The Genius Mind of Ted Gioia

[@DavidPerellChannel]

Ted Gioia thinks our culture is stagnant. Algorithms have us addicted to distraction, Hollywood's out of creative ideas, and people don't read hard books like they used to. 16 lessons about writing and breaking free from dopamine culture: 1. Ted's golden rule for writing: "Always be honest." 2. Three questions to ask yourself when critiquing something: Is it fair? Is it accurate? Will this be persuasive to all fair-minded observers? 3. Struggling as a non-fiction writer? Become an expert in something first. 4. Read slowly. 5. Success won't always come quickly. Ted's career is just now taking off - 50 years after he started writing for publication. 6. People will judge you on your outputs, but you should focus on your inputs. For Ted, that means reading mind-expanding books and listening to music. He does both for 2 hours per day. Then, he writes. 7. What kind of books should you read? Ted says: "Read for mind-expansion, not entertainment, and seek out challenging books." 8. Wondering which book to read? Think of books like drugs and pick up the one that'll give you the greatest out-of-body experience. 9. Do you struggle with writer's block? Do this: (1) buy a blank journal that only you will see, (2) write about something that happened at the end of every day - but there's one rule... you have to be 100% honest, (3) do this every day for a month, and (4) sit back and read what you've written at the end of the month. You'll be surprised by how much good stuff you have. 10. Your high school English teacher was right about this one... write in the margins of your books. 11. After you finish a book, summarize it in your own words. Helps with retention. Think summaries are too time-consuming? If just spent 10 hours reading the book, devoting another hour to synthesizing it is a relatively good time investment. 10-to-1 ratio. 12. Why is our culture stagnant? Consumer brands are increasingly old standbys. Look at video games. Minecraft (launched in 2011), Call of Duty (2003), Grand Theft Auto (1997), Madden NFL (1988), and Super Mario Bros (1985). 13. How about another example? The comic book market driven by the same brand franchises that were dominant in the 60s and 70s. All of the top 20 bestsellers are from Marvel or DC Comics, which were founded in the 1930s. 14. Want a third? Hollywood sequels. They're everywhere now. Top Gun, Spider-Man, John Wick, Mission: Impossible. 15. Music is like cloud storage for societies. That's why the historians in traditional communities were usually singers. Music preserves culture and folklore. 16. Consume old stuff when you're young and new stuff when you're old. This is the opposite of what most people do. Ted is the most well-read person I've met in years. You name it. He's read the book or listened to the album. This guy knows the Western canon.

[@urthboundmisfit]

This is sort of a tangent, but Minecraft isn't a normal video game. It's a sandbox game, meaning you go in and basically create your experience. The rest of those games you have to follow a set pattern to travel from start to finish. There *is* an end game scenario in Minecraft but you could literally play it for years and never bother with that. It is not at all necessary. I typically play it on Peaceful Survival. No monsters and I don't have to worry abut accidentally breaking the wrong block and winding up in the Void.

[@Swordshreader]

@@urthboundmisfit This is correct. Minecraft is an artist's game without a doubt.

[@JorgeZaccaro]

OMG can’t believe you got Ted Gioia on the show! I’ve loved his books for years and what he’s doing on Substack now. One of my favorite writers alive, and definitely my favorite writing style. I dream to write like him someday and honor to the craft full-time.

[@JohnLumgair]

Yes!

[@Simplyveej]

We all know that Ted is an intellectual. But this interviewer is super bright, super well prepared. It is heartening to see someone from a younger generation being so old worldly erudite. I am thoroughly impressed. This young man is going places.

[@DavidPerellChannel]

The news is always breaking, our phones are constantly pinging, and social media feeds have no end. We're trapped in a Never-Ending Now. We think to ourselves: "Yesterday's news is old news, so focus on the present." But this is a dangerous idea. If you're not careful, you'll devote all your consumption time to present things while ignoring the wisdom of history and the marvels of civilization. Some highlights from the interview: • There's always a flavor of the month and a flavor of the week or the thing happening now. And if you try to build on that, it collapses because those things never survive. You must seek out the timeless. You must renew your mind on the timeless truths. That's why I spend a lot of time with these old books. They're my firm anchor. • I had a professor once who taught me Milton and Dante and medieval and renaissance literature. And he told me once, Ted, I don't read any book written after 1900 because it hasn't proven itself yet. The funny thing is, I was like that for a long time. Maybe I was like 1940 or 1950, but I had this idea that I didn't want to invest in a book until it had proven its benefits to generations of readers. • If something has given wisdom to generations of readers for hundreds of years, I should open myself to that experience.

[@davidpalmer5966]

A very, very good conversation - and kudos to both participants that it is a conversation and not just an interview. It goes to a lot of places and is guaranteed to make any intelligent person think and maybe even get inspired. Thank you!

[@DavidPerellChannel]

Thank you! Really fun to record this one

[@englishdogs]

Ted's Substack is fantastic.

[@DavidPerellChannel]

Yessir

[@souza_ltc]

Honestly, I think this is the best interview I have even seen. I'm even more impressed by Ted's knowledge and David's ability to make difficult topics translate into easy conversations. Thanks a lot!

[@PhilipFClark]

It is so rewarding to find an interviewer like David Perrell -- he deeply respects his subjects, and not only listens to them and provides such insightful questions -- he has obviously done his work researching their work. These interviews give so much back to us as writers and poets; unlike other hosts, he does not let ego get in the way of his interviews -- he lets us see his subjects with every personal perspective. He draws out the best from his questions, but also permits his subjects to give their all -- which we then become the grateful receivers of. Marvelous podcasts.

[@danaandthewolf]

Thank you both for this interview.

[@clementine5672]

I needed to hear this conversation! I teared up between 45:00-50:00. I’m a creative who’s been off of social media for almost five years figuring out who I am and what I’m about. I’ve been wondering if there are still places for people like me in the world and this inspired me beyond belief!

[@EddieLeeFunn]

I first learned of Ted from his first interview on Rick Beato's YT page and have received his newsletters since. Now, he was just on Beato's page for a second interview and now on David's page! Thinking independently is still a good thing!

[@sarah-kitwatts8555]

I rarely credit YT for its algorithm but it delivered your podcast into my life and I could NOT be happier. I’ve found my tribe and I’m enormously grateful. My only worry now is that I might not leave the house for the rest of the week because I’m wallowing in these interviews and blissed out that I’ve finally found my people. Sincerely, thank you David. 😅

[@clara.c.m.]

I didn't know about Ted's existence at all. What a remarkable human being, in every sense. And what a gift to receive his wisdom at this point in my writing career, just about to start, but with enough life experience to not buy into dopamine culture's view on writing. TY for bringing this gem of an interview to us. It's helped A LOT with the issues I'm currently struggling with. TY TY 🙏🏼

[@paulbartholomew3334]

Fantastic interview. Am a big fan of Ted; he’s the intellectual we sorely need in today’s culture.

[@JesussDavid]

I keep shouting out loud while watching this “this is my dude!!!” This is medicine for my heart. It’s like the battle seemed unwinnable and the zombified forces of the soul-suckers were poised to quash my once relentless optimism and Mr. Ted rides in on his horse and blasts my dismal projections of what’s possible with his wizard wand lolz but true. I don’t know if Vampire Weekend or I originated the word a-punk but man, Mr. Ted is like the writer’s equivalent to the spiritual fresh air that was Zwan’s Mary Star of the Sea.

[@PaulKwitekmusic]

Great Talk. I always enjoy listening to Ted.

[@StrategicStripping]

I'm not even 4 minutes in and oh my god, I'm so thankful to hear y'all talking about a more maximal style of writing. I love writing, and I can't stand cutting out so much because of how ADD friendly it feels like I need to make it...

[@WilkinsMichael]

Wow, I hadn’t heard of Ted but only 10% in and I’m hooked. Thank you David.

[@DavidPerellChannel]

Recommend a binge-read through his Substack

[@LivingInnocently]

Beautiful chat-full of rich insights into becoming an authentic writer who has depth and substance to offer. Key takeaways: 1. How the name of "honest broker" came about: a example of how seemingly weird incidents and experiences in life turn into nuggets. 2. Input (what and how much you read) matters to your output. 3. Brutally honest journaling is the way to regain touch with the true self. This also happens to be a rare podcast where the host doesn't directly tell you to like or subscribe--and you end up doing just that.

[@ronedes378]

I have been telling coworkers , and family and employee's that the more you learn - the valuable you will be at your job for decades . I started my own manufacturing company in 99 - 24 years later sold it for millions . I'm a high school drop out at 17 to join the Marines. Injured at 18 with a honorable medical discharge. No money , no job and no education. I spent my 20's & 30's constantly learning ( really my whole life ) This is how I was able to be successful at what did - I actually knew what I was doing , the customers & suppliers knew I was a creditable authority in the metallurgical & semi conductor industry .

[@andybaldman]

Are you trying to convince us, or yourself?

[@ronedes378]

@@andybaldman It's my testimony of advice I gave people for decades .I'm not trying to convince people anymore. I lead by example , and would try to help people enjoy a working life more -by getting ahead . I don't bother trying to help people any longer. What do you mean by " us " ?

[@andybaldman]

@@ronedes378 Whoever you were thinking of when you felt motivated to type it.

[@iLoveWriting365]

Ted is a genius - watching now!

[@FREEAGAIN432]

Inspiring conversation. Thanks so much David for curating and Ted for sharing so much wisdom on the many different facets of this conversation. Ted becoming a mystic..sounds about right..hahaha. Lots of wisdom from this man.

[@joaocalladomusico]

Very good! My grandfather was a writer (an important one) and a journalist, and he spent much more time reading than writing.

[@TedNemeth]

“There’s a danger I might get mystical at some point.” LOVED THIS ENTIRE INTERVIEW.

[@riccardocecco]

I didn't know Ted before this episode... What an interesting guy! One of my favourite episodes. As always, thanks David. Your hosting is always the best. Keep it up 💪

[@JohnLumgair]

Checkout his substack, you won't regret it

[@ShaynAlmeida]

This was great! Love Ted’s substack, and this interview was awesome, incredibly insightful. Thank you 🙏🏽

[@Raindreamful]

This is fantastic. I have never felt more like a slacker than I do now. Thank you for the time and thought you put into this.

[@martinstark8394]

I am writing the second draft of my first book. The book now has a completely different direction with an alternate universe of impossible possible conversations. My maternal grandparents once lived on the same street as Margaret Thatcher. I have written a scene with Auntie Maggie dropping by for afternoon tea.

[@Grili561]

When I hear a nice thick Wisconsin accent, that makes my day as well, Ted! Good talk 👍🏻

[@johnwesonga5802]

I've followed this interview for the third time now! Thanks David.

[@zrienkersh1475]

Love his substack. The State of Culture 2024 was so good. I’m still thinking about consuming “Distraction.”

[@JohnPatrickWeiss]

This was excellent. I too hope we see more maximalism and honesty. I’m sick of the clickbait, shallow piffle, and lack of depth in so much of the online and even publishing world. Now I’ve got to go check out Ted’s The Honest Broker Substack.

[@upper9052]

I was thinking this man was going to talk about writing a podcast, my mistake, new here. That being said, very interesting episode and full of interesting tidbits. You have a new subscriber.

[@ransbarger]

Love Ted!

[@MatthewDLilley]

Love Ted Gioia. Great interview! Well done.

[@leoneldelarosa814]

I think the 1800 thing Ted mentioned has an answer: The Immanuel Kant to Friedrich Hegel transition in Philosophy. Everything from Socialism to Romanticism to even The several movements in Painting can be traced to this moment in German philosophy, and its re-reading of the classics.

[@leadgenjay]

Spot on.

[@markothwriter]

So much of what he says about the music and entertainment industry aligns with Rick Beato.... then I find out that they know each other.

[@treflatface]

Reminds me of what Jason Zweig said, There are three ways to earn money as a writer. 1. lie to people who want to be lied to and you'll get rich. 2. tell the truth to those who want the truth and you'll make a living. 3. tell the truth to those who want to be lied to and you'll go broke. There is huge difference between knowing what's right and making a living, delivering what you know to be right. This may be the most common in investing, in law, or even in medicine when "do nothing" is the best answer a lot of the time. But "do something" is the career incentive for you to do. Sometimes your willingness as an expert to take an action is not moral.

[@duncanweller1]

The "formula" works because it's a reflection of human nature. And it takes imagination to play with the formula. You just need to know what the formula really is in the first place and then how to work with it - how to hide it, dress it up, stretch it or condense it or use it multiple times in the same story. You won't tire of the formula if the artist using it is talented. Sadly, talent is underrated. And the truly talented intuitively understand that human nature is the palette from which to dip your brush. And the artist understands that human nature is far more complicated than people are willing to admit. But will give you lots to paint with.

[@DarkSideofSynth]

The fact that 'enterprises' gave up what is their nature (taking risks in doing something hard, that's what the term enterprise is all about) says it all. Where's the fun and pride in copy & paste? It's all about formulas, algorithms, safe bets, dumbification, lowering the bar, killing the mind & soul. No free thinkers, no one standing out, conformity, follow the rules, the guidelines, the steps, and you'll be fine. What's that thing that is built to behave like that? Machines, not humans ;)

[@scratchpiano]

why is there a robotic-sounding voice at 1:38:18 that says "A.I." in response to Ted's question? I find it weird and unnerving 😅

[@PhilipFClark]

Fascinating opinions on 'minimalist'/maximilist' writing. But we do have current wonderful maximilist writers! Donna Tartt is the best example; I would also add Claire Messud, and Anthony Doerr, and Richard Powers. Our problem with fiction today I believe, is a repetitiveness in subject matter -- we have too few writers such as the ones mentioned here -- whose works match some of the best of a new 'American Canon'. Do we have a Melville or Proust writing today, however? I would say no, but perhaps we will at some point. I think it will only come at a time when we leave the world of algorithms's quick, choppy -- and mindless! -- predetermined off ramps from what truly has made American Literature, and other great literatures the proof of the hard but rewarding work of reading: rich language, compelling character and plots, and an immensity of imagination. Though I disagree with Gioia on some points of perspective, I am an avid follower of his writing and talks. He is so needed in this time of literary declension. And, he has a great sense of humor--something also sorely needed today.

[@audreytremblay3255]

At 1:38:17, Ted says "my writing is not bringing enough money to pay the bills", and we hear a female robotic voice says "AI". What's this? Do you know that David?

[@jgharding2]

My guess would be maybe an AI noise reduction tool was used, or something similar, and that this is some kind of watermark that’s accidentally been left in?

[@X9523-z3v]

Where is joy, creativity, an exploration of environment, grounding when there's irrational hands that hold our strings at every turn in society. You want culture? Respect the culture. You want people to buy into society. Give them a society worth buying into

[@justanaverageguytoday]

Progress is not new technology, progress is flourishing human beings. Age of reason is not nearly as important as romanticism for the betterment of society. Not algorithms and code. And profits. We are at this same point today

[@Mooseman327]

The culture is dead because the Spirit which is what enlivens culture, has been denied for too long. We need a global understanding that the spiritual world exists and that we need to keep connected to it. Matter without spirit is a corpse. And now A.I enters the picture to cut out ANY connection to the spirit by cutting out the being that connects these two worlds, the human being.

[@typingarchetypes]

Precisely

[@freethinker79]

100% agree! Excellent comment.

[@derekgregg9009]

@@typingarchetypeshow can you say precisely in response to a pseudoscience waffling

[@i_dont_know_who_i_am69]

​@@derekgregg9009it's mostly waffling but the AI part seems true enough based on what I've seen

[@als5790]

Drunk Australians have all the answers tbh lol. But also love this guy he’s great. My theory on being told to simplify language when it’s nothing extravagant but just not written for a 5 year old is that if you talk to ppl like they are stupid, they will be stupid and collectively this is bad

[@robo3456]

Please have Ryan holiday or Robert Greene on

[@Soccolich]

Both are already scheduled. Stay tuned :-)

[@DavidPerellChannel]

They're both coming on this summer

[@robo3456]

@@DavidPerellChannel thanks, excited for that

[@robo3456]

@@DavidPerellChannel if you could ask them about structure, that'd be amazing

[@paulsinob]

This is brilliant and every word is gold. But Ted, more than 1 in 1,000 of your readers know the "dogmatic slumber" quote surely!? It makes me sad you take these kind of references out.

[@andybaldman]

Culture is stagnant. And that’s exactly how it’s supposed to be.

[@ChristopherRyanPhD]

Great conversation, full of interesting insights. But Ted's understanding of evolution and what "fitness" means is about as far off as you can get. Also, worth noting that Hemingway's succinct style is due to his having been a journalist for years.

[@TheCompositeKing]

Dan Schneider of Cosmoetica is a true maximalist writer. He has a 9,000 page novel about organised crime in 1960s New York which is the richest and most fascinating set of character studies ever written. It's Moby Dick on steroids. His books have never been published. I will say though David Foster Wallace, while he does have long convoluted sentences, doesn't actually have any substance to his work. It's mostly cliches, gimmicks and juvenile humour. I think comparing Infinite Jest to Moby Dick is just absurd, except if the only thing you care about is big words and long sentences.

[@sultanalshirah]

First

[@griffinsdad9820]

Interesting and a bit troubling. He says he was hired to help businesses set up shop in china and my working poor blue collar ass here's he helped companies off shore manufacturing etc. Then, midway he mentions Soros and my heart dropped a bit more. I'll finish this but idk. ...

[@als5790]

I mean he worked for McKinsey so you should assume the absolute worst that part of his career, but I don’t think this can be held against him, it was a time. Plus I don’t think it can change the value of his views

[@careyrowland]

Selah

[@WilkinsMichael]

Don’t agree about Disney. Their lack of hit movies is mostly trying to subvert formulas just to do it and it isn’t working. Subverting is good if it is clever, earned and well done. Subverting just to subvert is dumb.

[@themark462]

Most of the culture generated today is not very good.

[@andybaldman]

“World expert in jazz”? Sorry, that’s not a thing.

[@als5790]

Tbh there are awards to support this lol I don’t think they reach the mainstream is all

[@als5790]

Agree it my be somewhat subjective tho I guess

[@rolandwyss]

Terrible noise gate

[@DavidPerellChannel]

What do you mean by that? Want to fix for future episodes!

[@rolandwyss]

​​@@DavidPerellChannelthe first and last few milliseconds of each statement are cut off. Sounds very unnatural to me, like a strong noise gate. Dead silence between audio signals is perfect for lead vocals over music, but sounds a bit odd in a normal talking situation. Maybe i'm too sensitive. BTW the discussion is of course brillant.

[@SouthLondonCyclist]

@@rolandwyss I hear what you mean but maybe wouldn't have said 'terrible'! The recording/room is a little too dead.

[@ChristopherRyanPhD]

@@rolandwyss I assumed that was imprecise editing, but maybe you're right. Whatever caused it, I noticed it too, and thought, "What was edited out there? Seems like a continuous sentence."

[@jgharding2]

It’s usually some kind of AI based denoising when it does this cutting off