The ECM motor; the bad. Part 2

[@samtran7996]

We appreciate the concise, funny, and educational video. My fiancée and I are researching HVAC systems and your honest insight has been extremely helpful. Thank you!

[@grayfurnaceman]

Welcome GFM

[@edbouhl3100]

Yes, replacing a bad varistor 2 years ago saved me a bunch! Instead of $600 plus for the ECM motor, I spent a few $ on the varistor and about $40 in soldering supplies. Would never have found it if it wasn’t in an offhand remark made in another KZbin video (it only took 2 days to find it - good thing I’m retired). Back in business until I switch from gas to an air source heat pump (which will be a few more years).

[@joer6571]

1,000,000% of the ECM failures I have run into were due to power surge/brown out and a few high static pressure issues. In the newer furnaces I have installed myself, no ECM motors have failed that I know of, I have been back to replace PSC motors. I try to sell ECM variables and constant torque blower motors exclusively due to having better longevity in my experience. Most situations where the duct is too small, I have had very good results undersizing the furnace and dialing in the blower speed to the temp rise. Removed a 100k btu furnace with a cracked heat exchanger feeding two 10x8 supply ducts. Installed 60k and was able to drop the constant torque motor down to medium speed. Kept the motor happy, the heat gain was dead nuts middle of the factory spec range.

[@grayfurnaceman]

Not meaning to beat you up, but how did you determine the ECM failure was due to surge/power problem? I have found, like you, that most furnaces are oversized. In many cases, the furnaces are double the size necessary. Often, the structure has added insulation or better windows than when new. GFM

[@Jon-hx7pe]

If the house stays warm the coldest night of the year, you're not undersizing, you're properly sizing them. To justify 100k the house better be huge or in the arctic.

[@joer6571]

@@grayfurnaceman Generally units that have constant power to the motor, happen to fail during surges and brown outs. Cannot be coincidence. In my own experience, installing furnaces for the past 20 yrs, the ECM drive have been more reliable than PSC. This is with equipment I have installed myself. So, I am assuming that all the guys I hear complaining about ECM are likely over sized furnaces/blower. Again, this is just my experience, and due to that I will keep pushing ECM motors until PSC are phased out. Also, the equipment I sell, the ECM blowers are no where near $1,000.

[@joer6571]

@@Jon-hx7pe Agreed, typing while busy trying to make a point.....

[@Jon-hx7pe]

@@joer6571 I suspect one of the problems is that installers are leaving the ecm motors at factory settings. Even small ecm equipped furnaces come with 3+ ton drives. can have a 40k furnace and the factory cooling set to 1200 cfm, installed on a duct system designed for 600-800 with the house only needing 1.5-2 tons of cooling. Makes for very high static and shortened module life. I've corrected this for two family members - both furnaces installed by so called reputable companies-> one had a 2.5 ton on a 70k/4 ton ecm drive and it was left at 1500 cfm. The other a 1.5 ton on a 3 ton drive psc and it was left on high. being psc and on undersized ducts the cfm wasn't as far off, but still says a lot about the installer. Homeowners are told to never do the work themselves and hire a licensed pro to make sure the job is done right, any useful info needed to make informed choices is kept from them. Yet the "licensed pro", 9 times out of 10 doesn't size or set the equipment up right.

[@rj.parker]

I agree with your points on ECMs. I think a lot of techs forget about the comfort aspects of ecms that customers love once they have experienced it in their home. Soft starts and stops eliminate loud startup and shutdown noises. Variable speeds allow dehumidification strategies that work in most climates. ECMs allow multi-capacity units that often run in low for long periods of time further reducing noise and improving comfort with better air mixing and even temperatures. And, as a side benefit, they will save a few dollars in operating costs. But improved customer satisfaction and comfort is the main selling point and is the reason why people buy $50k trucks instead of the $20k versions. I suspect most techs lack the knowledge to check and repair the "sl22 IRO20" thermistor ($2-$7) which is simply an inrush current limiter that can be jumped out for testing and will normally fail in an obvious manner. This built in part does virtually nothing for externally generated surges since it starts out with a moderate resistance and quickly reduces to almost zero ohms under load. There seems to be a limited group who will actually look at and mitigate static pressure problems, which is a small increment when people are buying a $7-20k system with media filters, uv lights and $500 thermostats. Finally, a whole house surge suppressor should also be on the repair or install quote which can be as easy as popping in a $50 GE THQLSURGE "breaker" into the main panel. The vast majority of electronics failures are due to relatively low level surges that are caused by distant lightning strikes or utility switching. The same thing that knocks out defrost boards, timers and televisions.

[@grayfurnaceman]

Well said. I would like to see better surge suppression incorporated into these products from the factory. GFM

[@1984juant]

This seems to me a great opportunity for business. You can get a solid knowledge in electronics repair, like the one of repairing apple products, and save at least 60% of the cost of new module and labor for a customer. What do you think?

[@grayfurnaceman]

I would limit the repairs to thermistor and rectifier and do the repairs in the field. GFM

[@mobilecommunicationsnetwor5268]

Have you ever come across the ECM motor that sounds like a jet engine winding up? From 2007 ECM Goodman Furnace 97 efficient. Was working fine then changed. No ductwork and air flow issues.

[@grayfurnaceman]

If there is indeed, no restriction, the control for the ECM is probably failing. GFM

[@mobilecommunicationsnetwor5268]

@@grayfurnaceman Thanks will do more testing when the weather warms up.

[@747-k3j]

Any chance you could put a parts list and where to find them? I have the Genteq 5SME39HL0902. Thanks! Great video.

[@loiilaii808]

Both 1/2 and 3/4 HP modules have same physical dimension and share all identical electronic parts. Just the bodies of the motor are different. The larger 3/4 HP motor spins a larger cage and moves larger air volume. It's logical to conclude that both modules are interchangeable. What do you think?

[@grayfurnaceman]

I don't believe so. Some of the modules I have seen have fewer capacitors as an obvious difference. GFM

[@loiilaii808]

What I am talking about is the X13 modules. I have verified the caps, thermistor, rectifier, component with a 474 printed on it, they all are identical on both 1/2 and 3/4 HP modules of the X13 motor. The MOSFET is covered up and I can't identify it. I had installed a 3/4 HP module on a 1/2 HP motor 2 hours ago and guess what. It works as expected under no load condition. Don't know if it works under load or long term effect on the module and motor. Why does this issue matter? less modules in inventory and easier to find parts.

[@Jimddddd1981]

In 15 years I’ve seen dozens of modules fail, but only two failed motors. One the bearings locked up and the other had shorted winding. I’ve found it to be good practice, when replacing a failed module to ohm out the motor windings just to be sure they are good because, although unlikely, failed windings can fry a brand new module. Since ECM motors are technically 3 phase, each winding should have equal resistance values.

[@grayfurnaceman]

Good thoughts. GFM

[@RockoRocko-rz7kx]

Smart. Thanks for your comment. I’m going to use this advise

[@throttlebottle5906]

I say always change the whole thing and shove the bad directly up the manufactures bungholes...... ;)

[@rb8049]

Replace with Nidec rescue motor. EZ16 is easy. Manufacturers are overcharging like crazy. Really should be $200 for a motor with electronics. Electronics are super cheap. It’s all the markups.

[@XMguy]

Also can one get an unprogrammed module and install it if the ECM, and motor itself are ok? I have high and low voltages. It’s a Genteq X13. FM19.

[@grayfurnaceman]

It depends on the manufacturer and model. GFM

[@XMguy]

grayfurnaceman It is paired with a York.

[@grayfurnaceman]

@@XMguy As far as I know, it does not need to be programmed. GFM

[@XMguy]

grayfurnaceman thank you again sir. They’ve gotten cheaper. But I’m considering a PSC conversion. I have bad lightning in my area. If not an unprogrammed/or preprogrammed would work ok? It uses taps 4 and 5.

[@XMguy]

I’ve got a Genteq X13 motor that failed. The motor module did. Too much amp load, frozen coils. I didn’t think of changing the thermistor. Edit. I checked the thermistor. It ohms out to 1.0. Spec. So. Guess it’s something else in the module.

[@Smiletony00]

I hate these ecm failure, epoxy the whole board, no way to fix but replace it, and it cost damn lot of $$$$.

[@loiilaii808]

Are the 1/2 HP and 3/4 HP modules of a X13 motor interchangeable?

[@grayfurnaceman7640]

I am not sure, but I don't think so. GFM

[@chuckquinn8026]

So it looks like a good opportunity for a startup company rebuilding end bells?

[@special_k-hvac]

The newer versions are sealed boards and unable to be fixed

[@WTC7]

@@special_k-hvac is your name Kyle W?

[@raccoon681]

they don't want them fixed

[@hg2.]

Thank you for making and posting. In another video comment dialog, you said "efficiency is the name of the game." I beg to differ: I know this sounds business-school geeky, but the name of the game is value to the customer, i.e. how happy is the customer for the money he's paid. The Feds - those horrible busy-bodies at EPA and DOE - have made a horrible, unnecessary mess out of the HVAC business. ."You don't work for the customer anymore, you work for the government, and the bureaucrats at EPA and DOE."

[@grayfurnaceman]

I field a number of statements condemning the EPA and DOE. If it was not for the EPA, we would still have rivers on fire, cities that had smog so bad that your eyes burned, you could not see more than a few hundred yards and anyone with breathing problems would have to leave. Look at China now. Water so loaded with lead that children suffered permanent brain damage. Garbage dumps that damaged aquifers. Untreated sewage would still be polluting rivers, lakes and streams. If it was not for DOE, there would be no fuel efficiency standards that manufacturers could use as a level playing field for their products to compete. The auto CAFE standards were the driving force behind the technology used in autos today. In our industry, the old standard "80%" furnace wasted fuel with standing pilots, dumped heated air from the structure out of the vent to the tune of an equivalent 2' window being left open, drew combustion air from the structure, had a stack temp of 375 to 500F, high CO numbers, duct temp that was too high and insufficient airflow. Sometimes the restrictions are excessive, but the overall result is far better than going back to before these agencies existed. GFM

[@Jon-hx7pe]

it's unwise to mandate the use of ecms due to the higher cost and issues with them. give the customer the choice. The energy savings aren't that great unless the fan is run continuously. in heating mode you have to burn a little more gas to compensate for less motor heat and any savings can be attributed to the furnace being more efficient than a thermal power plant. unconditioned attic duct systems in new homes should be banned, not psc motors in new equipment.

[@grayfurnaceman]

The part of your comment about burning more gas to compensate for using a more efficient motor does seem a bit ridiculous. Perhaps we should use shaded pole motors because they are even less efficient. ECMs, like any other more efficient device go thru a time of failures and lack of understanding of service techs. Heat pumps are a prime example. My father worked on some of the first heat pumps used by tracking stations for aircraft in the California desert. They were nothing but problems, especially the reversing valves. They work well now. We don't know what ECMs will look like in the future, but they or something like them are here to stay. We can no more go back than we can go back to carburetors on cars. GFM

[@Jon-hx7pe]

It's technically true. It's sold as a greater energy saver than it is. Technically if the electricity in an area is mostly from hydro or nuclear (like quebec canada), in a gas furnace going for an ecm raises fossil fuel consumption. But in those applications if the goal is to conserve fossil fuels it makes more sense to just go electric be it heatpump or even straight resistance and pull the plug on gas. Also, manufacturing electronics is very resource intensive and environmentally destructive. The net resource/environmental impact of an ecm could be worse than a psc in many cases. I also bet, with the repair cost is higher, a lot of units will be replaced prematurely instead of repaired. So much for "going green". ECM motors are have benefits in many applications but aren't for everyone. I'm not against using them. But if you have a single stage furnace with no a/c, fan never used in continuous mode, heating speed is quite high (usually the medium high tap) and an ecm may save 20% on the electric usage of the furnace. it's not worth the extra expense or complexity especially if the electricity is cheap and or generated by non-fossil fuel plants. The problem is, they're going to be forced on people including the elderly and disabled living off of fixed incomes. They can't afford the more expensive equipment, the costly repairs and the duct changes needed to not have premature module failure. It's a fine example of government over-reach. There's an optimal amount of gov't regulation and they're going too far.

[@hg2.]

@@Jon-hx7pe Absolutely! Many points, well taken. The pollution and police have passed the point of diminishing returns. HVAC looks like a horrible mess because of it, and the Ozone stuff is quackery.

[@dennistreacy3595]

If high static is the problem and cannot be easily fixed. Install a psc with X1 module

[@notanewbie1718]

It would be a good video to show how to convert an ecm to a psc motor because the duct system is running too high static pressure and the customer wont have the ducting modified.

[@Jon-hx7pe]

It can't be done unless it's the x13 type motor which uses straight 24v signals. There a universal x13 style ecm motors out there at a much lower cost than oem. They can be used to replace existing x13 motors as well as psc. What's needed is a standardized module and motor for each hp so the production volumes are high and the price can be reduced. The programming can be stored on the board and through a communicating interface automatically downloaded from board to module. No more OEM BS. The manufacturers will never go for that, they want to charge an arm and a leg for proprietary parts.

[@grayfurnaceman]

I will be considering that video. GFM

[@grayfurnaceman]

IFCs were once OEM. Now, general replacement IFCs are common. Tell someone they can make a decent profit by building a general replacement part and they will find a way to do it. GFM

[@hg2.]

@@Jon-hx7pe Notice the complicated contortions and expense inflicted on the customer, all in the name of "efficiency" (LOL), imposed by the dictates from DOE.

[@Jon-hx7pe]

the manufacturers are partially to blame because they want to sell oem parts and mark them up. the solution i proposed would really drop the cost. ecm motors came out long before any gov't pushed for their use, it's just the choice is being taken away.

[@kurtlane6059]

I converted from an X13 to a PSC after two failures within 3 years. Figured the tried and true induction motor just works and is much cheaper. You save NOTHING in efficiency when you re always having to replace ECM motors! In summary, Nikola Tesla got it right the first time!

[@robertmunguia250]

How to troubleshoot and test?

[@grayfurnaceman]

Try this one: kzbin.info/www/bejne/jpeqeXZnhJ6lr80 GFM

[@indosingh468]

hi i need help i got a x13 motor is not working .

[@grayfurnaceman]

Its pretty much power in, no operation, motor has failed. GFM

[@notanewbie1718]

How much cost does the industry expect the consumer to continue to pay for this "expensive technology"? I just dont advise people to invest in this high end equipment. I dont offer it to them. After the parts warranty expires, then the reality sets in when they fail. Believe it lr not , most people arent able to pay these high prices. Its expensive enough to pay for fixing "conventinal" equipment.

[@grayfurnaceman]

It will just get more complicated. It has always been so. We also do not use carburetors on cars. GFM

[@notanewbie1718]

@@grayfurnaceman True. With all due respect to you whose expertise I respect, cars with carbureators are still being used even though they are becoming extinct. I just dont recomend inverter systems and wont till I have no alternative. Its just what I think, that's all.

[@ericspda]

Those prices are absurd. You can get a whole new furnace, WITH an ECM, delivered for under 1K. I got an ECM motor to replace my working PSC motor for $120, and that appears to be in the neighborhood of the going rate for PSC replacement ECM. For whatever reason, the programmed OEM ECM units are crazy expensive.

[@skutahuniai697]

It appears that you think a PSC and an ECM are one and the same. Two totally different operational characteristics and manufacture. You did not get an ECM motor for $120. PSC, yes, but definitely not an ECM.

[@ericspda]

Skutahuniai You can get ECM blower motors for $50 new on eBay, shipped. They’re usually 3/4hp or larger and the less desirable 220V models. The 110v models are a bit more, but $100-150 all day. I got a Century CS89 ECM motor for an ERV and those are about $150. It’s been running a year and saves 150W over the PSC the ERV shipped with. Check eBay for Evergreen 6707 or 6105E.

[@hg2.]

@@ericspda What is an ERV?

[@ericspda]

hg2 Energy Recovery Ventilator. It provides fresh air to a building without the significant heat loss/gain if you were to say open a window or have an exhaust only fan. They run 24/7, so there’s often significant gains moving to an ECM, which some of the high end ones do from the factory.

[@hg2.]

@@ericspda Thank you JD. Everything I've seen so far is ECMs being a "cram down" from the dictators of "energy efficiency" at DOE (while they're simultaneously shutting down nuclear plants and making juice more expensive - epithets, anyone?) ECMs as a comfort enhancer is interesting, but at these prices, why isn't it just being offered as an option, like automatic transmission in cars? That's the way it usually works with these things. I haven't seen any adverts like "try OUR AC systems with 'comfort controlled ECM technology".

[@raccoon681]

I'm just sitting here looking at my vintage hunter psc fan that was built between 1946 and 1949 the original capacitor is still in there. should shell out $20 and service it after over 70 years of use. Have fun with that epoxy. $$$

[@grayfurnaceman]

Are you referring to a ceiling fan? Virtually all of those fans were shaded pole. GFM

[@raccoon681]

@@grayfurnaceman It's a hunter zephair c16 we use daily by a window at work all day just running we don't have any ac. That type of fan has a psc motor and the capacitor is in the base.

[@grayfurnaceman]

@@raccoon681 Ahh, you have what we call a Pre-Nader fan. Referring to the minimal screening of the blade. It is a true "the sh*t hit the fan" device. GFM

[@raccoon681]

@@grayfurnaceman It's funny you mention that there are a few scattered small dings in the blade like someone poked it with something small at ones time.

[@hg2.]

Free People in The Market should decide what motor to use, not the busy-body self-justifying idiots at Department of Energy and Evironmental Protection Agency. (Those two have a partnership called Energy Star - they are the ones screwing up your Air Conditioner, Furnace, washing machine, automobile, pickup truck, electricicy bill...)

[@grayfurnaceman]

Those that cannot keep up with the technology will inevitably step aside. GFM

[@hg2.]

@@grayfurnaceman Sure, that's a great thing to leave your grandchildren: Have the government make things unnecessarily complicated and expensive and lower everyone's standard of living.

[@acrepairnearme]

Please show how to repair it.

[@grayfurnaceman]

I will be doing one on thermistor repair. GFM

[@studypartner9643]

The goal is to fully control your home with government control one step at a time. From your smart meter to your car. Let's say the economy goes bad. Well one push of a button and 37 million people are unknowingly replacing a part through wifi.

[@studypartner9643]

@@Xorg462 well if they called to make things break to keep the economy going, you know I still have a freezer working from 1940s Bet you can't say that about your appliances

[@Sctronic209]

Varistor not thermistor.

[@grayfurnaceman]

SG348. Thermistor. A varistor is connected hot to neutral or across the hot lines to dump spikes. A thermistor is connected in series with the circuit and increases its resistance with the voltage applied. When the varistor fails, the unit keeps running without protection. When the thermistor fails, the circuit opens. GFM

[@hjc4604]

www.ametherm.com/thermistor/what-is-an-ntc-thermistor www.ametherm.com/inrush-current/