What is an LFP Battery? | EV Basics

[@EVPulse]

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[@frankcoffey]

It's interesting we didn't have concerns about how cobalt when it's used to refine gasoline, only when it's used to make batteries.

[@AutoEsoterica]

This is true, but if I understand correctly, the cobalt in oil refineries is only used as a catalyst to remove sulfur. The cobalt is not an additive in the fuel, nor does it get burned. Still, something to think about. - Craig

[@frankcoffey]

@@AutoEsoterica Some of the cobalt is lost during refining of gas but batteries can be both reused and recycled.

[@dianewallace6064]

Agreed. Cobalt is used to refine gas and Cobalt is used in portable electronic devices. My reference is Raymond Leury, retired President of the Electric Vehicle Council of Ottawa (EVCO). I'm not advocating for the use of Cobalt. I'm just trying to get all the data out there.

[@davidbeppler3032]

Look.... cobalt has been mined by children of the Congo to make gas for decades. Now it is also being used for batteries. That is a problem. Batteries are reusable and recyclable. That makes any Cobalt mined a closed loop and will put children out of work. See the problem? Nobody will feed them for free. No work, no food. If we stop making as much gas those children will starve!

[@That-Guy_]

And it wasn't being talked about for smartphones that use a higher percentage of cobalt

[@miraphycs7377]

despite what some people would have you believe, the entity that holds most patent in LFP is actually CNRS of France not Chinese firms. CNRS (among with other entities) signed a exclusive licensing deal with Chinese firms for LFP. That is why Chinese firms like BYD and CATL produces LFP but virtually everybody else does not atm. Thus, when BYD or CATL battery manufacturer builds and sells LFP batteries they pay small licensing fee to the LFP consortium. Now this arrangement worked in the beginning because it was exclusive and it was only limited to chinese domestic market (there was a gentleman agreement of sort). But now that chinese wants to expand beyond the domestic market and the exclusivity is coming to an end more player both in china and abroad are gonna join the LFP game. Ford or Tesla couldn't license it directly from CNRS because an exclusive licensing agreement and other restrictions was in place.

[@gsogymrat]

I bought an LFP Tesla Model 3 in March 2023 to take advantage of the $7500 tax rebate before it expired. I keep my cars for a long time, often 20+ years, and I hope the Tesla will last that long with proper care.

[@johnreese3762]

Ditto!

[@OBigSchlongKenobie]

Probably will if these batteries really go 300k miles. And by then, batt tech will probably be cheaper than today.

[@ewitte12]

My experience with LFP batteries in solar is what got me interested in EVs. They can take WAY more.

[@dianewallace6064]

I wanted an LFP battery but Hyundai had the best prices for EVs when I was in the market. $38K for an Ioniq6.

[@johngonon1507]

Ford recommendations actually say (if I'm not mistaken, I don't own one but someone read me the lines in his owner manual) that it should be charged to 100% once a month. It doesn't say to charge it to 100% all the time. The 100% charge is necessary to have a correct battery capacity reading. Also LFP do much more cycles, so even if not charging optimally it should last for quite a long time. I did see somewhere, that in case of leakage, LFP batteries reject H2 ... which is very flammable. I'd be curious to know about the safety tests (supposedly more than a hundred) that were run on my NMC battery, but the manufacturer didn't want to tell me (although it seems to me it should be something they'd be proud sharing).

[@vincentrobinette1507]

Hydrogen evolution only occurs in a severe over-charge condition, and is still less of a problem, than Lead Acid batteries. the same overcharge fault is absolutely disastrous, if it happens with NMC batteries.

[@vincentrobinette1507]

While it may not be super important which chemistry you get, it's VERY important to know which one you got. Knowing which battery my car has will make a huge difference in deciding on a charging regimen. I agree....If given the choice, I would probably choose LFP, just because of my familiarity with it, working with solar. LFP is proving to be the ideal energy storage solution for solar, because of it's forgiveness to partial states of charge, and charge acceptance efficiency, as well as longevity. In this application, the battery doesn't need to accelerate itself. In a stationary application, the battery can be as bulky and heavy as it wants, as long as it's cheap, reliable, and durable.

[@00MR300]

Didn’t know Logic retired from rap and started an EV channel, but I’m here for it 🎉

[@edmackdaddy]

Going forward auto reviewers should mention battery pack type in their reviews. More useful than discussing a swoopy back end or angles of taillights.

[@slscamg]

Most auto journalists don’t know much about the technical details of ICE cars let alone EVs

[@stevekight1955]

My 2023 ID 4 all wheel drive from Chattanooga Tennessee has the LFP battery pack.

[@isacgonzalez5191]

LFP can not be charged to 100% regularly. The only reason it's recommended to charge to 100% periodically is for the cars system to reset and state the correct state of charge. NMC uses battery voltage to calculate the battery state of charge. LFP has a more constant voltage therefore is not able to use that as a measure to calculate the state of charge. Instead they use electrons in vs out to calculate battery charge. In order to maintain it calibrated, it needs to be charged to 100% periodically.

[@ewitte12]

This is why the plan is 100% charge but don't charge but maybe twice a week. That will keep most days around 25-75%

[@foppo100]

@@ewitte12 Stop with this bullshit please.If a battery can't take 100% charge it isn't fit for purpose.

[@qilu2004]

Nonsense, LFP can charge to 100 and discharge to 0 regularly without degradation.

[@johnreese3762]

Great info/video, thanks! Love Michelin!

[@kalwu3483]

Very informative as always, did EV Pulse ever consider doing some content about electric scooters, bikes or motorcycles?

[@BobbieGWhiz]

I was able to get the base 2023 model three last year while it qualified for the $7500 tax credit. Unfortunately it no longer qualifies. It has lost about 4% range in a little over 13,000 miles and 15 months of driving (273 - 262 miles).

[@DeniSaputta]

Cobalt is used in the process of making diesel fuel But the electric car industry has been blamed for child labor in its mining.When the electric car industry moves to LFP .The oil industry is still trying to blame EVs for environmental damage.

[@celinusia]

LPF second blade battery generation 215KW/kg density

[@sunrisejak2709]

The BYD Seal has an LFP "blade" battery pack. It can be fitted with dual motors for high output and 0-100kph in 3.8 seconds. The range is equivalent to a similarly sized NMC battery in a Tesla model 3 for example. The new 2025 Seal model has 800 volt architecture that provides for faster charge times better than some NMC counterparts. While the BYD Seal is not sold in USA the technology in BYDs LFP blade battery proves many of the statements here regarding LFP and NMC attributes erroneous or at least dated.

[@garethrobinson2275]

True, they are becoming dated. I agree that it appears LFP will likely take over from NMC in most applications in the coming years. The disadvantages for LFP are rapidly being mitigated, leaving all the advantages of a winner. The game is not over though, with other battery types also looking to compete in the future.

[@t.d.5804]

The Tesla Model Y SR (german made ones) got the BYD blade LFP as well, best battery so far, outpaces the more expensive NMC versions

[@Reddylion]

Nice video

[@beebop9808]

Wish somebody would get busy making LFP cells in the states so we don't have to go to China for them I'm in solar myself. Best cells out there at the moment. Not recommended to make a habit of charging to 100%. Only real issue I see with EV application is the fact that they can't be charged at all in freezing conditions without being heated. That being said though, there have been some advancements recently that have made for some crazy C rates. Something we solar enthusiasts won't make use of but awesome for the automotive sector.

[@dianewallace6064]

Thanks, I hadn't heard abou t the 75% to 100% charging affecting longtime battery health. We shall see in the real world.

[@AutoEsoterica]

That's always the thing. Real-world use will tell the true story. - Craig

[@dianewallace6064]

@@AutoEsoterica Yup!!

[@KTPurdy]

Not to mention that LFP are more environmentally friendly to mine and are the easiest pack to recycle; benefiting recycling agency more which turther cultivates a recycling industry.

[@pieter85]

Why easier to recycle? I always heard the other way around from recyclers... BTW, there is NO economic value to recycle a LFP pack. So it's gonna be Second life or landfill. NMC will be recycled because of Nickel & Cobalt.

[@KTPurdy]

@@pieter85 Because at scale these companies have developed ways to breakdown battery packs and extract their minerals for 1/5 the cost of mining and refining.

[@pieter85]

​@@KTPurdy So you got no sources...

[@KTPurdy]

@@pieter85 Google is your friend. Look it up yourself. I'm not burning up my time because you're lazy.

[@pieter85]

@@KTPurdy Because LFP recycling is not profitable ;) NMC recycling is.

[@carefreeclubhouse1714]

People just need to buy what suits their life style.

[@RobertHenke-b4k]

I recently bought a new Equinox EV. I understand that it is best to only charge to 80% normally. However is there any reason that you should occasionally allow the battery to almost fully discharge.

[@TalReviews]

No, try and keep it charged above 20-30% always

[@larryc1616]

Yes!

[@JohnWhitling]

The 2024 Polestar 2 single motor model has an LFP battery as well.

[@bbokdoong]

LFP battery does not hold charge as well as NMC batteries in extreme weather conditions.

[@waleazez7851]

It's really about you personally, i don't think LFP is an upgrade in the battery technology, but more of a sidegrade, i live in an average climate (18-30 degree celsius) so not really extreme conditions, i need ~100km per day to commute to my work so a Sealion 6 hybrid for me is perfect (100% gives me a 100km for the LFP battery with the hybrid engine giving me 1100km range for long trips. I've only had this car for 6 months and i rarely use my hybrid engine, 98% is with the battery and i have never refuelled my gas in those 6 months.

[@petrirantanen8132]

I'm a bit late to the party but there were two glaring errors in this otherwise good video. In reality LFP batteries do not like being charged to 100% but occasionally you're required to do that to maintain range accuracy. And the "happy zone" for NMC batteries is around 50%, not 80%.

[@johnroberts9922]

LFP. With approximately 5,000 charge cycles at 100% capacity, I choose 95% battery recharging at every charging cycle. I will certainly be dead long before that LFP battery degrades to 80% of its original capacity.

[@charlieh2492]

So in a nutshell less performance, less range, longer to charge and more weight...great I call that real progress!

[@robtangent4664]

Be able to charge all the way to100% instead of always 80%, LFP already has 20% range advantage over NMC by default in my opinion.

[@grahamcastle8189]

Which preforms better in the winter?

[@kevinlin4895]

Apparently NMC

[@miraphycs7377]

NMC/NCA/NMCA

[@dianewallace6064]

Rivian is saying if you buy their LFP battery just keep it plugged in (not charging) but just plugged-in in extreme cold temperatures. I was very interested getting a Rivian with an LFP battery but my husband bought his Rivian in 2023 when this LFP battery was not available yet.

[@FabioCapela]

Sodium, actually. It's even cheaper and lower density than LFP, but it's safer and for the formulation being used in a few Chinese EVs seems to handle temperatures below freezing with little loss in performance. That being said, it's more a matter of proper thermal management than chemistry. A car with an LFP battery, but with a good quality heat pump keeping the battery temperature within an acceptable range, will see a loss of range in freezing temperatures similar to the loss of range seen in gasoline-powered cars.

[@LakeLake123]

For a while, even Tesla was advising against getting their LFP models if you lived in a cold climate. I assume that still applies (??)

[@TheDude50447]

Im going by what scientific testing has actually found out rather than what the manufacturer recommends. It wouldnt surprise me in the slightest if their recommendations are tailored in a way to kill the battery not too long after the warranty expires.

[@qilu2004]

Energy density for NMC needs to be discounted by 20%, and hence has no advantage there.

[@grahamkearnon6682]

The current for sale high end Chinese offerings now boast 800 km range but, Americans won't see that! LFP are the only game in town as the rest are old news for toyota & alike.

[@stephkent2736]

Follow manufacturer recommendations: brought to you by “lifetime” transmission fluids and 10K oil changes

[@johnroberts9922]

What are you talking about guy? My December 2023 Tesla Model Y was delivered with an LFP battery and there were no other options. Given that it is the best selling car in the world, the conclusions are obvious.

[@carkawalakhatulistiwa]

The oil industry uses cobalt in the process of making diesel fuel. 😂But they blame the electric car industry for child labor in Congo. 😂When electric car manufacturers move to LFP batteries.The oil industry still blames batteries for environmental damage. #unbelievable 😂

[@richardnwilson]

Roughly half of all new Teslas made in the United States use lfp batteries now.

[@ralstm1]

That doesn't sound right. Do you have a source that can confirm that? o My impression is that only a small fraction of US Tesla's have used LFP over the last decade. Thanks

[@car24dude]

I thought Tesla has the L.I.P. Lithium Ion phosphate. 😂😂

[@larryc1616]

EV batteries are moving to cheap and unlimited Sodium ion from catl and byd this year

[@kevinlin4895]

Doubtful due to much lower density than even LFP. Sodium's main advantage is cold weather but that's more niche

[@miraphycs7377]

u might as well use NiMH it is so low energy density

[@FabioCapela]

@@kevinlin4895 The "much lower density" is still more energy dense than the original Tesla Roadster, and like other batteries they are improving; by 2030 we will likely have Sodium batteries more energy dense than the NMC batteries found in new EVs today. Even with "only" the current energy density, for city-bound vehicles that spend the night in a garage with a charger it's more than enough. And Sodium batteries are even safer than LFP batteries to boot; I'm not sure you can even make one of those catch fire without the help of a flamethrower.

[@kevinlin4895]

@@FabioCapela I agree.. but consider the flack that LFP is taking in the US on energy density concerns, I have a hard time believing they're going to be receptive to a base chemistry that is even lower. Granted city commuter is fine (and Sodium Ion city commuters already exist in China), but US citizens are the ones that are reported in surveys to constantly saying they need at least 500 miles range to consider buying EV.

[@davidbeppler3032]

Sodium batteries are HEAVY. Great for low range heavy cars. Not so good for long range light cars.

[@MrDebranjandutta]

In India all mainstream EVs come with LFP packs

[@forever_momentss]

old mg has nmc

[@marlasota]

This video is a heap of bull crap. The only reason why manufacturers recommend charging LFP batteries to 100% is to trace the charging curve for SoC indication purposes. LFP charging curve is very flat making it difficult to estimate state of charge. BUT CHARGING LFP BATTERY TO 100% IS VERY DAMAGING.

[@colingaskell9571]

Battery s never last only as good as the guarantee know matter Negative equity in the end

[@mafazrahman1900]

Stephen Hawking after Epstein island

[@OliverTwisted4k]

Get these egg heads out of the equation and we can make it work. A $20,000 battery is bs they should cost $1000.

[@qilu2004]

LFP is cheaper, more durable, last longer, and safer. NMC has no future.