The Early Drafts of A Clash of Kings from 1997

[@Mj_Jetson]

I interpreted Melisandre's "years beyond count" to mean Mel has no clue how long she spent studying? She was underground like Bran, or at least lost the day-night cycle stuck in perpetually-dark Asshai, and everyone around her was glamouring themselves, so they weren't visibly aging?

[@umwha]

They must have some time keeping. Even is Mel glamours herself she would still see her own true from and notice that she’s aging

[@kynan1232]

Unless she's a fire wight. She doesn't eat or sleep either.

[@GodKingReiss]

All of the maesters leaving for Oldtown at the same time would’ve been catastrophic for wartime communication. Not every lord or commander is literate, and not all who read would also be able to skillfully write. I imagine that must’ve been considered in the editing process as well.

[@KaritKtana]

And the entire realm would lose its most skillful healers? No highborn ladies would be able to give birth during that time?

[@7PlayingWithFire7]

​@@KaritKtana clearly abandoned that as it'd be silly

[@FateHasWritersBlock]

Bran riding Dancer despite being told not to isn't really a big personality shift when you think he was told not to climb and did anyway

[@phnompenhandy]

I've scoured all the early draft leaks in a state of fascination; have to say, however, ALL the final versions GRRM settled on are improvements on the drafts.

[@Jotari]

I think there could be definite advantages to introducing Daario earlier.

[@champadin1755]

I honestly thought Cersei's Mole was going to be a deleted subplot about a mole that Cersei had on her face

[@gokbay3057]

Or elsewhere on her body but yeah the same.

[@umwha]

Wow, I never knew all maesters had a glass candle!! That’s probably the most outstanding and consequential cut plot element I’ve ever heard in this series !! I bet this is inspiring theories

[@FrenulemEnjoyer]

Isnt it in the printed version that just all the grandmaesters have one? And that only Marwin cares about it. I could be remembering wrong

[@MrGruzefix]

like an emergency "time to kill magic again"-warning light, that flicks on every time dragons reappear which gathers the maesters to the citadel.

[@PrestonJacobstheSweetrobin]

@@FrenulemEnjoyer There are only four glass candles in the published one. Each archmaester has a mask and rod.

[@umwha]

So the deleted passages about Jon and Arya thinking about each other indicates that George was still considering the Jon Arya incest even in the first draft of Clash? Damn that’s late. Does that mean that GoT was written with that plot intended?

[@MrBell-iq3sm]

It is weird how much incest there is and was intended for this series.

[@autje1970]

Everyone having a glass candle makes a Grand Maester Conspiracy a lot easier.

[@Nicholas-v7c]

All you need is one maester with a glass candle to communicate and influence other maesters

[@OneOnOne1162]

28:45 - Well, I think it's worth remembering "What is a comet?" A comet is a ball of ice. It seems to me that the magic in the setting is at least partially dependent on the balance between ice and fire. And so a comet coming in, tipping the balance to ice, causes the awakening of the magic of fire to restore the balance. Somehting like that.

[@baitbait65]

Stars and comets in Elden Ring are living beings. Maybe the comet in the books is the grand daddy dragon.

[@kyleholmes8230]

Or a volcrin

[@FlameQwert]

seems like the logical link to the moon hatching dragons

[@kynan1232]

@@kyleholmes8230 That's such a dumb theory. Let the fantasy be fantasy

[@kyleholmes8230]

@@kynan1232 you replied to a troll comment I made 2 months ago, so I'll humour you. Is elden ring fantasy? Yes? Ok, so now that we've established that we can discuss the differences between sci-fi and fantasy. If you haven't seen the interview with GRRM himself about the concept of "the furniture rule" I suggest you watch it. There is no difference other than perception. Science beyond comprehension is therefore perceived as magic yada yada yada. I know only you and carmine will read this but I hope you keep an open mind in the future. ❤️

[@kynan1232]

@@kyleholmes8230 It still cheapens it for the audience. What is even the point if the comet is some weird sci-fi psychic thing? The comet in the actual story doesn't matter because of what it DOES, it matters because every character interprets the "sign" in a different way, thinking that it applies to them.

[@connorrammler3064]

Is it really that weird for theon to ask about the maester? Maesters are also teachers for the Lord's children so it's likely theon was with the maester at least a few times a week. To me It's like running into your old elementary school teacher

[@7PlayingWithFire7]

Its not weird. Especially as the prologue speaks of how close the maester is with the baratheon boys. Preston often takes a very basic line, reads too much into it, and thinks he's smarter than george and the other readers. Same way he points at things he thinks are mistakes, when that requires assuming his analysis is correct. Not saying he isn't smart. But you catch my drift

[@ev1677]

It's not weird, Preston just creates things because this is an income for him and there's been no new material for years.

[@therealmarkg171]

Daario being in Qarth at the same time as Urrathon Nightwalker? Daario = Euron confirmed

[@MoonManTheories]

Great discussion. Thanks guys and thanks to Gsteff

[@Mj_Jetson]

Nothing in the drafts explains the green glass candle in AFFC? "Pate knew about the glass candles, though he had never seen one burn. They were the worst-kept secret of the Citadel. It was said that they had been brought to Oldtown from Valyria a thousand years before the Doom. He had heard there were four; *one was green and three were black*, and all were tall and twisted." (Prologue AFfC)

[@stupidminotaur9735]

Green working black burnt like light bulbs.

[@jacksliwa9447]

The Jon and Mormont conversion is probably another hint that his "real" name is Aemon. But I do think it was removed to preserve the age ambiguity.

[@Mj_Jetson]

Hmmm ok for Varys to be the mole, he can't listen through the walls, since Tyrion never says his Myrcella-Dorne plan aloud in the book... I guess a little bird could read the letters, if Tyrion left them unattended prior to taking it to Pycelle? Varys does a very good job at being confidently wrong about the contents of the letters: he comes to Tyrion after his chats with Pycelle and LF, indicates that he overheard Tyrion's conversation with LF about sending Myrcella to the Vale, and that he knows Tyrion sent a letter to Dorne with terms of alliance, guessing that to sweeten the deal, Tyrion offered Doran the wardship of one of Joffrey's siblings. When Tyrion asks which one, Varys replies: "Tommen. You could scarcely offer Myrcella to Doran Martell and Lysa Arryn both." (Tyrion IV ACoK) I suppose you could read that line as very knowing? Pycelle supports the Lannisters because he thinks Tywin is a good leader... he's a little oblivious to how paranoid and short-sighted Cersei is, but he's still less impressed with her than he is Tywin... he knows the Dorne alliance is a good idea, and that Cersei would blow up about it... yeah, I could see him keeping it from her. And since Varys probably thinks he's got a better show at getting Dorne to join YG than the Vale, that's extra incentive for him to inform Cersei, to try to prevent the Lannister-Martell alliance...

[@Mj_Jetson]

The problem with connecting Varys' deep voice to his non-missing balls (wow that's a sentence I never thought I'd say LOL) is that Varys also drops the fake falsetto voice when he tells the story of how he gets cut: "when Varys spoke again his voice was different somehow" (Tyrion X ACoK). Would kinda break the narrative if he was lying here?

[@Mj_Jetson]

With Varys being a Blackfyre (and I guess Serra Mopatis being his sister? Vaerys and Saera Blackfyre?) any ideas on where he fits into the Blackfyre family tree? Aerys hires Varys sometime after 278... Cuz if Varys (and Serra) were born a bit before 260, then that makes them excellent candidates to be Maelys' kids... Maelys killed his only kid in the draft but that was cut, so its presumably not canon? Could inform their childhood - perhaps Varys was sold to the mummers after his father died in the War of the Ninepenny Kings, the same way some of the Rogares were sold off when their family's power collapsed? Add some fun nuance to Varys' interactions with Barristan, his father's killer? It would make Varys about 40... hired by Aerys in his early 20s... somehow no one in Westeros was aware that Maelys had kids and Illyrio was lying when he said the Blackfyres were extinct in the mal line?

[@frederickchambers]

Holy shit hes bald. Preston I’ve been listening to your voice for years. This is the first time I’ve seen your face. I can’t wait till R+L=D. Also Jon being the next sword of the morning! It makes way to much sense.

[@baitbait65]

So the crows carrying messages were a cover for the maester's magic candles? Interesting parallel to the Night's watch guarding the magical wall.

[@joefo458]

“roughly…151 years ago” Hmm, that seems pretty specific. Maester Conspiracy confirmed?!

[@AGuyWithAChannel]

This draft not including stuff on the House of the Undying is a real-life version of that page from The World of Ice and Fire about Summerhall being almost illegibly damaged.

[@nonyabusiness775]

If they all had a glass candle that would change the entire history of ISOIAF - All Measters had glass candles during the dance of the dragons? Really??

[@MrGruzefix]

I am just so glad Briennne did not get gang r@ped in the print version. That would have been to far and there is enough sexual @ssault in the books as it is. Probably best he deleted that

[@jclaburn]

Love this series!

[@standuplive1]

Varys being the leaker requires him being able to know what information is in the two letters. He would have to be pretty shrewd to know it was to the doranish. Pycelle was the leaker. Varys knew that tyrion was testing them whole time.

[@houseflan2505]

No the story is Ned got the Fishermans daughter pregnant . That was before he went North to raise banners. Ned and Ashara!

[@RJ-my4yu]

It was the raven all along!

[@elisebrodeur-jacobs5215]

Preston Jacobs, my man!

[@Merullan]

Isn't actually Jon being older confirm N+A=J? And Martin decided it's not the way and it's actually (and sadly) R+L

[@rampantrambling]

I think it was more of a slip. I think the intent here was that Jon is supposed to be older, but everyone thinks the the younger one because of ned's story. I think this was just George slipping up on the technicality of the fact that Jon, and everyone else, have to think he's the younger one. Just a simple mistake that he trimmed out.

[@7PlayingWithFire7]

wait why would it? Ned doesn't bed Cat until after the war, not before it.

[@Merullan]

@@rampantrambling Yes, might be it, I was just pointing that if Jon is older than Rob it would confirm N+A and I am not certain about timing with R+L

[@Merullan]

@@7PlayingWithFire7 Well, everything with Ashara (like beding) would be before the wedding with Cat

[@nononono3421]

I bet originally Mel was supposed to use a glass candle, then he changed his mind and made it just magic, then by AFFC he brought them back for whatever reason (probably a bad reason, like the glamor to undo Mance’s death). The AFFC/ADWD draft makes it clear that Rattleshirt was supposed to still be alive since he went north with Jon to Hardhome, which would make no sense to have that be Mance. Mance is probably the character GRRM regrets killing, causing him to write himself into a corner with the silly glamors.

[@7PlayingWithFire7]

Do you mean that the ruby was originally a glass candle, but later it just became a device for glamour?

[@ashleyrodd8729]

Plus, with one known volcano in Westeros, where are they getting the obsidian to be making so many glass candles?

[@furtsmagee1513]

Dang I wish we got all the glass candles

[@JoniukasVader]

Back are we and

[@AbdullahBinPhucking]

I used a glass candle to make him say that

[@loki_l_1380]

The edition of a clash of kings that you see in the thumbnail I actually own! I have the first three books that all have the same cover style. Theyre beautiful. And were super cheap where I picked them up.

[@stupidminotaur9735]

Glass candles. 1. older computers had light bulbs in them and on the outside of them to tell when on and to provide light . 2. some older computers had the loading screen as a light bulb. 3. staring at light bulbs is was a thing and youd get lost staring at them/similiar to computers. red comet.. 1. could be a satellite it sensed the dragon so it shoot out from the moons trying to locate the dragons. 2. dragons being born does something/releases something so its/red coment goes looking for the dragons.

[@MrFirextinguisher]

52:18 It’s kinda funny, I hear that Jon is older than Robb and my first thought is, “Wow, that makes the idea that he’s Ashara Dayne and Brandon/Ned’s son more probable because their relationship must of predated the marriage if it’s several moon turns”

[@emanooo813]

Maybe Viseryon will be killed and after torturing the assassin, it's discovered that they were sent by the Citadel.

[@chadsummerchild1120]

Secret Acok notes

[@SirBallsDeepOfHouseManthrust]

Preston please continue your AGoT chapter analysis! I had such a good time listening to those, it made work go by so fast!

[@justsomedude5727]

I find it more odd for the Iron Islands to have maesters at all, why would they?

[@7PlayingWithFire7]

Same reason Northerners would ? Why would Iron Islanders be the only ones who refuse a servant who can do useful stuff for them ?

[@louisroy4911]

I’m not sure about the whole Tyrion seeing 1 or 2 ravens fly out. Maybe I’m missing details from that scene. Couldn’t Pycell just open one letter, read or copy the content then send a raven anyway? Why would he need the actual letter to report on Cersei?

[@profoundpronoun4712]

Love ya big P ❤

[@n0bnarb98]

Wowweee, I’ve always wanted to hear Preston talk about ACOK.

[@MrGruzefix]

wiener - wiener wiener - wiener wiener - wiener wiener - wieeeeeeeeeeener wieeeeeeener wiener -wiener wiener ...

[@shinjinobrave]

Almost as good as when he talks about the HOT D.

[@convenientlyshapedlamp8664]

PRESTOOOOONNN!!!

[@Brellowcrop]

I think the comet was the crucial element for the rebirth of dragons. The dragons create more more powerful fire magic

[@-zSoloSz-]

logically speaking jon should be older. lyanna is "kidnapped" by Rhaegar weeks/months before the ned got married. Ned has to travel home from the vale and call the banners, then travel to the neck and riverlands, and even that is after brandon and rickard stark got into shit with the mad king. plenty of time for hanky panky to make baby jon before ned is even wed I'd say.

[@StrangeGamer859]

What is the argument for Varys not being an eunuch?

[@j946atFIVEFOUR88AA]

this the type of video you gotta watch at 2x speed 😂

[@chrisp1259]

Jon is Neds/Asharas kid confirmed

[@MrGashdash]

rob could have been conceived first, and john could stil be the older of the two...

[@fredchung9300]

John may have been born from Ashara before he married Catelyn. He was forced to marry Catelyn and keep his fathering of Jon by Ashara a secret

[@thedornishmanswife3712]

Mel is being glass candled

[@jclaburn]

I continue to maintain since last week that George’s March 11 Not A Blog is the bomb George Martin announcement, in code like only he does, he’s bit the bullet and he’s putting out the 1,200 pages they have now on June 7, 2024 most likely, or else later in June or July this year. This is 2011 all over again. It just can’t wait any longer, and he has more than enough for a long book. George spent since October 2022 nightmarishly finishing all the remaining chapters he had to in order to to release the 75% of the story he had plus a final 10% more. Basically, he had to write the chapters he probably skipped where Dany gets raped by Mago and Jhogo and the River-Runs-Red wedding led by Stoneheart and a couple of others like these, which were agonizing for him to do but he did it. ‘Spaghetti’ Jeff, Founder & Admin of ‘A Theory of Ice & Fire’ Space on Quora

[@Gooseplan]

House of the dragon trailer!

[@BaalFridge]

Ok but what if Varys BOTH has balls and is a merman? Merballs! (I'll see myself out)

[@christophermills4067]

Team green

[@lonemotheo1964]

Shame

[@MrGruzefix]

@@lonemotheo1964 ding.

[@knee_grow4892]

First

[@OneOnOne1162]

45:58 - Doesn't Dany have like a sex scene with Irri on the ship? Or am I misremembering that? Maybe that was originally with Daario.

[@fazediamond5671]

I believe she does

[@Kindafu]

If Ned fathered Jon on the fisherman’s daughter, then the bastard story does make sense, timing wise

[@PrestonJacobstheSweetrobin]

That is very true

[@drew413]

I always wondered about Tyrion’s offer @33:35, had Cersei learned about the other plots (Theon or Robin Arryn), would Tyrion have sent Marcella there? Did he only choose Dorne because that’s the one Cersei learned about, or did he really think it was the best option?

[@wizardsummoner9124]

That's the show version, the book is a bit more complex. He always planned to send her to Dorne but he released other rumors to see which one spreads.

[@tucker-mk5zd]

On jon being older than rob It could be that Ned fathered Jon before the marriage. On Ashara or that fishwife weve heard about

[@randomchannel9473]

Come to think of it, Jon being older would make Catylen's suspicion of Ashara being the mother make sense. As it is now, it's like when would he have had time if Jon was younger but only by a few months?

[@SHARKVADERS]

PJ IS BACK FOMOS

[@jayk8756]

Without fail

[@notthis9586]

The Fomos stay losing

[@iamsheel]

​@@dw1419who you're talking about it

[@michaelstalkfleet6989]

For the Ashara is the Fisherman's Daughter commenters, in Gaelic iaschaire means "fisherman" and gean means "daughter" With Jon being two months younger than Rob, that pretty much proves Ned and Ashara, which is why he deleted it, to maintain the mystery.

[@parastroika2393]

@michaelstalkfleet6989 The timeline for 282AC - 284AC is a bit of a hot mess and we know less than we think we do. I've read a bunch of different timelines and they all have to make assumptions because of GRRM's slippery writing. Even if you take the text at face value where no-one is intentionally lying there's not really much we can say for certain when mapping out the events of Roberts Rebellion and the relative time between them. We know Robb was conceived in the fortnight after the Battle of the Bells (Catelyn X, AGoT), but we're not even certain whether that was in 282 or 283 (The Lost Lord, ADwD). We also know that Jon is around 8-9 months older than Daenerys (SSM - July 11, 1999), but we're not sure when that was because we don't know when the Sack of Kings Landing took place, it's said that a Lannister army was outside Kings Landing a fortnight after the Battle of the Trident (Jaime II, ASoS), though looking at a map that seems like a ridiculously short time to march ~800 miles (assuming Tywin was at Casterly Rock) and we don't know how long they were outside the gates before they were let in. We don't even know when Roberts Rebellion 'ended' because Ned is said to have gone south after the Sack to fight the final battles of the war (Eddard II, AGoT), though we never hear of any other 'battles', just ending the Siege of Storm's End & the Tower of Joy (which aren't really battles in the context of a war). Also, Ned never thinks of Jon as his child in any of his chapters in AGoT, he's always "the boy". I'm in the camp of B+A=J and R+L=D, with a baby swap at Starfall. We don't know where Brandon or Ashara were before he was killed in Kings Landing and we don't know how much time Rhaegar and Lyanna spent together. Jon and Daenerys could both be older than they think they are, the actual events of their births aren't as concrete as people think they are. Explanations like "Cat would know Jon was older" fall flat because babies are born at different sizes and grow at different rates (particularly in a society with pre-modern Pediatrics), she's also a first time mother with Robb and wouldn't be an expert.

[@Jotari]

Dario being introduced in Clash is better than pushing him to latter and dedicating more time to his introduction.

[@ThumbBandit04]

Caitlyn and the foreshadowing of the seeing herself in stpne in the mirror: Are there allusions other than the old starks in the crypts of being trapped in stone and essentially only being able to wstch? People all say they felt their presence in the crypts and like they were being watched... If so, is there any text that describes how Robb handles/interacts with his crown? There is a passage about how LSH is in a cave sitting there with the crown in front her and she is kinda just holding it in her hands, not quite fidgetting with it. When Bran wargs into Hodor, Hodor iss still in there and hiding in his little safe place. What if Robb warged into his mother instead of his direwolf and, much like being trapped in stone, she is in somee little nook inside herself and letting Robb control the body? Robb's dying words were "Mother" as Jon's was 'Ghost." Evetyone is speculating based on the assumption that Robb has had the true death sincec they killed his wolf right affter he was killed. But what if? It's not impossible given the rules of the book. We just need to see if ther are any subtle clues and i can only think of the handling f the crown and obsession with it and his last word. The revenge part too but a mother would want that too.

[@Pikepaw]

Daario = Quhuru Mo confirmed!! I knew all along! The evidence is all there!

[@tychoclavius4818]

Huh?

[@KaritKtana]

What's most convincing to drop the proliferation of Glass Candles to me, which was barely brought up here, is that it's completely OP-ing! So in hundreds of points across the continent people have access to mind-warping telepathic FaceTime devices? It's a crazy anomaly to have something SO overpowered be SO common. Magic is supposed to be rare, and to incur a price - a heavy price - to wield. An abundance of GCs is an inflation of magic, decreasing its value. And it ALSO decreases the limitations and challenges of living in this para-medieval world, which are essential to the story! Writers need limitations in their made-up worlds and this would just be too much to circumvent those limitations, it'll mess up too many plots. Characters do act with limited information, take a long time to reach places, etc. I do like the idea of immortality ONLY in the context of paralleling the GCs to the WW net. It strengthens the argument for ice/fire dualities everywhere 👍 but again - OP!

[@Paradoxymoronic]

Preston, have you ever considered that the story Ned gives is that Robb was fathered first, but Jon was born first? Could be trying to pass Jon off as prem

[@slide4]

varys pinning pycelle for me is just to get rid of a loyal character to the lannisters

[@danielbasich2729]

We are back! Love it!

[@jclaburn]

Daario always had a swaggering pirate personality, and I wondered that he was a sell-sword not a ship captain, so this makes total sense as his original introduction! But George decided for other reasons to introduce him by having him kill others for Dany and making him a cavalry leader so he could do more and keep coming and going in Meereen.

[@PurpleAlogia]

What did Kevan notice about Varys??

[@OfficialRedTeamReview]

how deep his voice is despite his situation

[@trenchardjj]

Bran going on his gruelling journey North, with excitement, and Sam going South, unenthusiastically, to do the same thing, is interestig.

[@nobodycareswhatithink]

I’ve been thinking about what an odd character Syrio Forell is. I know people think he’s a faceless man but I think about what if he’s not.

[@kenogallegos2116]

it makes sense for Pyp to be the one to offer to switch places with Sam if he meant it as a joke

[@Hoosier765]

And we're back

[@ZoomReverseFlash]

Good on Preston for figuring out the glass candles' importance in the long run.

[@beanhoof2512]

always surprised and skeptical that carmine read

[@OfficialRedTeamReview]

same

[@keegannoble1809]

Is it plausible that glass candles control or puppet these fire wights? We can assume that a remnant of the original person exists within a fire wight. Lady Stoneheart for example does seem to have the memories of Cat, but her and Beric (and potentially Jon) seem to get their ability to be reanimated by some third person controlling their body.

[@leftofyou]

The glass candle passage is great, but it would have been difficult to handle once they all started burning again. The published way gives the tech of these things time to bleed out into the story.

[@brianrewa8693]

Sounds like Pip was making sarcastic suggestion to goat Grenn into stating the obvious.

[@LSK1]

Hey

[@МахамбетМамыров]

+++

[@frankcommatobe8009]

Fan fic idea: Dany is possessed by an ancient Valyrian trapped in a glass candle (maybe an experimenter or a prisoner like being banished to the phantom zone) and that’s what causes the craziness which leads to her death. Maybe the glass candle has Daenys the Dreamer’s consciousness or Daenys was also possessed by this Valyrian force. Maybe this could tie into the doom and the faceless men origin

[@frankcommatobe8009]

Maybe in the final moments of the doom, the top mages poured their consciousness into the glass candle net and their deranged vengeful souls are in the glass candle net.

[@frankcommatobe8009]

This would fit GRRM’s themes in Nighflyers. Latent malevolent/mysterious forces which beget chaos

[@bestoftheshit]

Fomooooos