The Detailing Industry Dark Art of Selling Water for Tons of Money

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#forensicdetailing #detailing

[@ForensicDetailing]

my maths for the BH cost were miles off. brain was struggling to fire.

[@Tmp205]

What should they have been?

[@jont60]

1 to 9 would make 5l it costs £16.95 for 500ml so would be £3.39 per l not included shipping I like BH products but I'm looking at either the car Pro ech20 or Wolfgang Uber for this water down concept

[@jont60]

​@@Tmp2051 to 9 would make 5l it costs £16.95 for 500ml so would be £3.39 per ltr not included shipping I like BH products but I'm looking at either the car Pro ech20 or Wolfgang Uber for this water down concept much cheaper

[@jont60]

Where can I get the spray bottles

[@jont60]

I have a dehumidifier in the house for drying clothes cheaper than tumble dryer. So have Endless supply of distilled water

[@pigeonpoo1823]

Spot on. I have 25l drums with Spotless water (£10p/l last time i filled up). Then mix up my concentrates, of which BH QD is one. 1:20 for drying aid, 1:5 for occasional max gloss. Great stuff

[@BrianW1612]

Reckon when I eventually get through all my QDs I'll end up with just 2. BH diluted as a wipe down for when I don't want to add additional protection to the car & BSD diluted 1:4 when I want to add some boost to the hydrophobics. Saying that recently tried KC FSE & that is up there for the slickest QD I've used. Left my layer of Lustrous+ feeling incredibly slick.

[@jorholme2003]

I use carpro ech2o as a qd. It's about £16 a litre but dilutes down 1:19 and has ceramic properties, so it leaves a nice beading effect if you want a quick top-up 👍🏼

[@NaturallyRapid]

Ive just bought some, ive tried it as rinseless wash at 1:200 also.

[@pigeonpoo1823]

I've just bought that and Absolute. Ech2o didn't even need a drying aid!

[@deez023]

Does it streak? I've received an older design bottle and It streaks quiet a bit at 1:200

[@NaturallyRapid]

@@pigeonpoo1823 my other rinseless wash is absolute, that’s great!

[@NaturallyRapid]

@@deez023 using it at 1:200 as well and using it at a higher concentration with reload as well was streaky for me

[@subatfun]

I am a big fan of Steve Peat, the mountain biker, and when he decided to sell his cleaning products without water (but bundled as powder sachet inside a spray bottle) and found it was a genius idea.

[@jcoul1sc]

Must look them up

[@MrOby10]

Also a huge Steve peat fan. But guy Martin did this first with his bike cleaning powder

[@ssing7113]

Absolutely agree it’s a great idea. Yeah, I made a right back that sometimes this chemistry is extremely complex. There is inhalation hazards. There is caustic acids. There is alkaline bases and all sorts of in between that can get you in the extreme troubles with somebody trying to mix chemicals together in their bathroom with water already it becomes more of a liability and lawsuit than it is trying to help the environment or save people money but yes, I do agree with you. It’s great if it can be done, but sometimes these things are bordering on extreme complex chemistry and cannot be mixed easily. They have to have certain steps you have to dilute them to certain ratios before something will dissolve in the mixture, so sometimes a lot of this is a lot more complicated than some people believe it to be, but I do agree with you if we could have that dry powders and mix it ourselves we should be leaning toward that although how many people literally have zero part per million water around or will go by distilled water instead messing up the product by having unclean water already not following the steps, not diluting it down before adding parts 345 and six so sometimes yes, it gets into the idea that it’s a great idea, but in reality, some of this stuff is actually extreme chemistry and cannot be handled with the average person ofbelow intelligence IQ, which would end these companies up with lawsuit after lawsuit when people spaces are burned off because they didn’t follow the instructions but very good point to bring up. I do agree with you for the most part.

[@danstimelessclassics5899]

I remember Steve peat I meet him a few times biking over Bracknell in that late 90s early 00s

[@tonycoughlin911]

I agree with you. Koch Chemie FSE dilutes down well for me Jon... got that one from you too!

[@VS-hu6le]

Great video mate 👍🏻

[@peterowen4456]

My local boozer sells coloured water for £5 a pint🤣. Seriously though, detailing is a pretty niche market with loads of small firms alongside the bigger boys. Is part of the problem an inability to sell in large enough volumes to turn a profit at a lower price? Great video as always and I am seriously considering using products you can dilute down yourself.

[@thomassavage6025]

Wolfgang uber rinseless with or without sio2 makes a great detail spray if diluted right. Mckees 37 sio2 rinseless makes a great qd if diluted right.

[@BriFree100]

Interesting vid Jon! I thought this was about spotless water until I started watching! I’d love to see a vid on that. 👍

[@richardparsons9705]

Another good and interesting video Jon. It does beg the question as to how much these companies are charging for what is mostly water. I guess in terms of costs one would also have to work out how much water is being used in the mixers by the water rates. As well as those who are using ionized water - how much this costs to how much is used in the mixes?

[@magerofl]

Have you ever done a podcast? I would love to listen at some more of your take on things in the detailing industry or some more in depth in the diffrent kind of chemistry in these products 😁

[@ForensicDetailing]

dont a few with the pro detailers magazine but generally no mate.

[@GrandHuevotes]

We definitely need to see more concentrates, just as we do with Rinseless wash. If Rinseless wash companies could sell gallons and didn’t care about shipping I’m sure they would.

[@ssing7113]

Great video and longer rant for somebody who wants that I want thought about starting a chemical nutrient company as I used to grow pot plants for an extremely long time and I even had lab grade equipment to measure out parts per million so I knew quite a bit about all the chemicals Use and the industry some of the challenges we have to talk about is what level are you? Are you a pro a consumer a hobby is extreme passion saving money is of use convenience doesn’t care wants to work and that’s some of the problem we talk about with which you are correct that a lot of this could be more concentrated yet with that comes the fact that some people will go through it too quickly because they didn’t dilute it or their sprain more than needs to be and then complain that the product didn’t last long enough when they didn’t dilute it down first or use it sparingly so there’s too many categories to go into and these companies usually find a happy medium, where people are happy to pay for it it last long enough and they come back and buy it again, but I do agree with you there does, fill a niche that some products could be coming a lot more concentrated or dry powders that you mix yourself, but that gets into the complexity of chemistry and chemical, mixing and acids and bases and all sorts of inhalation hazards and what have you that most of these products are designed off of delay person just wanting a product that works well enough and is willing to give them that much money they can find that they will sell that and that’s usually how the industry ends up unfortunately Where there’s some of us that are extreme enthusiast and passionate about it yet we can’t really sway the industry otherwise it would hurt everybody else that just as mediocre and middle of the line about cleaning their cars so anyways long rant as I’m driving, but I do know quite a bit about the chemical industry and in someways there is some drawbacks that they cannot avoid and have to ship these with that much water and some of them. Yes could be concentrated more, but as I said, get into the sack that people will probably be spraying too much and going through it too quickly and then writing bad reviews how the bottle doesn’t last when they were spraying three sprays instead of one spray on the entire hood so anyways great topic love the idea it is a extremely complicated in nature when you start thinking about it but great awareness to give people and yes industrydoes need to clean itself up a little bit as we have more and more pollution being created and shipping cost and pollution from transportation and and movement cost that’s only we can do better and possibly making more concentrated products so we are not damaging the environment in our pursuit of cleaning cars thanks

[@modevans3569]

What do you think of the ez products some of their range is super concentrated

[@Decoy450]

I don’t really have a use for QD, am I missing something? Rinseless wash is all I need to clean door jams and under the bonnet… and finish off with Gtech C2..Bilt Hamber for everything thing else on the exterior and glass , Gtech tri clean and matte dash on the interior.

[@ericwright1075]

This was very interesting and a lot of food for thought. 🇨🇦👍👍

[@andyblake1849]

Can I assume you rate Bilt Humber qd then, I was about to buy Tac Shinee based on a recent episode you did ? Jeez it’s a minefield out there , thank god your there doing this ace stuff👏👏

[@ForensicDetailing]

I do yer. wasnt keen on it initially because I used it neat or 1:1. but its really good at 1:9 as drying aid. it does not have the punch or the water behaviour or the silky feel of a ceramic detailer etc.. but its just a tool that gives me lots of value.

[@kayali8842]

What you recommend that’s cheap and has a good trigger? Thanks

[@goatee01]

I just buy rinseless wash concentrate and dilute it to QD or whatever concentration I need. Same for APC

[@schuurfonds]

Great video Jon! I wonder if you have any recommendations for dilutable wheel cleaners. They seem to be quite rare, but all the ready to use stuff is very expensive per wash. I'm currently using P&S brake buster diluted 1:4 in an IK foamer for regular maintenance washes which seems to work pretty well, but I still use quite a lot of product per wash. Also do you know of any iron removers that are dilutable and still effective? I'm also curious to know how effective it really is because I've been dealing with wheels where it just kept on turning purple application after application which left me wonder if it does actually dislodge the iron or it's more of a gimmick in some cases. Keep up the good work!

[@ForensicDetailing]

surfex HD 1:10 works great. then tiny squiert of FR afterwards if you wanna lift out some embedded stuff.

[@chriskoeplin6085]

Agree, SurfexHD 10:1 for prewash on body and especially wheels is great. Every other wash I use a fine misting of BH Autowheel from IK trigger sprayer which is the best I’ve found for putting down the min product (and Autowheel is just unbelievably effective on wheels - I just don’t think you need it “every” wash which is how i save it versus diluting which I don’t think works for the iron removers). Great video, Jon!

[@oldguylearnsguitar8266]

same happens in the aquarium industry for fertilisers! I buy the various chemicals in powder form and mix my own.

[@ForensicDetailing]

yes same for virtually everything water based really... that weed killer 5 litres for like 30-50 quid. you can buy the concentrate glyphosate and mix it down and those 5 litres cost you list a quid.

[@TheGreatChrisB]

I wish more companies sold concentrates. I try to only really buy concentrated stuff, I very rarely ever buy ready to use sprays.

[@motiOn732]

How does that qd hold up with coatings as a drying aid?

[@79blustone]

I use a Vyair DI water filter and mix up my rinseless wash with it. I didn't know Bilt Hamber QD could be used as a rinseless wash... does it have polymer based and have a encapsulation method to deal with dirt particles though? How effective is it against Mckees N914 or Absolute? Something that has been on my mind lately are household products and that whole cross-usage compatibility. For instance, Cif Perfect Finish Spray Stainless Steel Cleaner be used as a water spot remover? Which is only around £2 where as a dedicated water spot remover is £14.40 for Carpro spotless. Although I wouldn't want to test it on my cars though....🤔

[@pigeonpoo1823]

Me as well. Surfex 2% or Absolute 256:1 for household duties, Surfex 10% for sausage and burger fat, citrus for bathroom, KC PS 1:10 for muddy fell runners, TW hybrid ceramic for cupboards, GT Decon for wheelie bins, everything for my car gets used for my bikes. Or the other way round, Asda glass cleaner + 2% Surfex for like a quid

[@jamesstowers6014]

This might seem a crazy question but can you water down turtle wax seal and shine and use it as a rinse aid or quick detailer?

[@ForensicDetailing]

well generally most water based products can be watered down and still function, a bit like watering down water based paint and using it as a primer layer. answer should be yes. try it. might be some reasons why its not good idea but not sure I can think of any.

[@sanches990]

Great video. I well and truly believe that these detailing companies target audience is and are the enthusiasts. As enthusiasts we don’t know the real from the bad and don’t know all the science behind the products. I say this as an enthusiast and every single time I buy just a hand full of products I don’t get much change out of £100. I stick to what I like and what works best for me and I guess the others who don’t know will learn the hard way by over spending and over buying. Thanks to videos like this one and even this channel a lot can be learnt and money saved.

[@ForensicDetailing]

yer good point. I also guess that we get enjoyment from exploring the scene as well. At least I do, but the reviewer side of me and all the work we done on the channel has made me really like price conscious. and then I see a 500ml bottle of speed wax for nearly 20 quid and its like holy cow.

[@NaturallyRapid]

I did move away from BH QD only because both the bottles id bought went off after a while. I reckon its because they perhaps got to cold in the garage over the previous 2 winters, both in near and diluted down with di water. All my other QD style products didnt seem to get effected.

[@EazyDuz18]

bot

[@NaturallyRapid]

@@EazyDuz18 what

[@GregoryVeizades]

The only other QD concentrate I can think of is from Optimum. But I'm also not sure if they make it anymore.

[@seanblee]

I guess part of what you're paying is R&D cost, distribution, marketing and so on, but it's still a lot for water! You converted me to BH products with Traceless and Touch-Less, both superb at what they do for a reasonable price. I also used Autobrite Direct QD, which is concentrated and was decent value for 5 litres when I picked it up a few years ago!

[@ForensicDetailing]

But why are you not paying for RandD with bilt hamber? Bilt hamber spend more time in the lab that 95% of the detailing brands on the face of the planet combined but their produces are concentrates and can cost pennies per litre. It's not R&D it's margins for profit mainly.

[@robsteventon3318]

I’m after some advice on BH products. I’m going on a date tonight so I want to make the best impression possible. Would you recommend Touch-less as a genital pre-wash? And after should I use Touch on for a crystalline shine? Also, would you recommend Auto-Foam underneath to neutralise any unseen and potentially damaging salty grime? All advice would be greatly appreciated….

[@lgcoytv]

After the genital prewash using touch less - apply a nice layer of hydra wax for a slick finish

[@robsteventon3318]

@@lgcoytv Thanks… what about Atom-Sac?

[@lgcoytv]

Excellent call​@@robsteventon3318 . Spray at the base and behind the sac at a strength of 2% to prevent any nasty corrosion

[@ForensicDetailing]

lol :) :) :)

[@calvincosta5150]

Did I read that right? 🤣

[@LSD04]

I think those that offer a gallon or 5L at a good price are giving you the option and it can end up under half price for 500ml

[@jerzyjablonski1432]

I think there is also a quantity volume used. If you use a bottle or two of QD yearly (or even less) then getting something that gives you 15 liters of solution that is 15-30 years of QD :) It would go bad before you use half of it. I have one car, I rarely use QD outsied of summer so a 500ml bottle lasts me a year. I rather buy premixed one then concentrate. No, multipurpose concentrates are different matter for me personally. I used for a year or two Wolfgang Uber Rinseless (pink one) that was a concentrate that you could use as QD, waterless or rinesless shampoo (laws forbid washing cars with open water here), clay lubricant - depending on dilution. Genius product and if you mixed it as QD it was 20 liters of QD for LESS then single 453ml bottle of premixed QD from same company.

[@mullema]

You forgot Carpro Ech2o

[@marcelscarshow]

Gyeom wet coat dilute down?

[@sheepstardetail]

Good video! I think you did gloss over (ha, get it?) R&D costs and size of the operation. I don’t doubt for a second that a lot of brands are just re-blends or straight rebranded goods, but if you put a lot of R&D into a product, and/or a company can’t operate in a scale that can bring costs down, it will lead to comparatively high prices. No one really knows how much of that end cost is going into what, but it does need to be considered. I am like you though, for my high use chemicals, especially in the cleaning portion of a detail, I won’t use anything that isn’t concentrated besides fall out or tar removers.

[@ForensicDetailing]

dont take much RandD resource to blend lab samples together in water. just a measuring device and a stirrer :)

[@sheepstardetail]

@@ForensicDetailing For sure, but there is still trial and error, time to test and confirm the results, and the whole hand made vs automated production. For sure there is profit margins for a lot of main brands, but you have other parts of these companies that consume a lot of resources. Gyeon's bottles are one off, but they also order a large supply. You have graphics, marketing, etc etc. It's not free.

[@ForensicDetailing]

for sure. Ive said this for 10 years. the bottle and the label and triggers cost 10 times more than the chemical. But if car chem can sell me a shampoo that costs me 1.5p a wash, and they blend it, they formulate it, they have commercial silos and compounding machinery etc.. why are other companies selling me a shampoo which costs 100x the price per wash?

[@mandopando68]

I use carpet ech2o concentrate which I use 1:10 fantastic detailed & waterless wash even better @ less than £16 per litre….😎😎

[@alanwomack1254]

Do all of the si02 detail sprays form a ring of gunk on the inside? Seen it in the armour detail supply bottle.

[@ForensicDetailing]

not all no. that can mean theres some hardener in there I think. Or some material drying on the side of the bottle with contact to the plastic and the air. its not really a problem as such.

[@LSD04]

It’s the yellow dye that they used, it’s now been removed and is a slightly different colour. Adams Slick and Slide is terrible for this.

[@alanwomack1254]

@@LSD04 I’ve had it happen on shine supply punch it and carbon collective speciale too. Thanks!

[@alanwomack1254]

@@ForensicDetailing thank you Mr John!

[@Stainlessautospa]

So why not just go for a rinseless wash as your qd? Bilt hamber is 113 pound/ 5l, compared to armour’s new rinseless which is $65/gal. BH is 20:1 for rinseless vs 256:1, 9:1 for qd vs 128:1 or even 64:1. I totally agree that the value is in concentrates, but I don’t think BH QD is really a great value over all….. maybe it does a bit better on gloss, but newer rinseless formulas are really coming to the plate with some very nice effect. I guess from my stand point, if we’re talking value, let’s really go all in on it, not a half step. As far as pure cleaners like apc or glass cleaners I’m 100% in agreement, give me the highest concentration possible and I will dilute accordingly. Love some kcx green star and protector wax, as well as diy all clean for that reason.

[@ForensicDetailing]

Rinseless wash are pure surfactant typically and they should not leave anything behind. BH is more a QD. BH QD leaves material behind which adds gloss, but also helps disperse water, helps add hydrophobic effect and also contains charged polymer to reduce marring. So you should compare armours rinseless to ONR or mckees and that stuff more than BH QD. BH QD can also be used as interior dressing.

[@RoySlater9]

Any advice on a 981 cayman 2.7 John? Considering buying one

[@ForensicDetailing]

stretch to the S if you can mate. and track it till it blows! Im not much of a 981 expert though. but I really like the look of them. great choice mate.

[@RoySlater9]

@@ForensicDetailing 🤝

[@kilner79]

same as paint and beer :)

[@dimmacommunication]

What is the name of those tanks ? not the company but the style of the jerrycan

[@ForensicDetailing]

dunno mate but they are burkle sold by labs unlimited.

[@MajesticKa1]

Can you please do an episode where you put 10 brands against each other for " value " in different categories e.g interior spray , car wash , tyre shine , wheel/rim cleaner , spray sealant

[@shl4998]

Koch Chemie protector wax is great value for the money. 1L can mix out to 200L product. That’s 0,25 pounds pr liter.

[@ForensicDetailing]

i thought it was 30ml of PW to make a litre to you can make 33.333 litres per bottle?

[@shl4998]

@@ForensicDetailingmy pw bottle says 1:200… 10ml for 2L of water. So u have 200L produkt from 1L PW

[@ForensicDetailing]

mine says 30 ml to a litre. 1:200 is for commercial systems I think.

[@shl4998]

⁠@@ForensicDetailingwierd… Mine say’s 1:200 and works flawless🙈

[@stuarth902]

Not a chemist but if you compare the cost of a branded domestic APC it's c£2.00/ltr. Compare this to a detailing market APC at c£15.00/ltr. Accepting that there may be a chemical variation between the two, it's difficult to believe that this would justify the price differential. So you have to assume that the vast majority of the differential is market driven.

[@jont60]

Absolutely which is why use Screwfix no nonsense degreaser I also use bubble bath in a foamer bottle to wash hands and in shower same stuff as shower gel except bubble bath is used In larger amounts than shower gel or hand soap for that matter so the consumer would grumble if price matched

[@thattoolguy9432]

I was using Gyeon Wetcoat essence 250ml.. cant seem to get it now

[@ForensicDetailing]

i think we just spoke about this in the stjarnagloss glat video. not many buy these LSP in concentration. I think gyeon just sold tons of wet coat and not much essense (guessing though who knows)

[@PixelVogue]

some on ebay but 100ml

[@thattoolguy9432]

@@ForensicDetailing i love the stuff, i work in construction the the car gets dusty as hell, but since using wet coat it stays cleaner and easier to wash .. id like to coat in gyeon sychro , just bought a pxe80.. but dreading doing it as never done it before , if you saw all the angles etc on my bodywork you'd understand, tried tons of waxes in the past, but something in gyeon that seems to make white cars really pop

[@trifin5772]

I know John hates the environment but it is much less wasteful to transport concentrates. Some of these products are sent halfway round the world and they are mostly water. Crazy.

[@BionicRusty]

And then they take it a step further and sell you adblue. 😂🤣 They’re not taking the p1$$. They’re selling it to you. 😂🤣

[@Nite-owl]

I've always thought we were all just paying for a company's intellectual property/recipe, more than anything. 4th comment, but first non-bot spam comment.

[@jcoul1sc]

That's important

[@CYMRU619]

Surely most of them are just copying/slightly altering what's already out there and not coming up with all new formulas...

[@simonelliott2945]

@@CYMRU619 yes but there is still a lot that has to happen to get the product to market that is often overlooked. My wife works in the chemical industry and with some of these manufacturers. Many of them large and small are really struggling at the moment. One a very well known company with a significant presence in Halfords is often late paying suppliers because they don’t have the sales they need to the point that they have had debt collectors sent.

[@MaxCherry4170]

Go ask your local how much that pint of coke from the gun is lol bout 2p mate

[@Tmp205]

Still only £6/L.

[@Tmp205]

The box for popcorn, costs more than the popcorn itself…. Profiteering is everywhere.

[@Pickfordr100]

Know a man that works at coke and a full 24 case of coke only costs about 30p to make

[@Jnaszty559]

Well now They’re are tik tokers and KZbinrs that are coming about with their “own” detailing products that know nothing about detailing. That just shows where the market is at now.

[@ForensicDetailing]

thats the world we live in. theres a lot of one man band detailing brands running fully outsourced operations.