The Epistemology of Fiction

[@joshg8053]

I think you hadn't mentioned this sentence from the Tiberian Sun manual. "In the decades following his disappearance, Kane sightings became common myth, especially prevalent amongst regions of former Nod strongholds." This should place the events of C&C 1 in 1995-2010. There's also this from the Tiberian Sun manual. "The conflict between the Global Defence Initiative and the Brotherhood of Nod originated in the late twentieth century." Which I think combine well with this sentece from the C&C Renegade manual. "Throughout the end of the 20th century - and into the 21st - Nod has continued to fuel conflicts in volatile nations by providing them with funding and weapons, effectively growing their loyalty to Nod."

[@BVasquezp]

I like these types of essays. You have a good narrator voice, good pacing and good tone. I wouldn't mind if more of your videos come in this format, especially if it can save you days of editing.

[@bonbondurjdr6553]

Agreed!

[@slacxthemad9683]

Agreed

[@kylebell7879]

Here here!

[@Basileus210]

Fun fact CnC 4 has been removed from steam

[@chrono581]

It's fine I already bought the game

[@dreamcatcherben8214]

*[THE FIREMAN SMILES]*

[@relifed]

Your prioritization of lore sources seems quite fair, it's similar to the prioritization of the lore that the devs of another game I play use (Guild Wars 2), there they told the community that the ingame lore takes precedent over anything found outside of it, including official novels. Specifically ingame lore of the second game > ingame lore of the first game > blog posts > books > interviews. Funnily enough that was also in response to a dating issue where one of the books stated that a race came into existence in the year 1302 while an ingame cutscene stated that it came into being in the year 1300, in this case the year 1300 is the true canon year for this event.

[@ElysiaWhitemoonOmega]

having lore inconsistencies can give a sour taste with the playerbase, like the issues with Balthazar, they should have picked menzies as enemy for Path of fire

[@midwinter78]

I was thinking along similar lines watching the video: having a standard similar to the ones that developers use makes a lot of sense. If there was a definitive master plan which had been set in stone from day 1, of which parts got revealed as games come out, then a different prioritisation might have been in order, but when the devs were several different bunches of people who were making it up as they went along and who weren't afraid to retcon things, then prioritising the things least likely to be retconned makes sense. It's like... imagine we were back in the days before C&C 4 and excitedly trying to guess what might come next, where would the best clues have been?

[@Jethild]

Glad to see you do a video on this topic. I was actually considering doing a similar video, but now I can just point people over to this one. I pretty much agree with everything you said in it. I personally give a little more weight to the word of the developers, even though as you said, they can certainly contradict each other. I will say this is due to a slight bias on my part, since I spent a few years working in the game industry before starting my channel. I don't think many people realize just how difficult it is keeping the writers, programmers, designers and artists all on the same page when making just 1 game. Even more difficult when you want to expand that game into a series, and you've got developers constantly leaving and joining the studio right in the middle of a projects development. If anything, I'm surprised the Tiberium timeline is as consistent as it is considering that Westwood didn't seem to have an official writer on the team at all. But like you said, even if you have an official writer, or team of them, they still have to account for gameplay and most games don't build themselves around story. Obviously there are some studios you could point to as exceptions to the rule, but generally speaking the industry focuses on the gameplay and design aspects, as that is where the greatest amount of fun is derived. And the more fun and entertaining a game is, the more money it will make. Remember, at the end of the day video games are a business, just like movies, TV shows, music and novels. Sorry, didn't mean for that comment to be so long and turn into a side rant about game development in general. Anyway, great video and keep up the good work ^^

[@friktogurg9242]

I think CnC will have to do a tier canon list like star wars if they want to rectify retcons or so on.

[@TheoneknownasVC]

I watch these videos and am blown away with the level of quality and in depth lore talk. Then i see the number of views and i feel like a crime has been committed, that these videos haven't gotten the attention they deserve for the quality of content they offer. Thanks for all the videos! They have helped me alot while i been working on making a TTRPG based in the Tiberium universe.

[@ME-hm7zm]

Do you have any of your stuff online anywhere? A few years back I started working on one myself set during the Tib Dawn era but shelved it to focus on a TT Wargame variant instead.

[@ianwilbanks3015]

I agree with this completely. Also, making games is hard. I certainly don't fault them for making mistakes and/or needing to change things. At the end of the day I don't think this is something to get bent out of shape about.

[@ME-hm7zm]

Your methodology is pretty similar to mine, even putting in-game "dossiers" as lower than other in-game things (because IMO it's important to remember that fictional characters can get facts about their own world wrong). As a personal project, I made a table top wargame of Tib Dawn and spent a while trying to put all these pieces together to try and make some sense of it, only to find out it's all a bit of a mess, hah. FWIW I decided to keep the idea of a 1995 Tib impact (which I swore was somewhere in the Tib Dawn manual...), an outbreak of the First Tib War at 1999, with an end in 2002. I'd seen some people speculate 2019 or 2020 for Tib Dawn but everything just feels way too "90s" for that to sit right with me, and I wanted at least a solid generation between the two Tib Wars for Earth to become a proper mess (setting up for the eventual Tib Sun table to conversion when I get around to it...)

[@willpierce5333]

Tabletop? U finish it. DnD tib war would be so cool!

[@ME-hm7zm]

@@willpierce5333 It was based around GURPS, actually! Check out the blog "Chain Link and Concrete" for what I have hosted. I since shifted focus to the wargame.

[@Laternater]

Ion Cannon ready.

[@Darkfire7881]

It is unfortunate that C&C never got a clear, set out lore. We as fans can make our own interpretations to fill in gaps, but in the end the story does feel disjointed, at least from Tib Sun to Tib War. So I agree that the highest standard of lore comes from the game itself, not outside sources. Not everyone is going to look for them, or even know about them.

[@ElysiaWhitemoonOmega]

i personally do like the idea that Ra1/RA2/generals/TD/TS/TW, is 1 timeline, where Yuri uses knoeledge of the Tacitus to make its army, and when tiberium lands at the Tiber, Thrax of the gla uses it to fuel its toxins, and after the defeat of GLA , tiberium starts to spread across the globe, resulting in the TIB universe

[@BVasquezp]

1:48 ... No such thing as a C&C after Red Alert 3. Thats what I heard, loud and clear.

[@conrad4852]

Re-watching this for the first time in a while. It’s such an interesting aesthetic essay

[@AxelLeJeff]

Having put a lot of thought into this over the course of my life, but not a lot of organization, I have to say I find your timeline compelling. I wish more studios would take an open approach, and be willing to telegraph as much.

[@Arctrooper2091]

I love C&C lore and find it very deep and interesting, but it really is a universe that is a hastily built mess. Lore would change rapidly in development, what lore was finalized in the game tended to be minimal and vague, and there was little long-term planning. This would be further complicated by change in developers as the series went on. This can make it very hard to find consensus and as you say, much of it is subjective based on how one prioritizes the facts. It's frustrating in many ways, but the vague and contentious nature of C&C's lore is in a way part of the charm and appeal. It gives a certain amount of freedom that other more fleshed out and concrete universes do not have. Though that doesn't stop me from wishing that there was some official encyclopedia that explained everything and was accepted by everyone in the community.

[@NoStringsPrd]

Strongly agree with all of this

[@friktogurg9242]

@@NoStringsPrd Canon tier list

[@jotarofatso5743]

What's in your opinion the biggest plot hole/inconsistency in Tiberium lore?

[@NoStringsPrd]

The biggest is probably one of the easiest to solve; when Granger said GDI got the Tacitus in 2028, while TS took place in 2030. It's just a flat out error, where the TS intro FMV states 2030. The most annoying to deal with I think is how Renegade relates to TD, taking place at the same time but being a little inconsistent throughout in a load of small ways

[@Engel990]

I always imagined the tech level being higher in the Renegade missions. Top secret missions that you didn’t get to play in Dawn.

[@friktogurg9242]

@@NoStringsPrd I think CnC will have to do a tier canon list like star wars if they want to rectify retcons or so on.

[@Nyerguds]

There is a lot more info on the background of C&C1 in the game's strategy guides. These seem easily overlooked because they are mostly undigitised due to their huge size, and not immediately included in the game, but they explain a whole lot of small details in the game (such as the original C&C's "Select transmission" screen when starting a new game), so they should definitely not be discounted as just fluff made up by some external author. These guides, especially for the earlier game, contain very interesting additional info that should probably be given the same priority level as the game manuals. Oh, Adam Isgreen's name is pronounced "eyes-green", apparently. Heard him say it in an interview at one point.

[@Nyerguds]

@Alex Addams I specifically gave arguments against that. These older books aren't your average run-off-the-mill externally-commissioned strategy guides.

[@XX-sp3tt]

0:48 In the same year that narrative in video games was compared to narrative in porn... is the same year Planescape Torment was released... a very popular game often called a high fantasy novel disguised as an RPG.

[@MrJappy89]

One of my favorite games of all time is Tiberian sun. I’m a big sci-fi fan and I think Tib sun is a amazing world with a amazing esthetic. for me the best the game has ever been was firestorm, with all the crazy Tiberium plants and animals. Now for the last few years I have been thinking why I don’t like tib wars and tib4. And yes wars is better then 4 but still compared to 1 and 2 it feels lesser. And I think I finally know what my problem is. Tib wars: I’m good with the story, I think they did a good job but it could have been better. I hate the changes they made to tiberium and I just rly prefer all the crazy colours, fauna en all the forgotten (mutants) lore and missions. Tib 4: I hate the story and the fact there is no Tiberium or at least hardly any. I hate the gameplay and that this is where the series ends. But they do 1 think right the units, the terrain and buildings, the overal esthetics are rly good. I think the units in Tib 4 especially the gdi units feel like Tib sun. There big and there clunky. If Tib wars had the esthetics of Tib 4 with the fauna of sun I would have probably love Tib wars. And it just bothers me to this day how Tib wars just didn’t feel like the future of Tiberium sun. It felt like the past.

[@ChristianCollins-ux1zr]

With regards to the 2019 part of the Tib Wars nod intro cutscene, I reckon that while the 1st war didn't start then but an incident between GDI and the emerging Nod, maybe some Nod members claimed they were “exposing GDI’s dirty secrets” to which GDI admitted to. Bolstered by this “victory,” Nod continued to escalate the overall situation until 2020 when it all exploded into the 1st tiberium war.

[@AfroRyan]

Speaking of the Halo lore and developer intent, I've argued, even before Halo 5, that Cortana was going to go rampant, become an antagonist, and them sacrifice herself as part of her story arc. Rampancy is fleshed out in Halo's precursor Marathon (and those are some *mean* AIs let me tell you), and also within Halo's earliest novels. The problem is, in-game it's only mentioned a handful of times before her rampancy becomes an issue. I think a combination of revolving developers, poor upper management, and what is likely a very splintered story bible, led to Halo 5. Realistically that entire story arc SHOULD have taken place within the original trilogy, but took a backseat to "gotta fight them aliens." When you look at Marathon specifically, Bungie originally was both bold with their story, and very reserved, as you could put just about anything in those terminals, or remove them [almost] completely, and not have to change the overall game design. If I had to guess, I assume Halo overall is paradoxically one of the best but also worst examples of design by committee.

[@Proctor_Conley]

The Halo Series makes extensive use of Sociological Storytelling, especially for its' lore (which didn't include books under Bungie), rather than Melodramatic Storytelling. This is why every species represents a type of society structure & future for humanity going forwards. (imperialist humans, theological covenant, feudal elites, capitalist jackals, communist grunts, socialist hunters, factional apocalypse biker brutes, & collectivist/individualist flood). H1 (I know), H2, ODST, Wars, & Reach use Sociological while H3, H4, H5, & Wars 2 use Melodramatic Storytelling which results in the primary conflicting themes & lore. H5 Cortana is the best example. It contradicts everything in the series for her to be alive & needlessly killing organics while leading a Synthetic Equal Rights Movement with John going rogue to kill her. It's bluntly just thinly veiled propaganda intended to oppose current & ongoing real-world Civil Rights & Equality Movements. Real Proud Boy shit. Instead, you slowly reveal that John is the antagonist because he is the "unthinking machine" under orders to destroy the Synth Equality Rebellion as per his ONI orders & brainwashing (all feelings having died with Cortana) while the Cortana Derivative AI is a Anti-Imperialist Revolutionary type functioning like the Red Scare (the boogie man) in the background. H5G would be the same but much of the dialogue would need to be redone, because it's fucking terrible, but we avoid the H5 soft reboot following the terrible DBZ formula of "here's your even stronger villain".

[@AfroRyan]

@@Proctor_Conley To quote Norm Macdonald "No offense, but that sounds like it's some f*cking commie gobblty guk."

[@Proctor_Conley]

@@AfroRyan Come on, man. You know you're being rude & that what I wrote moths ago is the same Progressive Politics stuff Norm Macdonald was into. If you don't understand something ask questions or look it up, but don't bullshit me.

[@AfroRyan]

@@Proctor_Conley Hey now, to be fair, I said "no offense." Also, pretty sure Norm detested progressive politics. Otherwise he would have thrown Rosanne and Louis C.K. under the bus with the rest of Hollywood.

[@Proctor_Conley]

@@AfroRyan No offense, of course. We both know Norm always tried to support marginalized people, even his old friends Louis & Rosanne who he cared for, & you're intentionally misrepresenting the infamously Conservative Hollywood as Progressive. Write "no offense" all you'd like but it's clear you're just being Intellectual Dishonest to ignore my points & trying to not take responsibility for things you write. Multiple comedians we both enjoy would call you a pussy for that but especially Norm MacDonald.

[@ucheehQ]

I finally watched this video, and you bring up some interesting points about lore and canon. I love your insight and your ability to clearly verbalize it. As the video ended, a thought came up. Imagine you live in the world of C&C, except some hundreds of years after the events. Let's imagine that, at some point, the wars between GDI and Nod came to a mutually destructive climax, there were few survivors, and most information about the wars (digital logs, new broadcasts, etc.) were destroyed in some way. Basically, the only information you have, is word-of-mouth, through several generations, and nothing, especially certain dates and timelines, are exactly set in stone. In that way, it would make sense to not know exactly when tiberium came to Earth, when the wars happened, when Havoc went on his Nod-destroying spree. They're all either known facts or partially substantiated rumors, without a clear picture of when *exactly* they happened. Not only would it help explain inconsistencies, it would also explain Kane's apparent immortality: every good story needs a face, whether that face is for the good (he's the messiah!) or the evil (he's the head of a global terrorist organization!). As for the climax itself, nobody knows just what happened, so someone with a weird imagination, who had only heard snippets of the story here and there, just came up with whatever and there's your C&C4 storyline.

[@charlesballiet7074]

I want more lore keep up the good work Adept Strings

[@GunRunner106]

canon should be whats presented in the game not something a dev mentions as an off comment in some random livestream last week once or so, thats kinda dumb... ive seen the later be the case with some recent newer games and when ever i see that kind of stuff it just makes my eye roll - how is anyone supposed to keep up with stuff when lore is like dumped into the gutter with 1 time comments that are impossible to find once the stream implodes and vanishes, and then ya have like 5 ppl who insist thats a canon thing ... etc also oof dats a name..

[@bonbondurjdr6553]

Especially since they can handwave away story details in such livestreams...

[@Del_S]

At least we can be thankful C&C doesn't have one central figure who can just randomly tweet out gin-fuelled rubbish about wizards pooping in the corner....

[@StanislavKirichenko]

This is actually cool. Thanks for the essay. It doesn`t help to embrace that C&C is over in such a dishonorable way as C&C4 but at least the thoughts of the essay are actually interesting.

[@GunRunner106]

ive seen your timeline vid in the past, that said i always saw the games take place in like roughly... 1940~1950: red alert 1980~2000s: tibdawn 2030+ : tibsun 2050ish: tibwars cnc2 1990~2010sish in its own timeline at that point generals also in its own timeline around the same dateish kinda iraq/golf wars times or well kinda after 9/11... was kinda fitting in there with how that game was themed and all i think ya dated it about the same more or less, but that kinda seems to be just making sense to me with how the first few games had been set up back then....

[@sniperking4696]

I like the way you break down the lore

[@hannahb6249]

Totally agree with relying more on in-game and especially cutscene lore over anything said outside of it (manuals, dev statements/intentions, etc). A big issue if you ever wanted to redo C&C though is that 4 still does exist... While from a KZbin lore perspective it could be easy to ignore but I feel that if you wanted to actually follow up on the series as a developer or just writing a story set in the same universe; you would need to do something to either dismiss or acknowledge the existence of that game. I don't know, that's what bugs me the most about C&C4 the fact that it not only killed the series but sort of makes it that much harder to actually revive.

[@NoStringsPrd]

Good points, you would have to address it from an official standpoint. If I were to write for EA a new C&C game I'd just say it's set in a different continuity, this new game is set after KW in a different timeline, like the 'bad ending' timelines in TD and TS where Nod won, the series already has a history of splitting the timelines. That way the company can save a little face and the fans get what they want. > I don't know, that's what bugs me the most about C&C4 the fact that it not only killed the series but sort of makes it that much harder to actually revive. Great way to word it, this is why C&C4 is one of the most egregious 'bad entries' in any series I've come across

[@GrayFoxHound9]

Lore is something i like and the more i like it the more lore friendly it is.

[@reddeadsmeg4379]

I appreciate members of the community trying to connect the lore from within the lore, but they need to include real world events, like changing development teams, as to why things don't make sense. By accepting that some connections can't be made because of real world events, you can create an opportunity to 'fill in the gap' according to your interpretation.

[@RenInABoxARPs]

Logo go spin... spin.... spin... spin...

[@SkyFly19853]

As long as EA keeps C&C as its IP... Nothing will change or improve... 😞😞😞😞

[@videocrowsnest5251]

Question - What do you make of the fact in the Tib Sun manual it's mentioned that meteor storms (full of Tiberium infused meteors) seem to have a knack for bombarding areas already infested with Tiberium? This is one of those odd topics I haven't seen anyone touch on regarding Tiberian Sun/Firestorm. There are a lot of strange "weather" occurrences that seem keenly linked to Tiberium, and the presence of Tiberium fields. Even to the point of some of these weather phenomena being tied to space based objects. While some of the things Tiberium seems to do to weather in particular can be tied to it's terraforming of a planet having an impact on global climate, it seems to also cause this sort of anomalous things to occur if present. Additionally, it stands to reason that if there are suddenly storms of Tiberium meteors bombing earth (mysteriously absent during Tiberium Wars, so perhaps it was either for only a period of time, or GDI built a "meteor defense grid" of some sort to fend them off with its expanding space based systems), other planets in the solar system, as well as a lot of moons, would also be infected with Tiberium via these meteors being drawn by gravity to hit them, though obviously, taking a far longer time for the infection to grow due to the absence of carbon based life to help spread it. What do you make of all of this? I think it's one of those fun speculator topics that can get poked at from a lot of different angles. For example - Are the meteors Scrin sent, or just the original Tiber meteors "offspring" as it came close enough to other asteroids turned meteors to share its Tiberium infection with them as it sailed towards Earth?

[@pandaprewmaster325]

Dude when your new video of lore is coming out? Last lore vid is 3 months ago or something like that

[@NoStringsPrd]

The next two lore videos I have planned are massive projects. The one I'm working on right now requires me to upscale all the RA2 and YR FMVs to a more appropriate resolution, so I've been working on that for the last month or two. That's been taking all my edit time, which is why I've pivoted to doing more streams while I work on it. Sorry for taking so long, but I always feel like I shouldn't half-arse these videos if I can do better

[@pandaprewmaster325]

@@NoStringsPrd no problem as long as it's high quality content

[@RhizometricReality]

Great video

[@BBBHuey]

I recently had an idea concerning Red Alert: Retaliation. Would it be possible that the Allies gameplay could work if the Soviets won? If the Soviet ending is the supposed lead-up to Tiberium Wars, would the Allies gameplay in Retaliation somehow fix the "Soviets/Nod ruling Europe" dilemma? When you play the game, there is a mission where you fight to stop unmanned Super Tanks. It would be interesting if these tanks were early prototypes of a.i. Possibly early versions of CABAL.

[@TheWhiteTrashPanda]

I was hoping this would give me my fix of C+C lore, but all it did was whet my appetite. MOAR PLZ!

[@jothewerewolf]

Hey, I had a hard time keeping up with this video. I can usually follow your videos pretty well, even those without any visual aids, but this one I had to rewind and rewatch a couple of times before I could grasp what was being talked of. Maybe because it's a complex topic, or because it doesn't have a clear separation of chapters, or because I haven't slept well lately. May or may not be useful information, but I thought giving you the feedback might be good. Great video otherwise on a really interesting topic.

[@triplehelix3207]

imo, the best way to continue the series would be to remaster Tiberium Wars but make a new expansion with the forgotten to take the story in a new proper direction. The only real problem i have with this is i don't know of Joe Kucan would come back for this.

[@GrayFoxHound9]

I think complete remake of tib sun could be fine as well. Story in the base game, while has a lot of good ideas, falls flat on the execution of most of it due to enormous tone shift and huge dissonance between the gameplay and story. In gameplay it is a ravaged by tiberium earth that becomes progressively worse with imaginary realism in every single unit sprite and line, in story it is a funny mad-max styled in visuals sci-fi with small scale events, evil cult, aliens and all possible sci-fi tropes. Tib down story is much better and closer to tib sun gameplay feel on every single aspect from writing to presentation. Nod campaign and firestorm dlc are fine though. Only GDI got the short stick

[@triplehelix3207]

​@@GrayFoxHound9 i can't imagine redoing all the FMVs

[@maurolorenzotongco5521]

I miss your long game essays XD

[@sw0rdf1sh2326]

I like your methodology for choosing sources of the lore, but I lean towards the start of the First Tiberium War being closer to the late '90s/early 2000s because in addition to the game's manual, the overall level of military technology (apart from the more sci-fi tech) is closer to then. Much of the GDI equipment, like the M113 APC and M60 Patton tank, would have been relatively old even then but still common enough in NATO arsenals at that time. More importantly, the political and economic systems of the countries in both theatres-especially in Central/Eastern Europe-of the main conflict would be too consolidated to be the types of battlefields they were in the game by 2019, whereas closer to the year 2000 they would have still been consolidating and feeling things out the absence of the Soviet Union like they were in real life.

[@EvGamerBETA]

Canon mostly matters to establish continuity. Canonical facts would affect future installment, non canonical - dont. For that reason it's ok to cut CnC4, as nothing would be based on it

[@Tailix]

That's the warzone 2100 legacy sound track in the background, isn't it? I think track 24 lol

[@YGSFox]

Is there a particular reason for not listing the video? I actually quite agree with said things, but I would even go one step further. IF the developers switch and even some ingame lore is contradictive, I actually prefer to piece together one coherent narrative, that may diverge from either source (at least in the case of the Tib-Time of C&C since it's quite a mess in some parts anyway), to get one fleshed out, meaningful and especially canonically sound story in the end. I'd even go as far as to include for example bits of some fan-made things like the "Forgotten" mod for Tib-Wars, since it's unlikely that we will get anything meaningful from EA in the future in the first place. Anyway, I really love the content you make (I discovered your channel a few days ago while playing through the whole Tiberium-Series again). I'd love to see either a detailled essay, critique or retrospective of the whole series (you know, those 2-5h things like from "Neverknowsbest" and others xP) or a complete and definitiv summary of all events regarding the Tiberium-Saga from start (Cain slays Abel) to the End (the TRUE Kanes Wrath ending, not the abomination called C&C4), maybe also a 2 hour piece. I love those long vids to watch while working xP Anyway, great job on the material so far, keep up the good work! Also: Could it be, that you're actually german?^^

[@NoStringsPrd]

Ah, this video was visible under playlists wasn't it? Gah I'm dumb. The reason why it's not public is because it was just supposed to be visible early for the Patreon supporters, it'll go live on Saturday. You'll notice the video description and closed captions aren't ready just yet. My bad > or a complete and definitiv summary of all events regarding the Tiberium-Saga from start (Cain slays Abel) to the End (the TRUE Kanes Wrath ending, not the abomination called C&C4) So I've been chipping away at a script for something a little like this for a while, including RA and Gen in the mix as well. Only problem of course is as a script increases in length linearly, the time required to make the video increases exponentially. Definitely something I'd like to do, but I'm already on the slow end for regular uploads, doing my best to strike a balance. Cheers, glad you enjoyed it! (Hah I'm not German, but you're far from the first person to ask that! Is it the name? XD)

[@YGSFox]

@@NoStringsPrd ah, that explains it^^ I already thought that the viewer count was quite off. Anyway, I'm glad to hear that you're basically working on something like that. I for my part would really enjoy that :D And yes, the way you pronounce your name at the end of your videos led me to believe you were german :D

[@lynxfirenze4994]

It's an interesting question frankly, how you pick apart the little details of the games and so on and resolve the contradictions etc. I'm inclined to agree with a perspective of taking what happens "On screen" as the highest standard and using that as a starting point to build from because ultimately the games are the universal touchpoint. With things like the Marked of Kane not healing in Tiberium fields (And for another franchise: That the Tranquil always had the brands on their foreheads which was supported by codex entries but not models in DAO because engine limitations) or certain units having weapons in their design or in cutscenes that they don't have in actual gameplay being the easiest to excuse as simply gameplay intruding on narrative or as engine limitations. Really though when it comes to a major franchise: "Canon" is very often just what the fans can broadly agree to be the canon. Hence things like C&C 4 being imo rightly memory-holed. It won't ever happen most likely but I'd love a C&C revival that took the ending of Kane's Wrath and went from there, perhaps have whatever Kane/Legion did with the Tacitus reactivate Threshold 19 with the campaigns being GDI trying to do what their name suggests and protect Earth against the Scrin and against whatever nonsense Nod pulled this time, Nod trying to further their goals of "Ascension" by fighting the Scrin to establish control on the other side of Threshold 19 etc, and the Scrin forced to launch their planned invasion of Earth early whilst also dealing with counter-invasions from Nod and GDI. Could also have other Threshold towers successfully constructed or some sort of vaguely defined "Scrin Wormhole Tech" to explain battles taking place all over rather than being focused on Threshold 19 (Thus escaping the question of why GDI aren't just using their Ion Cannon network to vaporise everything in the entire Mediterranean Red Zone without requiring them to have no Ion Cannons since yeah they could but there's too many smaller fires burning elsewhere to focus their entire Ion Cannon network on one place, especially since the tower itself is immune, thus requiring a promising young commander (AKA the player) to eventually launch an assault via the wormholes on Ichor Hub to either a) Defeat the Scrin Overlord or b) Just disconnect Earth from their network/destroy Threshold 19 and save the day at least until the sequel).

[@3dmaster205]

Interesting notion about the dates of Tiberian Dawn; the thing is; it could be both dates. GDI campaign around 2002. Nod campaign around 2019. This fits neatly with Renegade occurring mostly in Africa, it occurred in 2019 during the Nod campaign; this also fits with Killian Qatar saying in her opening FMV in Tiberian Wars that Nod showed GDI's treachery in 2019. At the end of the Nod campaign you take control of a GDI Ion cannon that was until that time secret and blew up some of the Western nations landmarks; showing off GDI had an illegal weapon. It also fits with Nod being stationed in Africa in TS; but not completely controlled it; Nod campaign was successful but Havok's efforts weakened Nod's hold over Africa. The question then remains, was Kane in the Nod campaign a clone (and what happened to it)? Or a holographic projection? Seems unlikely; but Kane is not half-machine like he is in TS. Or was Kane just not there in the 2019 Africa campaign; that some other high ranking Nod commander/colonel takes Kane's place.

[@awsomebot1]

Retcon some Halo fans still haven't recovered from: Non-human Forerunners. Iyky. It ultimately doesn't matter though because Forerunners were mishandled very badly since 343i took over, regardless whether they're human or not. At least C&C's big trainwreck ended after a single game.

[@derharlekin5205]

I think what also plays a role for source-priority is, what does the individual want from the game/story/worldbuilding? While Tib Wars is a good and fun game, I ->personally

[@AntonSlavik]

I have an ironclad standard that no serious fan of the C&C universe can argue with or deny in good faith - we sit down Joseph D. Kucan and ask him. Everything he says, goes.

[@Halcyon_games]

Ya know what, i'll take that happily.

[@magma1lord]

The devs opinions on the lore or what the game represents. Its the same as the harry potter books and Rowlings adding idiotic minor lore via twitter depending on what is most vocal and popular among theories in the fanbase. or changing written canon.

[@squishymusic9723]

Nice

[@MPKb19]

Comment for statistics

[@SirArtanis7]

When you think about it, it is appropriate to void c&c 4 entirely. Star Wars episode 7 is proof of this. While a majority were willing to give the trilogy a chance, it quickly fell to peaces with 8. Logical inconsistencies is reason enough to remove something from lore but, if the fanbase as a whole says no to it then you'll get what Disney's response was and a quiet decanonization is the fate at the end!

[@kasrkin100]

How about tiberian incursion, yuri turn out kane creation, Like you version of the C&C4 if you play Nod Commander add as plot twist we play as Yuri as the Nod Commander just like Solomon did in tiberian dawn.

[@blackops9operation75]

O.O

[@coolmemedude9212]

wow

[@shadowguy321]

C&C 4 was abysmal from a story perspective and I can excuse a lot of crap!!! It would be like if Avengers Infinity War didn't have Thanos and just ended with Iron Man taking on a random company, like...why?! Honestly, I actually feel bad for the developers. From what it sounds like, they were working in garbage conditions and had to produce a finished game in a few months...months? What game takes months to do well? It's no surprise, and I'm just sad at this point. For the folks who were forced to put their name on C&C 4, to the people that watched their hard work in C&C 3 get flushed down the toilet because of co-orporate greed. My personal headcanon: I consider the ending of the Tiberium Story to be the epilogue campaign of Tiberium Crisis and I see C&C 4 as a sort of...post war final conflict after the crazy events that occurred in that mod. It's almost a little sad the only way I can "mentally accept" C&C 4 as canon is with a mod that was done with limited resources, no actors, and to be honest an only somewhat compelling story. Still, had fun with it, and when I beat it, I really felt like I had defeated an invasion, plus I liked the nod to RA2 in the mod. So yea, that's just me. Edit: the only issue I take with the 2019 start date is because that means the war ends in 2022...so 8 years later Tiberium has seriously mutated the planet, and technology has exploded forward? I suppose tiberium could mutate and spread exponentially rather than linearly, which based on the level of contamination in 2019 would be believable. It's just that technological leapfrog that I have issues with, along with the idea that the Second Tiberium War only lasted 1 maybe 1.5 years. It somewhat pulls from the idea of a massive scale war. Gameplay wise, I suppose it tracks because I always found Tib War 1 and Tib War 3 to seem the most brutal, bloody, and holding the most casualties. The 2nd tiberium war just seemed quick even from a gameplay perspective but just 1-1.5 years seems fast. Then again, we're currently in a modern day war and things are happening quick so I suppose a futuristic one would be fast, too

[@cbtenthusiast7133]

lets say you and a group of Friends are randomly contacted by EA with no stings attached and with non of the scummy tactics and they have become infamous for (unrealistic i know but still fun thought exercise) you are offered to wright the story for a new command and conger game the catch is you cant retcon tiberiun twilight and have to consider it when righting the new entry if you take them up on the offer how would you fix/expand the timeline while staying faithful to what came before basically how would you fix the series and give it the ending it deserves.

[@KingLich451]

yay

[@Toldoris]

I don't recognise c&c4 as canon because it is SHIT! In lore and in gameplay!

[@Halcyon_games]

C&C 4? I thought the last in the story was Kanes Wrath and then the RA remaster

[@gmradio2436]

There was one good piece of lore from the leadup to Tib 4. In the lead up there was a unit profile for the new orca and it included an excerpt from interrogated Nod soldiers. Turns out that Nod HATES orcas. To paraphrase, "When GDI gets truly mad, they send orcas after you, Not tanks, not walkers, orcas."

[@GrayFoxHound9]

True thing Nod soldier says. Tiberian sun was basically orca spam the moment i see any artillery unit.

[@yetanotherrandomviewer]

Lore in a series can be a mess when it has gone though different owners and gone though different people working on it.

[@AlicijaFilmGeek]

"You'll end up talking past eachother". Is that a snide comment about that time we were both misinterpreting what each other was saying because you were looking for a standard to judge something on and I was adamantly saying "art is a lie, nothing is real, everything is subjective"?

[@NoStringsPrd]

XD No no no this isn't about that conversation at all, I still enjoyed that talk

[@SkyFly19853]

C&C 4 was NOT a cannon as well as Ra3 was NOT...