbar connection at the top/ bottom performing the same function as the 4680 tabs? (short path, good energy/ heat dissipation?) Advantage, better cooling, less resistance (?) Isolation of the packets in case of damage/ failure, while exhausting through the whole cell box?

[@NickGobin]

Great stuff as always Jordan! I am loving the developments we're seeing with LFP everywhere; seems like it will make the electric transition even faster and more affordable. A note on safe batteries. I agree that there is "no such thing as a safe battery" but would add the nuance for a lithium ion battery and fire risks. There are other electrochemical energy storage systems that will not burn at all. Most of the fire risk in lithium ion batteries (both nickel and LFP) comes from the organic electrolyte, not from the stored electrical energy. In any case, we have almost no examples of deaths from EV fires (maybe the Texas Model X crash in April '21?) and very few examples of deaths even in very large stationary storage systems. Mostly the safety goals we are and should always be striving for now are protecting property - vehicles, garages, etc. (which is also important!) Obviously life safety is always the number one concern and must remain paramount, but it's important for the public to realize that battery fires kill/maim almost no one.

[@princeding2114]

As a ower of BYD Qin plus with these blade cells inside, I love this explaination. These are some of my opinions from a cell teardown I made half a year ago: 1. The case is aluminium, not steel. All prismatic cells are aluminium casing, not steel. 2. The gravimetric energy density (specific energy) is low due to large surface area to volume ratio. Ideally, a sphere would have the lowest area to volume ratio thus maximum amount of active material. The thinner and elongated the cells are, the more it is wasted on casing. 3. BYD blade cell pack is not as structurally sound. They are not as strong as cell-module-pack intergration. (I witnessed crush tests on these pack before.) 4. 9:18 The cell you showed is actually a pouch cell for PHEV models. The EV models uses single long blade cell, PHEV uses 8 pouch cells to form a "thick blade". Obviously, PHEV cares more about power while EVs cares more about enery. 5. 10:14 My car has a total pack capacity of 71.7 kWh for a similar size compared with model 3. The NEDC is 600 km while Model 3 LR in China is now 619 WLTP. Tesla wins on whole vehicle efficiency by a lot! However, from battery system's POV, BYD with LFP had an amazing achievement for their first generation product. 6. When comparing battery technology, we really should only look on packs & cells. Vehicle design would have a huge impact on range performance. I wish manufactures should post their vehicle's energy consumption rather than just "Range". 7. 13:00 The Ocean-X model might be the EK series, my vehicle's predessor. It would have an NEDC range of 700 km to start with. That is still based on the current blade cell technology. The next gen would have a pack specific energy of 180 Wh/kg. With the help of 8-in-1 platform control system and even CTC, I suspect 1000 km would be possible but with a catch on the testing standard. 8. 17:30 And cheap labour. BYD has the cheapest labour compared with other cell manufactures. No comment on that. If you would like to know more about the BYD Qin plus, here is the link to my video: kzbin.info/www/bejne/aabaq31-nr6haLM

[@philliptemple4534]

How is this incredibly informative post not upvoted more?? Phillip.

[@elctrica7826]

Thanks for the wonderful insight

[@ericng9813]

BYD will release its semi-solid stated batteries on its high end model by 2023. I believe 1000km will be standard spec for BYD lfp ev in mid end models after 2023.

[@ianjohnson458]

Amazing information. Let me throw this at you, at the risk of being presumptuous or even audacious I am afraid. From an investing standpoint, do you think battery swapping technology will become a bigger deal or as big as the blade batteries? I think the former might be more used in EU eventually. Also am I incorrect in treating these two battery paradigms as mutually exclusive? Thanks again for such a thoughtful, informative post.

[@josephkolodziejski6882]

@@ianjohnson458 Battery swapping technology is a non-starter for surprisingly abstract reasons - mainly format sensitivity due to disagreements over powers standard connections and restrictions made by the geometry required, and whether the application could tolerate lower speeds of charging given the context (hiring cars or being part of a taxi fleet could be managed by throughput of cars being charged 'out of phase' rather than individually waiting for a single vehicle.)

[@artsnow8872]

In the LFP cell, the oxygen atom is joined to the phosphorus atom; whereas, in the other formulations, the oxygen atom is joined to a metal atom, Phosphorus has a high thermal stability which would have a slower reactivity rate.

[@WillProwse]

Love your videos!!! The blades are fantastic. I plan to test some soon. Really cool technology. Love your breakdown and comparisons.

[@thelimitingfactor]

🔥 Awesome! I've seen them available online. Makes me want to tinker, lol.

[@oof_Dad]

@@thelimitingfactor Love that you and Will are connecting online- love both of your videos!

[@rogerstarkey5390]

A question for both of you! do you think these are a "full width" cell internally, or a string of individual cells (I'm struggling for an analogy..) like a string of "soup packets"(?) with top terminals for each packet on a common busbar, then layered 7(?) deep? This idea would limit the volume of cell damaged in the nail test, say 7 packets, 150mm tall by 100 mm wide instead of an 1800mm length? That would let just that section exhaust along the whole length of the container without lunching the entire unit. Hope this makes sense. (Btw.... HAPPY NEW YEAR!!)

[@mfb424]

@@rogerstarkey5390 Blade cell electrodes can be that long. Instead of rolling the cylindrical cell jelly roll they just stack those as-is. To make a oversimplified comparison.

[@rogerstarkey5390]

@@mfb424 That what I was suggesting. The assumption elsewhere seemed to be that electrodes would be at the "ends" of the "roll", effectively at the "sides" of the pack when in the car, leading to a long electrical path, increasing resistance. I suggested they should be like the tabless roll, top and/ or bottom of the pack. However, I also suggest that if the long roll is then divided (pinched?) at several points, that would avoid losing a complete roll and probably the whole cell, if one section is compromised.

[@sandyt4343]

Such an amazing and comprehensive overview of battery progress. I can’t imagine how much time is involved in assembling all of this information thank you very much for your effort

[@lukem8420]

Agreed, thank you is not enough for this amount of time and work

[@cybertrucktruckguy3347]

I love your videos. Thank you. Very cool stuff. BYD is the Only other EV stock I’ve really considered besides Tesla. Feels like those two are pulling away from the pack.

[@gregb1599]

Yeah but not the stock prices down $10 per share in a week is not that impressive, then look at the battery warranty which is extremely limited 8 years but no more loss than 40% that is almost half it's capacity! If the car has a new range of 300km but after 8 years that range drops to 180km then that is a big fail!

[@drew031127]

I agree, it's Tesla and BYD's world and everyone else is paying rent.

[@SuperGeronimo999]

@@drew031127 NIO and Vinfast too, soon...

[@macrumpton]

@@gregb1599 I'm not sure why their warranty is so conservative, but LFP generally has a very long lifespan with little dropoff even with charging to 100% and draining to 0%. Also BYD has been making batteries for a long time, it would be surprising if theirs were worse than others. I suspect the stock price is due to the lack of press they get in the US. Their weak point seems to be their marketing outside of China.

[@gregb1599]

@@macrumpton A battery is a battery which is why LFP can get very high mileage warranties but the same short 8 years, if you look into the previous BYD E6 they had a lot of battery failures, hopefully the new Blade battery is more reliable, but it may not lose capacity rather the cells just fail which of course kills that part of the battery pack. As for the stock, more than likely the announcement that 30% subsidy has been cut with 100% at end of December 31st that will kill a lot of sales for sure

[@robitmcclain6107]

Seems like BYD could incorporate the aluminium honeycomb sheet used in airplanes to get the rigidity needed across the width of the vehicle and improve the heat dissipation.

[@CarViewer]

Very good video. The issue with the reference to BYDs model Han is that it is based on a ICE platform and not optimized for efficency they took a gasoline car and engineered a battery into it. Of course your video was 2 years ago but the ocean (BYD Seal) seems to have delivered on the promise from BYD and Tesla using BYD Cells is showing that BYDs claims where not to far off back then.

[@UrbanGuitarLegend]

Jordan, my man, you never disappoint sir. Thank your for the amazing video once again. Would love to see a follow up to the Novonix video from last year as this appears to the year of the anodes, Nouveau Monde, Talga, Syrah, Novonix, BTR etc...

[@michahalczuk9071]

65$/kWh is insanely low cost for now. I remember not very long ago people speaking of

[@altair1405]

just use the nedc testcycle abd 1000km are easy ;)

[@willlauwers4098]

I had a different take on the blade short claim. Long cell means relatively long internal distance (lateral) to short location. Further distance to short = delayed current contribution ( I picture an instantaneous voltage well centered on nail puncture location. Prismatic has very steep well that normalizes quickly, while blade has less steep well and takes longer to flatten). Similar to fast charging current inhomogeneities. Long cell intentionally introduces current inhomogeneities at high power (short), extending time of short discharge due to decreased current at short, decreasing heat buildup at point of short. NOT SURE THIS IS TRUE,. Just laying out my immediate thought when you first mentioned the claim of longer short circuit. Also, heat buildup of rapid mass transfer is better distributed away from point of short and close to surface for dissipation. Thanks for producing these! Note, this is purely personal opinion.

[@thelimitingfactor]

Thanks for your thoughts!

[@rogerstarkey5390]

"long internal distance" depending on which edge the contacts are on. Put them on the "long"edge of the cell (top and or bottom) and you essentially have an unrolled 4680. Then you have a REALLY short path with all the associated benefits.

[@bobstovall5449]

You, Sir, via your channel are, Far and Away, the absolute best in providing clear and understandable information on this topic which leads me to this: One unfamiliar with battery chemistry could conclude that the OPTIMUM configuration would be Nickel/Cobalt/Aluminum chemistry in a Blade configuration providing the heat dissipation of the high-aspect ration blade cell with the gravimetric and volumetric energy density of the NCA chemistry. What say ye?

[@thelimitingfactor]

Thanks man! Tough call! That's a lot of high energy, highly reactive chemistry in one cell. Playing with fire. Plus, cylindrical is easier to manufacture. That is, we have to see how it plays out. No one has a monopoly on the truth. But, I suspect Blade was optimized for LFP while Tesla optimized for Nickel (note: I've covered this in other videos)

[@skyeparker5822]

Would you be able to do a video on ESS (the company) and flow batteries for grid scale storage in general? Would really like your take.

[@thelimitingfactor]

Eventually 🤠

[@gj1234567899999]

Not battery related but Another cost saving would be cars that just drive them self lives straight from the factory to the port to be exported or onto the train or truck trailer.

[@CagrTunca]

Great video again! I think, as the size of the battery cells decreases and the number increases, the effect of a defective cell on the total capacity of the battery decreases. In the long run, this may pose a slight disadvantage to Blade cells. One cell got bad and lost your ~%1 of capacity right away.

[@thelimitingfactor]

A good point

[@rogerstarkey5390]

I've suggested a solution in 2 different posts here.....

[@galfisk]

More cell material spread over a large area might mean that an entire cell doesn't go bad the same way as a small, compact one.

[@shumymikaball]

On the other end, since the fire protection foam is not needed, it seams easier to replace.

[@rogerstarkey5390]

@@AudiTTQuattro2003 "1 cell craps out" and you lose 0.1% performance (ask Porsche, they have that problem now)

[@AORD72]

The tests used to provide battery range seem confusing (I can never remember what specs they use). Why doesn't the industry make it simple and use a constant 100km/h range test and a constant 50km/h range test.

[@yourlydontknowjack]

I can tell you raw material prices are EXPLODING in the battery industry currently. Even for LFP, phosphorous seems to be in short supply (maybe harbinger of the looming phosphorous crysis...). So yeah, everybody is unhappy. Hopefully things normalize but i fear battery prices per kWh will make an upturn for the first time in a long time.

[@MrHagum]

Good news for my country (Morocco) 85% of world wide phosphate reserves !

[@xxwookey]

I did wonder about the phosphorus part of this. People have been worried about the limited supply for years given the rate it's being used for fertiliser. I'm not sure if the battery usage would only be a tiny blip on current usage so there is plenty so long as we can persuade people not to sprinkle it all on fields. Or if in fact a planet-full of LFP EVs is enough phosphorous to be a problem. We can just collect it out of everyone's wee...

[@shazzizzle]

Jordan, since you cover both batteries and gigacastings, I have to believe you have an opinion about the next step for Tesla in manufacturing. Cost wise, all vehicles should have front and rear castings with a "structural pack." The structural pack therefore has to be NMC or LFP or whatever future chemistry is used...and also 4680, 2170, and whatever other form factor they want to put in there. We know they will have a 4680 and 2170 structural pack, but what about the LFP version? Can they use their current dry process to make LFP cells? Also, when will Tesla swap the M3 to front and rear castings?

[@thelimitingfactor]

Yup! Video is scripted 😀 LFP 4680 is feasible and may offer some advantages.

[@benzengap6804]

@@thelimitingfactor Referencing from your past videos about 4680s, an LFP 4680 would have more active material/kwh, hence greater specific energy, ergo more miles.

[@MrVelociraptor75]

Awesome video Jordan! Thank you once again for your in-depth analysis Very interesting to see another form-factor for batteries being used. I like the idea, it seems smart. If this is the path to a [sub-]$25k Tesla too, that would be awesome

[@willyolio9590]

I just wish I could get a car with those batteries in north america...

[@rhiantaylor3446]

In years to come it will be interesting to see a comparison of the torsional resistance of the blade-based Tesla battery and the 4680-based battery - or for that matter a comparison of the respective car's torsional rigidity. I am no mechanical engineer but the blade battery looks more likely to fit the role of a structural member.

[@benzengap6804]

Although the 4680 battery is structured in a honeycombed design. In principle, a honeycomb can handle lots of load stress in all angles.

[@terrysullivan1992]

They both work exceptionally well. The Tesla 4680s are cast into a solid block which is why it is so rigid and strong. The wonderful thing about all of this is that it all is exactly what is Elon's goal for electrically powered transportation.

[@mackxue779]

Been waiting for your video on blade! Thank you for the brilliant explanation as always!

[@menghawtok7837]

Really enjoyed this video. Answered many questions I had about BYD blade battery! Thanks for the great content!

[@eugeneleroux1842]

Thank you for such an informative presentation, done so professionally.

[@Madame702]

If you look at the number that Tesla just did this quarter, their cost should be going up, but it went down and book a higher profit margin. I think that what happen is that in the Fremont factory in the third quarter and they installed LFP batteries for the cars driving down cost. That just amazing, I haven't seen that kind of adjustment and turn around in the car industry.

[@rogerstarkey5390]

You're listening to the "kiwi connection"? (T.E)😉

[@michaelstarkey9745]

Ty ty ty Mr Jordan u deserve a Nobel prize money n professional transisionalism

[@brucec954]

Great video as usual. Would be interesting to see a video on "revolutionary new Sodium batteries" - seen a lot of hype lately about it being used for vehicles (as apposed to stationary use which seems more suited).

[@shaunbeauclair9958]

Excellent question. CATL has received Giga press on the announcement of 30% less cost the LEP, I have seen press cost of cell production est $77 Kwh, and with scale $40 .Kwh. Appreciate if you could deep dive into these claims, chemistry, cost, scale-up, product-market fit, competition. Given CATL track record, I believe this will be a major game-changer in the battery industry, the main driver being Na battery is based on an abundance of cheap raws that are easy to scale.

[@ramomammah]

Could you do a video on Northvolt? It's a startup by ex-Tesla employees that just produced their first cell out of their Gigafactory in northern Sweden.

[@4literv6]

I'm excited for northvolts potential, they already proved earlier this year a recycled cathode was just as viable as freshly mined materials. 👍🏻

[@thelimitingfactor]

I'm in contact with them. Possibly at some point I'll do a video.

[@ronaldgarrison5528]

At least two of the major claims for the blade battery sound specious to me. (1) fill factor is not necessarily any better for a blade battery than for cylinders. You have to circulate coolant somewhere. You can cool the cells at their ends, through a cooling plate, But with either packaging type, you need to circulate coolant past all available surfaces to keep all parts of the cell from overheating. (2) A cell design that is thin in one dimension may not help with punctures as much as you may think. If the blades lie flat in the pack, they will have to be stacked, so they will end up with penetration depth possibly as bad as for a prismatic cell, or a bunch of cylinders stacked on end. OTOH if the blades are laid in vertically, mast punctures will be along an edge. That may actually be safer, but the same will be true for a cylinder that stands vertically. With either type of design, I think you have a fair amount of latitude in deciding how to mount the cells in the pack for best safety and other criteria.

[@thelimitingfactor]

Good points! 1) Will be covered in my 4680 LFP video.

[@xxwookey]

Yeah - I want to know where the coolant goes. Some articles suggest that there isn't any because they are running these cells at 60C, so only have passive cooling and embedded heaters. this makes sense because power output and input is much higher at 60C and internal resistances are low and it helps some issue with the carbon anode that I don't understand, and the material is heat-stable at these temps, unlike nickel-based cathodes. If that's all true then it will improve pack density, although I presume they still need an ali sheet in between each cell to wick heat to the top and bottom plates, but maybe not coolant channels? But the e-platform 3.0 (next gen used in the Ocean-X) talks about a heat-pump for heating and cooling, which implies a coolant circuit again. This article shows an exploded pack diagram with a coolant loop on the top surface only, so relying on conduction to get the heat to there. medium.com/batterybits/a-sharp-contender-byds-blade-battery-ced2ef1dc8f8

[@伊森-l5x]

Puncture is a battery-safe test for the simple realization of "absolute short circuit"! This is one of the toughest extreme tests of all batteries!

[@伊森-l5x]

Therefore, BYD has been developing blades for a long time and has encountered many process limits, such as ultra-thin winding and length, which are very difficult, so BYD has a blade battery patent in 2019！

[@jimcarroll8977]

Loved the "My Little Runaway" reference...

[@adriangabrielgramada1016]

Very nice explanation ! Details, pace, imaging ... everything 😉 Thank you! BTW I also have tried with little to no succes to propose to Tesla a very very similar design of blade battery. It is 99% similar to BYD battery without even knowing it existed because it hasn't been made public yet. In my design I also explain a far better manufacturing method that can yield exponential quantities ... I wonder if BYD / Tesla would even listen to small inventors and actually have a way to hear them ...

[@Steph1]

I don’t often watch your videos because they’re more technical than I can focus on. But when I do, I’m blown away by your quality research 👌

[@gregvanpaassen]

Another unknown with the blade form factor is cycle life. With a large cell there may be more chance for irregularities to accumulate in different ends of the cell over multiple discharge-charge cycles. On the other hand, efficient heat removal may work to extend cell cycle lifetime, even with the more heat-tolerant LFP chemistry.

[@jonathan4831]

The cover for the battery pack is made with a honeycomb core composite plastic plus fiberglass panel to reduce weight.

[@clarklittle2098]

Thanks for your time and hard work to share this information. I very much appreciate it.

[@josephvanorden3782]

As always, professional and well done!

[@MrBadgas]

Great presentation. It’s always informative and stimulating to take in your presentations. More than happy to subscribe and support you on Patreon.

[@kreelaban3420]

All it really proved to me is do not ever let anyone under your BEV vehicle of they have a hammer and a nail in their hands.

[@markyormark7747]

One of the metrics that was not mentioned in this video is watt output per weight. Some LFP cell are 30"C" or 30 x times the amp hours. The BYD blade has such a low"C" rating I am pretty sure it will not support a high kW output of the motor/ drive. There needs to be a LFP cell that provides a better balance between performance and efficiency.

[@ianburnett4605]

Electric Viking reports a new BYD EV which is model 3 size, with a 700 km charge range. BYD blade batteries can use all of its charge from 100% to 0% without degridation issues, I understand.

[@fixitbrewbaycustom854]

I’m curious why you never mentioned anything about the BMS system’s in this comparison? Plus I would like to see if they have any intentions of working with boat’s because of their safety issues!

[@thelimitingfactor]

Because it was about the Blade Cell, not the BMS. Just like I talked about the chemistry of LFP in a separate video. Hmmmm....boats

[@valdimareiriksson101]

Does the travel time of each electron throught this long battery not become a factor ? Heat/energy loss? What I mean by that is the tabless electrode in the 4680 was there for a reason ?

[@thelimitingfactor]

LFP can handle heat better, but their may be efficiency losses vs 4680. Maybe 2-3% less efficient?

[@jamesswaller]

Tesla model 3 std now 267-272 miles EPA range with LFP. We just got one. Battery pack is obviously heavier than the nickel-based original, it appears they may have made an incremental change from the initial US lfp offering last year but I haven't seen definitive treatment of that. I believe they have recently squeezed more watt-hours with the updated lfp battery as the vehicle weight is a little more. Regardless, a wonderful car with worry free full charge.

[@zodiacfml]

found a listing online, byd blade is simply one giant cell at 3.2V! no wonder it is so safe since it is like a low performance battery only with large capacity. Amperage or performance would be killed though, im certain with its low charging, discharge, and regenerative braking performance

[@dr-k1667]

Yeah Jordon! Happy 2022! Thanks for keeping us well informed and sticking with this especially as we are about to get into the next phase of this EV transition. It's ALL ABOUT THE BATTERIES and your contribution to understanding this most important part is very helpful in helping us understand the magnitude of what is happening and what to look for.

[@wino99999]

Interesting Video - Thanks. One observation: there did seem to be multiple instances of the same detail throughout the video which I felt was off-putting.

[@drew031127]

Great video, thanks for putting this together. When comparing nickel packs to iron based I often wonder why people don't factor in the fact that it's not recommended to charge the nickel packs to 100% daily....so the extra density isn't really as big of an advantage. Personally, I feel that 200-300 miles is all that is really necessary and will gladly trade a few miles of range for what the LFP packs provide in safety and longevity (2-3x longer life cycles, right?).

[@伊森-l5x]

Exactly ！Life is priceless.

[@伊森-l5x]

Blade batteries have three generations of updates, and this year will meet 2.0

[@andrewbuck5016]

I had no idea they were so cheap! Would the thin form factor allow additional cells to be added without expanding the floor of the car as much? With cylindrical cells you have to double the thickness of the floor if one layer of cells isn't enough, but it seems like the blade wouldn't have this problem.

[@thelimitingfactor]

Yeah man! And it's a great point. BYD advised they were actually able to make the floor thinner and increase the aerodynamic efficiency with the blade.

[@andrewbuck5016]

@@thelimitingfactor It surprises me then that the haven't been able to make any long range cars then. If the floor is already thinner and additional blade layers can be added iteratively then why is volumetric density the limiting factor for LFP? It seems like this a game changer for the viability of LFP for long range cars. If NMC has 10% better volumetric efficiency then can't BYD just make the floor 10% thicker to make up the difference?

[@musaran2]

They are always shown placed vertically, presumable for structure. So no height modulation. But they might be manufacturable at different height? I don't know if cylindrical can easily do that too.

[@MineGames66]

If they add multiple layers wouldn't that kind of ruin the extra safety part? I mean then the nail would have too puncture multiple blade cells for it to be a fair comparison with prismatic cells.

[@rogerstarkey5390]

@@thelimitingfactor Imagine if they took a stack and "knocked them over" to an angle of 45°? I make that about a ...(takes shoes off to count on toes).... roughly 29% reduction in the height of the stack ( √2 ?) Maybe a 30 mm thinner floor section? Useful?

[@Kage1128]

High range doesnt matter for most people also it is going to take way longer to charge

[@LawpickingLocksmith]

Good research. One point: Average operating temperatures. We all know that Lithium has the cold weakness. But how are them batteries performing in hot desert areas? Say the vehicle is parked under full sun and then has to climb a mountain cooling the cabin but also having to cool the motors, inverters and eventually the batteries themselves. Toyota had long been addressing this issue with their conventional vehicles selling only suitable cars to the respective areas. What batteries are they going to use in the semi crossing the Rocky Mountains in the summer heat?

[@greggpon7466]

Nice explanation of a technical problems at the cutting edge of the EV industry.

[@foolcellsorryfuelcellmirag4835]

Great video. One thing not discussed byd is ahead of tesla for vehicle integration. They make everything from battery to all the components in the car. This is why there Cars are far cheaper. When byd eventually sell their cars in Europe etc will shaky e up the market big time. Personally the blade battery is a fantastic piece of engineering based on cost. It's not just tesla wanting the battery its Toyota as well. Remember the blade likes to be charged to 100 percent and also longer cycle life which is handy for VTG. Personally I think they will produce a 1000km ev soon within 2 years max. Their current cars are old tech byd is moving to 800volt charging and ev architecture and improved efficency etc. Really good point you made about the importance of car manufactures making their own batteries. You can easily see a lot of the smaller car companies going bust due to being to dependent on buying from byd or catl.

[@archigoel]

That is a very simplistic thinking. With Tesla 4680, they are on par with BYD on vehicle integration front. Also, Tesla's EV production capacity is unmatched right now, in addition to its self driving tech. But BYD is in a very strong position.

[@foolcellsorryfuelcellmirag4835]

@@archigoel There not on par with Byd . Costs is key here Tesla sell cars to middles classes who can afford it. Byd is on a different level to Tesla regarding COSTS. They are producing cars that have got great tech great warranty that are affordable to the masses. Remember byd are producing tricks and buses long before tesla even though about the semi. To many like yourself are tesla fans but don't see the bigger picture.

[@timypp2894]

Another excellent fact based video. Learning more of these different flavoured batteries. Keep up the good work.

[@Anti-socialSocialClub]

Biggup the reference to Bon Jovi !

[@gospelofthomas77thpearl22]

Great to see more improvements in battery technology 🖖🏼

[@robitmcclain6107]

BYD is to supply lots of grid storage battery packs in California. Will those use blade batteries?

[@thelimitingfactor]

Not sure! Good question

[@kathakung]

In drill test, why Blade have more temperature swing than LFP?, Lfp 25.5 to 26.1 C but Blade 25.8 to 29C, Blade release more energy(heat)?

[@shijuokphun1379]

The range of the car are relatively to it's motor power consumption not just how much charge it's battery holds. Han only have half the Tesla model S power...I think we need to put that into the equation.

[@charleshaggard4341]

I always enjoy and look forward to your videos....thanks

[@islammohamed1441]

Hey Jordan, great overview! Is there any certainty about what battery will be produced in the new Shanghai Battery Module Plant? Is it CATL LFP? Tesla 4680? Other?

[@thelimitingfactor]

Hey man! I'm not sure which model plant you're referring to. 2170s are incorporated at Tesla factory for LR. CATL makes the entire pack for the SR+.

[@islammohamed1441]

@@thelimitingfactor Wu Wa's channel: Last day of 21 years BMP2 construction progress update\Giga shanghai\4K # 392

[@elektrotehnik94]

@@islammohamed1441 Link kzbin.info/www/bejne/nXK7ZoJ8iLyIjJI I wasn't even aware (or have completely forgot) that they're building out capacity in Shanghai... Are they building out only battery capacity, or only car production capacity, or both? O.o Thanks in advance

[@islammohamed1441]

@@elektrotehnik94 According to a factory map, this zone was labelled BMP (Battery module plant).

[@elektrotehnik94]

@@islammohamed1441Thank you

[@kiwim3p587]

I think it's a mistake to use volumetric energy density to calculate vehicle efficiency, weight has much more impact than size on efficiency and you are assuming space is a limiting factor on pack size which isn't necessarily true.

[@nakfan]

AFAIK Toyota will use BYD Blade battery for their upcoming BEV. That underlines safety as Toyota probably will be veey cautious and have high safety before great performance. (Great graphics and content in this video... As always 👍

[@artsnow8872]

Jordan, in a battery cell, WHAT is burning in a "runaway thermal event"? The electrical short, caused by penetration of the separator, causes what element to combust with what element? How is the redox (reduction-oxidation) activity, which is the cell's normal condition, replaced by different chemical reactions? Why won't water put out the fire? What will? Enquiring mimes need to know. Perhaps, you could do an examination episode of battery cell chemical activity initially and during a cell fire; and, cover the means (if any) of putting out such a fire?

[@thelimitingfactor]

Hi Art! Electrolyte mainly, but also plastics, binders, and although I don't know if the cathode and anode are "burning" they are reacting and releasing energy (I think). The cathode generally releases oxygen upon breakdown, I'm wondering if that has something to do with why they can't be extinguished? This question involves an entire field of research and to provide a proper answer I'd need to do a deep dive on it. Great questions.

[@civilizaserifusa4731]

Can't help wondering why the raw egg is present for the competing technology nail tests but absent for the blade. Is it to simulate the cooling liquid? I suspect it helps contribute to the thermal breakdown of metal based batteries. By present I refer to the nail actually passing through the egg en-route to puncturing the battery thereby delivering the liquid egg directly into the puncture hole.

[@hallkbrdz]

Great research - this should get more views.

[@haiting1594]

BYD launched the e-platform 3.0 subcompact hatchback model “Dolphin” in 2021 which has a range of 405km with a 44.9kWh battery. In 2022, BYD will launch an e-platform 3.0 compact sedan “Seal” aiming to compete with Model 3 with a range of 700km. Also the 2022 Model “Tang” SUV (2560kg) will be upgraded with a 108.8kWh blade battery pack with a NEDC range of 700km.

[@amigatommy7]

From one of your graphs I think watching Hyundai, Kia, Genesis is going to be fun.

[@GoCoyote]

As always, another cogent and informative discussion.

[@philoso377]

The comparison including Tesla cell was made accounting of “dead space” trapped in between cylindrical casing?

[@danielmacleon3008]

Thanks for the video, glad I found your channel today. I just took delivery of a 2022 BYD Dolphin EA2. I choose the car because of the Blade battery pack and the low cost. Living in Guangzhou the small size was important but I wanted a safe battery too. I just charged my car for the first time and the fast charger stopped at 95% charge. I was wondering about your thoughts of charging the Blade battery to 100%. It wasn't mentioned in this video and I understand that it's not a problem for the LFP. Thanks!

[@thelimitingfactor]

Correct! LFP is robust to high states of charge. Not invincible to it, but very tolerant. In fact, it's a good idea to charge it to 100% at least once a week for the BMS to balance the cells.

[@GantryG]

Another excellent report, thanks! 😀

[@samguapo4573]

@the limiting factor I'm curious on battery longevity with liquid cooled LIFEPO4. Tesla has managed to stop degradation of Li Ions to the max using their liquid cooled system. I'm curious more on this matter.

[@peyoteplante]

using the same intro music as not investment advice podcast, thought maybe one of the hosts made this channel but it is not. still a great video, thanks bud

[@thelimitingfactor]

Aw man! That's the first I've heard this. And here I thought I was the only one using it, lol Thanks for dropping by and glad to hear the video provided value!

[@peyoteplante]

@@thelimitingfactor you had it first! just checked, NIA be stealin your thunder haha! keep rockin it bud!

[@avgjoe5969]

Nice breakdown. Very thorough.

[@DimitarBerberu]

Now imagine the BYD 2nd gen blade batt with Super Fast charging & Distance...

[@unreliablenarrator6649]

The length of the cell continues to provide better heat dissipation during puncture short-circuit.

[@MsTyrie]

It seems rational to automatically discharge cells that are adjacent to a cell that is overheating. If the problem cell ignites, at least the adjacent cells will contribute less to the conflagration.

[@MsTyrie]

Granted, rapid discharge of adjacent cells would produce heat and exacerbate the overheating of the failing cell. Maybe there would be no net safety benefit.

[@MrAjgreenfeld]

Great video as always, Jordan. I've always assumed Tesla would use 4680 format, for their in-house LFP. Do you think that will be the case, (specifically for their in-house LFP cells)? Or will they pursue something like the BYD blade? Side note: I'm assuming Tesla won't start producing a 4680 or any in-house LFP for a while. What timeline are you assuming, for in-house designed LFP production for Tesla?

[@benzengap6804]

The 4680 LFP, if made, will be manufactured later than the nickel...The nickel 4680 will be for the higher priced long ranged and performance models by reason of higher profit margins. On the other hand, the LFP 4680 is for the standard model.

[@rcinfla9017]

At time point 7:50 where you talk about capacity/wt. there is a factor of electrode thickness design. This is a trade off in cell design for maximizing AH capacity or design for high %C discharge current rate. Thick electrodes (anode and cathode layer thickness) maximize capacity for wt & volume since there is less copper, aluminum foil and separator layers which take up wt & volume but do not contribute to lithium content which determines raw capacity of a cell. The downside of thick electrodes is lithium ions have greater distance and greater resistance to migrate through the thicker electrodes. This thicker electrode design, along with reduce current collector foil layers, decreases ability to draw high amperage from a given AH capacity cell. Since AH capacity sells cells and manufacturing cost is lower, thick electrode cells appear attractive. However, in high peak current draw EV applications they are not well suited for cell longevity. Tesla Blade cells may have decided on a more optimum electrode (thinner) thickness for their EV application than CATL cells.

[@zodiacfml]

10:25 simple, just look at munros video of the Tesla LFP pack with huge space for another module.

[@whitlockbr]

Love the 80s music reference 👌

[@thelimitingfactor]

🤜🤛😁

[@aloisdanner2599]

At 13:41, where would lucid sit on this chart?

[@Carl_in_AZ]

I would like to hear your take on Sion Power and Atlis batteries.

[@ostrich9999]

excellent video. well done. Question: how much LFP and NMC chemistry does Tesla currently use ? I believe the higher value Models S/X use NMC, still. Is that correct ?

[@thelimitingfactor]

Roughly 50/50

[@scottmcshannon6821]

why the nail test? is that something likely to happen in an accident? if not what is the purpose of the test?

[@Hannibal5812]

Hi, Thank you for your video and deep analysis. Have you heard of the GAC Aion graphene battery ? It seems too good to be true too...

[@rogerfroud300]

I'd be interested to know how the internal resistance and charge rate compares to 4680 Tabless Cells.

[@thelimitingfactor]

Much lower. Probably increases the efficiency of the 4680 vs the BYD by 2-3%?

[@伊森-l5x]

Blade batteries can withstand faster charging! Because fast charging will cause heat accumulation, and the blade is easy to dissipate heat, it can already be applied 800v or even 1500v charging in the future! 4680 I think it should be difficult, afraid of charging too big explosion！

[@markoverton5858]

Great vlog tons of info 👍👍👏👏👏👏👏

[@macrumpton]

In the short term there are bound to be shortages of battery materials due to the unprecedented demand, and this will likely affect LFP batteries less than other types as Iron and phosphate are unlikely to be a bottleneck. While Tesla could use the LFP batteries in their cars, this would require a bit of reengineering and lots of testing to get it ready for production. I suspect a more likely scenario is that Tesla is planning a big push on megapacks and using the cheapest safest battery, regardless of energy density makes sense. It also occurs to me that the Semi chargers are going to need some kind of battery buffer unless they are going to run extra high capacity lines to those chargers, and the Blade batteries would be ideal for that as well. Now the puzzle is, why is BYD stock so lethargic?

[@larryteslaspacexboringlawr739]

thank you and posted to reddit

[@arthanareeswaranbalasubram1147]

Good details. Intersting

[@Deveonn]

Can’t wait on more on Tesla 4680’s with LFP!

[@teknophyle1]

I have questions about the test environment versus the real world. In these puncture tests it looks like the battery is exposed to open air, meaning more ideal cooling conditions. So my question is what kind of airflow do these batteries get when they are installed? I'd venture a guess that they will get hotter when enclosed in a car chassis. Are there puncture tests of these batteries while they are installed in a car?

[@lwwells]

Another excellent video sir.

[@ChaimLoecher]

So Blade reduces layers inside the battery... but stacking them will simply add those layers back 🤔 you need plenty of blades to make a 90kwh battery pack

[@bobby1970]

When are these BYD Blade batteries going to be utilized in electric vehicles, and which company will use them first and have them ready for sale to the public?

[@thelimitingfactor]

Now and BYD and Now

[@bobby1970]

@@thelimitingfactor In the United States? That's where I am.

[@IRWBRW964]

Supply chain issues in 2021 and high raw material costs in 2022. It’s a tough time for struggling car makers.

[@GT4viper]

Hey TLF, I have a question and you the only person I know who might be up to the challenge of answering it. Everyone blames legacy auto for not making compelling competitive EV’s decades, even a century ago. But scientifically was that feasable in those eras? Could we have made Blade or 4680 equivalent batteries with concerted effort back then? Or were there too many Scientific/Technological barriers that were insurmountable for the time? I would love to hear your thoughts of whether or not we could have mass produced period competitive electric cars when our parents learned to drive.

[@thelimitingfactor]

No, it wasn't feasible that long ago. Legacy gave us what we wanted based on what tech was available, and then like most large organizations became lax, lazy, and defensive. At best, they could have started pushing on the tech 20 years ago rather than ...now, lol. To answer your questions would take more than the comments section. It's something I've wanted to do, but in my experience, it would appeal to a minority of my viewers. Great question!

[@GT4viper]

@@thelimitingfactor Well I hope you find the time someday as I think it’s an highly interesting and somewhat important topic. Either way I look forward to your next video!

[@nspinicelli]

Is now a bad time to buy a new base model 3 rear wheel drive?