The cruelty of Steve Jobs and Elon Musk | Walter Isaacson and Lex Fridman

[@LexClips]

Full podcast episode: kzbin.info/www/bejne/l3iyh2iIbLJkgNU Lex Fridman podcast channel: kzbin.info Guest bio: Walter Isaacson is an author of biographies on Elon Musk, Steve Jobs, Einstein, Benjamin Franklin, Leonardo da Vinci, and many others.

[@landomarkoba4944]

It's better if we let humans live their own lives and not draining their human energy cause if we harvest drain human energy via technology or satellite just so we can benefit from it making AI, does it profit humans when all we do is steal human energy harvesting it, can you think that it has bad effect on human health, we're is the kindness in our society, greed fame power control is all we think of, we need to stop stealing harvesting human energy just so we can make AI via Human Energy, what if someone drains their family's energy what would this rich politician would feel? That their own family has having bad health because someone is harvesting their family's human energy. Don't do unto others what you don't want others to do unto you. God doesn't steal nor take advantage on humans, God created us for us to live peacefully and not to steal or not to plan evil towards humanity. There is no love in this game, all you want is AI, if no humans, they cant make an AI anymore cause there is no source to get human energy, Can we leave humanity alone and not being rich by stealing human energy.

[@downkoadRumble]

90% of CEOs are psychopaths so are 100% of politicians, and 80% of all cops

[@thelastaustralian7583]

The Human Species is being dominated and controlled by subconscious forces ....

[@خالد_الشيباني]

You can be honest without being cruel. I think people conflate these two. Instead of saying "This is the stupidest idea I have ever seen". You could say "Although this idea is interesting I think it won't work for a such and such reason, could you come up with a new idea by tomorrow." It will have a better effect on the person and you will get better result. I think this phenomenon of romanticizing cruelty is due to nerds never learning how to talk to people and being empathetic. So they want to justify not caring about people's feeling.

[@pho3nix-]

There's also a sense of entitlement to it, not just lack of empathy once someone becomes a millionaire (even if they grew up poor). If you have money it's much easier to be brutally honest and an asshole, it wont affect you.

[@socrattt]

You can always be kind, but if you sugarcoat the truth, the other person may not realize how truly bad their idea is. Most people cannot handle the truth, no matter how kindly you say it. With them, you have to tell them the truth slowly, in stages, over a long period of time. Top performers can handle ugly truths. Kindness is also best of course, but if you want the truth to not hurt, then what you probably want is a lie. There is no simple path. Delivering hard truths is also a nuanced process. Some people are too harsh, and some are too soft. Some find a balance, but it takes time to adapt to each person and environment.

[@sandyx7381]

You're wrong. As the founder you need to give plain blunt feedback. Else team will take you for granted

[@Dggb2345]

Go watch kitchen nightmares with Gordon Ramsey. It’s kind to say “Are you out of your fucking mind? “ when someone serves undercooked chicken and then mumbles some pitiful excuse.

[@cmc2110]

Some people need a deeper push, being nice doesn’t push you over the fence. Hardship makes us greater, people need pain to excel

[@woolfel]

I've done my fair share of "hardcore" coding when I was younger and honestly it's BS. Coding late at night doesn't produce great code, it usually produces more crap than quality. When I was young, I bought into that myth and didn't know any better. Are there people that only need 2 hours of sleep a nite? Probably, but they aren't the norm. I've worked with plenty of software engineers that consider themselves hardcore, worked 12 hour days for months on end. The code the produced was an ugly pile and convoluted.

[@Cafeston]

I knew a person whose entourage boasted that he only needed to sleep 4 hours a night. He barely made it to his 60s. Is there a causality? I don't know. Did i stop buying into the superhuman bs? Definitely.

[@danpirau3969]

Your vision was probably lacking hardcore. Same with those hardcore software engineers.

[@wilsongo6133]

​@@danpirau3969yes, I think he missed the point. I got my friend that code well, produce the right outputs. But, he seem so angry at the point of rage with his code, and rewrite the entire thing. I think, another word for it is obsession with code. Not just the amount of hour you put in.

[@dannywithnuggets]

Just work harder and stop complaining

[@downkoadRumble]

90% of CEOs are psychopaths so are 100% of politicians, and 80% of all cops

[@dudermcdudeface3674]

The "mean gets things done" idea is a total myth. _Assertiveness_ gets things done, and anything past that is just self-aggrandizing noise and heat that people put up with because they're more responsible than the offender. Replace an aggressive leader with an equally capable assertive one, and every single thing you can measure (and quite a lot you can't) improves drastically in a short time. In Elon's case though, "equally capable" would be an impractically tall order, so people will put up with him for the sake of the mission. But don't pretend his flaws are a feature; they're not.

[@samuellourencojacob4358]

This is the absolute truth.

[@zarmindrow5831]

Truth. Now here's your cookie and back to bed you go.

[@dudermcdudeface3674]

@@zarmindrow5831 Nice, one of those "truth-telling is childish" comments. You sound like a very successful and well-adjusted person.

[@zarmindrow5831]

Hey, just giving you props for using assertiveness in a sentence. It must have been on mama's vocabulary list for the day. @@dudermcdudeface3674

[@dudermcdudeface3674]

@@SwampCritter-df4od A great example would be George Washington. People were just gobsmacked by his ability to accept criticism. And not after some ego-driven twilight struggle where he would finally concede, but as soon as the weight of evidence was there. Even if it sometimes made him look tactically capricious. Putting on my amateur shrink hat, I don't think Elon's resistance to criticism is so much ego-driven as an OCD thing. Like he may be so plugged in to an idea that it's hard to see outside of it for a while.

[@samsonlovesyou]

This cruelty isn't some strategic necessity. These are character flaws of unempathic and narcissistic men. The reality is that they're just nasty and don't care about the needs or feelings of others, so it's easy for them to be cruel. It's not just in the business world, either. Jobs was notoriously cruel to his children. Simply, he had sociopathic traits.

[@adelnoppert370]

I think its also much easier for these geniuses to be cruel because they're always the smartest, they don't get it wrong often and so their position and reputation is never at risk. So in that position compassion only has to come from pure values and not out of necessity like with everyone else, which says something about their values

[@catherinepeery9837]

His father was very cruel, especially to Elon, who was also bullied by peers. It's a reflection of his upbringing. But isn't necessarily his values, but he's not cruel to his children or family. Complicated person who has multiple problems because of that cruely in his early life.

[@samsonlovesyou]

@@catherinepeery9837 There's a genetic component to personality, too. May have inherited the sociopathic gene.

[@boundary2580]

@@catherinepeery9837he is actually quite cruel to his family, just not in as visceral a way as his father or Steve Jobs. He has 10 plus children and in no way is capable of being present in all their lives. Many of them despise him, and he denounced one of his children’s decision to come out at trans with ridicule and accusing colleges of grooming her. She changed her last name because she no longer wants to be associated with him. Musk’s cruelty is more of a lack of care and indifference to his family unless they do something he doesn’t like.

[@alanlight7740]

I was never a fan of Jobs precisely because of his reputation for cruelty - but was it necessary? Probably not to that extent, which is why I'm no fan, but I've seen wishy-washy leaders and I'd take Jobs over them any day. Leaders who try to be too nice cause far more pain in the long run. But if Apple had not succeeded some other company would have introduced personal computers within a few years. I consider Musk a much better leader. He acknowledges that his style is not for everybody and even says that it probably isn't a healthy or wise choice to work like he does. But it _is_ effective. Look at the competition: without Musk the U.S. space program would be in shambles, the electrification of transportation would still be thirty years away, we'd have much more serious risks from artificial intelligence, and many people whose lives have been saved by Tesla's excellent safety record would be dead. If the cost of that is a CEO who occasionally says some mean things, I'll take that any day.

[@Calidastas]

I’m fine with working hardcore if the pay is hardcore also. The problem I have with people like musk (and maybe jobs, idk) is that bosses that create this atmosphere are usually just trying to steal people’s time. The workers are almost always wage slaves with (at most) a few months cushion saved and the young ones frequently less than that. Maybe with a few year’s experience they have a full year cushion. So, they have limited bargaining power unless they want to go through the pain of changing jobs (and possibly moving, disrupting their lives, etc.). So yeah, of course the owners want an atmosphere of “hardcore”. In America we’ve also created the concept of the white collar worker - which is just code for we’re going to tell you you’re smart and privileged and then expect you to work what would be considered overtime for free. And then we’re going to lobby congress to increase immigration for coders etc to depress wages. Net net the wealth gap in America is insane because capital has won the war that labor was too stupid to even know they were fighting. People are being massively taken advantage of, all while being told they should be grateful and you should work like hell to make me rich because one day you might get a few shares yourself. If we had any sense we’d go full Genghis Kahn on the top 1/10th of 1%.

[@mattcargile]

It’s about being part of something bigger than yourself and building something that would change the world. Could you imagine being on that first iPod team or powershell team or windows 95?

[@Calidastas]

@@mattcargile idgaf about that unless I’m being paid. This “ra ra we’re changing the world” BS is just another management motivation game. Go watch an Enron Employee Meeting - they’re trumpeting on about changing the world while they’re busy defrauding their investors and employees. The problem with people is that they’re by in large good natured and gullible af. So stealing from all you doughy eyed fawns is like shooting fish in a barrel. Give me a good salary and a nice slice of equity and then I’ll think about joining your crusade. Everything but cash and equity is straight bs.

[@riley_oneill]

@@mattcargile The people on those teams were exceptionally well paid though. They were under a lot of pressure in a difficult environment but between pay and stock did very, very well. There are plenty of employers who expect hardcore work, 100% effort all times, bust ass, risk debilitating injuries on the job, humiliate their workers regularly, and then pay slightly more than minimum wage. For his faults, Steve Jobs worked with people who became exceptionally wealthy at Apple. Some people think that carries over to minimum wage level work when it does not.

[@r2com641]

@@mattcargilethe last thing I give shit about is “changing the world” the idiotic statement and desire of narcissists. I want proper pay for my professional work, I’m not going to work more than 40 hours a week for some asshole

[@mattcargile]

@@r2com641 different strokes. You can change the greater world or your own personal world or a child’s world.

[@rudivanrooijen7611]

Fact is people differ. To get people to reach their potential some need a pat on the back and others need a kick in the butt. The cruelty by people in charge often comes from an inability to deal with such a multitude of personalities.

[@siddharthkotwal7149]

Very true

[@anasabubakar4125]

Jobs desperately wants his slave employees to male him rich very fast. Job is not a kind person

[@mreese8764]

The stress response is predictable. You can make people predictable cogs in a machine by stressing them out. And while some will become useless the remaining ones require no intelligent leadership for their exploitation. Bad management is prevalent because it works with the people at hand.

[@wendyandrew3707]

Very good point.

[@wendyandrew3707]

Different businesses probably require different types of people.

[@jenniferhoffman5100]

The oligarchs aren’t subject to the same forces their employees are. Their Psychological safety comes from their social and financial padding. They have no clue how their serfs have to deal with societal structures that they themselves are not even aware of. The ultimate arrogance, and we’re still making gods of these men.

[@wintercame]

Bingo!

[@Avenus112]

Oligarchs are appointed to industry by government. The private sector appoints people itself. Therefore, thry are not oligarchs. Their employees are not serfs, they do not live in feudal empires, they are staff who lease their time at the equilibrium price of supply and demand. Your narrative has no relationship with reality and only portrays your tall poppy syndrome.

[@jamesfrancese6091]

@@Avenus112 They were using a metaphor

[@besmart2350]

I think they insecure. Have an arrogant facade but deep inside very insecure, insecure to lose everything or be mocked

[@ProfShibe]

dude acting like they're under tyrannical rule or something lmao if you don't like a job you quit, especially for programming, you'll have infinite openings everywhere. It's literally that simple and you'll get re-hired immediately.

[@10handz]

This is such an interesting segment. Touches on the different "camps" that are at the core of every entrepreneurial business I've been part of, across ages, different types of leaders, Just wish they made more conversation about the difference between hardcore/honesty/urgency vs. real cruelty and crossing personal/emotional line

[@geemolegeorge3815]

Its so interesting that you mentioned the nuances of such behaviour 👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼

[@MrApw2011]

As an entrepreneur, I find that the young engineers I hire do this automatically. They are all uniformed, wanting to learn, willing to put in massive amounts of work but they are also honing their talents. I have experienced engineers who are skilled, competent, caring, produce excellence and help guide the younger guys but won't be playing video games after work hours. I don't see why a business leader would focus so intently on one or the other. I can't get my young guys to go home in a reasonable time and I can't keep my older guys focused unless there's a crisis so it seems like this idea is just about ego and thinking you're making a difference when all you're really doing is firing experience or ambition.

[@abcd123906]

A version of hard core (which I think strikes a reasonable balance between working hard and having a life outside of work, and which, admittedly, is probably still not as hard core as what the Elon Musks of the world would find satisfactory) is the idea that: you work only during normal work hours, *but* you work at an extremely high intensity *during* those hours and are highly efficient. You also don't waste time, don't goof off, and you self-impose a sense of urgency that whatever work must get done has to be done during those hours. It's surprising *how much* you can get done in an 8 hour day if you are *actually* working all of those 8 hours. *8 real hours* of work is actually a lot of work!!

[@oliviaglass3843]

Unless they force you to these unproductive endless meetings….😂

[@abcd123906]

@@oliviaglass3843 100% agree. Actually, I think your addition to what I've said is a necessary one, because 8 hours interrupted by even 1-2 hrs (let alone 3 or more) of unproductive meeting time also makes the "work hard, play hard" "pact" impossible.

[@Kratoseum]

As long as the "hardcore" investment of the employees in the company is mutual and so given back by the company in "hardcore" pay and or shares, thats absolutely fine.

[@mikebarnacle1469]

Ya funny how everyone forgets to mention the comp side of it.

[@Brandon-youtube]

@@mikebarnacle1469 good comp shouldn't enable cruelty. You can be hardcore and direct without being cruel.

[@gregmucha1402]

Ross Perot, when he was running EDS, sent special forces friends into Iran to get HIS PEOPLE out. Whenever one of his branches was not producing, he walked in and fired the managers and promoted their subordinates. He did this until the branch produced or he closed the branch. He didn't fuck around with allowing the fox to guard the henhouse. If you're a manager, you are expected to serve the organization with everything you have. If you don't have it, you don't have a job for very long at all. That is HOW middle managers SHOULD be treated, not line employees.

[@ericpmoss]

Too many people emphasize the brutality in being 'brutally honest'. If an idea is bad, just say "this won't work for these reasons". If the employee only comes up with bad ideas, fire them for not having good ideas, but being demeaning is just awful.

[@iamrysheem]

Nobody only comes up with bad ideas. The problem is what is demeaning to you may not be demeaning to someone else. If someone tells me thats the dumbest idea i’ve ever heard. I might just have said something dumb. Or more likely its hyperbole. I can deal with both. Most can’t. But if your speaking styles is talking like that the problem is not that you demean people. Your problem is going to be how to find people who can handle it. And probably give it back.

[@elisabethrasmussen9232]

I read the Steve Jobs biography by Walter Isaacson years ago and loved all the in depth fine details

[@midknight1968]

Richard Branson is a successful ceo and he did not hurt workers 😢 we need to teach empathy to people that are on the spectrum

[@bobpritham2660]

Yes. That's where Virgin Galactic comes in. 😂

[@midknight1968]

@@bobpritham2660 he has dyslexia not autism

[@masterq2.033]

He was a bootlegger , in other words, a thief. Being a thief harms people.

[@midknight1968]

@@masterq2.033 please show me proof of it and when? 50 years ago?

[@midknight1968]

I know, I have it too sadly , I was refacing to others that harm people for the lack of empathy

[@messiGrd]

It's Great to be hardcore when you're the owner of the company. Otherwise you will burn out at 27 or 28.

[@anon2034]

This.

[@gavinmc5285]

great to be hardcore at 19 - 22 then

[@TRAVIESO_NA]

Well said. My dad worked in finance he burnt out by my age 36 and he retired. But he had insane portfolio and assets. He died by 47 stress over his career really messed him up for the rest of his life. His heart ❤️ was shot

[@MissMyMusicAddiction]

false. people who aren't eternally driven will.

[@AnthonySNY]

show me hardcore wages and I'll be hardcore. that's the problem with 40 yr old men. they want to actually get paid.

[@bgeigleg2508]

I think there is value to being both hard core and having a work life balance. For instance, some of the older more experienced programmers that can knock out code in 1/4th the time of a younger, less experienced programmer may not want to work 80 hours a week, but can get twice as much done in 40 hours than a less experienced programmer could get done in 80 hours. So, I think it's really a case by case situation. Plus, employees may be hardcore and work 80 hours a week for a while, but they will eventually hit a wall. And then, you have to find yourself another employee that isn't as experienced...

[@SamKingLion]

Experience is over rated. By an large, the younger programmers are a LOT faster than the older ones. Of course there are some exceptions, so don’t hold on to the one smarter guy you know and try to make a case for it!

[@mattcargile]

The best is hardcore and experienced. Top tier tech companies want both.

[@CistiC0987]

It's not just about code written fast but maintainable. What's the use of code written fast which nobody else wants to touch

[@CistiC0987]

Why the best would be the top tier? Somebody can be as happy working in 20 employee company working on stuff that he/she loves. It's not just about top tier FAANG. There is also a world outside of that, you know ...

[@mattcargile]

Being hardcore is in opposition to work life balance. If you have work life balance then you aren’t hard core. It all depends on how you define success. At the hard core level, success would be defined by top tier companies with high salaries and high impact on the world.

[@PelosiStockPortfolio]

I worked hardcore in tech for about 5 years in my 20s after I finished college, but I actually was really into it. I loved what I was working on. I started tapering off my work load around 27, the early advancement and experience gained allowed me to easily coast in my 30s, and I'm still coasting in my early 40s at director level. I have no further room to grow career wise, as VP is the next step up and I don't see myself getting there by coasting along. But that is fine with me, I make a shit ton more money than I ever expected I would, and I have had the time and financial resources to really enjoy my life, including those 5 years when I enjoyed being hardcore

[@mdarrenu]

You must have worked very hard and been pretty intelligent and obviously had good health in your younger years. Not many people get all those three. I had health problems and also was not very focused. FInally ended up doing okay in my late 40s and 50s - not as well as you I assume. I never could have been hardcore for 5 years - maybe when I was 16 to 19 before I started having problems with working myself to death.

[@Nerfunkal]

Having only experienced blue collar manufacturing hourly work coasting to me means getting fired for being a piss poor worker, there's only grind for nominal benefits, we're not in control of anything except the machine we're running, and it better be running or you're out of a job.

[@PelosiStockPortfolio]

@@Nerfunkal My definition of coasting is getting everything done at a professional level, which for me is averaging about 50 hours of work per week (there is no over time pay). There is a never ending list of things at work I could spend more of my time on, but I draw the line at around 50 hours. Averaging about 60 hours per week is my definition of "above and beyond". You get noticed, excellent reviews, excellent raises. About 80+ hours a week is my definition of hardcore. If you can consistently put in that many hours while sustaining a high quality of work, you will be given increasingly higher levels of responsibility to the point where your choices impact the entire company. That is what I did for around 5 years until I scaled back my hours so I could have a life again

[@Brandon-youtube]

27 now, just did my 5 hard core years, this gives me some hope as I don't think I have many more I can do. Would like something more comfortable yet impactful.

[@PelosiStockPortfolio]

@@Brandon-youtubeCongrats. One mistake I made after those 5 hardcore years was switching companies too soon. I should have stayed a little longer at the company I had built up momentum with, before switching. Basically you want to ride the momentum for as long as they are giving you increasing levels of responsibility, as that will be easier to do with a company that you have momentum with. Use that extra time to do a long job search, wait for the ideal position you want to apply to

[@lancejones4636]

When you are passionate about something - truly passionate - hardcore comes easy. The hours fly by. It is rewarding and tiring. Many people never experience this. I feel lucky to feel this way. I’m hardcore and 56 years old.

[@ReviewsChannel-e4r]

It's the people around hard core alphas that grow weary of them. That's putting it mildly.

[@alanlight7740]

I don't think it's healthy for most people or for society for the majority of people to be hardcore - except perhaps in their teens and twenties. But for a few people it's what makes them feel alive, and society benefits greatly from it. We would be wise to harness that energy rather than waste it.

[@gregmucha1402]

@@alanlight7740 That's why the Army says, "Be all that you can be." Life isn't for living; it's for fighting and for wars. Wars fought by children at the direction of older adults who lack empathy and reason.

[@AnthonySNY]

most people want their income to be hardcore, and the problem is employers don't want to pay hardcore wages for hardcore effort. they want to pay casual wages for hardcore effort. give me 200k a year, and I'll be hardcore. "passionate" usually translates to an acceptance for being underpaid, which most people are not willing to accept (and rightfully so).

[@crazydrummer549]

i've said this forever. some other comment mentions people burning out by 27, 28...like are you kidding me? i personally plan on working as long as they let me stay in industry

[@ronobrien7187]

I work in the construction industry. It can be high pressure intensity when there is lives and large sums of money at stake. Things get heated when you have a group of earnest, talented, motivated people working together in those situations. The mature, rational adults in the group understand that it's just the job. Most typically you go out together for a couple of beers, as friends and work out the details of the day's events to come to better solutions. Through that process we all gain more respect for one another. Working in a no pressure, sensitivity-based environment, at best affords no opportunity for improvement and at worst fosters resentments which are never resolved, which leads to decay of morale.

[@martinregular5003]

I also work in the construction industry (structural engineer) is not remotely brutal as of what happened with Twitter, Tesla and also back in the day with Apple. That said, hard work is expected but also the fact that people got families and mouths to feed. We all like stories about CEO/Leaders breaking barriers and firing people so as long it does not happen to me.

[@gregmucha1402]

Swinging hammers is NOT the same as sitting in a cubicle and stressing your nervous system and body for hours on end over decades. Sorry. You can learn engineering once and you're an engineer for life. You can learn coding and be a software engineer until you take a 90 day vacation and come back to no job. Study 5-10 years, be an engineer for life. Or, study for 20 years to be a software engineer for a career lasting five to 10. Software engineers are on the bleeding edge of a place no one wants to be, but everyone eventually will be: a world moving too fast to accommodate the human body and natural evolution. I'm not saying construction isn't critically important, but I am suggesting that moving one's body as nature intended in order to build physical things that other people can see and admire with their own eyes is a far cry from flipping bits on a hard drive located in a foreign country from an apartment with no air conditioning or decent lighting.

[@markciesluk8750]

​@@gregmucha1402if you thinking construction workers are using their bodies "as nature intended" I think you might want to actually talk to one about what decades of heavy repetitive labour does to you. It's a grinding nightmare that chews people up and discards them no matter how dedicated they might be

[@gregmucha1402]

@@markciesluk8750 Maybe you're right. Manual pneumatic gravel compressors and jackhammers don't look too healthy. Neither does sitting in a hot cab of a Cat all day. Yeah. I should shut the f*k up and cash my checks. A life of dignity is just plain hard on everybody these days.

[@ercanarisoy]

Jack Dorsey did the right thing, I think, he left the scene at the right moment. Power can poison anyone with or without a difficult childhood behind them 💰🙃

[@aemagnuson]

What? Elon saved the world.

[@X001-1]

@@aemagnusonnice joke 😐

[@robertacheson5976]

@@X001-1oh no your right, it was better when Twitter was taking their marching orders from our malignant intelligence community, who are basic the gestapo for the weathly. Was it better back then or was that not happening. Do you not believe the words that come out of their own mouths in the hundreds of emails that were sent to our big tech firms and that Elon was the only one with the balls enough to release.

[@indianmonk3380]

​@@aemagnusonhuh! When did this happen?

[@Dggb2345]

Balderdash

[@johnelectric933]

Being mean protects you from criticism. These people are so full of themselves.

[@ivanrocks2227]

it really does not?

[@arricammarques1955]

Exercise the right to walk way from such abuse.

[@ProfShibe]

what? all it does is get you targeted for being a mean person lol.

[@gesilsampaioamarantesegund6692]

And intrinsecally insecure.

[@ivanrocks2227]

@@gesilsampaioamarantesegund6692 you are intrinsically illiterate

[@jso19801980]

its strange to ask employees to kill themselves working for a company they have no stake or shares in

[@alanlight7740]

That's probably why stock options are common in the tech industry.

[@sdzielinski]

Sociopaths and psychopaths have no problem asking this of their employees.

[@AarmOZ84]

I agree. At least give them an awesome share holding in the company they work 90 hours a week at.

[@wendyandrew3707]

And have taken no e of the risks to develop...

[@AnonYmous-be9vw]

Warning for the "up at 2 am hardcore* types out there: you will burn out, and there's almost never a job out there that's worth more than your time with your friends and family, basic necessities aside. Working at Twitter would've sounded fun until I was about 25.

[@dannyarcher6370]

Think I'm gonna have to watch the whole pod. This is an amazing clip.

[@celesasheldon6931]

Paperclip !

[@eftekhar2006]

He said something illuminating. He said Erroll Musk, Elon's father verbally abused him. Steve Jobs was adopted, his syrian father didn't or couldn't take care of him. Btw, Jeff Bazos was adopted too. His real father was Tedd Jorgensen. Jeff's father didn't even know his son's adopted last name. Although three is such a small number as to be meaningless statistically, it brings out an interesting issue. In prople like Musk, Jobs or others like them, do we see a person with specially strong drive for success or we see cases of a wounded child growing up with a seething desire to prove his father wrong ? To prove he was worth sticking around for.

[@avicennitegh1377]

It's classic that these fathers have a lot to answer for. Then the cruelty is showered on others who aren't even the same people the son is at war with.

[@grownmantravels]

I read Walter’s book on SJ during my honeymoon…..incredible biography….I’m now divorced

[@mr.goldenproductions_0143]

Lol maybe you should have been more of a dick to your wife

[@downkoadRumble]

90% of CEOs are psychopaths so are 100% of politicians, and 80% of all cops

[@sitanshurai892]

😂😂

[@janelleg597]

Jez

[@Star-hg1kt]

🤣🤣🤣

[@mitchellblair3935]

I wonder if CEOs were only guaranteed the median salary at their company instead of millions in stock options if they would work hardcore…

[@MindfulPersonalGrowthop]

Oh they’d turn into immediate slackers and get confused at the mere thought of ‘hardcore’

[@Wittgenstein.]

Believe it or not but CEOs usually get paid that much because shareholders find them to create more value than any moron earning median salary

[@magenta_magenta220]

They became ceos in the the first place from nothing because they worked hardcore

[@kolob4697]

Being direct and honest with constructive feedback doesn't mean you have to be cruel, and insulting.

[@FromTheHeart2]

You measure great outstanding leaders to exactly that: the humanity in them. To be able to obtain outstanding results without the need to humiliate. I don't know of any at the level of global companies. But may be one day Humanity will be able to produce such individuals.

[@ayoutubechannelname]

The people able to produce outstanding results without being humiliated are exceptionally self-humbling. The people who are exceptionally self-humbling are the most likely to accept humiliation without retaliating or complaining. The self-humbling are more likely to accept less pay, less benefits, and less work-life balance whilst still believing they are in the right place. This is perfect for a leader who likes to “humble” their employees.

[@tadmajka1998]

Putting people down, and calling them stupid is a form of bullying and mental abuse and should NEVER BE TOLERATED in advanced, civilized society. Everyone needs to be treated with dignity and respect.

[@mohdtalha8558]

What if they are not competent and don't do their job.

[@lucasmembrane4763]

I worked for a company whose president read the "All In" book. He wrote up a "Covenant" declaring that he was "All-In" and asked all the employees (about 5,000) to sign it. Very many did. For a short while thereafter he focused intensely on getting the stock price up, so that the Board of Directors could get rich by selling it. He failed at that, and within months concentrated on negotiating a deluxe severance agreement for himself. He retired on those millions, was replaced by a new CEO, a veteran of the buy, loot and trash industry, and the new CEO started implementing changes designed to get all the employees who knew his game to quit -- and the company wound up in the dumpster. "All In" is just one of the many slogans propagated to persuade workers to ruin their own lives for a company that sees no obligation to not turn around and ruin the employees lives even worse. Good CEO's don't think that 'mores' is the plural of 'more.'

[@stayhungry1503]

the thing that bothers me with musk is that he doesnt give enough credit to people below/around him. i mean has he accomplished a lot? yes. did he work hard? yes. is he a technical engineer who actually understands how cars and rockets work? yes. but when interviewers ask or tell him "YOU did this or that" i have never heard him say something like "well it wasnt just me, all these amazing people at my companies are to thank for it" or something along those lines. i have never heard him say that ever.

[@sakalava47]

There are great leaders who get lots of motivation and sacrifice from employees and followers. A lot of football coaches can do it while maintaining accountability and making tough cuts when necessary.

[@downkoadRumble]

90% of CEOs are psychopaths so are 100% of politicians, and 80% of all cops

[@iamthemoss]

Why do so many successful people have to be terrible, I've seen it over my 40 year career.

[@TheDNAGroup]

Because the people in your organization...are people-- will lie, steal, cheat, half-ass, cast doubt in an INSTANT!...like the majority of human beings... So you gotta put the foot in the ass if you prefer to be effective as opposed to liked.

[@stayhungry1503]

because you dont become successful without taking advantage of other people

[@symtexxd]

@@stayhungry1503This is one of the facts of life that I learned late. I’m 40 btw. I been a good boy all my life which is why I’m poor.

[@SlipMahoneyBowery]

He’s trying to back out for turning CNN into politics not news.

[@digitalsamurai42]

The owners of CNN did that, he's just a chess piece 1

[@batmanrobin6848]

Yeah I’m not sure he was responsible for that.

[@SlipMahoneyBowery]

@@batmanrobin6848 he was SOLELY responsible. He’s back pedaling because he was instrumental in RUINING media.

[@SlipMahoneyBowery]

@@digitalsamurai42 they owners were the vehicle for sure, but he drove that vehicle. It was all about ratings, not honest news.

[@batmanrobin6848]

​@@SlipMahoneyBowery News Article from 2001: Several Republicans have contended that CNN shows a liberal bias in its coverage, perhaps a vestige of network founder Ted Turner's politics. Fox News Channel chief executive Roger Ailes says so repeatedly, and dubbed CNN the "Clinton News Network" during the last presidential administration. New CNN chairman Walter Isaacson, aware that his network is viewed warily by many Republicans, traveled to Washington for a series of meetings with GOP leaders. While Isaacson's representatives characterized the meetings last week as primarily meet-and-greet sessions, they said he wants to hear directly any criticisms that CNN is unfair to Republican or conservative views. CNN has been knocked on its heels over the past year by the growing strength of competitor Fox News Channel, a network with greater appeal to many conservative viewers.

[@georgegrubbs2966]

I disagree with Walter. You do not have to be a mean, cruel tyrant to accomplish things. If you descend to that low level of humanity, whatever you produce is not worth it. If you cannot accomplish something without being cruel, you need to do something else.

[@Mackcolak-xf5bk]

I guess clarification and several examples from him are needed. Different people understand different meanings of 'cruel' and 'hardcore'. Could be 'We've got to push afterhours this project for one month' or 'I'll fire you if you don't do this stupid thing because I want it'.

[@emmaoudekempers2]

This clip has been ripped totally out of its context, if youre interested in the topic in general i really recommenend to watch the full podcast! He has biographed maaany people and describes their story with admiration for their authenticity and is just fascinated by what he observes, he's not preaching or trying to tell people what to do he covers a wide variety of stories actually

[@lancejones4636]

Yes, banks and utility companies need employees too. So does government.

[@pratik92]

I disagree too. I find the whole one person leading the charge quite grating. On the surface it may seem like they’re accomplishing things because of their tyrant nature. But true progress has happened when a large number of people have come together and co-ordinated on building things. The moon landing didn’t need a tyrant.

[@georgegrubbs2966]

@@pratik92 I agree, but I also acknowledge that a single leader, a visionary, or exeptional scientist, or any such person in other fields, are necessary for breakthoughs and accomplishing projects that were once thought impossible. What I do not believe is that these people have to be tyrants, belittle employees, theaten employees, or act other than a decest human being.

[@ch3burashka]

"If he wasn't cruel, we might not have the Mac." This may be true, may not be - we will never know. The question that we can get an answer to is, "was the creation of the Mac worth the suffering?" And I'm not even talking about a binary option, a universe with Mac or one without. It just means the Mac (or something similar) would have come anyway, 5 years later.

[@RBLevin]

Maybe we'd have something better.

[@prodantech]

Brutal honesty is different than being mean. There are other ways of accurately describing something without using the word “stupid”.

[@alanlight7740]

Some people will never get the message unless it's really driven home, while others need nothing more than a questioning glance. Also, some things really are incredibly stupid.

[@prodantech]

@@alanlight7740 Resorting to being mean to accomplish what you are saying is just a gap or weakness in a person’s communication skills. In a professional setting, we shouldn’t make things personal. Additionally, people perform at their best when they feel appreciated and valued. So, as a leader, we’d be shooting our selves in the foot if we’re mean to our employees and devalue them. Boosting productivity with healthy motivations is difficult and takes a lot of effort, but you get so much more out of it. My directs work so hard for me because of this and they produce fantastic work. I give direct and clear feedback which they gladly accept and they improve on it. The end result is pretty amazing from a productivity and product quality standpoint.

[@FlaviusMaximus1967]

Wealth makes people feel that they are superior to others. They feel comfortable treating people, that they feel are inferior, like dirt.

[@plebevolante]

I disagree, I think wealth simply enables people to show their true colors, most people are only considerate because they're in no position to act otherwise without repercussion. I've been around very rich people and I've experienced all kinds of interactions with them, from the totally indifferent "you're just a piece of furniture to me" attitude, to the mean and entitled but also the incredibly kind and humane, with everything inbetween, wealth is not a personality trait, be it acquired or inherited. At least, this is my experience.

[@phaedrussmith1949]

We're also taught to believe that, thus we take on our respective rolls in society.

[@xDevoneyx]

@3:00 Brutal honesty and being nice are not mutually exclusive. I would say they aren't even related. One can be non-judgemental, honest, respectful, thoughtful, sensitive, righteous while still having effective communication without the need to sugar coat. I think the whole point is recognizing the kind of person you are dealing with. Some people need to be shouted at for them to hear what you say, for them to stop rattling and pay a moment attention to what you say. Because some people only pay attention being under a certain level of threat. Other people, mostly those who are intrinsically motivated, thruth speakers with high self respect and self reflectance would tell you there is no need in being rude or there is no need to shout in order to have effective communication with them, on the contrary. And in this blend of people with lots of personalities within your company finding that effective tone of communication, especially speaking to a group, can be quiet challenging for sure: You want to make sure people have their focus not too much on themselves, and no too much on the company either (or they might burn out). Like Walter says: which kind of work style fits your life at the moment? Those who would say: I'm all in, while they mentally are not, would then have the focus too much on themselves I would say. Very intersting fragment. Thanks.

[@arnavrawat9864]

I believe it's the CEO personality phenomena. People like that are disagreeable, machiavellian by nature. They are brutal not because it's needed, but because they feel like it, they want that one sided selfish operation. It's personality based.

[@alanlight7740]

For some the brutality is gratuitous, but sometimes brutality is required. And sometimes, to get the brutality when it's required, it's necessary to put up with people who are a bit too gratuitous with it. Because the nice guys can't just turn on the brutality when it's needed.

[@arnavrawat9864]

@@alanlight7740 Sure. That's the way it's done usually. Doesn't mean its the only way that can exist, but it is a way.

[@trinidad2450]

There's absolutely no excuse for cruelty, never, no. No one has a right. Don't try to make excuses for cruelty.

[@angela1984a]

I guess I agree. But how about letting an employee go? Is that cruel? If it isn't - then why isn't it cruel?

[@trinidad2450]

@@angela1984a When you don’t give the context, then I can’t say firing or letting go an employee is cruel. You don’t explain if an employer was unfair, rude, or spiteful. What if the employee was lazy, always late for work, left early, made many mistakes that endangered other employees and cost the employer a lot of money? See, I’m giving more context. So, then the employer can be called “cruel” for letting an employee go, or justified.

[@angela1984a]

@@trinidad2450 If the employer wasn't unfair, rude, or spiteful and if the employee wasn't lazy, was never late for work, never left early, never made any mistakes that endangered other employees and never cost the employer a lot of money. How about then? Would it be cruel to let that employee go? If it isn't - then why isn't it cruel?

[@trinidad2450]

@@angela1984a Is that what happened to you?

[@angela1984a]

@@trinidad2450 No. But it has most likely happened to hundreds of thousands of other folks during the last ~15 years. So again: If the employer wasn't unfair, rude, or spiteful and if the employee wasn't lazy, was never late for work, never left early, never made any mistakes that endangered other employees and never cost the employer a lot of money. How about then? Would it be cruel to let that employee go? If it isn't - then why isn't it cruel?

[@xpat73]

I own a business and I do NOT expect my employees to be "ALL IN." I expect them to be on time and do a good job. If something needs to be done at 10pm or on Christmas Eve - I DO IT. Why? Because I am the owner. This bs hustle culture crap has to stop.

[@mhxxd4]

And this is why you're not creating a company like Apple

[@trevorprice2490]

@@mhxxd4 Not every company should or needs to be like Apple

[@mhxxd4]

@@trevorprice2490 the point was that it produces exceptional results

[@trevorprice2490]

@@mhxxd4 meh, unlikely. there's major survivorship bias going on in this whole discussion. how many promising companies failed because their founders treated the people like dirt?

[@mhxxd4]

@@trevorprice2490 if done right it works

[@anotherjoshua]

how was musk a working class kid? he was born into money. and re: twitter. the question isn't polite vs hardcore. it's factual vs hateful.

[@stevejarosz8136]

I’m glad somebody caught that. Life is just a circus.

[@user-ct8cj9xo6s]

Do you want to be "hardcore" and make a billionaire more money by reducing your personal life quality for the same pay? This mindset is sooo weird to follow, especially having in mind how many stories there are in the tech industry of people who busted their asses and were taken advantage of and laid off. Being hardcore means basically " I have nothing extra to offer to you , but you can stroke your ego by taking pride in working under bad conditions, that most people wouldn't agree to "

[@firstlast1947]

Yeah, it means you work really hard so someone else can become a billionaire. Why would anyone care if someone else becomes a billionaire? You make me a billionaire and I promise I'll work hardcore. LOL

[@Alex-mj5dv]

1:35 Musk may be like that but not from being ‘working class’.. the Musk family of South Africa / North America are generationally very, very wealthy.

[@smartbart80]

I don’t think Elon was ever a working class kid, right? Not that it matters but just to be fair to the analogy.

[@Pezzerd]

I think was in reference to Jobs

[@minneminsken4995]

Elon Musk is a son of a millionaire. So are Bill Gates and Mark Zuckerberg. The only one that came out of the blue is Jan Com, the inventor of WhatApp. He had done it all by himself. He is the real genius among all this shit.

[@rmarysimmons8661]

Mai Musk was a single mom when she fled South Africa to Canada to get away from abusive ex.

[@JamesWitte]

He was talking about Jobs. Elon had a fucked working class childhood. It was South Africa not the west.

[@stayhungry1503]

@@JamesWitte his dad was well off, he owned at least 3 expensive sports cars.

[@godsentjesustosetusallfree9859]

We live one life. We aren't here forever. Why spread misery when you're going to die like everyone else?

[@dashphonemail]

Because we have to colonize Mars! For some reason...don't ask me to explain why...But if you're a serious billionaire person, it's self-evident that humans need to be living on Mars, the rock with no oxygen in its atmosphere and an average temperature of -100° F

[@RFK_71]

I run from companies where the style of management is yelling and arrogant attitudes. I like being in a team environment where we have a common goal moving in the same direction - with respect. There is a time for reviewing the worker, and at that time, one can bring up what you feel is important to the company’s goals. Companies are not the military, they are corporations. They (employees) can go elsewhere for work.

[@QED_]

Then they should go elsewhere for work . . .

[@jamesdellaneve9005]

When we do a new vehicle introduction in aerospace, you have 7,000 people working crazy hours for the last 2 years. I did one and never wanted to do another one. The Program managers live a block away from he plant because they are needed 24 X 7.

[@thesilversurfer7136]

Communication amongst people in general is deplorable. People are silent when they should speak up, people are rude and obnoxious when they should moderate their tone and language, people are self centered in a conversation when they should be listening. Steve Jobs and Elon Musk would never be tolerated if they had no money. With great privilege comes great responsibility. We never see these men stand tall and through their actions gain respect. No. They choose to rule by intimidation and fear. Autocrats who live in a bubble and everyone else is dirt under their feet. Yet it those who have no compassion or respect for anything that have created the mess humanity is in right now. Selfish, greedy people who control all of the world’s wealth and still that is not enough for them as they stand by indifferently watching the world burn.

[@vaunniethayer1484]

Great post, I couldn’t agree more.

[@firstlast1947]

Musk wants people to have more children, but if you work 80 hours a week, where is the time to raise those children? Musk himself has a lot of kids, but how often does he speak to them, 5 minutes per month? How do you work "hardcore", which means 80 hours a week, and at the same time have lots of kids?

[@jonhelguson]

You have a mother of said child who is the primary caretaker and then dad spends quality time and takes them around with him to work. Dads aren’t created to play doll house.

[@starzgarden5553]

He wants people who don’t work for him to have more children

[@donelmore2540]

I like the concept that people are packages, not totally one thing or the other. A female commentator (don’t remember who) said that she thought Kanye West suffered from mental illness, but that his genius and creativity came out of his mental illness. That comment made me stop and ponder.

[@fillhixx]

All generalizations are wrong. Not all ‘direct’ people are cruel. But the greatest compliment I ever heard as a business owner was overhearing one of my staff telling a new hire “great guy to work for, but don’t piss him off.”

[@carlharmeling512]

Cruelty is the taking of pleasure in the suffering of others. Making others suffer is not necessarily cruel. Suffering is sometimes unavoidable.

[@S.D.323]

Sounds more like sadism I'm pretty sure the word cruelty more refers to actions

[@carlharmeling512]

@@S.D.323 Cruelty refers to actual pleasure taken in the suffering of others. Sadism is action oriented. But that’s just me and my way of looking at things.

[@КурочкаКрашена]

@@carlharmeling512 Words have definitions - we don't need people to invent their own definitions. 1: disposed to inflict pain or suffering : devoid of humane feelings 2a: causing or conducive to injury, grief, or pain 2b: unrelieved by leniency

[@carlharmeling512]

@@КурочкаКрашена A surgeon knowingly inflicts pain and suffering upon patients whose lives he is trying to save. But he takes no pleasure in doing this and therefore is not considered cruel. Your statement that we don’t need people to invent their own definitions is ridiculous. People invented all definitions. Some make sense and some don’t. What’s your problem with my definition of the word cruelty?

[@КурочкаКрашена]

@@carlharmeling512 Take it up with Merriam Webster! It's important that we when we talk about something that we have some sort of common frame of reference. If my definition of sunny is raining then we're not going to have a meaningful conversation about the weather. What this ultimately comes down to is that facts (in this case definitions) matter. We seem to live in a society in which people's opinions and feelings are weighed equally to fact. They're not equal.

[@jasmine333-h6i]

as a former software engineer who used to work 60-80 hours/week for a number of years and got burned out but loved to code, this is bs. not too long ago, there was study showing that software engineers like myself were more prone to suffer severe health problems. the french are some of the greatest engineers and their culture understands how to balance work and play and still excel. the question that was asked was, did he have to be so cruel? which implies “how” he spoke to people, not what were his decisions or making difficult decisions. i read isaacson’s biography on jobs, and first i have to say that i think jobs was the greatest innovator in our time. not musk. nor gates. jobs did not have to be cruel. he was emotionally and verbally abusive. there are different types of leaders. those whom i respect the most can make difficult decisions and deliver them without cruelty and still inspire people to do their best work. many of his key engineers suffered from health problems, as did he, when he was running both apple and pixar and was diagnosed with cancer. american culture of working people to death is backwards, outdated, and unintelligent.

[@alexb3617]

well i guess temporarily becoming hardcore is ok. but has to be temporary. if its more than 2 years, then you burn yourself up

[@secretgoldfish]

It can go too far either way.......but the results of 'over-encouragement awarding/rewarding' while over-prioritising faux-positivity (which is ultimately then meaningless without balance) just leads to apathy and stagnation. Balanced constructive criticism is probably the way to go......but over constructive-ness outweighing the criticism can result in the criticism not even being noticed, acknowledged or improved upon, especially when considering that we probably learn the most from our failures simply because we don't want to make the same mistake again and embarrass our ego's. I'm a part time uni lecturer/teacher and the amount of 'necessary' constructive criticism now required for students (who are now clients) is sad, as is the end result.....but the business of university doesn't care, nor do the client/customers who simply think they're buying their entitlement.

[@epenies]

There’s no need to humiliate, but telling someone something sucks is not humiliation, it’s being honest if that’s the appropriate assessment.

[@ayoutubechannelname]

It IS humiliation for the one having no business being there.

[@9Point8]

The situations referenced here were not simply brutal honesty. They were using a position of power to debase and bully. Huge difference.

[@lancejones4636]

One man’s cruel is another man’s honesty.

[@indianmonk3380]

One of them is definitely lying

[@ericballi4701]

Yep, just ask Germans. Most would consider their blunt honesty cruel and rude.

[@gavinmc5285]

the old "my truth" justification of abuse

[@stayhungry1503]

the one way to test it is to treat the person in the same way and see how they react. in most cases, they will not accept it for a second, meaning they are hypocrites.

[@JoseFernandez-mn6qt]

Lex, please don’t fall for the narrative of people like Musk and Jobs, whom worked themselves and others to exhaustion, depression, divorce, etc. Many of these people need to berate others to scare them into working insane hours, hours that they will never get back, in order to earn these masters millions and billions of dollars, while you, if you’re lucky, will make a middle class living. So imagine having to convince others to forgo they’re lives for a middle class salary, while you rake in billions! There are some people that are mesmerized by your words and don’t need convincing, but many others need to be terrorized in order for this convincing to happen! Don’t be fooled by the ones who terrorize people into believing that’s what’s needed, because it isn’t! Don’t buy into the narrative that workers can’t have nice things, and they only need to produce! Because that’s the narrative of the ones who keep all the money and can afford to step all over others for their own personal gain.

[@YoYo-gt5iq]

Jobs had a daughter who he denied while naming a computer the same name. That's about all I need to know about him.

[@vaska1999]

😮

[@rife133]

Who cares. You're probably writing this on your iphone, which HE created. Everyone knows his name and his work. No one knows who you are and no one cares about your opinion.

[@patrickl6987]

Elon also has a trans daughter who has removed him from her life. These guys are bad parents

[@alexcaminiti]

As a technical and creative crazy person with untreated ADHD for 37 years, and a personality disorder from childhood trauma and boomers parents doing nothing about it (other than blaming me), and 30 of my 40 years struggling -- doing such seemingly obviously ludicrous and insane things, while they are often quite objectively terrible things, the demon that drives the human to do such things has to be separated from the person who seems human. We are all chock full of contradictions. It's easy to point to such an obvious thing and say, "fuck this guy" -- especially when there isn't even much nuance to the action in question. I am confident that with a different childhood, and a different life, he could have been a quiet and kind computer programmer... And the trade off would be Apple wouldn't exist, which is difficult to fathom, even though in the professional field they peaked years ago and now they just kind of sling more disposable brand culture shit... But hey, you gotta do what you gotta do, and you have to be in it to win it, and other such idioms. Steve Jobs is a legend. No one gets to that level without being amazing and terrible.

[@tehKap0w]

@@alexcaminiti the wealth accrued by the company he built cannot replace the lives he smashed in order to build it.

[@wendyandrew3707]

There's a balance. If you try and avoid being direct certain employees take advantage but never empathise with you. Managing people is very hard. When interviewing young graduates I found a sense of entitlement and arrogance that was impossible to work with. After trialling one, i found her ability to be poor. With training she would have improved, but her arrogance and obvious anger that i did not accept her poor performance, prevented me from employing her further. She would have damaged my business and given me a lot of trouble distracting me from conducting good business. She left town in a huff. Others were angrily resentful when they didn't get the much prized job which confirmed I had made the right decision. I had some good employees though. Tricky and scary taking them on, investing the time training them especially in the current humility scarce environment.

[@sygad1]

"are you hardcore" - shouldn't need to ask and it shouldn't be tied to job security, this is a hideous view of life, YOUR life is the only 1 you have, respect the little time you have and don't be bullied into believing that the only path to success is to squander it on someone else's belief of what work should look like

[@hafunland894]

Steve Jobs went to India to find himself at 18. He found a book by Yogananda called Autobiography of a Yogi which he read and reread ever year of his life. It sounds like the book had little effect on him. Being cruel is not the way of a true yogi. He gave the book to everyone who attended his funeral. Maybe someone else really got something out of it. Am I missing something since I really know very little about him? Did he show any spiritual qualities?

[@starsky1012]

Elon musk demands a level of commitment from salaried employees that he never had himself as a salaried employee. It's stupid to expect people to be as motivated about the company as if they also personally spent $50 billion to own it

[@starsky1012]

@@Gnaritas42 He does have trouble finding people for his companies. That's not reality. And it's not a question of competency. It's a matter of being excited to grow a company that isn't yours. A salaried workers, unless they are very stupid, is never going to be as motivated to do that as the shareholding CEO. Employees who are highly motivated workers are more invested in their own self development than anything else. Especially for the best software engineers, they don't sit at the same company for long. They'll stay like 1-2 years and they hop around collecting stock options because they're very re-hirable.

[@starsky1012]

@@Gnaritas42 I feel like you're just making up everything you're saying as you go along because you love Elon so much lol

[@markusheimerl]

That is a very good point! I thought the same thing at some points when I read the Elon Musk Biography at some points.

[@robspear4894]

Meanness, cruelty, and rudeness are horrible ways to manage people. I’ve worked for people who used those strategies and it just burns people out and leads to bad outcomes. I’ve also worked for people who led with honesty, inspiration, mentorship, patience, and who themselves worked hard and welcomes honest feedback. That always led to better outcomes. Maybe not in the short term, but in the medium and long term, always. People who use cruelty and meanness are proud, impatient, and always have low, immoral motives. I will NEVER work for someone like that again. Did Jobs achieve something? Sure. But look at all the very serious problems that smart phones and constant internet access cause for individuals, especially kids, and society and tell me what Steve Jobs did was good, or at least unequivocally good. Nope. Steve Jobs is not someone to admire.

[@ChristAliveForevermore]

I definitely relate to the type-A classification wherein such a person is inclined towards irritiablity and calling out stupidity wherever one perceives it. However, I'm not inclined towards an intense work schedule insofar as my "work-life balance" would be heavily impacted. So, I suppose I find myself in the center between the extremes of hyper-successful traits: I'm most certainly type-A, but I'm unwilling to sacrifice my peace for worldly success. I believe a fundamental philosophy of materialism is to blame for these billionaires' views on intense productivity. If one can perceive a higher spiritual reality that supercedes the physical, then, as the wise Yogis of India or the 1st century Christians would postulate, why aim for something as lowly as material gain? There are greater things in this life than the acquirement of stuff, be they money, property, or reputation. Some things don't decay with time...

[@aga5109]

True, but l think that progress would never have happened without highly driven people who want to change this world into the Paradise, demanding sacrifices from others.

[@yousufleads]

​@aga5109 neither would be children abused by Epstein

[@ChristAliveForevermore]

@@aga5109 depends on what you mean by "progress."

[@marjotfalkeisen7756]

Mosk feels he is doing something greater than earning money.

[@DanielTorres-ko3kg]

It's better to examine the real problem from the company's purpose, whether teams achieve outcomes (clients) and impacts (Business). Questioning to push employees to work extra hours non-stop, or irrational extra work, or having on-demand "vacation" days because of Psychological Safety or irrational benefits, are inefficient ways to achieve the company's purpose. i.e. either teams will burn out pretty quickly or won't be motivated to move on. I believe discipline is a great value that can be added and is achieved by the company's purpose, one that the employees can identify themselves with. A person or a company achieves discipline by understanding Why an employee or the company does what it does.

[@phenomenalfemale524]

Cruelty is not something the world needs more of. But, when the job is complex and you are the boss you can't care much about being popular. Business requires hard choices and rigorous effort and focus. I admire Elon for his tenacity and work ethic.

[@nsbd90now]

Oh please. He inherited a fortune. Tenacity and work ethic has absolutely nothing to do with it. And as we have found out, he's no genius whatsoever. He's not even a decent person.

[@celesasheldon6931]

@counterNotionss

[@billsmith6652]

This behavior isn't just a commonality to the super successful. I've experienced it or witnessed it from afar, many times in my career. From laborious jobs (where it is really common) to sales both to auto and financial advisory firms. As a motivation tool I found it counterproductive since most people quit their boss not the job.

[@David-l6c3w]

Nobody on their death bed will regret not working hard enough ... they'll regret not spending more time with family and friends and living life.

[@avengemybreath3084]

People regret not being disciplined and fully committing to a goal or a dream, sure they do.

[@TheBlackToedOne]

I think what's more interesting here is the point that is not being directly addressed and that is as we progress through life our priorities change.

[@nightedpemder4992]

This is dumb. There's an old saying, " you can never be friends with your employees". If you do they'll rip you apart.

[@rickjones5399]

It's dumb to you cause you don't understand the extremes of these characters. They're not your typical boss at all.

[@Apjooz]

Then why is Putin kissing Musk's ass.

[@nightedpemder4992]

@@rickjones5399 there's an old saying, " if you can't stand the heat, get out of the fire!".

[@InsanitysApex]

@@nightedpemder4992 It's so, so fitting you defend a well documented narcissist with that quote. Narcissist's crystalline ego's shatter under the slightest heat and pressure. "Whoever loves becomes humble. Those who love have, so to speak, pawned a part of their narcissism." Sigmund Freud "Narcissism is not about self love. It's a clinical trait that belies a deep sense of emptiness, low self-esteem, emotional detachment, self-loathing, extreme problems with intimacy." Dr. Drew Pinsky "The great accomplishment of *Jobs's life* is how effectively he put his idiosyncrasies - his petulance, his narcissism, and his rudeness - in the service of perfection." Malcolm Gladwell Either you're naive to his narcissism or you're under the spell of it. Either way he's still dead and you're dead wrong.

[@rickjones5399]

@@nightedpemder4992 Okay, bro 😂

[@fiachramaccana280]

People like Steve Jobs and Elon Musk know exactly what they are doing. They take smart aspirational people and turn them into followers. By followers I mean serfs. Imagine having thousands of smart aspirational people working for you until 2am every day building your empire. And feeling proud and honoured to be a "trusted team member". The vast majority of them will talk proudly about their experience decades later and feel it was all worth it. Thats some scam. Taking the best years of somebody's life; squeezing the very life juice out of them drop by drop and making them feel honoured to be so badly treated in the process. Cos they are "hardcore". Nothing wrong with being hardcore...if you are fighting for your country. Or playing for your school team. Or getting paid millions a year. But this is a job. You work. They pay you. To get you to give 2 or 3x performance at your job at the cost of literally everything else in your life to make others rich in return for feeling "hardcore". Thats some scam I tell you........

[@middleagedbaldguy6774]

Is having empathy a bug or a feature? People without much seem to do well in this world.

[@dannyarcher6370]

Sad but true.

[@akhiltrc9708]

Depends on your own sense of success. If money and/or power is your only measure of success, empathy is a bug. If you want those things in combination with maintaining good relations with people, it can be treated as a feature. You need to make the judgment call.

[@InsanitysApex]

Empathy is a feature 100% but the machiavellians, narcissists, and psychopaths use it strategically. They do have empathy and they secretly enjoy the misconception that they don't. Empathy has several aspects including reading, expression, caring, reciprocity/permission, and investment/sacrifice. They read others emotions better than most, enough to exploit them. They express how they wish to be perceived (not natural/vulnerable/good faith). They have varying levels of care depending on a wide variety of factors, but assume the worst til they prove you wrong. And as for reciprocity and sacrifice they only engage in interactions they have a high likelihood of coming out on top.

[@aga5109]

​​@superpsychoschizo ​ That's true. I had a friend who is highly narcissistic. I have known her for 4 years, being her close friend. I am very empathetic, caring, and sensitive. There were times l used to feel different and couldn't fit in. After a few years since l ended this friendship, l can see what played out. I wasn't able to see it at that time because she manipulated me into the best friendship l was in so far. I was in a new place on my own & l needed people. I have a narcissistic-father l was close to as a child. I had a need to belong. I wasn't looking after myself the way l should. I felt like a young child emotionally, although l was in my late 20ties. I was really lost & hurt. She somehow picked up on it. I treated her like a big sister l never had. Trauma played out in this relationship to an extended l am amazed now at. It felt like having a great friend, a sister, and a mother who navigates my life, thinks for me. First time in life, such a great friendship. She was so sweet, wise, etc. I didn't pay attention at that time how cruely critical she was about certain people.l was landed the best person ever l could meet wanting to be my friend. Oftentimes, strategic, logical, cold, and adhering to her goals and plans, which were difficult, sometimes impossible to be achieved. She was mega ego maniac at times, fantasising on what she will achieve (she is very hard working, she achieved some of her goals, using other people and exploiting them, manipulating them into being servants on a" court of a quinn" )& needing her badly, controled & controlled by her. Regardless, she used people who could contribute to it like chess in a game. There were confusing moments when she raged at me for a trivial reason, moments of cruelty, rejections, cold shoulder, selfishness, extremely demanding attitude when l needed empathy or more serious situations when she picked another person as her helper, more capable than l was for given circumstances. It hurt, but l was blinded by her brilliant personality, achievements & very sad, traumatic childhood she openly told me about almost straight away after we met. She was very special. I felt very confused in this relationship. I tried to leave it once, but circumstances were unfavourable. I was in a survival mode. I had to survive at that time. She exploited me as much as she could. When she didn't need me, she just threw me out of her life. It came as a shock. It is difficult to see if a person is narcisistic if you are in a relationship this person needs you. There are hints, though. I am grateful for my lesson, which contributed to my growth and, in a way, catapulted me to the next level & as a result, the next level of emotional maturity and so on. I had to finish it, though. At that time, l couldn't. I was too afraid l wouldn't be able to cope with life without this person, my dear friend l was extremely loyal to. A year later, l decided to study psychotherapy & help people professionally. It included my own psychotherapy as a part of a training. I had a good outlet for stress and traumas. I can help people with my own life experience & with my professional knowledge & experience. I am glad. I think many things in life happen for a reason. But we need to process and get free from our traumas because they DO have a profound, unconscious impact on us. Sometimes radical, necessary changes in life help us to move forward in the right direction instead of being "in a loop" and repeat trauma. It's called the process of maturing emotionally & process of healing.

[@aga5109]

Yes, because this reality is created by narcisistic and psychopatic individuals who thrive in it to the detriment of others, less disordered individuals.

[@DDBizzle]

I’ve worked in companies like this…. The good people left and and the scared people stayed… it doesn’t work….

[@tomarmstrong3297]

Isaacson seems clueless (or pretending to be), there’s countless stories of Jobs being just a stone cold bad person, totally unrelated to any drive for business success. E.g. his not acknowledging his own daughter and fighting any financial support. The time pre-Apple when Atari gave Jobs 5K to do a job - which of course Woz ended up doing - and Jobs lied to Woz saying he only got $700, and giving Woz $350 for his “half”. Jobs refused his own sister a 10% discount when she needed a computer (and Woz bought her one). The list goes on…

[@FritzEwert516]

Think case is Issacson realized that those tendencies/incidents didn’t fit into ‘arc’ of how he saw Jobs as a hero … and could best promote book sales, amount for movie rights, etc. Issacson had the chance when he co-wrote THE WISE MEN to go down the path of Robert Caro, but, instead, turned into upscale talking head/public cleanser of sin. Read his Kissinger biography, if you really want to be nauseated.

[@LesGaminuscules]

Cruelty, absolutely not.. and as a subordinate never take that sht.... honesty and cruelty are very different... often honesty stings but cruelty is excess and unnecessary.

[@parthumanpartolive]

seems like we always forget to bring labor laws into this conversation

[@recherche4528]

There is a difference between saying “you’re a stupid person” & “ that’s a stupid idea.” I have no problem with someone saying an idea of mind is stupid if they back it up with concrete,logical reasoning. As an INTJ I appreciate blunt talk and prefer it to sugarcoating.

[@rajeevgangal542]

Had anyone asked them what they do and if the ideas or execution were wrong would they have listened. They are brutal only from a position of privilege. Yes , many people are slackers , companies get fat and sometimes you need to take a surgical knife. But as both demonstrated, they can't take a joke or criticism about them.

[@djmallinson]

When my child was in kindergarten, there were some general class behavioral issues, and parents were invited to discuss them. I could not help noticing straightaway that they were identical to the behaviors of corporate management at work. The teacher made a face when I asked if she could talk to them.

[@tenminuteamateurhour]

Reminds me of when I went to the movie theater and I asked them to change the movie for me mid-way because I didn't like it. Oh wait, that didn't happen because I'm not an idiot.

[@michaelandrew964]

Brutal, honest, brutally honest .. mix and match.

[@Manuka_888]

"Well you're not hardcore, NO YOU'RE NOT HARDCORE, unless you live hardcore..."

[@DennisNedryisStillAlive]

hardcore parkour

[@pelado9293]

"I don't wanna be Elon's pet, baby you should better forget it"

[@gavinmc5285]

work hardcore, not smartcore

[@jensastrup1940]

Sure, you can ask to choose if they are up for a period of intense work but bullying them when they propose ideas you don’t immediately like will select for people who are not afraid of being bullied rather than for the people who are best at coming up with ideas.

[@tottiemitchell6737]

I am reading this good book now. Musk had a vision and he was ultra-focused on the end result. This is obvious from WI's comments about not only Musk but other inventors of our time. Earlier this year I read a quote by an author who said "I don't like the way God gods but I recognize that He loves in ways I do not understand." I am not comparing these extraordinary men to a diety but her phrase is illuminating in this instance.

[@aga5109]

I agree with this quote. In the end, everything is for a reason, and everything makes sense. It is not only my limited experience but people l talk to who stepped on a development path. As irrational as it might sound, it is true.

[@epenies]

Well, that’s the stup-idest quote I have ever heard.

[@wilee.coyote5298]

Work to Live or Live to Work continuum?

[@dimaqny]

I guess that’s why there will always be people who make changes and there will be millions of spectators who sit and discuss how wrong or right they are from the safety of their couch

[@glenneric1]

I think some of these CEOs want their employees to be as obsessive as they are without wanting to pay them what they get paid. You want someone to get obsessive start paying them in shares.

[@lostlandmarks8305]

This guy's just a beat sweetener.

[@ArthArmani]

Steve didint care about peoples feelings, he only cared about the product, he would argue with people all the time, and the reason for that was if someone really knew the idea is best and really good, they would fight him for it.

[@robertpaterson3229]

Drinking game, take a shot everytime Walter says "hardcore"

[@christianpatton142]

The issue isn't 'meanness' or 'cruelty'. The issue is kindness. There is short term kindness and ACTUAL kindness. Short term kindness requires little effort and is really about making YOU feel better, as opposed to bringing real meaningful change to a person/s life. Actual kindness takes a lot of time and effort but will actual make the world a better place for a person/s. So Steve Jobs made a lot of peoples lives better = true kindness.

[@SladeBling]

Working in tech wasn't for me, total waste of time tbh. The people I worked had a lack of morals very similar to Steve Jobs and Bill Gates. Steve Jobs was always a POS and Woz would definitely agree with this. Musk seems to be a lot better but his health will fail soon and he'll be out of the game.

[@jamesdellaneve9005]

True. Tech is a value-less environment. Add the amount of people with autism and you get a unfeeling environment. I work in aerospace. Lot of autistic engineers. Probably 5%. Our industry is more normal though.

[@franzhaas5597]

I hear a lot of excuses here. If your boss asks you if you are in or are out, are you ready to commit or not. There is nothing wrong with that. If your boss asks you to give your life for the company, if you can't, go get another job. If you're ready to give it all, I suggest you don't have Wife and Kids. Family is overrated anyway. There are especially a burden when you're young. Find something you care about and give it your all

[@jonmansson]

What a lot of bs of choosing if you’re in hardcore or not. Do we want everyone to be burnt out at their 30s?

[@avengemybreath3084]

Not everyone needs to work at a company like Twitter, or for a boss like Musk. There are plenty of softer places to work.

[@crazydrummer549]

30s? are you kidding me? most people are just starting or have small families by then. so you're just gona do nothing for the rest of your life because you're "Burnt out"? How do you plan on providing then? find something you actually like then, you'll never be burnt out. this is absolute stupidity at its finest

[@georgemcwilliams4466]

Anger and intensity are only movements in the right direction if your current state is shame, apathy or guilt. Anger persisted in just for the sake of it is not healthy and demonstrates a coping mechanism for fear. The reason more mature employees walked away from it speaks to their level of self realization.