The Controversial 2012 AL MVP Debate...10 Years Later

Use code STORM for $20 off your first SeatGeek order.
seatgeek.oneli...
Hey everyone!
MVP races are a notable storyline throughout every season. Some races end up being more contentious than others. The 2012 AL MVP race was one of those contentious races. However, it represented more than a simple MVP debate, it represented a shift in traditional baseball ideals.
Follow me on Twitter: / sportstorm23
All sources (Articles/Media): pastebin.com/M...
Music:
1. • Documentary Music - ... (prod. CO.AG Music)
2. • [FREE FOR PROFIT] Juic... (prod. Malloy)
3. • [FREE FOR PROFIT] Juic... (prod. Malloy)
4. • [FREE FOR PROFIT] Juic... (prod. Malloy)
5. • Video (prod. Voyce)
Business: [e-mail]
Copyright Disclaimer Under Section 107 of the Copyright Act of 1976, allowance is made for “fair use” for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, education and research. Fair use is a use permitted by copyright statute that might otherwise be infringing.

[@diamondhead1984]

Since the MLB writers have been so inconsistent with pitchers in MVP voting, I'd prefer that pitchers not be considered for the award from here on out. To me the CY Young is basically a MVP award for pitchers. However, that being said, Ohtani really mucks up my argument on this one.

[@King_Immanuel]

I agree

[@SportStorm23]

Definitely a fair argument

[@Il_Exile_lI]

I get your point, but I think a better solution is to elevate the prestige of the Hank Aaron award, which is given to the best hitter, to the same level as the Cy Young. In that scenario, pitchers and hitters both have their own award of equal acclaim and then the MVP can take into account all aspects of the game (pitching, hitting, defense) and be awarded to the best overall player regardless of position.

[@khalilmartinez6063]

@@Il_Exile_lI I would completely agree, and even argue to add another award on the same level to simply commemorate the best fielding. Then we could have a cy young, hank Aaron and platinum/named after other player for just fielding to round out the trio

[@Joe-gt5lw]

@@khalilmartinez6063 there’s already a platinum glove award for the best fielder each year in each league

[@geezushasrisen]

Don’t care. Triple Crown.

[@jetercollector2134]

Jeter should have won in 06 :P

[@A.B.421]

0:38 I wouldn’t call that an unwritten rule. I agree with it. I think you need to have one of the literal best hitting seasons of all-time to win the MVP as a DH, because you’re only hitting. The name of the award is literally “Most Valuable Player.” If you’re a slow, bulky guy who doesn’t play defense, you’re not as valuable as somebody who has great hitting stats and also contributes defensively and on the base paths.

[@SportStorm23]

I wonder if Yordan Alvarez changes perceptions this year

[@SportStorm23]

What’s interesting is Alvarez isn’t a full time DH, so that would definitely be a factor

[@Mikebucketz]

I feel like at the end of the day the position players that win the mvp are almost always the guys with the best hitting season anyways. I think if a DH has one of the best hitting seasons outta anyone else he should be in the running for the mvp just as much as a position player

[@blackmamba1261]

Or you could, idk, pitch a few innings here and there to make up for not defending most of the time. Of course, such a thing would never happen at the MLB level

[@A.B.421]

@@blackmamba1261 pitchers play defense. And Ohtani (I know that’s who you’re referencing) also makes an impact on the base paths. He is not just a DH.

[@jasonfire3434]

I think the real reason Cabrera won MVP over Trout is a little more simple: Cabrera’s team won the AL Central. Trout’s team finished in third place and missed the playoffs. For a narrative-driven award it’s not a coincidence that the year Trout and the Angels finally won the AL West (2014) is when he finally won his first MVP. I know players have won it on losing teams before but I don’t think voters like to “reward” non-playoff players unless it’s an obvious choice.

[@nebbac]

Not to be a smart ass but this is how mvp has normally worked. Trout kinds of ruins the narrative because he’s won it on bad team. Miggy had the better year but so did his team. That’s why he won it again the very next year. Same exact circumstances

[@gibby2231]

Cabrera is a better player plain and simple

[@Kenny_G]

@@gibby2231 Stick to basketball and Big Baller Brand, Lavar, stay in your lane!

[@soarinskies1105]

No he won because Cabrera did something no hitter had done since the 1960’s, win a triple crown. It had nothing to do with trout being on a team that didn’t make the playoffs.

[@tarilapoweigha4037]

Trout already won MVP's he didn't deserve and Cabrera should have won the MVP.

[@PHDFlopperr]

People value batting triple crown differently than pitching triple crowns. I feel like its way harder for a hitter to get a triple crown.

[@michaellyga4726]

It is. Wins, strikeouts and ERA genuinely go together. On the other hand, guys hitting 40+ HRs and racking up tons of RBIs usually sacrifice batting average for power, and the same is true in reverse. Guys who bat .330 and up usually have contact first approaches that sacrifice home run power (and these guys usually bat leadoff, which means RBIs are hard to come by) If you’re Uber talented you can do it all at the same time, but those guys are few and far between.

[@josezermeno8283]

No I disagree we’ve seen pitchers like deform only get 10 wins a season even after having a historic year. You control everything as a hitter. If you don’t have anyone in base you can still get an rbi with a homerun

[@harper-leightonscott4566]

@@josezermeno8283 that's because pitchers arent going deep into the games. Also ND's are the real killer.

[@PHDFlopperr]

@@josezermeno8283 how the fuck does the amount of games he won matter?? Its 50/50. Baseball is a 1v1, pitcher vs hitter. He didnt win anything cause his team couldn’t hit, specifically when he was the SP.

[@josezermeno8283]

@@PHDFlopperr you’re missing my argument. He’s claiming hitting triple crown is harder than a pitching one. You just helped me prove my point

[@lochnloaded6905]

It is nearly impossible to not give the first triple crown winner since 1967 the mvp award. Like I get trout had a fantastic season but imagine the backlash that would’ve been caused by miggy not winning the mvp but leading in the 3 stats we’ve had for decades. Miggy also took his team to the playoffs while trouts didn’t (it’s something that still plays a factor into voting). Miggy also played at a very pitchers friendly ball park (420 centerfield) for half his games. I personally don’t think the decision was that controversial however I still think they both had great seasons. It wasn’t like they gave it to Matt Wieters now that would be controversial.

[@kelvinhenriquez1019]

Completely agree with you, there's nothing controversial in a triple crown getting a MVP. Id say Trout getting MVP over Betts was more controversial than this

[@jessegarcia2064]

The angels finished with a better record. Not their fault the tigers play in the worst division. The angels since his call up also had the best record in baseball

[@Jose_Hunters_EWF_Remixes]

Ted Williams won the Triple Crown in 1941 DiMaggio hit in 56 straight games in the same season DiMaggio's stats better than Williams': AB, H, SB (4 versus 2) Williams over DiMaggio: G, WAR, R, HR, BB, BA, OBP, SLG, OPS, adjusted OPS+ (235 versus 185) Williams hits .406!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Writers liked DiMaggio They didn't like Williams One more example, because writers once thought that SSs had magical team-leadership cohesive intangible metaphysical powers 1925 - Roger Peckinpaugh had 2.7 WAR, beat Al Simmons 6.6 WAR The numbers comparison is disgusting, look at them yourselves (quick e.g., HITS 253 vs. 124 - I am not kidding) I'll distill them to the following Peck: adjusted OPS+ 91 Simmons AOPS+ 149 Conclusion: Writers are often STOOPID They assign utmost importance to intangibles, metaphors, bulls hit

[@antonioreconquistador]

Ya i dont get how its controversial... Or how its a matter of calculated statistics over counting/simple average statistics when miguel cabrera was still far and away more productive than encarnacíon and granderson and mike trout was still impressive in his rookie year

[@albanianmarty]

Agreed.

[@codenamelarry6518]

What’s crazy is that you could argue that Cabrera’s 2013 season was better than his 2012 season, but Chris Davis hit 53 home runs in 2013, so there was no repeat Triple Crown.

[@eliotjurgensen1421]

Cabrera playing a new position should not factor into the decision. The fact is thay he was playing that position, and he was playing it poorly.

[@AbleAnderson]

Sorry but this is possibly the least controversial MVP win I've ever seen. Miguel won the goddamn triple crown, there is no one that should have been anywhere close to him in voting. It's not close at all

[@petersonofleo11]

I don't know the triple crown is amazing but is way too dependent on other players. Cabrera was way better on 2013 than on 2012. Trout on 2012 was way more complete than Cabrera since he had his best season on the glove and was a menace as a base runner while being a top 5 hitter that season. Cabrera was the best hitter on 2012 but had a horrible glove. A example of a season better than 2012 Cabrera was 1999 Manny Ramirez .333/.442/.663 1.105 ops 165 rbi and 44 homeruns. 2012 Cabrera was the best hitter but best player? I dont think so.

[@radish1972]

@@petersonofleo11 he wasn't even the best hitter in 2012.

[@petersonofleo11]

@@radish1972 Who do you think was the best hitter on 2012????

[@radish1972]

@@petersonofleo11 either buster posey or Trout. Not Miggy.

[@petersonofleo11]

@@radish1972 I give Miggy the edge over them because of his slugging. Miggy slashline was .330/.393/.606. Trout was .326/.399/.564. Posey was .336/.408/.549 sure Posey was better in batting average and obp than Miggy but by really small margins but Miggy was better at slugging over Posey by .057 which is kind of significant. Trout and Posey had better seasons than Miggy but Miggy was the better hitter.

[@theverburger]

As a Tigers fan I'm so glad to see Miggy show glimpses of his past self hitting over 300 at age 39 people forget how good he was. He is the one of the few people to have over 3000 hits and 500 home runs so glad he made the asg as well.

[@tpguitars]

And 600 career doubles.

[@theverburger]

@@tpguitars Hell yah!

[@aidanhanley1779]

It is an interesting debate however I believe that a GOOD triple crown season should generally result in an mvp simply because of its historical significance, if Trout had won the MVP we would look back on it as “the season where Miggy had a triple crown but they gave the mvp to someone else” instead of “the season where miggy had a triple crown mvp season and mike trout also played really well” I hope that makes sense

[@SportStorm23]

I totally understand your point

[@mauricionavarro3782]

Casual

[@aidanhanley1779]

@@mauricionavarro3782 Why does that make me a casual? If a player had a 74 home run season and 9.5 war and another player had an 11 war season, who would you give the mvp to? Raw numbers and analytics are important but you also cannot overlook context.

[@radish1972]

@@aidanhanley1779 yes you can. because RBI's are a dogshit stat to measure a player because they use CONTEXT. you cannot have good RBI numbers if your team isn't getting on base.

[@SFGiantsfan9797]

@@radish1972 can’t get RBIs if you’re not a good clutch hitter. It is a good stat. This is why I will never get down with sabermetrics

[@canadasown02]

I still give Miggy the MVP.

[@cartero9176]

How is this a question? Cabrera easily deserved it

[@PHDFlopperr]

Pedro was 118% better than Pudge, 3-6 WAR advantage as well and he still lost. Damn.

[@jmp1430]

If we want to talk about mistakes in terms of MVP voting and triple crowns, we have to discuss the 1942 AL MVP vote. Ted Williams literally won a triple crown, played more games than Joe Gordon, had a better 162g pace WAR (and obviously a better war generally but … ), beat this man in every conceivable way… but the voters gave it to Gordon bc he was a Yankee. Unreal

[@sirfallsalot2000]

You sure that’s Gordon and not DiMaggio?

[@andrewfeeback4465]

It’s always a good day when sportstorm uploads :)

[@SportStorm23]

Thank you!

[@TSDragun]

Would love to see a similar video with Matt Kemp and Ryan Braun 2011 MVP race, Not only did Braun use performance enhancing substances but I truly think Kemp had the better season and deserved it…man was robbed!

[@brandonbari40]

Yeah Kemp got robbed. Braun is a cheater.

[@fortynights1513]

Was Milwaukee significantly better as a team?

[@jadenfoster7729]

@@fortynights1513 the only competent players on that dodgers team was kemp and kershaw

[@juanitotucupei]

I really hope Luis Arraez hits .400 and puts batting average back in the mix as a key stat. Putting the ball in play and hitting for contact still matters. As of two weeks ago, Juan Soto and Freddy Freeman were tied in OPS+ (160), but in batting averages Freddy was hitting ~.333 while Soto hitting ~.261. I don’t care what the sabermetrics say, those two OPS+ are NOT the same even if they are statistically equal. Traditional stats (AVG, HR, RBI) do matter!! Miguel Cabrera deserved the MVP over Trout.

[@nicholasmuscolino3001]

McCutchen winning MVP over Goldschmidt in 2013 is an example of the opposite situation (defensive WAR + playoffs = MVP award over superior bat)

[@firechase1603]

Cutch made the Pirates team way better. He was pretty damn valuable.

[@ferdielaudumiey7643]

Even if miggy didn’t win triple crown he still would’ve won mvp he definitely deserved it

[@jessegarcia2064]

He shouldn't have won. Trout was better all around and finished with a better record than the tigers despite missing the playoffs. And trout was better in 2013 as well. Trout shouldve been a 2 time winner by the time he won his first

[@au8363]

ACCEPT JESUS AS YOUR LORD AND SAVIOR AND REPENT JESUS LOVES YOU HE DIED FOR YOU SO YOU COULD BE FORGIVEN ASK GOD FOR FORGIVENESS AND REPENT!🙏🙏 🙏 AMEN

[@beersteinsteve4690]

Yeah Cabrera wasn’t the greatest defender as Trout but how many elite players say hey what can I do to help us win. He changed positions going to third base, a position he hasn’t played full time in 5 years. Plus his leadership is something stats don’t show

[@chrisknapp6615]

The greatest travesty in MVP voting of all time was the year Ryan Howard won over Pujols

[@moalawadi]

I also think that writers tend to shy away from giving Rookies the MVP. Some might give their vote but majority will give it to the veteran as the "obvious" decision.

[@cb4460]

Not to mention Miggy did it in probably the least hitter friendly park

[@patsfan138]

if only there were a stat that adjusted for park that trout led the league in. guess we’ll never know.

[@BrysonHicks-wt7bf]

Obviously as a tigers fan I’m a bit biased but Miguel’s win is the outcome I would expect in most situations similar this is one of the best hitters of all time that fact isn’t really up for debate so if we have one of the best hitters get one of the most difficult awards it’s only reasonable to recognize said player as the MVP especially if the number 2 guy is a rookie that had already locked down the rookie of the year award

[@dukejohnson1956]

Trout deserved it but I don’t mind Cabrera getting it

[@Panni1]

Considering the standings and the first triple crown winner I still believe Miguel Cabrera was the right answer here.

[@forextrader7594]

If Miggy was in a park with rational dimensions he would have had 60+. So there’s that

[@luisrosales9349]

I think I would’ve picked Cabrera. It’s a triple crown!

[@matthias2756]

Same seasons today and Trout wins. Hindsight is 20/20

[@seplays2280]

I don’t care how good trout was. If you win the triple crown you deserve to win the MVP award

[@Diggerdog2nd]

I can see your point about Trout being a more complete player. Defense has always been considered secondary to offence for some reason. It's just how we've been programed to think.Its easier for most to understand offensive stats. Personally I rarely bother to look at defensive stats but still You can hit a homer then go out & miss a catch & if someone scores it kind of cancels your hr so of course D is just as important. I'm new to WAR so it'll take some getting used to.

[@JMusar795]

This type of BS is what cost Mookey the MVP he should have won in 2016. How dare you say he should have won, when Cabrera just hit for the triple crown 👑. This is the bias the media has toward him ( Trout) that's why he's a grey(color) player which means; you don't hate him or love him, you just don't care, because of this force propaganda.

[@ilikepie19921]

Trout was better than Mookie in 2016 and he was also better than Cabrera in 2012. It's not media bias, it's just baseball

[@tomassantos87]

Trout was better than Betts in 2016

[@bigbum4916]

You’re a clown

[@jessegarcia2064]

​@@ilikepie19921trout was robbed of an MVP 3 times already

[@ilikepie19921]

@@jessegarcia2064 that’s right

[@PHDFlopperr]

Triple Crown = MVP

[@eliotjurgensen1421]

No. Counting stats can be misleading. Trout was way more valuable.

[@PHDFlopperr]

@@eliotjurgensen1421 It’s definitely variable. If Cabrera went against 2021 Ohtani he wouldn’t have won. But I personally value his triple crown more than Trouts WAR for the reasons stated within the video. Trout also played less games and missed the playoffs.

[@nothachimanhikigaya9921]

Do you understand how hard it is to win the triple crown lol

[@eliotjurgensen1421]

@@nothachimanhikigaya9921 I don't care how hard it is to do something. I care how valuable a player is to a team. It is called the most valuable player award, so it should go to the player who was most valuable (Trout).

[@grrizzzy7]

Casuals will say this. Average is pretty much a useless stat now thus making the triple crown an incredibly misleading and ancient (unofficial) award and needs to be replaced.

[@spg1026]

Credit is given for good interesting video. Miggy winning the first Triple Crown in 45 years equals the MVP is what makes sense for baseball fans over a certain age. Showing WAR numbers and other newer sabermetrics’s will never replace a batting Triple Crown in the eyes of fans over the age 35(in 2012) and now over the age of 45. Playing for a World Series team(not just a playoff team as the video said) makes a big difference as well. Plus Miggy had enough years as a great player to evaluate his value in the clubhouse and teammates have always loved him. Trout was only 20 then and that couldn’t be evaluated then(now we know teammates love him too). Compare any new stat you want but if your the first in 45 years to win a batting Triple Crown your winning the MVP. Case closed. End of story. No amount of videos explaining that poor defense should matter will matter. Being a lifelong Tiger fan matters in this case but if Trout had won the Triple Crown then I wouldn’t have a leg to stand on

[@Gerishwin85]

Pitchers should not win the MVP, that's what the CY Young is for. You can not say a pitcher that starts maybe 35 games a year is more valuable than an everyday player.

[@robertlasher9246]

Ummm. While I agree with you the cy young should be the mvp for pitchers. I do not agree with your 35 games being less valuable than an everyday player. 35 games with 7 IP per game is about 250 Ip. To consistently to do that and carry your team with pitching is more valuable than a hit who hits 300, since he only bats 1 out of 9 at bats. A pitcher can carry a team to a win. A batter cannot

[@chrisk1039]

I disagree that pitchers shouldn’t be considered. Think about it in terms of number of times you are influencing the outcome of the play. If a pitcher is averaging 7 innings per game, bare minimum they are influencing 21 at bats on the game. Do that 35 times a season like you say and that’s 735 outcomes influenced in a given season and honestly that’ feels like a conservative guess considering not every inning is 3 up 3 down. A good hitter can get like what 600ish at bats a season? Unless you’re playing a high value defensive position you’re going to average damn near the same amount of outcomes influenced as that pitcher did, his is just condensed into once every 5 days instead of every day, that’s why amazing games from pitchers like no hitters or perfect games are so well remembered, the pitchers mark is firmly stamped on that game in a way a 4 for 5 great batting outing doesn’t quite reach. If you both have damn near the same amount of influence over the course of the season I don’t see why you can’t have the MVP come from either side. Honestly the Hank Aaron award needs to be made more prestigious, it exists basically in parallel with the Cy Young yet because people put more value on the Cy Young it leads to people feeling like the MVP should naturally go to hitters.

[@josephvanhorn5347]

Ted Williams won the triple crown in 1942 and 1947. He also lead the league in runs, walks, OBP, Slugging, OPS, OPS+, and Total Bases both years. He didn't win the A.L. MVP in 1942 or 1947.

[@rileyfreeman7122]

Because the system was rigged back the to make sure a Yankee won

[@Jose_Hunters_EWF_Remixes]

It was 1941, not 1942 You're a wise man, so I'll repost here what I submitted above: Ted Williams won the Triple Crown in 1941 DiMaggio hit in 56 straight games in the same season DiMaggio's stats better than Williams': AB, H, SB (4 versus 2) Williams over DiMaggio: G, WAR, R, HR, RBI, BB, BA, OBP, SLG, OPS, adjusted OPS+ (235 versus 185) Williams hit .406!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Writers liked DiMaggio They didn't like Williams One more example, because writers once thought that SSs had magical team-leadership cohesive intangible metaphysical powers 1925 - Roger Peckinpaugh had 2.7 WAR, beat Al Simmons 6.6 WAR The numbers comparison is disgusting, look at them yourselves (quick e.g., HITS 253 vs. 124 - I am not kidding) I'll distill them to the following Peck: adjusted OPS+ 91 Simmons AOPS+ 149 Conclusion: Writers are often STOOPID They assign utmost importance to intangibles, metaphors, bulls hit

[@josephvanhorn5347]

@@Jose_Hunters_EWF_Remixes I agree with most of what you said but he won the triple crown in 1942 and 1947. He hit .406 in 1941 but didn't lead the league in RBI's. Regardless, he didn't win the MVP in either of the seasons he won the triple crown OR the year he hit .406.

[@EulogizingSleep]

It’s ok, trout would make up for this and go on to win his own contentious mvp in 2019.

[@letswintwins]

Cabrera was on a better team

[@arielarguello448]

I still would’ve picked miggy ,he played a whole season while trout missed like 20 games

[@jessegarcia2064]

Which makes trout seasons way more impressive. He was much better in less time and the angels had the best record since his call up. While the tigers finished with a worse record than the 3rd place angels

[@Jx-kj9fs]

it’s very simple for me as a Detroiter, it’s Miggy

[@radish1972]

You're wrong.

[@jeffjohnson5876]

@@radish1972 HOW LEGIT HOW, he won the triple crown

[@radish1972]

@@jeffjohnson5876 Trout had a literal better offensive season. RBI's don't mean shit. They are a situational stat. Not only did Trout do better with the Bat, but he also stole 49 bases, and played amazing defense in the 2nd most valuable position besides pitcher and catcher. It's not even close. Trout is the MVP.

[@keith1668]

@@radish1972 how do you say that RBIs don't mean anything. It's literally runs batted in, if he didn't play in 2012 the tigers would of been way worse without him since who would be driving in all of those runs to win games??? Muggy easily won the MVP because he was better than trout offensively, I mean he literally won the triple crown meaning he had the best battling average, Homer's and rbis in the AL. For you to say that RBIs don't mean anything just doesn't make sense like literally that's how you win games by players driving in runs LOL. Yeah trout was better defensively, but if the MVP is based off of defensively then Pedro Martinez should not win the MVP since he doesn't hit or play defensive he just pitches. Like stealing 49 bags is great however you have to see how many times trout scored from those 49 bags that he stole. Remember the player who is up to bat has to drive him in, so if he didn't score a lot from those 49 bags, do they really mean anything at the end of the day? Also Miggy was a 3rd basemen, he may have not been that great defensively but he isn't an outfielder and his bat has more value then some of the what 4 to 5 errors he made that year form 3rd base?

[@radish1972]

@@keith1668 Tell me you don't know baseball holy shit. Think about it this way. Two players have identical stats. AVG, OPS, wRC+, everything. One player plays on the New York Yankees, and the other plays on the Baltimore Orioles. Who is going to have more RBI's? As a result of being on a better team, the New York Yankees batter, because he had MORE OPPORTUNITIES to drive in runs. That's why using RBI's to measure a player is not only useless, it's misleading. You cannot judge a player based on RBI's. At the end of the day, Stats like wRC+ and OPS+ have Trout ahead offensively, considering that Trout played in a harder ballpark than Miggy. He also stole 49 bases and played spectacular defense.

[@josephcooter5763]

Sadly, WAR is being used as the B All end All; which is garbage since no one can agree on how to calculate it. As a rule I general am skeptical of analytics becuase I feel as though they are not as cut and dry as we'd been led to believe. I can look at the same number you look at and draw a completely different conclusion. For example many people look at on base percentage and use it as a measurement of hitting and argue that good hitters have higher onbase percentages. I look at it differently. I see it as a measurement of what kind of hitter you have. High onbase percentage indicate more patient hitters not neccesarilhy betters. Lower Onbase percentage indicate more agressive hitters. In my opinion, any stat that is open to opinion isn't useful. In addition to that other stats, like slugging percentage, have a built in bias. That is a problem. Ask any scientist and they will tell you that bias has a way tarnishing your result and has the ability to skewer your results. Because of that most scientists and researchers go out of thier way to eliminate bias. Not sabermetricians. For whatever reason they seem to either refuse to see the bias of slugging percentage or refuse to acknowledge it since they have embraced the state and used it (along with on-base percentage) as a be all end all measure of hitting even though it has a habit of elevating bad hitters such as JOey Gallo and deflating good hitters like Miguel Andujar. That makes it a worthless statistic which should not be used at all. Yet the sabermetrics community is willing to embrace these measures;; which shows how bad they guys are at reseach. I wouldn't trust them to conduct an opinion poll let alone evaluate the MVP.

[@mattcollett9370]

You started strong, I agree that WAR shouldn’t be the be all end all. Totally dismissing OPS as a valid stat is where you lost me. All it does is measure how often a player reaches base, and how many bases they average/at bat. I don’t get your point about slugging percentage at all

[@josephcooter5763]

@@mattcollett9370 The way that it is being calculated and used by sabermetricians leads to bias. Sabermetricians are using OPS as a measurement of a good hitter, while, as you pointed out, it is merely a measurement of how often you get on base and how many bases you get. Sabermetricians are using slugging percentage as a meaurement for Great hitting even though it is a measurement of how many bases you get. They're interpretting a good hitter as being somebody who gets a lot of extrabase hits as opposed to somebody who makes contact. That not how it should be interpretted. But becuase it is being interpretted that way it is leading to a sort of confirmation bias where in it confirms that good hitters get extra base hits.

[@noahmcdaniel4920]

No one thinks on base % tells you how good someone is at hitting a baseball. It’s considered more relevant than batting average because it doesn’t matter how you get on base when it comes to providing value as a player. A hit has slightly more value because there’s a chance it moves and scores runners more often than a walk will (which by the way, stats like WAR and wRC+ account for), but by and large OBP tells you much more than AVG. I’m taking a .270 hitter with a .390 obp over a .300 hitter with a .350 obp all day if everything else is the same. There’s literally nothing biased about slugging percentage. It’s a measure of how many bases you average per at bat. Bases = runs in this game. The problem is the only stat you seem to value in considering a hitter “good” is how often he gets a base hit, regardless of how many bases that hit goes for or how often he gets on base. If you want to score runs, you want to get on base as much as possible and get as many total bases as possible. That is why OPS is considered the most accurate single stat for measuring a hitter’s value. It has nothing to do with bias. It’s a measure of how runs actually get scored. As far as Miggy vs Trout goes, you can quibble about one calculation of WAR vs another, but the fact is NO calculation of WAR had Miggy anywhere close to Trout. And we don’t even need WAR to look at why a gold glove CF who stole 50 bags and had the same OPS is more valuable than the worst defensive 3B in the league.

[@josephcooter5763]

@@noahmcdaniel4920 That creates a bias becuase sabermetricians value the home run and since you get more credit for hitting a home run than you do a double, it creates a sort of confirmation bias which IS a problem. MOst scientists and mathemeticians will tell you that; and they will also tell you that they go out of thier way to avoid bias. That doesn't seem to be the case with this stat.

[@ramsaybushnaq516]

I think he means ops +, which I also somewhat agree with

[@yellowflamegaulent3902]

I remember the hype that season. A few friends that I went to school with chose Mike Trout because he was at a big debate between Bryce Harper. I think you should do a video of Mike Trout Bryce Harper take from 2012.

[@matthewtrujillo3309]

This contributes to why baseball is dying. Awarding mvps to players on losing teams just because of sabermetrics

[@CarlosSanchez-lc1pn]

I know right? What exactly did Trout help his 3rd place team accomplish?

[@charliep123]

SS: We will someday have another MVP race that is as contentious as this one. The only question is when? *2022 has entered the chat*

[@flame-sky7148]

You got a player that gets the triple crown and leads his team to the World Series. See Ted Williams won the Triple Crown twice, but the Sox dint make the post season. Frank Robinson and Carl Yaz, got their triple crowns and led their teams to the World Series. And that’s why they won MVP.

[@tarilapoweigha4037]

War is 1 of those overrated new stats in baseball.

[@thefaceofbobby509]

The other thing you have to think about is that when talking about the most valuable player is the impact they have on a team. Cabrera by that point was a veteran and team leader. Without him that team would have been a lot different. Trout was a second year player that had a great season but not the leader he is today. Also 139rbi is just ridiculous

[@ashtonb0419]

10 war season is the only argument you need

[@CarlosSanchez-lc1pn]

No, not really. Trout played fewer games. His team didn't make the playoffs either. What exactly did he help them accomplish?

[@ashtonb0419]

@@CarlosSanchez-lc1pn him playing less games and having a higher war is the impressive part. also what 2 players won mvp last year??? oh yea 2 players who missed the playoffs.

[@CarlosSanchez-lc1pn]

@@ashtonb0419 The Marlins made the playoffs in 2020. Did playing fewer games have anything to do with it? That's why they have minimum plate appearances for the batting title. Anyone can do great over a short period.

[@nicksatwr4538]

@@CarlosSanchez-lc1pn trout had bets sesosn in history of mlb for a center fielder and did not win mvp that’s bad

[@i.theworstguys298]

The award is ‘Most Valuable Player’ not ‘Best Offensive Performer’. Just make two separate awards so everyone is happy.

[@iamjobu6101]

They do have separate awards already. They have the Silver Slugger for best hitter in each position and they have the Hank Aaron Award.

[@johnanthony9923]

If you believe Trout's defense should be an important factor in his MVP qualifications, then that's an argument *against* Pedro, who *only* pitches. If Cabrera loses points for subpar defense, surely Pedro should lose points for essentially no offense or defense at all. Either being the best in one facet of the game is enough, or it's not.

[@bobbydyne]

One could argue that pitching is defensive in and of itself. What better defense is there than to not have the batters hit the ball at all?

[@barelyontime]

@@bobbydyne I think the better point to be made is no offense. He didn’t hit and you gotta be pretty sure he couldn’t if he had to

[@ozzuzzomg]

He was a better hitter he had better etc+ and ops+ I believe he would have gotten more hr if he was called up earlier

[@ihytj6251]

Not really, pitchers have an overlooked task of stopping line drives coming right at them, and picking up laid down bunts. Pitchers are defenders too.

[@richcas3491]

Had the Angel's made the playoffs that MVP race would have been a hell of lot closer, triple crown or not. Unfortunately, for all this high-caliber seasons, Trout has decided to doom himself in shitty Angel's teams. Hes only played in the post season once. Decision making similar to Ichiro who wasted his prime seasons on a loser mariner franchise (they fell into oblivion after 2001).

[@austinhawker4152]

the answer to the question, “should miggy be exonerated for changing positions” is yes, first of all. and second, needs to be worded differently. more like “should miggy be exonerated from going to first base to the most difficult position to play in baseball”. miggy deserved the mvp and that is that. tight ends dont run the ball for a reason.

[@dannydubbs9929]

this years al mvp race is gonna get pretty nuts

[@SportStorm23]

absolutely

[@dme1016]

Ohtani's team sucks WITH him. The Yankees Judge has carried the Yank's for most of the year. Who then, is more valuable? A guy on a team who don't win WITH him, or a guy on a team who wouldn't win without him? It's an easy damn question, and anyone who votes Ohtani' over Judge, just doesn't understand baseball, AND they're ignorant, AND they are Yankee haters.

[@sirfallsalot2000]

Okay, listen. As an ohtani fan, I’ll admit that what judge did was more than enough to win mvp. But you have to remember that this team has trout and ohtani. And trout and ohtani only cover 2 spots in the lineup, and 1 spot in the rotation. It’s not fair just to say that the Yankees wouldn’t have won without judge. There was a reason why they won 99 games. And judge only realistically added for 10 of these. So don’t just say that because judge was on a winning team, he should win it.

[@dme1016]

@@sirfallsalot2000 Without Judge, the Yanks are on vacation now....like the God-Babies (Angels).

[@saulgoodmans]

W

[@patsfan138]

@@dme1016 switch their places and they don’t get swept by the astros 🤷‍♂️

[@dme1016]

@@patsfan138 The Ass-Stros admittingly are in the Yanks heads. And.... Houston's diverse lineup is an exciting one. The Yanks....although they're my team, are boring, with no position players of color. No dreds, no braids, no bat flips, no excitement. Corporate and BORING!!

[@ClayClaydol]

Personally, my triple crown is Walks/Triples/Stolen Bases. And before you tell me those are 3 completely arbitrary stats..... 😐

[@justvibing2497]

I really hate the bullshit war stat, thats the only thing mention for trout..Miguel clear beat trout, the war gotta go

[@patsfan138]

“i don’t understand something and that makes me angry”

[@little_cheerio3812]

lmao ain’t this so ironic this is kind of happening this year☠️ we got judge with 60 home runs maybe able to get 61 or more and then also a chance at the triple crown and then shohei ohtani being one of the better pitchers this year and an awesome batter. Another controversial finish for the books

[@saulgoodmans]

are they supposed to give ohtani mvp every year for being a two way player? he’s probably always gonna be a great hitter and pitcher but other players deserve it more than he does. he already got his mvp.

[@little_cheerio3812]

@@saulgoodmans not saying he has to win it but you ever hear of back to back mvp performances? just cause you won it once doesn’t mean you can’t win it again. look at bryce harper winning another mvp the same year i think juan soto deserved it. sometimes you outperform someone to the point where you deserve another mvp but judge might have blown it with his playoff performance

[@ramsaybushnaq516]

Miggy deserved it without a doubt. Trout deserved some consideration but it's not even a decent argument in my mind. Any time Albert pujols lost out on mvp to someone other than Barry bonds between 2001-2010 is a much better argument and video

[@noahmcdaniel4920]

LOL. It’s not even close who the more valuable player was: Trout. A full 35% better.

[@ramsaybushnaq516]

Based off what, just war

[@jessegarcia2064]

​@@ramsaybushnaq516their ops+ was identical. And trout was light-years better in baserunning and defense

[@codygurnick6405]

2011 nl mvp race Braun vs Kemp 2012 nl mvp race Posey vs Braun runners up had better seasons not by war for posey but Braun isn't the defender buster was then.

[@PHDFlopperr]

Steroids. I will never forgive Braun for stealing Kemp’s MVP man. He had a 39-40 season and barely lost because his competitor was juiced.

[@codygurnick6405]

@@PHDFlopperr agreed it was a robbery. Kemp had an awesome year. But Braun hitting 40 taters amd losing to Posey the next year was poetic justice

[@masonmedallis4546]

Miggy is the goat

[@radish1972]

no.

[@tomassantos87]

Unfortunately Trout is already better than what Miggy could have ever dreamed of

[@GrowYour-Own]

@@tomassantos87 Unfortunately Mike Trout has a lot more hitting to do if he even wants to be in the same conversation as Miggy. And he’s already 30.

[@jeffkiewiet806]

Miggy got robbed in 2010 because the rangers made the playoffs and the tigers didn’t

[@roygoodhand1301]

Again, you'd have FOUR STRAIGHT MVPS FROM THE SAME TEAM.

[@noahmcdaniel4920]

I don’t have a problem with Pudge winning the MVP. Yes the WAR difference is pretty huge (still less than Trout vs Miggy), but the value of having the best defensive catcher in the league be one of the best hitters in the league can’t be understated. A catcher’s value goes beyond their dWAR, simply because there’s so few catchers who can hit. If you can plug a great hitter into that spot on the field, it’s a boost to the rest of your lineup because it’s easier to find good hitters at other positions.

[@jameslabruyere5301]

Incorrect

[@onesome3249]

Catcher already has the big positional adjustment for WAR. If he's a DH, his WAR would be way lower. Also calling Ivan Rodriguez one of the best hitter in the league is a far fetch. He's the 25th best hitter in the AL, not one of the best imo. It's ridiculous that the man who had the best pitching season in the history of baseball in the middle of the steroid era did not win MVP.

[@noahmcdaniel4920]

@@onesome3249 he had the 19th best OPS while stealing 25 bags. Like I said it’s not just the defensive value, it’s the premium placed on hitting at that position. There were only TWO other qualifying catchers who had an OPS over .700 in the AL that year, 4 in the entire MLB. If you can fill that spot in the lineup with a great hitter it becomes much easier to fill out a good lineup. As for Pedro, it wasn’t the greatest season in history. There’s been several seasons of sub 2 ERA’s from SP’s. Striking out hitters is great and all, but wins aren’t really a meaningful pitching stat, I definitely wouldn’t call it the greatest pitching season ever just because he led the league in those stats. Personally, I would take a gold glove winning catcher with an ops over .900 and who stole 25 bags on my team over a SP with an ERA just over 2. WAR will say what it does but that’s my take. Give me the unicorn catcher.

[@onesome3249]

@@noahmcdaniel4920 He had the 25th best WRC+ in the AL, stop using stats that don't account for park factors. And his WAR was no where near that of Pedro (yes catchers get a lot of bonus WAR for being a catcher). So if you replaced him and Pedro with replacement players, the Redsox would suffer more due to Pedro being more valuable. And Pedro had a ridiculous 243 ERA+ in the middle of the steroid era and with a with a FIP of 1.39 (!!). The only season that's more impressive imo is Pedro's 2000 season.

[@Airplane299]

@@noahmcdaniel4920 Pedro definitely had 2 of the most impressive pitching seasons ever. He set single season records for ERA+, WHIP, and FIP---the most valuable pitching stats. Not to mention doing this in the middle of the steroid era. He didn't just "lead the league in those stats".

[@matthewlaird4009]

People will talk about Ohtani winning over Vlady like this, I think that had they chosen Vlady it would not have been a wrong choice by no means was he undeserving but I'm glad they gave it to Ohtani because he the most valuable an athlete could possibly be.

[@coopergreitz3054]

Cabbera deserved it more

[@Blank-jt3nj]

Easy formula: you win the Triple crown, you win MVP

[@alberodriguez3234]

It’s crazy that’s a discussion hahaha.

[@CAPDCJR]

Controversial would've been if Trout wins it......nothing controversial about the MVP to the guy who accomplished a triple crown and put his team in the playoffs

[@wallybagels4669]

MVP isn’t reliant on who has [your favorite war] here. Miggy won the triple crown that year. End of discussion

[@wallybagels4669]

@Lighthouse in the Storm 💀💀

[@nicksatwr4538]

@@wallybagels4669 no who had hives tear should win mvp Evey year as it most vaubble player with most war is most valuable

[@DJ.B930]

Another great video! I thought 2012 was the catalyst for introducing advanced stats into MVP discussions too. Then 2017 happened and Judge lost to Altuve because of batting average and strikeouts lol. Forget the scandal. Based on stats alone Judge should’ve won MVP that year, but again, was stuck holding ROY as a consolation prize. There’s also no way the Yankees even sniff the playoffs that year without him, in what was considered another rebuilding year. I’d be interested to see you do a video breaking that and a few other races down!

[@SportStorm23]

Thank you! I've made a video on the 2017 race already, but I'll definitely look at other races in the near future

[@DJ.B930]

@@SportStorm23 haha yeah I realized right after I commented 😅 my bad. Keep up the awesome work!

[@jiovannimuniz6122]

Triple crown.

[@YaboiKinny]

I’d agree I think Cabrera deserved it

[@MrKJ444]

Honestly Trout was lucky enough to get as many votes in 2012 as he did. WAR is one of the most flawed stats out there

[@markbaranyk9161]

Way to confusing

[@CarlosSanchez-lc1pn]

Correct. That nonsense is measured differently by different people. BA/HR/RBI + team was contender is easy and predictable. No bias.

[@patsfan138]

@@CarlosSanchez-lc1pn there are better hitting stats than ba and hr. rbi and wins are too dependent on your team. this isn’t basketball one man can’t carry a team. the mvp should not always have to come from a playoff team. thankfully the voters know this

[@Nickalzz]

Defense is extremely overrated in baseball especially in war. There’s a few positions that have higher defensive responsibilities but that’s it’s.

[@brianstafford5677]

Trout shouldn't have won the mvp in 2014 either. He hit 287. Victor Martinez hit 335 he only won bc of his name

[@roygoodhand1301]

But then you'd have FOUR STRAIGHT YEARS WHERE THE MVP CAME FROM THE SAME TEAM. I can understand why Trout won in 2014 over V-Mart: Martinez was with the Tigers, who had the MVP of the previous three seasons (Verlander in 2011 and Cabrera in both 2012 and 2013).

[@jessegarcia2064]

Lmao you can't be serious. Trout shouldve had his 3rd MVP in 2014. Was never a season in which a tigers player was actually better than him

[@avgGamer662]

Ivan Rodriguez >>> Pedro Martinez Catcher > Any Position Player Catcher >>>>>>>>>> A Pitcher

[@AndThatsBaseball]

Also Miggy owes the triple crown to Prince's protection

[@CarlosSanchez-lc1pn]

Wow. Did Prince hit for him too?

[@evanherynk5863]

Call me old school but I feel like pitchers should be precluded from winning MVP. In my eyes the CY Young is MVP for pitchers and MVP should be reserved for the best position player.

[@SamGon2456]

This MVP is not controversial at all. Mike Trout had a great season, no doubt, but a Triple Crown for a hitter goes beyond sabermetrics

[@smoceany9478]

im a super analytical guy, but miggy deserved it, historical things liike that should be acknowledged, even if another player was better

[@mpaulm]

A LOT of pitchers got robbed of Cy Young awards because of traditional stats. Most notably Dave Steib.

[@luscorpio3679]

A ton got robbed because for so long the Cy Young was "20 game winner on a playoff team"

[@fortynights1513]

If advanced metrics exist in 1983 and 1984, Dave Stieb probably wins two Cy Youngs as opposed to receiving no votes in 83, and few in 84. If you look at the pitchers they chose, they all were who was considered the best pitcher on one of the best teams in the league. In fairness, most of them were, but people didn’t understand the concept that a team can be successful and simultaneously not that great at pitching.

[@K37-h1z]

Kinda funny how a recovering addict/alcoholic drank to much caffeine. Must have been making a lot of meetings

[@firechase1603]

Im giving it to Miggy all day. Triple Crown desserves MVP.

[@petermad7476]

Do people still complain about this? Lol Miggy was better in basically every stat exept stolen bases stop crying

[@GoombaGuy1996]

It's not that Ivan Rodriguez didn't deserve MVP. It's that two writers screwed Pedro by keeping his name off their ballots. Because of the dumb "pitchers shouldn't win MVP" argument.

[@roygoodhand1301]

Really... Pedro got bit by the same thing that robbed Verlander of his fourth Cy Young in 2016? I bet it was those writers from Tampa again...

[@GuyrillaBraun]

I never understood how this was controversial. Miggy clearly MVP.

[@radish1972]

L

[@jmu76featuring61]

So w sabermetrics..only good defensive players can win?

[@BrooklynReaper]

this was one of the most intresting races in recent history wich brings me to my point if judge reaches 60 hrs this yr will he win the mvp even if sho out wars him?

[@abtwopoint0]

Hopefully not. Ohtani is killing it on both sides of the ball

[@ramsaybushnaq516]

I legitimately asked this exact same question in a different comment thread 2 days ago

[@unkledoda420]

Can't just keep giving it to Ohtani every year based on him having a higher WAR than everyone since he pitches and hits.

[@R.G.962]

@@MrLawyer711 he's pitching like a cy young candidate and slugging like an all star. He's doing both at once, how does that not make him the mvp?

[@lincolnmckay555]

Trout should've won no contest. They were pretty even in hitting but Trout was clearly better in every other aspect of the game. Cabrera would've still been remembered for what he did because he won the triple crown regardless of whether he won the MVP.

[@JoseMolina-yn6ku]

Stop, nearly 60 RBI difference, and a 20 extra base hit difference(including triples) The numbers aren't even close especially considering with all Trouts stolen bases he had barely more runs than Miggy.

[@markbaranyk9161]

@@JoseMolina-yn6ku bro isn’t happy that trout doesn’t have a ring or a playoff win

[@CarlosSanchez-lc1pn]

@@JoseMolina-yn6ku Fanboys. I wonder what stats they're looking at sometimes. Miggy had 46% more HRs, higher slugging, higher OPS, more hits, almost twice as many RBIs, his team made the playoffs, and somehow they were even. JFC.

[@patsfan138]

@@CarlosSanchez-lc1pn trout was a better hitter fielder and base runner. at least on par as a hitter anyways and much better at the other two

[@nicksatwr4538]

@@CarlosSanchez-lc1pn stats that acc matter like wrc plus

[@JeremyWashington1489]

Sabermetrics sucks. I hate that it’s so popular now.

[@allenelliott2114]

The 2000 NL MVP was the most egregious. Todd Helton was the best player (and it wasn't even close) yet finished 5th in the voting.

[@stevenscragg8610]

I could give 2 shits about WAR and OPS.

[@nicolaspecorelli5207]

I don’t wanna hear it. There is no debate. Miggy MVP

[@kingsleyodyssey4933]

wrong

[@frankanuzzi9740]

Cabrera had 60 more rbi 14 more homers and his ops was better come on

[@rogerj21]

Manny Ramirez was the real MVP on this one 9:06

[@petersonofleo11]

There is always something magical about catchers when they have an elite offensive season specially when they play golden glove level defense. It happened with Johnny Bench, Joe Mauer, Buster Posey and Pudge Rodriguez those times they won MVP. I think what affected Manny in 1999 was that even if he had his best offensive season of his career he was an atrocious defensive player. Pudge was elite on the bat in 1999 even if he was not even close to Manny but he was doing it while playing the position that is seen as the hardest to play in baseball.

[@roygoodhand1301]

SABERMETRICS HAS NO PLACE IN BASEBALL. Let's admit it: Sabermetrics is something the nerds came up with to keep them entertained during a baseball game . Baseball is NOT a nerdy sport. Nerds don't belong in baseball.

[@yagnn]

the people that run the sport and organizations use sabermetrics, just because you're too dumb to get it doesn't mean they dont belong in the sport lol

[@SP-ve1im]

WAR is designed to maximize 5 tools as some traditional MVP winners lacked some tools. Plus WAR is not consistent when it comes to its calculation as you can see 1W difference from fgraph to baseball reference. If WAR was the ultimate stat that determines the player's value, we don't even need to vote for MVP as we just need the spreadsheet. But that is not fun for fans and that's now how sports in general should be evaluated also. Trout is been the golden boy of WAR and he has been the best in baseball past decade but let's not diminish Miggy's peak as he was the bridge between Pujols to Trout for the best player in baseball.

[@nicksatwr4538]

No, Maggie should’ve won MVP in 2013 Mickey 2012 who is the worst year of Miguel Cabrera’s prime he was not good day. He was dreadful at third base cost in his team multiple games he was not and he struggled when did not when it comes to play discipline he was nowhere near his best year in 2012 he should’ve won the MVP in 2013 2014 Chowchilla 1 20 12, 20 15, 20 16, 20 18, 2019

[@iandejesusalamo8647]

It could happen this year with judge and yordan and I’m a huge judge fan he plays gold glove defense and is hr leader but yordan slugs higher and his ba is higher. Haven’t dove into they’re stats too much but they probably have close to the same WAR the only problem is yordan doesn’t play defense and both of them are on the two winniest teams in the Al. It’s gonna be fun to see what happens I hope judge wins if he can keep up his pace but I definitely don’t see Yordan slowing down anytime soon, this years AL MVP race is going to be interesting.

[@PaulieWalnuts1776]

Jacoby Ellsbury being robbed in 2011 is the most egregious MVP vote ever

[@tastefullys]

Nope. Verlander was magical

[@PaulieWalnuts1776]

@@tastefullys You’re just statistically and objectively wrong. Ellsbury’s WAR was 2 points higher than Verlander. Not to mention he was also a 30/30 player that year with 100+ runs scored and RBIs. It was literally one of the greatest seasons a player ever produced. Verlander’s season was good but not even in the same company.

[@CarlosSanchez-lc1pn]

Yeah that was some BS.

[@VACATETHE48]

Another way to look at value is through "Win Probability Added"... Though even this stat can be ambiguous. If we look at strict WPA... Trout led MLB with 5.3, Cabrera had 4.8. However, if it's divided by aLI... Which removes the context of the plate appearances, Cabrera wins 5.9 to 5.8. Additionally, if cWPA...Probability added to winning a championship.. is considered, Cabrera wins again with 4.4% compared to Trout's 3.6%. No matter which way its sliced, even through a modern lens, it's a very close decision.