The Census & the Birth of Christ with Dr. Fred Baltz - Part 1

[@eliseoandrade8126]

I had doubts about the census, because of the general information about it shared and published by schoolars. Thanks to this video, now I am satisfied with my questions being answered. Thank you! Watching this from Mexico.

[@dev--null]

Can't wait for part two! Excellent talk!

[@LuCatPsalm37]

Fantastic! Excellent work again! Looking forward to part two on patterns+

[@danielgilbert9684]

Outstanding exposition!

[@VoiceTotheEndsOfTheEarth]

Excellent presentation. To confirm the 3 BC date for the birth of Jesus Christ, when the Lord told the disciples that the magnificent temple they so admired would be destroyed, with not one stone left upon another, then referring to Himself, as raising the temple of His body (after making the atoning sacrifice) in 3 days they exclaimed in John 2:20: "It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will you raise it up in three days?" Herod began construction on the temple in 19 BC, so the disciples must've made this statement in 27 AD. This was at the beginning of Christ's ministry. Luke 3:23 states that Jesus began his ministry when he was "about thirty years old".

[@floydfanboy2948]

Great stuff 😊

[@jameswelsh3433]

keep up the good work

[@goatkidmom]

Fascinating. 👍

[@ji8044]

For anyone who wants to read a non-scholarly but still pretty good biography of Herod you can try "Herod King of the Jews and Friend of the Romans". It's by Peter Richardson of the University of Toronto and has been sitting on my bookshelf for about 20 years now. There is only a limited amount of original source material available about him, but the author labels what is factual and what is speculation.

[@chiefmagi8063]

Birth of Christ: Wednesday September 11 3BCE.

[@pikacarr6049]

Very good , my only complaint is the background music is to load it’s distracting for a study.

[@carolrosecarlson5585]

I have issues with the star...inspired writer has said that what was seen as a "star" was the angels coming to announce Christ's birth.

[@ThomasDowdall-mh1es]

I agree herald died 4 bc as the tribulation started with cornus in November-December 2019 .Amazingly the latin word for Bow in English is cornus. 7 years later brings you to 2026-2027 so in that time of the tribulation prices have to start getting more expensive and in the middle the people in Judea have to head to the hills and Amazingly they did .luke 21:20 kjv.Amos chapter 1 verse 5-8 kjv happening now. Isaiah 17:1kjv looks like soon sadly.God bless Amos 5:18 kjv .

[@ThomasDowdall-mh1es]

Isaiah 13:6-8kjv God bless

[@joeycramblitt3005]

Nice work gentlemen! Under your analysis, could Jesus have been born in September of 3 BC?

[@PatternsOfEvidence]

Hello @joeycramblitt3005! This is possible within timeframe being discussed here. In fact, when taking into account some of the astronomical conjunctions that have been theorized as components of the Star of Bethlehem, there are intriguing celestial events that occurred in September of 3 BC, specifically in the range of the 11th/12th. Some have linked these to Jesus' birth, others to Jesus' conception. Dr. Baltz discusses these possibilities and others in his book, 'When the Bible Meets the Sky,' which a lot of the content in this episode is derived from. There are various theories on what specific historical events relate to the celestial events of this period. Dr. Baltz can correct us if we're wrong on this but it is our understanding that he believes the celestial event on June 17th of 2 BC (Jupiter and Venus coming into extremely close conjunction) marked Jesus' birth. However, in saying all of this, September of 3 BC is certainly within the realm of possibilities for Jesus' birth and interestingly may have coincided with Rosh ha-Shana / the Feast of Trumpets that year.

[@sheriedwards362]

December 7th at 20 minutes? What happened on December the 7th or did you misspeak and mean October the 7th?

[@robinstevens7651]

Hmm not mentioned in the 20th minute.. Have to find it..

[@ringoftruthmedia8548]

Pearl Harbor.

[@ThomasDowdall-mh1es]

Are you sure the star wasn't the comet the Chinese seen in 5 bc

[@oenthusiast]

It's very unlikely the star was a comet, since a comet was regarded as a BAD omen. The magi would not have made the interpretation they did, and traveled as they did, for a comet.

[@robinstevens7651]

God does not do things like that. Just check the exodus story.

[@ThomasDowdall-mh1es]

@robinstevens7651 I checked out the whole thing many times.God bless and God help us all. The Latin word for bow in English Google and scroll down to DictZone. God bless

[@grcleve7053]

The apple proof is not proof. This man thinks that people did not know anything until recent history. They knew how to preserve foodstuffs. It could have been dried, for Pete's sake. Joseph had people preserving foodstuffs for years. Noah and his family + animals were on the Ark for a year. Smh

[@markjeffries7150]

I have spent over 30 years studying the Gospels and the chronology of the Roman Emperors. First of all, the timeframe is incorrect. Proper research using antidading places Jesus' birth in 10 BCE during Agustus' Silver Anniversary. What Luke is referring to is the registration for the oath of loyalty that was taken for the Silver Anniversary. Everybody focuses on Cyrenius' rule but forgets about what was going on with Augustus and the reason why he ordered a registration in the first place.

[@ji8044]

Utter nonsense, there was no loyalty oath taking in Judea which would have required a common laborer to go to Bethlehem. You wasted 30 years apparently.

[@markjeffries7150]

Obviously, you don't know your history as well as you think you do. The oath of allegiance sworn during Caesar Augustus' silver anniversary-celebrating 25 years of his rule-was a monumental demonstration of loyalty to Augustus and his authority. This event marked the height of his political and cultural influence in Rome. In this oath, citizens, soldiers, and officials across the Roman Empire pledged loyalty to the Roman state and to Augustus himself. This marked a significant shift, as it formalized and centralized the personal loyalty of the Roman people to the emperor rather than the traditional republican institutions of the Roman Republic. The occasion, coinciding with Augustus being granted the honorary title of "Pater Patriae" (Father of the Fatherland), was part of the broader propaganda of the Augustan regime. It symbolized his role as the unifying figure of the empire, embodying stability, prosperity, and Roman values. By swearing the oath, citizens acknowledged Augustus as the source of peace (Pax Romana) and the guarantor of Rome's future. In essence, this oath solidified Augustus' transformation of Roman governance, emphasizing the emperor as the central figure of allegiance and marking a shift from a republic to a system of imperial rule. The primary sources for the oath of allegiance to Augustus include Augustus' Res Gestae, the works of Cassius Dio, Tacitus, Suetonius, Josephus, and epigraphic evidence from the provinces. These sources illustrate how Augustus institutionalized personal loyalty to him, particularly during significant moments like his silver jubilee, and tied this loyalty to his broader empire-wide unity and stability program.

[@ji8044]

@@markjeffries7150 "This event marked the height of his political and cultural influence in Rome. In this oath, citizens, soldiers, and officials across the Roman Empire pledged loyalty to the Roman state and to Augustus himself." At the time of the reign of Augustus, the population of Rome alone was roughly one million people. Subtract up to 40% as slaves and you still have a free population of at least 600,000K who you are suggesting has to be found and take an individual oath. Remember, that is Rome ALONE. The loyalty oaths were symbolic one person or a group of leaders standing for the population of a city as in the Paphlagonian Oath Stele.

[@ji8044]

@@markjeffries7150 "By swearing the oath, citizens acknowledged Augustus as the source of peace (Pax Romana) and the guarantor of Rome's future." You just shot your own argument all to hell since almost no one in Judea was a Roman citizen, especially not Joseph and Mary. Everybody loves to play amateur historian until they meet an actual historian . . . like me.

[@ji8044]

@@markjeffries7150 Josephus took a loyalty oath to the Emperor AFTER he changed sides, not while he was a Judean rebel.

[@Michael-pn5lp]

*Pagans would only have a point if the December 25th Roman "birthday of the invincible Sun" was instituted before the birth of Christ - instead of AD 274 !* So who is copying who ? Christ was born in 4 B.C. before going down into Egypt. Herod died soon after the 29th December 1 B.C. Judean lunar eclipse. Christ was then “called out of Egypt” in 1 A.D. when He was FOUR years old - on the 29th Jubilee from the first Exodus Jubilee of 1450 B.C. ( "three days travel into the wilderness to sacrifice", then the FOURTH day baptism through the "tongue of the Egyptian sea" that swallowed up Pharaoh and his army ! Three days in the belly of the earth, then the FOURTH day resurrection ! Three days creation, then "light upon the earth" on the FOURTH day of Genesis ! ) The northern winter solstice is either on the 21st or 22nd December, but Christmas Day is three days later ! On the Dead Sea Scroll's Biblical calendar, the Day of Atonement on our 28th September, is the most solemn, most holy day of the Biblical calendar - undoubtedly the day on which Jesus Christ, Yahshua our Messiah, was born ! Despite His birth, Joseph and Mary would have kept the Day of Atonement accordingly, and may even have wondered about the importance of the circumstances. Little did they all suspect then as they looked down on the manger, that that Child of God - the picture of innocence, pure as the driven snow, white as wool - would thirty three years later afflict their souls with His brutal, bloody Passover crucifixion: Born to die for our crimson sins ! Is that why this is such a Solemn Day ? We can eat but we cannot cook/work on the weekly Sabbath. Why is the Day of Atonement a High Day Sabbath but is also without any cooking like the weekly Sabbath ? It is because we have to fast on this day and so afflict our souls (see Leviticus 23:23-32). Why ? The second half of the year almost mirrors the first half of the year. It is interesting to note that the 28th September Day of Atonement on the tenth day of the seventh Biblical month before the Feast of Tabernacles, corresponds to the same day that the Passover lamb is separated on the 30th March and the tenth day of the first Biblical month before the Feast of Unleavened Bread ! That is why we must afflict our souls by fasting on the Day of Atonement: It is now actually in recognition of the atoning sacrifice that Christ determined to give us, when “six days before the Passover” He arrived in Bethany on the 9th Abib (see John 12:1-15). There “where Lazarus was” Christ had supper after sunset starting the 10th Abib. On a lowly donkey the next day, still the 10th Abib, thousands with palm fronds hailed Christ as “Hosanna” of Israel [Greek hoshia-na, of Hebrew nâ‛ yâsha‛, naw yaw-shah′ = Oh save ( savior )]. “Yahshua” finally entered Jerusalem, walked into the Temple and looked all around, before leaving at sunset (“eventide/even” between two successive days). i.e. Hailed by thousands at Jerusalem, the Passover Sacrificial Lamb had gladly separated and presented Himself in the Temple: on the 10th day of Abib ! (see Mark 11:1-11, Exodus 12:3-11) Christ’s body was hurriedly laid in the tomb at eventide/even/sunset - FOUR days later ! It is also interesting to note that the 50 year Jubilee is announced on the Day of Atonement on the tenth day of the seventh month before the Feast of Tabernacles (see Leviticus 25:9), corresponding to the same day that the Passover lamb is separated on the tenth day of the first month before the Feast of Unleavened Bread ! Abstaining from work and food on the Day of Atonement is the least we can do in appreciation of Christ's atoning sacrifice for us ! Every little pang of hunger should remind us of the horrendous ordeal Christ went through for us. In fact if we don't show this appreciation for Christ's sacrifice, His Father says: “For whatsoever soul it be that shall not be afflicted in that same day, he shall be cut off from among his people. And whatsoever soul it be that doeth any work in that same day, the same soul will I destroy from among his people.” (Leviticus 23:29-30) This connection between the Day of Atonement and the Passover was recognised at the time of Christ. They had a “custom” of releasing a prisoner at the Passover, in parallel with the instructions of the Day of Atonement in Leviticus sixteen: to choose two goats for an atoning sin offering. One was sacrificed and the other was chased into the wilderness: Pilate saith unto him, What is truth? And when he had said this, he went out again unto the Jews, and saith unto them, I find in him no fault at all. ( Pilate spoke the truth ! ) But ye have a custom, that I should release unto you one at the passover: will ye therefore that I release unto you the King of the Jews? (John 18: 37-39) Only by taking all the relevant Biblical quotes, into one compatible rationalisation, can we get to the truth ! Work Christ's 265 day gestation BACKWARDS on this DSS's calendar from the Day of Atonement birth on the 28th September, and you get to the 6th January Epiphany CONCEPTION; and 12 days further back you get to December 25th ! Working another 12 days FORWARDS from the Day of Atonement birth, you get to the Feast of Tabernacle's LAST GREAT DAY ! Strange that Christmas Day is 12 days BEFORE the Epiphany conception 265 day gestation and birth on the Day of Atonement, and then 12 days AFTER that is the Last Great Day - just like the "four and twenty elders" around the Throne of God in Revelations ! Are these the "Twelve Days of Christmas"🎶 around Christ in the womb ? 25th December was also never a part of the Roman festival of Saturnalia. 2+6+5=13 John the Baptist's gestation was also 265 days and he was born on the 10th Abib - the same day the Lamb of God came down the Mount of Olives on a donkey proclaimed in Greek as "Oh Saviour" ("Hosannah"), with the way being prepared for him with palm fronds - on the birthday of John the Baptist who also prepared the way for Him, and the same day the Passover lamb is selected. i.e the 25th of December started Mary's follicular phase and Christ was conceived on the 13th day Epiphany on the 6th of January - then born on the Day of Atonement on the 28th September ! 12 disciples + Christ = 13 Don't let pagans steal and demonise our Christmas Biblical "day of gladness" without an in depth investigation first. I also made that same mistake on this journey.....

[@GodGuy8]

so if he was born December 25th 3 B.C and died April 3rd 33A.D he would have been roughly 30 years and 9 months when he started his earthly ministry. checks out for me! thank you (I got april 3rd 33ad from daniels 69weeks prophecy, from a video called "the bible the word of god? extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence."

[@dawsonindustries]

Using the biblical data and other useful however much correlating evidence Jesus was not born in the winter on December 25th or any day then at that. But rather in the late summer/fall in September/October at the latest, or the early spring in March/April. About or around the time of either Passover or tabernacles. Likewise John the Baptist then would be 6 months before then at whichever one Christ Jesus was born around.

[@dawsonindustries]

It is most likely that Christ was born around September/October of 3 BC or March/April 2 BC (maybe September/October 2 BC but that previous date I less hold onto and see it likely late in most probability as far as a chronology. So late 3 BC or early 2 BC. Therefore the late ministry chronology is correct. Jesus was baptized and started His ministry in 29 AD (summer/fall), which if it was 3 1/2 years long, then it ended with the passion and resurrection of our Lord in April 33 AD. Most scholarship has placed His birth in 7/6 - 5/4 BC. And the ministry from 26/27 AD - 30 AD (some people even argue 31, not many if much argue 32. Most argue 30 or 33 AD).

[@harrymcchesney6915]

Interesting. So, you are saying that God was wrong when He told Joseph in a dream to escape to Egypt because Herod was going to search for the child to kill him. Matthew 2:13. This is just one of many problems with the idea that Herod the Great was dead before Jesus' birth. An interpretation needs to have continuity with the rest of scripture for us as Christians to take it seriously. This interpretation is irreparable.

[@ji8044]

There was no massacre of the innocents. Matthew and Luke differ by at least 8 years in their birth date for Jesus. They clearly didn't know.

[@ringoftruthmedia8548]

No, I am not saying Herod was dead before Jesus was born. Just the opposite. But Herod didn't die in 4 BC, he died in 1 BC.

[@ji8044]

@@ringoftruthmedia8548 That's not the case because Archelaus goes to Rome in 4 BC to have Augustus confirm his succession to the rule of his dead father. Baltz didn't mention Archelaus at all that I heard in the video. Theologians almost never do because his rule disrupts the infancy narrative completely.

[@harrymcchesney6915]

@@ringoftruthmedia8548 Ok, I got confused on the BC dates. I see it now. Thank you! I will watch for the next video.

[@harrymcchesney6915]

@@ji8044 let God be true, but every man a liar Romans 3:4

[@ji8044]

Baltz is wrong about almost everything here. There WAS a Roman census of Judea in 6AD but it happened when Herod Archelaus, son of Herod the Great, was deposed by Rome for misrule, not to "liquidate the estate of Herod the Great". Also there was no "all the world census", it was strictly local. So there is no way to reconcile the account in Luke with the account in Matthew in which the birth of Jesus takes place while Herod the Great is still alive. We have a wealth of information about Roman censuses. No Roman census ever required people to return to their ancestral home. It would have defeated the whole purpose of the census, taxation, to send them to places where they may have owned nothing at all. There was no worldwide "collection of loyalty oaths" either. The reason that Baltz doesn't name any sources is because he doesn't have any. We know from the inscription of the Paphlagonian Oath that one citizen or a small number of representative leaders would have taken an oath to the emperor on behalf of the entire town not some migratory day laborer like Joseph. Again, no one was required to travel anywhere to take an oath either. His ideas are completely ahistorical.

[@ringoftruthmedia8548]

As for Quirinius liquidating Archelaus' estate, this is plain from Josephus, Antiquities 18:1:1. As for other objections, read the Thinkers Update on these subjects coming soon. It is not possible to cover all matters in a video interview, but the Thinkers article will supply more evidence. There are answers to all objections, and they are not ahistorical. Augustus himself referred to his censuses of citizens of Rome which he brought about in 28 BC, 8 BC, and 14 AD. These are found on his Res Gestae. The counting that brought Joseph and Mary to Bethlehem was not part of any of these; it was of a different nature.

[@ji8044]

@@ringoftruthmedia8548It's not liquidating the estate. Stop the nonsense!. Herod named Archelaus his successor , which was confirmed by Rome in 4BC. Archelaus then outraged the people with his misrule so Rome took over the direct rule of the province in 6 AD "Augustus himself referred to his censuses of citizens of Rome" Had nothing whatsoever to do with the infancy narrative. Nobody in the infancy narrative was a citizen of Rome. "The counting that brought Joseph and Mary to Bethlehem was not part of any of these; it was of a different nature." Nothing brought them, in Matthew they are already living in Bethlehem. There is no journey there.

[@PatternsOfEvidence]

@@ji8044 respectfully, we recommend you read Dr. Baltz's article on this topic, which will be released on our website next Friday, December 27th, as it addresses all of your supposed criticisms.

[@ji8044]

@@PatternsOfEvidence Respectfully, I recommend you read what I wrote instead since I am a professional historian of many decades and Baltz is a pastor. If you prefer someone prominent, might I recommend "Josephus’s The Jew­ish War: A Biography" by Martin Goodman. He is in my opinion the world's leading Josephus scholar. In print for almost 20 years now, I still think "The Historical Jesus in Context" by Amy-Jill Levine is a go to guide for placing Jesus in the world of a Judean man of the 1st Century. If you want to read an academic compilation work which contains discussions among Luke scholars, I was impressed with "Luke on Jesus, Paul and Christianity: What Did He Really Know?" which was edited by John Kloppenborg and Paul J. Verheyden.

[@TauhidDulu]

The birth of God?? What is this? Is God birthed? Is Mary realised that in her whom contain God? All Mighty in her whom? Come On, use your brain dude ... Jesus is not God. He is only A prophet, just like Abraham, Moses, Noah, Solomon, Jonah, etc. Just like Mohammed Shallahu alaihi wasallam. Who claim that Jesus is God, so The Real God Will be punish him in the hell fire forever (read in the Bible & Qoran). I hope the Real God (Allah) guide you all to the truth that Allah is the Real God and worship Allah, just Allah. Even Jesus in his life always worship Allah & pray to Allah.

[@goatkidmom]

When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am? And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets. He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. - Matthew 16:13-17

[@KingDavid1979]

So ? Mother of god die on a cross? Bounced son of god himself! End of the story he die on a cross 😂

[@goatkidmom]

@@TauhidDulu Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also. - 1 John 2:22-23

[@3muzicluvr]

Read Zechariah 12. In Zechariah 12:1 we see WHO is speaking.....It's YAHWEH, the ALMIGHTY GOD, the FATHER. (Zechariah 12:1 The burden of the word of the LORD against Israel. THUS SAYS THE LORD, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him:) Then in Zechariah 12:10, GOD says this: "And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the SPIRIT of GRACE and supplicate; then they will look on ME whom they PIERCED. Yes, they will mourn for HIM as one mourns for his only SON, and grieve for HIM as one grieves for a FIRSTBORN. In that verse, YAHWEH, GOD the FATHER says of (the one who will be pierced - Crucified), they will look on ME... WHOM THEY PIERCED. They will mourn for HIM as one mourns for a FIRSTBORN. It's ALL right there. YAHWEH, GOD the FATHER says I will POUR OUT MY SPIRIT, The ONE who was PIERCED, WAS ME says GOD. There you have have the SPIRIT of GOD, GOD SAYING HE HIMSELF IS THE ONE WHOM THEY PIERCED, and they will mourn for HIM (GOD HIMSELF) as for a FIRSTBORN SON. THE SPIRIT OF YAHWEH (GOD), YAHWEH HIMSELF AS THE FIRSTBORN SON WHO WAS PIERCED.

[@klaushahn-jk8rq]

What a load of crap all lies