The Dark Knight Returns: Part 2 Reaction!

[@kentonjen8475]

The thing about Superman in Dark Knight Returns is that he's not loyal to the U.S. Government because he wants to but because they have leverage over him that he's forced to be loyal. While Superman is patriotic and values "truth, justice, and the American Way," his depiction shows Frank Miller's libertarian commentary on the difference between patriotism and jingoism, showing that even a powerful being like Superman can become a puppet, whether he wants to or not.

[@johnLennon255]

It's not because the US government has leverage on him. It's cause he doesn't want to scare the humans into not trusting him. All superman wants is the trust and love of the human race.

[@ItApproaches]

What leverage does the president have on him? If this is the case, couldn't he just go to Batman and be like hey man, can you help me out of this?

[@kentonjen8475]

@@ItApproaches The entire city of Kandor. He can't because the President has eyes and ears everywhere on Superman. Any wrong move Superman makes, and the bottled city is gone.

[@ItApproaches]

@@kentonjen8475 So Superman just says alright Mr. President I'll go deal with Batman, then while in the Batcave he can tell Batman. No place more secure then the Batcave. Hell Superman could just grab the president and fly him into the atmosphere and be like really Mr. President? You preach about freedom and you hold Kandor hostage? How the heck did he even get Kandor lol. Also not to be an ass, but just let Kandor get destroyed, no big deal.

[@kentonjen8475]

@@ItApproaches Oh, yeah, go to the Batcave to which is very secure from prying eyes. That's a great idea, except that Batman wants nothing to do with Superman even since their falling out with what happened to Green Arrow and has since left Bruce alone ever since Jason Todd died, and Superman has already made his decision knowing he can't take any chances, especially with the millions of lives at stake and this is the US Government we're talking abut. They have the means and resources to research, track, and take down their targets effectively and efficiently. That's one of the reasons Bruce blew up Wayne Manor and faked his death, mostly to buy him some time before plotting his revolution (and why he knew Clark could keep it a secret from his handlers). Also, remember what Super said, "If it's not me, they'll send someone else." There are other Supes working for the government and Superman's the only one keeping them from killing Bruce (deep down, he knew Bruce wouldn't stop doing what he does and tried reasoning with him to stand down, taking the task because the other Supes wouldn't have the patience). He got Kandor from Lex Luthor after stealing it from the Fortress of Solitude who, with the help of Brainiac, kept the bottled city locked up within a undisclosed facility, rigging a failsafe that would kill millions in case Superman tries to do anything stupid. Also, that's what I thought you would say, but here's this for a rebuttal. Do you really think Superman, the big good out of everyone in the DC Universe, would allow anyone to destroy not only the last bastion of Kryptonian civilization but a city inhabited by millions of innocent people? Maybe someone like in Marvel Universe would for "the greater good" or some denial and rationalization crap, but not Superman, and you actually saying that shows how very little you understand the man of steel.

[@lukasismael430]

Oliver Queen (the one-handed archer) was the superhero Green Arrow, a guy who used to be a member of the Justice League along with Batman and Superman. This storyline is set in a possible future (although when the graphic novel was written, it was in the 80's which is why Reagan is president) where superheroes have eventually been outlawed by the government, except for Superman who is let to operate in secret by the government, possibly because they need him too much to let him retire.

[@georgesmith6218]

The general story is that government demanded heroes to either obey or retire. Then some of the ones that sided with the government fought the ones who refused to do either. I'm pretty sure that Supes laser beams is how Green Arrow lost his arm. Frank Miller kind of takes the whole 'Great power great responsibility' thing to extreme and as such, he is slightly disgusted with Supes, he thinks Supes is not doing enough with his power, disregarding what lesser people might say. Supes himself is afraid of becoming a tyrant and forcing his view onto the world which is why he tries to abide to the wishes of the people or specifically, an elected head of state.

[@N0-1_H3r3]

So, in the comics, Oliver Queen/Green Arrow originally died, his arm trapped in a contraption set to explode, aboard a plane. Superman arrives to help, but can only save Green Arrow's life by amputating his arm. Oliver Queen died. He was resurrected years later. The version of Oliver seen in The Dark Knight Returns had the alternate fate, surviving but losing his arm.

[@Avenger85438]

Which is a pretty sus take on a guy who just wants to keep himself in check. It certainly doesn't help with the accusation that Frank made Batman a facist icon.

[@andre1999o]

By the way, the talk-show host that the Joker kills is voiced by Conan O'Brien.

[@andre1999o]

@@fynnthefox9078 Really? I don't see much of a resemblance.

[@carn9507]

@@andre1999o I thought it was him before I found out it was his voice. :P

[@reflectionist]

28:58 - That is indeed Oliver Queen. And I absolutely LOVE the subtle "show-don't-tell" aspect regarding Oliver Queen. They explain it in a throwaway line before the character even appears. ---- "Then I'll get right to it. You have to go back into retirement. You're upsetting too many people." "Mhm." "Why do you always have to be like this? You played right into their hands last time. When the parents groups and subcommittes came after us, you were the one they pointed to! You act like a criminal!" "We ARE criminals, Clark. We always have been. You're still one, too. The only difference is that you have a boss." "And you answer to no one. You know, we almost had this talk ten years ago, when you wouldn't go along with the deal we made. Everyone else agreed. Diana went back to her people, Hal left the planet--" "And Oliver? Did he agree?" "That's not how I wanted that to go." "Oh, he was all *TORN UP* about it, too!" (Meaning, Oliver didn't want to retire, either, so Superman just tore his left arm off, which REALLY impedes the archery skills.)

[@N0-1_H3r3]

This is very much an alternate universe, not part of any continuity but it's own (with Batman Year One as well, as it was written by Frank Miller as well). Even with the comics, Bruce continued to be Batman after Jason died, where this version did not. It was very much meant to be a "what if" type story, showing a hypothetical older, bitter, more ruthless Batman. Selina here is a prostitute because that's how Miller chose to depict her in Batman: Year One as well. The old guy with one arm is Oliver Queen, formerly the hero known as Green Arrow. He's similar to Marvel's Hawkeye in a number of ways (no powers, just a bow, a load of trick arrows, and exceptional skill), but the version in the comics around the time The Dark Knight Rises was written was very anti-authority and extremely vocally left-wing. If you want a more... wholesome is probably the right word... Batman and Superman team-up, keep on with Superman: The Animated Series. Batman will make an appearance fairly soon in the first of several crossovers before the Justice League are formed.

[@mmxxiii9503]

Surprisingly this universe is more or less close of how the justice league if the UN or something related to rights would have involved

[@susdoge222]

There is batman superman apocalypse and most wanted

[@johnLennon255]

The book never implies the reason why Bruce quits is because of Jason's death. It just tells us it happened.

[@ItApproaches]

I wouldn't say anti-authority is left wing...lol, it's called having a mind.

[@mmxxiii9503]

@@ItApproaches exactly, Is basic common sense

[@Bub98]

I recommend "Batman/Superman public enemies" for a Batman and Superman team up, it is very light hearted but I love how they portrayed Clark and Bruce's friendship.

[@ThatN7Guy]

Dark Knight Returns is definitely an elseworlds story not connected to any other animated show, universe or movie. Part 2 definitely kinda assumes you already know a vast majority of these characters and their relationships but it will become a lot clearer the more Justice league / DC content you consume. As others says Superman Batman public enemies and apocalypse are both good versions of the relationship between supes and bats but keep watching Superman the animated series and you’ll soon enough see my personal favorite version of the relationship :)

[@tonyantonellis9983]

When Superman looked like Bizarro as a result of the nuke missile, he was sucking up solar energy from plants to be back into shape and recover.

[@d-manthecaptain1382]

The Ellen Yindel character of this comic would later go on to be reinvented as Detective Ellen Yin, a major charcater in the first two seasons of an animated 2004 series known as "The Batman".

[@d-manthecaptain1382]

@@mariebourgot4949 I mean, sure, I don't have a qoute confirming that or anything, but it's pretty clear. Both characters are serious minded, start off not trusting the Batman, grow to have a respect for him, their names are almost the same, and in The Dark Knight Returns episode of The Batman there's line about her having become the Police Comissioner.

[@flowersanbones]

man, it's such a shame how they got rid of Ellen Yin after they introduced Gordon. It really didn't have to be one or the other, both would've been amazing

[@primary2630]

I think they stopped featuring her because they had batgirl come in as well so they had to devote more time to developing that, but I agree she should've still showed up occasionally@@flowersanbones

[@acetrainerj3277]

Dark Knight Returns isn't part of the DCAU, it's a one off story in a different timeline. And don't worry, Justice League happens pretty much right after Superman TAS

[@mmxxiii9503]

It's more related to the graphics novel

[@Rocket1377]

The actor who played the Joker's psychiatrist (Michael McKean) also voiced the Joker in an animated story. I won't say which one, because you haven't seen it yet. He also appears alongside Tim Curry (the original choice for Joker in Batman: TAS) in the movie Clue.

[@carn9507]

he's also Perry White in Smallville. :P

[@Oskar0424]

@@carn9507 Also Chuck McGill in Better Call Saul

[@marzuuuuski]

A couple things to answer some of your questions and some things I just like: One detail I love about Joker in this movie is his color scheme, and how everything is faded, even his hair. It shows how he was out of commission but still was Joker at heart. I don't know, it's such a unique and cool color palette. It also plays into the safety of the new Arkham and their rehabilitation program. The voice actor for Bartholomew Wolper(Joker's psychiatrist that he kills) voiced the Joker in the Batman: The Animated Series(or New Batman Adventures) episode "Legends of the Dark Knight". I find it incredibly ironic that he was killed by the character he once played 😂. Superman is loyal to the U.S. government because they all made a deal to disband the league and either retire or leave(Wonder Woman back to Themyscira, Green Lantern(s) back to OA to be restationed, etc.). It's why Batman coming out of retirement is such a big deal, because he's violating the deal the league made. And why Superman works for the government, because he calls Earth home and can't justify himself not helping out with his powers. There is a movie I think you'd absolutely love where Batman and Superman are best buddies, and it's Batman/Superman: Public Enemies. Really good, I'd highly recommend checking it out. Oliver is Oliver Queen, aka Green Arrow. Superman probably cut his arm off to prevent him from using his bow, but he found another way Also, I'd HIGHLY recommend you watch Superman/Shazam vs. Black Adam: DC Showcase. It's 4 short stories with different heroes/characters: Captain Marvel, Green Arrow(my personal favorite story of the showcase, I think you'll absolutely love him), Jonah Hex, and the Spectre. It's fantastic and i think you'll enjoy them! I've been a follower for probably over a year, and I've loved the DC reactions!! Also, Superman from Superman: the Animated Series is my favorite version of the character too(you're definitely not coming off as snobbish)!

[@a_fine_edition2746]

So glad you watched both parts! This really is an incredible adaptation of a classic comic, though it is rather different from the average depiction of Batman and Superman. Having this be your first real exposure to the Batman/Superman relationship is interesting. I do think this story benefits from the viewer understanding that pre-existing and established notion in the audience's mind, which you unfortunately didn't seem to have here due to only recently entering the world of these characters and not having seen them interact in much. Suffice to say the two of them are absolutely great friends in most continuities (though more recently lots of writers have unfortunately started them off on pretty rocky terms and continually keep them in conflict with each other). The film hints at their friendship and the former Justice League to an extent throughout, and especially in the scene where Clark comes to Bruce and asks him to retire. They talk about an arrangement the League came to with the government, which involved them disbanding and going their separate ways. Clark notes this, saying "Diana (Wonder Woman) went back to her people, Hal (the main Green Lantern) left the planet..." and Bruce brings up Oliver, who we see later. He's Green Arrow, who's very much a robin-hood inspired superhero with a penchant for archery and trick arrows. He's the DC equivalent of Hawkeye in some ways, though a major aspect of his character was his left-leaning political views. You'll hopefully get to see plenty of him if you get far enough into the DCAU. Speaking of politics, you were understandably rather put-off by Superman's role in the story. This version of the character has been generally heavily criticized by fans, and Miller's take is a controversial one to say the least. It didn't help that he kept coming back to this version of the DC universe with subsequently worse and dare I say unhinged interpretations that should never have seen the light of day. Miller is very divisive, and the quality of his work has declined so drastically from his early 80s works (The Dark Knight Returns, Batman: Year One, his time writing for Daredevil) that it's astounding. I'll just say that I think part of the intent of his characterization of Superman in this story was that Clark wanted to find any way to still help people, even if it meant working for the government. Whether or not that works with the character is up for debate, but it's certainly better than how he characterizes him in subsequent stories, along with just about every other hero. Seriously, NEVER read The Dark Knight Strikes Again or All-Star Batman & Robin. They are utterly disgraceful to virtually every single character in them, particularly Batman and Wonder Woman. Also yes, unfortunately Alfred passed away. The stroke he suffered from was not part of Bruce's plan. Alfred was just meant to set up the failsafe that destroyed the mansion and then leave, but his age regrettably caught up with him.

[@notavailable8514]

Superman, I've heard theorized by others, behaves like this because we are seeing him from Batman's perspective. Unfortunately, there are a LOT of people who started reading comics because of the 'Dark Knight Returns', and this was their introduction to Superman, and therefore, that's what they think Superman is, overall. "He's a stooge, he's a stick in the mud, he's a wet blanket for guys like Batman to kick around, 'cause Batman gets shit done-- Punk rock!" But people that know the character of Superman, and that understand the character of Superman, know he's nothing of the kind. Though I love the character, I've always found Batman to be kind of an unstable lunatic. That if anyone were to go rogue and take over, or think they knew better and twist the rule of law to their will, or get someone's arm cut off, it would be Batman. Not that I think that would, or should, ever happen, but I just think that the idea of Superman-- Small town, working class, simple life, down to earth, well adjusted Superman becoming a tyrant or someone's puppet... Doesn't. Make. Sense. He would NEVER, in my opinion.

[@Esafc-lb2sg]

Absolutely, Superman would never act as a stooge for a President. He has too much honour, integrity and intelligence. He’s an investigative reporter, no chance he likes someone like Reagan, or does what he says.

[@blackfox4138]

Yup, I would definitely make the argument that Frank Miller should never be someone's first ever superhero comic, as the man has very...cynical views. He believes the youth and the new only tear down what the old created. He believes those who abide by the government inevitably loose their morals. And he believes that heroes who hold back their power are weak in mind and spirit, and those who create and enforce their own rules are inherently morally just compared to others.B

[@NickCTorres]

here Sups becomes a puppet in order to not become a tyrant and it makes total sense his character has always been the one of a god trying to be a man, and in order to be accepted he's decided the humanty's conflicts and interests are not up to the superhumans to decide or control he's a foreigner and you know what they say "When in Rome, do as romans do" so he limits to serve the land he lives in because otherwise he'd feel he's wasting his capacities to protect the world, but when he says "its their world" he's referecing to the non super people, not the US nation so here i don't really think this is him bein US's little bitch because "America Fuck Yeah!", but he has actual reasons that are coherent with his character and how the world's society has turned in Dark Knight Returns

[@yetibeardson1168]

Except there are multiple occasions where Superman does exactly the thing your fanboy mind can't comprehend. All Superheroes are by nature beyond flawed and tend to create the villains and most of the death surrounding them. Superman well adjusted? I mean maybe as well adjusted as an alien who literally is a god compared to those around him, sure. He isn't a normal guy and he knows that. Same as Batman. Only difference is Batman doesn't have literal god powers to rely upon. Which in itself makes him far more relatable as well as his character in any setting more believable than your "god is a god and has the mental fortitude of a god" type boring ass unwavering hero. And I mean come. Superman is always a stick in the mud. It's part of his whole lame deal.

[@RV-vx9ek]

​@yetibeardson1168 whats with the adhom out the gate? Jesus.

[@DoctorNoon2717]

If you wanna see one of the best Superman movies, you should see "Superman vs. The Elite" if you haven't.

[@FurbyPurrson]

the joker didn't snap his neck. the batman actually killed joker by snapping his neck. the monologue from the joker you see after that is all in batman's psyche trying to justify his code ''justice not vengeance''. the movie gives you a hint: screaming woman in the tunnel. she saw batman snapped the jokers neck and killed him that's why she screamed while running away from the scene.

[@freefall945]

Superman fans have been, rightly, upset at this “bad guy” use of Superman. It’s definitely not the Clark we know and love from his own stories, but he’s an effective enemy here.

[@idgafanymore69]

"Rightly", my asshole. They're a bunch of crybabies. It was never about them.

[@LegoGeek456]

As a BATMAN fan, I’m sick and tired of that treatment of Clark. I definitely prefer it when they’re friends.

[@snake-doctor]

Oliver is Green Arrow. Alfred is dead. This is an Elseworlds story so it’s not canon to mainline DCU. Read the comics for more context. The Justice League is non-existent in this universe at this point in time. If I remember right the movie even addresses that Hal was forced off world and Diana was back on Themyscira ever since the governments passed the law that heroes couldn’t act of their own accord

[@cje499]

The man Oliver is Oliver Queen/ the Green Arrow Also, you wanna watch Supes and Bats as friends, I recommend "Superman Batman Public Enemies"

[@JairBPena]

In the comic and in this movie, we are seeing this from Bruce/Batman so in that context yeah, the Joker snaps his own neck but thare it´s a theory that Batman did snapped Joker´s neck and his mind made him imagine he was talking to Joker so he would not blame himself and acknowledge he took a life.

[@OXO1952]

Hi. To answer your questions, Oliver is called the Green Arrow. You will eventually see him in the Justice League Unlimited cartoon. Also, I guess the Justice League existed in the “past” of this story. Don’t worry though. This story has nothing to do with the DCAU and the Justice League cartoons.

[@OXO1952]

Oh, and there is a live-action Green Arrow series called Arrow which is definitely worth checking out.

[@ch33les99]

@@OXO1952it’s a good show but I wouldn’t say it’s a 100 percent reliable representation of the character. It takes a LOT from the Batman universe and other characters and applies it to Oliver

[@carn9507]

@@OXO1952 I love and miss Arrow. I was already a Green Arrow fan before it but it stripped away most of the goofy stuff and heck, it spawned a whole TV universe. And Stephen Amell was so darn dedicated to playing Ollie too.

[@carn9507]

@@ch33les99 Green Arrow took a LOT from Batman when he was created in the 40s. He was a billionaire, he had a young male sidekick, he had an Arrow-Car, an Arrow-Cave etc. He was summoned via the Arrow-Signal. And even had an arch-enemy who was clown-themed (called Bulls-Eye). CW Arrow just did that but with the grittier stuff instead. And they play with it much later in the Arrowverse when they actually start to mention Batman and Oliver doesn't believe he exists and thinks he, the Green Arrow, is the original vigilante. :P

[@OXO1952]

@carn9507 I believe the darker tone was heavily influenced by a Green Arrow comic title in the 90s called Green Arrow: The Longbow Hunters! That title also made Oliver a slightly darker character in the comic universe as well.

[@John_Raiyder]

There is very popular theory (or perhaps even intended by the Author) that Batman killed Joker in the Tunnel and merely imagined that final part of the Conversation. I personally believe that to be true, since it really does fit this kind of Bats

[@S-Z-jf5zk]

Yeah that plus you can’t really snap your own neck

[@dcworld4349]

Most of it was snapped he didn't go fully through with it, then the joker used the last of his energy to finish the job.

[@circa81]

I don't think this story was ever considered strictly canonical with the rest of the stories in the comics, so don't worry about trying to place it or thinking you missed something, it's very much it's own thing.

[@susdoge222]

It’s highly implied in comic that batman snapped joker neck but in his mind he can’t take death. So he creates a false narrative

[@lalalarose8197]

What? In the comic it shows Batman only paralyzing Joker. Joker himself commits suicide to spite him.

[@bloodymares]

@@lalalarose8197 I don't think it's physically possible to snap your own neck without using some external force.

[@yetibeardson1168]

@@lalalarose8197 Except you can't snap your own neck simply by turning it. It's just not physically possible. Batman killed him, and convinced himself he didn't.

[@ianmcfadden2794]

This is not implied at all. I've read the Comic a billion times ..why are you telling fibs?

[@yetibeardson1168]

@@ianmcfadden2794 Batman absolutely snapped his neck.

[@tonyantonellis9983]

in this film Clark said that Wonder Woman went back to her island and Green Lantern Hal Jordan left earth.

[@Mercurial_Phantom]

Kevin Conroy & Tim Daly performed this live.

[@spencernaugle]

26:27 It's funny that you mentioned that. I've been confused by the order you've been watching the DC content in. This should kinda be the "DC Finale"

[@spencernaugle]

3:25 I don't think any of the movies have acknowledged that one of Batman's greatest skills is being a master of disguise.

[@yetibeardson1168]

My favorite example aside from this movie is the Animated series episode where the villains are all playing poker telling Batman stories and he is just chilling with them pretending to be Killer Croc.

[@jazz265]

In regards to the Joker I think the implication is that Batman really did kill him by snapping his neck and the conversation afterward was just in Batman's head, unable to process the reality that he finally killed somebody. It's further implied in the original comic as everybody speaks with white speech bubbles but after Joker's neck is snapped he speaks in grey bubbles, which is the same color as the bubbles used to show Batman's inner thoughts.

[@paragonrobits809]

It's kind of hard to say WHAT Frank Millar's actual opinions on Superman are; he has notably sometimes suggested in his plots that Superman effectively declaring himself tyrant over the world or forcing the entire world to comply with his will is something he SHOULD do, or at least that Millar thinks he should, which is one reason he's very controversial nowadays. Given that Batman's dialogue of 'Clark, you let them do it' implies that he thinks Superman should have forced America and Russia to stop fighting (when Superman questioning if he has the right to even thinking of such a thing is a pretty big cornerstone of his modern character) and its pretty likely that Millar intends for us to believe Batman is in the right. Personally i think its a bit myopic of Batman to suggest that Superman has had an easy life compared to him when the guy's literal origin is diaspora taken to an extreme. He might have been taken in by humans and raised as one of them, but he's still a fundamental outsider who doesn't belong and WILL never belong. All things considered, though, I really do like the moment of Superman realizing Batman is still alive and makes a point of going along with the facade, and perhaps declaring some independence for himself. It's notable since Batman very clearly planned for that or something like it to happen, which I like to imagine implies Batman might be at odds with him but still gets at least this aspect of him. As horrific as it is, Superman draining the plans to heal himself from radiation damage in the comic was less overtly horrifying; the monologue, which states something like 'your adopted son will honor you' sort of implies the world itself is giving some life back to heal him.

[@WolfHreda]

I love that they got Conan O'Brien to voice David Endocrine. Just the littke touches that make this movie so great. Unfortunately, they never made a movie of the sequel, The Dark Knight Strikes Back. Even as a comic, it's not as strong as DKR, but it has some interesting moments, including more Superman stuff.

[@nigeltrotter2886]

26:29- Superman/Batman: Public Enemies. They were besties in that.

[@dcworld4349]

Carrie ends up becoming Batman for a while before taking the mantle of Batwoman once Bruce gets dipped in a Lazarus pit having died.

[@Val1Zod]

Superman kinda allergic Nuclear Missile Radiation. Upon absorption of said radiation, he instantly loses the stored solar radiation in his body. Which is why he ends up looking like a skinny zombie.

[@TheNorthlander]

Oliver is the Green Arrow, an archer type hero who you might see more of later.

[@mmxxiii9503]

I like the graphic novel but I have to admit they did a great job adapting it also Peter Weller as a Batman, so cool 18:32 "Stop laughing" that line 😢 27:14 not anymore in this universe, thanks to the UN. After the humans right people intervened they were force to gave up arms

[@fireeaglefitnessmartialart935]

Oliver is green arrow. Basically a "robin hood" version of batman. I love the superman batman fight. Especially the construction site scene. I love the whole story of part 1 and 2, but 2 is my favorite of the 2 movies.

[@petermarvy3218]

I watched this movie long time ago and i still need to read comic book (i am not that excited about Frank Miller) but i like to interpretate this "You let them do it" as "You didn't make them better people", that Superman failed in teaching humanity how to be better. Also, Justice League Unlimited features Oliver (aka Green Arrow) pretty prominently so at some point you will find out more about this character

[@ppvsonicspy]

Superman is absorbing the energy from the Sun from those flowers, that's how his powers work, he pretty much has photosynthesis to absorb the Sun's energy in order to give him more power.

[@GeorgeInglis]

Oliver is Green Arrow and I can’t wait for you to eventually meet him in Justice League Unlimited

[@jayvansickle7607]

There are many iterations where Clark calls Batman his "Best Friend".

[@Regenmacher175]

The fact that Batman pulls some of these dangerous stunts that would at the very least injure bystanders is why people within the story are criticising him. He is doing everything aside from killing people to carry out his quest for vengeance and that means he's willing (and known for) breaking a bunch of laws that he apprehends criminals for breaking. He essentially acts like a cop without any possibility of holding him accoutable for ANYTHING he does here so I definitely understand why people might not want to endorse vigilante justice as a solution to crime.

[@vincible45]

16:46 you shouldn’t! Idk where I saw it but there was an interview or article about this comic that the writer intended to use a Batman villain from the comics that was LITERALLY a p3d0. I think there was some legal stuff whether it was rights issues or just WB not wanting him in a Batman movie. Either way, glad that guy died a brutal death on screen

[@Guaseth]

Ahh yes, the USA, the country where you every time you extend your arm and a bald eagle lands on it

[@TheCryptofHorrors-DerCryptaxis]

Alfred dies when the mansion burns down, he was basically part of it. In the comic he's loooong dead.

[@K4R8]

There's a batman/superman comic run by Jeph Loeb. Theres even a movie of the first plot arc of it "public enemies"

[@circa81]

I think when Batman said Supes let them do it what he meant was Superman was playing the old country vs country game with the Russians when Superman had the power to just go ahead and prevent any such launch if he stopped playing by the rules like Batman.

[@koushikraja331]

The time in which frank miller wrote this was also the time in which superman and the rest of the dcu were rebooted and superman went from this badass champion of the people who took on corporate criminals, evil landlords and domestic abusers to being a stooge for the government and a bootlicker who bends over for the "murican way", as per writer Jon Byrne who screwed over a lot of superman lore. Frank miller even took a lot of superman's virtues from the earlier days and applied them to dkr's batman.

[@bampowbang6898]

So glad you got the chance to watch this gem! I think after this, you'd really appreciate playing the Injustice series. All of the Justice League members are in the game, voiced by the cast of show.

[@f.m848]

You wanna see Superman Batman best friend dynamic, watch Superman/Batman Public Enemies movie.

[@cartoonking1789]

If you want a good movie of Batman and Superman I suggest Superman/Batman:Public Enemies, it’s a great movie for their friends.

[@jaredwiggins539]

Since the Dark Knight originated in Park Row AKA Crime Alley makes perfect sense 4 him 2 somewhat end there!

[@EalainEP]

If you want a superman batman besties movie then watch superman/batman public enemies its realky good and also uses the animated series voice actors

[@ChadBenjamin]

Superman as a Republican stooge is so disrespectful lmao, even in a dystopian alternate universe.

[@gustavoximenes1372]

If you back then (1986) ask to Frank Miller about Superman in this comic book, he probally would say there was not a question just about political parties

[@OXO1952]

Yeah..Superman’s part in this story seems VERY out of character. I guess Frank Miller just didn’t like the character.

[@idgafanymore69]

It really isn't. Pussy consumers just take it more seriously than needed.

[@youngeeneden1594]

@@mariebourgot4949loved it

[@carlosquilez3256]

Oliver Queen (Green Arrow) has been too rebelous since the 70s to follow a force retirement order from anyone

[@HarryK-ld2ed]

That old guy is Oliver Queen. He is the superhero Green Arrow, DC's version of Hawkeye.

[@demianoff]

Basically you don't like superman when he isn't portrayed as superman

[@Wolfhunter5607]

a lot of people don’t like this version of superman which makes sense bc this is just a what if or elseworlds story anyway

[@jonathanwhitten976]

The movie is missing a lot of context from the graphic novel. So much exposition wasn't included.

[@yetibeardson1168]

I mean at the end of the day "Batman doesn't kill" is a twisted fantasy Batman creates for himself. His actions almost always end up in deaths, directly or indirectly. He's just as insane as the psychopaths he chases. He needs that chase, this movie is the best showcase of that. Or rather needed, when he was younger. This version of him seems to be striving for more finality. Which is why is keeps the charade going for himself, but let's be honest, he killed Joker in the tunnel of love. Snapped his neck, then had an out of body experience where Joker says "see you in Hell." Which is just his own twisted brain confirmed to him that yes, he killed the Joker. Then he makes sure his body will burn to absolve "The Batman" of that sin.

[@omarrashid9588]

Frank Miller believes that Batman and Superman cannot be friends, and he likes Batman more. It explains why he writes Superman the way he does

[@declanmorden]

Ngl I honestly think that the films are better than the comics when it comes to this storyline

[@jjkm17]

Joker only exists if he has someone to fill the Batman role. That's why he retired for so long until Batman came back

[@killmonger5097]

Meg definitely wouldn’t want to read DC comics if she’s surprised the superhero’s fight each other they do that all the time and right now Batman and Catwoman are at war and all the Batfamily except Damian sided with her and hate Batman

[@milkiassamuel780]

That honestly sounds like a terrible idea for comic book conflict, like why on Earth would Catwoman go to war with Batman when the two are usually seen as implied or straight up lovers, let alone why would the Batfamily side with her given how dedicated many of them are to Bruce

[@milkiassamuel780]

@@fynnthefox9078 Regardless of how bad Gotham War may be, I will say the current Dawn of DC reboot has to be one of the best times to be a DC fan as we've been getting a lot of great comic runs for countless characters like Superman, Worlds Finest, Hal Jordan and John Stewarts Green Lantern, Green Arrow, The Flash, Shazam, Hawkgirl, Blue Beetle etc... and more upcoming stories and comic runs to come like Tom Kings upcoming Wonder Woman graphic novel, Steel comic run written by his DCAU voice actor, Cyborg solo series, Teen Titans etc...

[@spencernaugle]

4:34 That scene is kind of iconic, but makes no sense. Why not just pick up the blind man instead of giving whiplash to a train full of people.

[@rubimoongaming]

I know you guys are excited, but I am still deleting comments with spoilers. Patience. We all know what is expected, but Meg doesn’t and we’re keeping it that way.

[@tonyantonellis9983]

the second part mentioned that the justice league including Batman retired years earlier.

[@bryanee83]

Keep making your way through the DCAU and you learn and see a lot regarding DC characters. BTAS, STAS, Batman Beyond, Justice League and Justice League Unlimited. Kinda jealous you get to see it all for the first time.

[@knightfallprotocol]

I feel like you're too hyper focused on trying to make this story fit into your own canon instead of just watching it as its own thing. All of your complaints revolving around you wanting more backstory when it's not the movie's job to hold the hands of newbies. You either know these characters and the events that took place in their life, or you don't.

[@MrDpool1]

Reading Order- Superman: Year One Batman: Year One All-Star Batman & Robin The Boy Wonder Spawn/Batman Dark Knight Returns: The Last Crusade Batman: The Dark Knight Returns Batman: The Dark Knight Strikes Again Batman: The Dark Knight-The Master Race Dark Knight Returns: The Golden Child

[@ArchangelsWrath]

The reason Clark was helping the government, is because they had Kandor, and Lex was using it as leverage against Clark

[@stefanodefazio8300]

You should see "public enemies"

[@ItApproaches]

Justice League and Justice League Unlimited takes place awhile after Batman TAS but before Batman Beyond.

[@JW666]

In the comic the talkshow host was heavily drawn after David Letterman & his sidekick heavily drawn after Paul Shaffer. But since they couldn't get Letterman to do the voice in this movie & because of license of using a celebrity's image, they obviously changed it. They still use the name "Dave", but here he's voiced by Conan O'Brien & the character is sort of drawn after him instead. I say "sort of" because they didn't draw too much of Conan's well known pompadour hairdue.

[@JimmyXWolvie]

Loving your DC reactions Mage! BTW, there is a canon future batman story that takes place in the DCAU, and it's called "Batman Beyond". Wait until you finish all of justice league/ Unlimited to get there. ✌

[@ch33les99]

Some reading recommendations for Green Arrow (Oliver) The Longbow Hunters by Mike Grell Hard-Travelling Heroes by Dennis ONeal (also features Hal Jordan) The 2011 run by Jeff Lemire New Blood by Judd Winick

[@lordmorklen5166]

For Superman/Batman besties you can watch the Justice League animated series or a little piece called Superman/Batman: Public Enemies.

[@b.u.l.1734]

Yeah... You can tell Frank Miller wasn't a fan of Supes, lol.

[@Wadeplayz_]

This universe is crazy. Superman didn’t really want to help the president, but he labeled all hero’s as criminals, especially Batman. The only reason he retired is because Batman didn’t want to be controlled, and the president said all hero’s could remain active but had to work for him. So you could be a hero but only allowed to do the governments dirty work, making you strictly apart of the US. Or you were to stop all activity as a hero or be killed or put in jail for life, most hero’s quit, others were put in prison and forced to help the government against their will. Love this story tho 😂, even though it’s so dark

[@davida12345]

The Alfred thing for sure doesn't make any sense if Bruce planned on, not dying lol

[@kazipena4538]

Superman Batman: Public Enemies is a good movie where the two of them are friends.

[@shwenty1734]

You need to watch Batman/Superman Public Enemies. They're besties in that.

[@spencernaugle]

4:16 Probably Tattoos, those sort of people are extremely mentally unwell so they tend to go the extreme of tattooing that symbol on themselves.

[@fallenangelsclub8048]

I'd want a story where superman and batman are best friends. Superman and Batman Public Enemies is your movie.

[@claudioadriano5422]

I suggest you watch the Justice League animated series only after you have watched the entire Superman animated series. Certain events in JLTAS you understand better after watching STAS

[@4c3fr3h1y]

Of course joker killed the therapist. He was talking shit about his boyfriend right in front of him. 😂

[@LordTuskk]

If you want Superman and Batman as best friends, the best movie to show that is Superman/Batman Public Enemies

[@EH-us4jk]

A loose adaptation of this in live action is Batman vs Superman Dawn of Justice directors cut. It has some of these sequences and it has a similar vibe. Man of Steel takes place before it

[@Avenger85438]

This story was for a long time given credit for "making Batman serious again", which isn't actually true as Batman had already returned to his gothic roots in the 70's, however this notion became ingrained in pop-culture all the same. Its only recently with the declining quality of Frank Miller's writings and his more extreme political leanings manifesting within them that people have started to re-examine DKR, and found that many of those same problems his later work have, are also present. The most damning criticism being how it practically makes Batman into a fascist symbol by portraying everyone but him as an incompetent or corrupt and that only he, a man free of consequence and restriction is capable of fixing everything no matter how violent and callous his actions.

[@Dante1864]

Batman’s anti gun speech in this one lives rent free in my head.

[@dcworld4349]

I love how the Snyder fanboys are able to both defend Batman having no problem using guns and saying this book defends it.

[@ItApproaches]

Oliver is Oliver Queen, aka Green Arrow. DC's Hawk Eye I guess, though I think Green Arrow came first. He is very similar to Bruce, both billionaires, both just humans, both have fancy gadgets. Green Arrow does join the justice league but didn't want to. He is very loyal to Bruce. If he see's Bruce quit the justice league, he quits to. He knows never go against Batman.

[@okknownow]

any justice league animated show is amazing to watch

[@chriscollins2095]

It's hypocritical to say that all the Joker's killings are a result of Batman not killing the Joker. Batman is tolerated by law enforcement because he doesn't try to replace the justice system. He helps enforce the law by turning criminals into the police. Why doesn't the justice system just sentence the Joker to be executed?

[@FrostyMac]

I tend to prefer the other “Future Batman” timeline, Batman Beyond (which I’d recommend if you keep on with the DCAU tv shows) but The Dark Knight Returns is the first Batman comic I read in full so it has a special place in my heart.

[@ItApproaches]

You should watch the Justice League animated show and Justice League Unlimited. It's so good. The Batman in it is Kevin Conrroy and it's the same Batman from the Animated series. Pretty sure Superman is the same from the animated series too. Batman and Superman are good friends in Justice League. Well they respect each other I should say. Superman trusts Batman above all other members of the league.

[@oussamamahfoud3168]

Love your reaction and insights i can't wait to see your reaction to justice league and JL unlimited it's in the same universe of BTAS and Superman animated series

[@cyberleadr]

The best Batman and Superman friendship stories are in the two Batman/Superman movies, Public Enemies and Apocalypse. And I'm sorry, but how do you not know Oliver Queen/Green Arrow? The live action TV shows on CW are literally nicknamed The Arrowverse in his honor. Green Arrow is so much cooler than Hawkeye.

[@no1guy825]

there's only a few people that "come back" and not all of them have it cool. Not everyone ages gracefully. Selina is old. She was cool, but...what was her identity in the old media? Even now, how is her current trajectory supposed to transition into old age in a way that keeps her fit, or in fighting shape? Oliver has a cause. Batman and Gordon and Joker all have missions and obsessions. Miller imagined a lot of death and harsh changes in future Gotham, and Selina may have lost her way. Don't look up his take on Dick Grayson!! Lol. It'll break your heart.

[@AustinFoss00]

I'm a little confused by you thinking they did Selina "Dirty". She retired after years of cat burglary and anti-heroism because her body couldn't keep up with that life anymore. She started an escort business to take care of downtrodden women who needed help, where she could watch over them and make sure they don't get with clients who may treat them like shit. Why would it be doing her "dirty" that she was sad at Batman's funeral? Her and Batman are an iconic love interest. She still loved him.

[@ramesmontgomery5663]

Oliver queen is green arrow