The Doctor Meets... the Doctor? | Fugitive of the Judoon | Doctor Who

[@desfigon8552]

Plot twist: every character in the show is the doctor but she doesn't remember it

[@stephenmurphy2212]

Plot twist: the Master was actually bullshitting her to mess with her head.

[@thesyndicate834]

@@stephenmurphy2212 True

[@AgherDeadpan]

That is a terrible plot twist, but no more or less than the Timeless Child

[@mjzudba801]

Plot twist: I'd love to be the doctor, and that's not a plot twist, sign the petition for me to become the time lord

[@Tubeguy46]

@@stephenmurphy2212 plot twist, the master is the timeless child

[@TheYankeePiper]

Jo Martin got The Doctor spot on. I absolutely loved her version and agree with many others here it's a bloody shame we most likely won't be seeing here again. I would love to see her come across Ncuti Gatwa's 15th Doctor. She needs to be back again some time.

[@ItsSpecialHands]

Honestly I don't even dislike Jodie's portrayal, but it's clear Martin would have been a much, much more fitting Doctor. The little time we have with her shows just how suited she is to the role.

[@Shinycelebi]

@ItsSpecialHands It was all about baby steps, changing the Doctor to a Female was one drastic step, but a Black Female Doctor? They would have received so much more backlash from the peanut crowd that don't watch the show anyways.

[@finnsempire5671]

@@ItsSpecialHands I loved Jodie’s doctor 😊❤

[@pejvil18]

She is the biregeneration of tennants doctor , save it

[@cameronmiller2068]

@@Shinycelebisame as Martha back in the day and she is my fave companion

[@ian2081]

I love that they keep up the tradition of The Doctor being annoyed by themselves

[@ZebitasMartinex]

I have to admit, she felt more like The Doctor in 3 minutes than Jodie in 2 seasons. Is no her fault, but the scripts barely give her something to do

[@jvictor001]

I felt the same.And I totally support Jodie,but Jo Martin felt more like a proper Doctor than Jodie has

[@scotttovey]

That's the difference between playing the character; and as Jodi is quoted as saying: "reading the lines".

[@filthycasual8187]

@@scotttovey I'm pretty sure Jo Martin is also a fan and liked Peter Capaldi's Doctor; at least, I could have sworn I read that somewhere...

[@evanson69]

Jodie Whittaker has barely done anything to prove the haters wrong, unfortunately. I really wanted her to be good but she simply isn't. Blaming the writing is weird because the same writers wrote for Jo Martin too and she aced it.

[@SenatiaA]

I felt the same way.

[@DamascusVT]

After this episode I wondered why 13 hadn't just asked her "Well what regeneration are you? What number?" Then after the finale, I imagined Fugitives response probably would have been something like "Well I don't know, I haven't kept track like the WHOLE time." And nothing would have been answered lol "What do you mean you haven't kept track?" "Well what number are you then?" "Thirteen! Have you had that many?" "It's been quite a few, but I don't know if it's been quite that many..." "Have you been Scottish yet?" "What the hell does THAT mean?!"

[@themightyginger7524]

I don’t think that she is pre-Hartnell. This is because when Jodie says “But you don’t recognise the Sonic Screwdriver” Jo replies with “Smart enough not to need one”. That would mean that she’s had one on the past but she doesn’t use it anymore. Also she has the police box so she has to be after Hartnell.

[@SuperCrazyfin]

All it proves is she knows sonic screwdrivers exist

[@thepandorica1660]

Could the between 2 and 3 theory fit into this?

[@tardisglitch547]

Yeah true but sonic screwdrivers have existed as a normal tool in time lord mechanics kits and the doctor found one when they left with susan.

[@Slgjgnz]

In the Timeless Child story, the Doctor gets mind wiped between his Timelord lives. So Hartnell is the first face of the current "life", but he actually don't remember previous ones. It's surely also not have been the first time the Doctor stole a Tardis and run away from Gallifrey, they always do. The only indication could be the police box disguise, but even that is thin, Hartnell might have stole the same one and broke it again the same way. It's not like the Doctor ever read the manual...

[@ftumschk]

@@SuperCrazyfin Doctor Ruth only refers to it as "that cute little gizmo", which appears to mean that she doesn't know its name, or what it actually is. Indeed, Jodie says to her little later "But you don't recognise a sonic screwdriver", which Doctor Ruth doesn't deny.

[@AndrewMakesPuns]

If it’s pre-Hartnell, why is the Tardis a police box?

[@cameronbungay2841]

That's a very good point

[@anirudh_vadrevu]

It's a theory (fanmade) that the TARDIS loves that form so she took that form with the doctor. Every time. But eleven destroyed the chameleon circuit.

[@inugumu]

Yeah the show informed us that Clara was the one who direct the First Doctor to the Tardis. The only thing that might make sense is that like the end of the season suggested that there were multiple iterations of the Doctor, who all had there own regeneration cycles, and were wiped of all their memories. That they all choose the same Tardis might suggest that the Time Lords, before their destruction, were studying the Doctor for...some reason.

[@DartLuke]

Because scriptwriters are terrible

[@SinisterPixel]

My theory is that Ruth's doctor is actually the result of a convergence in space and time. We know every decision generates a parallel universe, but we also know you can't alter a fixed point in time. Maybe a decision that Ruth's Doctor made altered a fixed point in time to the point it ripped her universe to shreds, and the remains of the universe just collapsed in on the most similar universe to the point where Ruth didn't even realise she'd skipped universes.

[@ricedanan]

You know you've done something wrong when this new Doctor you've suddenly introduced feels more like the character than the one that's been in 2 series.

[@caiasi8189]

I... actually cannot argue in any way against that... in any way. Jodie's "Doctor" sucks so hard. Unbelievably so.

[@alanguages]

Whittaker and Chibnall, should be removed from anything Dr. Who related.

[@Sam-gs8iw]

@@alanguages I honestly think Whittaker does really well with the material, its just that the writing is awful.

[@Shinycelebi]

@@alanguages They both quit. This is their final season and then we are finally getting a new writer and doctor.

[@alanguages]

@@Shinycelebi I don't trust whoever they get next. (Actor and/or writer) It will likely be just as crappy or crappier to outdo the stupidity of the Whittaker and Chibnall era.

[@notyouraveragelemon6128]

I may have my problems with the timeless child but, I think that Jo Martins doctor is probably one of my favourite iterations of the character & it’s a shame we’ll probably never see her again after 13 regenerates

[@Mask0fFate]

If the Timeless Child thing is ever retconned out, I hope they find a way to keep the Fugitive Doctor (Jo Martin’s Doctor) around. Her existence is one of the few good things to come from the Timeless Child retcon.

[@philfitnesspt6139]

@@Mask0fFate except she is nothing like the doctor when have you known the doctor to.use guns or deliberately cause harm to someone (ripping the horn off) killing the other timelord when gun backfires which she knew wd happen. She is nothing like the doctor in any way. Jodie is far more like the doctor a mix of 11 & 10

[@sans4124]

@@philfitnesspt6139 dude she is the past version of the doctor What the doctor actually used to be. Before her memories were erased Have you not watched the timeless child episode

[@wildste]

@@philfitnesspt6139 Well you have clearly never watched Classic Who, several incarnations of the Doctor used guns. Its only 10 that had a problem with them

[@anonymouswhite352]

@@wildstethe doctor never runs around with a gun and never has sure he's used one here and there but never actually just walked around with a gun on his belt he typically non violent

[@andyh4518]

They instantly start criticizing each other's fashion sense. Yup, definitely the Doctor.

[@lumberluc]

"OH! Oh, you never like it"

[@darkcosmicmoon]

Nope definitely not the doctor

[@DaddaRidley]

You can tell 13 didn't like Ruth's Tardis LOL

[@user-gn5gb9pn1n]

@@brewingstation9764 Haha sorry they are whether u like it or not😂😂

[@user-gn5gb9pn1n]

@@brewingstation9764 Damn someone’s offended 🤣🤣

[@edwardjames6023]

She should have been the first female doctor! She had the attitude, the mannerisms to pull it off!!

[@exiledpsychic855]

Wouldn’t have mattered with the writing

[@Killgore-ip2yq]

Actually if Michelle Gomez didn't portrayed the master I would love to see Gomez as the first female doctor.

[@wanyekest6969]

@@Killgore-ip2yq Oh, she was lovely as The Master/Missy.

[@desoliver9712]

@@exiledpsychic855 I agree the writing was terrible, but the fact is she has far more onscreen presence than Jody who frankly would have made a better companion.

[@deuce5546]

In one episode Jo Martin upstaged Jodie Whittaker and we didn't even know she was the Doctor for a good portion of it. I don't have anything against Jodie but Jo is clearly superior, I sure hope she turns out to be next incarnation and she's the 14th doctor.

[@rodneymarsden3003]

Okay with me if she is number 14 but NEVER before Hartnell!

[@rodneymarsden3003]

@@paulaaronromanauthor5599 That destroys canon. 50 plus years of adventures in time and space gone. Not good. Not right.

[@Lemuel928]

Like the time 10th Doctor spoke to 11th Doctor.

[@idreamofsquidz814]

Yeah, I’d like that. Definitely would fix the timeless child arc.

[@philfitnesspt6139]

Not really she is nothing like the doctor..doctor never uses guns or causes harm intentionally

[@Obi-Wan_Kenobi]

Doctor Who is a show with flimsy continuity at best, but even is has some lines you should never cross. Making a Doctor (or even worse, Doctors) who existed before the Hartnell is not just nonsensical, it also seems disrespectful. Don't cheapen the legacy of the show you have the privilege of working on today.

[@edgymoji8260]

Well said master kenobi

[@tobiasgabrielfranco7560]

Whe don't know if she is pre Hartnell

[@johnssmith7807]

@@tobiasgabrielfranco7560 I hope so, But I am really hoping that 13 just stumbled into a different universe since series 11.

[@doctorfate6414]

The Doctor is officially died.

[@tobiasgabrielfranco7560]

@@doctorfate6414 no, officially is alive.

[@mrwhatcanido4942]

when Joe Martain's doctor felt more like the doctor than the actual main doctor. I really wanna see her again in those yellow specs. I totally wouldn't mind her being the next doctor. Also this episode, my god is it mind blowing compared to what came before in series 11.

[@CaptApril123]

Exactly what I thought.. Jo Martin's first five minutes as the Doctor she knocked it out of the park. Not just her lines but mannerism, attitude, everything just screams 'The Doctor'.

[@vicgraves150]

Yes! Yes! Yes! I hope Jo Martin is our next regeneration!

[@winteralf7300]

canonically, she cant be the next doctor. You wanna ruin canon even more than chibnall did?

[@mrwhatcanido4942]

@@winteralf7300 well yeah. I'd rather have a doctor that feels more like the doctor than going against the canon. cuz at this point, there doesn't feel like there is any canon. I highly doubt it will actually happen. I just want to see Jo Martin's doctor again. And I love her yellow specs. I just hope Chibnall can pull it together without crashing the ship. although series 12 was better than series 11 apart from the timeless children.... hold on a minute the episode is called the timeless children, not child... interesting.

[@snapdragon9300]

More like amnesiac and brain damaged.

[@jessetorres8738]

I am still not a big fan of the "Timeless Child" twist since I feel it retcons too much of the series' continuity and the Doctor as a character. If they had just gone the route of The Doctor lived an entire regeneration cycle that they chose to forget about (like how Capaldi forgot Clara) I think that would have worked fine, but I feel the route they went goes against too much of the established Time Lord lore/history of Gallifrey. Plus, before this twist The Doctor was just an average Time Lord who was interested in Earth/loved exploring the universe while the rest of the Time Lords looked down on other forms of life and chose to isolate themselves, but if Time Lord society as we know it only exists because of The Timeless Child then The Doctor would have been more respected and been aware of their significance. So, I blame this idea solely on Chibnall since I feel this twist wouldn't have worked regardless of who was The Doctor, but I do like Whitaker as The Doctor.

[@theginganaut9254]

Well said. Ironically they could have changed the timeless child to the Master. Which would have explained why he was so angry. Knowing at little part of him is what helps the doctor in his adventures. Could have been a great way to renew their rivalry! 😍

[@Axetwin]

At the risk of giving Chris Chibnell WAY too much credit, I'm inclined to wait to see how the rest of the story unfolds. I feel like we're not being told the entire story. All The Master knows is "The Doctor" is the timeless child, and this episode introduced us to an unknown Timelord known as The Doctor. Very few things can be taken at face value, and a very real possibility that Ruth is the Timeless Child and not Jodi.

[@hiltondriver5335]

No only William Hartnell stoke a tardis and there was a mind swipe at the end of partrick Troughton when the time forced him to regenerate into Jon pertwee maybe there was a mind swipe where he lost an regeneration we never got to see probably that’s when the gimme lords originally had him a mind swipe and forced to live on earth has this Ruth doctor and now they will catch up with him again and regenerate into the Jon pertwee Doctor

[@c0mpu73rguy]

Pretty much that, yes. I don't like the idea of other regenerations existing before Hartnell.

[@scotttovey]

"if Time Lord society as we know it only exists because of The Timeless Child then The Doctor would have been more respected and been aware of their significance." More respected in the same way that the left in America give more respect to the founding Fathers of America? It is also possible that despite their long standing claim; that the truth of who the doctor is has been wiped from the memories of the majority of Gallifreyans and only an elite few know the truth of the timeless child. The real question is; if the Doctor is the timeless child, how could the Time Lord's prevent him or her from having infinite regenerations? Wouldn't whatever they did to limit the regenerations; break after a regeneration?

[@doctorboom8282]

I hope this isn't a similar scenario to "The Next Doctor", where the 10th doctor meets another doctor but isn't actually the doctor.

[@Spiritouspath]

if they do it right the black lady is the doctor from another dimension/reality what somehow 1 of them got thrown in 1 of the 2 doctor's reality without realizing it

[@PirateReviewer]

Nope. They just wanted more diverse doctor, that's all there is to it.

[@pojoseph29]

I actually liked that Christmas special, it was done in such a unique way that you actually hoped it was two Doctors meeting. Then they Moffatt us. 😭

[@kernelparadigm]

nope ,this is bbc saying we are out of ideas, we are gonna press sself destruct buttons .

[@bluephoenix4357]

That's mental 😂🙏

[@ChippyGaming]

I would absolutely love to see more of her Doctor

[@sprite3351]

I didn’t know you watched doctor who chippy!

[@finspatheticchannel1224]

YO CHIPPY

[@DoctorHorse]

Hello Dr Who enthusiast

[@stephenmurphy2212]

BIG FINISH?

[@harmonic5789]

Honestly yeah

[@niallm1699]

My theory is this. When 12 regenerated the TARDIS got shunted in to a parallel universe. That’s why it blew up and disappeared and why no one knew who the Daleks were. The fugitive dr is an alternative universe dr as is the master.

[@yeet12937]

@Lolly Lops smh shame :( Ngl if I became the writer or whatever after him I'd say they crashed into another dimension

[@kasimbhatti3115]

@James Card You read his comment wrong

[@kasimbhatti3115]

@James Card he was saying the fugitive doctor is from a parallel universe, "as is the master" - which means Sacha Dhawans master is also from a parallel universe. Thats what they're saying at least. I don't believe it's true

[@zacmumblethunder7466]

@James Card He's not talking actual fuck but theoretic fuck, which allows for the possibility of a new show runner retconning the retcon and either reretconning the show or deretconning back to its uncon form rather than its current version which is a straight forward con.

[@iamhansjoerg]

And after that he returns to the original universe, where chinball never happened

[@jamesattenbourgh]

A future incarnation could have worked. The fact that it’s pre-hartnell makes like zero sense. So many continuity issues.

[@soulecho230]

During the 4th Doctor serial "The Brain of Morbius" it was strongly implied that The Doctor had incarnations prior to Hartnell.

[@astrosleep9625]

@@soulecho230 or they were morbius incarnations?

[@jamesattenbourgh]

@@soulecho230You realise that was a bad idea ignored or contradicted by the rest of the show and doesn’t serve as justification for altering canon explicitly now, forty years after the fact. Again, there’s a myriad of continuity issues it causes, especially in the newer series.

[@urbanartcj5143]

Or it could be an incarnation between the 2nd and 3rd Doctor

[@zacmumblethunder7466]

@@urbanartcj5143 the third Doctor was wearing the second Doctor's clothes when he arrived on Earth.

[@andrewhall6479]

Props to this sequence. This was the first time in a while that Doctor Who pulled the rug out from underneath me. Not since Melody Pond have I felt so blindsided in the best possible way.

[@halfbreed1426]

Parallel Universe? Just play a safe retcon and have it revealed that our Doctor has been trapped in the sub-par Chib-Verse.

[@DogsRNice]

That’s what they did with jj Abrams Star Trek lol

[@Da_Baron]

THAT'S WHAT I'VE BEEN THINKING!

[@barneschris5148]

It literally is the only way out for this show.I very much doubt the powers that be will ever do it though. They are too entrenched in their own sanctimony and virtuous lives.

[@jeanmichellelaurent]

Or maybe have her be like David Morrisey in the next doctor

[@Wrangler-fp4ei]

I would hope this how they will salvage the situation as in making a Chib-verse, since that blowhard said its not parallel universe. He just a hack looking to build up a legacy no one wants since the stories are so bad it's damaging franchise.

[@palblue]

I love that part where they both speak at the same time, its like they both started questioning their other self at the same time. “Same brain!”

[@SpecialMonkeyFilms]

My theory is that she's inbetween 2 and 3 and that instead of forcing the Doctor to regenerate and exile them to Gallifrey, they re-employed the Doctor into the Division and sent them off to do missions for the Timelords but was forced to regenerate as a punishment, meaning the 2nd Doctor became the Jo Martin Doctor but because of the events of what happened in this episode (running away, becoming human, killing Gat [basically going AWOL]) they captured the Doctor, forced them to regenerate into the 3rd Doctor, erased the memory of Jo Martin's doctor, took away his knowledge of time travel and exiling him to Earth since that's where the Doctor ran away from the Timelords to and became human to disguise herself, meaning that the Doctor has no memory of Jo's Doctor and the Doctor goes on thinking that they went from the 2nd Doctor to the 3rd and was exiled to Earth without knowledge of time travel as the original punishment

[@OverWims]

as long as the timelords gave him an extra regeneration then this can make sense

[@rhyscarter3939]

That's my theory.

[@TheOriginalEwan]

If she was between 2 and 3, the doctor would’ve remembered that incarnation. Just like the war doctor, the one we don’t talk about, but he was still an official incarnation of the doctor. I’m sorry, but I just cannot accept there being any doctors before 1, unless there already was a pre-1st doctor that Chibnall didn’t just pop out of nowhere that I’ve never heard of before, which is unlikely.

[@lindagoad2163]

Lets not sully the originals with this mess please. Pertwee comes out in troughtons clothes. I dont mind having her as a doctor, seems better than the actual current doctor tbh, but the original 8 are the first 8 and everything else happens after.

[@Phantom19913]

The doctor is the timeless child the source of regeneration for the timelords they let the doctor run away then when they reach the limit of regenerations they wipe the doctors memory and let it start all over again.

[@timelord2502]

Fugitive of the judoon is probably one of my favourite episodes of doctor who my jaw was on the floor for most of the episode and the shock of Ruth being a previous incarnation of the doctor and then Jack coming back

[@joshmartin4914]

I wish they had made Jo Martin the Rani instead of the Doctor, she's long over due for a return!

[@Harveyc_Harveyc_]

True i honestly thought that the PRIMEMINISTER from Revolution of the daleks i generally thought she was going to be the Rani 😁

[@nachochips14]

That would be funny, if she had broken John Smith's chameleon circuit instead of the Rani's

[@samuelanson6192]

Aside from the timeless child plotline, I genuinely think Jo Martin is one of the best incarnations of the doctor we've had in a long while, she feels like this amazing combination of Hartne;l, Eccleston and Capaldi and I'm desperate to see more of her

[@philfitnesspt6139]

except she is nothing like the doctor when have you known the doctor to.use guns or deliberately cause harm to someone (ripping the horn off) killing the other timelord when gun backfires which she knew wd happen. She is nothing like the doctor in any way. Jodie is far more like the doctor a mix of 11 & 10 this doctor is more like the other timelords well the military one's anyways but nothing like the doctor.

[@Jack-Oates]

Say what you want about the Fugitive Doctor, but Jo Martin is incredible in the role!

[@JoshiVlogsOfficial]

is she? she can’t act

[@davidjr3769]

I love this episode , but meh she started off rough but finished decent

[@MichioMadness]

I want an entire series with just her. It'd be amazing. Heck, I'd even take a mini-series or spin-off

[@Muffinman842]

She’s better then Jodie 😭

[@JoshiVlogsOfficial]

@Nathan Thomson True

[@calburst]

Martin really outperforms Jodie in this scene. I’m more convinced by this short performance than Whittaker’s entire run idk if that’s just me

[@wolfwing1]

I like jodie and her run, but yeah definetly wouldn't mind a season of her.

[@Deciheximal]

I like Whittaker because her nose is proper Doctor size, but no, her acting isn't the best. The writing is worse.

[@DCSMedia]

I think Jo Martin was awesome in the role. She had great screen presence

[@61okj]

It would’ve been better if Chris wrote something that made sense

[@93Chowo]

I hope we see her again and find out just how exactly she fits into the timeline of the Doctor. Like how we first got introduced to the War Doctor (John Hurt) and then got the answer in the 50th anniversary special.

[@gingercat5996]

I agree, my favourite part of the chibnall era so far

[@thepandorica1660]

@@61okj perhaps this doesn't make sense because we haven't had the whole story yet. Remember River? She was introduced back in Silence in the Library, yet we had to wait until A Good Man Goes to War (almost two entire series after) to find out who she is and a little bit later confirmation on who she killed. Let alone, the cracks took up all of 11's tenure, so I'm up for the TC stuff being that for 13's run.

[@nicholasmills6489]

It was aweful. No screen presence.

[@nataliecameron]

Jo saying "I'm the doctor, I'm a traveller in time and space, and you're gonna love this" had perfect doctor energy

[@Neithie]

I love her. Was sold the moment she said hello I'm the doctor

[@TheChill001]

tbh, remove chris chibnall, let Jo martin be the new doctor under a proper writer and I wouldn't mind. The actress herself was convincing imho...it's just the writing which boggles the mind and baffles all sense of continuity

[@franklutton7149]

the Fugitive Doctor....... i want.... i want her.... She owns and deserves to be the Doctor !!!!

[@fionatsang9353]

That synchronized dialogue was brilliant, reminds me of Ten in the 'Midnight' episode Also I can imagine 13 thinking 'ugh first I got patronized by my wife explaining the TARDIS to me while she was stealing it from me behind my back (The Husbands of River Song), now I'm being patronized by me telling me who me is!!!' XD

[@DigiRangerScott]

Darcy Lewis: THEY RECAST THE DOCTOR?

[@misterlyle.]

You have missed much. Brace yourself.

[@SomeMortyDude]

@@misterlyle. it's a wandavision reference.

[@misterlyle.]

@@SomeMortyDude Thanks for your reply. I can't keep up with DC and Marvel, there is too much.

[@gohanmoreno7]

@@misterlyle. But Doctor Who is even bigger LOL

[@misterlyle.]

@@gohanmoreno7 It may still be good advice, to brace ourselves for what comes.

[@Akakunchannel]

"Chibnall: Hey, look what I have prepared for future seasons!" Well, I hope is worth it. By now it just a confusing plot twist, like when I first met River Song.

[@Dracattack]

The next showrunner will never mention it again lol

[@ivandphantom9028]

@@Dracattack Hey so Doctor you're not the doctor ok the neither is ruth you see the doctor is actually Human now and goes by the name rowan akistan just need to make him remember then he's a tiem lord, Please any explanation would be fine

[@zacmumblethunder7466]

@@ivandphantom9028 The next Doctor will be Ainsley Harriot.

[@bilbobaginsk4626]

What if she's from an alternative universe? Or maybe what If OUR doctor wandered OUT of our Universe and is only coming to realize it now..

[@PirateReviewer]

Nope. They just wanted more diverse doctor, that's all there is to it.

[@Wyrm7774]

@@PirateReviewer then they would have just waited until 13 regenerated to make her the Dr

[@Wrangler-fp4ei]

Chibby, poopoo on her being alternated dimension in a interview. I suspect he was trying depress fandom more that his writing is law / canon. Nothing else matter but what he writing now. Hope hell someone replaces him, but i don't think BBC will.

[@Mike_Ka-Chowski]

I love it when the Doctor explains things to themselves

[@excelsawd1006]

Chibnall: lemme pull a pro gamer move, its called retconning your favourite show to prove im a good director, now look at my awesome plot i made up on the toilet in 5 minutes!

[@stevenbartel5008]

What? People dont like retcons? What a surprise

[@carlacristina5613]

@@stevenbartel5008 fat manchilds don't like.

[@stevenbartel5008]

@@carlacristina5613 ah so fat manchilds are the only people who want to have a story that doesnt change anything that has already happened, and "normal people" like to get confused and have no idea what is still canon and what not, got it

[@lordtachanka5512]

@@carlacristina5613 nah bro, the show is shit now

[@SStupendous]

@@carlacristina5613 Back off of Max, I'll call the squad on you.

[@stalwart263]

There is no way to look at this and not think that Chibnall has totally screwed the canon. The points about the screwdriver and Police Box and interior make this Doctor impossible to place in the timeline even if we accept the Timeless Child Arc.

[@SStupendous]

She can't fit anywhere. HAS to be after Hartnell, but she's not between 2 and 3 as some morons here are saying, given clearly Pertwee entered our screens wearing the same outfit the Second Doctor was wearing at the end of the War Games.

[@cinder9529]

Ruth, if she is from pre-Hartnell, ruined Doctor Who for me. But it is nothing compared to the disaster that is The Timeless Child.

[@rodneymarsden3003]

Agreed.

[@OneColdMonkey]

Ugh this whole plot has just about ruined Doctor Who for me. I really wish they hadn't messed with the Doctor's past and give them a bunch of secret lives before the Doctors we knew about. I loved the Doctor being an old man who just said "F it!" one day and changed the entire universe, with nothing particularly special about him among his people like being some creature from wherever. *sigh*

[@justabit6526]

Yeah unfortunately Chibnall’s attempts to improve on the show have just ruined it but also done absolutely nothing to change the current doctors character.

[@MichaelO2000]

Philip Hinchcliffe already gave us Pre Hartnell Doctors

[@PirateReviewer]

They just wanted more diverse doctor, that's all there is to it.

[@thesenate5770]

@@PirateReviewer I don't hate joe's doctor. In fact I rather like her. But the timeless childs infinite regenerates make the doctor just another "chosen one" which i hate. I like were he is average (for his species) but he DECIDES to make a difference and be special, he (or she) was not BORN special.

[@lavishisles5497]

@@thesenate5770 In what way does The Doctor originating from TTC have any impact on the Doctor’s decision to leave Gallifrey? Yes maybe the Time Lords treated the Doctor differently but the Doctor had no idea that they were non-Gallifreyan at the time of making that decision, therefore it writes off the whole “chosen one” idea. As TTC there was no predetermined destiny for the Doctor, even TTC was just a lost/reject from her own species, not necessarily above average in the species.

[@Lobajoba]

I always felt more confused than anything else by this scene. When they added the War Doctor for example, it made sense within the world because the character went to this dark shameful place in war that they didn't want to talk about. This allowed for a redemption arc, here adding another Doctor just seems more like a provocative gimmick without any clear purpose.

[@mayalewis2956]

"Here's what you could of had" XD

[@orbital151]

I hope she turns out to be the fourteenth doctor and is a FUTURE doctor instead of a past doctor

[@talithahiggs1912]

Yes yes please

[@fadikhoory5350]

The doctor can lie, so she's probably embarrassed about her overeating, hyperactive, annoying, childish incarnation prior to her.

[@hiltondriver5335]

Adam A-K yes at the time after Patrick troughton Doctor and before Jon pertwee remember he fell out of the tardis around that time he was the Ruth Doctor

[@hiltondriver5335]

Adam A-K he had mind swipe for the time lords swiped The 2nd Doctor Patrick Troughton and before Jon pertwee fell out of the tardis that time he was the Ruth Doctor

[@hiltondriver5335]

Unfortunately the doctors home world did not have the time war yet

[@Ultima_Prime]

Anyone else open to the possibility of alternate timelines crossing paths?

[@InnerEagle]

Possible, highly possible in my view

[@greenfrappuccino3065]

I would not mind a season with Jo Martin's incarnation as the leading role.

[@lightxz27]

The worst part of rhe Fugitive Doctor isn't how she messes up the lore, it's how her actress is so damn good it makes it much more obvious that Jodie just doesn't work as the Doctor.

[@KyunaCookies]

Honestly, this was incredible, if the finale didn't mess with it

[@smiley3047]

@Bowlestrek Not the real Bowlestrek

[@chuckba5276]

@Bowlestrek So much hatred and anger... you'd make a good Dalek! Doctor Who has always been political. If that bothers you, watch another show

[@mahfuzurchowdhury2765]

@@chuckba5276, he's a fake Bowlestrek lol. He's mocking an infamous KZbinr who always hates on the Whittaker era.

[@chuckba5276]

@Bowlestrek My dear chap, have you watched Classic Who? Or anything from series 1-10? Doctor Who has always been political. End of.

[@KyunaCookies]

@@chuckba5276 he's apparently making a joke, a bad one but yeah

[@hiltondriver5335]

Probably Patrick Troughton at the time the time lords force changed his appearance before Jon pertwee he fell out of the tardis he was probably the Ruth Doctor

[@caleb7551]

That would make the most sense, although it would still feel like an insult

[@lindagoad2163]

3 is wearing 2s clothes so no.

[@shilohpark9705]

i believe the fugitive should be before Hartnell. because she had just came to earth, and the doctor's memories were wiped when the 3rd incarnation had just been introduced. so it's likely that this is pre-Hartnell

[@lindagoad2163]

@@shilohpark9705 let's not sully Hartnells legacy with any further suggestion he is not the OG. Find some other excuse to fit in this horrendous plot line if you must. But leave Bill Hartnell out of it.

[@nepeta3286]

@@shilohpark9705 if it was pre-hartnell the tardis wouldn't be the same, first of all, since hartnell canonically is the doctor who stole the tardis, and secondly, the tardis wouldn't be stuck as a police box, since we saw the tardis glitch into a police box in the first and second part of the pilot episode of doctor who, back in 1963, an unearthly child yknow, it cannot be post troughton either because 2nd invented the sonic screwdriver, fugitive didn't recognize or have fade back memories from seeing the sonic screwdriver, unlike the master, or even 10th, also 3rd wore 2nd's clothes so yeah that's quite a mess

[@OptimysticPessimyst]

This is quite literally THE ONLY scene of the Chibnall era that I absolutely adored. It’s the best this era has ever been and they threw away all the potential in the Timeless Children. It needs to be retconned that the Jo Doctor is from the future and has had her memories tampered with. Make the Timeless Children non-canon! It breaks everything

[@OptimysticPessimyst]

@@obiwankenobi687 it breaks everything and those who defend it are deluding themselves. The show is dead now

[@OptimysticPessimyst]

@@obiwankenobi687 the show will not make it to series 15 I guarantee you. The merchandising is dead in the water and Big Finish are refusing to do 13 audio dramas they’re producing them through a third party. Timelord Victorious is bombing due to its confusion story and release scheme but it is getting good reviews so sadly it’s an experiment that will not be remembered. Despite my enjoyment of what I have read and listened too. The show has gone from the number 3 show on the BBC to not even in the top 20 in 3 years in terms of viewership. Revolution was getting shilled left, right and centre by critics who’ve never seen the show or are on the payroll of companies with BBC connections and their affiliates. The rest just going with the trend without actually critiquing the show, and are scared to speak against the BBC and their “progressive” politics. Also it being the highest rated show on NY’s is not something to brag about. The NY’s schedule is barely watched by general audiences and it’s usually filled with programmes that weren’t deemed good enough for the Christmas releases (which DW was removed from. They had to reshoot parts of Revolution to take out references to Christmas due to losing their spot) Had this doctor been male the show would’ve been canned with such a loss of ratings. The last 2 seasons are the least watched and worst reviewed in the show’s history. Orphan 55 was the first episode in the show’s history to get a 0% on Rotten Tomatoes until they changed the grading algorithm and it was bumped to 12%. HBO are on the verge of pulling out of the deal due to HBOmax not meeting expectations and that deal is basically funding the next 3 series single handedly due to talks that the licensing fees are being scrapped and the Beeb having to eventually turn into an overpriced subscription service. A huge reason series 13 is only 8 episodes long (which will most likely be 7 and a holiday special which will have nothing to do with the date it releases) is because of the deal being in doubt and the BBC actually showing lack of faith in the show and cutting its budget. It’s not a case of a 13 episode budget being spread across 8. It’s a case of an 8 episode budget being tightly woven across the series. And it will show. The vast majority of the fanbase that put this show where it is has almost completely checked out and the ones staying around are either doing it to say they saw the end (much like myself) or blindly following it because they either don’t care enough or just want to say they are with the trend. The show is dead. And it’s down to Chris Chibnall and his team of producers. The facts are there to be found.

[@antoniothomas2663]

She better be an alternative doctor

[@nicholasmills6489]

They may rewrite this doctor. They know they’ve done severe damage to the brand. I hope they backtrack and recognise this was a vindictive mistake.

[@mellowyello1478]

@@nicholasmills6489 they'll double down on it for a decade before they do that, though.

[@shadowhenge7118]

I'd like to see a bunch of different doctors. They need to get better writers, though...

[@DoctorWhoHugh]

I think she is a future doctor, or in between 2 and 3 as 2nd doctor did jobs for the Time Lord and he seemed surprised when he regenerated (as if he wasn’t expecting it, which makes no sense considering it had been likely years since he was told that his face would be changed), my theory is that they forced her to regenerate, wiped her memory and then granted an extra regeneration.

[@Mxyzptlksac]

Jo was fantastic. I love her few seconds of air time

[@heatsinker_5517]

William Hartnell's portrayal of THE FIRST DOCTOR is the only FIRST DOCTOR of consequence and that's it. Anything else is fan-fiction multiverse and should be chucked in BBC's version of ...."Whaaaat iiiiiiif...?"

[@Enderman121_]

Here’s how you fix series 12 make the timeless child the master and make Ruth a parallel universe version of the doctor

[@JJohnston4Life]

The timeless child needs retconned so bad

[@morfy2581]

couldnt agree more.

[@MidnightVCoco]

for as much as people hate the timeless child, this makes sense. Because there are now 2 other versions of the doctor that exist. Edit: the wiki shows more versions of the doctor other than 2 that I knew about. there is about 10 other versions of the doctor

[@misterlyle.]

Why ten? There would be an unknown number possibly out there. I wonder how many River has encountered, but doesn't have a photo?

[@russelllahna2268]

I know that there are a lot of mixed opinions on this twist, but I'm in love with it simply for the implication that the Doctor ran off from Gallifrey (flipping the High Council the bird in the rearview mirror) not just once, but /multiple times/. As shown in Heaven Sent, mind wipes and time loops do not actually sway the Doctor from their goals, so that's extremely on brand. Everything else is just a bonus, I can't wait for more

[@chancewrightva]

I swear she better get the opportunity to be the next Doctor. I don't care what Chibnall says, I will never accept The Timeless Children as Canon. Ruth could be from an Alternative Universe, or the Next Doctor with Memory Loss, and I'd be happy.

[@user-lb9xw4xf2q]

Moffat: Hahaha! River Song will be the worst and most convoluted thing ever to happen in canon! Chibnall: Hold my plagiarism pen.

[@Hedoneo0]

River was loveable and smart but this thing they call 13 is the worst doctor ever and the sad part is the other one is better and she isn't even the main doctor. She should've have been

[@Logan_Elkins]

Okay now come on… this is literally the best doctor introduction ever

[@rjmcallister1888]

Well, we finally found the Tardis K-9 buried back in 1979.

[@arvarvanwar]

This scene legitimately blew my mind

[@astrosleep9625]

I blew my mind with a glock after

[@arvarvanwar]

@@astrosleep9625 strong reaction

[@astrosleep9625]

@@arvarvanwar 😂😂😂I love the show too much

[@ciarantimothy8081]

Mine too

[@oscarhampson9181]

Very elitist of you.

[@bsabruzzo]

That time when the Doctor met somebody who was better written as the Doctor.

[@hgwells1899]

Lol, that "Really?!" moment will go down as summing up an entire Doctors era

[@pritanisftw5784]

this is the moment when 50+ years of canon ended #RIPDoctorWho

[@dillonmartin7411]

I don’t see how it destroys the cannon. Ruth is a doctor from before the very first doctor. Or well who we all thought was the first.

[@tombath2374]

@@dillonmartin7411 but William hartnell is the first that’s what is upsetting people if Ruth is before him then she will be the 1st doctor

[@dillonmartin7411]

@@tombath2374 well technically the first doctor was a child that came into this universe somehow but we don’t know yet how that happened or why.

[@Tishbite731]

@@dillonmartin7411 No, he wasn't. He was a normal Gallifreyan who became a Renegade Time Lord. This obliterates the canon and is absolutely retarded

[@taikowolf]

I really hope that Jo Martin gets to play this Doctor more, either in future series or in Big Finish. I’d love to see her - she put in a fantastic performance here.

[@thedusty194]

Oh GOD PLEASE NO

[@finb]

No she didn't she was bland af

[@iamhansjoerg]

Noope

[@so1opiniao]

We need more of the Fugitive Doctor!! Jo was amazing ❤❤❤

[@SEGASister]

Honestly, this twist and the one in Timeless Child make sense. The Timelords didn’t have the ability to give the Doctor a new cycle (which honestly felt too much like a Deus ex Machina to me); they just used that as a cover to hide that the Doctor has had an infinite amount of lives the entire time. Also apparently one of Tom Baker’s episodes (The Brains of Morbus, I think) revealed that he had previous lives that weren’t Hartnell, Troughton, and Pertwee.

[@MushroomHaterProductions]

That's a very interesting theory. You may also remember when the Eleventh Doctor said, in The Sarah Jane Adventures, that he can regenerate 507 times... I think the Timeless Child arc proves that *wasn't* lying.

[@Squicx]

Bruh series 11 and 12 aren’t canon

[@Anonymous-zd1ow]

But the time lords _do_ have that ability, they gave the Master a new set of regenerations when they resurrected him to fight in the Last Great Time War. And the Tom Baker episode was retconned into those faces being the faces of Morbius.

[@Anonymous-zd1ow]

@@MushroomHaterProductions No, because the Doctor's memories were wiped of being the Timeless Child in the first place. 11 was just straight up lying.

[@benforth3113]

@@Anonymous-zd1ow They only got rid of the brain of morbius doctors (until now) because the writers couldn't agree on how to incorporate it into the show

[@michaelpolk2344]

If she came before the 1st Doctor that we know, how is her tardis the police box? It got stuck like that when the 1st doctor traveled. So if she’s before that, it makes zero sense for it to be a police box.

[@Almafeta]

"Stop doing that!" That's what every two doctors meetup feels like...

[@alexanderthegreyt]

Chris Chibnall single-handedly undid 57 years worth of the ‘mystery’ of who the Doctor is. If there was to be an origin story, this isn’t it. Moffat hates it, Russell T Davies hates it. So much love was put into this show and now one man decided he would try and make it his own. It doesn’t belong to him, it belongs to everyone. I will continue to watch the show but I long for the time this whole storyline is explained away.

[@mr.sentient7344]

Have Moffat and RTD gone on record saying it?

[@tombrearley-smith5777]

You may wanna check your sources mate. Last time I checked, both Russell T Davies and Steven Moffat were perfectly fine with it. And Moffat also said that Doctor Who's cannon has never been the most consistent.

[@sabrinatirabassi3529]

I wouldn't believe that Russel and Steven "hated" anything even if they came to my house to tell me that personally.

[@alexanderthegreyt]

@@mr.sentient7344 Russell T Davies said during an interview something like “these days anyone can be the Doctor”. I’m assuming Moffat hates it, he must 🤣

[@alexanderthegreyt]

@@sabrinatirabassi3529 maybe not hated. Although in that interview Russell had venom in his voice.

[@MegaSean45]

Wow, Jo sounds alot like River Song! Also, look, she has the round things! This Doctor has style!

[@the11thdoctor40]

I prefer This Doctor that has 10 minutes of Screen time, more than the Doctor who has 2 seasons and 2 specials of “Development”

[@beingdeleted9231]

If she's pre hartnell that means the Doctor broke two Tardis' or fixed the Tardis landed, it back on Gallifrey and then stole it again breaking it in the exact same way as before

[@finnstewart4747]

I love that you can see the headpiece of the Chamelion arch still hanging in the Fugitive Doctor's TARDIS. I never noticed that before.

[@ThomasHerlofsen]

I love Segun Akinola’s music, but sometimes I really don’t like how the sound is mixed in these last two series. It’s too busy, with the music too loud. The first part of this really illustrates this. The «I’m the Doctor»-bit really needs some silence surrounding it to breathe.

[@MondasProductions]

This is one of the best twists in the show's history, I just hope we get to see more of Jo Martin as the Doctor! Give Jo her own series, she deserves it!

[@justabit6526]

It was a really nice twist at first, but after the timeless children it kinda... just feels bad

[@stephenmurphy2212]

Ruth’s Tardis interior looks exactly like the one Fam escaped Gallifrey in.

[@Squicx]

Because they cheap

[@misterlyle.]

Artistic license for a dramatic moment, even if it ignores franchise continuity; if it were any other appearance, we wouldn't know what it was.

[@fartherthanspace4473]

@@Squicx no lol it's because that's the stock tardis interior, in the actual continuity, that's what tardis' look like from the start

[@Squicx]

@@fartherthanspace4473 nah it’s bullshit that’s what it is

[@fartherthanspace4473]

@@Squicx tell me, have you watched hell bent?

[@moreredarcherlive]

The amount of dislikes this has is just sad, man This was one of the best twists the show had pulled off in years, I don't care if it was heavily influenced by Human Nature.

[@MrCdawson17]

Wasnt what influenced it though. John Hurt's War Doctor was a part of that though.

[@user-lb9xw4xf2q]

Influenced? As in, it repeated without variation yet with far less emotional impact?

[@s7ppy]

what dislikes lol

[@stefanlaluna8167]

possible next twist Chib-twit will come up with the Master and the Doctor are the same person

[@jortseh]

bit of a theory, but i think Ruth’s doctor comes after the war doctors. reason being is that she’s more open to using weapons and fighting and we never really saw who Hurt turned into (and before you say that there’s an official vid that says “John Hurt to Eccleston” just remember that chibnall wrote this) also the two interiors are quite similar and it would make sense for the doctor to go into hiding, thinking he/she is a monster for destroying gallifrey, so she digs the tardis into the ground and uses the chameleon arch to disguise her.

[@langleysenterprise5134]

hmmm if you say Ruth's doctor comes at least after 12, I would agree with you just cause back then its been established that you as a time lord can only go through 12 regenerations

[@josephjohnson3371]

Love this! Been watching for over 40 years.....this just deepens the Doctor's enigma. Love it!!!

[@siennaistrans]

tbh i hope they use Jo Martin to retcon the timeless child reveal, like, Jo knows the master would be lying but because she's a previous doctor she wouldn't know that the current doctor was told, which opens a lot of plot holes but those could be filled too and smoothed out, chibnalls choice ruined the doctor and it needs to be changed tbh

[@Tubeguy46]

What if jo Martin's doctor and the timeless child are different timelords entirely, who bore the title of the doctor before Hartnell

[@briansilva3344]

Parallel world?

[@smileyman1721]

Would that still make Hartnell and the others just an ordinary Time Lord/Gallyfreyan?

[@Tubeguy46]

@@smileyman1721 yes, if the title of the doctor is something you attain at a certain point, like general or luitenant

[@byronstory3291]

Please bring her back she's too good

[@stephen5060]

Personally, I prefer her Doctor to Jodie's. The Fugitive Doctor is echoing 12, but I prefer that to the conflicting personality traits that make up 13.

[@Gbedgie]

The moment I saw Joe Martin playing the Doctor I realized that I had not got used to or ever liked Jodie Whitaker in this role

[@fadikhoory5350]

Doctor: Why have a blank gravestone Me: because if it would be near the sea, the writing could have been eroded from the water. If Chibnall can write Martin's doctor better than why can't he do the same with Whittaker? Edit: And it's in the course of 5 minutes!

[@drguthrie7621]

Jo Martin's doctor got a level of authoritive confidence I love, wish we could get her full time tbh

[@MaraFreddie]

Wait! Wait. The doctor was arrested and in jadoon before jack rescued her. The other doctor is running from them. She’s after her that’s why she doesn’t know her face.

[@darkage1524]

At some point the doctor will probably find a way to regain all their memories and maybe even become the timeless child again

[@nicholasmills6489]

Those that like this plot twist; don’t understand the lore of the doctor; don’t care for the doctor; haven’t watched enough doctor. I cannot believe people love this, it’s done so much damage. I’ve not watched dr who since. I’ve been a bigger dr who fan than most of the commentators here.

[@a.m.2075]

Thank you. It should have ened with the 12th doctor.

[@OverWims]

Agreed. The bit that annoys me the most isn't the adding of the new continuity but the fact that it literally makes no sense. She can't be before Hartnell as she has a police box TARDIS. Was she meant to have a police box, it get taken by the TimeLords, dumped in the junk yard cos the chameleon circuit didn't work. The Doctor (post memory wipe) then just happened to steal the exact same TARDIS?

[@MichaelO2000]

As someone who has watched all of the modern series and a lot of the most well known episodes of the Classic Series (An Unearthly Child, The Dalek Invasion of Earth, The Three Doctors, The Brain of Morbius, The Deadly Assassin, Logopolis, Madwyn Undead, The Two Doctors, etc) How fucking dare you say people who like this part of the show aren’t real fans. Get the hell out of here with your gate keeping nonsense.

[@nicholasmills6489]

@@MichaelO2000 don’t believe you somehow looking at your young profile picture.

[@rickmarr8784]

That's the mystery, is she the future or a forgotten past. I think it's the past that got extracted from her memories and locked away by the time lords. Because the Doctor did use guns and this other Doctor went for her gun after she remember everything.

[@krisbadwolf9429]

A better Doctor in 5 min than Jodie was in all this time

[@carlacristina5613]

For loses like you.

[@krisbadwolf9429]

@@carlacristina5613 what's a "loses?"

[@krisbadwolf9429]

@@brewingstation9764 I felt that way too until I saw Jo and then I was ok with it

[@joemachado33]

I hope the Doctor has simply been in the Matrix this entire regeneration thus far and the Master has simply been playing with her mind, trying to get her to turn dark or whatever.

[@venth6]

RIP doctor who died in 2017

[@enzoclarke1259]

I thought she was the Rani at first 😱

[@timelordrock2954]

I thought she was the Valeyard lol - we’re in that time period when he’s supposed to appear, so I wouldn’t have been surprised. Well I would’ve been, but you get what I mean.

[@enzoclarke1259]

@@timelordrock2954 yeah I get you 😂

[@tardisglitch547]

@@timelordrock2954 she can't be the valeyard because it was explained the valeyard can't regenerate at all, which is why it's only ever played by Michael jayston

[@timelordrock2954]

@@tardisglitch547 yes, but it would be an interesting story if he had worked out how to regenerate - maybe in the far future, he did steal the Doctor‘s incarnations, and she has to work out how to get them back. Just ideas, idk.

[@stephenmurphy2212]

The Rani still hasn’t made her new series debut yet. 😞

[@maximjursa256]

I feel like most of these comments are fake

[@applesfromthegroundsir3009]

You'd be right for most of them

[@martyevans1]

I think because of how bad the show is now, most ex fans don’t even bother coming here anymore. Why I’m even still here is a mystery.

[@astrosleep9625]

@@martyevans1 same

[@temp-anon_3690]

worst episode ever for me

[@martyevans1]

@@astrosleep9625 I don’t understand how people can watch the show after the timeless children. They can’t have liked the show that much if they’re happy for the entire history to be rewritten.

[@AlanomalyOfficial]

In any context other than what was actually given, this would be great.

[@lukusblack6442]

I did love all of that apart from a few small details. She carried a gun, and the chameleon thing wasn't a watch. I realize things change, but they're details people are going to notice. Also, the first thing our Doctor should have said when she entered the Tardis was "You've changed the desktop theme... I don't like it...". I know... I know... but it would give some people a laugh.

[@EditedAF987]

Well it’s not like they said that Chameleon arches aren’t capable of being integrated into different devices, we’ve only seen two others prior to this afterall.

[@lukusblack6442]

@@EditedAF987 True, and I'm not saying they can't be. I'm just saying it's what most people would expect. It's less integrity, and more tradition, I guess... or even just nostalgia. That little spark of something in you when you see her pull out the watch...

[@EditedAF987]

@@lukusblack6442 nah, Chibnall already nostalgia bated us enough this series. The lack of inspiration really shows in this series

[@MH5XXXX]

That's an episode that I would need some serious alcohol to drink.that is a twilight zone moment.

[@Legendary_sartorian]

jack is going to get a nose bleed over 2 female doctors at the same time and he still wont be able to tell what hes thinking

[@lindagoad2163]

Fairly sure hes bi so it wouldnt make any difference what sex they are.

[@Legendary_sartorian]

@@lindagoad2163 please im pretty sure capt. jack harkness is into anything sentient, but most of all the doctor

[@JeroAstra]

If they're talking at the same time, then with the talk of alternate dimensions in Spyfall Part 2, this Doctor is still THE Doctor, but from an alternate dimension. Especially since they both act nearly the same.