The Evolution of Moshing Explained

[@fernandoorozco3751]

The simplest answer is: moshing is Fight Club. It's something we used to do at punk shows 2 Express our angst at the world. It was a rite of passage when you realized that getting punched in the face ain't really that big of a deal. Sometimes little vendettas will pop up between a couple people in the pit, but almost always after it's all over you got your arm around your guy you were just sparring with drinking a beer. Back in the early 80s in Southern California we called It "slam dancing. "

[@mercedesmarxist69]

exactly, it is about fighting for ur place in this fucked up world not about intentionally hurting.

[@anonymousbosch9265]

It felt like something to endure and earn a small feeling of glory in our small subculture and almost a right of passage that’s missing from our western society. We have long lasting memories from then amongst my friends in our mid forties

[@uniquelyme7662]

I’m autistic. I can’t dance. moshing and pogoing is the ultimate stimming for me. I love the energy of moshing to punk/hardcore. it’s just perfect for when I need to stim as an autistic

[@jag-stang29]

literally dude. also with how open and accepting local hardcore scenes are nobody gaf if you suck at dancing either which is great

[@viscountrainbows2857]

I'm suspecting I have autism. No diagnosis official but, I know. I can dance normal but the freedom of punk and metal shows is a WHOLE different pacc. Hell I like to incorporate mosh moves even when I dance to normal songs cos, it's like slipping someone a little extra bud in their bag when they thought they were just getting a dime, ya feel?

[@chipbagley4744]

The pit is a culture of acceptance, show everyone what you got!!!! I have 2 sons that are autistic and my 9 year old loves moshing!!!!

[@apinkdslite1833]

if you’re moshing, you’re dancing!

[@xangrycatmanx5104]

This is the best video essay on moshing I've ever seen. Most of the coverage I've seen about moshing mostly covers Metal and the more mainstream scenes, but not underground punk/hc. And the 7A7P shirt helps 😂

[@HubCityMan]

Agreed!

[@truthhurts79]

Moshing comes from punk period

[@xangrycatmanx5104]

​@@truthhurts79 amen to that

[@AsbestosLynn]

Not only an insanely good video about moshing history and styles but this is honestly one of the best documentaries on Hardcore and Metal music and culture I’ve seen in a while.

[@BradYaeger]

I'm 58 and lucky enough to have been there since the beginning . It's great to see young kids doing their thing and having fun with it .

[@lovemycamry]

I ONLY MOSH TO LIBERATE

[@GreyJ47]

ifykyk 🤫

[@gnarlywagner8171]

Okay pal

[@lovemycamry]

@IamSonJLE THE BAND LIBERATE

[@lovemycamry]

@@gnarlywagner8171 AINT YOUR PAL

[@TylerHodelin]

they are so damn freaky

[@HabeasJ]

As someone with many undiagnosed concussions from moshing, I really enjoyed this video

[@abick8725]

Lmao. Now…that was funny…

[@MizzKenzi]

The 7A7P shirt convinced me to stick around. Friggin love 'em (and the very first Misery Signals EP)🤘 I also didn't believe you were from NY until 22:44. "Mota-head" 😁 Fucking great video. So happy I stumbled on this. Cheers!

[@the_real_tay_loud2072]

“Nobody would dare try that karate shit in my scene” Instantly gets crowd killed back to the D & D table😂

[@wendiplays]

I was crowdkilling during the 2000-2010 era and no one ever tried shit loooool.

[@ppaulisdeadd5879]

the limb-flailing is, in fact, gay

[@lordcrowlay]

no one is scared of you cosplaying a helicopter 💀

[@boogie5]

that is a staple of hXc.. the donkey kong overhand "pound".... and we ALWAYS did it to literally EVERYONE that was right on the edge of the pit! ...fuggin tw4ts! 😝

[@ppaulisdeadd5879]

@@boogie5 “fuggin tw4ts” very cool insult 10/10

[@ceevishus4130]

In this tiktok age, hardcore has been attracting a lot of attention, and as history has shown, this could be and will end badly. Back in the 80s/90s the scene got saturated with a bunch weekend tourist looking get wild and crazy and start going to shows not understanding the scene and start either hurting people intentionally with no love for the music or the scene. Then there are those people who are not built for the scene and get hurt causing venues to ban moshing and bands that hardcore. Also the worse part is people coming into scene and misrepresenting it, hardcore IS punk, hardcore is not metal, hardcore is not booty shaking music, hardcore is not pop culture, it is opposite of pop culture. all of the trend tourist will be gone soon and the scene will go back into the underground thankfully.

[@mmmacnches]

Japanese Hardcore Mosh Style 2 mentioned!!! Helll yeeea

[@boogie5]

7 Angels 7 Plagues... I was old enough to be there for all of that! 😁

[@the_real_tay_loud2072]

@@boogie5 we out here

[@misticformula1485]

Awesome documentary! I’m an old black dude who got introduced to hardcore culture from skating in L.A. in the 80s and 90s. Cool to see how hip hop culture intertwined with hardcore culture as I’m also a hip hop bboy dancer and I play guitar. Never moshed but always found it fascinating!

[@CheapSushi]

Bro, fantastic video and sick 7A7P shirt! This was so well done and covered a whole lot really authentically with a lot of nuance. You really were thorough as much as you could. Even your observations about the subtle differences in moshing especially later in the video around metalcore & deathcore and even the pushback is just spot on. Even the psych part was 100. This was DVD release docu level worthy.

[@EnriqueMendoza-nt4se]

Always remember when you're caught in the mosh, you are a family. So pick up your fellow brother and sister. GREAT VIDEO BROTHER! PEACE AND LOVE Y'ALL!

[@rustyshackleford735]

A lot of d bags would stand around the pit and push and punch people in the pit, like they wanted to get violent, but they didnt want to get in the pit and risk their own safty and thats why crowd killing become prevalent and it was often directed toward the d bags that were pushing/punching from around the pit. At least that what i saw.

[@GreyJ47]

@@rustyshackleford735 Wow that’s really insightful and makes a lot of sense. Even at shows today if you get too close to the side of the pit, people will just hit you for no reason. Crazy that crowdkilling was just a reaction to those d bags

[@ShortalayPlays]

Wait, you don’t have shows where you slingshot into each other by being pushed by the people on the outskirts of the pit?

[@BandoTaco]

@@ShortalayPlays i think pushing on the edges is fine, that keeps the pit contained & moving. swinging on people in there without being in there yourself is the pussy move.

[@ShortalayPlays]

@@BandoTaco Totally agree, I misunderstood the initial comment, apologies.

[@the_real_tay_loud2072]

@@GreyJ47also it’s different when you and your friends just bein ignorant and hittin each other😂 but I think people be crying about it on the internet since the ole B9B😂

[@particlejim]

Bucking is an underrated pit move, just plant your hands on the edge of the stage and bucking bronco kick backwards, even better if you do like a cartwheel buck and get some spin on it, I'm also a big fan of cartwheels in the pit 😂

[@shoeshane6494]

I hope you're joking

[@particlejim]

@@shoeshane6494 no

[@ChargerBullet]

I remember back in the early 90s my sister told me about a time she went to see some Punk and Hardcore bands and took our cousins who managed to bum a ride from some older Mexican guys. Older Mexican guy with a cowboy hat got so wasted and started dancing like Elvis in the middle of the pit. The skins and punks were so mad but couldn't manage to knock him down because he was fairly larger than the teenaged kids. That was one time I was glad I had no money to go see some live bands.

[@shoeshane6494]

@ChargerBullet ...sounds like he was the most punk dude at the show.

[@Carnifex-ze8dp]

never forgetting the fact harms way blocked me on ig for saying the rust album tour poster looked like blunt wraps lol

[@viscountrainbows2857]

Reality AppROACHes Yeah I'll see myself out

[@111Moose]

Wow… that’s mad lame of them. By the way, I googled it and you’re totally right. Lol

[@yellowsaurus4895]

Lmao did they really? That's so weird, i wonder why. I live in Salt Lake so the straightedge culture is super strong but even still I can't imagine why anyone would react like that lol. I mean they even moved the Pain of Truth show to the local AA hall just so it could be all ages, and those guys definitely aint sober lol

[@norryb]

that’s funny as hell lmao

[@B166ER-]

I was lucky to be part of the NY metal and hardcore scene when the most intense form of dancing was only seen on the east coast. It was brutal, and the moment I first came across I instantly understood it without anything having to be said.

[@FredCool-q2n]

You must have seen bad brains alot.

[@FredCool-q2n]

You must be a fan of bad brains

[@blackcat86900]

NYHC W

[@albertfernandez4460]

Punkrock and Moshing saved my life and youth😊

[@misanthropist3]

You misspelled ruined

[@misanthropist3]

You misspelled ruined

[@jacobm742]

Man I clicked on the vid looking for a 2 min video and saw the length and thought "damn, I'm not gonna watch all of this". Anyway, just finished. Great job man, really fascinating and actually learned some shit. Makes me want to come out of mosh retirement. Keep it up!

[@richardlionberger69]

Absolutely incredible! The most well documented history of dance and hardcore music that I've seen since the Decline of Western Civilization up to date. Well done! As a fifty five year old metal drummer, I'm very familiar with this time in history. I'm amazed at the work you put in to do this. The resources, the footage, your ability to stay true to the facts and convey the spirit of each decade and genre was as I said, "absolutely incredible". Keep up the enthusiasm and hard work. Thank you. \m/ Nemadrummer

[@blobbything2986]

I consider moshing to be a testament to the goodwill of the average person. Everyone in there are friends, someone falls or isn't having a good time, people are immediately rushing to help them out

[@nine5661]

Ayyyyy, FIRE 7A7P shirt!!!

[@searchforpurpose]

nice 7A7P shirt

[@Gregbaltzer]

I grew up in the early 80s on Priest, Dio, Venom, Mercyful Fate , and Maiden before getting into thrash and hardcore around 85. I remember by the early 90s I was completely bored of thrash. I remember hearing White Zombie and thinking how fresh they sounded. People bitch about metal being dead in the 90s, but I have nothing but great memories of Metal and Hardcore in the 90s. There was so much more variety of heavy music. I was super into Fear Factory, Sick of it All, Obituary, Slayer, Agnostic Front, Madball, Biohazard, Malhavoc, Cathedral, Motorhead, Sepultura, Biohazard, Danzig, Rollins Band, Bad Brains, Machinehead, Carcass, Entombed, Godflesh, Gwar. There was so much great stuff! I still listen to all those 90s bands. And the 90s album productions were perfect. Now-a-days everything is sterile and overproduced and over synced.

[@cycologist7069]

Dont forget amazing punk bands of the 90s like Leatherface or Jawbreaker.

[@lanapearce9968]

Being there through the 80's as metal evolved from Priest, Saxon and Maiden at the start of the 80's through Thrash to the Death Metal and Grindcore and more Industrial Metal into the 90's was amazing. Great times!🤘

[@PomPomPurin_BreachForums]

man, what a great video, I really loved it and the way you present it is simply amazing, great great work done here

[@nickroest236]

Great video, keep going man imma be keeping an eye on this channel🙌🤘 much love

[@steveg8102]

Im an old punk rocker....we called it skanking or slam dancing. Moshing is for metalheads

[@ChargerBullet]

Exactly. Unfortunately, the metalheads were able to rewrite history through their mainstream status by MTV and the music industry. Even the word 'thrash' was used synonymously with Hardcore bands in the early 80s. I have the zines from that era but since it isn't on Wikipedia people will continue with the falsehoods. I seen some stupid show on television years ago where the singer from Twisted Sister said he invented stage diving.

[@smoothedges24]

Great video! Around @45:28, I recall a chat with Jorge Rosado from Merauder in 2017 about the origins of hardcore dancing. He mentioned that he and others began doing it in the early '90s in New York. They were inspired by martial arts and wanted to dance just as fiercely as the big guys who were push moshing, but also to keep them at a distance.

[@stigma3343]

80s NY had the creepy crawly style

[@viscountrainbows2857]

Videos like this are why I love youtube. Crustbag, Coolea, and Punk Rock MBA among a few other channels, make me feel seen. You're going on that list. From Boston, with Love 👊🏿✨ also holy algorithm, Batman; I hope this gets you some subs. You got mine already.

[@rickross5512]

I'm from Sacramento, California. My mother used to slam dance and talk about it a lot LOL. That was the first time I ever heard of this and all the way into my teens called it slam dancing cuz of my mom. Late '70s into the '80s.

[@prod.slitface]

I’m 15 and still slam and hardcore dance in the sacramento scene today haha

[@lukasharding7953]

Great insightful history of how moshing has made the live shows so much better!

[@derekarmstrong1408]

As far as names for the hardcore moves, that old video from Sick of it All pretty much covers it. I was in DC, and saw all of the popular NYHC bands multiple times betweeen 1985-1989. It was definitely a sudden and distinct change at those shows from the non stop circle dancing and stage diving that came before. The crossover shows had a mix of both, with longhairs continuing the stomp in circles thing while the bald hardcore kids would start gorilla punching and doing windmills in an effort to declare the pit as "hardcore" property. Honestly, it was pretty lame, everyone was there to see these amazing bands and my friends turned it into an opportunity to bully people they deemed "grits".

[@timmackenzie8145]

Yeah those are the types that ruined it for everybody

[@javi__...]

Ian mackaye and henry rollins tell the story when he first saw slam dancing/moshing. at a circle jerks show in norcal between the Huntington beach punks and it totally blew their minds and freaked them out.

[@SeanReyesGirdle.]

There was slam dancing, there wasn't this 'mosh' bs.

[@packrxnner]

1:00:48 oddly enough, Tyler and odd future signed trash talk, a hardcore band that even collabs with producers for rappers lmao. Mac miller, suge knight, and katt Williams (however you may feel about any of those people) use to go to their shows lmao

[@petermgruhn]

I've got to figure : If Malcolm McLaren said Sid invented the pogo (he did) then he didn't. Anyway, I only kept watching to see if you'd mention slam dancing. You did. So, props.

[@johneapleseed6876]

Also I credit Parris with the rise of slamming in hip hop. As he’s the crossover element in these arts through film This doc was off the chain. Thanx yo

[@D00M3R-SK8]

We were also doing pile on's, and pile on mic grabs. So a pile on mic grab is when the singer gets on a speaker (or just holds the mic above their head) and holds the mic out, and basically bodies just pile up, with people running up the pile to get the mic. We also would do human pyramids, which I have no idea where it came from, but it was a thing :D Our style was probably a lot closer to NYC, just without all the windmilling. When you did see windmilling, it was usually combo'd with a side strafing 2 step. This is actually a pretty technical move to pull off. PS: some of the crazier scenes would have speaker divers, too. which is essentially just stage diving, but from the top of a speak stack. These guys would usually do back flips and stuff. The most crazy straight edge guys, usually BMX'ers or Skaters. EDIT: I see you covered this, so I didn't really need to make a comment about it. Lol.

[@chilliam00]

Fr the craziest moshers are the ones who don't drink/smoke/do do drugs, they're just high on music and passion!

[@D00M3R-SK8]

@@chilliam00 yeah, 100%. pain released endorphins have a huge part to play in this. People from the BMX and Skating scenes were usually the most hardcore.

[@apinkdslite1833]

main character syndrome is becoming an increasing problem at shows i feel. more and more people filming themselves moshing and crowdsurfing/stagediving is definitely obnoxious.

[@metalheadgamer80]

Fun fact: The LA Doom Metal band Saint Vitus were the very first metal band to have people moshing at their shows. In the late 70s/early 80s, they actually didn’t get much love from rockers and metalheads for being “too slow”. At the time, bands like Judas Priest were starting to play faster and what not so the earlier Sabbath-y metal sound was already being seen as going “out of style”. Because of the reception, Vitus started playing at punk shows. Besides heavy metal, they too had a love for punk so they saw this as a good opportunity to potentially gain more fans. To no surprise, the punks also hated them but as they kept playing shows, punks actually started to appreciate them more. So much so that they even got attention from Black Flag and others. According to guitarist Dave Chandler, the pits were just like the ones in Decline I, not the circle pits you mostly see nowadays. So yes, Saint Vitus were one of the first metal bands to successfully cross over to punk.

[@213davidhunter]

Vitus were signed to Greg Ginns record label.

[@TrevorTatro918]

Saw peeling flesh at flyover fest in Tulsa last week for the first time. Several ambulances during their set and three for Torture’s. I have never seen such violence at a show lol. The styles of moshing were different all weekend and it was dope to see so many dives during Prevention. This was such a good ass documentary and I loved seeing your boys last laugh on here. They’re sick as hell.

[@xmetalcoreguyx]

i like ur shirt bro

[@brianhickman8165]

This young man REALLY hit it on the head (no pun intended)! This is the most intricate explanation of the history of moshing. There were parts that really brought me back! Thank you so much for this! ps- nice 7 Angels 7 Plagues shirt!

[@doclabad9493]

Fucking killer video man, keep em coming. There needs to be more videos documenting the scene. Shit hit me inspired. Keep up the good work. Also I believe the FD Signifier video that talks about gatekeeping is in the video that breaks down the Kendrick vs drake beef.

[@sundance270]

Early 2000's hxc I would see and even participate in the "wheelbarreling" (I'm assuming thats what is referenced here) which for us meant a guy grabbing your legs from a push up style position and you'd throw yourself up and start swinging usually as the one holding your legs would help lift and spin around. That move I haven't seen in many years. There's also a forward facing variant where youre picked up from under the arms and do a bicycle style kick. Not sure what bucking could be referencing. Maybe where a kid would leap almost like a forward handspring but catching himself on the floor with his hands and kicking backwards with both feet high up but landing back into a standing position. I still see this today. This can be done on the floor or sometimes the stage for more height. Axehandling sounds like exactly what it is where your arms are swinging both in the same motion like splitting wood with an axe but going from one side to the other. Or think rowing a boat from on side but arms fully extended. I'll stand corrected if anyone else knows what this referencing, just some moves we would do back in the day. Can't believe I'm writing about stuff from 20 years ago. Makes a man feel old. Loving this doc btw, great work!

[@sixty2612]

I can imagine the wheelbarrowing, though I don’t think I’ve seen that done before. I’ve seen people picked up by the waist and kicking, and people being put on shoulders and spun around though. You might be right about “bucking” too, I see that a lot still, I would’ve called it a donkey kick though. Usually done with hands on the stage.

[@ChargerBullet]

Is this a joke?

[@ed.m04]

I've been going to shown in the puget sound area of WA (seattle, olympia, bellingham, etc) for the past two years and the frat boy energy is INSANE with any band that is even slightly popular in the scene. I was at a seattle house show last winter where there were at least 3 stage divers a SONG. I literally left because I was so sick of getting kicked in the head by people who weren't even looking where they were jumping

[@sockfullofsoup3165]

same area dude, and i gotta agree the moshing is crazy especially hardcore dancing north west a definitely a good place to experience all that

[@rustyshackleford735]

I was 13yo when i got into the boston hardcore scene and it was very rough in the pit, but people would pick you up, i dont think the pigpile was that common, i only sawpeople get that rough with boneheads.

[@sixthwizard2744]

Good video man. Should be the history of the slam. Everyone called it slam in the 70s. “Moshing” term i never heard until the 80s personally when metal became speed and thrash

[@THATGOATMETALSHOW]

By far one of the better docs I've seen about moshing great video

[@jamiefonte7238]

Great video brother. As a member of the old school scene, you nailed the timeliness and influences. I've moshed to live Slayer shows, as well as Beasties and P. E.

[@kenlen8029]

Absolute classic thumbnail. Pretty sure I participated in a Photoshop battle using said picture lmao. Forgot it existed.

[@Drew_Tries]

The most unique moshing I've ever seen was in NC about 1996 or so.. it was a bunch of punks at a hardcore show and two of the bigger punk dudes both grabbed each other by the collars of their leather studded jackets and would slam their chest into each other all whilst doing a circle together....

[@thetruemusichead]

Wow bro, you are creating some really amazing content jeeze

[@henrybemis3439]

When I started going to punk shows in L.A. and Hollywood in the late 80's, it was still known as slamdancing. Moshing was seen as a metal thing. Just my personal experience.

[@sixthwizard2744]

Exactly.

[@Crash.7434]

I’d actually say that’s backwards. I always labeled metal as “slam dancing” and punk “moshing” which no matter what it’s the same thing. I don’t like the new moshing though. No fun it and makes you look and feel retarded(in my personal experience)

[@ChargerBullet]

The term 'moshing' came from metalheads who copied slam dancing from Hardcore Punks. They were able to rewrite history because they were given a microphone through their mainstream status from the MTV and music industry. There are videos of early Slayer concert footage where the crowd is just headbanging and pumping their fists in the air. Even the term 'thrash' was taken from Hardcore Punk. It was used interchangeably for Hardcore in the early 80s zines I have. It isn't on Wikipedia, though, so people will continue the falsehoods. They even took 'Death Metal' from the earlier Punk adjacent 'Death Rock'. Not surprised that they continue to use 'New Wave of British Heavy Metal' after taking the name of that genre, 'New Wave', either.

[@Crash.7434]

@@ChargerBullet thought moshing term came from bad brains? Either way idc where it came from it’s fun.

[@ceevishus4130]

i am so impressed with this video. I've been into hardcore since the late 80s and its hard to impress me but this video was so accurate. you really did your homework

[@scaredtodeathh]

shit my pants when i saw the 7 angels 7 plagues shirt

[@robertmckinnon7003]

Before Thrash, Metal kids were called "Headbangers". And head banging was how you expressed your enthusiasm for the music.

[@emesisfragrance]

this just popped up on my feed randomly, then i was like hey i know this guy !! i've booked two liberate shows now lolz cant wait 4 the next one yr band is so sick.,, it was only a matter of time until a youtube video essay got made about moshing and i'm happy&relieved it was made by a real one B) dope video i love moshing i love long island hardcore ! !! ! !! !

[@GreyJ47]

Thank you so much for the feedback 🫡 I’m glad I could go through the history to moshing and especially show love to our scene. You’re a real one who books some bangers

[@idrathernot8459]

Great video dude.

[@katoffeevhs9798]

really cool to see all this stuff summed up in a video. as a lifelong hardcore fan i've seen all these trends come and go, and now it's a free for all :)

[@vohhi3995]

Been apart of going to concerts since i was 17 years old. I myself continue to be straight edge. And I can say coming from a family of addicts metal saved my life.

[@bailey3209]

Moshing is so cathartic for me, get me 3-4 pints down me and get some loud angry sounding music, getting in the out just helps me come out and feel like a weight has been lifted. It can also be really just like weirdly heart warming, moshing and singing with random people is just awesome and I'm talking mainly about push style pits, when i get into a more hardcore put, its a completely style but still gives me the same feelings, yeah i may get smashed in the face or whatever but im still getting up in the stage, singing alot and having fun, its still cathartic to me

[@hotmixAC]

Hey bud. I really dig what you’ve done here. You nailed this video.

[@patrickweston4131]

Awesome clip my B. Churr!

[@ceevishus4130]

bro, you hit every angle of how moshing began, all the way down to HR's Jamaican accent giving "moshing" its name. Hunnington Beach Strut and all. I usually come on here and add to or dismiss what has been said, but you were on point this entire video. Thank You.

[@TheGameGrinder]

Dude this doc is legit as hell. Nice work man! I've been and still very active in the metal scene (primarily death metal) for 25 years or so and seeing some of the evolution and crossover of scenes and styles was always really interesting. As stated, moshing/slamdancing/whatever is about having fun and sharing this raw energy, not hurting people, and entirely why I absolutely despise the crowdkilling bs. Also glad you mentioned "normies" because I see it happen all time - can tell when folks who aren't generally involved in these scenes come out and act out. The main character syndrome term is new to me but now you mention it, spot on - I have been seeing that stuff too.

[@isaacupton9188]

7 ANGLES 7 PLAGUES SHIRT WOAH GOATED FIT

[@tobiassmith-z4f]

Love what you're doing. As an old man who grew up in the 80"s scene in Buffalo. Straight edge, definitely, influenced our scene. I was really glad for that because most of those kids were skins and virulently anti racist. Thank progress that Nazis didn't get to steal our look here like they did elsewhere like they tried with that frog. Workers together will build a better world.

[@D00M3R-SK8]

I can totally see the link between breaking, and some hardcore dancing. 2-stepping especially is very similar to some top-rock styles. I was into the Hip Hop scene before the Hardcore scene, and was a Graff writer and DJ. I dabbled in a little bit of breaking, too, so this lent to my style of moshing a lot.

[@MelTheMuppetslayer]

Started in the pit as a teen in the late 90s. Always said it’s my therapy. Fantastic video. Will suggest it to people I know.

[@HimothyBurton]

Phenomenal video my friend. Love what you have done here.

[@rossauce12]

Glad you added the gate keepimg bit, and the hey 5 six thing

[@workethicrecords5901]

Cool to see this pop into my feed, great video. The FD bit was pretty funny. Subbed

[@celinedistortion3451]

Kid...that was a super thoughtful and wildly accurate video. Bravo. Well done.

[@StarlightEater]

This was so comprehensive, you're the fuckin man! Welcome to the algorithm! Don't fuck it up, n stay frosty bro!

[@mrconfusion87]

Both a dance and an extreme sport! 😎🤘🍻

[@hclyrics]

Crowdkilling started as simply messing with friends and other moshers on the edge of the pit. At big enough shows, you could almost guarantee anyone on the edge of the pit participated in moshing and could easily take it. But in many scenes, a lot of newcomers and people who didn't want to mosh got turned off because there weren't enough moshers to create what was essentially a natural protective barrier. You ended up getting a lot of frat boy tough guys thinking it was cool to hurt bystanders and scare people away from the community. As for crews, I think it's important to note that nazis weren't the only target. Many crews formed to keep drug dealers from selling to young kids at shows. Because of this, straight edge eventually attracted militant types, which gave it a bad name in the public eye, even long after the macho bros broke edge and left the scene. All that being said, I'm super happy to see hardcore communities thriving again. This is an excellent documentary on the subject, possibly the best hardcore doc I've seen. Thanks for all the effort it must have taken to put this together! I have no doubt this will be a fundamental piece of the hardcore archive years from now.

[@rustyshackleford735]

There was a lot of fan crossover btween hardcore and hiphop in boston on the nineties as well.

[@GreyJ47]

@@rustyshackleford735 For sure! The whole north east were as much hardcore kids as they were hip hop heads. You could definitely see the influence

[@the_real_tay_loud2072]

@@GreyJ47that was my life growing up in New England😂 it wasn’t looked at as cool as it is now back in the day not just listening to both genres but people hated on bands like E Town, Candiria, downset etc. because they were ignorant and just associated rap with nu metal😂

[@EmanuelSabinonamasteskater]

This was a pretty badass explanation bro

[@MayGuh]

HOLY SHIT 1:06 I WAS AT THAT SHOW!!!! SHOUT OUT MASSAPEQUA SHOUT OUT INCLINATION!!

[@GreyJ47]

@@MayGuh You’re a real one! My band opened that show but that was easily one of the best gigs this year, the energy was different

[@shoeshane6494]

Dudes all spread out, doing spinning kick and throwing punches? That's a crap excuse for a pit, in my opinion.

[@tjcaruthers5593]

Your research was very extensive and correct. I've been a metal head since birth and was in high school in the early 90s, so I did my share of moshing. I lived and still do in Reno, NV and what happens in California makes it here much quicker now versus the 80s-90s. The way we moshed was in a circle(circle pit) and we would do the skank thing and would throw elbows. Our elbows targets would be the biceps and triceps of our fellow moshers. Two rules were if someone falls pick them up and always cover your face. We had problems with skinheads and they were the only bullies. If there was a few of them we could flush them out and in fact they would get along with everybody in the crowd. Then they would target people with long hair as more of them showed up. The metalheads and punks got along well at shows. Both scenes would go to shows of the others genres because we are a smaller town. We showed support for all local bands. Even the straight edge kids got along with us metalheads. We started seeing some of the hardcore dancing I would say maybe 93 but definitely 94. It wasn't big here. We called it karate and frowned upon it. Those two rules became three with no throwing fists or kicks in the pit. Eventually after I graduated high school in 95 we started seeing more kids do the Kung Foo fighting thing. As a result people started leaving the pit and considering it as a young persons game. My last turn in the pit was when I got to see Slayer at the age of 22 or 23. Now as a 47 year old man I still think the karate moves look ridiculous, but still find a circle pit a beautiful thing. Like a hurricane. The last two shows I went to which were Cannibal Corpse in 2021 and Morbid Angel in 2023 I was right up front and the pit was a few rows back. If there was crowd killing I was unaware of it. I will say though the kids now are so very polite. A couple times a kid would bump into me as I was head banging along with Corpsegrinder and would get a sorry sir making me feel even older. Very respectful and politeness being displayed in the middle of a Death Metal show, who would of thought of that happening?

[@mrconfusion87]

Interesting to see death metal become what it is today, considering death metal had very notoriously violent mosh pits back in the 1990s!

[@tjcaruthers5593]

@@mrconfusion87 It's just evolution. Slayer was known to have the most violent pits in the 80s early 90s. Now you see young kids at Slayer or Testament or Exodus gigs. The pits now don't seem as violent either. Not saying what is going on at hardcore shows have softened, metalcore seems like it has though. Death metal pits definetly. In the early 90s death metal was still kinda new and really seemed to be the most extreme thing in music. Its violent music and violent lyrics. We weren't killing and raping virgins and nuns but took it as seriously as one could without landing themselves in jail or the nut house. That's probably why pits were so much more violent then. It was just heavy fast and extreme. My perspective is a bad one to consider since I haven't been in a pit since 1998 or 1999. The kids seem to still enjoy it. There have been a few times that got bad that I heard about. The one that comes to mind is the dude who went in with a couple of razor knives and started fucking people up at a Deicide and Broken Hope show in I think Texas or New Mexico. This happened back in 2015 or 2016.

[@b.e.n._official]

SHOUT OUT TO FD SIGNIFIER

[@GreyJ47]

The goat of this video essay game 🙌🏼

[@steveslater6591]

Holy Shit Dude, you are saying soooo much information my head exploded, i need to watch this 20 times to get all of it. and i went to most of those shows that you are talking about, awesome documentary.

[@splatterbrained]

In my entire 30’s I only moshed like 3 times. Seeing old heads 10-20 years older than me throwing down always makes me feel a way.

[@diydylana3151]

Thank you for actually covering its punk/hc roots unlike most of the others!

[@slvbphotography]

Would've never expected this guy to know anything about xHCx. But holy shit!. Wayy more than I knew myself. Bravo my friend✊🏼

[@jrmac666]

One of my favorite friends in my city's metal scene is a single mother in her mid-40s, who is ALWAYS in the pit. We don't go to a ton of hc shows (our city leans way more into extreme metal), but she got a crazy black eye and a likely concussion in a hc pit a few months ago. Her response? She now wears a wrestling helmet to larger shows with more hc-leaning bills. An absolute scene legend. I personally no longer mosh - I'm only 22 but am def entering an early pit retirement after tearing some ligaments in my knee at a small festival during a Wolves in the Throne Room set over this summer. Still recovering from that. Be careful on uneven ground y'all, LOL

[@TupDigital]

43:10 I feel you I too got destroyed at a Dillinger show as a teen in the early 00s. Many brutal shows and pits . WE WERE LUCKY TO HAVE LIVED IT!

[@jaredowens5125]

Solid analysis 👌 93 baby here but I been fascinated with this culture since I could comprehend it. Good video

[@DC11GTR]

I’ve always been fascinated with this subject. I’m old enough and lucky enough to have seen pretty much all of the OG death metal bands in their earliest days and most of the hardcore bands from that era. I was too small to be in the pits but I would stage dive as much as I could and with my size, I’d be up for half to a full song in packed venues. I stopped doing it as I wanted to protect my hands for guitar but I never stopped watching them. Often more than the bands themselves. Especially on the East Coast. The Stillborn Fest in ‘04 is where I saw the most, and the best, pits. Playing in front of a few thousands kids and seeing complete chaos… There’s nothing like it. The craziest was on that same tour with Hatebreed at the Worcester Palladium. The most violent thing I ever seen. Our pits were sick at that show, but Hatebreed was miles beyond. It was genuinely frightening and amazing at the same time!

[@theincredibleiveys5920]

best video essay lol, you should do like a kinda mini one on stagediving

[@Mark-p1p5c]

These days most pits are weak, just pretty people bumping into each other. Good pits at hardcore shows.

[@playfairpunk]

This ruled dude good job

[@Gregbaltzer]

I love the Sick Of It All music video for Step Down where they demonstrate a bunch a styles of dancing. Growing up I loved the movie Lost Boys, but we would laugh our asses off at the scene of the punks slamming to Aerosmith. We used to joke that no one was as hard as the Aerosmith punks. I just finished reading Vinnie Stigma talks about how much he hates crowd killing. He said if anyone tried that in New York you'd get your ass kicked. I don't agree with crowd killing, but I also can't stand Deathcore, Emo, and Metalcore.

[@emoxvx]

Great video! And great 7A7P tee as well!

[@seth_1138]

the title fight clip goes hard

[@EmanuelSabinonamasteskater]

Always good to remind people of history and whatnot

[@blackcat86900]

NYHC. CBGB AND THE RITZ most of the ny hardcore shows WERE INSANE BACK IN THE LATE 80’s early 90’s. Cro mags , Agnostic Front, SOIA Crumbsuckers, Leeway too many from that era. absolutely brutal

[@Dr.Meth666]

Life of dreams by crumbsuckers was a fucking game changer for sure

[@kingfillins4117]

Not mid 70s. Mid seventies was pogoing. And Grappling. Pogo was jumping up and down. Grappling was two or so people gripping onto each others jackets and pulling back and forth at the person vigorously and aggressively. Moshing is moving around more stomping and slamming is rotating with arms like running like the DRI logo. Slamming is the DRI logo.

[@ChargerBullet]

Correct. And 'moshing' is just the term metalheads used after they copied it from the Hardcore Punks. But since they had the megaphone given to them by MTV and the music industry they were able to rewrite history. This guy is getting stuff from Wikipedia, where things aren't always correct. He says that moshing in metal was where the circle pit came from and differed from slam dancing. The circle pit was already being done before metalheads copied it all. Youth Brigade's song from the early 80s called "The Circle" describes it.