The God Emperor Has Changed A LOT In The Horus Heresy, So Let's Talk About His Lore

[@ArchYouTube]

In other news! Games Workshop Admits Warhammer + SUCKS! kzbin.info/www/bejne/p3Sxo4Kcqa1pmsk and promises to fix it with LESS animations and more "how to spray paint black" KZbin videos

[@76dg15]

Damn right warhammer+ sucks, also some more Ukraine updates would be very welcome

[@TchHry]

You know the sad bit... EVERYTHING HERE is a great point... and 9/10th of the Warhammer enthusiasts won't listen because they're bigots against Norwegian's.

[@jacobhederstrom8198]

just to be sure, was it from dune they "borrowed" the title

[@drakeevans3066]

So on that note how would you rewrite the Hersey books.

[@physetermacrocephalus2209]

Fuck GW Arch. You wouldn't be spending the money on them necessarily. Consider that your spending it on US. I for one want to see and hear everything you have to say

[@jakefrost7404]

*_"So basically, the entire Horus Heresy has been reduced to 'Karen took the kids.'"_* _~ 1d4chan, "Erda" article_

[@renynx8515]

"In the Grim Darkness of the 41st Millennium, not even the Emperor of Mankind is safe from the horrors of Child Custody." ~ 1d4chan, "Erda" article

[@alexandarvoncarsteinzarovi3723]

...........................I NEED A DRINK AND NEW BRAIN

[@BouncingTribbles]

I can make this make sense. The original lore was that the primarchs were stolen by the chaos gods and scattered across the galaxy. GW has added an angry housewife. Housewife steals primarchs and scatters them across the galaxy. She seems willfully ignorant of the consequences of her action. Fixed: she was the unwitting agent of the chaos gods

[@kharnthebetrayer1575]

@@BouncingTribbles original lore there were no primarchs . Horus was just a general , and most space Marines were actually clones.

[@jakefrost7404]

@@kharnthebetrayer1575 Rogue Trader... now THOSE were the days...

[@ninochaosdrache3189]

After hearing all of this, I imagine Khorne turns around to the other Gods and just says in disappointment:" You know what guys, I think he isn't worth it.". And then they just leave.

[@friktogurg9242]

I hate liking lore, star wars also had a similar thing with karen traviss and troy denning

[@Unknown.NotRegistered]

The problems can be summed up as Historical Revisionism. I'm just going to consider this entire series as a work of fiction within the fiction of the franchise.

[@jacobcaster]

BattleTech fixed their cartoon series by making it in universe propaganda.

[@reyhernandez1958]

That's such a perfect escape mechanism that's part of the lore. It's definitely one of the things I love about the franchise. I'm just getting into this now and the lore is so awesome. This modern storytelling is garbage.

[@cousinzeke4888]

The HH series is the Inquisitions timeline. They're trying to piece together what the fuck happened and this is what they've come up with. It's close, I'm sure they got plenty right, and I'm sure they fucked up just as much. Which is which? Who knows...

[@VallornDeathblade]

@@cousinzeke4888 I don't think that works. The minute anyone even suggested The Emperor's name might have been Neoth the whole project would have been scrubbed, with bolter fire, and flamethrowers, and maybe munitions from orbit.

[@cousinzeke4888]

@@VallornDeathblade I didn't say these weren't radicals going beyond their mandate and doing things they shouldn't. Besides, you think the inquisition doesn't get up to the highest of heresies when no one's looking?

[@Warrior-Of-Virtue]

When the "It was all a dream." trope becomes an improvement, you have truly reached new depths. And yes, at this point that might be the only way to salvage this mess.

[@dwavenminer]

Do what Battletech did for a retcon: 'It was all just made up propaganda...which no one believed and just became a joke' If GW were compitent they could just say that all the stuff they've been spouting recently is just Chaos propagandanustic lies to try and corrupt the Imperianum....

[@Copeman9999]

@@dwavenminer what retcon was that? I'm getting into battletech, this seems interesting

[@dwavenminer]

@@Copeman9999 The entirety of: "BattleTech: The Animated Series" TV show "The animated series as such is not considered Canon for the BattleTech universe. Instead, the show canonically exists in-universe as a work of fiction: It has been referred to in-universe as a "popular but poorly reviewed holovid series"" -Sarna (Battletech wiki)

[@davfree9732]

Better yet, declare the anti emperor books chaos propaganda and declare them to have been written by ‘ I am Apharius, this is a lie.’

[@alpharius2omegaboogaloo384]

@@davfree9732 ALPHARIUS THAT BASTARD!

[@BigBroTejano]

What has been done to the God-Emperor is a prime example of why you shouldn’t let someone who openly hates a character write the backstory of said character...

[@berndberndsen5680]

I wish Big E was written by someone with half as much of a raging boner for him as Sylvanas 'morally grey genocide' Windrunner

[@elysiankentarchy1531]

Imagine the Emperor written by someone with as much love for him that Matt Ward has for the Ultramarines.

[@dickthehead1145]

@@elysiankentarchy1531 that would be absolutely awful, so you just want the Emperor to be bs perfect op?

[@covahredro8370]

@@dickthehead1145 Matt Ward's version would still be far superior to this garbage.

[@stormdragon7500]

@Dick the Head To be fair that’s basically who the Emperor is

[@robbomegavlkafenryka6158]

“Erda, I am going to raise our sons to become the greatest kings humanity has ever known. With equal parts benevolence and authority to truly lead humanity into the golden age, will you help me?” -Big E “I’d rather they all died.” -Erda

[@Matihood1]

Regarding Emperor's name, I remember reading an alternate heresy fanfiction where an event from the Emperor's name was shown and Big E introduced himself as... Revelation. Like in The Last Church. But the thing is, Revelation was the literal meaning of his name. Just like, say, the name Matthew means "a gift from God" in Hebrew. And I personally think that would've been a much better explanation than just giving Emperor a completely random name.

[@Warrior-Of-Virtue]

A great way to handle it would have been to make him literally nameless. As in he's been using aliases for so long that he's forgotten his real name.

[@Matihood1]

@@Warrior-Of-Virtue Forgotten? Meh, that would be bullshit. The primarchs are said to have an absolute memory and be literally incapable of forgetting stuff. Big E forgetting his real name would make him look dumb.

[@Warrior-Of-Virtue]

@@Matihood1 I see your point. I pictured it as a "Holy crap!" moment. How many eons would you have to go never hearing your name to forget it?

[@KT-pv3kl]

The emperor has no name as a precaution. The shamans that formed the emperor were well aware that names have power and knowledge of one's true name can give you power over them. Since the Emperors purpose is to ward humanity from the warp and all of its evils its perfectly logical to not have a name. Moreover it makes even more sense as he is not a singular being but an amalgam of souls.

[@Benthesniperof8]

@@Matihood1 the thing is though, we haven't seen what happens to a primarch that was active and conscious, without demonic taint; for a time span longer than 6 centuries max. That's not even 1 millennia. The emperor had been alive for like 50 millennia. Who's to say, that a primarch that lived fully active for even just 10 millennia; would not eventually find themselves forgetting something as simple as a single word? Now extrapolate the idea of the emperor having basically lived countless millions of alias lives; who's to say that even a being as potent as the emperor, may have burried his own name so deeply that even he himself can no longer recollect the memory to his conscious mind? I mean think about it, imagine having eidetic memory of every life you've ever lived, for over 50,000 years. Surely at some point, you have to deep storage some memories? Even for a mind as potent as big E. Just look at necrons that went mad in semi functioning status pods during their big sleep; deep storaged memories still exist inside them; but they can't be accessed because of the overlayed levels of data/memories that compress them down. I personally think Warrior of Virtues first reply was a pretty plausible, and great way to dodge giving the emperor a name, ad infinitum.

[@HubiKoshi]

Seriously with Angron the Emperor could have just looked at the Warhound commander, tell him "Hop to it" and watch as Warhounds dropped to the planet, massacred their Primarch's enemies and then offered their service to him in cleansing this shitty ball of dust. "Did you like my gift, son?" He'd ask afterwards.

[@Mystyx-Sama]

This! To this day I STILL have no idea why he didn't just do that. I imagine Angron wouldn't have been as, well, angry with everything if Emps had helped him in his hour of need, instead of quite literally kidnapping him and leaving what little family Angron had to their "fate". Almost makes the Emperor seem like he did that to Angron on purpose, which it seems so TBH. Why? I got theories, but generally no idea.

[@HubiKoshi]

@@Mystyx-Sama I did hear a theory that Emperor knew that half of the Primarchs will betray him. So he manipulated the situation to have the ones least valuable to him fall.

[@jamesespinosa690]

This is why my pet theory is that the Butchers Nails are some kind of anti psyker weapon that occluded the Emperors psychic vision to a degree. Angron was about to die (if I remember correctly), so the Emperor didn't have time to act in a more conventional manner and was forced by circumstance to teleport his son out of there at the last moment. Rather than landing and securing his sons loyalty through a show of force towards the slavers. This theory gives a reason as to why the Emperor never gives us or Angron a satisfactory explanation. The Emperor couldn't/wouldn't reveal the true nature of the Nails for fear of them being used against him in the future.

[@eichler721]

On the other side you could just have a short story and show the Emperor seeing inside Angron broken from when he met him and his future no matter what so chose what he did to help finish his Great Crusade and then put Angron to rest.

[@lucasbeck1391]

@@jamesespinosa690 there was enough time for angron to watch the battle be lost so that can't be the issue as astartes would have won much faster

[@Azachiel]

Personally, my headcanon is that Amar Astarte at most gave the Emperor the idea for the Astartes when he was grieving the loss of his sons and not yet sure what his next steps should be now that the cornerstones of his plans for the future had suddenly disappeared on him, and so in gratitude for this inspiration he named the project after her. Her invaluable contribution was essentially giving the Emperor the idea for the Astartes, nothing else. As for Erda, she never existed. She's Chaos-propaganda invented specifically to diminish the Emperor and also take the blame off Chaos. After all, the one who meets with 'Erda' is Erebus of all people, anything from his mouth or perspective must be considered to be bold-faced lies until proven otherwise. The whole mishmash of personalities I attribute to Chaos intentionally muddying the waters until nobody could figure out what's true and what was lies spread to taint the legacy of mankind. After all, who really remembers what happened? At most a handful of people, and even then they're not going to share their knowledge. Those on the Loyal side have to realize that at this point the best possible outcome is that they won't be believed, at worst they'll cause a civil war in the Imperium. And anyone on Chaos' side is unreliable to the point that even if they think they're telling the truth, their memories may have been altered without their knowledge. As for the Emperor's name, I'm outright ignoring that nonsense, and going back to the hint that his name could be translated into Revelation. And in that vein, the most interesting possibility is the Greek version: Apocalypsis.

[@Benthesniperof8]

How to hurt your soul specifically 101: NEOTH. Also Respec Wahman Erda Queenslay. I apologize for my heresy, I'll see myself out now.

[@baleriontheblackdread6679]

you do realize it never claimed that she was necessary for the plan beyond being capable of implementing his genius plans she claims he needed her, but that's a questionable source and honestly, I think people misread him encouraging normal humans to greatness for him needing their help

[@electricangel4488]

Or you know she is the girl that made the consept of geneseed. Or just his project manager. Important sure but not some god tier biologist Just your qvarwgr newton ;)

[@Headhunter1234256]

@@electricangel4488 she could be the first person beyond the emperor to understand how to create an astarties and she passed that knowledge on because emperor was too busy, hunting for eldar booty.

[@Itisoverthere-rw]

Here's a problem though. Apocalypsis in Greek is female (η Αποκάλυψις, or Αποκάλυψη in modern Greek). The Emperor wouldn't be called a female name. Perhaps Apocalyptis (Αποκαλυπτής), the one who reveals would work quite well and it would fit him.

[@Blue_Jasmin]

"She will come back at some point". Yeah, I can see. Erda walks into the palace, unplug the Golden Throne and says something like "let him rest". She proceeds to sit on the throne and declares herself Mother of the Imperium. You heard here first.

[@PhthaloGreenskin]

Aw dude. The sad thing is I could totally see that happening...if it does I'll probably stick with my Custom Craftworld Eldar army Veruei Toer wich means super straight in sindarin and thier colors are Orange and black. If there's gonna be a feminist Imperium of man I'd rather have any of the xenos win.

[@frankburnstein1195]

Then Vulkan's failsafe activates

[@michelveilleux2075]

Can see Russ and Corax strangling that woman.

[@thewildcardperson]

@@frankburnstein1195 emperors peace granted for all of us thank you

[@theamericancaesar4848]

If that happens I'm permanently joining the greater good

[@catsareevil101]

Before the Heresy series started we had a God Emperor with superhuman achievements and heroism, with blind spots and flaws to match. I seem to recall Dumbledore making a comment to that effect decades after Big E came along. Now we have an idiot immortal who seems to have screwed up for the sake of it, getting by because he had the right minions. And the setting is the poorer for it.

[@MerlosTheMad]

The cultural sabotage is in full swing.

[@KT-pv3kl]

The best part is that they took away his responsibility for the biggest failure of his great plan and offloaded it onto a woman... So progressive! Such wow! Much writing!

[@UnsoberIdiot]

@@KT-pv3kl tbh that's realistic

[@baleriontheblackdread6679]

Sorry, but you are reading into it what you want to read and not what's there if you look at it its pretty clear that he never actually needed them for their knowledge, but even the emperor can only work on one thing at a time and he needed basically geniuses around him that can work the stuff he is to busy to work on and even then its made quite clear that he encourages them to strife for new heights for gods sake did you all ignore the part where he said i am no god he isnt at least at that point so why are you all acting like he had to be alone or without help

[@yuvalgabay1023]

@@KT-pv3kl I like the previous time loop one.or the theory that the emperor sacrifice half of his sons to chaos for his powers ,or the one that's say's for his children to get to there full pintials they will have to grow on their own

[@bandaid6550]

I think you hit the nail right on the head in regards to the series as a whole. There were too many authors given too much creative freedom. This wasn't some Black Library omnibus; this was an incredible undertaking, and the fact that they didn't have a plan for the arcs of at least the main players (primarchs and Big E) is painfully obvious. They wrote the primarchs as what they would become from the beginning, and didn't make them what they were first. The wasted potential is the bigger tragedy, and we lost that with a lot of them.

[@VallornDeathblade]

They had a plan at the start, the early books fit together brilliantly well. However, there's been so much bloat in the story (as exemplified by the mass of anthology books that make up most of the later third of the series) and lazy writers who just grab the 40k primarch personalities and copy paste them into pre-heresy 30k, that it's almost unsalvagable. I'm gonna have to sit down and pick through my collection to make a reading list for people who want a more consistent + bloatless Horus Heresy experience (goodbye Damnation of Pythos, you will not be missed). I'm guessing it's gonna contain roughly 1/4 of the books in the series at most.

[@MCDrB-wq8ed]

One of the big problems BL has is the amount of shit Dan Abnett writes. I have read 2000AD since 1977 with a break between about 1984 and 1988 when I thought I was too old for it (I'm now 50 and still reading it!) and now about half of it's strips are written by him. It is getting so incredibly woke that I am on the cusp of cancelling my subscription. Honestly, it is getting seriously painful to read.

[@AAhmou]

@@MCDrB-wq8ed John French ain't doing a much better job either. Yet, you see him being quite a reccuring wrinter for the HH books.

[@lordadorable1140]

@@MCDrB-wq8ed Is it because he has to right that stuff lest some Twitter PR person decides that they are a bad person and Dan ends up being banned from most publishing companies?

[@MCDrB-wq8ed]

@@lordadorable1140 Nah, you only have to read his Twitter feed and read interviews with him, he is the wokist of the woke. Case in point is the 2000AD strip Grey Area. It's about an alien immigration zone on earth. It started off really good and came to a good end when the entire team sacrificed themselves to save earth from an alien apocalypse. Then Trump got elected and suddenly the team weren't dead but had been transported across the galaxy and suddenly the not so subtle allegorical message became all about refugees welcome, humans are all racists and there are white supremicists. Honestly, it was insufferable by the end!

[@eviljoshy3402]

"A flawless hero is usually not the most interesting" Somebody please tell this to Kathleen Kennedy

[@flippyandflaky]

I really hate when they take away the achievements of a powerful character and hand them over someone for whom it should be nearly impossible for them to achieve.

[@siemino7444]

Don't think like that, Warhammer has a strong foundation, one that cannot be replaced. It cannot be undone. This shit that they're shitting out is bad fan fiction. Fuck these pinko-swine larping revolutionaries. Our Fandom does not need them and no one needs to even acknowledge their bullshit books.

[@qiushuang239]

So like your adopted father?

[@Jesper-z6o]

It’s a form of marxism i guess? 🤷‍♂️

[@y0sh1js12]

When I first got into 40k the Legend of the Emperor amazed me. Perfect, all-knowing, father to makind, yet beaten, and a rotten corpse. Once they showed a weaker side, as for example how he "mismanaged" his sons, or how he is not able to personally take part in the siege of terra gave him a twist, more caracter... Now he is just being degraded whereever possible. Many such cases. sad!

[@Sujad]

I don't consider the Horus Heresy canon simply for Black Library trying to deconstruct the very setting that made them what they are.

[@MrLolguy93]

At this point, that term has become synonymous with "oh you like something? Here, let me ruin it for you"

[@woaddragon]

More like making the Universe safe in a legal standpoint. Wh40k borrowed a LOT of other Sci fi Universes, even the name GOD EMPEROR. Even unsuccessful lawsuits change the name and lore of other factions, such as...the Eldar.

[@woaddragon]

@trueblueprussian 23 While no one "owns" God Emperor and Space Marines, in various lawsuits, particularly tue Chapterhouse one, they certain act like they did. It was proven..they dont even have right to "Pauldrons". So they change things. Dark Eldar became Dukarii, stromtroppers became Temperous Scions and so on and so fro

[@darkbozo11]

@@woaddragon god emperor wasn't stolen from. Sci fi... it's "stolen" from antiquity

[@Matihood1]

@@woaddragon I personally have no problems with these alternate names. "Imperial stormtroopers" just screams Star Wars to me.

[@csabaszep8162]

While the God-Emperor of Dune was also bound by quite a lot of rules, most of those were self-imposed and at least he was the most powerful being of his time and well beyond that.

[@barrystrayer5794]

That series was only written by 2 authors, kind of 3 maybe, and there was still a huge division between the fans of the original Frank Herbert books and those of his son and that other guy. Personally I still liked all the books in dune. Leto II was such a tragic character

[@Venneroth]

Eldar enjoyer: First time? Seems to me that the Emperor was mostly a plot device to start, not a character in the normal sense at all. Then, probably as a part of the Heresy, GW decided to change that. Problems is, they've completely skunked the job. They had four main choices: 1. Nigh-infallible God Emperor, larger-than life character, strides through the Milky Way as a colossus. 2. Greek Tragic Hero, demi-god with a dream, gloriously impressive but fatally flawed (best option, and my preference) 3. Machiavellian schemer, ruthless and self-interested 4. What the hell are we doing? Don't know, don't care. Sadly, it looks like they went with 4. Whether that is disorganization on their part or deliberate sabotage I don't know.

[@woaddragon]

I was thinking the same thing. My belief is that it "deliberately disorganized. While it clear that there were some solid concepts in mind, how to them in universe is ramshackle together between codex keepers, black library writer, head honchos and the one guy, (I do mean one guy, )who has to keep track of it all. In addition, lore is design around the game, and "details" are not important to the head honchos, allowing codex and black librarian writer to o whatever they want. We saw this in real time with the Primaris marines

[@chaineyhines6006]

To me, the Emperor is a arrogant naive person who doomed humanity into a empire of stagnation of superstition and paranoia he strive to avoid.

[@jonathanwells223]

@@chaineyhines6006 then you are part of the problem

[@chaineyhines6006]

@@jonathanwells223 even the emperor said that his arrogance lead to the the HH and his penance is the golden throne to Roboute

[@piotrd.4850]

Really? They should have given him typical character journey from 3-1-2-4 With rationale for transitions.

[@NornQueenKya]

Emperor now in 40k: Guilliman: dad's not a god Big E: kamikazes a little girl as a holy bomb from light-years away Guilliman: Okay maybe dad's a god

[@Subject_Keter]

I think seeing a Living Saint is flying around and blasting their foes is a enough for sane people.

[@squatchhammer7215]

"We can't blame the authors" No no no, they have as much to blame as GW. They are as much as adults as well as professionals. If there's any lore and prevent information there should have been a clipnote of what is wants needs and what they hate and dislikes. Its not that hard. I do this for ttrpg characters most of the time even with throw away characters. It makes it much easier to keep actions repeatable and yes people are patternistic in a sense.

[@highmolecularweightRDX]

The Emperor is an abused father figure being humiliated by a bunch of writers with daddy issues, an outlet for the projection of their own life's difficulties. I get that stories about dysfunctional families are very appealing, but THE GOD EMPEROR OF MANKIND is supposed to be more than a meek husband with a histrionic wife and problematic children. Black Library authors might be technically skilled writers, but that's wasted when each is writing their own sonic OC (Neoth) about how much they hate their dad. Half the the HH will have to be memory holed for it to not be trash. Maybe that's what Arch should do; make a video of everything about the Emperor that should be non-canon. Wasn't there a youtuber who did a similar rewrite with the End Times?

[@friktogurg9242]

@@highmolecularweightRDX It is like Troy Denning all over again

[@RambleOn07]

Tbh, GW only has a couple good authors

[@LetholdusKaspyr]

For a huge multi-author project like this, you would need a huge planning phase, with a setting Bible set up on an offline wiki-style intranet site, with all the major plots outlined on a storyboard, and all the major characters and their traits and projected arcs detailed. Make it fully navigable, with a core section, updates from recent books, and a section where authors can spitball ideas and ask questions for their upcoming projects.

[@individual7046]

Sounds like a AI assistant would probably help as well

[@wintersking4290]

You're right though, Angron should be Actively hunting for Erda's head.

[@notsae66]

Khorne likes quick and messy kills, but for this one I think Angron would want to take a page out of Kurze's face bound book and do it nice and slow.

[@wintersking4290]

@@notsae66 I think he'd be ok with slow and messy... Just this once.

[@elysiankentarchy1531]

I support locking her in a room with Angron, Mortarion, and Konrad and informing them that she is the reason why their lives growing up were complete hell.

[@CatholicDragoon]

I could summarize the majority of the Horus Heresies problems as too much 40k in the 30k time period. Well, that and the slow filtering of modern day stupidity into our beloved grim dark future.

[@FutureBoyWonder]

Had there ever been a clear indication its your perception of modern politics or are you just tilted cause your mad GW fucked it up

[@Michaeljack81sk]

Makes me think of the Babylon 5 Episode "The Deconstruction of Falling Stars" that showed the future of earth. Twice the Earth Government tried to rewrite history to either minimize the involvement of Sheridan et al or to outright rewrite them into versions more suitable for their purposes

[@warhawk4494]

That was a great episode.

[@forrestdorman4870]

and true to how history will go when this era is eventually recorded.

[@thepsychicspoon5984]

Babylon 5 is garbage

[@warhawk4494]

@@thepsychicspoon5984 nice troll. But we all NuTrek is garbage and so is discotrek and pukecard. Hahahaha have a good day.

[@whyjnot420]

Was this the one where the A.I. driven holograms (or whatever they were) of the B5 officers were created to be used as tools of propaganda but had enough of the actual beliefs of the people they were supposed to be to sabotage the defenses of the, shall we say: jackasses, who created them? Or am I just tired and piecing things together from 3 series and 10 episodes?

[@Benthesniperof8]

TTS went from being the comedic relief of 40k fandom, to being more faithful and lore accurate to original 40k; then the Legitimate story being told by GW and FW. 40k is dead. And it was true all along; Only GW could ever kill it.

[@lordmaur180]

GW the great destroyer...

[@synonymdave]

The fifth god of chaos only known as GW Lord of all Bullshit!

[@akumaking1]

And GW put the kibosh in TTS . . .

[@stardestroyer19]

There's a lot of Problems with 40k, but I wouldn't go as far as to say it's dead.

[@Benthesniperof8]

@@stardestroyer19 It's dead. Bro the entire grandiose foundation has been taken apart, filled with bullshitery; then reassembled. At every turn during the reassembly, it detracts from the emperor's Power, Intelligence, Character and Overall Image. Erda having a hissy fit that split the primarchs amongst the galaxy, along with her being the "chief geneticist" alongside Dr. Astarte for both the primarch Project and the Astartes legions. That alone completely detracts half of the majestic nature of 40k. However the biggest kick in the nuts came before Erda was even introduced. The biggest kick in the nuts came in the form of Belesarious Cawl. All these people make achievements once attributed to the Emperor, no longer matter in the slightest. The foundation of in Universe 40k is pretty Fragmented as it stands. The part that makes me say 40k is dead, comes from our real world point of view. Games Workshop is currently trying its best to look like a good acquisition for a larger toy company. The sanctity of their ip no longer matters to them beyond what they can do to squeeze money out of suckers who will pay for it. It's why prices in AUD are 57% higher than GBP. And NZD prices are 78% higher nearly depending on specific models. The currency converter if applied correctly would only see a 23-31% price increase for both AUD and NZD. GW is actively destroying the reputation of 40k in universe, and in our real world. If that isn't the signs of a death throes than I'm not sure what is...

[@ornu01]

I've always felt that The Emperor is whatever he is needed to be at any moment of time. His Primarch sons saw what they expected, a father, a master, a god, a warlord, a monster, a rival, a leader, a savior, so on and so forth. Mankind sees him as a god, a protector, and a savior because that was what they need to survive. The Emperor himself exemplifies every human trait, the best and the worst, a benevolent tyrant and a compassionate murder, as blind as a bigot and as insightful as the greatest detective, but no one can be all things at once, he can heartlessly order the murder of a billion innocents and weep for a dying child in the same breath. He tries his best, but he has to fight against everything in the galaxy, so he stifles himself and embraces the mask of The Emperor, Master of Mankind and it's inevitable destroyer.

[@robby7025]

Above all else, the emperor was the protagonist no matter what.

[@ornu01]

@@robby7025 The hero we needed, and the hero we didn't deserve. Konrad is the hero we deserved.

[@individual7046]

I find it funny that Erda is eventually killed by Erubus(the former most hated character in 40k) in attempt to rack up sympathy points for her , but it ended up making Erubus more liked in the fandom.

[@KingBuilder525]

Congrats Erebus, there is now someone more hated than you.

[@the98themperoroftheholybri33]

I've always thought the books were a mistake and shouldn't have been made. When we only had 40k and some references to primarchs and the unification war, the great crusade and horus heresy was viewed almost as a mythical time of wonder and magic, where humanity united and had an inkling of hope, and the 40k time period was one of drudgery and incompetence where humanity is divided and bureaucratic to the point of uselessness. Sometimes not knowing every little thing is better

[@monkeyinapanzer]

I think the Hersey could have worked as a setting even as a alternative game if they had embraced the idea of it being fragmented and sometime contradictory stories of survivors and in universe best guesses like a few other people have suggested. Surviving marines primarchs might be able to perfectly recall what they and their immediate legion was up to at a given time, but if you for example had an Iron warriors account of what the world eaters where up to it would probably be vague at best. Some of the most interesting war stories likewise come from vets who don’t perfectly remember them or from people trying to hype up their side. Like the American tank crew who swore up and down they took down a Tiger II with all evidence suggesting it was actually a Panther. Having marines born long after the heresy sharing less then accurate and stories that would pretty fittingly assert their chapter or progenitor chapter to be the most important just adds that little extra bit of flavor.

[@chrisf7730]

the problem is, some of the books are really good, but it seems like they stretched the series out waaay too long

[@woaddragon]

It call the "michrondia effect" Once you "know" that Star war's THE FORCE was control organism in the bloodstream, it took all the wonder and excitement out of it. That was before the sequels.

[@BrickworksDK]

So very much this. The Heresy should have been left as a myth from a distant almost forgotten past. But of course, then it became a cash-cow and the rest is history.

[@CosmicFreedoms]

One of the Ultramarine books I think has an ancient relic stored in a planetary defense silo. A vortex missile that can devastate an entire battlefield with gravitonic manipulation and other cool vague sci-fi words. We didn't get any of that kind of high sci-fi military toys, just standard bolters and tanks, but more! Books were fine but a huge miss

[@someguy4405]

Honestly I would love to see a video on “Arch’s Emperor” rather than “GW’s Emperor”

[@Edmar_Fecler]

or TTS Emperor, for that matter

[@Analog_Mind47]

Basically we should stop recognizing everything GW has put out since 2017 as Cannon, and try to revise the franchise/setting after they crash it some years from now

[@jonnarterius3163]

Where would you say is a good start-stop point when it comes to reference books?

[@Analog_Mind47]

@@jonnarterius3163 Remove all references to Primaris Marines, look at everything else by a case by case basis to see if it conflicts or weakens the pre 2017 lore or not

[@thepsychicspoon5984]

TTS forever

[@sadwingsraging3044]

Yep. Purge GW and retcon the retcon.

[@Subject_Keter]

Just stop before Cadia falls, clean up general nitpicks and have all of these being Chaos trying to break humanity will but the Emperor light brings people back ul and ready to fight pretty much.

[@walkingbyself]

God. Fucking. Damn it. I thought I could not hate what GW has done to 40k anymore. I am proven wrong, again and again. The God Emperor is not just a powerful Psyker. He is the embodiment of what Mankind can Achieve. If GW wants to include all these side characters in his story, that's fine. But The Emperor of Mankind has to be the sole figure for whom all humanity owes so much to. Not some side character who wasn't even a footnote in the history books until 'current day' politics decided they needed to be added in. They've effectively reduced the God Emperor of Mankind into a fucking nobody who cant do shit without someone else better than him doing the work for him and him taking the credit. They are projecting their own self image on to the one person in the entire fucking setting who saved humanity and united it before the arch traitor Horus fucked it all up. God I hate these SJW fuck wits.

[@davfree9732]

I blame their Trump derangement syndrome. When the then President was referred to as the God Emperor GW decided to not bother waiting 4 years to see if he’d voted out. They went out of their way to sabotage their own IP to spite a guy who was attributed to their popular 40K character… This is like watching Marvel comics refuse to make comics about their MCU counterparts when the movies were driving people to look for Steve Rogers in comic form and finding Falcon. Or looking for Stark only to find Riri Williams… before declaring Stark was adopted and not a Stark at all… and after declaring Carol Danvers killed Stark and all he is now is a backup copy of his mind. Deconstructing these characters serves no fan of the franchise. It only serves the anti fan who pretends to love the franchise… as long as these things are changed so they fit the anti fan agenda.

[@jasongrundy1717]

Dude literally made 20 primarchs to do his work for him and you're complaining about side characters? Besides Belisarius Cawl > Emperor.

[@woaddragon]

Whoa, whoa, whoa

[@sadwingsraging3044]

@@jasongrundy1717 pffftthhahahaha! Donaldus Rex=godemperor

[@someguy4405]

Get used to it. It’ll be at least a decade before this kind of thing stops happening, since that’s how long it’ll take them to wreck all beloved properties. After that, we make new things ig.

[@physetermacrocephalus2209]

I am so old that I remember everyone losing thier shit the first few times the Emperor ever appeared in a scene; let alone had dialog. It was very exciting. I miss those days.

[@mikelasley8784]

Now big e is just some thicc boi that needed a woman to make the franchise's most iconic supersoldiers because politics

[@Trazyn_the_Infinite_40K]

My first book I read with him in it was the short story where we see him and Horus during the war over Ullanor. The Emperor, his Custodians, and Horus' chosen veterans get on the telepad, suddenly they are on the surface of the planet, there's a lull in the fighting. The Emperor simply goes "At them!" It is the same gravitas and weight as the moment where Mjolner returns to Captain America's hand and he says "Avengers...assemble."

[@ronnibech3376]

@@Trazyn_the_Infinite_40K I think you made a mistake there Mjolner can only be wielded by Thor and no one else :) though in the mytholigy he can only do that because of his belt of hill giant strength made by the dwarfs.

[@Trazyn_the_Infinite_40K]

@@ronnibech3376 In Marvel anyone who is worthy can wield thor's hammer. Captain America does this in the final Avengers movie.

[@ronnibech3376]

to wield a a hammer forged with the core of a sun ? .... no Captain America could never be worthy of that he is human... super human sure still only human... but then again I do not reconnize the movies as canon :3

[@angelangelis8362]

Got to love how GW tries to pander in their historical revisionism of their own setting...and yet completely miss the mark as WELL as make it worse. Think about this. Big E makes the Primarchs, don't care what GW has to say on that, he was the main one behind that. His wife, in a fit of apparent peek, not liking what Big E's plans are decides to take them away from him. And what does this supposedly second to Big E only perpetual who is ancient and wise do? SHE THROWS HER CHILDREN INTO THE CURRENTS OF THE WARP. She does this...and it's been stated she KNOWS what's out there. Congrats GW, in your attempt to Virtue Signal, not ONLY did you fuck up your own story...but you tried to do the Strong Wamen card and instead literally made it so the entire Horus Heresy, and therefore EVERYTHING that comes after it, can be blamed on a woman throwing an emotional tantrum. Even when you try to pander you fuck it up. Go bankrupt and die. Warhammer would be better off dead than in your hands you cultural vandals.

[@RambleOn07]

The Emperor having a wife makes no sense to me. I've always viewed him as a character who has absolute faith in himself and a massive superiority complex. I also liked how he was supposed to be the perfection of man who failed in the most basics of humanity, being a dad. Him having a wife makes him an entirely different character.

[@bushturkey798]

It makes allot more sense, if you assume it's actual misogynists wrote it. Then again, she-hulk had the same issue. Written by misogynists.

[@Chaostheory1980]

The Emporers Web way I always though was supposed to indicate that he had basically at prototype level reached the old ones tech level before it all went to hell.

[@Dadecorban]

no. He bailing wire, duct taped, and psychered his way into the already existing webway.

[@jamesespinosa690]

That was my take too.

[@Sorain1]

@@Dadecorban This is my take on it. He needed in into the network. Once he had that, the Imperium wouldn't collapse like humanity's last civilization did when warp storms cut off FTL travel/communications, because a core of the Imperium (the worlds connected to the webway) would remain functional and united. The strategic benefits before such an event are pretty blatant as well.

[@robby7025]

The emperor was the smartest human who achieved much in little time. The eldar, old ones and necrons had millions of years to develop their things.

[@Chaostheory1980]

@@robby7025 I thought the elder and necrons were gifted their tech to a degree to fight for the old gods/ catarn. Sorry for spelling I am tired. Though the can make, maintain and fully utilise said tech

[@XraynPR]

I like the idea of the Emperor not being an almost all good all powerful benevolent being. Him needing to be tyrannical, making difficult deals is ok for me. But stuff like Erda and him barely contributing in the creation of the Astartes goes too far

[@mrminecraftcubeable]

I always thought that the emperor was doing it out of necessity, that if the human webway was completed and a reliable way of resources distribution, transportation and communication was established he would try to make the human race prosperous and happy

[@irontemplar6222]

I always saw the Emperor as a villian, but at some point the writing just took a turn to making him an idiot which I dont understand. This is all made worse by the idea of the "Just as planned" Emperor. Where all of this was the plan all along

[@XraynPR]

@@mrminecraftcubeable yep, thats how I see him too. But he's been written as too incompetent and not ambiguous enough for my tastes

[@malaficus]

@@irontemplar6222 This. The emperor to me was always a bad guy but he utopia justify the means kind of bad guy. Not an idiot. More importantly he had failed because he was outplayed. Not because he was stupid. Really making bad guys stupid is almost as anoying as villians only winning because the hero has 1 braincell.

[@irontemplar6222]

@@malaficus well their is one area where I think he was perhaps not thinking with the most foresight. That being Religion. Honestly the idea that he was just going to get rid of Religion is laughable to me. Because we know it just doesnt work. Whenever you remove Religion. Something else inevitably takes its place and whatever does is usually far less sofisticated, and much more destructive. Such as ideology. The only thing the Emperor would have accomplished by removing Religion. Would have been weakening chaos temporarily. Destroy humanities natural bulwark in the form of religions that are antithetical to chaos. Than after a Short time chaos would explode as people start inventing new religions, and ideologies entirely, and these replacements which come to fill the void left behind will not have the thousands to millions of years of development and sofistication to their ideals, and practices. In short you make chaos infinitely more numerous and power (albeit less centralized) and you destroy tens of thosands to millions of years of cultural and ethical progress in your shortsighted attempt to destroy chaos.

[@AnomalyINC]

I'm still not over what they did to the C'tan. From the soulless Gods of Order, equal opposites to the Ruinous Powers yet just as ruinous, to Pokémon fielded by robots with Alzheimer's.

[@Sorain1]

I could actually accept it, if it had been handled better and there was at least one example of a C'Tan still out there in command of their Necron slaves. The Nightbringer would be the logical one, since in his introduction to the lore he *_barely_* survived starvation due to the Deceiver's trickery. Nightbringer would remain weak enough not to break the setting, but still a terrible threat and you'd still have the original style of 'silent omnicide' Necrons around and relevant.

[@AnomalyINC]

@@Sorain1 Yeah...and the "Pariah" plotline and the "next generation Necron" was entirely abandoned, the Dragon of Mars and the implication that the Cult Mechanicus was unknowingly (Or knowingly) working for the C'tan was reduced to a non-issue, and the whole hinted possibility that the Tau were descendants of ancient Necrontyr was likewise quietly done away with. There was so much to work with, but they just went with "Tomb Kings in Space", because the Thousand Sons wasn't obvious enough. They could have done it more smoothly, sure. And I understand the argument that the Necrons were void of flavour and individuality, and that GW didn't want to overshadow the Chaos Gods as the big bads of the setting...but man, Lovecraftian star-vampires presiding over the harvest of all life with countless legions of living machines is right up my alley! And it was so cool to read about unknowable gods that WEREN'T one of the four for once! It was mysterious and exciting! Can't have that.

[@elysiankentarchy1531]

The proper ending for Erda is locking her in a room with Konrad, Angron, and Mortarion and, after telling them what she did, kindly inform them that, as a Perpetual, she won't stay dead so they can go nuts.

[@seanwhitman8353]

Tell Perturabo and the Lion that too, and they'll get INVENTIVE with their brothers

[@MrLolguy93]

Aaron Dembski-Bowden is such a talentless hack to the point of hilarity

[@realcarlwinslow8779]

You’re allowed to be wrong bud.

[@boneman-calciumenjoyer8290]

Indeed, he isn't that good at his job, but then again, we're living in the timeline in which twilight became a bestseller. This universe obviosly has no clue about quality.

[@dickthehead1145]

Completely disagree, ADB is one of the only authors who actually makes Chaos sympathetic and make sense and at the very least he doesn't write primarch dialogue like they're secondary school children. All you have to do is keep him away from loyalist books. I don't care what anyone says, The First Heretic/ Aurelian are great and the way he wrote Lorgar made him go from the least interesting primarch to one of the most interesting. Not to mention are we forgetting Betrayer??? The fact he makes Erebus more then just a plot device? Argel Tal? To say he's talentless is just wrong, the guy can write he just obviously is a chaos fan. Its GWs fault for letting him write about the Emperor.

[@joshwenn989]

He used to be good. Now he's one of the ones pushing leftist politics into the setting and in a sane world would have been given the boot a long time ago.

[@Romuls753]

6:25 the Emperor named them the Astartes after her as a cruel joke, not because she was important in their creation

[@MrGabilonia]

To quote Pathologic 2, that quoted from Francois de la Rochefoucauld: "There are fine things in life, old boy, that are more brilliant when unfinished, than when finished too much"

[@elitemook4234]

My guess is that part of the deal the Emperor made with Chaos to create the primarchs stipulated that a number of them would fall, and while the Emperor didn’t know which ones would fall he could try to influence which ones were likely to do so, and this is why he treated some so much worse than others. He probably took one look at Angron and thought 'thank you for volunteering'

[@licensed_beheader]

I find that theory flawed . When the emperor walked out of molech, not only did he know how to create primarch souls but he also got a considerable power boost. From the warp yes but not from the chaos gods , one there is no way a chaos god leave alone all four will give you even a sliver of power unless they know with absolute certainty you are gonna be their pawn , two the emperor knew the first point highlighted above way before he entered the warp so getting their power would essentially doom him and humanity. Three even the most devout worshippers of the chaos gods are never even given a fraction of the power the emperor possessed so why would they give that much power to a random dude they could not control.And if the foul gods gave him the knowledge to create primarchs then why not give said knowledge to their mortal followers so they can create chaos primarchs en masse .Also let's not forget the information about the emperor consorting with the chaos gods originated from chaos worshippers and daemons who are known for their habit of lying and twisting the truth to suit their agendas.

[@TKUltra971]

It's actually theorized that the chaos gods wanted to have living inhabitable avatars in real space. There's a reason why the emperor brought 4 of his sons to Molech, then wiped their memories of the event. Horus eventually remembered and went to the same gate to "win a battle" with the chaos gods only to be manipulated into burning the galaxy.

[@Erikjust]

I think the Emperor actually had a name in the old lore or rather one of his older ones. It was Merlin. Yes THE Merlin, which in a way makes good sense as that fit very much with his lore that he sought to guide mankind to a new and better tomorrow. HOWEVER he did so from the shadows, never in the open and it wasn´t until old night forced his hand he came out in the open. One thing i did like about Master of Mankind was how the Emperor describes his foresight. He uses the analogy of a rock-surface. You can see the top and the apparent best way to get to the top. However you can´t see all the hidden danger, the lose rock the slippery surface etc etc. So all you can do when you hit upon them is to trying and work around them. That is actually quite good explanation as it would help describe ALOT of his actions. He needed Angron and if he did nothing Angron would die. Okay that´s an obstacle i could help him, but then i would need to spend time conquering the entire planet, which would make me late in for other engagements. Well if i am late there i foresee the Crusade slowing down to an unacceptable speed. Angron might be pissed that i saved him and not his friends, but all of my other sons have embraced their legion and basically forgotten about their old life. So i´ll gamble that this will also happen with Angron. Activate the teleport.

[@AAhmou]

I prefered back when he had so many names over the course of history, it wouldn't matter anymore.

[@jamesespinosa690]

The explanation being in short. He can't see THE future. Only many potential futures.

[@Erikjust]

@@jamesespinosa690 Yes to a certain degree. You are right in that he couldn´t see the future and path in it set in stone. Yet his predictions (the way i understand it) was quite a bit more accurate then the average "I am pretty sure this is what will happen." the way i understand it he could see the beginning and the end of a tale. Yet many of the finer details in getting from the beginning to the end was shrouded/hidden from the Emperor.

[@jamesespinosa690]

@@Erikjust Correct!! Manipulating the future is far more complicated than it first seems!

[@chasewilson3693]

My personal belief is that the Emperor is a great being, but suffers from one core flaw that is apparent in all humans. He doesn't want to be alone. I believe the emperor pushed for this path for a far more, ironically, human reason. He wanted to jumpstart Humanities evolution so he wouldn't be alone anymore. And no, I don't mean create sons made from his own genetic matter that are like little clones of him. I mean humans in general evolving the point where they are all alpha+ level psyker superhuman geniuses like the emperor. It explains a lot of why the emperor hated mutants so much, because they were going down a far different path than what he wanted humanity to eventually become. Its hard to comprehend the emperor's viewpoint, but the man has spent tens of thousands of years surrounded by humans who he is so much more advanced than. So much so that he views the rest of us like we view chimpanzees. We can see the similarities and why we share so much DNA, but ultimately they are shit throwing animals who are simply lacking in comparison to our intelligence. The emperor sees the rest of humanity the same way and desperately wants us all to start evolving to his level so he can finally have equals and not be surrounded by shit throwing chimps. Even the other perpetuals, while greater than humanity, are still nowhere close to his own level and he can only tolerate Malcador as he is that one genius chimp who can kind of almost be an equal if you squint hard enough. I think that is the real reason the emperor had such a hard time with Horus. Because despite him trying to distance himself from his "sons", who he only viewed as tools, Horus was someone who he unintentionally grew really close to as he just didn't think he could create someone who was so much like himself. Its why he built them all the primarch's rooms in his palace, they needed to be sequestered away to avoid tainting humanities evolution but he also wanted them to be as comfortable as possible since he can't help viewing them with some degree of familial compassion. Every justification the emperor gives is really just to hide his true very selfish reason, even from himself. Its something all humans want, even super humans like the emperor. But the modern version of the emperor is now just a fucking moron who totally wanted to become a god even though that makes no sense since he could have done that at literally anytime throughout human history and it would have been far easier. He knew it was all going to happen all along and planned for it. Despite it being clearly explained that he used most of his power and focus on the astronomicon to continue the great crusade and webway project to save humanity from chaos, and was thus unable to fully see the betrayal forming against him. He was totally an asshole for not telling his sons about chaos and banning religion. Despite the fact that chaos has been shown multiple times to be an all consuming corruption that simply grows by people knowing and believing in it and the many times in history (and many pre-imperial worlds) it wormed its way into people's hearts through religion. The emperor was totally willing to kill Horus despite him viewing Horus as his one true son, but Horus got all super duper powerful for nonsensical reasons so he couldn't. The modern writing for him is just so mind numbingly simple and lacks all the nuance of the character. Its frustrating to say the least.

[@Dadecorban]

i think this says more about your needs than the Emperor’s

[@woaddragon]

I agree with some points but not others. For example there a line that Dorn say that proves that a some level. "The emperor was alone, so he created Demigods like us to help conquer the galaxy."

[@chasewilson3693]

@@woaddragon That doesn't really invalidate any of my points though. He created them as tools to conquer the galaxy, once the galaxy was sufficiently conquered he would create the human webway and prevent psyker's from getting turbo fucked by chaos so they could grow and evolve into alpha+ level psykers. I think he unintentionally grew to view the primarch's as his sons, he wouldn't have gone to the effort of creating rooms personalized for them if he didn't. But that doesn't invalidate his primary reason for making them was for conquering the galaxy to give humans as a whole space to grow and evolve.

[@ZergMeTaSWORM]

I like the TTS philosophical interpretation of the god emperor. He wants what is best for humanity and is the pinacle of physical, intellectual and psychic prowness but is still human in some of his flaws mainly he lost himself so much in his mission he forgot the most basic human functions. that of a father to his sons. I hate the idea that he views his sons as nothing but tools and love the idea that he genuinely loved his sons but didn t know how to be a popper father to them and expected them to trust him completely without question. Edit: honestly it would be the most poetic thing in the entire universe, the "perfect human being" who failed in the most human way possible.

[@woaddragon]

Sorry, i see i deleted some of my comment. .what i meant to add was in that same book (Flight of the Eisenstein). It heavily implied that the Emperor made the Primarch as people.who he couls.really.relate too...as well as generals. I agree that he.made the Primarch as his peers and definatly see him as lonely. As for the modern tales of the emperor. Well i believe it more to.do.with the inherent living character with an immobile figure on a "golden throne." It at that point i disagree with you. For example. The idea of the emperor battles with his son, the Civil war, became.a "god" making sense in the backdrop. The idea.that incredible power man with immeasurable psykic might and the living knowlegde of history, science.and.technology, not see the Horus Herersy mile away is a lot more.harder to.believe. Same with not telling his son.about Chaos, or not being treated like a God the answer to.these contradictions, however create more problems. Oh the emperor knew that his sons was going betray.him, he made.them.with the.help of the.Chaos gods" So why he take any precautions? Why give his sons huge army with just a few day talking. Surely one like Argon and Korax could be vetting "Well, uhh, it was t just the Gods, it was ummmm Edda, the...a immortal wife of the emperor. She fling them to space. So this Edda, whom i.just learning about right now, and who would know all about chaos, willing sent her son through the warp. Yyyyeeeeppp. Also would she had known about his plans for decades? Why did she act now? Umm.., mother institution...? Ok, so naturally the Emperor.hunt her down. No Wait why not? With all theae new characters taking care of the process of making space.marines and a fleet he wouod.have the time. didnt Edda ruin his plans No, he knew it was going to happen. He knew what was going to happen, that his wife was foing to fling everyone to space or his sons were going to several potienal hellholes Uhhhhhh. Both (Sign) That just on one idea. Try dealing with that on every facet of the Heresy....with different writers and yoi got a problems. That just the necassary stuff. They has to be a better way to.telegraph to your audience that "Argon going to betray the emperor" than basic kidnapping him on the eve of an important battle, one who you literal watch from orbit for.weeks. I.understand.that you.want give a good reason for Argon to hate.the Emperor.but come on. That just Argon. He treat Corax with respect, even.when he.was in.the.really similar position. It crazy inconsistent.

[@darkinnovator2479]

Too many chefs ruin the broth, clearly. And don't worry, Arch! I am still one of the biggest supporters of Slaaneshi Daemon pulling bullshit, and the true Fulgrim reincarnated in his perfect clone. On a side note, OldManReacts has done countless ranting videos on characters, is constructing his own Heresy and has been slowly building a series known as "Mistakes of the Emperor". Could be worth a look, my Lord.

[@UnsoberIdiot]

Eh, having only a single chef would've ruined it anyway, if all we have to choose from are GW-chosen writers.

[@afuzzycreature8387]

Bingo. Each writer needs to be important as opposed to be a tool to carry the lore. As a result they'll damage the lore

[@darkinnovator2479]

@@UnsoberIdiot Very true. The Horus Heresy being a mystery would have been a lot more amenable. They should have just skipped to the Scouring.

[@darkinnovator2479]

@@afuzzycreature8387 Damage, if not outright spoil, ruin or destroy.

[@OfficioAudiorum]

Pretty much why I stopped making 40K music. Why put love, effort and work into promoting a franchise that actively destroys itself and alienate its fans? It's all just a bitter, incoherent mess at this point. Maybe sometime from now, when GW is just distant memory, we'll find the old books again and can share our love for the grimdark future once more, freely...

[@Sorain1]

I think you made the right choice and feel you should know that. You do great work, there is no reason to throw that into the mud they have and continue to make of the setting.

[@janneaalto3956]

In the prequel-prequel series Age of Technology, they reveal that Emprah was just a regular janitor called Bob and the rest of his life was just a Life Of Brian style series of accidents.

[@imaxinsertnounherex]

They strip everything away from him because they have grown to hate him.

[@MoonGoblin]

The emperor having wild swings in personality actually kinda makes sense, given that he was made of a bunch of shamans (psykers) sacrificing and combining themselves. For him at least there's an excuse for that inconsistency that feels pretty solid. Other characters don't have as good an excuse to be so inconsistent, though. It would be definitely better if they had had more writing direction from GW like Arch said...

[@jademunky4609]

Even as a teenager in the 90's reading the old lore at sleepovers at friend's houses, I still got the impression that we were never supposed to like the Emperor and the tyranny was always there.

[@chesterbonaparte6787]

Are....are they diminishing the emperor so they can kill him and have his wife become the god empress?...

[@Sujad]

The Horus Heresy should not have been set during the Horus Heresy, it should have been after with it being told by surviving marines or as stories passed down from person to person. Intentionally contradictory with bits and pieces matching up from differing story tellers at most and have it left to the reader to determine what was real or not. Telling everything and ruining the mythos of the characters has tarnished the setting.

[@konstantinkuhne2396]

It is actually the best way to read it - to imagine it as a historiograph of the events, written after the Heresy, maybe during the Scouring. With little details increasingly added here and there to support the Imperial narrative, which also gradually change during the series. My favourite of this is the change of Sanguinius' hair colour from black in Horus Rising to golden in later novel - this mirrors the change in early Christian and especially orthodox iconography with the gradual implementation of ever larger golden halos for saints.

[@Sujad]

@@konstantinkuhne2396 Exactly. Stories or perspectives from the Primarch's point of view should never have been done either. They're so above humans in terms of intellect and ability there's no way to ever do them justice. Same with the Emperor. Any interactions should have been from someone else observing their actions and most likely not understanding why they're making the decisions they're making and for extra delicious spice, have the reasons become apparent in other books. It would be a great way of tying together disparate views and stories to make more sense.

[@jonnarterius3163]

I feel like the more they try to micromanage the setting, the more contradictions will occur. They should of left alot of information vague.

[@jakefrost7404]

The Ciaphus Cain book, "For the Emperor" also presented a good format for 40k storytelling: a series of personal memoirs, curated by a third party, with related appendices added by said third party for additional context.

[@boneman-calciumenjoyer8290]

Damn, that's actually a really great idea, so good in fact, that I'll steal it.

[@Tsanqar]

23:52 "We're wandering a bit off point here"...... well that's the speciality of Arch

[@gandalf1379]

The problem as always with GW is greed. Anyone who has read HH novels knows there was a shift in focus after the 3rd novel. At this point GW realised how much money they could make so they started to draw things out. Let's be honest, the fourth novel in the series could be the siege of terra and the final duel... probably would have been had the previous 3 books not done so well. Now we've had too many authors with too many different takes, all wanting to make their own mark on the series.

[@friktogurg9242]

It is a cluster fuck

[@jamesespinosa690]

I think a big part of the problem, is for whatever reason. The people in charge of the lore decided to move away from the fan theory that "everything has been determined by the Emperor to some extent", to whatever we want to call the bullshit we have now. I think in an attempt to "subvert the audience" the creative team has thrown away the Spice. I blame modern culture and the nature of corporate structure's.

[@thewayfarer8849]

Oh yes. I know that ADB and Abnett don't like showing The Emperor in the greatest light, and would not be surprised if Ollanius and the others actually attack him. But Guy Haley's 40K Emperor does certainly seem to be pained, and emotional. The Valdor book does a bit of correction mentioning his "human sentiments" ebbing away. Which means he did have them for millennia, and while making his plans. Another example is Nick Kyme's Mercy of the Dragon story: where it's so obvious that the BL authors who dislike The Emperor/portray him as inhuman are not the entirety of the art direction. Teaching humanity to his brothers is Vulkan's purpose; *clearly* there is care and we can choose to believe that as much as Big E making brusque comments in say Master of Mankind, which ADB went out of his way to say was about interpretation and basically excusing away any notion of objectivity in his own story. My headcannon is that taking on Chaos, and so much power removes him from humanity. He can love, but cannot afford to; which is a theme in almost all of the Primarchs throughout the Heresy. He *does* care, but like Dorn, Gulliman and others is basically bullshitting with a mental glamour a lot like his physical one. And ironically, his trust in Horus, his love for his sons validates the idea of being un-empathetic.

[@forrestdorman4870]

ADB is a complete asshole. Personally interacted with him. He by far of all BL writers needs to be either let go or closely monitored by editors. He’s incapable of letting his own personal feelings not interfere with his writing. Him clearly hating trump and the empires memes and his very obvious communist sympathies makes him a terrible writer for the books he’s being contracted to write.

[@ZergMeTaSWORM]

Basically the TTS take on the emperor. An almost perfect being that failed in the most basic human impulse. being a propper father. It is the best take in my book as to why shit went the way it did. Like a cold and calculated emperor would probably never let angron live (especially if he had some form of future sight). He would probably try to show the more warp sensitive of his sons what chaos is since it was obvious it was inevitable if they did dabble in it. Him wanting to offer his sons some protection and genuinely caring for his sons would allow the entire shit to unfold the way it did and stopped him going against some better judgements that would be spanwed.

[@friktogurg9242]

@@forrestdorman4870They need to do the s and c canon from star wars for this crap. Piss them off.

[@friktogurg9242]

@@ZergMeTaSWORM The books make him more incompetent

[@dickthehead1145]

@@forrestdorman4870 disagree, purely because he's easily the best Chaos writer and it isn't close. He just needs to be kept away from writing loyalists.

[@BeastGrid]

Oohhh some Neoth lore :P What a way to mess up an amazing character, he never needed a name, and giving him one takes away from his Majesty

[@sadwingsraging3044]

Donaldus Rex

[@darkbozo11]

I just heard about this for the first time..and for real NEOth? Edna causing the warp storm? Being killed by.. drumroll Ereberus with the anatame? As a 25+ years long 40k fan I wish I didn't learn about all this...uninspired and it doesn't interest me at all ..

[@DominicMaez]

About 7:50 is the best way I could have ever envisioned hearing what the emps backstory is ever. Well done

[@BrotherHood-xh9sg]

As someone who gets his lore (mostly) through Arch and doesn't read the books himself. This video made the Emperor go from this mysterious human to god entity, with failures and sucesses. To just some dude with golden armor. If I was an imperial guard, who having heard this, I would have lost hope in the Emperors cause for the unification of humanity. As I no longer think he would be able to achieve that. Basically distinquishing my hope in a tyrinid, chaos etc. Infested galaxy to be saved. I would of course then promptly be executed or send to the front lines. But the point remains, they did him a bigger disservice then Disney did Luke (somehow).

[@ricks5756]

3:03 according to the books, there where 2 "golden thrones", apparently from Mars. The second one was a crucial plot point in the uprising of the Dark Mechanicum and was lost during the Schism of Mars .

[@jamesespinosa690]

Which book or books specifically?? I gotta check this out!

[@ricks5756]

@@jamesespinosa690 Mechanicum and Cybernetica ... the plot point you are looking for is the initial scrapcode attack . The creator was ( apparently ) Koriel Zeth, and the second Golden Throne was lost when Magma City was destroyed.

[@jamesespinosa690]

@@ricks5756 Thank you very much!!! Ive got Cybernetica on my shelf. Need to pick up Mechanicum again. I take it that the second throne would have been part of the Akashic Reader then?

[@jamesespinosa690]

@@ricks5756 It seems they built the second one? While the Emperor claims he found the first. Also, I don't know if it's widely known, but the Emperors Throne is a pain engine. That's how his psychic power is multiplied through the throne. It causes him intense pain. And as we know, negative feelings are stronger in the warp than positive ones.

[@corperk]

You're thinking of the Dark Glass Throne. The Akashic Reader, the thing on mars, was a psychic beacon that could connect to the astronomican. It's true purpose was to touch the soul of the new guardian.

[@TurKlack]

... Luetin would probably just say "The Grimdarkness of the 41 millenium has no real canon and we have to accept everything as true." Even if it makes no sense, directly contradicts other informations and is a pain in the ass in general.

[@RageAgainstTheDyingOfTheLight7]

I will go with when chaos was so close to earth it screwed up all record keeping with its taint So the only true full account will come from The Emperor the Primarchs or the 4 gods all of witch are biased and will lie

[@oditeomnes]

I always imagined that if the emperor ever had a name in the ancient times it would be the great persons of myth, like the Gilgamesh or Achilles, or even deities from Greek mythology. It would even explain his power levels combined with his origin in ancient Anatolia.

[@Xithar_tri]

I see the mainsource of the problem in the death of Alan Bligh in 2017, who was the lead writer of the Horus Heresy. Until then, the series had been mostly consistent. After his death, the other authors are now trying to bring the series to a conclusion, but ultimately the controlling authority that had the master plan is missing and so it is now fraying.

[@Noxims47314]

Bligh left so much behind to witness and process, i would argue the campaign books he worked on pretty much set in stone what and how the Horus Heresy period should be the definitive interpretation of events. had he'd been the proverbial architect, all i can imagine them doing now is laying waste to all of it.

[@MataPasiones69]

Although I love Alan Bligh's work for forge world, I believe his take of "There is no hierarchy of skill between the legions. Legion A can do the same thing just as well as Legion B" is so stupid and unrealistic. Also, the legion numbers make zero sense given the casualties the legions take in the civil war.

[@brian-8814]

Calling it now, she will come back as the Goddess Empress of Mankind.

[@sadwingsraging3044]

All shall love me and despare

[@Venneroth]

Not the Deity Monarch of Peoplekind?

[@daywither927]

Oh my, I've been looking forward to this. The Emperor is a good guy. He might be slightly harsh towards xenos, but who can blame him after all they did, and he still is open to negotiations with them. Even then, if his plans came to fruition they would have benefitted literally the whole universe. He is the ultimate hero, the one who would save the world if he did not fall, and that must be what he always is. He makes mistakes, as the whole existence of Horus' rebellion makes clear, so he is not a perfect mary sue hero. But his mistakes cannot stem from stupidity. The most sensible reason should be his love and care for humanity and for his sons. That his feelings get in the way of judgement, that should be the explanation for why he did not delete Angron once he found him, and fuck that short story about finding Angron. This should be the starting point for his morality, he is the hero who puts just a bit too much faith in his friends and family, and he does not want to hurt them, even when it is necessary. It is also what is reflected in the ancient lore, with big E hesitating to strike Horus even as he stands above the maimed body of Sanguinius, as well as the continued existence of all the traitor legions while two other legions have previously been removed from history. As far as his accomplishments, diplomacy and stuff is fine. That is a bit of the "man behind the myth" thing that you will see if you explore his story in more detail, and it does not take away from his capabilities, it only shifts them to be more pragmatic and realistic rather than doing something like the Ethereals. His scientific projects, he can have a team of the most brilliant people on Terra, but he has to be the driving force, the one who did the hard work, while everyone else are like Watson to his Sherlock. Capable, but lacking his spark. He made his sons, he made his angels of death, he constructed the Golden Throne. It needs to be his work, not of some dudes he appointed, otherwise it diminishes his established character. And regarding who the Emperor is, I'd recommend making a dozen different backstories which make enough sense but which cannot be confirmed, with bonus points for introducing them through unreliable narrators. What exactly he is is not especially important, and even coming up with a very good definitive answer might simply box you in and limit what you might want to do. Ambiguity is better here. The Emperor's name is an entirely meaningless thing to establish as nobody would even think of using it anyway, he is simply the Emperor as the books said many times before they decided to fuck it up. Still, if you have to do that, there are a handful of mythological names that would not be absolutely horrible, names that can bring up more curiosity since they have inherent implications. Like "Adam".

[@martinmortyry7444]

Great comment. I'd honestly pin it if I were Arch.

[@holo525]

Adam is a good name lol very prophetic. Solomon might be VERY interesting in its implications considering the Emperors mysterious relationship with Chaos via the planet Moloch.

[@Sorain1]

I think the fanfic writer who picked Adam Kadmon got it right. It's classical, antiquated and not that important to him anymore. But he still knows his original name.

[@ohamatchhams]

@@Sorain1 If his actual name being of Adam Kadmon instead of simply Adam, that could bring implications of Emperor was initially existing beyond the scopes of humanity, even preceding The Old Ones and The Warhammer40Kverse itself, considering Adam Kadmon is the very prototype of carnal earthly humanity All while in several groups Adam Kadmon even to precedes Divinities of every gods in groups of Judaism and Christianity that now deemed as heretical by Mainstream Church(es), bringing the Humanity as Archetypal symbol of creations, perhaps Emperor's souls ultimate origin being one of the great splinters of the original Adam Kadmon which imbues with it's own free will to accelerate the evolution of humanity before, during or after the events of "War in Heaven", having The Emperor as the main catalyst for The actual End TImes and bringing Psychic Awakening and transforms most of the inhabitants of the galaxy to permanently alter the states of The Warp or being a beacon to respond to Tyrannids or even the very genesis of Halo Stars/Ghoul Stars/etc Might as well adding Watchers in The Dark as the eponymous "Watchers" types of Angels in the Apocryphal Books of Enoch and Dead Sea Scrolls as their scheming and prophetic Psychic natures even being more accurate and older than The Emperor, further adding gravitas to the significance of The Primarch Lion too (this could lead Primarch Lion to have unique true forms akin to how Sanguinius or Corvus Corax alongside Primarchs being lesser warp deities from Majorkill's Primarch origin theory too) Games Workshop has A LOT of opportunities to expands to these and I argue their Tabletop miniature wargame settings has became too stagnated to make them actually initiate End Times properly, hence we got a warning of how Age of Sigmar turned out for making things kept grimdark, flaunting The End of Galaxy/Universe but never actually doing anything with it, in fact All Tomorrows done so much more with 1-2 books than any of the messes from Black Library authors to the point it's sounding like unintelligible schizophrenic and anachronistic mess with The Warp as huge plot devices, despite The Warp has been established to have an Origin and therefore can have it's own expiration dates as much as everything in The Galaxy Fucking hell this is why J.R.R Tolkien being so far, the only prominent modern Western fiction writers that succeeds in establishing timeproof and generationproof Mythology in good Faith, none of the moral ambiguity, perpetually running and eventually stagnating to declining settings of so many modern sci fi and high fantasies, Michael Kirkbride's writings in Morrowind alongside his extra-canonical C0DA comes close to what J.R.R Tolkien had established for Elder Scrolls franchise

[@stillwaterbuilders3714]

My favorite portrayals of the emperor in horus heresy series is the mechanicum by Graham mcNeil. Where the emperor's Psychic, tactical, and predictive prowess is on a supernatural level. A prophecied wonder that was foretold, lending not only hope for man in the 40k universe, but a gut rot reality that I think makes the universe more dark, and mysterious as originally intended.

[@BadlanderOutsider]

I thought it was a mistake when they started writing the books back nearly twenty years ago and nothing that's come out has convinced me otherwise.

[@LordNithilus]

I consider the HH series (hell, most stuff written by BL or GW within the last few years) apocryphal.

[@jamesgorman5241]

It'd be nice to see the big E back and the terror of the church. It'd be like having the auditors in.

[@derekjackson5464]

I take my hat of to you sir. You found a way to get the hits from an Emperor lore video while explaining why you weren't making one. I do enjoy cunning, even when it is dirty cunning. I suspect you may have hit the nail on the head with your muttered comments relating to aerial pedestrians. GW may well have to pull the old 'They're just legends! Unreliable narrators!' trick to get them out of this 'too many cooks' situation, as Disney did. Of course the whole point of the Horus Heresy series was to give us some canon on the era, so wasted effort, we now have to choose our head canon from an even larger body of work. Thanks I suppose. Keep up the good work.

[@docvaliant721]

I like the book outcast dead. Cool lore things in it. Makes primaris more possible and thunder warriors becoming astartes. It does make the custodes look bad. A naked world eater sgt beats a armored custode as one example.

[@musicninja98]

Well, I'm glad that I never had the time to make it out of the first book. This sounds like the Sequel Trilogy for 40k.

[@Sorain1]

The irony is the first 3 books are exactly what we would want... and then instead of publishing the fourth and final book, it all goes wrong.

[@hanng1242]

The problem with the entire Horus Heresy series is that it was completely unnecessary. It would have been better if the era remained shrouded in myth, with hints here and there (like the Lion and the Wolf). There are interesting tidbits: I get a kick out of how 40k Ultramarines treat the Codex Astartes as sacrosanct, but 30k Ultramarines were all about thinking for themselves. I like how 40k Space Wolves have become what they were pretending to be in 30k. I think the story of how the Death Guard and the Emperor's Children fell to Chaos is pretty cool (the story of how Thousand Sons, World Eaters and Word Bearers turned to Chaos are not nearly as interesting). I like the the lore regarding the Custodes and the Sisters of Silence. I like the development of the characters of Sigismund and Kharn - the former to help explain why the Black Templars are the way they are, and the latter because of the tragedy of how the most level-headed of the World Eaters became what he became. However, as a whole, the entire series shouldn't have happened. As for the Emperor's militant atheism (and his other baffling actions), the problem is that for somebody who has lived the entire course of human history, he seems to have no understanding of human nature. While cutting off Chaos by eliminating religion is a nice theory, it is entirely unworkable because man inevitably turns to religion - whether this be actual religion, or Social Justice, or what not. The Imperial Truth was destined to fail, which means that the Emperor is a moron who couldn't figure it out despite being around for millennia. Hell, his atheism isn't even thoughtful atheism - it is the sophomoric "there-is-no-God-because-Science!" sort of atheism that edgy teenagers adopt to annoy their parents.

[@steel8231]

GW: "We aren't sexist." Also GW: "The biggest calamity in our universe's recent history was caused by a woman abandoning her kids."

[@Kyle-kc4kr]

Giving the Emperor a name was a mistake, the very fact that we DIDN'T know his name added to his mystique and added to the character and the name they chose for him? Neoth? That's an absolutely garbage name, they have an entire history's worth of names they could have chosen but they chose "Neoth" and I'm willing to bet they chose that garbage name to diminish him further because no one with any sort of good sense would name their big badass mega psyker dude "Neoth" unless they wanted to diminish him. I also don't agree with having people trying to write the Emperor as a character, he should be in the background a looming godlike figure that the various characters in the novel allude to rather than trying to write a character that is infinitely smarter and possibly operating on a different plane of existence than the author.

[@darkbozo11]

I haven't followed the lore the last year... since when or in what book did the emperor get a actual name???? If you give me the name of the book I'll know I'll skip

[@joshwenn989]

@@darkbozo11 Saturnine. Also the book where his strong independent wife is introduced

[@nonamed9613]

I would not be suprised by now if they used ,,the mother of the primarchs" and the plotpoint that they needed their genetic material or something as the sole justification to make female primarchs and space marines

[@robby7025]

Yeah and then sisters of silence and sisters of battle suddenly become irrelevant.

[@maddlarkin]

This is why I gave up on the Horus Heresy books, too many writers with too many ideas often contradictory and too much editorial indulgence when those idea completely destroy set ups by earlier writer a in the series. Whatever structure was planned by Abnett and McNeil at the start was long ago abandoned and it became a drawn out mess.

[@Sorain1]

I wish we could see the outline they had crafted initially blast it...

[@davidrossa4125]

Blessed be the God-Emperor of Mankind!

[@nerowulfee9210]

"Its me, ya boi" - The Man-Emperor of Mankind.

[@hallo-mt5tx]

feels like they wanted to humanize him by implementing flaws into his actions and character, but overdid it it takes away from the vision of the human utopia he would have created if chaos didnt intervene now, we can say he wouldnt have been able to do that anyway, so the heresy and its consequences arent as bad after all

[@Lordradost]

So much of the Emperor's knowledge could have been attributed to the *Dark Age of Technology / Golden age* . Someone who has lived through all ages, is a living repository of all kinds of knowledge, but is stuck retro-engineering allot of it. Someone who is in all respects god-like but still human, thus very far from a god. All in all: too many authors, too many directions, petty insertions of important side-characters.

[@paladinebahamut]

Regarding the Emperor's different facets/personalities, I think it's a combination of him appearing like a Vorlon (being what the viewer expects in a godlike figure) and that he is an amalgamation of so many different souls. Or the writers are just that terrible.

[@Khalith]

Amar appears more in the Valdor book where she tries to destroy the Astartes project before it gets off the ground because she fears what the space marines will be without their primarchs so she blows herself up not realizing the research had already been moved. Then after finding out what she did the emperor decrees they be named after her. My interpretation is that he did it as a private joke and final “fuck you” to her memory. Giving the project she wanted destroyed her name.

[@SGTvolcan]

I think that anyone can come up with their own lore of the God Emperor at this point.

[@winterweasel425]

I'm fucking conflicted. I like the 40k universe, i like the aesthetic and I've been reading the ciaphas cain books and they're a lot of fun. However it feels like it can't go 2 months without a retcon, most of which aren't handled well, and I refuse to support GW because they're dicks, so I'm gonna have to pirate and 3d print any product I want. I don't know, this who shit is annoying...

[@friktogurg9242]

The warhammer universe autistic with their retcons, it is like they cannot organise their own narrative properly.

[@charion1234]

Unfortunately Angron was found on the day the Emperor had a headache and was a bit constipated.

[@Brutalyte616]

So I'll say that I actually LIKE the idea of the Emperor's character being inconsistent. Why? Well for one, I subscribe to the shaman suicide theory, but also because it leaves you questioning just who the Emperor is as an individual when his psyche can be influenced by his previous lives, and it justifies how the Emperor can be the perfect man, the greatest of all men, the God of Humanity, a god of Order, a demigod, an eldritch and inhuman thing in the vague shape of a man, a caring single father, a negligent and sometimes outright abusive father, and a complete bumbling moron that couldn't take a hint if Vulkan welded it on to his hammer and bashed him over the head with it. It keeps the mystery of the Emperor open while still allowing everything he's ever done, thought, or said to be told in EXCRUCIATING detail, because it makes the Emperor into the ultimate unreliable narrator short of putting him in a cutaway where he's in the looney bin in a straitjacket rambling about the End Times, because the Emperor himself isn't even totally sure of who or what he or what he'll do in any given situation. And, to top it all off, it explains why some of the more recent depictions of the Emperor, namely during his reunion with Guilliman after his resurrection and subsequent roadtrip to Terra, seems to have developed an actual split personality disorder that only permits him to have coherent thoughts and speak properly for brief periods of time. All this other bullshit however? Give the Emperor help for his projects and even feel free to introduce more characters to the narrative, but do so in an intelligent manner. Giving him a wife that we have NEVER heard of until now? Kind of idiotic, and it just screams of someone wanting to shoehorn in a female character that is just as important as the Emperor, only to completely drop the ball and make her objectively worse than the Arch-Bastard Horus Luperchal himself, 'Hypocrisy Incarnate' Lorgar, and 'That Motherfucker' Erebus. So you know how I fix that? Go ahead and make it so the Emperor needed a female Perpetual to create the Primarchs, but make it so she's a fragment of the Emperor, and most importantly, she's a fragment that doesn't have all the details. She's spent God-Emperor only knows how long totally convinced that her sending the Primarchs off the way she did was the right thing to do because she remembers that she HAD to do it this way, but she doesn't remember why, and THAT'S why she's confused when it gets brought up; her mind was compartmentalized to such an extent that she can't see the flaw in her line of reasoning and how illogical it is until someone points it out to her. That puts the impetus of the scattering of the Primarchs back on to the Emperor as a failsafe against the Chaos Gods interference even if he was somehow indisposed, because they wouldn't be able to recognize this random ass woman as the Emperor until it was too late, while still leaving enough wiggle room to say that the Emperor fucked up somewhere and didn't account for something in his grand design. Cawl? Clean his lore up and put emphasis on the struggle he needed to get the Primaris Marines functional and he's fine. He's had 10,000 years to do this crap, and lord knows the Mechanicus have done more with less. Looking at you Legienstrasse... Astarte being the lead scientist and the namesake for the Legiones Astartes? Again, reeks of shoehorning in a female character for the sake of giving them some more agency, especially at first glance, but there's a few things to consider. The Emperor was already able to make the Custodes, so clearly he already had a superior product. So it stands to reason that the biggest hurdle in creating the Astartes was not making a better Custodes, but instead making a reliably mass-producible knockoff, and it would not be outrageous for the Emperor to hand such a task off to someone else while he worked on the Primarchs and for the two projects to intertwine through the cultivation gene-seed. Also, the Astartes already had an association with the goddess Astarte, a war goddess speculated to be an offshoot of the goddess Ishtar in the transitory stages between Ancient Mesopotamia and Ancient Greece, because there's evidence suggesting that the Spartans imported their idea of Aphrodite Areia, or 'Aphrodite the Warlike', from nearby Laconia, a place where Astarte was worshipped and is supposedly where Aphrodite first came to the shores of Greece after forming from the seafoam kicked up by Ouranus's severed testicles after his son Cronus sliced them off with a sickle and dropped them into the ocean, which in itself is supposedly borrowed from another myth from the Hittite's where Ishtar's grandfather, the sky god Anu, had his testicles bitten off by his son Kumarbi, who somehow became pregnant with and gave birth to the storm god Teshub. ...Okay, I know I'm well beyond the point of rambling by now, but in hindsight, this shit is making WAY too much sense for me and either somebody at GW is WAY too into mythology and mythohistory, or Tzeentch has finally actualized into existence and is fucking with us as we speak, because there is no way this association between war, badass super soldiers, women, feminism, gods and goddesses, severed testicles, usurpation of godly fathers by their sons, and the creation of new entities from said severed testicles is coincidence.

[@colers2366]

As I understand it; the Emperor created the Thunder Warriors and Custodians. Astarte build off them to stabilize and scale down the mutation into what would become the space marines. It is even outright said that before Astarte was recruited by emps, she was a total fuckup who was continually failing to create the super soldiers, as the hurdle of creating a super soldier strain to begin with is far higher than merely stabilizing it. Erda also makes sense; because now it isn't just some random chick who donated the second DNA strand. Because that is the other side of the coin without the primarchs being clones. Its just the way they incorporated her into the story being fucking retarded, with her essentially having a post-natal mental breakdown, fucking up everything forever by doing something she KNEW was a shit idea, and then whining about it instead of aiding with the recovery and correction of her sons because apperantly being alive for over 30000 years doesn't get you some fucking character development.

[@antcow1239]

I think thats fair enough

[@notsae66]

The Primarchs weren't clones and they didn't have a mother, they were fully designed by the Emeperor with no humanity to them at all. This is part of the irony and tragedy of their existence; they are the protectors of mankind, the ideal to reach for just next to the Emperor himself, but are in truth not human at all. They need no mother nor father, they are not humans.

[@HalfTangible]

40:06 it is my personal headcanon that Fulgrim IS still in the painting, that the demon took Fulgrim and that Fulgrim has not managed to take his body back. Everything we saw in that short story was a long con by the demon to keep the Emperor's Children on his side, even into the utmost depths of demonic possession and depravity. Yeah trickery is more Tzeentch's thing than Slaanesh's but that doesn't mean Slaanesh cannot lie.

[@Subject_Keter]

All the new lore is the chaos gods trickery, they want us to stop caring so they can infest it.

[@HalfTangible]

@@Subject_Keter Nah. That would be compelling and interesting.

[@MrFallenone]

He also has almost none meaningful interactions with his sons ... because we can't humanize him that would be bad ... but remember he loved them ... we just won't ever see such activity from him ...

[@Thalanox]

I just listened to the Magnus audiobook, and he has a nice conversation with Big E. E has a really humble outlook on himself, admitting that he makes mistakes. He says that Magnus has his intellect, but also says that there's risk in thinking you know everything and being overconfident. When Magnus asks what mistakes the Emperor has made, he says that he doesn't know yet. This is set on earth, and there are other primarchs talking to each other.

[@Roadrun98]

You either die a hero, or live long enough to see yourself become the villain.

[@kainv.9221]

Great video, Arch! Keep up the good work)

[@inquisitorgarza312]

Big E is by far the most complex character in all fiction, because by his very nature he supposed to be unknown to us. Are his motives truly benefit for mankind, or they his personal desire, does truly loves his sons or seems them as nothing more than weapons and tools, does actually have a plan to defeat Chaos or is he still buying time we just don’t know. To Explain the Emperor of Mankind will require hours on pond hours of discussion and conversation to even scratch the surface of his motivation much less his ultimate goal for mankind.

[@woaddragon]

That what the Emperor was....we will see those days again.

[@syrienangel4137]

My answer for all those questions is yes

[@raisttlyn]

I've said it before. Arch should be the GW continuity official.

[@classiclarry88]

I always thought something seemed 'off' about the Emperor through the series and now you have connected the dots Arch. What about doing a lore video on the 'classic' version on the Emperor? Aka, before the Heresy series started.

[@Sorain1]

I think that's a solid idea for a video, since it would contrast so well with this while not needing this video to be worth watching.

[@BaoHadir]

To redeem Angron, they'd have to somehow break his bond with Khorne, undo his Daemon Prince transformation, remove the Butcher's Nails from his head, and then get him into 10 thousand years of therapy, minimum. None of which sound plausible.

[@PhthaloGreenskin]

I feel like ADB did a good job with the emperor's gift and painting the Grey knights in a better light during the 1st war for Armageddon seeing the story from the perspective of the grey knights who were reluctant to fight the space wolves and do the insane amount of purging demanded by inquisitor Kysnaros. Although the boom made me hate Logan grimnar because he tried to murder malcadiel and Hyperion but bjorn and the fenrisian inquisitor were pretty well written.

[@OptimusJedi]

Thank you so much for making this video. Perfectly sums up so many of the HH gripes I have and I agree with every point made.

[@r.j2033]

Fuck 👏 the 👏 Reflection 👏 crack'd 👏

[@tomasburian6550]

The Emprah prottex! Sometimes he also attax! But most importantly... he inconsistex!