Human Impact, Extinctions, and the Biodiversity Crisis with Corey Bradshaw | TGS 136

[@thegreatsimplification]

NB: my own take on human population will be in the AMA Frankly out this Friday morning

[@ryanswick]

Looking forward to that. Fyi, Tom Murphy just had a blog series on human population and he showed that even as early as the late 2030s we may see the the peak, even accounting for Africa continuing its rise.

[@thegreatsimplification]

@@ryanswick yes Tom will be on the next Reality Roundtable discussing that - out in 3 weeks

[@paranoah8550]

It took a long time to get to this topic. I know people in the west are hesitant to talk about this because, i have been told, it reminds them of eugenics. But the human population is a problem and trust me, we in the most populated regions are suffering the most. I will post a detailed comment on the condition of women and its link to population. For now I will give just one fact to chew on- UN numbers show that almost half the pregnancies in the world are unintended. Yes, some are pleasant surprises for happy couples, but the majority are not

[@antonyjh1234]

23 countries are going to lose half their populations over the next 80 years, the world had 400% growth the last 80 years, it will be lucky to be 40% the next 80. I would like the option explored that we could be at peak destruction, China for example is due to lose 600 million, Japan another 50 million and this is the reason I feel that govts haven't done anything regarding global warming, but as population declines they will take the credit. Add : While I understand higher numbers will mean high levels of consumption, poverty that is coming and the countries that consume the most losing high consumers is going to have an effect. Africa though with the possibility of being almost half the world and money pumping could mean things don't change but green energy could be what power's them, we don't have the copper to make electric vehicles for them but we also don't have the materials for ice cars. 20% of our energy being electricity, the worlds largest irrigated crop is the lawn, we could go through massive change but hope does persist and change isn't happening now because to most people there is no emergent response as they are kept ignorant by their own governments/systems. 90% of people don't fully realise the problem, by design.

[@kiedranFan2035]

I always thought that global population will peak in a couple decades and then drop by about one billion per decade before leveling off at around 2 billion ish people by centuries end. All the while aging being a thing of the past this decade based on presently accumulated research

[@robcook8244]

None of these interviews shock me anymore. Infact, it's refreshing to see honest, open discussion of the mess we're in and what possibly lays in store.

[@janevt1200]

Former hospice nurse here. We had a joke that Americans think that death is optional. One thing parents can do for their kids is to be honest with them about death -- pets, grandparents, other relatives, family friends. Our kids spent time with their dying grandparents, and were at the deaths of 2 of them. When their dad was dying, they were able to be present with it. I see that it really helps them in their lives. My 2 cents.

[@claudelebel49]

An excellent comment . it's not as if we are going to live forever. Nothing does.

[@mikeharrington5593]

Yeah it kinda highlights how huge swathes of western civilizatiin actually shy away from reality.

[@hcrone]

I knew a guy who used to say “If I ever die…”

[@richardv.2475]

I'd say some people have very serious problems with facing and coping with reality and our culture is not really helping them to turn into the right direction.

[@eikegermann7469]

I’m in nursing training right now, partially due to listening to Nate (who I found via Daniel Schmachtenberger and not the other way around, interestingly enough) and I’m very interested in palliative care and perhaps becoming a death doula. I think we’re in for a lot of pain and aren’t ready for it.

[@DoublasMkII]

I'm finding it increasingly difficult to care about what society has deemed important-one's career, the accumulation of wealth, the promotion of status-when our chasing of these pursuits is tied directly to the "highest magnitude mass extinction event that has ever occurred in the history of planet Earth." It's especially daunting given that some attention to these pursuits is necessary to survive within the system that we live. These last few years have felt like an eternity. I've been anxiously waiting for something to breakthrough and correct our trajectory. Unfortunately, I'm not sure any one thing will make us change course. Our civilization will doggedly persist until the damage done to our planet is irreversible. We've been brought into this world during the beginning phases of an apocalypse. One set in to motion by our forebears, a bunch of clever, but ultimately thoughtless apes. The reality of our situation is beyond absurd.

[@AntonOfTheWoods]

This

[@Captaintrippz]

History shows all civilizations end when the resource propping it up dwindles. Whether that resource is Crops, Gold, Youth, faith, soil nitrogen, etc etc etc. Always an evolving system that booms and busts as needed. Rome fell to many things, the Caliphates fell, the great Bronze age civilizations fell and yet here we still be. Love of oil(energy), easy money, and cheap resources isn't really new. All we can do is ride the wave and make the best choices we can.

[@Joeyjojoshabbadoo]

You said it, bud. Couldn't agree more. Even worse, that the pursuit of those vain pleasures and satisfactions, are only facilitated because we live in and have built this incredibly destructive industrial society. What would a career even mean, and the money/status secured, without this society itself? What would there even be to pursue? All of our lives, our sense of ourselves, our hopes and dreams and fears, and certainly our material fortunes, all utterly and intimately bound up in and beholden to this doomed technological world. It's definitely a bit overwhelming that first dawning awareness of something so heavy. Easy to understand the strong impulse to deny it or run from it....

[@Twisted_Cabage]

Well said. 👏👏👏💯

[@antonyjh1234]

The question is how to turn it around when govts in power only care about business. Money is debt incurred by bankers and governments, we all clamour for it because ancient people said gold was the flesh of Ra and people received a benefit when giving it those in power. How many people will refuse pay rises, how many people will stop working or earning to a basic level only. Unless the dollar collapses and we change to a system of say carbon value of things, money will always be a ticket to energy and how many people are emitting half the energy than they did ten, twenty etc years ago? Not many by choice.

[@ImproveYourMagic]

It’s funny hearing Nate apologize for posting what makes me a subscriber.

[@Stupidityindex]

"We are a depressed bunch" GM has been telling us for 15 years, the published data says humans may be gone by 2026. I can see that in the arctic ice extent plot.

[@chrismullin8304]

@@StupidityindexI think Guy Mcpherson sees the collapse acceleration will be quicker than most expect. Humans are soft.

[@Twisted_Cabage]

Agreed. Hey Nate, we want the controversial stuff. A lot of the more touchy-feely episodes are hard to watch. This is exactly the content I subscribed for. Please don't get to high on hopium with the touchy-feely episodes. Push those guests harder with more difficult questions. We don't have time to kiss the butts of the guests.

[@ryanking463]

I often did the same while attempting to teach university students on the severity of these topics. Now it seems time to move beyond grief and guilt and coddling: biodiversity is in collapse, war and conflict are rampant, we are tracking beyond worst case scenario in even the most pessimistic models. Progressive solutions don't seem to be emerging from the cultures stuck in grief. The situation reminds me of a bit of dialog in a film written by Cormac McCarthy: "...when it comes to grief, the normal rules of exchange do not apply, because grief transcends value. A man would give entire nations to lift grief off his heart. And yet, you cannot buy anything with grief, because grief is worthless..." Find fun ways to preserve, protect, restore a bit of biodiversity and prepare for things to change very rapidly.

[@denisemillar9146]

Thank you, I feel the same way! ​@@Twisted_Cabage

[@garyclifford5368]

Thank you Nate. It's refreshing to listen to like minded people. Corey is fantastic. I am also an older white man from a rich country. About 15 or 20 years older than you two. But, I am not wealthy or intellectual. In fact I have a severe learning disability and I have been in the labor force for most of my life. I think you under estimate people like me. We are actually more open to the fact that mankind has screwed up. Maybe you could take a few steps down the ladder and target people that are less educated but, more likely to accept the situation. Most highly educated people are profit driven and are insulted by everything you speak of. Hourly wage folks understand we are all getting screwed 😅

[@burningproblem]

You give me hope, brother.

[@leonstenutz6003]

Deeply appreciate you comment. Blessings from a white, male latinamerican (Bolivian/Austrian).

[@magneticpitch]

thank you for saying that... it can be easy to forget about how many smart caring wonderful people there really are on this planet.... these things need to be talked about. the more people that know, the better chance we have of surviving

[@crispycritter9163]

One more wage slave here, who agrees with you.

[@waynebollman]

That's an excellent point. The people who have the least to lose (perceptively) are probably going to be more open to this information and more inclined to share it.

[@yaesyapanama353]

Dear Cory. I´m so grateful to you for saying these things out loud, especially from your position. I hope your message reaches and sinks in with people far and wide. Climate science too often doesn´t consider the interplay between the biosphere and the other Earth systems, which is really frustrating to biologists, ecologists and the likes. We did our PhDs at Otago University at the same time, but I had lost sight of you.. congrats on your amazingly prolific career. More of this, Nate, we need to hear what´s really going on and what´s likely to be in the pipeline, or else we tend to downplay the severity and urgency of the situation.

[@leviahimsa]

For every 1 human baby born today, there are 570+ other babies born onto farms to use resources and be prematurely killed. 925 million humans (1 in 9) suffer from hunger, yet 80 billion unnaturally bred animals on farms are given enough human edible food that could support 4 billion humans directly. -University of Minnesota

[@dalebirononpoetry]

Nate, you continue to bring on guests who combine both head and heart, in stunningly powerful ways. Corey Bradshaw is a perfect example of a brilliant scientist with a huge heart, and perspectives that are both sobering and paradoxically inspiring at the same time. For me, the only kind of hope that works, is intelligent hope. Hope that considers the facts, the deep and beautiful mysteries, together with what is actually possible. I'm reminded of a brilliant poet, Wendell Berry who famously said: "When despair for the world grows in me and I wake in the night at the least sound in fear of what my life and my children’s lives may be, I go and lie down where the wood drake rests in his beauty on the water..." Lastly, I am totally down with Corey's 3 practical suggestions: ...reduce child mortality, get rid of public companies, and make political donations illegal... (Let these three, be...)

[@rapauli]

Thank you Nate, for your persistant curiosity. This is so important.

[@Stupidityindex]

Thanks, I remembered the human population growth curves were not affected by war & pandemics, a counterintuitive; this time, I heard how it works in reality.

[@annmorrow9884]

Finally, you are mentioning the unmentionable. Thanks

[@j85grim4]

This. I have been bugging him to confront this issue for over a year.

[@troygoss6400]

This is the topic no one wants to address. The only podcast who deal with this topic is overpopulation podcast.

[@MichaelLaFrance1]

Billionaires, like Elon Musk, are pursing the opposite strategy. They keep saying the biggest enemy is 'population collapse', and are fighting to expand the human population. Their theory has become widely accepted. Many nations are now pursuing programs to increase birthrates to protect their individual economies. It seems counterproductive.

[@cmonc1984]

It's one of many topics that people in government positions etc. generally don't want to address, but it has been addressed by many. Generally accepted views are always at least decades or sometimes centuries lagging behind the frontier of knowledge and wisdom. Too bad governments generally have to please the ignorant majority, so they have to lag behind too in their views, or they'll get no votes.

[@mrrecluse7002]

Yeah, it's the ultimate taboo, most unfortunately.

[@Steve-m8s]

The government issues driver's licenses. They need to issue birth licenses. 🙄

[@coweatsman]

@@Steve-m8s Or at the very least stop paying people to have children.

[@RodBarkerdigitalmediablog]

Thank you Nate and Corey, my heartfelt gratitude for this episode's insights on the rapid decline in biodiversity and the impact of human overpopulation (boom = bust). Corey, your analysis on how the Earth’s carrying capacity has been exceeded, and the dire consequences of continued overconsumption, was both enlightening and sobering. As you noted, “Even if we live in a completely eco-friendly way and have very low per capita consumption... we will still take resources until they’re gone.” This stark truth shows the necessity for immediate and substantial efforts to reduce our ecological footprint and to exist within planetary boundaries. Nate, your ability to facilitate such interesting and deep conversations and bring these critical topics to the forefront is needed. The discussion around the domino effect of species loss and its impact on the biosphere highlights the interconnectedness of our actions and the ecosystems health. As Corey mentioned, “We’re already seeing signs that the sixth mass extinction is underway,” which serves as a powerful call to action for all of us. Regarding Donella Meadows’ work on leverage points, I found several key points from her article highly relevant to our current socio-environmental challenges: Meadows stressed the importance of shifting our underlying paradigms to effect real change. She noted, “The shared idea in the minds of society, the great big unstated assumptions... constitute that society’s paradigm, or deepest set of beliefs about how the world works”​. This suggests there is an immense influence of collective beliefs and assumptions on shaping societal behaviours and structures. It highlights that to enact significant and lasting change, it's essential to challenge and shift these deep-seated paradigms. By altering the foundational beliefs that drive our actions, we can nature a the future we can envisage in our wisest of moments. Meadows highlighted the importance of Changing the goals of a system as a powerful leverage point. By redefining the ultimate objectives that guide system behaviour, we can fundamentally alter how the system operates and its outcomes. For example, shifting from a goal of economic growth to one of sustainability (not sustainable growth, or sustainable development) can redirect resources and efforts towards desired future scenarios. Your discussion touched on these principles, which inspires me to take actions within my community, to both challenge the business as usual paradigm and to offer alternative frameworks and narratives to strengthen neural networks that make the new paradigm that much more attainable. Thank you both for providing such a rich discussion.

[@BettieSommer]

As goals, why settle for "sustainability"? I propose health, wholeness, the healed, hale and the holy -- etymologically from one root. We seem to be blind to the obvious.

[@greenwavefitness7545]

great conversation. recognizing corporations as the dark triad monstrosities that they are. 'stock markets are the single worst invention of humankind'

[@pinchebruha405]

Ive not invested because I felt it was the embodiment of ‘Money is the Root of all Evil’ it’s just never looked right too me, just legalized gambling 😢

[@kitesfun]

@@pinchebruha405 Same with investing in gold or silver: the worst hard rock mining is for gold, silver, uranium. Don't support any of these toxic INDUSTRIAL systems. On an already collapsing biosphere, the least we can do!

[@viscondedesabugosa7867]

we need revolution now! And look at that, there is already a manual for this task right here for extra fun: www.files.ethz.ch/isn/126900/8008_FDTD.pdf

[@mr.makeit4037]

It's a topic that must be addressed, Nate.

[@rcm929]

Wow. Just wow. Every TGS interview is five star quality and urgency in my book. But this one , with the key points made by Corey, especially the three top priorities he outlines including his magic wand answer, put this in the top three all-time interview episodes.

[@dankoepp68]

TGS being prefaced with a triggerwarning, makes me long for the days when my ignorance was omnipresent and the feeling of bliss glorious. I am undecided yet which feels worse - then, now or the combination of both?

[@coweatsman]

The fact that trigger warnings are given is a statement on a society which is "entitled" to always have good feelz. With that frame of mind I can not see a healthy smooth transition to civilisational trauma to come can be realised. It seems that a trail of tears is our future for our too easily triggered helicoptered pampered population. We breed victims today instead of resilient people.

[@nirvonna]

Perhaps the top podcast of The Great Simplification yet. I love taking the Deep Time, Big Picture perspective. It is fascinating! And I have no illusions that our species is so special, to the contrary.

[@cameronveale7768]

Great honest chat about the biggest issue our species fast. Too damn many of us - like a horde of locusts that consume food, minerals, plants life , soil etc. Will be listening a second time soon. Thanks Nate for a fascinating guest and education

[@mrrecluse7002]

Congratulations for getting that core issue, that deal breaker of all deal breakers that needs to be understood on a planetary scale, but gets the scantest of discussion.

[@2bNot]

The behaviours are what disheartens me the most. A true Rat Race, only worse. One look at the behaviours of 'israel', being fully funded by the USA and supported by major nations, at the political level, I think guarantees the dismal fate of humanity. We do not deserve to exist. Look at what we do. What we fail to stop. It is so shameful.

[@SSS11193]

This was absolutely fantatsic. Pleaase get Tom Murphy and Bill Rees back on.

[@martoantoniuk]

This was the best interview about the subject I have seen. Thank you for making it, both of you

[@KatharsisderWelt]

Why are we talking about replacement rate? Don't we need to shrink and not maintain a population level that is currently causing climate and ecosystem destruction?

[@naturewonders3604]

Exactly 💯

[@brianjacob8728]

Pollution and ecosystem destruction? Yes. Climate change? F no. We are coming out of the last ice age. Of course things are going to warm on their own. Co2 is a good thing btw, if you want plants to grow and food to eat. Quit buying the propaganda meant to eliminate you.

[@rdlewis3616]

Exactly!

[@Rosemountainfarm]

I think a slower population decline will maybe make a bend not break scenario?

[@Insomni_maniac]

Technically, we have more than enough resources to maintain a population 3x what it is now. The problem isn't resource shortage. Wealth and resource distribution and systematic corruption is the problem. We've lost our purpose in favour of materialistic consumerism. We are nothing but money farms for the elite.

[@futures2247]

the incredible unbelievable delicate balance in such mind boggling complexity is jaw dropping to reflect on - how the hell did all of this come together?

[@beefandbarley]

Time, time, time and feedback loops.

[@Jim-w7n]

I am from British Columbia and absolutely concur with his analysis that trappers had a vested interest in maintaining natural habitat. It was a huge mistake killing the Canadian fur trade because it removed trappers from the land leaving it wide open to industrial exploitation. It is a pattern repeated again and again, remove from the land those that earn their life from the land so that industrial exploitation has free reign.

[@voidisyinyangvoidisyinyang885]

the first military fort in my area - the men who built it were eating six pounds of meat a day!! They quickly extirpated the local wildlife - relying on the native hunters to supply the meat. The fur trade devolved to lower value animals - and the native hunters were finally forced to eat muskrats. Northwest Fur company for James Jacob Astor was based on definitely over-exploiting the wildlife with alcohol used to destroy local standards of respecting wildlife.

[@antonyjh1234]

How did removing trappers that would not have been able to supply current humanity leave it open for industrial exploitation, businesses that we are the customers of?

[@reuireuiop0]

The word Forest is derived from an old Latin term meaning area set apart for harvest from nature. Mostly that would be hunting, but also that "forest" could be used to fatten pigs on acorns and nuts. The local noble man would own the rights and license whoever could come to hunt or feed farm animals. Stands of trees that fits not have this kind of protection, would be overexploited, become craggy and disappear. That's why Forest in the long term become synonymous with large stand of trees. There wouldn't be any other woods with big trees left. Reckon the same will happen with all nature areas that have no formal terms of protection - in particular, in the Global South

[@michaelstevens6762]

Thank you Nate for that interview. In my opinion, Corey articulated ecological, population, economic and political summaries that were amazingly clear, scientifically grounded, and ethically framed - of the 45-50 TGSs I have watched, his "maps" of the terrain were the best for my purposes - like my generation's paper topo maps - drawings of the terrain, not successive pixelations of the view. I was flatout gobsmacked. Thank you both.

[@garyjohnson1466]

I'm a lay person who understands the gravity of what's happening, an people. Wonder why I'm just skeptic that humanity will change.....it's difficult not allowing depression to overwhelm you, anyways great discussion thank you !

[@2bNot]

Humans. Quantity up. Quality down. Enjoy what you can because our fate is sealed.

[@rachel-kx5cs]

Thank you both very much for speaking the truth out loud. 💔👣🫂👣

[@coweatsman]

Nat's pronunciation of Flinders's Uni quite amusing, as an Adelaide resident myself. The fact that trigger warnings have to issued because some point of view "may hurt our feelz" is a sad indictment of our society. In the approach to civilisational collapse it is imperative that stoicism be taught in school at all level and that we cease rewarding and encouraging entitlement and victimhood.

[@judithmacdonald363]

An absolutely great discussion! Thank u both!

[@davehendricks4824]

Never thought I’d say I’m glad I’m 71. Nothing I didn’t know or already assume from this podcast. I’ve simplified my life and take it day by day.

[@voidisyinyangvoidisyinyang885]

Or you could fly to Africa to enjoy their hundreds of millions needing food assistance with some 30 million facing starvation. spice things up a bit.

[@davehendricks4824]

@@voidisyinyangvoidisyinyang885 can you imagine how much worse it’s going to get for those people?

[@voidisyinyangvoidisyinyang885]

@@davehendricks4824 yeah I visited the most traditional Berber village in Morocco in 1997 - they just gone one light bulb per adobe house for a couple hours of electricity each night. Otherwise - totally self-reliant using humanure composting to grow wheat and vegetables in the desert for thousands of years!! Now Morocco and Spain have severe drought and the famine will kick in fast. They think rain harvesting will save them? Tragic. All our high-tech freedom has caused Mother Nature to take revenge - unleashing the 1200 gigatons of pressurized methane in the world's largest ocean shelf while the scientists wax nostalgic.

[@bonniepoole1095]

Excellent! More context and new perspectives increases our understanding. Slowing the inevitable is worth doing.

[@steveberkson3873]

So,so relevant,the exchange at the hour mark. I’ve felt it(as I’m sure many others have) for years,how to emotionally handle the doom of our collective malaise)..truly a pertinent topic. Thanks

[@weblightstudio8215]

There is no way out. It has been obvious to people long back in the 1960's that the planet was a limited resource. Many of us have been fighting to change the direction of progress as long as we have been alive. It has been gut wrenching watching every bit of deep ecosystem develop into places humans could access and ruin

[@Nahsorry]

Hi Nate, thanks for this chat (as a fellow Aussie it was nice to hear such a validating perspective which is so rare in this country). For the population round table please consider Nandita Bajaj - an eloquent university professor and podcaster like yourself 👍

[@paranoah8550]

+1 for Nandita Bajaj

[@petersmith5695]

Please get Corey Bradshaw back, don't forget!!!

[@freeheeler09]

Here in the US, we humans are paving over farmlands and wildlands at ever faster and faster rates! Our cities sprawl across ever bigger swaths of the landscape. And, we are using more and more resources, so the ecological footprints of our cities, the amount of farmland and forests grazing land and fish habitat grow bigger every year.

[@vincentkosik403]

But I was told by former girlfriends that the human population was not in overshoot ...ask most woman of child bearing years

[@antonyjh1234]

1% of the area of the earth is considered built up, the production of cement sure but cities per se over farmland is not the issue. There is the same amount of energy in a tank of diesel than my entire electrical consumption over an Australian summer, actually 3.2 months, with the air con going 24/7. Driving and our consumption of oil, that all our lives revolve around is. Going for a Sunday drive does far more damage than people seem to realise. A person could live off grid and if they drive to the city or get their goods delivered they are doing worse than the people who live in the city and walk to the market.

[@Heavilymoderated]

In my experience, the problem of population is the hardest sell for most people. Even people who know about how some invasive species can decimate ecosystems. They just don’t want to consider the possibility that they shouldn’t have so many kids, or consume at will.

[@Steve-m8s]

I'm going to ponder that over a bowl of chocolate ice cream.

[@coweatsman]

Humans are the original invasive feral species. It's sad that even environmentalists do not see humans as part of the eco system as a free floating detached species.

[@manichaean1888]

Look around yourself. How many people have two kids or more. I bet not many, unless you live in Sub-Saharan Africa. The demographic crisis that we are fast approaching is far more serious for the humankind than the ecological problems.

[@Heavilymoderated]

@@manichaean1888 Nothing is more important than the ecological problems. We can’t live without a functioning ecosystem. The infinite growth model that is capitalism is not a sustainable long term plan. Things are going to change, whether the economists like it or not. You’ve got bigger things to worry about than some supposed demographic crisis.

[@manichaean1888]

@@Heavilymoderated Without humans, the ecology will be much better, on that I agree. Does it worth it... I doubt.

[@troygrant9585]

Fabulous interview with Corey Bradshaw. Reducing child mortality(a revelation), educating women, ending corporations, stock exchanges and political donations, making family planning and contraception widely available to get our population down to around two billion around mid 1900 numbers in one century without human caused and natural disasters would make life great for all life. I like to say, there is no poverty in a healthy ecosystem. Thanks for a most important interview. BTW, Elon and CEOs want population growth not only for their economic growth but also for cheaper labor.

[@troygrant9585]

Plus Elon would want more people to populate Mars 😵‍💫

[@rd264]

reform per your list will never happen. Tragedy of the Commons. overpopulation will get worse until there is die off. Paul Ehrlich etc suggested 2 billion humans was a sustainable limit which was estimated to be the world population ~ 1970.

[@topherdean1024]

15 years ago I called the Director's Office on Climate at NOAA and spoke to a staffer for about half an hour. She said, "If you could see the data that crosses my desk everyday, you'd be terrified." I told her I've already seen enough and I am terrified, and heartbroken. She further said, "Everyone one in this office is really upset. Everyday they go up to the Capitol to beg the politicians to listen but they never do."

[@gtromble]

I'd push the button. People may be full of worry already, but you can only worry about so much at a time. Better to be worried about the reality of global heating and extinction than things that don't matter nearly as much.

[@kevinrauber8117]

another great guest another brilliant interview

[@dustibecker4233]

Thanks guys. Totally on target on need for women's health and education. Plenty of my African women friends do not want huge families, but it can be culturally hard to pull that off due to family pressures from husband and parents. Also, felt encouraged by the message to do what you can to reduce the demise of life.

[@brenda6161-y6i]

"The worst thing that ever occurred was the creation of the stock market" - yes! Another excellent episode. Thank you.

[@raven5347]

When Nate asked an example of an invasive species that had a big impact, my first thought was us/humans! thanks for the informative videos...

[@DrSmooth2000]

No other species would think to hate itself

[@angelozachos8777]

Humans do not scientifically qualify as an invasive species . We are a native species

[@raven5347]

@@DrSmooth2000 Truth does not necessarily denote hate…

[@DrSmooth2000]

@@raven5347 truth is a funny word since believe comments here set to auto delete If was fluke, will ask what truth do you see?

[@justcollapse5343]

THANK YOU - @Team for having this important conversation. Catastrophe is unavoidable. In fact, it is already here. Yes - empower women everywhere! - every child not born is one that neither contributes to #collapse, nor suffers from it. Everybody has the right to know - #TalkCollapse

[@ancientsage4071]

From the perspective of a geographer I think we need to understand that it will become increasingly important for people to regain a sense of "place". The answers are very geographically variable. We may get depressed that we don't have much control over the global situation but we can discover the best ways to live comfortably in our own local environment when we tune out the outside voices and listen to our own "place". There is no one right way. In defense of cats, we need to be all like them and just do our own thing. Diversity equals resilience. No sense bickering over city vs rural, etc. High rises may work someplaces while some places require you to spread out more. If you created a law requiring every new building to be self sufficient in terms of energy, water, and waste you would find out real quick what the environmental limits of any given place are and also spur new inventions. Scaling up is not always the answer. Things can be good with a little imagination.

[@ximono]

This is such a difficult topic, it's essential to tread carefully. Not for fear of triggering emotions, but for fear of utilitarian "solutions" to this issue. It's very easy to end up in Dystopia by trying to solve this problem using our left hemisphere, as McGilchrist would say.

[@TheGhungFu]

Too many humans, not enough Planet. Planets don't bargain.

[@antonyjh1234]

In my opinion it is our systems not humans. The lawn is the worlds largest irrigated crop, that we water with filtered water, fertilise and trim with a fossil fuel machine, so it looks nice..

[@TheGhungFu]

@@antonyjh1234 Not humans? Humans, whose fundamental behaviors haven't changed much for millennia?

[@antonyjh1234]

@@TheGhungFu Humans are products of their environment, just like any other creature, and if system change was implemented would you blame or congratulate them? I think blaming humans for being humans is defeatist, it makes people think there is nothing we can do as this is the way it's always been instead of looking forward to what is possible.

[@kitesfun]

@@antonyjh1234 Yup, overpopulation is secondary to our "civilised" way of living. It's characterised by obscene levesl of energy throughput and toxic levels of consumption. We in "first world" countries live as if there are 5-10 biospheres, and the only one here, is in collapse at rates never seen before. As pointed out by Corey and Nate right here! WCASAFU (We "civilised" are soooooooo absolutely f**ked up!)

[@2bNot]

​@@antonyjh1234Here we go...an apologist for humans !! Visited Gaza lately ? Done a tour of the 'israeli' torture Camps at all ? Blaming it on "grass" How pathetically ignorant.

[@dereksnyder_4244]

Y’all, I’m so far down the rabbit hole on this, that I’ve become a total dysfunctional mess. I cry almost daily. I don’t know how to process any of this, or stomach it. So much grief. I’ve lost people-I’ve felt personal grief-but this seems so different. How do I get out of bed and be present for my life and the lives of friends and family? I simply don’t know how.

[@EmmaSolomano]

It can be so hard to feel the grief without falling into despair. I found local, super small scale action to be what helps me. Something I have control over. Planting one seed. Doing one small good deed for a neighbour.

[@kathybehlen7088]

I agree.​@@EmmaSolomano

[@DrSmooth2000]

@@dereksnyder_4244 seems banned from commenting on channel. But worth a last try here in your case. ♡World is not Ending♡ Era of Weedy Species of Impermanence not of the 《Bear Eagle Wolf 》

[@stephseckold4324]

The immensity of collective human impact on this paradise planet and all life on it is overwhelming to any who even begin to look. As individuals, what can we do? I cope only by 'doing things' that are within my realm of influence. I think of it like this- Humans have been the agents of destruction, instead, become students of Life. The energy of 'Life' is to grow and reproduce. A single tree has the potential to set seed for hundreds more. In its lifetime, it is home to thousands of insects, birds, micro-organisms, it changes the temperature, wind direction, soil type, water holding capacity etc. If you only plant one tree, you have set in motion the future growth of possibly millions of life forms- a small action echoing into eternity.

[@colleenmacinnis935]

I so like be hearing truth spoken. It’s a refreshing

[@j85grim4]

Exactly. This show has had nothing but hopium peddlers for the last 6 months.

[@verito2019]

​@j85grim4 I like the opium peddlers too 🧘🏻‍♀️ 🕉

[@elainediamond7572]

“ We’re using about double what we could possibly replace”. Thank you Corey Bradshaw for your intelligence and courage. Few are willing to discuss population because it’s a taboo subject most don’t want to hear. We have to realize what it takes to raise sane adults, especially today. It’s the profound ignorance of people raised to be disconnected from reality that have created this situation. In a democracy we are so ignorant people have voted in a predatory government.

[@oliveoribu347]

OMG, I am mourning already... Not for us humans, who have been so cruel and destructive, but for the rest of the species. I have reduced my consumerism to the bare basics of food and tools I need in my daily life, and that won't matter, but at least it helps my conscience. In my opinion, we deserve what's coming to us.

[@keithomelvena2354]

Great guest. Mirrors my own understanding of our situation.

[@davidwalker2942]

43:47 Why would we not expect a vast reduction in insects based on the windshield evidence? Millions of grim reaper devices (cars and trucks) at high speed combing the area above roads seems sure to cause a drastic reduction in insect populations over time.

[@RjbigIamMe]

Yes I remember cleaning windshield daily. Now hardly ever have to because of bugs🙀

[@leonstenutz6003]

Also insecticides, bigAg, mining, pharmaceutical runoff, deforestation, dissecation of ponds, lakes, rivers, wetlands, less water, less life...

[@antonyjh1234]

The percentage of world area that is roadway is 0.3%. 99.97% of the mass of the atmosphere is 100klm/62 mile high, the move towards crop foods which require huge amounts of pesticides would be much more detrimental than CO2 as it all stays in this tiny sliver of area. Synthetic fertilisers, herbicides affect groundwater and crops which are virtual deserts for insects are grown in huge tonnages, far more than what we grow for animals.

[@naturewonders3604]

Insect decimation is linked to pesticides. It's the sole cause.

[@lucydownes5220]

@@leonstenutz6003 And here in Australia bush fires of the intensity and regularity we are now getting them have decimated our insect population. We lost 60 billion in 2020.

[@someblokecalleddave1]

I've always kind of understood this since being about 12-13 years old (Born 1960). Increasingly distressing for me as you can see it happening around you.

[@eugeneclark5316]

How did cats come ahead of humans as the most destructive invasive species ? We are species who introduced the cats!

[@antonyjh1234]

Cats were domesticated 10 or so thousand years ago, we didn't invent cats, they have been around 10-12 million years. Cats being carnivorous mammals that can have three litters a year with up to 12 kittens, average being four so 12 a year is different to humans.

[@dalewolver8739]

This was a very good episode. Got to have him back

[@blindpuppy7786]

I prefer to know the truth of our predicament no matter how dark or foreboding. That isn't true of many people but their feelings should not take precedence over biophysical reality. If you were a passenger in a car that was careening into an obvious accident, you would at least try to communicate that fact to the driver. Their ability to maintain cheerful optimism would not be your primary concern.

[@emceegreen8864]

Bucky Fuller pointed out the way to change a system is to create a more attractive system in parallel. The attraction will draw in the needed resources. Fighting produces resistance. Throw a better party and watch what happens.

[@CyanAblaze]

Corey's description of population growth in a high child mortality world is very interesting, competely not what I would have thought. This is so complex. Its like humanity does not exist in "one" society... it is always a superposition of many societies. And the society we see is the just the one that us pulled to the forefront by our environment.

[@voidisyinyangvoidisyinyang885]

that's the historical truth. poor farmers have tons of babies for free labor. So the higher the death rate, the higher the population growth rate to replace the loss. Same thing happened right after world war 2.

[@harveytheparaglidingchaser7039]

There is a well established link between parental education and child mortality. That's important, so Nate you were right education is important

[@piltdownman5592]

Hey Prof! Your work is essential. We rarely miss an installment. This episode was spot on and probably one of the most important discussions for humanity to experience. Yet, I find it curious that the show notes would reference the New World Encyclopedia when addressing "placoderms" (18:05). Are you aware of the fact that the originator of the New World Encyclopedia is none other than the Rev. Sun Myung Moon? (Remember the "Moonies"?) This begs many questions...

[@nirvonna]

This is one of the very best discussions ever on this podcast, on this topic. I’m going to listen again. I was surprised to hear talk about the fairly distant future: 100(s) of years or so. My sources anticipate major collapse of civilization and human life in decades. When you take atmospheric science, feedback loops, and the exponential function into consideration it seems that we could witness it all going down ourselves, in this current lifetime. Buckle up! Hang on to your hats!

[@DobrinWorld]

Thank you guys!

[@mythicalnomadadventure969]

This is a sad, ugly, even tragic overview of our future. I'm old and have had to listen to all the decades of denial. So yes, I'm angry ! Please keep true facts flowing . Thanks and... 👍 Rock on 🙂.

[@z.j.maayan8458]

Excellent discussion. Unlike what you propose, Nate, the knowing is hugely beneficial for me. It has helped change my perspective on the world and my own life and how I spend my time. Would you tell someone with terminal cancer they have cancer if there was absolutely nothing that could be done for it? Of course! We all have the right to face the truth if we are willing. I am not a believer in lying to people in order to keep the populace orderly.

[@websmink]

The healthiest attitude for me is to accept that there is not much I can do. And even as a near vegan, I don’t really want to care about the other cute creatures that Nate seems too concerned about. There is not enough bandwidth in anyone to include everything it even a small portion of what is ailing our planet. Life ends in death for everyone. I have a few years to live and I didn’t sign up for this. I will use all the energy and resources I need while I am alive and what happens in the distant future doesn’t concern me. Again I want to remind those who are depressed about whatever the future holds: you are not going stop the sun from eventually cooking the earth; nobody is going to be able to stop the next ice age or severe pandemic; and life is too short to cry about what can’t be avoided.

[@ianj5989]

There's a major issue that comes with a reducing population beyond capitalist profits. The pension/social security needs of a country is met by its current workers through taxes. If we have more people of pensionable age, and less younger people, a larger slice of the governmental pension/social payments burden falls on each worker. So you either have to tax people far more, or let your old people die. This is a massive issue facing all developed countries that I don't really hear anyone talking about.

[@DrSmooth2000]

Canada pioneers the MAID program. Netherlands and hear Ireland hot on heels

[@naturewonders3604]

There is so much tax money going to fund war mongers, and bureaucrats. Divert the money where it's needed instead of wasting it. The US alone spends a trillion tax dollars on war. It's no secret.

[@naturewonders3604]

I replied on this but YT re moved my comment. The internet is so controlled

[@AmeliaHoskins]

​@@DrSmooth2000Its disgusting.

[@douglasjones2814]

Nate, an excellent interview that tells it like it is. During the interview there was a brief reference to the work of the IPCC and its understatement of the future risks/challenges we face and it would be really good to have a reality Roundtable on the IPCC models and process to try to understand why this understatement. It would also be good to look at the interaction of fossil fuel interests and the IPCC process, especially the COPs. Profs James Hansen and Kevin Anderson are both critical of the IPCC for various reasons. Leave it with you. Thanks.

[@douglasjones2814]

I forgot to mention that, given the influence of the IPCC COPs on national governments, it is important to know why the IPCC process and reports are inadequate.

[@lizgarson321]

What a fascinating discussion. I look forward to the Round Table.

[@samcamps3707]

Where do you keep finding those magnificent guests? Excellent episode!

[@billg9502]

Overpopulation is our worst problemis very obvious with all its problems . Great show . Sadly most religions plays a big roll .W.A.S.F .

[@garethlamb4963]

👍

[@manichaean1888]

You are wrong. Our worst problem is depopulation. Everywhere except for Africa, the number of humans is drastically falling. In a few decades the humankind as a whole will be below replacement level. And then all the truly grave consequences will begin.

[@tonyvu1853]

@@manichaean1888 both are true. too many old. too few young. and too much and too little resources left

[@triplikeido75]

Thanks for this. The hard truth is why i follow your channel & podcast.

[@tylertron]

For coping mechanisms, I've turned to the philosophy of Stoicism. There is a lecture by Dr. Sugrue that touches on some fine points to keep in mind. Namely, that the stoic is someone who's main fear is to not be true to oneself. The classic, knowing what we can and can't change, and finding peace in that.

[@dannyfreemantle6492]

Oh, and I’m guessing there are a lot of factors missing from the population models like endocrine disrupter chemical exposure etc etc

[@bill8985]

Great discussion. Truly sad, but important.

[@arthurbode9237]

Great discussion. I have been, without having the scientific foundation to support it, preaching that we will probably survive as a species for a while but we are in for whole lot of hurt along the way. Sad in a way to hear that the science is starting agree but at the same time heartening to hear that others are thinking about this a deep level. Gives some hope that we might be able to mitigate the worst of it. Love the comments about youth. It matches the experience I have had with my children. Just trying to be decent human beings. Thanks for having the courage to confront the cognitive dissonance that has too date held us back. Even when it hurts, the benefits of education outweigh ignorance hands down.

[@rachel-kx5cs]

......I thank you both very much for speaking the truth. 💔👣🫂👣

[@spring9603]

All-in-all, excellent talk. Cory is on the right track.

[@chrisp5413]

Great interview!! Corey needs to be on again. And Nate, just look at the comments from your fans... people want to hear about this stuff (even though you dont)

[@stewartderekbarker-bo9kg]

👍👍👍✌️✌️✌️ Great. Podcast nate, real eye opener

[@taliaeve969]

I would love for you to interview Louis Perry as to the subject of population collapse. Shes wonderful.

[@horizon9638]

Great talk.

[@markschuette3770]

why can't we have polititions who know this info?????????????? we need to teach this in our schools at every level!

[@TimFrench-tx1xj]

Absolutely great!

[@seanfernyhough9342]

An excellent episode with a great guest.

[@lesbrattain6864]

Excellent! Tell it like it is. I have been peaching this for years and on one will listen.

[@michaelrynn2465]

Very illuminating discussion. More math modellers please. "We've outsourced our wisdom to the market". "Reduce child mortality. Eliminate public companies, and political donations".

[@sunrisesue]

Thank you! We need to hear this truth. Thank you Corey Bradshaw.

[@topherdean1024]

OK, WOW. It's so refreshing to watch two intelligent, well educated people discus the truth, unfiltered. THANK YOU!!! I would like to hear your input on something I realized a few years ago while reading an article on fusion in the New Yorker. It occurred to me that fusion wouldn't save us, and instantly, I realized that solar wouldn't save us for the exact same reason. That reason is, unlimited, cheap, clean energy would drive economic growth and everyone's standard of living would explode exponentially, and that would be death. The problem isn't with global warming, or plastics, or habitat loss, the problem is with our primitive drive to increase our advantage over others via a higher standard of living. I see that as a deeply intrinsic characteristic on a genetic level, probably within all organisms on Earth. Competition is death, cooperation is life. Of course, capitalism thrives on and drives greed and selfishness, so that would have to change. This is why when I'm in the street protesting, my sign says, "Earth is a finite sphere". Once I whittled the problem down to this lowest common denominator, I lost all hope. I still write letters, hit the streets, get arrested, prioritize personal choices, participate in politics, but I'm basically dead inside now. I've take a vow to go down swinging and I'll do that, but the button I would push would make people empathetic to all life and instill a desire to cooperate instead of compete. So glad my friend shared this video with me. Subscribing now and looking for Patreon.

[@ExtraordinaryJam]

Why? It doesn’t even matter in the end, we’re fucking doomed for a lack of a better word

[@Ussnoss]

great episode thank you

[@mrrecluse7002]

Of course, it's true that the evolutionary show of life must go on, maybe even after nuclear war. But to me, it's of little consolation. I can't get beyond my own sentimentality for the natural world we have known, and which is hanging on for dear life, despite our behavior. I love the current web of life, as if it were extensions of my own body.

[@Dan5482]

Excellent. Very informative video. Thank you, from Brazil.

[@avibortnick]

Amazingly informative discussion. Thanks Nate!

[@OldJackWolf]

I realized all this after a brief stint with a consulting firm that worked with frackers around 2010. Mind you, I had massive concerns about global warming even before taking that job, but I answered the call from the Obama administration about a clean and transitional fossil fuel play. (I was skeptical going in, BTW - I was right. It was neither.) But after resigning, what really scared the shit out of me was finding another scientist who reached the same conclusion. Then another, and another. Now, a dozen years later, it's everywhere. I write this to let individuals realize that yes, there is life after accepting what's to come. Its rough... it almost broke me, but now, over a dozen years later, life is ok. And moving my family north of the Mason Dixon and 400 miles back from the ocean certainly helped to suppress the anxiety that comes with this knowledge too. That, and joining an disaster aid organization where I work with the victims of fossil fuel combustion. Thank you and good luck to all of you.

[@AyeshaNadirAli.]

Brilliant talk by both gentlemen 👌

[@vincentkosik403]

AS a doomer, this was up my alley and made me feel Im right

[@alexstuart1849]

for me the gut punch episode was the leon simons one, but i've been pretty aware of these things for a while now

[@TheSpacemanjane]

Great to hear a fellow Australian speak on these matters. I had always been convinced that the European honeybee was driving native bee populations down and the native bees were the actual pollinators of our fruits and flowers. Good to know that I learnt something today! What did our native bees in Australia do before the European honeybee was introduced?

[@AyeshaNadirAli.]

Thank you ❤

[@alexanderthurber4257]

“Its intense… trigger warning” now i HAVE to listen 😅