The Case for Fresh Pictures (of the Norse Gods)

It's time to stop using the same tired 19th- and 20th-century paintings and woodcuts of the Norse gods everywhere. There is a world of better options.
Jackson Crawford, Ph.D.: Sharing real expertise in Norse language and myth with people hungry to learn, free of both ivory tower elitism and the agendas of self-appointed gurus. Visit jacksonwcrawfo... (includes bio and linked list of all videos).
Jackson Crawford’s Patreon page: / norsebysw
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Latest FAQs: vimeo.com/3751... (updated Nov. 2019).
Jackson Crawford’s translation of Hávamál, with complete Old Norse text: www.hackettpub... or www.amazon.com...
Jackson Crawford’s translation of The Poetic Edda: www.hackettpub... or www.amazon.com...
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Jackson Crawford’s translation of The Saga of the Volsungs: www.hackettpub... or www.amazon.com...
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[@simongissler]

This is the closest we'll probably ever get to seeing the cowboy viking's inner berserker fury awaken on this channel

[@komyn27]

Have you seen the "Teaching and Learning without an Agenda" video? THAT is the closest we've seen, lmao.

[@Scareth]

I know right it's actually quite amusing 🤣 He's so humble all the time, nice to see that inner berserker coming out

[@franek_izerski]

You could almost call it a rant.

[@stoneguard]

😆

[@yl3766]

kevin p lmao how’s that related to the credibility just because he attends BLM???

[@johanrunfeldt7174]

This was the most soft-spoken rant I've ever seen or heard on YT.

[@CaraesNaur]

Now it's rather difficult to get to this Victorian-era art... everyone has to dig past the comic book movie stuff.

[@SimonSays288]

I fell in love with swedish artist Johan Egerkrans illustrations some years back. His book Norse Gods is full of wonderful representations.

[@BrianneSober]

You might also like Kay Nielsen.

[@stoneguard]

I need to check him out, thanks!

[@Tsotha]

his dinosaur illustrations are amazing too, they make bird-like feathered dinosaurs look ten times cooler than scaly lizard-like dinosaurs and show a wonderful sense of humour

[@lunawolfheart336]

Thank you for telling me about this artist I now need his books

[@partytor11]

Did he illustrate the Väsen RPG published by Fria Ligan? EDIT: Just wanted to add that as someone named Tor who grew up reading and watching Valhall whenever anyone mentions Tor I always see Peter Madsen's rendition of him in my mind. I sorta connected to Tor from Valhall, I guess

[@SaturdaySportsman]

Trouble with Googling pictures of Thor, all you get is the Avengers character.

[@johnubal2825]

Jolly good point!

[@thegoblonoid]

Put together a "Physical Description Document" of all the gods, to have for us artists. I would love to have that resource. Number one prio on painting norse gods is to get Jackson Crawford seal of approval!

[@Korica]

I think the trouble with that idea is, as Jackson has said ... there are almost no physical descriptions given. You can depict the Gods in almost any manner you want and it won't contradict the sources because there is no information to contradict. Thor being specifically described as having red hair is one of the few instances of such a detail being noted.

[@001Hatsune]

I agree 10000%!!!! Even if there are little to no descriptions, then perhaps lines of text that can be used as inspiration!

[@moralityisnotsubjective5]

My understanding is that both Thor and Loki are supposed to have red hair and Thor has a red beard as said in the video.

[@matildas3177]

even if it would be short, it'd be practical to have such a cheat-sheet to quickly double-check when sketching

[@vergil8833]

I despise that idea greatly. The idea of canonizing one specific look for gods that people orally worshipped in a vast radius is inherently false if you ask me. People who actually worshipped these gods in the times they were relevant would view them as looking different from town to town maybe even houshold to household. To then take much later christian descriptions of the gods to canonize is silly. While some things are important to the gods traits, like Odins missing eye and Tyrs missing hand, other things like their hair color or beard shape should not be viewed as having any canon. It will only cause poorly educated gate keepers to hound every design they do not like.

[@redbeard3946]

Thor having red hair was a pretty nice reassurance to have growing up as a ginge.

[@Mara999]

I tend to like depictions of Norse mythology that has some resemblance to 19th or early 20th-century Scandinavian fairy-tale art, where the nature looks distinctly Fennoscandian and the supernatural entities look like they belong in that environment. That's why my favourite artists for Norse myth and later folklore are people like Peter Madsen and Johan Egerkrans. :)

[@partytor11]

Peter Madsen's rendition of Norse Mythology has become so ingrained in my mind from when I was a kid that I don't think I'll ever be able to imagine the characters as anything other than the way they are in Valhall.

[@guseks8413]

I can only agree. When I think of Thor really it is heavily inspired by the way he is portrayed by Peter Madsen in Valhall. The illustrations by Johan Egerkrans in Nordiska gudar and Nordiska väsen is also really good.

[@timothydoughty8246]

Preach it, Doc!! We have needed new art for years!!! We know there are talented artists out there who want a platform.

[@hoonterofhoonters6588]

I promise, Doctor. When my technical skill catches up with my imagination, I'll produce some good art of the Norse deities. Them first, and other mythologies later.

[@lunawolfheart336]

I've made little wood burned idols out of dowls

[@porc1429]

Well have you made it? I'd love to see it

[@ritagi837]

I love this man❤️ Thank you for everything you do sir,I am addicted with your channel

[@hollish196]

1000 cheers for this post!! Support living artists! Use the most accurate information possible. Thank you for this.

[@MysticHeather]

I am in complete agreement with you 🙌🏻 I don’t think your presentations are lacking illustrations, the lectures and locations are more than enough! I also agree w you (as an artist myself) there are so many talented artists out there that are capable of producing imagery of these figures in a much better manner! Thanks for sharing your thoughts and feelings on all this!

[@RP-ve7bl]

There was a Viking revival in the Victorian era. So a lot of the art produced in those times reflects more their culture than the initial Scandinavian history and myths. So, a little off the beaten track from JC's area of focus or interest.

[@ingold1470]

Wasn't there a medieval revival in general in that era? It seems like that was the beginning of critical mass of people being interested in the medieval era as more than just a rhetorical punching bag for Whigs & Jacobins to use as a proxy for their political enemies.

[@magister343]

In defense of Thor being portrayed as blond, we should remember that the Norse did not have distinct words for red and yellow and would refer to blonds as redheads. His hair is as red as fine gold.

[@ironrex6979]

Based

[@hairyheathen9200]

Can't believe I only saw one other person suggest Sam Flegal. His work is incredible.

[@victorkreig6089]

You are not alone for sure, I haven often been quite frustrated by it when looking for references for designs I myself do or want for visualizations of stories I am reading at the time Always a pleasure Dr

[@joeyk3134]

Johan Egerkrans has very good depictions of the norse gods.

[@holdyerblobsaloft]

What if the æsir were a hockey team? Would Thor be the team captain or enforcer? Maybe Tyr would be the captain? Would Odin be the head coach or the team owner/CEO? Loki the PR/marketing guy? Baldr is obviously the fast skating, goal scoring star. Is Heimdall the goalie? How about the others?

[@awesomeatronik]

Tyr world be the GM/coach Odin would be captain Thor would be star player Loki would be on same line as Thor and Odin, I think they would take turns on playing center and left or right wings. Ullr and fray would be defence Heimdall would be goalie because he invented Nets.

[@ZeroGravityFuneral]

Why waste anyone’s time with such questions.

[@wecanseeu2]

It’s funny that when you first mentioned the Thor picture my mind went immediately to that ridiculous clean shaven young blond guy with a hammer, then you showed that same picture! I’m glad I’m not the only one who thinks that way.

[@an8790]

​@@danieldelaney1377It's by Mårten Winge, a Swedish artist. Although yes, it's a more of a German depiction. It's a fantastic oil painting, so on terms of art prowess there are no comparable works of art. The problem is the depiction itself, haha.

[@cartercraftwork5899]

I always enjoy your perspective! I agree about the art! Let’s see some new images!

[@GrayByrd]

as a somewhat new student to the information jackson has had at his disposal, and the information he's seen a thousand times, i have enjoyed the pictures, paintings and other media of vikings from a hundred years ago. i love seeing the odin picture he uses here. it's one of my favorite. but, i agree with connecting with modern artists who are more than likely better informed, and are good in their own right. supporting modern artists is almost always good. and a fresh injection of talent can only enhance what we are all in the process of learning.

[@stevengentry9396]

To each their own. I like some of those artworks.

[@RolfHartmann]

I have to admit I used that picture of Odin in the hood for a presentation in university, one I took to a couple of regional conferences. Though in that case I chose it because it was ambiguous and I was making a point about syncretism, and how that picture could almost be Gandalf from Tolkien, and about how creators almost inevitably, and sometimes purposefully, draw from existing traditions.

[@timomatic6226]

As an illustrator, i approve of this message greatly 👏😄

[@cameronwilliams8307]

I did a small series based on some Norse myths earlier in the year for an illustration assignment. I came across so many old paintings showing the exact same stories, so I tried to show my interpretations of stories I hadn’t seen drawn too often. It was very enjoyable. You can find a speed paint of one of them on my channel :)

[@genghisgalahad8465]

Almost sort of like the cloistered monks, often non-artists, who drew “exotic” animals they had never seen in their lives based off of hasty descriptions. I enjoy mythical and Marvel Thor and yet I’m curious and intrigued in how the textual Thor would actually look like!

[@cjlind6436]

Dr. Crawford, could you please turn up your mic? I always have to crank my volume way up when I watch your videos, and then blow up my ears when I switch to watching someone else. Thank you!

[@grindsaur]

I appreciate the calm and serenity of your mountain landscapes:)

[@christopherjohnson2171]

I've wanted to commission a painting/print for a while: From a high vantage point looking down into a Fjord, a longship heads towards the open water. Two Ravens in the foreground with a classic hammer/anvil looking thunderstorm off into the distance over the open water with some lightning traveling through it.

[@LooniJoose]

I'm always happy when Dr. Crawford shares his thoughts with us. Also, I happen to agree with this 100%, thank you.

[@MrHazz111]

Thank you sir, for taking the time to highlight us artists. For anyone looking for interesting depictions of Norse myth, I highly suggest Johan Egerkrans's beautiful work.

[@RevCuck]

meh, his Thor isn't big enough

[@ironrex6979]

@@RevCuckThor ain’t fat deal with it. Dagda is though but now I feel like he’s going to be hounded by dishonest larpers.

[@azurechief3151]

@@RevCuckhis Thor is phenomenal. What are you on about?

[@picklerick8785]

Just as bad as the 19th century Romantic art is the modern “art” that dresses the subjects in bad fantasy material culture that look like concept art from “Game of Thrones”, “The Last Kingdom” or “Vikings”.

[@Galdring]

I'd say that the latter is infinitely worse.

[@BrianneSober]

You mean to tell me people back then weren't covered in dirt and tattoos?

[@TulilaSalome]

I'm not sure it's 'infinitely worse', we are just so used to these 19th century depictions largely based on neoclassical views of classic Greek and Roman god's; they are quite bad. Just we are numbed to it. The weirdos in black leather and tattoos are equally bad but in a different way. Well ok somewhat worse... FFS they didn't dress in leather and most likely did not dye leather black at all. But not 'infinitely' worse.

[@philippedefague3835]

romantic art is awesome though. Modern struff is glayme

[@Galdring]

@@TulilaSalome For me, I think it's because they're in a style that mostly children enjoy. They make norse mythology look silly. Also that the shows inspiring them are so untrue to Norse mythology. The problem with the picture Crawford displayed is basically that Thor lacks a beard. And I figure the guy might have shaved every now and then. I usually have a beard, but sometimes I get rid of the thing :P

[@v.9964]

I absolutely love this channel, I learn soooooo much. It's easy to understand and I often get distracted from the beautiful landscape. You don't need the art. You're a wonderful teacher,but I get some people might actually need visuals. Yet, that's where the manuscripts and other words come in on the screen. I think your channel does a great job conveying information or mental images just by your words. Please keep up the good work in this channel I binge watch your stuff that's probably why I'm here. LOL!!!

[@Scareth]

Jackson you're making me motivated to learn how to draw so I can please you with some good art

[@beornenmannr3218]

Gör det

[@nouvellegamine]

I think Rackham's versions of the gods are pretty good. I also recommend a children's book called, "D'Aulaire's Book of Norse Myths" (originally published as, "D'Aulaire's Norse Gods & Giants".

[@d.rabbitwhite]

Part of the problem is that when one does try to do some as accurate as possible drawings, or animation, there is always a director, or someone with more power, telling everyone how they don't care if our images are more accurate, they want what people will identify with, and people think of vikings as what they have seen in media or old artist's depictions.

[@theanonymousmrgrape5911]

This is the kind of thing that happens when elements of culture are prevented from entering the public domain for 95 years after creation.

[@archaeodeath]

Academics are part of the problem here, since the visual medium is seen as ancillary at best. I see the snobbery regarding anything that comes out that challenges expectations, even when they are far more plausible or 'true' to what we know from the descriptions in the sources.

[@Galdring]

This is Scandinavia's cultural heritage. Scandinavians have the claim to it. That old, Scandinavian paintings created by Scandinavians are the ones illustrating Norse mythology is only fair. If new artwork is to be made it will easily become an American capitalist endeavor that caricatures and misrepresents Scandinavian heritage, as Marvel is already doing. That is an important perspective. I'm not really suggesting only Scandinavians should be allowed to touch Norse mythology, but it should also not be treated as a commodity to be exploited freely by the rest of the world. If foreigners are to appropriate Scandinavian heritage, it should at the very least be done with proper respect.

[@loke1555]

Godt sagt

[@Galdring]

@@theyoungcavalier You're right in the case of ancient Germans, although there is a reason why it is in Scandinavia we find all these artifacts, and it is where the stories take place. Anglo Saxons have a much weaker claim, they simply imported the culture (you might as well say that they have a claim to the Roman pantheon, and through that to Greek mythology), and Americans in general certainly don't have a claim just because a small percentage of them has Scandinavian ancestors.

[@pattheplanter]

@@Galdring So, what is the difference between an Anglo Saxon or Jute or Danish colonist of Britain and a Scandinavian/Gaelic colonist of Iceland? Or are you saying that Icelanders don't get to have a claim either?

[@grizzly_glen]

@@Galdring Anglo Saxons worshiped Woden and Thunor before they invaded the British Isles. It was only after St. Augustine that the Anglo Saxons converted form the old gods to Christianly. They have at least as much right to the cultural heritage as ancient German's do. Anglo Saxons are after all originally from Northern Germany and Southern Denmark

[@Galdring]

​@@pattheplanter The difference is what amount of the modern population is descended from the people who developed and practised this culture, and where the stories making up the core of this mythology take place. Norse mythology is strongly tied to a people and an area. Of course its cultural elements have been exported, and of course elements of other cultures have been imported. That doesn't mean that no culture can be tied to a people and an area. You could relativize anything in the manner you try to do. That I dabble in math doesn't give me a claim on Calculus.

[@Dadutta]

thoughts on viktor rydberg and his interpretation of nordic/germanic myth?

[@VredesStall]

I don't mind those older, more traditional illustrations of Norse deities that we are all familiar with. Yes, they might be a bit tired and cliché... but at least the artist who made them used a fair amount of common sense when coming up with them. My personal pet peeve (if not a major psychotic hatred & disgust) are modern shows like that one on the History Channel that depict Vikings wearing some of the most god awful haircuts and the most ridiculous looking hairstyles that I have ever seen. Those actors look a lot less like actual Vikings and a lot more like those "children of death" you see at the mall who just walked out of Hot Topic.

[@azurechief3151]

It’s really saddening when you put it that way.

[@coolfish420]

I wonder if you've seen the work of Kazuma Kaneko! He's a Japanese artist who's known for his depictions of mythological figures in a long running video game series. He's drawn (and reimagined) several Norse gods over the decades. Odin and Loki in particular have intriguing representations. I'm not sure that they would be suitable to use in a presentation, but they are certainly different!

[@hoonterofhoonters6588]

Its worth noting that the technological limitations of the older games limited what he could design. It's why some of the simpler designs caught on. He had to draw with the limits of the consoles. I always loved Odin's depiction in Soulhackers. It's a shame that it wasn't used in later games, but it's one of the more complex illustrations. SMT is a big part of the reason why I got an interest in mythology. The modern reinterpretations got me interested in what the characters meant.

[@raedenjay]

Check out the Thor art from the Age of Mythology strategy game. It’s my favourite representation

[@ironrex6979]

Looks cool! Thanks for sharing. Never saw it before.

[@sebastianklasson6125]

I think it is interesting how you as an educator in this subject considers the 19th century depictions of the Asar dull and inaccurate. I’m of course of the same opinion, a lot of the 19th century art is historically inaccurate. Many of the national romanticism painters created imaginary moments of the passed with the intention to glorify their nations history. However, the painting of Tor, by Winge is the picture I grew up with. As a kid, every time thunder rolled in, that was the Tor I imagined in the sky, riding his wagon in rage, protecting us from trolls. Even tough very few people (if any) have believed in or knew about the Asar since Christianity “won”, traces of them have been kept in Scandinavian folklore trough stories and names of places. So even if the pictures of the 19th century are inaccurate compared to the medieval sources, they are still a part of a continuous folklore. A reality of legacy in Scandinavian culture where the image of Tor definitely have changed with time. The Bronze Age Northern Europeans worshiped a potential predecessor of Tor that must have been imagined different from the migration period Tor, which had been imagined different from the Viking age Tor. Swedes born in the early 20th century up until the Marvel movies probably have Winge’s Tor in mind when thinking about the god of thunder. So even if you think they are boring and agreeable inaccurate compared to the few written sources we have on the Asar, they still have a role to play in the continuous folklore in Scandinavian.

[@LatinEverywhere]

The same is true for a lot of works about ancient Rome and Greece! I teach Latin and Greek and a lot schoolbooks use these public domain paintings. I totally agree with you: one should use artefacts of the time or create new pictures. Our idea of how the past might have looked is more true than that of a couple of centuries ago!

[@mirkwoodwand]

Lots of people draw new art but I think widely people think older things are more legitimate. Especially within Paganism, I feel like people assume that that which is old is more spiritually valid and it's like the only thing they feel they have to "argue" against Christianity with -- in that it's "older". So yeah, there are brand new depictions happening now. But it's Marvel and Assassins Creed and stuff like that, so people don't consider that to be legitimate.

[@mirkwoodwand]

And yet, from what we can gather, the stories we have are one version of those stories written down by people who were not connected to that culture or history. What we have as far as "canon" is not exactly "pure" in it's source. While we can date the Old Norse written in the Poetic Edda, that still doesn't necessarily mean that those stories didn't vary from time to time or region to region. There really IS no singular canon or "correct" version of the story. In fact, some of the oral stories could differ widely from what we know as the "canon". They are not actual events anyone has witnessed, so they can absolutely be conveyed differently. These were stories for entertainment, not religious documents, and they are the Marvel of their days. We just give them more gravitas because it sounds older and therefore more important. While I can understand why historians might be more sticklers for modern depictions to exactly reflect the canon, I do not see why Pagans are so insistent on sticking to a singular interpretation of the appearance of a god for an audience that isn't us. If you believe the gods to not be ancient but alive, then Marvel and Assassin's Creed and God of War and many others are perhaps new ways for the gods to teach us lessons in the same ways the stories from the Eddas entertained as well as taught. I get in general what you're saying and it's easy when you're faced with people who simply don't take the time to learn or care about the history to be overly focused on what is and isn't canon, but I think we also need to remember that there is no real "actual historical" version of these stories as they were an oral tradition. Technically one could consider the writing down of these stories as a bastardisation in and of itself. We have one version written down years afterwards and while I do think people should care about history, that doesn't make the Poetic or Prose Eddas sacrosanct.

[@ironrex6979]

@@mirkwoodwandno just no there’s nothing of value in garbage like GoW, AssCreed and the god awful MCU. Man have Neo pagans really de evolved into such a sad group? Larping with media that is the antithesis. I am grateful I was never that ignorant.

[@mirkwoodwand]

@@ironrex6979 ok.

[@ironrex6979]

@@mirkwoodwand look I apologize if I was too rude with my reply. It’s just those are powerful forces for better or for worse. They should not be trivialized. Specially in the way those forms of media trivializes them. Yes the past is lost we don’t have the context but what has survived, been passed down to us, was at least done with an honest heart. Now specially with GoW, MCU, and AssCreed it’s just hatred. Edit: why did you delete my last reply? Did the truth sting. You say you won’t debate so you silence. Thank you for proving me right. I’ll repeat it again stop living a lie. Live for more than only yourself. Stop being a LARPER. Respect my culture and stop desecrating it. Instead of running away from the truth you are better off deleting all the gnstic nonsensical lies you wrote.

[@mirkwoodwand]

@@ironrex6979 I have like zero interest in debating with a rando about my religion on a comment I made 2 years ago. I've got better uses for my time and you might want to find a better use for yours.

[@tylerreed610]

What's your opinion on God of War's interpretation of Thor?

[@Oops-All-Ghosts]

I know a few people really didn't like the new God of War's depiction of Thor, but I thought it was really neat. I don't remember him ever really being described as particularly attractive or slender in the myths; he's a big, older man who spends most of his time travelling around, fighting, and drinking. Many of the Romantic paintings of him as a beautiful boy feel very strange. (For what it's worth I do worry that they made him large because they were aiming to shock and disgust people, rather than because they were going for a fresh impression of him or a more 'authentic' take, but it's difficult to judge that kind of intent just from looking.)

[@MrBarborosa]

He's described as handsome

[@Oops-All-Ghosts]

@@MrBarborosa Where?

[@ironrex6979]

Difficult to judge? that game was taking a massive dump on the Norse pantheon. I don’t believe in burning games but I’d do an exception with the new GoW duology. Oh well hopefully they move on to Egypt. Egyptians won’t tolerate that bs.

[@Oops-All-Ghosts]

​@@ironrex6979 Leaving whatever my personal opinions on it are aside, this comment was posted before Ragnarok came out. Get a hobby that doesn't involve expressing performative outrage at years-old comments, please.

[@ironrex6979]

@@Oops-All-Ghosts lmao crybaby. It was blatant but I digress. It is better for people to realize that it was garbage sooner than never.

[@gwoolman]

Once again I thank you for your work and your videos. I have watched so many of these. I have all your books, I keep recommending your works to others.

[@oneparticularlysmartape]

Lmao! That ( 1:20 ) is the exact picture on the cover of the first Poetic/Prose Edda book I ever bought.

[@giacomomallegni4081]

I would like so much to see YOU drawing some arts about the norse mithology, i'm a big fan of it but i can't really draw, i would like to cultivate this passion of mine and mix it with the norse mithology one and start to share some accurate works on the internet... Actually i think that this ignorance about those themes is perpetrated by the movies... Especially from the Marvel ones... Which rapresents Thor and most of the character in a different way from the mithology, and the most ignorant people think that is just the accurate rapresentation of the character. I'm so glad i found this channel. Keep up your good work!

[@jordanbemmels9752]

100%! Another issue for those of us who are Heathen or Heathen-adjacent is that those romantic-era depictions are often dreadful spiritual representations. They do not portray much of the personality, complexity, humour, nuance, or essential character of those they are supposed to represent from the myth in any way that squares with them as spiritual beings. Modern pop-fantasy is just as guilty, with its clown-makeup, Maori-like tattoos, and perpetual grimacing. There are some modern amazing artists, the best are those who focus on portraying something meaningful, rather than reproducing a stereotyped one-dimensional stock character.

[@dylantennant6594]

My problem is this. I’m sick of it just being the main three gods (Thor, Loki and Odin) that get artistic representation (along with Freyja but she always draws more motifs from Aphrodite then Freyja). What about Tyr, he’s a war god who is missing a hand and uses a spear, this should be easy to make cool. Same with Idun, Freyr, Hel, and Njord, do something with these!

[@louismarlow53]

Tyr is my personal favourite. I do a lot of Norse-inspired art and he is the one god I’ve drawn the most.

[@mystrangebones]

YES

[@mattiasthornkvist7141]

Couldn´t agree more. As an example of good ways to expand the world of ideas is by picture AI. I saw someone doing Zeus illustrations through Midjourney and they were inspiring.

[@fablesociety4563]

So let's take it a step past your rant. (Though, that's the calmest and most thoughtful rant I may have ever heard.) Why don't we as a group commission artists to make copyright free art for all these places to use that better represent these people/places/whatever? I think it would be cool to pitch in and help make all the free resources people have easy access to better by including better/more accurate art. I've got my own under-funded creative projects (ugh... Don't forget to like comment and subscribe to Fable Society - the interactive cartoon made YOU, the community) but I'm sure I'm not the only one that would happily kick in a few bucks to help fund an endeavor like this.

[@buff34x]

The most time consuming part of my Old Norse myth presentation I did for a comparative world religions class was finding pictures that were at least half way accurate to the surviving descriptions.

[@MrJakedog104]

I hate trying to find decent images of the gods that aren't marvel or 19th century. It's such a pain

[@kerrimccabe3883]

I am an artist and I've been wanting to do a series of the Norse gods. I get soooooooo sick of the depictions of Freyja! I know she's really gotten laden with the "Goddess of Love and Beauty" but UGH! It's cold in Scandinavia! Can she not get some clothes? But I get intimidated by the idea of trying to research trying to get the clothes and costumes right.

[@mormacil]

Sex goddesses regardless of temperature are often depicted naked in ancient artworks. They're not remotely bothered by mortal limits like cold. I get oversexualization can get tiring but for Freya it fits, Freyr too. So many ancient artworks depicts his proud member. it the nudity is per domain and not the sex of the god I don't see an issue.

[@kerrimccabe3883]

@@mormacil I don't think bikini armor has ever been a thing.

[@mormacil]

@@kerrimccabe3883 Don't think I've ever seen her in those. Indeed not a thing in Scandinavia.

[@ex_cathedra4237]

I have a framed copy of John Bauer's illustration of Tyr putting his hand in Fenrir's mouth. I've always been fascinated by the story because it seemed like a noble sacrifice considering that the Aesir were aware of how deadly he would become when Ragnarok takes place. That, and I just like its aesthetic.

[@AncientSpiritMusicFrom]

interesting question. and coincidentally, I also try to use more photos of mountains in what I want to represent artistically.

[@danberan02]

Jackson Crawford is just such a gigachad

[@vergil8833]

I don't really subscribe to the idea of a canon look to these gods other than narratively important things like Odin should always miss one eye, but if he had blond or brown hair when he was young doesn't matter, it could be either or as it surely was depending on what region you were in. People in one village could image Thor looking one way while in the next village they'd imagine someone vastly different in both age and hair color. So I don't dislike the old painting because Thor lacks a red beard, but I agree that images like those get way more screentime than others.

[@lisapayne9514]

I'm sure Thor didn't have a regional variant look. He was always noted to have red hair and a red beard according to the ancient texts and was indicated to be a man of a large appearance because of how much he ate and drank. Therefore there wouldn't be much of a reason to believe he looked different.

[@vergil8833]

@@lisapayne9514 Not at all. The oldest descriptions mention his beard as the same color as gold. In old norse they referred to gold as rauðr which would later just mean red, but at the time it represented the color of gold which all his hair was ever compared to in the oldest sources. This is likely what made later authors to describe his hair as red, they just read "rauðr" and assumed the context had stayed the same for 400 years. These tects also call him a literal demon btw. So it is not correct at all, it was written by christians who did not worship or understand hte previously pagan culture. They were all just talking about a snapshot in time which they deemed the canon. It is the same with all written texts about mythologies. The written texts about the Roman pantheon is just one snap shot in time of what those gods were like at that moment, 200 years later it would not be the same but we'll never know because that is not the snapshot we have. And even then we see variety in contemporary sources from the same periods, showing how two people under the same faith did not see the same gods as exactly the same. So when it is like that for the very well connected Roman Empire and Greek states, it would only be more extreme in the disconnected borderline nomadic germanic tribes of the north. And assuming that everyone thought of Thor as fat just because he is said to have a big appetite in the sagas is silly. Not only is Thor not fat on any of the rune stones or other stone or wood carvings or idols of him, but he is also a god who drinks the ocean with a metaphysical purpose. To think people would see him as fat unfounded. Not only because of the pagan depictions I just mentioned, but also since fatness is not associated with a warrior in norse culture, it is seen as a southern foreign lazy "bleikr" concept. Most of the people who believed in Thor would enver see a fat person in their lives. The idols don't show hima s fat, the later tapestry does not show him as fat, the red hair comes from a misunderstanding regarding the old norse description of gold. Most people who actually believed in Thor would therefpre likely believe in Thor as a non-fat golden haired warrior just like the artwork which is complained about in this video represents. But many would also never have heard of such a description because no priests ran around telling them what Thor look is canon, so Thor looked many ways to many people, but theres no evidence to sugegst he was fat.

[@porc1429]

@@vergil8833 When did Thor's hair ever compared to gold? It's one year late but I want to know

[@vergil8833]

@@porc1429 I can't remember what exact piece of writing it is, but his hair is called "red as gold" because the vikings referred to gold as red. Thats likely where the idea that he has red hair specifically comes from later on, people get hung up on the "red" while ignoring the "as gold" part. Gold is not red like the color red. Unpolished gold has kind of a golden brown color, and dark blonde hair happens to be the most common Scandinavian hair color, so most probably viewed him like that. Remember that these writings are only like screenshots in time. Over the hundreds of years it changed many times all the time, and in every village it was uniquely different, so saying that any hair color is more "canon" than another is silly. Theres no point in getting hung up on such details. As long as he looks like the archetypical scandinavian warrior ideal it's probably right.

[@wendynordstrom3487]

Heck yeah! Forget those lame Victorians who chose to do nothing but fantasy and support these talented and much more invested artists. Thank you, Dr. Crawford!

[@Lurklen]

Eh, I like some of them (the Odin one has always been inspiring to me), but I also don't look at them multiple times a day every day lol. But you are bang on, there are so many incredible artists today, and many are very affordable, and will draw what you want if you give them guidelines and sources you want to pull from. They can focus on the aspects most in line with whatever you are presenting, be it historical authenticity, or a desire to evoke the real mystery at the heart of the figures you're depicting. And getting some new images will make any presentation pop. Another issue with using the same art that everyone else uses, is that it narrows the perception of these figures into the archetypes that older (often less informed) artists have promulgated and they stop being examples of a possible interpretation of a figure, and start being the definition. The standard for Thor becomes a youthful blonde man, Loki always wears horns and looks small and sleight, but even more specific images become the image people see in their head when they think of these figures, and this limitation of the lexicon of imagery limits ideas. At times it can make aspects of the character seem silly or more strange than they would if the character's popularized image was more cohesive and thematically or historically accurate. I like some, many, of those old images, because of what they evoke in my mind. But new images should be accompanying the new ideas and understanding that people are presenting as we learn more about these figures who stand so tall in the imagination, and yet are in many cases still so obscure. Many of these images are going to be someone's defining image of these figures, and while it's nice for us to all have a unified image in our mind, if we're both thinking of something that's really a poor representation of the figure in question, we're just sharing bad ideas.

[@grayman7208]

then what you need to do is commission someone to make new ones ... it could probably be paid out of university funds.

[@douglasmorton6121]

Thank you Sir! I fully agree!

[@johnsouth3912]

American educational culture must change!

[@VanaheimrUllr]

Thorr on Altuna runestone is the only real depiction of Thorr.. 🤣🤣 Its actually so good I want it as my first tattoo, i fu()"¤ love it.

[@goneforaburton]

This seems a bit niche. Art is notoriously subjective; some people love this and some people hate that. But none of the depictions (even those on Gotland picture stones) are “real”. Yes, more rather than fewer interpretations are not a bad thing, but let’s not kid ourselves that just because something is “different” it’s somehow “better”.

[@oivinf]

Could you point us to the most detailed textual descriptions of the figures (Tor, Odin, Freya, Loke, etc.) so that we could, in theory, inform an artist as we were to commission more accurate artworks?

[@ErinWi]

In addition to them being public domain and free, the recent kefluffle about some video game's representation of Thor (muscled, portly, and grizzled rather than some bodybuilder's personal ideal of strength and masculinity) is a good example of why these boring old images stay around. Most of the time, the people emotionally invested in these figures don't want something new or different. They want the image that best serves their own comfort, and if it deviates in some way then it must be destroyed.

[@ironrex6979]

More like that games whole intent was to destroy anything Norse culture. I’m glad people are realizing how bad it was. Specially now with it being rereleased on steam.

[@EldhjaertaZ]

I'd absolutely love to see a set of the Norse gods by Alvaro Tapia

[@enterpraise888]

I'd say that all of artists who work on Trudvang could make beautiful depiction of Norse mythology as it is.

[@Lynrowen]

Not sure if you've made a video, or post on a social media page, but i'd love to see your opinion/reaction on the God of War Thor design.

[@simongissler]

He was invited to guest in a couple videos on another channel about this! I forget which, but KZbin search "Jackson Crawford God of War" and it should come up

[@Lynrowen]

@@simongissler Very interesting. Thank you for the heads up! :)

[@xCorvus7x]

While new imaginations are fine and maybe due, in some sense, I wouldn't underestimate the ideological motivations of more modern artists.

[@CelestialForceDigital-ud6sq]

I feel that unless the dynamic exists where someone is able to commune with the Gods and is a visionary who has the ability to accurately portray through art what the Gods have shown what they look like (or the aspects of themselves they choose to show the person in question) that one will never know any sort of accurate aesthetic, then all depictions are just assumptions and mythical concepts.

[@faramund9865]

Next time I talk about Thur I’ll just show a photo of a lightning storm.

[@seadawg93]

Hallelujah! There are some awesome artists all over the interwebs!

[@diegofiora]

Great video! Have been thinking about this for some time now

[@eleks12]

Well im sure 21st century meme pictures of Thor starring Giga Chad is not the solution.

[@bardmadsen6956]

Guess my book is just awful cause most of the images are before December 31st 1922. So, what is your take on the Mjolnir?

[@willlowsage9603]

The way I *CRAVE* depictions of the Norse gods in Greco-Roman style statues

[@jayglenn837]

That first picture of Odin IS what I always think of. I would love to see more unique art of the Norse pantheon, but part of the appeal of these older artpieces for me is they evoke that ancient-y, mystery-feeling of Norse mythology. Now having said that, I do have a unique & modern picture of an Old Man Winter/Odin archetype on my wall, & I've collected a fair bit of modern Hugin & Munin (or really, 2-crow-archetype) artwork.

[@cs3222]

Argued this with a classical academic who agreed with me that 19th century and current depictions bestow a fairytale feel to mythology that for many is deeply cultural and/or spiritual. Under representation of righteous pagans if you ask me. but, how do you feel about the use of Runes and norse culture/mythology in Heavy Metal culture??? Amon amarth and others do bring the old symbols around, odins horse and such. Good post! upon reflection I think religious figures/deities so suffer a lot of makeovers! look at depictions of christian figures over the ages!!! imagine if the Byzantines saw an illustrated bible today!!

[@HeiligerGrimmnir]

Sam Flegal. Hit him up.

[@GaryDunion]

It sounds like it could be a very valuable contribution for an institution that is in a position to do so - perhaps a university, a museum or a Scandinavian government - to commission a variety of new art of the Norse gods, and make that available to all via a Creative Commons license or public domain dedication. p.s. Did I register that I'd seen that Gandalfish picture of Odin before, but not remember that it was Odin and instead briefly believe it was Walt Whitman before realising that would make no sense at all? Whether I did or not the important thing is none of you can prove it.

[@fimbulsummer]

Alright, alright I’ll do it.

[@ale8014]

Mårten Eskil Winge's painting is freakin awesome... i mean, people may not like how Thor is depicted, but you can't deny that the whole scene is totally badass, you can almost feel the raw power in Thor's stance as he unleashes all of his might! ⚡

[@whitaker_media]

I'm running into this problem too because I'm trying to find some authentic art to work from with regard to planning out some tattoos for myself featuring illustrations of Thor and other figures. Obviously I'm not gonna settle for a depiction of a Marvel actor or anything like that. Any further resource suggestions for finding true to culture drawings, or other likenesses for this purpose?

[@marksgraybeal]

' i see, saw, sung.'

[@jeffreyadamo]

I really want to see more accurate depictions of Norse mythology

[@beepboop204]

accurate.... mythology.... ????

[@thumphreybrogart4108]

@@beepboop204 what are you failing to understand?

[@beepboop204]

@@thumphreybrogart4108 how do you accurately depict fictional entities, particularly when the source material is so bare bones? tell me, since you are so smart, how do you accurately depict Thors height, his bodymass, when the source material is vague or contradicts itself, what do you do them? you internet experts are a hoot

[@beepboop204]

@@thumphreybrogart4108 please provide me your source material that completely and accurately guides your "accurate" depictions of Forseti, Hel, or Delling, just as a start. you can jump right to Thor and Odin if you need to cheat

[@sclair2854]

That'll be pretty hard given the lack of descriptions and wide array of differences between stories.

[@MDJ5]

i always thought it would be cool to see mjolnir depicted as a big, brutal 2-handed war hammer. i mean, who brings a smithing sized hammer to a sword fight?

[@scottyoung4590]

That's how it was depicted in the old Hercules series

[@porc1429]

A war hammer that's too short to be handled by two hands

[@thhseeking]

Horned helmets for the Norse, winged helmets for Gauls :P I was looking up Ambiorix earlier today, and saw a picture of his statue in Tongeren. Yeah... And Arminius ...

[@BlackMetalVikingCustoms]

Couldn’t agree more, the Christianized depictions, and fantastical renderings never compare to how my own imagination presents the gods to me. Usually my brain presents Odin as a shadowy figure of pure wisdom and knowledge, with little to know features. More often than not, he just sends his ravens to me. Seriously though, two ravens follow me around at work almost everyday, and the days they don’t follow me, I see them at least once. It’s hard not to feel his presence when something like that happens.

[@mountaindewgaming2351]

Think that might be schizophrenia or psychosis my guy

[@JonsuJamma]

I will start painting accurate depictions the gods and send them to you

[@warrenvonschmidt3574]

I think the Rosen Óðin's prominence is somewhat deserved (though it definitely is overused), but I absolutely cannot stand that painting of Thór. I would be the most interested to see art that disregards the Neoclassical ideal entirely and instead follow the more stylized, curving forms of genuine old Germanic art, as seen on the picture-stones, Funen bracteate, &c. The Rällinge Freyr especially fascinates me.

[@gerardvila4685]

Personally, based on the stories I imagine Thor a bit like Obelix the Gaul but with different facial hair.

[@nickvize8310]

What do you think of the God of War depiction of Thor? Their depiction has been sparing a lot of comments since they revealed an image of him in the game.

[@olofbjorkstrom]

Look at old statues of similar gods Jupiter, Taranus and Heracles and you get an idea of viking age imagine of Thor as well. Mårten probably did that and his painting actually make sense.