The Community of A Vision of Shadows - Sunny's Spiel | Warriors Analysis

Suggested by Herriberri on my Patreon!
A Vision of Shadows…I do not like you. And I can quibble all day about the main characters’ arcs or the failures of the plot or how the entire arc could be skipped over while changing almost nothing about the main story, but the biggest thing that makes me dislike you so much is the complete lack of community. But analyzing that community is my task today, so let’s get into it.
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End Card Song: Ponte de Abril - Steve Adams • Ponte de Abril

[@TheAshfurApologist]

Obviously the biggest flaw was how the Erin's handled darktail, he was an absolutely phenomenal antagonist, and while his final battle with onestar was amazing, they did it during the halfway mark. Like you really can't have such an emotional and climatic situation not be the ending. Like imagine if the killed BrashStar during Veil Of Shadows, and then had the rest of The Broken Code without bramblestar's imposter being there, it would have been nonsense. So much happened during the first half of this arc, the second act was just in a lose, lose situation(although to be fair, I've come across a surprisingly decent amount of fans who genuinely mentioned they enjoyed the second act, so good on them).

[@Mossyspring]

BRASHSTAR IS THE BEST NAME LMAO

[@Wowwowpow13]

The Broken Code was nonsense anyway though for me.

[@deweyr_fisher]

That was my main problem with AVOS. Shattered Sky was already pretty brutal but imagining how much more dark it could have gotten if they had Onestar and Darktail kill each other in book 5-6 leaves me feeling a bit cheated, lol. We could have had even more horror-esque stuff since Darktail is literally a cult leader I also think that a lot of the time they don’t need 6 book arcs, I think in some cases 3-4 book arcs would help prevent all of the random filler like traveling books that rarely accomplish anything substantial

[@shadowyct]

I think that, if the erins want to throw random background characters into random scenes, they could organize characters into "against" and "for" and such, to prevent a situation like grassheart being inconsistent on her stance on Rowanstar.

[@shadowyct]

basically: give characters at least one consistent personality trait pls

[@-primrose-]

You are asking for too much. Sadly.

[@joltyflare]

I honestly memorize them. It shouldn't be that hard...but I guess it is to a team of people that changes so often. I dunno.

[@RobynLapp]

Or failing that, call attention to how a character who was highly critical of Rowanstar starts to realize he was better than nothing when he steps down...that's at least realistic...but if they aren't Scorchfur the writers don't remember.

[@averageanimefan519]

I loved Stormcloud in Bramblestar's Storm and was excited to see him grow and develop. But good god, they did nothing with his character. One of the few interesting background characters we have has nothing. His relationship to his clan mates after giving up being a kittypet isn't talked about. As an outsider coming in, what are his thoughts on some of the rules like medicine cats can't have kits or the leader's word is law? We've never had an outsider come into the clan, look at these rules and go 'Uh these seem outdated and harmful. Why do you follow these rules when it's gotten cats hurt before?'.

[@Spottedstorm27]

This made me feel so much better for my love of Nectarpaw and reminded me of how much I loved Stormcloud and felt betrayed by the way he was thrown away.

[@sweetsartcorner]

It bugged me so much when Finpaw had that whole "losing half his taiL" storyline and he insistend he would never be able to be a normal warrior again and the whole time Twigpaw was like "wow this is a unique accident that has never happened to anyone before ever, sure wish i could help", entirely ignoring that she grew up around a character who had the same injury! That feels very representitive of how that arc treats all background characters as the same, ignoring any past arcs, character traits, alliances or development. Even former protagonists have no unique reactions or interactions based on their past arcs.

[@PokemonkaDub]

Vision of Shadows was where Warriors became trully an assembly line series. There were sighns before but the "failed" soft reeboot of a prequel Dawn of the Clans is what caused us not only to get back to the modern clans, but also destroyed the concept of novelas and supereditions, making them just the ark books but longer. Not to mention the unncessairity of Squirrelflight's miraculous fertility = while making the new protags Lionblazes kits would fit just as well and made the problem of overpopulation in Thunderclan a bit smaller. Its also where the erins begin to take all sort of shortcuts, because last time they cared did not pay off for the publishers - so why bother, just give us some legacy characters, some tired tropes etc. Kids will eat it up because it's "so-and-so's son" as a pov. Stormcloud is a terrible example of writers neglect - they even forgot his crush as a part of why he stayed in the clans - not to mention he was a PERFECT apportunity to help with the incest in Thunderclan, some fresh blood, but noooo we need a miraculous healing of infertility.

[@sweetsartcorner]

Squilf having kits all of the sudden was so unnecessary! Alderheart never really had any meaningful interaction with his parents beyond the way any medicine cat would interact with a leader and deputy...

[@deweyr_fisher]

Even though I do agree with you, Squirrelflight was never infertile iirc. StarClan/Yellowfang just told her that to convince her to take in Leafpool’s kits because she’d think she wouldn’t have a chance to raise any kits ever [cause it’s not like adoption or being a nursery queen exists…crazy talk.] I don’t think Squirrelflight having kits mattered since despite the numerous retcons to make everyone closely related no one acts like it.

[@sweetsartcorner]

@@deweyr_fisher very possible they just straight up lied to her, the characterization of StarClan in the later seasons is truly wild like that :'D And yeah, for all their talk about how important kin is, they really dont show any particular affection or close relationships within their family. Which is extra annoying with former protagonists :(

[@deweyr_fisher]

@@sweetsartcorner I’m fairly sure they did lie, only to turn round and try to gaslight her and leafpool into thinking they somehow are at fault for following instructions…lol.

[@pixelapocrypha]

It's crazy that they gave Stormcloud such an interesting origin story but did nothing with him after that. Like if we imagine that was the start of an arc and I was given his backstory as the summary, I would expect him to become a protagonist, someone important, because of how much went into where he came from and how he joined ThunderClan. That's like if Into the Wild introduced Rusty but then relegated him to a background character that got a couple of lines per book after that.

[@UnlikeVarjak]

Stormcloud was by the best character to ever had the spotlight, and me with other fans are STILL waiting for him to be paired up with Cherryfall. It was slightly hinted in Bramblestar's Storm and shouldve gotten a go ahead

[@Kibui]

You know I'd be okay if we had some "nothing" characters in the clans just to fill them out and show that they have more than two members (provided they at least keep track of what opinions they gave the cat to say to avoid doing the opposite). But only if it meant that we had stronger supporting and main casts that we actually do get to see evolve and interact with others on more than just a surface level

[@inkylynx2777]

I think part of the reason why characters end up being so underdeveloped in Warriors (not just AVOS, this is just where it's at its worst) is because of its limitations as a middle grade book with strict deadlines and short turnover times. Recently I listened to some college lectures on writing speculative fiction and in the lessons on short stories, the more characters you have, the more words you need to dedicate to those characters (not necessarily fleshing them out, but at least establishing that they exist). I've been reading the Wheel of Time over the past year and I'm nearly finished. This series has over 2700 named characters (Warriors has over 1400 as of this point in time) spread out over 4.4 million words (idk how many words Warriors has, no one has sat down and calculated the exact number and all we have are guesstimations, _get on with it, wiki team!)_ One book in WoT on average consists of 300k words on average, while a core series book is anywhere from 60k-65k words long (again, we don't have exact numbers), making a whole arc roughly 372k words long. TPB, TNP, and arguably DotC with their condensed casts had at least _some_ room to develop characters, but with AVOS, TBC, and ASC trying to juggle _three plots,_ in a 60k-65k word book is just not feasible! You shouldn't juggle multiple plots until you have the room to comfortably juggle them in! To be completely fair to AVOS, upon looking at the audiobook lengths of its books, it ends up being one of the longer arcs overall, with books around 9-10 hours long instead of the typical 7-8, but you can tell like a cicada nymph ready to shed its shell, it _needed_ that extra room and is right about ready to burst at the seams.

[@HiHi-lt1cb]

I haven't watched the video yet, but a Vision of Shadows is one of my favorite arcs: and by that I mean the first 3 books of it. I really like the IDEA of Violetshine and Twigbranch, even if their characters weren't done well. However, Needletail is amazing and is in my top 3 favorite characters. Her sacerfice gives me chills. In my opinion, Shattered Sky is one of the best Warriors books to date and its one of my favorites. Too bad the rest of the arc wasn't as good.

[@sweetsartcorner]

youre so right! The first 3 books were pretty strong, i have rarely ever been so emotionally impacted by a warriors book as i was by the height of Darktail's reign, Violetpaws fear, Needletails sacrifice and the way entire clans were wiped out by it. They handled the aftermath of that so poorly

[@CelesteTreecat]

Some of my favorite characters come from this arc which is why it's taken me a lot longer to come to terms with how poorly written it is, likely through more fault of the rushed process than the Erins. It should have been a wonderful opportunity to deep dive ShadowClan's culture and struggles after living under the reigns of Brokenstar and Tigerstar, and what legacy has been left behind after Blackstar's death. But that would rely on more time and effort to develop those ideas, not to mention a consistent cast of characters to give it any sense of depth. You know what we should do instead? Take everyone's least favorite part of Power of Three and OOTS and give IT the spotlight! Didn't you love putting aside character-driven narrative so we can have every cat and their grandma declare, 'But this prophecy is so important! What could it possibly mean?' while failing to do anything to investigate it?

[@ccondelli]

I adore Alderheart and the first 3 books in this arc. The rest sort of fell flat :/ I agree they killed the background characters D=

[@Danmeilover69]

When I think of this arc I think of my love for the first three books and then tell myself that this arc only has 3 books.

[@vanillaownschocolate7327]

maybe its bc violetshine is my favorite cat, but bc her pov was my fav in the arc, i found myself enjoying the supporting characters in her part of the story more than the others. i know theres a lot of cats who are unnecessarily nasty to her, but i think a lot of the shadowclan cats in particular had rly interesting interactions and potential, w some of my favorites being pinenose, crowfrost, sleekwhisker, and scorchfur. tho i wish there was a looot more done w some particular cats (like puddleshines siblings aka violetshines foster siblings), i always liked the characterization in shadowclan during this arc even if a lot of the background cats dont get a lot of development.

[@Pyxaanthal]

I honestly love AVoS, it's my favorite arc. I will admit that it is nowhere near the best quality-wise, and I am frustrated to death by the background characters. But I honestly think the first three books are the best books warriors has to offer, especially Shattered Sky. So much happened in the first three books and all of it sticks with me. The second half though? Completely dropped the ball. I can't tell you a single thing that happened in the second half of AVoS. Honestly I would love to see someone rewrite it in a similar fashion as your PoT rewrite, as you suggested at the end. The one thing this video made me realize though was how dirty Warriors did Stormcloud! He could have been so cool omg

[@higgy0789]

I tried thinking of a rewrite for AVoS a while ago, so here’s some of my biggest gripes: -I thought Alderheart was meant to become SkyClan’s medicine cat. From the beginning, he had this undeniable connection to SkyClan’s struggle, and then he just… doesn’t for the second part of the arc. His biggest significance to the SkyClan plot is that he failed to find them once and became close with the cat who did, so why was he the one with the vision? If he realized he was meant to be SkyClan’s medicine cat, he would overcome his anxiousness and tell his family, who he’s close to, and say goodbye. It adds more to the idea of Twig’s and Violet’s home, because Alderheart grew up with a great family and environment, but realized his destiny lay elsewhere. -The arc that brings back SkyClan… doesn’t have a SkyClan protagonist until the second half. How cool would it have been to have a SkyClan protagonist introduced in the second book, after the reader now knows they’re lost? -Sparkpelt and Alderheart didn’t do anything related to the plot for so much of the arc?? Like maybe Alderheart and Sparkpelt decide to go find SkyClan themselves because they got a message that makes them believe SkyClan is needed to finish off Darktail, and they find Twigpaw of SkyClan who went looking for Pebbleshine or something, and together the three of them bring SkyClan back to the lake -A SkyClan cat killing Darktail would have been so satisfying. Like yeah Onestar doing it is important for his character and all but after reading Hawkwing’s Journey, I really want it to be a SkyClan cat!

[@Shiny_Misty]

I am so sad with what they did to Stormcloud. Like...REALLY upset. ;w;

[@TessuDraws]

I'm so mad about Stormcloud. They even had a blossoming romance for him and..... Cherryfall..? Some ThunderClan she-cat in Bramblestar's Storm. And then it was just forgotten and now he's a nobody in the background. Might as well not have joined the Clan at all.

[@TaffyCat6712]

This is the only warriors series I read and I finished it recently

[@Volt_-]

They threw away a good chance with Fernsong too! Now with Bristlefrost gone and Ivypool as deputy; I really hope the authors make him a permanent queen and have him adopt kits. This would be something never done before and would be so sweet.

[@sooshwa4180]

I actually love aVoS. I know that the background characters are inconsistent and the second half of the arc dragged on a little bit, but even though a lot of characters became npcs, they did a brilliant job introducing new characters that would be remembered. I pity anyone who skipped the arc and didnt meet cats like Tree, Needletail, or even Rowanstar (who i could happily write a 20 paragraph essay about). Another reason I love it is that the storyline is simple and standalone. If someone skipped to aVoS without reading the previous arcs, it would be more comprehendible than, say, The Broken Code or Omen of the Stars, that bring back a bunch of old characters with backstories crucial to their characters. I just feel like its a breath of fresh air to be introduced to a new plot with new interesting characters. But dont worry aVoS will never beat my love for A Starless Clan 🤩

[@UrFavBlondieee13]

I would have loved instead of TwigBranch being stuck with FinLeap, she became friends with StormCloud, who offered comfort to her for her Clan switch.

[@Melindaington]

Unrelated to background characters, I remember when I was reading AVOS I thought the twist was going to be that Twig and Violet were Echo/Dark kits, but they either didn't know or thought the medicine cat rule was cruel, and something happens to Echosong or she runs away in fear of StarClan's wrath which turns Darktail against the Clans and wants to see them abolished. After all, why would some dead cats he's never heard of get to decide who he can or cannot be with? The "Onestar is his father" plotline feels... very random. I think it would've been much more dramatic if Violet and Twig defeated him, and at the last moments he realizes they're his children. As far as background characters go, not just for AVOS, I really feel like Warriors needs to return to one POV. A multiple POV book can be good, but with how fast they need to make these books, focusing on ONE protagonist and their arc (whether per series or for one book) would probably make the process a lot smoother, make it a lot easier to keep track of background characters, and because we wouldn't be jumping around so much we'd have time to breathe and dig into characters relationships.

[@MarcPlayYatagarasu]

The most relevant thing i remenber only is a moonkitti video where bramblestar likes him more than Alderheart also calling him his third favorite son but again it was a moonkitti video with the joke than Bramblestar almost do not remenber who Alderheart is

[@MarcPlayYatagarasu]

I'm writting my own story of Fantasy I use many Of The cat Warrior names for the names Of noble families like Blackstar than this family has extra toes, Bluestar this one for a Sword, Fireheart, Tigerclaw, Ivypool, Whitewing, Shadowsight, Halfmoon, Alderheart, The Ship Blueoak and the rival of the main protagonist of the demon route nickname is Scourge

[@professionalcatperson2177]

I actually got invested in Warriors fanfic writing through this arc by imagining the relationships myself. A lot of the "relationships" I remember from the arc are just background stuff I made up, but I certainly love the arc more for its story than its characters.

[@RobynLapp]

I really like the first half of this arc but I know I may have filled in a lot of the cracks in my own head. Lots of people were really glad that Thunder and Shadow covered several moons really quickly and didn't 'drag on through the main character's apprenticeship' like PoT and OotS but there was so much that could be fleshed out in ShadowClan. Six apprentices isn't an uncontrollable kitten boom (there were more in ThunderClan in the beginning of PoT) but ShadowClan has lost a LOT of characters from the earlier arcs, even excluding those who died fighting the Dark Forest. How did that affect their society? I can see differences in personality between the rebellious apprentices and I really don't think treating them as individuals rather than a mob would lessen their impact as anti-role models too much. (Juniperclaw is the impulsive, dumb one, Strikestone the introspective wannabe philosopher, you get the picture.) I'm actually okay with Violetkit/paw being lonely and neglected because there are believable reasons for it if they took the time to develop it. Pinenose wasn't given a choice in taking in another kit and, while she could have done better, there's a reason foster parents are usually people who WANT to give someone else's kid a home in real life. Grassheart is a very young first time mother and overwhelmed with her litter. Rowanstar is overwhelmed in general. Pinenose's kits are sadly not THAT unusual in not being particularly interested in playing with a much younger child (Lilyheart's weren't either and their age gap was smaller.). Tawnypelt doesn't have a good relationship with her apprentice so she ends up judging Violetkit by association. Sleekwhisker is consistently mean-spirited in general so it makes sense that she's a bully. I'll stop rambling because you can get the picture.

[@mothwingthemedicinecat]

the background characters are one of the most disappointing things about AVOS. like, only a few characters had a relationship to the main character. There isn't a reason really to have that many characters if they dont even show up in the books

[@lj2659]

Twigbranch and Needletail are some of my favorite characters in the whole series. It makes me sad that most other characters in this arc are just meh

[@HiHi-lt1cb]

I absolutely love Needletail. Twigbranch wasn't one of my favorites until she made the choice to go back to Thunderclan and told Finleap she didn't want kits. God, I LOVE her for that!! Obviously nothing wrong with wanting kids, but once she-cats become mothers they usually lose their personality. I'm so glad they've kept Twigbranch child-free as she wanted.

[@SavouryGalette]

They did Finleap DIRTY in The Raging Storm. People already liked him and Twigbranch as they were, they could have had them get together _without_ completely butchering Finleap in the process.

[@aliviahouk7018]

Most of these cats are improved in the next arc. Stormcloud helps sparkpelt and in river defends lilyheart and twigbranch when bramblestar insults them about prey. Nectorpaw has babies... And grassheart is used a little more.

[@saraceaser]

Honestly my thing is that it feels like a MadLibs but instead of 'object' or 'adjective' it's all just 'insert name here'. I kind of liked Vision of Shadows (well, certain books/parts) but the rest is... yeah. :/

[@pillowmoment]

I think AVOS had some really good parts but it’s so boring. I’m making an AU for it based on two of my favorite medias atm and i haven’t even reread the damn series to get a refresh. I TRIED. And i got so bored i had to stop. I forgot so many names i’ve made a good handful of OCs for it just to fill in the uninteresting spots. Hell one of the MOST important characters is an OC because i forgot whoever i had in mind for that role. Some cats that do exist i can’t consider canon cats anymore because i gave them new personalities that actually make sense and are consistent. Even darktail leans into this because i gave him more depth. This AU is so easy for me to build because i don’t have to keep track of characters and make them consistent and accurate when they’re never consistent in the first place. It’s kind of a shame. That being said i am keeping track of my own characters, don’t get me wrong.

[@Ratastrophe__]

I really thought Lioneye or any other former jerk shadow clan apprentice would get more screen time

[@darkninjafirefox]

AVoS as an arc annoys me more than anything. There are elements that could ne really cool but i cant help but wish that Sparkpelt had gotten the pov instead of alderheart. I just find his constant anxiety annoying and Sparkpelt's feelings about looking just like Firestar would be really fun to read about. But DotC will forever be my most hated arc, i just cant stand reading graywing winge about his shitty brother's shitty actions making him look shitty. Not to mention the misogyny

[@meeplol145]

I feel like Alderheart’s anxiousness kinda disappeared? He became a little bland and boring to me lol. And yes, I couldn’t stand DOTC. It frustrated me so much-

[@deweyr_fisher]

yeah DOTC was very in your face with their bizarre take on relationships. And why does the narrative constantly remind us that the kids Gray Wing willingly accepted into his family aren’t actually his and that he needs his own kids to be happy? The amount of love interests each protag gets [gray wing gets 3, thunder has two, clear sky has at least 3] is ridiculous. Also them all having at least one shared love interest [aside from gray wing and thunder] always rubbed me the wrong way [esp Clear Sky and Star Flower like really dude?? that’s your son’s girlfriend..]

[@scwack1535]

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