The Defiant is Overrated!

[@climberly]

while i was watching this Sisko burst into my room, threw a baseball at my computer and screamed, "SHUT THAT THING OFF!" . I love him, but when it comes to his ship it's best not to say anything negative, unless you say, "The Defiant hasn't blown up enough stuff today."

[@venomgeekmedia9886]

legit cracked me up reading that one.

[@shadowvessel]

@@venomgeekmedia9886 Same 😂😂😂

[@johnrhoades6214]

hey I'm pretty sure there was only for defiance actually ever produced and they were all immediately built prototyped and put in the boneyardthat's how he got another one back so fast when the first one was destroyed because there was four of them identical in the boneyardI'm almost certain that that's been confirmed I can re-watch the episode where they discuss it

[@IronWarhorsesFun]

@@johnrhoades6214 basically it's an AMERICAN BOP. Super loud, super expensive, SO SMALL ITS YUGE.

[@jamesp8164]

@@johnrhoades6214 We only know of three in canon for certain. The Defiant (destroyed in combat), the Sao Paulo (which was renamed Defiant), and the Valiant (destroyed in combat).

[@kamenriderblade2099]

Once they "Mass Produce" the defiant, you'll be able to see the Defiant in it's natural habitat as a Swarm Vessel =D

[@chrisortega7521]

THANK YOU!!! Just look at “Message in a Bottle.” One Akira-class and two Defiant-class vessels took on THREE D’DERIDEX class vessels AND a Prometheus-class vessel without pause.

[@connannbarbarin3033]

​@@chrisortega7521 that was desperation. 3 D'Deridex would easily win vs 1 Akira and 2 Defiants. Now when i think about it 1 Akira and 2 Defiants are probably a patrol group.

[@chiroquacker2580]

@@connannbarbarin3033 In my non-trolling personal opinion that is not any more valid than your own personal opinion, I think the D'Deridex puts up a good fight but is ultimately overpowered. I'm thinking the Galaxy and D'Deridex are in the same neighborhood and 1 Akira = at least 1.5 Defiants. In my head canon it would take 3 Defiants to take out a TNG era Galaxy in a close fight, so 1 Akira and 2 Defiants should be able to take out a D'Deridex at a high cost. It could however just be my wishful thinking. I can't accept that any ship named "Enterprise" isn't going to kick ass and take names against any contemporary ships the Romulins, Cardiassians, and Klingons are using. I try to ignore the fact that the Enterprise D has a warp core that can breach if someone sneezes on it or that it was destroyed by a shitty Bird of Prey.

[@connannbarbarin3033]

@@chiroquacker2580 1 Akira and 2 Defiants should be able to take out a D'Deridex no problem, but there were 3 D'Deridexs in “Message in a Bottle.”! I would rate 1 akira=1 Galaxy (In a fight) maybe even 1.2 galaxy and ye 3 defiants=1 galaxy.

[@descendinguniverse]

Swarm Vessel like in star trek beyond? nah😄

[@jcoal5917]

I always felt like the Defiant was more akin to the A-10. Short Range, Ton of Firepower, and lots of survivability but is really only good at one thing.

[@venomgeekmedia9886]

my thoughts exactly.

[@andrecoleman9549]

@Darth Revan 🤔😉

[@nunya3163]

And after all these years, and all of the attempts to end the program, the A-10 is still irreplaceable.

[@venomgeekmedia9886]

@@nunya3163 if it ain't broke...

[@user-roninwolf1981]

@@nunya3163 This is actually the redeeming quality that can be used for the Defiant.

[@casbot71]

*Logistically* it's underrated. The smallness has another great factor. With just 40 - 50 crewmembers (I'll use the higher figure) needed and small enough that it can be built at a standard Starbase (and _'I'm sorry'_ in the Mirror Universe, at DS9 while under rebel control), it's only 355,000 tons so it doesn't need dedicated shipyards like standard StarFleet cruisers and frigates, it can be pumped out and crewed like a horde and swarm the enemy. As for burning through supplies and running cost - *Replicators* The Federation is a post scarcity economy… they can make spares, hell a Intrepid can rebuild itself from its own replicators and build the Delta Flyer in a few days. As for its application, *system patrol,* stick one at any important outpost or mid sized colony (in a hangar) and they no longer have to yell for help from a passing StarFleet ship - life for pirates is suddenly going to get a lot harder. A slightly de-tunned frontier version can be made, with a EMH and less maintenance requirements (although the maintenance in DS9 was because it was constantly being used in war at emergency power) - perhaps a Defiant Runabout hybrid. That would be a great deterrent to all the other powers. But the limitation for StarFleet building ships is the size of the shipyards able to cope with the mass of the ship… energy is very plentiful, they use transporters to as a taxi service on developed planets … So: Compare it's crew requirements and total mass to any other legacy StarFleet ship. Divide that ships crew requirement by 50 and that's how many Defiants you can get. And the Defiant can be commanded by just a lieutenant, with a flyboy pilot and a aggressive gunner. The only experienced crewmember needed is a engineer, the rest can be young hotshots. "Oh look, it's a upgraded Excelsior, prepare for a fight" "Oh look, it's fifteen Defiants, prepare for death"

[@Athrin01]

Defiant class is the Feds version of the Klignon b'rel class

[@casbot71]

@@Athrin01 And it eats those for a snack. What would be terrifying is if the concept of the Defiant was scaled up to the size of a frigate.

[@sagesheahan6732]

This.

[@Slavir_Nabru]

Couldn't agree more. In a society with replicators, people to maintain and crew starships is a far more pressing bottleneck than material resources for ship construction. The latter is practically infinite, the former is limited by the number of graduates that can pass through Starfleet academy. The class of 2380 would have far more firepower armed with defiants, than any previous Starfleet design.

[@gmradio2436]

Technically Star Trek is not a post scarcity setting. Materials such as Dilithium can not be replicated and still bottle neck production. Given similar amounts are needed to stabilize reactions in a Galaxy class and a Be'rel it probably takes the same amount for a Defiant class. At that point politics kicks in.

[@JakeWerkmeister]

It shot an aft photon at the Lakota, so they are armed with both torpedos. Tough little ship.

[@tyson31415]

Little?

[@bobbyrobbins9816]

Tough little ship took one good hit from a borg cube and then had no power. Lol.

[@RoseBunneh]

@@bobbyrobbins9816 between the time the Defiant engaged the borg and the time the Enterprise arrived was hours, if not longer. She had already taken severe damage and was still in the fight up until then. So she had likely been in the fight for a considerable ammount of time.

[@Athrin01]

the defiant is classified as a heavy escort but its role is more of a destroyers, its role is to put as much firepower on enemy ships, it technically defeated the USS Lakota and could take out Galor class ships. Ablative armor was equipped to almost if not all modern Federation ships, The Star Trek: The Next Generation Technical Manual also suggests that the Galaxy-class was fitted with an ablative hull layer, with "the outermost hull layer...composed of a 1.6 cm sheet of AGP ablative ceramic fabric chemically bonded onto a substrate of 0.15 cm tritanium foil. This material is formed into segments of approximately 3.7 m2 and is attached to the radiation attenuation layer by a series of duranium fasteners, which allows individual segments to be replaced as necessary." Defiant Class where designed to take on ships larger than herself and win, there is however a limit to how big a ship even a defiant class can take on.

[@jamesmagill5433]

Pretty much was okay with its armaments. It did raised my eye at first. Would say the energy weapons powered by an oversized warp core is plausible. But would have to say because of it small size the amount of torpedos it can carry should be limiting compared to other starships.

[@esecallum]

. IT DOES NOT MATTER What size the ship is because a torpedo is a torpedo is a torpedo. Example a a f-15 can destroy a city with a nuke or you can get a b2 bomber to a destroy a city with a nuke or you can get a aircraft carrier to destroy a city with a nuke. SIZE DOES NOT MATTER.

[@craigfalconer1205]

The Defiant class is meant to be an escort then when used in a fight is used in a swarm of three or a wing.

[@suhr65]

Agreed it's a escort ship. I doubt it's expensive also. The larger ships are very expensive. The Defiant is designed to be with another ship. As for cloaking its a small vessel. If they go to stealth they reduce power so that they are not seen. Its my guess its easier to cloak a small vessel than a larger one. It wasn't heavily produced because of its design flaws as stated in the first episode we see it. Galaxy class is a troop carrier, as we saw in DSN could be taken down by a few smaller ships with suicide tactics. The federation didn't really have war ships built till DS9. So i'm guessing it would take time for them to design and build ships that would be more effective in war. Compared to klingons and romulans that always had war in mind while designing ships.

[@Euripides_Panz]

@@suhr65 Aside from the loss of Odyssey and the 300 allied due to the Breen energy dampening, the Galaxy was still seen enduring the thickest front-line fighting. Even the new Dominion battleship is compared to a Galaxy as if it is among the best in the field. Even the Nebula earned distinction. Before an Akira and two Defiants managed to secure the (tactical vesssel) Prometheus, it was a Nebula that caught up to the ship and was an urgent threat until overwhelmed by the mult-vector assault gimmick.

[@Euripides_Panz]

@@suhr65 Defiant was merely designed as prototype for a fleet. Probably not an armada of large warships, more likely a larger number of "capable" ships expensive per pound, perhaps, but smaller average volumes, less bulk, reduced multi-role capacity, and no extravagance. A force of escorts (Defiant, variants) light escorts (lighter, shorter-range, but similar), fast frigates, heavy frigates, destroyers, DE, DDE, would be more than sufficient to bolster war fleets and easily transition to peacekeeping without the imposing presence characterised by the Negh'var, D'deridex, Vor'cha, and Valdore. In spite of the Klingon and Romulan preoccupation and commitment to warships, they are still prone to instability and civil war. This disproportionate allocation creates flawed designs. Aside from advantages of stealth, robust, thick hulls, ample firepower, and intimidating, the more common ships are inflexible. Klingon ships known for redundancy, are often disabled by common circumstances, or their crew's indulgences. Romulan ships are often disabled or destroyed by their own schemes, requiring embarrassing distress calls.

[@tachyontee3877]

Defiant class starships were never meant to operate independently; see Voyager's episode "Message in a Bottle" for example of effective usage of the Defiant class. The Akira Class ship in that group of ships in that episode came in laying down heavy fire on the Romulan Warbirds forcing them to focus on the Akira and take evasive action. During the initial volley of the Akira's fire in that episode, the Romulans went into disarray and the Defiant Classes closed the gap and started creating havoc for the Romulans. It's like when a squad machine gunner lays down heavy suppressive fire so the riflemen in the squad can rush or flank their enemy's position. Imagine receiving rotating frequency pulse phase cannon fire at point blank range where your targeting sensors are at a disadvantage. Big ships suck at defending against that; see the mirror universe battle against the Negh'Var. All the anti-Borg class ship classes were supposed to balance each other out making up for each other's shortcomings. You're not supposed to see a fleet of only Defiant classes. The fandom put forth that Defiant swarm fleet idea and of course the Defiant isn't for exploration. When not incorporated in a mixed battle group of anti-Borg ships, their assigned to fixed installations like DS9 and those installations provide suppressive fire for them to close the gap.

[@NashmanNash]

To this day i never figured out how an Akira and 2 Defiants even managed to catch up to the Prometheus...Did the romulans leave the hand break on or what?

[@jasonsylvander3089]

I've always thought the defiant was supposed to be like the whitestar from B5, flying in swarms..... too bad we never got it

[@vonshroom2068]

@Meanie Panini Yes and no. DS9 was a proof of concept before B5 but they most definatly copied the dominion war after the Earth B5 war. You can clearly see the shift during the 2nd season vs the actual dominion war seasons. Season 2 of DS9 they didn't know where they were going yet (TNG scripts still being used etc) but then they found their stride suddenly during the dominion war. Also the Wormhole Prophets and Cardasian Demons were a fun goof on the Vorlon and Shadows. Those two were really jarring considering the goofy god type aliens we've seen before DS9 in startrek.

[@JeffreyTappan-bb8rr]

Blame the writers

[@occultatumquaestio5226]

The Defiant is no Sovereign or Prometheus true; however she is still a tough ship that is about to is among the best at doing what she was designed to do. I think I recalled her going toe to toe will Cardassian Galors, so she does punch up her weight class into being able to take on light cruisers as well. Also with what you said about the two different interceptor jets, I'm also remined of the American Zumwalt class destroyers.

[@b-chroniumproductions3177]

Thomas Riker stated that he believed the Defiant could take on three Galors at once.

[@blairbrown4812]

one could make the argument that without the Defiant, there wouldn't be any Sovereigns or Prometheus' .

[@spacetechempire510]

Zumwalt class destroyers shure there expensive, shure there hard to maintain. But it’s not designed to be a effective first design. The design and development time suggest that the r&d team was at least trying to open a door or try to get more engineers to design. Newer modern ships for the US aging fleet designs and doctrine. (New long range missiles and stealth jets make career fleet almost obsolete in a gradually growing number of areas)

[@spacetechempire510]

Or at least inspire a new generation of Navi ship

[@NashmanNash]

@@blairbrown4812 The sovereign is probably the far older design though...After all,designwork on the Sovereign probably began in the early 2360s,same for the Intrepid class

[@CLF-rs4vj]

"Are you telling me, that one of the MOST HEAVILY ARMED WAR SHIPS in the quadrant is now in the hands of marquis terrorists"? (Gul Dukat describing the Defiant in DS9 s3 e9)

[@shadowvessel]

Gives me chills every time I hear it 😍

[@connannbarbarin3033]

well it sounds better then "Are you telling me, that one of the MOST HEAVILY ARMED WAR SHIPS in the quadrant is now in the hands of marquis terrorists? Well it could be worst...they could have taken a Nebula."

[@carlhannjr1062]

Thank you for posting this. In that same episode the Defiant also took out a Cruiser and it was also stated with this ship it will be a short fight. Referring to the other 3 Cruisers. Also, when the ship is introduced it is stated how the ship was so powerful it nearly tore itself apart during shakedown. Meaning the power of the ship was meant for a much larger ship.. The first time it fired it's phaser cannons at an attack ship it destroyed that ship. Something the Odyssey's type ten phasers failed to do. Interesting video but lacks evidence. So much more on camera evidence to prove the opposite.

[@mightymulatto3000]

That was the quote I was looking for.

[@shadowvessel]

@@carlhannjr1062 You know what I've never heard anybody on KZbin get right? The Defiant's pulse phaser cannons. Here's their description from the DS9 Technical Manuel: "...where large, nearly flawless emitter crystals had been grown in ground-based microgravity chambers. The new crystals, combined with rapid-discharge EPS capacitance banks and high-speed beam-focusing coils, allowed the phaser discharge to be stored temporarily (up to 2.3 nanoseconds) within the coils and then released as a layered pulse. The emerging pulse is structured something like an onion and is able to land a target contact that is more difficult to disperse than a standard phaser beam." So each pulse shot of the Defiant is the equivalent of one beam shot and more devastating. Also, nobody seems to remember the Klingon Negh'Var class warship the Defiant slapped around with the late assist from a fighter. And the Lakota was given the same upgrades as the Defiant. In effect, creating a larger Defiant. And the fact that the Lakota was trying to destroy the Defiant while they were only trying to disable the bigger ship gets brushed over

[@jodecideion]

Dude THe Defiant is what the Millennium Falcon wants to be! Not Overrated!

[@chiroquacker2580]

Millennium Falcon is a very different animal. An old beat up civilian light freighter held together with duct tape that has been souped up like crazy and had some laser cannons bolted on as an afterthought.

[@shadowvessel]

Yaasss...the Millennium Falcon with the firepower of a Star Destroyer🤘

[@tiagodagostini6233]

@@shadowvessel But smaller plot armor...

[@brucewayne2558]

@@chiroquacker2580 The Falcon is ghetto fab.

[@brucewayne2558]

@@chiroquacker2580 I think Honda makes them.

[@MrGlenn8]

It was the Federation first attempt at a warship. It was not intended to be a dreadnought or cruiser. It was design to be fast, maneuverable & inflict the most damage possible. It served it purpose in the Dominion war quite affectively. The largest ship I've seen it up against was a Borg Cube. It was then commanded by Commander Worf.

[@blackhawks81H]

Prepare for RAMMING SPEED!

[@Mrs.Grave5433]

And to 90s trek writers even then, the Defiant didn't magically tore up the Borg just put up a good fight, taking damage to the end. I have to agree with Venom, the Defiant isn't a mary sue ship, despite how tempting it could of been to make it so.

[@ransom182]

Thank you! Someone finally said it. The other thing about the Defiant is that a single hull breach had a good chance of knocking out multiple systems. Because it’s so compact her critical systems are basically all crammed in very close together.

[@robmckee5295]

Defiant was one of Starfleet's first serious baby steps towards making an anti borg ship after their NEVER AGAIN moment at Wolf 359, so it was going to have limitations.

[@venomgeekmedia9886]

a great point. firsts in any field are rarely pretty.

[@sagesheahan6732]

@@venomgeekmedia9886 it did apparently have enough power to almost fly itself apart during trials. Yeah. Not pretty.

[@jaymikevillanueva1212]

I like the Defiant-class, TBH. I really like the scrappy, no-nonsense design. What people need to understand about the Defiant is that it's an attack ship and used only for missions that takes advantage of what it can do. It's not meant to be a long range ship and it has its downsides. It's not meant for long durations either. It's also an escort ship, so part of it's job is to protect much larger, less maneuverable ships or bring the fight directly to the opposing fleet while bigger ships hang back and fire away at a distance. That alone is what makes it useful in heavy engagements. So what's the Defiant all about? Well, think of it as a brass knuckle or an iron fist. You're going to use it to hurt a much bigger opponent. Add more Defiant escorts (or other offensive-minded ships) and you have a force-multiplying swarm. It's literally a high performance fighter built to fight the Borg (but it can work against other warships). That's what's it's made for in the first place and Starfleet is very short-sighted at what it can do because it's too busy trying to play nice with everyone (hell, they're willing to trade territories to the Cardies.). I think the Defiant can be used for intelligence and special ops missions (especially if you calibrate the power ouput for a stealth mode if you add a cloaking device, holographic camouflage, or a sensor absorbing coating over the ablative armor); border patrol (especially in hotly contested areas), contraband interdiction, and a squadron of them for planetary defense.

[@martindevon3204]

The cloak was for reconnosense in the Gamma quadrant

[@chiroquacker2580]

In my personal head canon, the Defiant is a very powerful ship for it's size, but it is still a small ship. The Jem Hadar Attack Ship, Klingon Bird of Prey, and the Miranda Class are ships in the defiant's weight class and the Defiant is easily more powerful than any of them by a factor of maybe 1.5X. The Defiant can take on larger ships and hold it's own as we saw with the Lakota. I think Defiant would also do well against an Intrepid class which I would rate as being close to a Lakota refit excelsior. That said, I think it would take 3 Defiant class ships to overpower a TNG season one Galaxy Class. I also think she would be outclassed by a Nebula or Ambassador. Engineering is a process of give and take and making trade offs. Defiant is small, fast, and likely cheaper (or less resource intensive since the Federation doesn't use currency ) to build, but the trade off is that the size of things like the warp core, impulse, and weapons although formidable have to be limited in size and scope. Star Trek never gets into the nitty gritty of ship building and design, but I would think Starfleet ship design has to deal with constraints just like we do in the real world. A 737 can't carry 1000 passengers at mach 3 and IMO the Defiant can't have the firepower of a Galaxy or Sovereign Class.

[@esecallum]

you are wrong. TOTALLY WRONG. IT DOES NOT MATTER What size the ship is because a torpedo isa torpedo is a torpedo. Example a a f-15 can destroy a city with a nuke or you can get a b2 bomber to a destroy a city with a nuke or you can get a aircraft carrier to destroy a city with a nuke. SIZE DOES NOT MATTER.

[@user-roninwolf1981]

@@esecallum No, but you still have to target and aim, and if you miss the target, you just wasted a torpedo. For a ship with a limited payload, conservation matters.

[@esecallum]

@@user-roninwolf1981 are argument is totally irrelevant.

[@bobbyrobbins9816]

If it was very deadly then one shot should disable any other starship. Junk.

[@UkrainianPaulie]

One bug shipband goodbye Galaxy class.

[@creepysplatter9260]

The point of the defiant is not for it to be used as a large support cruiser like a galaxy class or ambassador class, the point is for it to be used as a small ship with large numbers to tear through things like Klingon birds of prey, or as you mentioned, jem hadar fighters. It is also useful to be used in a team with something like a galaxy class to serve perhaps as a scout ships or to engage smaller targets that are hard to hit with a big bulky cruiser.

[@nunya3163]

Or in a swarm to fight Borg cubes, as it would be more effective in this role, than the larger cruisers would be.

[@amorelus]

If you read the technical manuals, Defiant is a heavy escort. It's made to escort convoys or giant ships. It's not for exploration, just combat. If it was an escort for a civilian convoy it could annoy large capital ships and survive long enough for the big guns to arrive. If it was escorting capital ships. It was meant to go fast and get close to the enemy. The cannons are not accurate but does a lot of damage if you are close. BUT if you get close, you will get hit a lot. When I used the defiant on Star Trek Online, When facing a capital ships. I wait for my team to weaken one side of the ship. Since my team had capital ships, it took a long time for them to turn around and focus fire on that point. WIth the Defiant, I flew to that point easily and punched a massive hole in the shield, so my team can do more damage as they recharge. I was then able to fly out and repair. At least that's how I used it. It can really turn really fast to use as many weapons at once.

[@grndiesel]

USS Defiant: Lowrider from the ghetto with a stolen engine that puts out way too much power for its frame. AKA: "Ben Sisko's Pimp Hand" USS Enterprise D: Elitist Land yacht with warp engines made from recycled ford pinto fuel tanks. AKA "Don't scratch it!""

[@elliotyourarobot]

Agreed

[@invidofinp1828]

Double post. Yup the Akira took on 3 warbirds. While they went after the transformer...

[@kensmith2285]

I agree that it would be expensive to produce ships like this on a mass scale considering the technology and massive power consumption, but these ships like the steam Runner, the Akira, and all the other small tactical escorts are meant to work in tandem with each other and other large ships. That was the point of the defiant-class is to work in tandem with other vessels that may not be as maneuverable.

[@winkles2314]

“Why would you give a cloaking device to the loudest ship in the fleet?” You just answered your own question.

[@venomgeekmedia9886]

like putting a silencer on a 50 cal...

[@winkles2314]

Venom Geek Media 98 More like putting a perfect silencer on an AA12

[@TheDetailsMatter]

What the Defiant really needs is an FMS (Footprint Magnification System). As it drops out of warp, planetary defense arrays throughout the star system in question go on full alert against the new Death Star that just appeared in their midst. Starships warp in from everywhere to defend the homeworld against a Borg Cube or equivalent, but all their visual scanners can spot is this one tiny waffle-iron shaped ship of little apparent consequence.

[@robertkalinic335]

​@@venomgeekmedia9886 I mean thats completely possible, especially if the silencer would be as compact on the rifle as cloaking device is to the defiant. You would be moron not to take advantage of it.

[@michaelpietras7374]

I do seem to remember the Defiant taking down, not destroying, but definitely temporarily putting out of commission two Keldon class cruisers in the episode when Thomas Riker poses as his brother to steal the Defiant. Now Keldons essentially being beefed up Galors I would assume at the least they would be considered medium cruisers. Also, we see the Defiant go toe to toe with the Lakota, an upgraded Excelsior class cruiser, and give it a serious run for its money while intentionally pulling its punches. So while I somewhat agree with the notion of the Defiant being over rated, especially with regard to long range engagements and in its usefulness in long duration fleet deployments, I can't agree with the idea that it couldn't punch above its weight class as we see it on screen in the episodes I mentioned.

[@matthewblackburn8833]

I think the other reason why we don't see a lot of defiant class starships is because Starfleet found it easier to produce the Saber Class which does the same role, not exceptionally but adequately. The other reason was that Starfleet during the Dominion War makes great use of carriers and the Peregrine class fighter. Granted the shows always made them seem fragile and useless but considering the capabilities and mass producibilty of them. Well... I can see where and why Starfleet concentrated it's priorities

[@jayking1122]

The defient is a destroyer used as an esscort .

[@occultatumquaestio5226]

The Defiant is basically the Starfleet equivalent to a Bird of Prey, but maxing out and overdesigning every they can. Due to the Defiant's size, power, and maneuverability, however I can see quite a few roles it could be used for. For example: I could be used for low/sub-orbital, atmospheric, and of course station-based combat, being able to quickly weave around more stationary platforms; it would also make a good blockade runner; or a super-heavy bomber.

[@bug1701]

Beet me to it with that comparison.

[@venomgeekmedia9886]

yeah thats another overlooked aspect: sub orbital support something the B'rel is very good for.

[@shep9231]

Guys... the Defiant-class is an up-gunned frigate. She's severely overpowered and over gunned for a ship of her tonnage. The best example I can give you is the Pegasus class missile boat the US Navy had in service in the 1970s. She's got engines that are way too massive for her, that's why she nearly tore herself apart during battle drills... That's why she was shelved in the first place. When Sisko had her pulled from mothballs, it was to deal with the Dominion threat as they were already busy in building up for a future encounter with the Borg. Defiant herself was available and it was a case of Starfleet being desperate. A second deadly enemy in less than ten years... This was Starfleet darkest nightmare and now it was coming to pass... Sisko had no choice but to make the Defiant work... Desperate times breed desperate measures... and Defiant was made to work. Her trials would be unusual and so would her career. She was designed to fight, and fight she would... She stuck the Dominion on notice that Starfleet wasn't the pushover they appeared to be. Considering that three Jem'Hadar attack ships DID destroy USS Odyssey. One of the largest and most sophisticated Federations starships yet built. Defiant was designed for battle and nothing else. But she is a frigate that very often handles destroyer duties and can handle battleship sized targets without too many concerns or issues. However she is also a glass cannon, if she takes one too many hits, she goes down as we saw with the USS Valiant and later with the USS Defiant herself. Starfleet built the Defiant-class in numbers because the design was proven that it could work, however, this ship was a pure-bred warship and nothing else, she is a one-trick pony that can make enemy ships scream for mercy... But shes, not the ship you wanna send out into the field for long missions... she's got short legs and no crew comforts... She's a beast... To both her enemies... and to her crews...

[@AvroBellow]

Honestly, I never liked the Defiant-class. I was never able to take it seriously as a warship in a galaxy that had classes like the Negh'Var, D'Deridex and Sovereign. It looks more like a recon or espionage vessel.

[@I.Simmonds]

As for the Logistics, I would counter with this Star fleet invested alot in a very expensive very large generalist explorer called the Galaxy class. In Which within a Decade of it 100 year projected life the USS Enterprise, USS Odyssey and USS Yamato were lost 2 of them with all hands (1000 crew a pop) , and Many of it adaptable generalist designs were lost against a single enemy Unit at wolf 359. I would say Voyager's "message in a bottle" showed how a Defiant was suppose to be deployed in pairs supporting a Larger vessel such as an Akira, Nebula or even a Galaxy. The B'rel class has have an active life of over a century, And its effectiveness speaks for itself. It can do much solo but it is best when aiding larger Vor'cha battle cruisers. But neither are swarm ships as neither Star Fleet or the KDF can toss away resources, but they are not meant for solo work.

[@athyscollection]

At the end of the day, the Defiant couldn't over power an aging Excelsior class.

[@richard1701able]

I completely agree. The Defiant is basically a Gunboat. It's not surprising then that Sisko engaged in Gunboat Diplomacy with the Dominian. I was honestly suprised to see the Valiant and Sao Paulo as I would not have thought Starfleet would have made any more than the prototype. Like you said, it's too small, expensive, specialised, and there are better options.

[@courtneywhite2758]

It's actually cheap easy to crew fast and can be left a a high value location as a deterrent. It performed science missions just like larger vessels. Your just not going to be as comfortable or lose as many lives if the ship goes down.

[@richard1701able]

​@@courtneywhite2758 I agree in that it perfectly fits the role of a deterrent which is meant to protect a high value location, but with it's state of the art technology it might be inexpensive compared to a bigger ship but I wouldn't call it cheap. A Defiant Class Ship would require a specialised crew as well. Just look at all the technical problems the USS Defiant had before it launched. It required a genius level engineer like Miles O'Brien to stop the ship from destroying its self. 'It's over gunned and overpowered for a ship its size. During battle drills, it nearly tore itself apart when the engines were tested at full capacity.' Sisco and his team at Utopia Planitia couldn't get the USS Defiant to work as designed, and they deigned and built it. If you watch the episode 'Valiant' you see that a "normal" crew couldn't get the USS Valiant to work at 100% power. As for the ship's functions 'The Defiant's a warship. Nothing more, nothing less.' 'This ship would have no families, no science labs, no luxuries of any kind. It was designed for one purpose only, to fight and defeat the Borg'. Again, I agree with you. You are not going to be comfortable on a Defiant Class, but with 150 people on board you are not going to be lonely. If you are looking for "Personal space" you might consider serving aboard a Miranda Class. It's crew of 32 should be easy to avoid.

[@courtneywhite2758]

@@richard1701able Those peoblems with the design were worked out with the defiant so that is no long an issue. The warp core is now standard, hell intrepid class ships cores are more advanced. The only thing in the class that sets it self apart from the fleet are the pulse phasers. In Canon it has done other missions then fighting.

[@coreymicallef365]

Were Defiant class ships actually designed to swarm Borg Cubes though? They're small, short range, with big guns, heavy defences and small crews. When we see them they're attached to a star base and the crew are detachments of the star base's crew. They're reliant on being attached to larger base for a lot of things but they tend to be kept ready in a condition to be deployed on short notice pretty easily. To me this doesn't sound like an attack ship, this sounds like a home guard defence ship, something that's small enough and light enough on crew requirements that they can be mass produced and stationed in developed star systems as a mobile complement to the fixed defences to slow down Borg assaults while a larger fleet is gathered and in the meantime they can draw upon local resources to keep them running and their crews taken care of. In the Dominion War that's probably how they were mostly used, as system defence ships to guard the Federation's rear areas close to the Dominion and freeing up longer range cruisers with less logistical strain from defensive pickets to join in on offensive operations.

[@90lancaster]

A proper multi-role Starship would have to have endurance, auxiliary craft, a large crew, self-repair ability (i.e carry spare parts) and decent sized quarters. The Defiant has bunkbeds, a tiny crew, thick armour plate, almost no phaser stripes (just ones to cover the rear and underside firing arcs) and like the Constition refit it can feed warp power into it's weapons. So basically build a powerful short range high speed warp reactor and feeds that power not into auxiliary systems so much but into shields, engines and weapons. at the cost of cargo space, crew comfort & comfortable range. Where as something like a Saber Class does similar stuff it has more of those things so those are not as durable under fire. It also has Quantum Torpedoes. They are not unkillable though - they can get overwhelmed. But it turns out if you take out everything you don't need this is what you get the starship equivalent of a PT boat.

[@ManicPandaz]

Just like what they did with the Doctor, the Defiant would probably be recommissioned as a tow barge or asteroid mining ship. Being made out of explodium may bake a powerful ship, but not great for exploration.

[@philiptai233]

This leads to the obvious reason why they developed the promethazine class. I think that the purpose of the Prometheus class was to fix some of the overall strategic problems of Defiant class, and not just to create a class that would replace or be better than a 3 Defiant "wolf pack" in a straight fight. In fact, I think that the Prometheus provides the speed, range, and staying power of the Intrepid class with the fighting capabilities of a squadron of Defiants. Some of the problems identified on the Defiant class were: * Range and deployment time - it's small, overpowered ship that has been quoted to be inhospitable for crews, lacked resources for long deployments, lacked a full size medical bay. This made the Defiant class most suitable for station/planetary defense or missions that would have a specific deployment time. Long range patrols and border maintenance missions would be difficult for this class. * Energy cost per lightyear travel seemed high - again, overpowered ship with concessions on star fleet standard design could have been made at the expense of efficiency. Whereas an Intrepid class would take X units of Y materials to fly 1 lightyear, a Defiant class might need 1.5X of Y materials to fly the same lightyear. Multiply that by 3 Defiant classes in a wolf pack, your fuel usage would be way more ships. I'm making up all these numbers in my head, by the way. * Crew costs vs mission profile. The Defiant, while using a smaller crew than most of its contemporaries, was still designed to partake in only the most dangerous of missions that risked the lives of all hands on a regular basis. More importantly, each ship would need to have the high level officers needed to run every starship, namely a commander or captain ranked ship captain, a chief of engineering, a chief medical officer. These ships, given their purposes, should be dying at a higher rate in any given year given the mission profile, and displacement of the ship. It is, after all, still a destroyer class that may be going up against cruisers and larger ships. The Prometheus deals with all three of these problems and provides Starfleet with the option of a long range tactical escort that would excel at convoy escort missions, seek and destroy missions, and border patrol missions that they would normally send a squadron of Defiant classes for. Also, having a frigate sized ship with a lot of power for shields would be better in the initial feeling of phases of a pitched battle.

[@paulpinson4925]

You're right. There were two on screen in voyager, so I could see wings of these on stand by near potential hot spots.

[@jinsetayinsei4146]

Ah, this takes me back. STA I: The defiant was a mass production frigate that performed as well as any other frigate I never used, though it was fun to spam antimatter mines in nebula where you couldn't be shot. Then there was the (not) famous Worf maneuver. Heh heh. All kidding aside, I don't really know what the community thinks of the Defiant. in FleetOps, she was expensive and her build/repair time was looooooooong. There was discussion about a cap for that ship alone, and some debate as to how important this ship really was. For my thoughts on the ship, I think the cloak suits the Defiant, specifically, quite well. If it can hide an artificial quantum singularity on a Warbird, then the Defiant's core shouldn't be a problem. If you're reconnoitering Dominion space, you don't want a ship that can last in a fight. You want one that can get out of Dodge fast. Note the first thing the Dominion went for was the warp drive when they found her. And didn't she cripple a supped up Keldon? I think that would constitute a cruiser kill if she wasn't pressed for time. I do agree with all the constraints you've attributed to the Defiant class. She's a pricey short range assault ship, but I'd pair a couple of them with a Galaxy or Sovereign any day. You get your bang for your buck.

[@donhodgkinson6233]

Great video and with respect your bending the truth. The defiant is on par with galaxy class beats a pimped up excelsior every time.

[@bug1701]

Uhm... they specifically said that they were holding back in that fight. "targeting engines and weapons only. " still at the end of the fight, "we are hurt bad... Lakota is worse."

[@haroldchase1881]

This ship was star Fleets wort hog or P47 thunder bolt . It was good for war , or the Federation Bird of prey . She was good for what she was built for , as for this ship can take on she could fight an excelsior class etc or a Klingon battle cruiser etc. yes she is strong

[@bryanfederowicz3258]

I think the show actually explains all of this in that initial briefing that Sisko had for it-- that it was never actually put into production and never actually used, there was likely just only 3 or 4 built as part of that swarm on a Borg cube idea as a test of concept and never really any more. I think it really shows that it was a failed concept that Starfleet was trying but never actually decided to put to full production, hence why it still has an NX registry. So since Sisko was going to go on a suicidal mission to find the Dominion and the Romulans were willing to set aside a cloak that was likely outdated and Starfleet already knew how to build-- hence why O'brian knew how to fix it-- then Starfleet was willing to let him take the thing and see what happens. And then when Sisko manages to come back, then they are also willing to let him keep it-- certainly wouldn't hurt to have a warship like that on the border but the idea that Starfleet was building more seems unlikely from what the shows seems to say. And even more so, the fact that the just gave one of them to cadets also seems to suggest that they were ships that were too good to just outright scrap but also were not actually practical in the fleet and as such were not part of the war in any meaningful way other than with Sisko. At least that is what DS9 seems to say about it. Also some of the assumption was that Starfleet was willing to give Sisko a Miranda or an Excelsior or something they had sitting around to go on the mission to find the Dominion but he requested the Defiant and as such, ended up being his ship.

[@roguehunterx]

I think the biggest thing about the Defiant is that it was more a proof of concept. It showed what was possible for them to create and that there were roles that a ship like it was ideal for. I think originally, it was given to Sisko because Starfleet considered it expendable to an extent. They didn't know what the outcome of an attempt to find the Founders would be. The Defiant was a ship that had a lot of teething problems, but did have some pros. Losing it wouldn't be as costly as losing another Galaxy or other heavy cruiser type and it was probably better armed and more maneuverable than a Miranda it similar ship. It also didn't require them to pull a ship from a mission elsewhere. If it managed to bloody the Dominion's nose, intimidate them, or even make it back in one piece, great. If not, the biggest loss might be the ramifications for Bajor of the Emissary dieing. I do think that Sisko did manage to show that not only could the ship stand up to the Dominion and other opponents, the concept behind the Defiant was viable and there were roles such a ship could fill for Starfleet. You might at best have a handful of actual Defiant class ships, but work on it probably helped with the development of similar ships like the Saber which could be made in larger numbers for a more reasonable cost. It makes an excellent patrol and escort ship and could probably take over a number of the defense roles you might have something like a Miranda or Centaur performing, freeing those ships for other potential duties. I think what is best about the Defiant is what it proved once it was actually deployed. It showed Starfleet could make a very capable fighting ship. It tested a number of designs or concepts that probably made their way into other ship designs. It also proved quite capable in the various roles it was called upon when dealing with groups like the Maquis, defending convoys, and taking multiple ships of similar type like Dominion fighters or Birds of Prey. It also showed a shift away from having to rely mainly on larger ships and possibly developing and employing tactics they couldn't before. I think that is where the real importance of the ship lies. It was capable, but hardly invincible or superior to something like an Intrepid or Sovereign. But for what it was, it was a tough ship that showed the value of something like it to Starfleet.

[@Fackeldackel]

I agree for the most part, and i am glad that DS9 handled Sisko's Pimphand very consistently. She never got to destroy a heavy cruiser on her own, she never won a "me versus everyone" - moment and she was never used for deep space missions. She is an escort, a DPS - unit in gamer terms, designed to work in tandem with bigger ships or space stations. She can be rearmed and refueled by cruisers and stations, making her a patrol ship and interceptor. And in the mission profile she was designed for she was top notch. Starfleet suffered MASSIVE losses of personal during the Borg crisis and the dominion war. With the Defiant not requiring a crew of hundreds but only about 50 or less if i recall correctly, she became even better. So, she was 1) Most likely fast to build without the need of vast shipyards needed for ships of the line. 2) Easy to crew. 3) Very specialised but also very good at her job. 4) Proofen during numerous combat scenarios against all enemies Starfleet had. Of course Starfleet built more ships of her type, but they were most likely part of a local system's or sector's defense like the Defiant. I think what makes her so popular among fans is her fresh design, that it was time for Starfleet to show some teeth instead of getting beaten into the dirt over and over again, the deep relationships beloved characters like Worf and Sisko had with this ship, how the Defiant's backstory was integrated into Sisko's backstory, how the Defiant got the audience off the Station during episodes and of course the memes.

[@venomgeekmedia9886]

so with the issue of manpower you want to be careful. because while you want to streamline function to require less manpower you don't want to do it to the determent of capability think ww2 french 2 man tanks. they saved manpower but did so at the expense of capability. also i don't agree that she'd be fast to build as she used unique components requiring a parallel supply chain. and while she may be easy to crew. they would require additional training since its so unlike other starships. but yes she does have quite a personality though she's not one you bring home to meet the parents...

[@Fackeldackel]

@@venomgeekmedia9886 "U wot mate? Your mother calls me bitch and i go brrrrrrrrr" What is not to like about that attitude? ;-)

[@TimothyChapman]

Build a ship that's designed to be used in swarms, but don't build enough of them to be used for their intended purpose. What an excellent idea!

[@bug1701]

It was not meant to be mass produced! it was a proof of concept ship! I think... COULD be wrong.

[@CubanWriter]

The ship was only made into a workable ship during the run of DS9, and they started building more as soon as they could.

[@nunya3163]

Sounds like every military ever.

[@darthtripedacus1]

Love that tough little ship ❤️

[@invidofinp1828]

Little?

[@IronWarhorsesFun]

ITS SO SMALL, ITS YUGE!

[@starguardian7299]

Therapist : Sisko with photon torpedo eyes isn't real, it can't hurt you. Sisko with photon torpedo eyes : 0:30

[@gmradio2436]

If I believed fan hype the Defiant could challenge a sun to a fist fight and win.

[@theodoremccarthy4438]

It’s worth noting that in DS9 we see the Defiant go up against an upgraded Excelsior class and lose. Also, worth noting that the only time I ever remember seeing more than one defiant on screen in a TV series was in the Voyager episode “Message in a Bottle” in which two Defiant class were deployed as escorts to an Akira class on a mission to retake or destroy the Prometheus. This suggests that the Defiant classes which were produced were used early in the war to bolster border defenses along the Romulan neutral zone. Probably because they would be more cost effective as a deterrent when stationed at an outpost, than as a front line combat ship in a war zone where they are consuming lots of resources and risking destruction.

[@Darmok_]

It’s interesting that by Picard season 3, starfleet adopted swarm tactics as its standard across the board battle doctrine. Yet there aren’t any Defiants or successor designs active at Frontier Day.

[@jerms7967]

I agree with everything. It’s not practical for the organization. But as a viewer of the show, I love it anyway.

[@RoseBunneh]

stumbled upon this video three years late, but I would point out something said in it's first appearance. "Officially it's listed as an escort vessel", so in times of relative peace Defiant class ships would likely be assigned to a starbase as the "base's designated ship". You can handle the resourse requirements and repair via the station's supplies. It would opperate as a short to medium range scout sent out from the station, or as an escort in anti-piracy function guarding convoys departing from your station. In emergencies, you can pull them from duty at their station(s) to form wolfpacks, as needed.

[@patrickbarrett4071]

Having watched many of your videos I think you have already made the case for why the Defiant was needed. For me, too much emphasis is put on the threat of the Borg as being the main reason of the time for ships like the Defiant to be built. There were a number of reasons closer to home specifically three. The re-appearance of a near-peer threat in the Romulans. The politically unstable near-peer threat of the Klingons and the consistent threat of less than peer in the form of less advanced races such as the Cardassians. What is the role of the Defiant-class but to deal with these threats. It totally out-classes the bird of prey. Takes full advantage of a Warbirds maneuverability weakness against fast attack ships. Also being able to transverse through the Badlands and strike deep within the Cardassian space. I also see the Intrepid-class/Hunter Killer as being the worst nightmare for cloaked reconnaissance.

[@averylee4302]

2:43 correction, in the episode where Thomas Riker takes control of the Defiant, it wipes the floor with multiple Galor and Keldon cruisers, it can really punch above it's weight class.

[@venomgeekmedia9886]

Yeah I call bs on that... just like the defiant surviving a vorcha.

[@Enzo012]

The idea of it was really to get the main characters of DS9 off the station and take them somewhere else for story driven purposes but in something a bit more feasible than a runabout but small enough that they can dock it in the station. So it was ideal for what it was intended for in that sense. Star Fleet doesn't normally have any small warships that would fit the bill so it was a prototype ship made for fighting the Borg that never went into full production, you can buy that.

[@lawrencebrewer8769]

You are absolutely right. Ever since I saw the 1701-E fly past it in First Contact I thought „that‘s a tiny overhyped ship!“ Not at all how Dukat called it the „most powerful ship in the alpha quadrant.“ Never ever!

[@shadowvessel]

I agree. The Defiant is a Federation WARSHIP. They say that in its introduction. Stripped down to engines, shields, and guns. The med bays and replicators are a joke. The crew are mostly people without families. I'm not sure if overrated is my choice, though. I'd say underused. The Defiant had a lot of potential the show never used and that used to frustrate me when I watched it. I do think the mirror universe Defiant should be included in this. It's an exact copy built from the same schematics. 🤷 I also include the DS9 Technical Manuel specifications in my opinion of the ship. It may not be canon, but it's part of my head canon. That could be why it's part of my top 3 Sci-Fi ships (Tied with the White Star and the Shadow Vessel) 😊 Great presentation of a kind of controversial topic. I almost didn't watch. Lol That's why you're awesome🤘

[@trajan74]

We saw the mirror Defiant deal significant damage to the Regents flagship, a Negvar type battleship, by using close maneuvering. It also took on an Excelsior class heavy cruiser. The Valiant was able to destroy a Galor.

[@Ginji85]

The fact that it is easy to detect is the reason for it's cloak, it can get close to a target u cloak drop it's massive damage, recloak and dissappear while the enemy is left wondering wtf happened. Also the cloak helps with reconnaissance during the war time in that sector. That's why the cloak, i think that's a pretty gd fit 🤔

[@joeclerkin2653]

It was excellent at what it was designed for - fast attack with heavy firepower. It struggles outside of its role, but was still impressive going up against larger ships too.

[@sike2399]

I should be irate right now. I mean, how dare you? But that thumbnail was so spot-on it made me laugh and now I want to get it on a t-shirt. As a DS9 Loyalist and a member in good standing of Sisko's Cult of the Emissary there's simply no talking me out of my Defiant-class fanboying. But I think calling it overrated is fair. When I first saw how radically different it was from the more iconic starfleet design paradigm of saucers and raised nacelles my excitement got the better of me but even then it seemed like it would've been far more effective as part of a squadron than as a standalone vessel. A wolf pack of Defiant escorts on patrol around Federation assets would give just about anyone in the Alpha Quadrant pause for thought. Even without cloaking devices. Which rarely worked properly... shifty-effing-Romulans and their janky equipment.

[@chrismills2439]

What Sisko said was offcially she w as a Tactical Escort unofficially she was a war ship, dropped everything that w as not a necessary item. Yes the Defiant Class would have been a swarm ship but in the regard that it would be 2 to 3 of them tactically escorting each ship of an anti-borg ship. aka the Defiant class is nothing more than a super heavy Peregrine class fighter.

[@chrismills2439]

ah yeah, now if you could fix her problems one of them the class's range so it can go further....

[@brucewayne2558]

Wasn't the Defiant created to fight the Borg?

[@I.Simmonds]

I think lighting up sensors is the point of the defiant, If you have a170 or 120 meter star ship with a beam of 134 meters giving off the heat signature indicative to an Excelsior class your ship is giving off a bigger sensor signature that it actually is making most incoming shots meant for a target with a much larger profile. After all ships "see" with their sensors not "visually" the view screen is not what tactical "sees"

[@jamesnealii8370]

I believe it was designed not to work on its own but to work in tandem with other defiant class ships as wall as saber and Steam runner class ships, in sort it was designed to work as part of a squadron but don’t take my word for it watch lore reloaded’s video review of the defiant class starship he knows what he’s talking about As for the cloaking device it was on loan from the romulans to be used only in the gamma quadrant in exchange for intelligence information on the dominion but they violated that agreement on many accessions

[@CubanWriter]

I think the Defiant is useful for its niche role as a fighting ship for times when fighting ships are needed. Particularly when the enemy is not mostly comprised of large capital ships. It is a much less 'expensive' counter to a small cluster of Jem Hadar attack ships than the USS Odyssey was, for instance. In peacetime, it's probably not a worthwhile ship. It's overpowered for a simple patrol vessel, and it can't be effectively re-tasked to deal with non-fighting emergencies. So, I see this as a ship you field during periods of conflict, maintaining only a very limited number in action for training and familiarity purposes between those periods of conflict.

[@venomgeekmedia9886]

true but if your fighting a total war then the defiant is still very costly to manufacture for an attritional war.

[@MrChronified]

@@venomgeekmedia9886 How do you conclude that building a smaller ship is more resource-intensive than building large capital ships?

[@apotheases]

What if they retrofitted a Galaxy Class saucer section to dock 2 of these underneath it? Sort of like a long range launching pad for defiant classes?

[@venomgeekmedia9886]

there's definitely room although the captain would have to kiss goodbye to his yacht...

[@jenniferstewarts4851]

Ships power output is massive, they talk about this, to effectively use the cloak, they have to shut down most big power draining systems. now one of the biggest drains on it is the shields. and those drop anyway when the cloak goes up. Now she can be detected under cloak if she tries to run to many systems, (or by anti-proton scans) but at the same time, when she's running grey. She's fully cloaked. now, that said, in actual combat, her power signature is massive, her heat signature is massive, and this actually creates the opposite effect. In technical terms its called Yehudi. Essentially, its so "bright" that it partly blurs sensors scans on it, almost like jamming it. It appears as... a larger target then it actually is. So yep. its far easier to target... The problem is, its hard to target specific parts of the ship such as shield emitters or such because they are "blurred" By the power output, as well even shooting at the ship itself enemy sensors will fire if they think a shot will hit, but because of its "energy output" and it appearing to be a larger target then it is because of that... enemy sensors... will shoot around it... thinking the ship is there as well.

[@pepperVenge]

Good Points in this Video. Personally; I always imagined that 10 years after the Dominion War, Starfleet would have built thousands of Defiant's and had them grouped in fleets of at least a Dozen and position them at all the Borders, planets, and Starbases. Defiants would become the Federation's equivalent of the US Navy's Arleigh Burke class Destroyer; you can't upgrade them much during their lifetime, so just improve the design as you build new ones. By the 25th century, Starfleet would have new and Old Defiant class ships making their teeth show at all Federation Borders. Additionally, Starfleet would have likely built a few hundred Sovereign's by this time. Sovereigns would likely take the roll as the Flagship of the Defiant fleets.

[@mackenziebeeney3764]

I like thinking the cloning device was rated for the D’Deridex class, with its high but consistent power output. And the defiant ruins the cloak.

[@sagesheahan6732]

9:58 I spy with my little eye the defiant variant with holographic cloak: Hornet-class. 😉 Which, I mean, discuss? Would giving the Defiant a holographic cloak, (in other words, a cloaking device that instead of making the ship invisible creates a holographic image of any other ship you wish over your own, making you appear as... A Freighter? A Borg Cube? Space dust?), be strategically useful and pragmatic in ship design? Would it be more cost effective than the cloaking device? Does this make defying classes more useful, or less so? 🤔 Discuss. 😁

[@HeadlessChickenTO]

I don't think material cost with Starfleet was much of an issue, but In Pale Moonlight does raise 1 issue Starfleet did have during theDominion War...manpower. Starfleet could pump out ships all the live long day at a decent pace, mainly cruisers to boot. But having them fully crewed was an issue. In wartime, the Defiant is a game changer for Starfleet. It punches well beyond her weight, she compliments well with attack groups, and with her single objective build design, there should be little requirement for specialized training. And with such a minimal crew requirement, a Defiant can be put into service and fully operational faster. But like you said, the Defiant can only do 1 thing though it does it very well. Specialization always comes at a cost.

[@jenniferstewarts4851]

it does punch WELL above its weight class. It has taken on cruiser sized targets, and held its own against Galor class as well as an Excelsior class. Here's the key, if engaging a target that is not using torpedoes, such as Galors... it has a serious advantage in firepower and defense... as its abalitive armor handles shield bleed though and such far better. The best way of looking at it is, the defiant is a corvette, packing a light cruisers powerplant, guns, and such. To do this, they sacrificed everything else from endurance/range, the size of its medical bay, its labs, holodecks, anything that was deamed "non combat" was either removed, or scaled down. even the cabins on board the ship are almost klingon in nature. Even the crew quarters, the quarters on the NX-01 are HUGE compared to defiants quarters. Hence why Worf loves them. Open the door, walk in, on one side is 2 bunks that take up the entire wall, on the other is 2 chairs and a table. and then against the wall is 2 lockers. what? no bathrom? no sonic shower? Nope, not even a replicator. Gotta use the mess hall, and share. every last "convenience was stripped down. that allowed a smaller and smaller profile, smaller target, more effective coverage of armor, while keeping the same firepower and shields of a ship 4-5x its size.

[@gallendugall8913]

The Defiant is a warship as envisioned by people who don't understand war. Talking about the writers and not Star Fleet.

[@leeprice2849]

It's to bad we never saw a swarm of Defiant class ships working together. How many would be required to take on a something the size of the Galaxy class?

[@pauldareason]

how ...dare...you...... (mister worf fire at will)

[@sagesheahan6732]

I think the Defiant-class would better suited to taking out something like Star Destroyers (I can just imagine one decloaking and firing Quantum Torpedoes at the reactor bulge... Boooom), in quick attack and run tactics. However, it is NOT meant to slug it out in a prolonged battle, especially with anything the size of a cruiser or bigger. If the captain of a Defiant-class attacks a battleship such as a Star Destroyer or even a Vor'cha-class, and does not destroy it and the initial attack, they're probably gonna want to run away.. Which the ablative armor, maneuverability and speed helps with. Think U-boat wolf pack tactics. Thats why in the Voyager episode "Message in a Bottle" we see Defiants used the way they are. Alongside and supporting a larger Akira class, no less.

[@For_The_Horde]

Hold up! Bold claim! The USS Defiant is a galaxy class amount of firepower compacted into a bird of prey sized ship. The Defiant took out Galor and Keldon class ships on the regular and keep in mind these are Cardassian main line cruisers. This ship was so scary that when the Cardassian learned the Defiant was stolen by terrorists they were freaking out. They called it "The most heavily armed ship in the sector" this is cannon and indisputable. The Defiant took on a retro-fitted Excelsior class and fought it to a draw and it almost made it to the end of the war. When the Romulans stole a classified Federation vessel they sent 2 Defiant and an Akira to take on that classified vessel and 2 Romulan warbirds. The ship class was piloted by cadets and they were still effective. The defiant would take many shots while it's shields we're down due to transporting or some other thing and keep on trucking but in the same battle 1 shot a fully shielded bird of prey. This ship is 20lbs of pimp slap in a 1lbs bag.

[@blairbrown4812]

"This is the West, sir. When the legend becomes fact, print the legend." --Maxwell Scott,The Man who Shot Liberty Valance

[@ryanbaggot]

It was meant to fight in large fleet formations

[@MrZonehawk]

It's kinda like owning a high performance expensive motorcycle. Sure it's impractical, can't really use it, and it's hard to maintain, but yah still want one!

[@zacheryanderson7363]

"Captain, he hath insulted thine hand!" "Set course for this venom geek media... He will miss mine ring!" Lol

[@joshuademmers4947]

Id almost say that they treat it as a fighter and create a dedicated carrier that carries hundreds of them. Add a dedicated stores ship and a replicator you'd solve the mobility issue and the swarm issue.

[@HarperStl]

I remember the Defiant taking on a Vor’cha after being damaged. That’s a bit bigger than a frigate. They were trying to escape with the Detapa council alive but I think if they didn’t need to get them to safety it could have taken the Klingon battle cruiser.

[@venomgeekmedia9886]

unfortunately i can't show you on YT but i've done a size comparison between the defiant and Vorcha... the defiant is only the size of the vorcha's "head"

[@philosophicalgardner5609]

Thankfully, they didn't make it a juggernaut in the show. Especially with the cloak, Sisko used it as a chariot. A raider. Something that could avoid large ships and blast its way through bug ships. I would get some of these rather than sacrificing several hundred officers per Maranda. You definably need to mix types in fleet tactics without cloak, but its maneuverability, small size, and small crew are an absolute asset.

[@jamesmagill5433]

Think there was miss opportunities to have Defiant Class squadron(s) in action battling the Borg in 1st Contact & in DS9 during Dominion War.

[@aaronatwood9298]

In the future of star trek, especially at war, the defiant is gold. Smaller and less scientific means less computers, smaller warp field coils, less power needed for life support, small size and modular parts means + replication means quicker to install and build, and when you are short of man power a ship fully staffed by 50 vs 500 with similar fighting abilities at close to medium range, that is hugely beneficial. Warp core, one matter to one anti matter so no change on fuel, but its a very compressed multi channel core which may burn out other parts faster but takes no more fuel. It was the Quantum torpedo test bed, not even Akira got those. The pulse phasers are the strangest, but theres no evidence they were problematic. I don't see this costing more, how do we know the Sabre didn't share engine components? The cloak, was meant for something the size of a warbird, and was on loan because the defiant was tasked with spying on thr dominion.

[@matthewbardos4424]

It is implied at the end of sacrifice of angels that it, along with two Klingon B'rels, destroyed or disabled a Dominion battlecruiser just before the defiant breaks through and heads to DS9. That is impressive, even with the help.

[@venomgeekmedia9886]

like you say implied. i suspect one of the Vorcha's did the heavy lifting for that.

[@0utc4st1985]

To be fair the Defiant class is a threat a dire threat to even heavy cruisers like the Keldons. We did see it chew right through the Cardassians when Thomas Riker hijacked it without breaking a sweat, only when it was outnumbered 10 to 1 did he have to give up. Now given that it's small and easy to build/crew, you could have a small flotilla of these take down anything short of a Dominion Battleship (the big one). That makes it THE attack ship as ton for ton it's easily the most effective battle platform in the show.

3:12 The Defiant took both Alt Universe Worf's ship shown here and the Lakota to an inch of their lives...almost destroying them both if it continued firing at them! NOT OVERRATED!

Just imagine what 9 Defiant-class overpowered ships can do when it swarms an enemy starship the size of the USS Enterprise NCC-1701-E ...it will completely obliterate it in 3 minutes flat! Overrated? I THINK NOT!!!

[@nealsterling8151]

While i wholeheartly agree to everything said, i think the showrunners didn't go far enough with the defiant and what logistics it would have taken to keep it running. In universe, Starfleet should have build some kind of mini shipyard next to DS9, just for its mainentance. Also, OBrien should have got an additional 50 Starfleet engineers for the sole purpose to keep the Defiant running. (Remember: The defiant was a prototype so no spare parts lying around somewhere you could just pick up and use.)

[@QalOrt]

It's a gunboat, comes on in and softens up targets so the ships-of-the-line can attack un-opposed

[@Colin_]

In an episode of DS9 (Sacrifice of Angels) the Defiant had been in combat for approx 8 hours trying to punch through the lines to reach the station and obviously using up several of its torpedoes (both Photon and Quantum). They made it through and entered the WormHole to face the Dominion reinforcements. Worf makes the statement that they are down to 50(ish) Quantum Torpedoes. So the Defiant does have a good supply of torpedoes. Obviously it won't be as many as the Galaxy holds which I think is approx 250. So I would say that the Defiant could carry approx 70-90 of them.

[@dontdrunkimshoot8220]

Ive been a fan of your content, but i should have known you were one of those.... a fan thats able to see the defiant for what it is! A ship that would only rate as a corvette, thats got the firepower of maybe a light cruiser. That is impressive, but any other modern modern federation ships thats intrepid size or larger should trounce it pretty easily. Its got a BIG OVERPOWERED WARP CORE! So it probably has the same warp core as a saber class frigate, a ship with almost 4 times the volume. IT BEAT THE LAKOTA! by 2370, an excelsior class is way oversized for its combat capability compared to newer ships, and its age prevents any modernization refits that go more than half way, inferior bank phasers are all that it can ever mount. Its a light cruiser that moves like a 70 year old dreadnought, with enhanced, but antiquated weapons, thats what the defiant narrowly bested, each without resorting to quantum torpedoes. Somehow, the take away from this battle for most of the DUMB fan base is that the lakota is a top tier death dealer for being able to stand up to the top tier death dealing defiant, LOL. IT BEAT A VORCHA! fighting it outright was never even considered by the bridge crew because it was so comically outmatched, instead they did some trick were they magically flung a ship almost 20 times its volume with a tractor beam, wile its ablative armor tanked a few partaly deflected shots. I'm surprised no nerd has tried to calculate how physically impossible that is yet. The birds of prey were no match for the defiant though, they are likely only about 2/3 as powerful, 1/2 as durable, but for 1/10 the cost. UMMMM IT KILLED BIG CARDI SHIPS! a pre dominion alliance galor and galor derivative likely is about a match for an excelsior class so that checks out. it mostly did single pass attack runs with its high burst damage weapons and moved on if i recall correctly. With its extremely limited fireing arc for its main weapons, its battlefield endurance against large cruisers with no blind spots is probably below average, if its not taking a ship out in its first pass, its in trouble as it maneuvers for another run, taking unanswered hits the whole time. Mainly, the writers didn't job the ship to make a contrived story they had written work, it was allowed to shine. And thankfully it never really achieved any explainable feats, beyond whats believable.

[@venomgeekmedia9886]

in fairness it didn't defeat the vorcha but yeah, that attack cruiser should have eaten her alive. i don't recall when it directly fought a galor?

[@dontdrunkimshoot8220]

@@venomgeekmedia9886 when Thomas Riker stole it

[@omegacommand1]

it is used to do hit and run or hitting smaller ships that is dangers . it is a defender and can draw the targets attack with hit and run tickets.

[@jamesp8164]

In defense of the Defiant... There are some things to consider. The Defiant is a 1st generation technology. It was an attempt by an organization (Starfleet) to create a vessel of a type (warship / military vessel) they had never created before, or hadn't created in so long the institutional knowledge to do so was lost. This was a warship as envisioned by people who don't design warships. They were able to pack it with the very advanced technology available to the UFP, which we see in the use of quantum torpedos, and the apparent raw power for their size phaser cannons. However, it's reasonable to assume that mistakes were made in the design that you would expect the 2nd or 3rd generation iteration to correct. It's likely that the reason we don't see a lot of Defiants is that improved 2nd and 3rd generation designs likely displaced it over time. It's likely that the Saber and Akira class did exactly that and became available quickly enough that production switched to those designs, as they likely redressed some of the typical '1st generation tech' problems the Defiant suffered from. Secondly, the Defiant probably was not intended to operate solo. It had a far better firepower to weight ratio than Starfleet's larger ships, but expecting it to take a very large ship like a Romulan Warbird or Galaxy class one on one is kind of unreasonable, and not really the intended use case anyway. It should be pointed out that the Defiant did defeat a heavily modified and modernized Excelsior class ship, which was considerably larger. Likely because it's nimble nature allowed to stay out of the firing arc of the Lakota's best and heaviest weapons. A squadron of Defiants which, despite their cost for their size, are probably cheaper to produce than a single large capital ship of the era, could likely be expected to defeat that larger ship as a group. Firepower sufficient to threaten large ships in Star Trek is compact; you don't need a large ship to carry a large number of torpedos. That makes the glass cannon concept of the Defiant viable. It's a relatively inexpensive way to get a lot of firepower into battle fast, in such a way that you don't have all your eggs in one basket. The issue of the Defiant filling too specific of a niche....that's a feature, not a bug. It is a combat ship. Despite Starfleet's insistence they do not have a military function, they very obviously do. It makes perfect sense for Starfleet to maintain a fleet of ships purely for combat purposes. The curbstompings received from the Borg and the early phase of the Dominion War should've demonstrated to Starfleet beyond any doubt that such a thing was needed.

[@jeremycaufield8605]

When a ship has plot immunity, it’s hard to judge it accurately.

[@raw6668]

Personally, I think as a warship, it is a good ship as its small size and high maneuverability makes it difficult to hit, along with a high amount of firepower allows it to hit above its weight class with the risk of only losing 50 crew members instead of the average 150 to 500 when a ship is destroyed. Making it a good ship to mass-produce against most foes. However, it is a poor ship to fight what is design to fight, the borg. To fight a cube, the best tactic, outside of overwhelming firepower, seems to swarm the cube to avoid its weapons while being able to tear the ship apart. Meaning, a starship with a large number of guided torpedo launchers, preferably on the side of the ship, with phaser arcs that allow it to hit the ship regardless of how its moves, like the Akira, and maybe the Sovereign. The Defiant has mostly forward-facing weapons and depends on doing strafing runs, attack with forward weaponry. It is one of the worst ships to fight the borg with as just doing a strafing run requires to fly into weapon fire instead of around.

[@charlestaylor253]

I've always loved the Defiant class. However, I sure wouldn't want to be stranded in the Delta Quadrant aboard one! 🤪

[@johnnyshredder9237]

Ok, but since it’s small it can be produced faster. (They can build more defiant class ships in a shorter time)

[@nunya3163]

And with much smaller crews, so easier and quicker to train up and man. Does not even necessarily need a full up Starfleet captain, could be commanded by a less senior officer.