The Great December Debate feat. Lemonkiwi, Skiesti & AVRL

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Timestamps
0:00

[@GroupUp]

This episode was recorded on 16/12/22. Podcast links below! The best way to support my content is still www.patreon.com/svb Soundcloud: soundcloud.com/ow_svb/the-great-december-debate Spotify: open.spotify.com/show/6sRWutKTc0gnWuguo62Vpa Apple Podcasts: podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/svbs-group-up/id1490256265

[@shaidied1828]

Honestly I really enjoy when you get people with VERY different opinions on the podcast. I do love the normal gang, but seeing AVRL and Skiesti discuss Mercy with super different takes on her is very interesting because it shows how divided to community is on issues.

[@Harevald]

When you bring only people who agree with you it seems like making game good is easy af, but bring millions of opinionated people and it becomes unsolvable. Devs needs to have strong beliefs about their game , bank on it and people who are happy with that decision will stay. Whenever you shift ideas left and right, someone will be unhappy. If game at it's core never changes some people will have a blast and some will leave entirely AND IT'S FINE. It's impossible to make game for everyone

[@IncredibleMet]

It’s a community. We have stuff in common but not everything.

[@SirenRyan]

When in the video do they discuss mercy?

[@skbj6782]

@@SirenRyan I listened to the whole episode and Mercy was never brought up, sorry.

[@SirenRyan]

@@skbj6782 she literally was bye

[@Nickelback8469]

I don’t get why people would be upset that T500 streamers are being brought on the podcast. If you’re discussing the health of a patient and want to know the best treatment options you’re going to want to ask the doctors that specialize in the field, not the hospital’s nighttime security guard.

[@tannerbeachy890]

Lol, well said

[@Adieu_tk]

Overwatch isn't a branch of study like doctors would study. The game changes based on the elo you're in, and I think ppl just wanna hear perspectives that speak about the matches they are in

[@beni9129]

Because the majority of the player-base is NOT Top500. The average player is WAY more important when talking about the health of the game because without them, there is no game to play. I hate to break it to you, but if the average player leaves, then the Blizzard devs lose all of that income and stop making updates.

[@Nickelback8469]

@@Adieu_tk As players improve, they should climb. If the characters are well balanced with high skilled players, then lower skilled players will learn to play around with the abilities and numbers given. If the game is balanced around the average player, then you run into problems like Brigitte and Sojourn when they both went multiple patches without significant nerfs. The average players do matter, but when it comes to balance they matter a lot less because if they had a good understanding of the game then they'd be higher ranked.

[@Nickelback8469]

@@beni9129 The average player does matter, but not when it comes to balance. Characters like early Brigitte and Sojourn were left untouched for multiple patches because their win rates in lower elo weren't a problem. Things like player experience matter a lot more for the average player; feelings of satisfaction with the gameplay, progression, etc, but balance is a very fragile thing that if handled by those that don't know the game in detail will easily break at the highest tiers of play.

[@DM-kk8cm]

the whole league items arc and the part where Lemon was saying no one is ever happy with the patch was very strange lol

[@ironman1458]

Also strange to praise TF2 as the ultimate hero shooter gameplay experience while bashing complexity because moba and item exist considering TF2 also has an item system which supposedly has no place in fps games. Also the fact if TF2 is that good just go play that instead. Also also acting like overwatch rejects complexity because its for the sake of the game and not because blizzard wants those casual player dollars

[@ironman1458]

Plus if you want to compare overwatch to mobas, heroes of the storm is right there, equally as simplified as overwatch with no items or complexity and look how well that went. Its almost like Blizzard design philosophy is specifically targeted to casuals and not a matter of removing complexity to make a better game like anybody paid by blizzard loves to act

[@waffen98]

@@ironman1458 TF2 competitively is played nothing like Overwatch as well, as in you are way more spread out on the map and it's not as much about grouping.

[@Bobby_Boozer]

Agreed. And I feel like she was pointing at league being more balanced than OW because there are items to counter champions etc. But what she doesn't realize is that champions are being balanced around the items. So I will use Sylas as an example. The enemy team in higher elo always builds anti heal items against Sylas, but he is still quite strong. But if no one built anti healing then he would've been OP but because everyone builds anti healing items Riot balances Sylas with that in mind. So essentially what I'm saying is that adding items to OW to wouldn't make it more balanced, imo it would make it more complex and actually harder to balance.

[@untoldpaine]

@@Bobby_Boozer this. She is arguing a point that counters her logic and its hilarious. She says in one breath "what are these changes OW devs dont know how to balance." and then says "Lets introduce items and make it way harder to balance." Like what lol Oh yeah people would love seeing Hogs build Titanic Hydra and Warmogs Armor that would go over great lol

[@fonti22]

Lol, I almost thought Lemon and AVRL are gonna have a 1v1 to settle their differences. Again great podcast SVB, thank God the guests are not in one room :D

[@toraow]

I'm sorry, but Lemon just wants to change OW into League and i'm heavily AGAINST that. Having a "customizable" experience like she says is a horrible idea for a game like OW. For a competitve big name FPS Esport with super high level gameplay, league elements like items and personal passives will only drive away more casuals bc of how ridiculously complex it'll become. Additionally, adding those elements would only make balance 1000X HARDER. I don't think Lemon is actually thinking about what she's saying. I can totally feel AVRL's frustration with her 😂☠️☠️☠️

[@cashinowt]

I wish someone had brought up paladins and their system (the talents and cards, not the items, fuck the items). I find it incredibly interesting and not too complex, but the reason why it doesn’t work is because you can hero swap during a game in overwatch

[@samnolastname7818]

An easy, pointless, but ultimately beneficial change they could make to mercy is to make damage that has been boosted count towards their damage on the leader board. This would encourage mercies to blue beam which is the key to getting more impact out of her character. The number of glock mercies I have seen since this stupid pistol change came through is ridiculous 😒

[@Geturgutsoffme]

this ^

[@mrdoomman97]

They just wanna try out the new change.The battle mercys will drop massively in a handful of days

[@Nickelback8469]

Same with Zen’s discord. It’d provide a lot more visual evidence of the character’s value outside of just healing.

[@Harevald]

Good idea. I'm also quite curious how much damage she amplifies over the course of the game. If I had to guess it would be few thousands. Do it to every damage boosting support tbh

[@johnsonspark171]

LOL. Mercy should be fucking DELETED, or at least delete damage boost. No skill hero and ability.

[@toraow]

I need this podcast to have episodes more frequently 😩

[@therealzahyra]

It's every week. That's pretty frequent

[@jarrahcook8124]

ML7 had a video where he encountered a flank Brig in top 500 who was playing essentially (in his words) like a Reddit Lucio, so like with every hero there is definitely unexplored potential.

[@sphenodon2016]

what a chad tbh

[@spencerfrankel414]

That was a huge clap video. The shield bash up to high ground on first point junkertown like WHAAA!?

[@verbal_backflips9493]

Where this video

[@StriderYGO]

Brig is my most played support by far and I am trying to play a "defensive offensive" as hard as I can. I will constantly scout opportunities to attack/flank opponents. The "defensive" part comes from you having to play defensively with whips and shield until you see that gap in the enemy's team. But I will absolutely try to ambush the support if I can make it out of that fight again. Brig has movement and options that people usually do not expect from supports, so I try to abuse that. My goal is not always to kill. When I see a fight commencing, I might go in with the goal of distracting a dps/support or even tank. It makes me shake my head, when people complain about Brig when I do things like that successfully (happens rarely but still). It is easy for Brig to go in, get a few hits in, quickly turn around and throw a heal pack to your ally - you can do that from different directions, not just from the back. The most important thing is that you have an escape plan (corners, walls, teammates, getting them killed...) or confidence in that you being out in the open for a bit too long will be useful for winning. However, I will swap to another hero in certain cases, e.g. playing on a very wide/open map. Example for that is the part on Circuit Royale where you have to push the cart upwards. Brig is playable there still, but it's rough, especially without coordination. Rule of thumb: if you have many ways to take cover, the map is usually a solid Brig map. If the map does not, some teammates can compensate for that by creating that cover for you. Or you swap

[@geraltofrivia4651]

@@StriderYGO you sound like a terrible player. Probably play in silver or bronze on console

[@Unequaledking]

Feels like Avrl has started his villian arch recently and I would just like to say...I'm here for it. Thanks for all of the off-season content for us OWL fans SVB!

[@b23beatz]

Nothing speeds my workday up faster than this podcast

[@woof7611]

I liked when their were time stamps and specific discussions

[@anilogo682]

I will add a timestamp for you: 0:00:00 Mercy discussion ;)

[@darthnick427]

Lemon's got some WHAT WAS SHE COOKING takes this episode.

[@fredericabernkastel8354]

i'm begging - stop letting her cook 😭

[@anarchypanty3412]

@@fredericabernkastel8354 hahahah bruh you wild XD

[@chasefarley8855]

AVRL was so patient with Lemon in this discussion, I don't know how he did it. She came across like a teenager who just wants to argue without having a real point.

[@nikolasweischner3560]

1:06:10 this is entirely correct, I've thought exactly the same. She has no place in Overwatch 2 without 2 tanks to disable or heroes with other core abilities that can harm your team. If she's not canceling an ability she's sorta floating around. You can't just increase her damage either because why wouldn't you just play a dps with more damage? Game completely left her behind. Same with brig in a lot of ways. She's more annoying than an actual threat without the ability to shield bash. She can ram you for extra damage but it has no visceral feel to it anymore. She needs a redesign.

[@Harevald]

Torb got reworked years ago because they realised that hero that's only good for holding stationary defense and needs setup to do it, doesn't belong to fast Overwatch gameplay. If Sombra is outdated then she needs rework again

[@cassiusjoe4907]

Just wanted to say how much I genuinely appreciate these podcasts, SVB. You’re a fantastic host, and the streamers you bring on work so well together, it’s like the Graham Norton Show of Overwatch. Keep at it man!

[@Stupid-yn8tl]

I love the weekly podcasts. It gives me the longform overwatch content i need

[@Naildown55]

AVRL, the man who says "I have a hot take" then says something completely valid and reasonable

[@BridgyP]

The reason the takes are hot is more because they're unpopular. Even when I disagree with what he says, you can't argue he has poor reasoning or is just salty because he's very eloquent in how he explains his points. People seem to dislike the fact that he speaks properly and not using as much internet language as most other guests

[@pngdotjpeg]

I feel like the issue with characters losing their identities is that they don't really get a new one. like, Orisa is built around the javelin, with her "movement ability", ultimate, and alt fire, but then her gun is just a minigun for some reason? and she can become a solid gold wall? why? we know why: it was a different character at first, but there is a muddled identity for the character now. what is orisa?

[@GreenCatDragon]

can we please give credit to the patch team that did the live patch WHILE the servers were on and games were being played. That level of live engineering and herculean server stability is impressive and gives me a sense that they learned from their previous server stability history

[@Dracioarmagia]

The game updated and kicked me out of a comp game right at the start. So I'm a little salty

[@brettedmonds5382]

I love SVB as host man, dude is goated. (“I’ll have to start muting people”) great moment l.

[@marcogeorgoussis5531]

I'm genuinely stunned by lemons comments about introducing customisations and leaning more moba esque. I don't think I've heard anyone asking for that till now lol, that would just make the game worse in every possible way and kill the enjoyment of the game everyone playing now signed up for.

[@winston_best_tank2277]

Why do you think so?

[@Vastspartan]

@@winston_best_tank2277 paladins. Fun but it makes things too complex. I hated picking my abilities. Let me play the character without the customization

[@UngoKast]

I’m a player that wants more moba elements. Now you’ve heard two people lol.

[@Warrior_Meta]

@@UngoKast The game would unfortunately be too complex to play for most to adapt to. Playing mobas aren’t as difficult as people think, it’s just that they want easy, cod esq gameplay after a long day of work.

[@Manorian]

Make that an extra person who agrees with lemon

[@Faceless_one_]

Some one please tell Lemon that Paladins exists and does exactly what she wants

[@friscofatseas5696]

lemon doesnt give a fuck

[@MMrCharles2789130]

ratio

[@revenge3265]

@@MMrCharles2789130 Denied

[@deadhelix]

what’s funny is i started playing ow again because 5v5 made the game flow more like paladins where it isn’t just hide behind barriers and out heal all damage

[@Faceless_one_]

@@deadhelix idk there’s plenty of barriers in paladins, the barriers just aren’t as impactful or strong vs Overwatch. Paladins functionally works very different with its card and talent system that completely change abilities and kits

[@chronosoul1837]

Flats brought up a good point with Orisa's damage falloff range as a really helpful buff to combo finish enemies that that Speared into a wall at Mid-range, instead of enemies having an easy chance to run away, whenever the Orisa player performs that skill shot from range.

[@Harevald]

And make her more spammy and poke oriented in her gameplay outside of spear? She has more range than Cassidy, it's bullshit for a tank. Stop listening to streamers for balance, they just care to buff things they like and dumpster what they don't...

[@tehMothMan]

I know they over analyzed the patch notes to the point were they just straight up missed the most obvious reason why.

[@CZProductions]

@@Harevald No one, including Flats, is saying that the buff is needed or not. They are just pointing out why it actually makes a pretty sizable difference

[@Harevald]

@@CZProductions sure, I think it's pretty easy to tell why more range = a lot better lol. 15 to 25 meters is what 66% increase? It's disgustingly strong change. It changes her damage from short range tank to medium range. She is better than Sigma who is king of poke. I don't understand how devs can push this through. Spear combo at longer ranges is just small thing, her default gameplay improves a ton at medium-long ranges. Rather than being forced to close the gap and brawl, you can hang around and spam like you used to in ow1.

[@onelongwordable]

@@Harevald "...they just care to buff things they like and dumpster things they don't" Name me anyone, anyone that this doesn't describe. I guess you are the most objective player on Earth and you have zero biases yourself right? Not like stinky streamer

[@KrustiBread]

there’s actually a reason why doom still doesn’t have the slow on his slam. spilo, the former coach of london spitfire, discussed how in scrims and in matches the slam slow combined with the meteor strike slow was awful to play against

[@thijmstickman8349]

Sure, but other tank ults in the game are way more powerful then slam + ult. Grav, flux and dragon blade come to mind They had to buff him in so many other more annoying ways to make up for the fact they didn't like the combo

[@in_vas_por8810]

I think most high level Doomfists don't even care about or want the slow. They want his punch cooldown back, or at least everything reverted to pre buffs. The nerfs they just did were not logical.

[@tired9494]

when a tank ult can get kills 😲

[@Vastspartan]

I mean, good? It's difficult to confirm kills using his ultimate

[@Doople]

This is a good point. People should also keep in mind "awful to play against" isn't because it kills you. The way you die can cause you to have less fun. Slow+Meteor=not fun Same can be said for Widow one shot vs getting tracked by Solider. Even if they kill the same amount it's less fun to die to a one-shot for lots of reasons

[@jeffe2267]

LemonKiwi was a good person to have on to show how much the average player fundamentally misunderstands Ovewratch.

[@Eastra3]

Don’t lump all of us average players into a single average.

[@Geturgutsoffme]

w take

[@pingufan1239]

I respectfully have to criticize this episode. Lemon does not have very good takes simply put, the game is very complex and is and doesn’t need items. This is not me being opposed to change, it’s just what she’s asking for is so foreign to what Overwatch is as a core game. Also in regards to Skietsi, I think she is polite and aware, but is only able to contribute when it comes to Mercy, which doesn’t flow well in these 3 hour podcasts of diverse discussion. Avrl has a very good understanding of the game but just may come off as a little strong to some people. I think a lot of viewers aren’t used to people actually debating on stream. This overall was not a debate though, this was honestly just Avrl trying his best to deconstruct Lemon’s terrible takes, no offense to her. It just makes me worried because devs will see this and may think these are the types of people the community wants to speak through.

[@Michael-pn4xu]

I think this was my favorite group up, due to the fact that it was an actual debate. Not 3 hours of agreeing with each other

[@Blehs1234]

Are you a support/tank/dps player?

[@Michael-pn4xu]

@@Blehs1234 I main support

[@Geturgutsoffme]

well yeah but almost all the debates were already clear on who was right from the very beginning and then they just debated a clear answer question that shouldn’t even need to be debated in the first place but i do still get what you mean.

[@AlexTheHorrid]

Did you not watch this episode though? It’s a lot of pointless arguing lol

[@CZProductions]

You're being quite charitable with categorizing this as a debate. An argument would be far more realistic. Very little knowledgeable and polite discourse to be found in this episode.

[@8thVigil]

Funny how my ADHD turns off for these podcasts. I listened to all of the recent episodes in the past few days. Thank you SVB and crew!

[@therealzahyra]

OMG SAAAAME lol but it's not really turning off, we're actually just hyperfocusing on it lmao I always watch stuff at x1.75 speed or x2 speed, but never ever with SVB's podcasts haha

[@SkidMcmarxx]

That's normal. Blue light, and something that requires focus but not a lot of effort makes our brain function like a normal brain should, it's self medication.

[@moleedaboi]

ADHD can't "turn off"

[@CSyoutube5673]

I wanted to add that I 1000% agree wit h Avrl on the closer this game is to an arena shooter - the better. Heroes that shy away from this element are potentially unhealthy for this game.

[@nuclearsimian3281]

Holy shit, 1:28:41, AVRL opening up with the OG FPSs. This is the first time in at least half a decade that I've EVER heard anyone bring up Unreal Tournament and compare it to modern FPS's.

[@Geturgutsoffme]

i didn’t even know what this game was! never ever heard of it but damn tells you he’s been in the fps gaming scene for a long time

[@SixDeadMice]

Brings back memories of playing ut2004 lan parties in highschool. 2004 was a fun year for games, heck that's when we got WoW

[@in_vas_por8810]

Unreal, Quake, Tribes, Kingpin. OG

[@kingplutoxiao1]

He is also 100% correct, Aimbotcalvin literally said Pharah mains are basically Quake players and its true. Overwatch was marketed as an Arena FPS with Dota ults that's it. Just TF2 with ults. The further it got away from this the more people stopped playing.

[@SixDeadMice]

Oh shit tribes, totally forgot about that franchise after the last game flopped. Loved tribes 2 though so unique!

[@JM7900]

I'm glad avrl mentioned they buffed doom in every area true doom mains didn't ask for. Please look into getting quake on the podcast

[@hulkingowl]

It really was the biggest disappointment of OW2 to me. I was SO excited for season 2 until I saw how they massacred Doom

[@Geturgutsoffme]

would be interested to hear what quake or zbra would say on everything especially with out SVB asks his questions

[@V_ii]

Back at it. I'd love to see you get a shorter debate going where you take 3 players from all representing one main role to talk for about an hour. Then another time it would be a different role with three players representing theirs for an hour. It would be interesting to see the views and how biases and influences work in that kind of environment. Possibly even have different players that aren't usually guests. For example on Support you could get Holyshiftkid, Paz, and Aspen or Raylene. Anyway, just a thought. Thanks for more quality content.

[@Bluemansonic]

"Hello and welcome to the Ten Second Talk Show, tonight's guest is Samito!" "NERF BRIG!" "Well that's all the time we have for, g'night!"

[@Harevald]

@@Bluemansonic nerf Brig, remove Moira and Hog, buff Doomfist and Genji, *insert long monologue how Overwatch integrity is ruined because skill isn't rewarded properly and the time is the most important thing for a consumer*, some painful laughs that balance is shit like usual. Have i forgot something? lmao

[@Bluemansonic]

@@Harevald I was referencing an old Family Guy episode but yes spot on Samito impression lol

[@BridgyP]

His original 'debates' on the podcast were 'great role debates' which did exactly what you said in OW1. I think at the moment the community is very focused on support and as a result the tank and DPS debates wouldn't be hugely useful at oresent

[@dudeist_priest]

The great League of Legends debate lol. Good podcast everyone.

[@Geturgutsoffme]

yeah for real kiwi talked like 50% ow 50% league. made no sense at all

[@tremor1001]

@@Geturgutsoffme "Add more items to counter" okay what happens when you swap heros *changes topic back to comparing apples and oranges". Did she play league for a long time? In top ends out of 130 champs like 30 of them are actually played because they are overtuned.. furthermore its oftentimes items that make something thats able to exploit it OP, but nerfing the item hurts the rest of the users, and nerfing the champ may make them too weak without it.. adding more variables almost never helps tuning.

[@WhataBotch]

The great mercy debate

[@thijmstickman8349]

Wow this is the most heated this podcast has ever gotten

[@RPGandFPS]

Skiesti has Mercy Stockholm Syndrome, not understanding how impactful and broken blue beam is just shows how blind she is. Eevee’s idea of a fire rate increase with blue beam is near perfect. TTK w/ beam will still increase, but shots to kill will remain the same. Therefore you’ll still need to hit the same amount of shots. Current form of blue beam leads to Cass 1 tapping tracer, Soj 1 tapping every 200 hp hero. It’s essentially discord orb but everyone on the enemy team is f’d instead of 1 player. Being a hitscan without a pocket vs one with a pocket shows how harmful blue beam is.

[@Doople]

Not sure I would be so harsh to her but good point. One shots always feel bad to die to even if k/d doesn't change and dmg boost contributes to that.

[@-NoNo.]

Might I remind you that she is top 50… I find it hypocritical when someone suggest mercy changes and suddenly there’s a swarm of people bashing them in every conceivable way and it’s always mercy… you are advocating for her one of her 2 only strengths to get nerfed.

[@BossBoos697]

Honestly, both Discord Orb and Blue Beam are bad. I don't know which one is worse if we were to compare. Some would say Blue Beam, and some would say Discord, but both are terrible. Idk man the balance of this game is so fked at the moment

[@RPGandFPS]

@@BossBoos697 I agree both are bad but I believe blue beam is worse

[@RPGandFPS]

@@-NoNo. Blue beam makes balance incredible terrible. Being top 50 her only suggestion was, get rid of rez and don’t have valk disconnect beams when activated. She essential shrugged off what makes mercy+hitscan so broken.

[@DoubleEm08]

I couldn’t disagree with Lemon more. Everyone was super happy in September… 2020? When the meta was somewhat diverse and fast paced. Also, it’s total BS to suggest that making everyone happy is the goal of balance. There will always be unhappy players. The goal is to maximize fun around a skill to reward to value curve. No one likes getting killed by cheese. You can’t make everyone happy. But you can adjust numbers and values to reflect that something less difficult should generally be less effective. Also, in terms of customization, I do think OW should have probably broken down heroes by category pre 5v5. In 6v6 role lock, only allowing one “shield tank” and one “off tank” would have solved a lot of problems.

[@chronosoul1837]

Man. Hearing that mains of other heroes like Mei & Sombra don't have much of an identity sounds nice. As a Sym player since the Sym 1.0 days, I say "Welcome to the club." Though, I am enjoying the buff to her beam, since it finally feels like the damage exists, a little after she is dove by enemies, instead of instantly dying from being rushed.

[@antiprime4665]

lemonkiwi in here with the core-of-the-sun takes

[@GraphiteBlimp27]

I want to also add, as a Zen player I basically played as a flank DPS in OW1 who would keep an orb on teammates as often as possible… in the beta I was destroying because it fit my playstyle. Then they added 225 hp, the kick boop, the kick bonus damage (which Zen melee already basically did bonus damage due to discord) and it felt so OP. Zen is a glass canon, if he still has discord he can’t have mobility OR self sustain. I think the kick is OP still, his boop cannot be baited out and it launches you about as far as Lucio boop, but also does, what is it 45 dmg PLUS discord bonus? Insane. What makes this game good is all the playstyles and some heroes just need to be higher skill. Zen should be hard, one of the highest skill supports. The game is slowing down and he will be better in time. If anything I think eventually the kick will need to be nerfed (either shorter boop distance or bonus damage). My other thought about this is that not everyone should be viable. Sorry, but the standard, all around heroes or “normal” OW comps should be like Rein/Winston, Cassy/Soldier/Tracer, Ana/Lucio/Mercy. We don’t want heroes like Torb/Sym/Sombra/Hog/Brig to be the most powerful. They inherently need to be niche. Doomfist is one of my fav heroes but should not be top meta, he should have like a 40% winrate at best below plat. They are afraid of buffing Rein since he has like 53% winrate in plat… nah IMO Rein would be fine to have like 60% winrate in mid ranks. He should be the premiere tank. You need to actually be high skill to pull off a Doomfist or skill shot tank.

[@kmichisaki7]

More long format please!! The group up gets me through work. Would you be willing to do even 4 to 6 hour casts? I'd be effing doowwwwnnn. Pleeeease more!

[@dangerbeans9639]

this was a lot of fun to listen to. The sheer range of opinions on display was a nice change of pace.

[@sonofanarchy5594]

Lemon’s point on adding skill items is interesting. But I’d say a major difference between OW and LoL is that you can change characters. In LoL it seems like you need skill items to make up for an nonoptimal pick. But in overwatch, you just switch heroes. So for that, I’d say OW2 doesn’t need this component. Maybe for OW3? Idk. I’m liking OW2 and am hoping we don’t need to worry about OW3 for a long long time.

[@p0ison1vy]

could implement a mild form of the pve passive system in a new mode with a draft pick system. there are a lot of people who don't like counter-switching who just want to play their mains, it could be a huge success.

[@GreenCatDragon]

this was the first podcast where i was tired and sleepy from my day while watching. but i didnt want to go to sleep because the takes were spicy and giving me life

[@LampDoesVideogame]

I feel like currently, brig needs to be played in the middle. Throwing out whipshots to proc inspire and deny things, and saving shield bash for peeling forward or backward. She's still way underutilized, I agree there rn. But I have to wonder how much of that came from her literally ruining the game for 3 years?

[@phatthrak]

I also think brig is playable atm; but she is somewhat in a weird spot. Blizzard are probably being very careful with any changes to her to prevent anything even remotely resembling goats to happen again ( like how heavily they nerfed the jq-lucio-brig comp from existing). Anyways, in ow2 now as Ana player, i love playing with a good Brig. We can survive through hell together.

[@AtvrisLantern]

loving the frequencies of the uploads lately, I LOVE THIS PODCAST

[@zexulia]

It doesn't seem like Skiesti seems to understand that playing DPS against a DMG boosted player is super frustrating without a DMG boost yourself. The issue is that it can make a super out of position player unkillable by somewhat average players. In a plat game if one hitscan has a mercy but the other team is running Ana Kiriko, that DPS player with no mercy has to play twice as good as the one with the Mercy to compete just because the mercy exists with little input. While yes the effectiveness of that is varying and it really depends on the matchups, when that scenario exists it is a very frustrating experience that isn't being removed due to the massive backlash to possibly changing her kit.

[@Geturgutsoffme]

funny the mercy player doesn’t understand what her character does to the rest of the players in the game. and yeah you’re completely correct.

[@zexulia]

@@Geturgutsoffme its the same as hog. I'm a GM support player who mostly plays Ana, but i often play Quickplay with friends who aren't as good. My friends range from gold to diamond and even a few silver friends. If i ever touch DPS and one of my friends play mercy and pocket me i do not have to put any attention into the game to kill the entire team on Cassidy or Soldier. And when the enemy team has a hitscan with a pocket, i can't compete even being GM without mirroring the mercy.

[@Geturgutsoffme]

@@zexulia you’re simply spitting the facts. i also play a lot of quickplay with my low ranked friends (bronze-gold) and we have a mercy otp in the group and anytime i get dps i absolutely stomp the other team without even trying on ashe, solider, cass, journ, even some of the flex dps (i also barely touched dps for like the last year and 1/2 of ow1) most the time i tell my friend to not give me blue beam cause it makes the match just boring for everyone on the other team and even my team

[@zexulia]

@@Geturgutsoffme i actively tell my friends to not pocket me because it feels morally wrong to do.

[@Blehs1234]

Not surprised she doesn't have that understanding, after listening to this she may as well have said that she doesn't play any other roles nor does she care for them, and even for the support role she does not really play anyone other then Mercy. She almost has nothing to contribute to the discussion if its not about Mercy. If it is about Mercy its only from the POV of a Mercy player, does not understand nor care how it affects the rest of the game. 90% of what she's said is just trying to defend Mercy. I've literally never seen a Mercy main admit that Mercy is a low-skill character, even though thats what the hero was intended to be.

[@phizix5023]

I completely agree with AVRL. I loved TF2 and grew up on all the arena shooters of the 90s and early 2000s. I preordered OW and built a new PC the second I saw it. I was pretty much like "Holy shit! It's pretty much TF3!" Here I am still playing everyday since 2016 hoping it gets back to its roots of what I feel the game was originally intended to be... A fast-paced, team oriented arena shooter.

[@rexoverwatch]

ok let's start with a fast-paced, team oriented arena shooter.. now we're going to introduce Rein,,,,what now?? is he not a pickable hero? no sure why range attacks are good by melee is not. let me know, thanks!

[@Nynzy]

My issue with his talk is that the Medic does what Mercy does but to an even bigger degree, especially with invuln uber.

[@ljb5163]

Lemon is literally describing Paladins lol

[@BobFudgee]

6000 hours on Mercy alone, fam I dont even think i have 6000 hours on video games period holy shit

[@onelongwordable]

Playing Mercy is a way of life lol

[@BobFudgee]

@@onelongwordable oof

[@TheWackU]

Generally enjoyed this podcast because of the contrasting views. AVRL had some hot takes and I think it sparked a lot of interesting talking points. Not a big fan that the podcast got bogged down with an hour and a half mercy talk when there was an entire balance patch that could’ve been discussed. Would’ve wanted to hear more on the implications of Ram’s buffs going into ranked. It was touched on, but again got drowned out by the +5 mercy shots. Didn’t even touch tracer, barely talked about Doom, and the implications of Ana’s buffs. So that was my big gripe about this podcast. Anyway, I did enjoy the more contrasting viewpoints and would’ve love to see more diverse perspectives on more specific topics. Why not have a debate on the “identity” of OW, I also feel like we can go back on the support, tank, damage, and role debate again.

[@Geturgutsoffme]

i believe this episode was recorded before the patch notes had come out. even before the early look that we saw on flats and emong

[@TheWackU]

@@Geturgutsoffme nope it was recorded on friday. The day after the patch. svb also shows the patch during the video.

[@Blehs1234]

1:37:37 Lemonkiwi suggests moving to 4v4 as a suggestion to move the game forward. AVRL: what would you remove if overwatch went to 4v4? Lemonkiwi: I dunno I havent given serious thought about it Yep, literally sums up all her debating points. Lets just chuck out ideas and not give alot of thought into it. Thank you AVRL for asking your questions to keep her honest.

[@Geturgutsoffme]

yeah what a joke. she just threw out the most random takes with no reasoning behind them but “it works in LoL”

[@sakitoshi]

i really appreciate what lemonkiwi has done for the ow community, but her takes on this podcast were pretty bad. adding items and other complicated things on an already chaotic and fast game is a recipe for disaster, it would overcomplicate the game as skiesti pointed out. however, i do think that if they would add something like that, alternate ultimates would be the way to go, as long as you can somewhat tell what ult to expect.

[@phatthrak]

@@sakitoshi Alternate ultimates; brings back memories of old sym who had the tp or shield gen option. In fact why they never brought another hero with similar mechanic, could be a cool option.

[@exhalete]

Imagine looking forward to working overtime on a weekend and loving it because of this podcast. Thank you!

[@Nynzy]

SVB's point on Zen was pretty spot on with how feast or famine it is. In Silver Diamond (possibly bronze and Masters but I cannae speak to those ranges), Discord + Bastion/Reaper/Hog is just an instant deletion as a tank. Sometimes they even have a Mercy boosting one of them... just so hard to play against in solo queue. However, if you have a flanker who can hunt him down then maybe you have a chance~

[@Snowblind627]

Lemon isn't thinking before she speaks and isn't listening or trying to understand peoples replies to her. Its really damaging to the entire conversation. Super disappointing.

[@DokuDoki]

AVRL failed to sell me on the idea that damage boost and rez is bad, even if Skiesti imo didn't really present strong enough defense arguments. His only notable point is that some heroes are too weak on their own but too powerful if pocketed, which actually has nothing to do with damage boost but rather with Mercy being able to keep up with pretty much any hero in the game, even those with high mobility and evasion. Rez will be in the game as long as there are long range oneshots in the game. I agree with his stance on the mobility creep though, not every hero needs a special reposition button. Zenyatta is the only support that has no ability to directly peel for himself - everyone else, if attacked, can either CC the enemy, run away, or heal themselves. If Zen had the ability to idk, put a harmony orb on himself, he wouldn't feel nearly as helpless.

[@stolensentience]

I agree with all of this.

[@Matthew-jz1tt]

If the devs of the game are having doubts about a ban/draft system in place then they could put it in arcade mode and see what the response is from players.

[@real_Gi]

Mercy is integral to Overwatch as she's essential in bringing in new players as her kit is beginner friendly and high impact, keeping noobs/casuals alive and giving them confidence going forward. Her game is mainly reading the situation and tactically supporting teammates as she can turn the tide in their 1v1s. Besides getting nano, a mercy pocket is the nicest targeted buff a tank/DPS can get. Never left actual meta and a lot of casual games are carried by a good mercy.

[@peskyanteater5267]

Ngl ARVL was cooking this chat and lemonkiwi came off kinda insufferable and not even thinking through her own logic lmao, my opinion of her dipped heavy.

[@TheFourkingluigi]

I think I agree with healers having soft stuns or something to survive a target attack. Not to kill the attacker flat out. But to survive long enough to get a teammate to peel or to stall the attacker diminishing the attackers value.

[@Link2855]

ZEN REWORK IDEA: make it so discord orb isn't a damage amplifier, but it grants life-seal for self and allies who shoot a discorded target. It still maintains his thematic yin/yang duality identity, as well as the core identity of incentivizing target focus, but it removes the damage amp problem. It also grants Zen survivability/escape mid fight without mobility by letting him heal from damaging people who dive him.

[@velociters]

This would never work unless they buffed zens Damage dramatically. Without the extra dmg he gets from disc orb in 1v1s, he would be utterly useless. You should play zen yourself rn:) You will see

[@heathaltom8601]

Avrl, as someone who played Mercy for two years, I want them to change rez. Its original inception was a fun idea at first. It created the most boring gameplay in the metal ranks. I legitimately had 3 mass rez's in one fight with another Mercy. It took 15 minutes before we secured the point and started the clock. I quit playing Mercy because her gameplay got more and more stale. Sitting there damage boosting a target is monotonous. What I loved about playing Mercy was dashing in last moment and saving them as they made it around a corner. Or trying to get the best positioning to force the dps to come hunt for me while maximizing beam efficiency. Pulling some threat away from my tank/dps for half a second while the dps try to focus me. I don't care about what the beam does outside of healing. I have never enjoyed her blue beam. I would prefer it to be a damage reduction to make heros more sustainable during heavy dps. Tanks keeps turning a corner and exploding? Grab Mercy and force the other team to choose other options. The ultimate is lame. And jank. It breaks your current focus target which still exists 4 years after the rework. Why? When does that get fixed?

[@Warrior_Meta]

In a game more about proactivity and aggression more than ever, the problem with brig is that she has a very mundane playstyle that doesn't see very much action outside of certain niche scenarios such as dive or flankers.

[@BookwormSkates]

At 53:00 I agree so much about shield bash and brig's identity. I'm OK in the midfight focusing on my whipshot, but when a reaper or Moira ults right next to me I still bash instinctively and then feel like a fucking MORON because bash no interrupt.

[@faalund]

I respekt Arvl so much for bringing up how good ow is when were closer to the tf2 feel since our core modes are the same as tf2

[@MasterMemo]

I never played tf2 :/ Did they have heroes with wild movement in the vertical direction like the Shimadas, or wild horizontal movement like Tracer, Genji?

[@faalund]

@@MasterMemo yes actually the movement was a core part of that game too

[@DiegoGangWeedBrando]

@@MasterMemo yeah pretty much in fact it’s probably way worse than in ow lmao. Soldier can literally rocket jump halfway across the map and dive bomb enemy medics for a fraction of his hp.

[@calvinbarboza]

If we implemented AVRL’s suggestions, DPS and Tank queue times would be >10h

[@CZProductions]

This was a rough one. Skiesti who admittedly only knows Mercy and has almost nothing of substance to contribute, AVRL that dominates the conversations a bit too hard, and Lemon with some of the most bizarre and off brand takes I've ever heard. This is genuinely the worst episode of the podcast I've seen.

[@lordmew5]

Nah let lemon cook. I've recently gotten into overwatch (literally with overwatch two) and I honestly feel like this game is a lot of fun but extremely shallow by its design philosophy of being more moba than valorant or apex but less moba than paladins or battleborn but the thing is apex and valorant are good games. Overwatch honestly would have failed if it's more moba counterparts didn't fail by themselves. The sad part is Overwatch had every opportunity to find its niche by controlling that power vacuum. It's counterparts died off and they were making a new game anyway.

[@askers_]

Lemon had really dumb trakes and I'm super thankful she'll never be anywhere near the game design meetings

[@CZProductions]

@@askers_ Agreed. I think a lot of us have problems with the game, but the answer isn't to change it into another game entirely. We've seen the game be in great spots balance wise (beta 1 for many of the tanks for example) and we just need to get it back to that point.

[@faiz8840]

Could not agree more. This was like a try not to cringe challenge

[@Vastspartan]

@@askers_ she was at once. An experimental patch. She worked on the tank section....as a support player. The patch was the worst of the experimental tournaments

[@sqpenn]

Mercy is 100% unhealthy for ladder, she’s fine in OWL bc there’s an entire 5 stack of elites that are maximizing their output, and mercy only latches on to output, and doesn’t provide her own. You just follow a dps that’s good, and make them better, make them not have to retreat as much, or have to watch their peeks. And it’s all amplified against teams without coordination or teamwork practice. Which most top level ranked games are. She is the antithesis to every value this game has, and is only put there for the braindeads that don’t understand or want to try to play the same game. Reaping without sowing. Mercy just runs away, and is made for children, she’s “hard” at top lvl just bc u have to play her against ppl who can actually kill her, so u just run and hide harder. And with the dice roll of which dps ur fighting, ladder is even better for her, bc most ppl aren’t one clipping her with tracer, or insta dinking her with widow when she flies.

[@sqpenn]

Mercy is so beloved by most of the player base bc most of the player base is ass. She lacks interplay, she just prays her pocket dies behind a wall💀💀💀

[@sqpenn]

Immortality and Suzu is less annoying and more skillful bc it’s anti death not reverse death. So u actually have to time a cooldown with the game flow and make it count. Something mercy players have never heard of

[@stolensentience]

Keep coping

[@sqpenn]

@@stolensentience Thank you for the input michael, u can go back to hopping on those dps balls now tho, mercy main opinions are just a lot of worthless so ur not needed here☹️👌🤮

[@stolensentience]

@@sqpenn I don’t main mercy or even support. Cope harder tho

[@Bluemansonic]

This season Ive been killed by so many Battle Mercy's AS A TANK AT 100 HEALTH ON POINT IN OVERTIME FOR OVER 2 MINUTES

[@nuclearsimian3281]

No you haven't. This is a troll.

[@Bluemansonic]

@@nuclearsimian3281 not a troll, I'm just in low ELO on Console getting no healing while staying alive on point constantly scrounging for healthpacks/using my healing abilities (Hammond Shields/Sigma Suck/Junker Queen Bleed/Roadhog Gas), even if it's a won fight I still wouldn't get healing unless I mention it in comms or spam "I need healing!"

[@Calameaty]

Pls keep Fredo on, he gives very balanced and thoughtful dialog. As jaded and worn down as he is, still got good takes

[@askers_]

Nah all Freedo does is say "I've always said this" to things he wasn't always saying

[@geraltofrivia4651]

@@askers_ yeah true he does have that little ego ‘I’ve been telling you guys this since overwatch 1!!’ Type shit lol

[@therealzahyra]

Freedo is great but a podcast is good because you hear differend points of views. Having the same person on every episode would be boring. Also probably stressing for Freedo to always have something to talk about

[@brian21282]

Freedo has always said something he hasnt or never said something he has.

[@Bossking1]

What are y’all talking about you can literally watch the “your overwatch” KZbin channel and he does indeed say most of the shit he said he has been saying. Y’all just don’t remember or don’t care lol

[@tremor1001]

First half of the episode: Shit takes from Lemon about adding items or talents to the game and when she gets called out "what happens when you switch" she just changes the subject. Second half of the episode: A Mercy 1 trick desperatley trying to defend her main and everyone being too polite to flat out say "Mercy is just empowering people to hope they can carry you through the game" to not offend her. She even brings it up later on "people in high ranks who play her only play her because its their main" aka... they aren't at the same rank with any other healer. I know theres a different between a High Rank Mercy and bronze.. but fundementally other than flying around you can sit around a wall and boost / heal your best DPS and push things over the edge with a very low skill floor. If the big issue we have with Mercy what i mention above... why don't they make her beam empower and heal beam have a % decrease per second channeled on a hero. This would make her unable to pocket, but make her more pro-active in moving between targets.

[@fatboyphil044]

I don't play mercy because she's too reliant on everyone else to win a game, but lately in plat I'm feeling like support is a lost role and it's ultimately too reliant on everyone else in general. Even when I'm playing ana or Lucio or bap I feel like I'm just hoping my team will carry. It's so much harder to make plays than if I'm on soldier or reaper or even torb!

[@tremor1001]

@@fatboyphil044 I mean... the role is literally "support" so yes you are going to be reliant on your team. Also thats always been the problem with overwatch feeling bad. If you area tank or healer with crazy numbers staying alive for 5 minutes and playing really well but your DPS suck and aren't getting any elims its annoying. If your tanks and healers suck then you can't get off any damage as a DPS.. every role feels annoyingly dependant on your teammates being decent.

[@fatboyphil044]

@@tremor1001 Sure in general I agree. But now ppl like hog only need a kiriko cleanse IF he gets anti'd and can just walk around surviving until he gets a hook and doesn't need a team. Genji or tracer can just flank with or without ult and kill a backline. Reaper can just hide or drop from high ground to ult. If supports don't play those scenarios perfectly then you just lose. The rest of the team only realizes support exists when they go critical and will spam as you're running back from spawn. I'm just biased because of so many games supporting DPS that can't hit a fucking shot and default to blaming "healing" somehow when I'm sacrificing half my kit to keep them from being critical all game.

[@tremor1001]

@@fatboyphil044 You are describing this as if reaper or a DPS always has ult though. Yes... If a reaper can get the flank and ult your backline.. thats kinda the whole point of his ult.. much like Lucio, Zenyattas ults are meant to counter when DPS ults are popped.. thats kinda been the whole MO of the game since OW1 launched. If flanking DPS aren't able to kill healers with ults what exactly are we supposed to do when 2 healers are pumping tanks with 250 armor and 500 hp constantly.. thats the whole point of the game lol.

[@fatboyphil044]

@@tremor1001 if DPS or tanks pop off or make plays you win the game most of the time. If support is playing out of their mind it barely makes a difference than if you just healbot and hope for the best

[@henriquealvarenga9244]

Lemonkiwi has strong Karen vibes

[@TiMonsor]

I was thinking in the same direction. As zen i sont care if discord is gone. Bump his dmg a bit to compensate, give ihm a second heal orb and replace E with some survivability. Speed, 1 sec invol (1 sec trans kinda), free flight valc style (thematically he can fly - let him for 3 sec or so)

[@mossup-]

With the Mercy change, I feel most low elo casual players probably wouldn't notice the extra bullets but I have seen an increase in Battle Mercy's, more so in gold and up but still some more in bronze and silver.

[@SixDeadMice]

This wasn't a debate, it was lemon kiwi finding dumb hills to die on.

[@BridgyP]

Love the podcast SVB but please, please add timestamps back. I wanted to skip the end of the mercy chat because it dragged on for like an hour and wanted to hear about zen.

[@pingufan1239]

If they kept his punch at 3 seconds, but removed the stun on unempowered punch doom would have been fine, along with the other two nerfs. Now the whole flow of the hero is off Edit: I do appreciate the fast balance though, this is my only problem with it

[@treasuredquartz]

Here to show my support for fellow Doom players. They specifically stated they wanted Doomfist to have more Empowered Punches and introduced a bunch of other changes surrounding it that hid nerfs to the Empowered Punch itself. Then this patch nerfed both his normal punch and obtaining Empowered Punch. Making Empowered Punch HARDER to obtain and worse overall than season 1.

[@Geturgutsoffme]

maybe but i feel like without the stun you’d almost never be able to get a solo kill. have to play it completely perfect to kill a full health target. would heavily come down to your doomfist shooting aim imo

[@treasuredquartz]

@@Geturgutsoffme Not sure if you're trolling or what's going on but that's not what someone who plays Doomfist or plays against Doomfist would say. Unempowered Rocket Punch deals a maximum of 80 damage into a wall slam. The target is then stunned for 1/4th of a second. The ability has intentionally been designed to NOT kill solo targets. The stun would NEVER be long enough to finish ANYONE off. If what you are referring to is the Empowered version of Rocket Punch, then you have grievously misread OP's comment.

[@Geturgutsoffme]

@@treasuredquartz i love how you used the word grievously when i miss read 1 word. i thought he said empowered punch. not sure why you’re so pressed i missed 2 letters that COMPLETELY change the meaning behind the comment… all you had to say was “he meant empowered” since you stated i probably misread it which i did -_-

[@nuclearsimian3281]

Doomfist had one of the absolute best movement techniques on one of the shortest cooldowns for any ability of any kind in the whole game. If Doom is too strong, that takes away from every other tank in the game. If he's too weak, then that's bad too. But if he's only being picked because of his ability to maintain very nearly constant uptime and evasion with all abilities, then he needs either an HP nerf, or needs some other nerf to balance that.

[@CSyoutube5673]

Let’s be real. Overwatch was rushed out the door years ago. It was not ready, but corporate greed said ship that fucker anyways. Since then, they’ve been developing Overwatch as it sits on the market.

[@WizardKitty723]

Mercy’s blue beam’s impact is out in perspective when you consider that she essentially does no damage on her own

[@stolensentience]

Yeah some shitty avrl takes ngl

[@kenerb654]

Any ‘damage’ a Mercy could’ve done tho on her own- isn’t comparable to a Sojourn with Mercy on their team but not pocketing them. The DMG boost isn’t Mercy’s DMG itself but the value it brings would be way more than if she had her own actual DMG and didn’t multiply someone else’s - one is guaranteed value vs one where Mercy can just miss her own shots therefore not 100% uptime value. One doesn’t attach a blue beam to Sojo and the Sojo shoot 80% boosted shots and 20% unboosted shots… It’s All boosted 100% of the time and the skill to get the DMG is only Sojo’s, not Mercy’s. Make sense?

[@stolensentience]

@@kenerb654 no

[@kenerb654]

@@stolensentience cool, thanks for your very insightful and worthwhile response that definitely contributed to the conversation 💩

[@stolensentience]

@@kenerb654 you asked if it made sense

[@BAIARJ]

These podcasts are awesome. My favorite Overwatch content since OW2 release. Good job!

[@aidenless3479]

The developers don't seem to have a clear identity for the roles. People in this podcast were suggesting things like "only give CC to supports and tanks" or "always make tank ONLY set other roles up, always make dps BE the follow-up, and make supports always only be the utility and healing that supports the team" and I agree that strict rules like this are what the game needs.

[@marvin5342]

I love It when there is actaul discussion Happening in These podcasts

[@Nickelback8469]

There were a lot of points I didn't like, but I particularly strongly disagree less players = better and with Avrl about Mercy being a problem for the game. Keeping their teammates alive is one of the things supports are supposed to do, and Mercy is less good at that than other supports like Ana or Kiriko. Damage boost is fine on Zen and it's just requires some quick math to figure out the break point changes when blue beam is applied. Though FPS is a big part of Overwatch it isn't the only thing and shouldn't be the only skill rewarded. Going from 6v6 to 5v5 was already a huge hit to a lot of the roster, and continuing down that path to 4v4 or even 3v3 would just continue to squeeze the hero pool towards high damage burst, high mobility, high self sustain characters. Characters like Rein and Mercy are iconic to Overwatch, most casual players or even gamers outside of the game can easily recognize them and identify them as the face of their role. If people want to play Quake, CoD, or TF2, those games still exist, and Overwatch should exist as a balance between those areas of thought while honoring its roots.

[@Geturgutsoffme]

yeah that 4v4 conversation was simply stupid not sure how the “how do you feel about open queue” turned into that.

[@TylerFederico]

I generally like Avrl and think he makes very good points, but all his opinions on supports are fucking trash.

[@Nickelback8469]

@@TylerFederico same, I like Avrl on the podcast and 95% of time I agree with what he’s saying but it was just that one point that irked me

[@Vastspartan]

Ill be honest. Mercy being a pocket hurts the game. Damage boost is an OP gimmick and has been a problem since OW1. The skill level playing against one can change the momentum of the game. If I play against a pocket, I have to play twice as hard not to be killed and dominate the fight. Get rid of damage boost. Switch it with speed shooting. It doesn't give as much advantage keeping it fair

[@reggielet9804]

@@Vastspartan It doesn’t help that most supports have a damage boost ability thrown in and damage boost doesn’t have a cap. I also think damage mitigation and damage weakening abilities that would counteract damage boost could be implemented on new support heroes to keep damage boost in line

[@spacecowboy7193]

The meta in 4v4 death match was 1 tank, 1 support, 2 DPS and it ruled. It’s one reason I was excited for 5v5.

[@TPCvsJDU]

I'm convinced 5v5 has made the top players confused on what the meta should be

[@damonblack1495]

I was a victim of the shield bash not actually shield bashing issue. I thought I was missing or maybe the stun was so small it was hard to tell. Until a reaper dropped and started ulting and I shield bashed into him and he proceeded to kill me and a couple other folks as he kept on ulting. I know this is the future speaking. But I also a low rank player. Brigg is pretty dang good in my elo. It depends on the map and enemy comp. I play her mostly as a flanking support. Similar to what you would see or call a "tiktok Moira". Except I play alongside a flanking dps. Or sometimes I play her as flank protection. The buffs in season 3 are pretty nice too. Just giving a voice for those not in the top 500 or in OWL. Brigg is pretty solid in low ranks. Also, with all the comparison to League... I'm legit surprised no one brought up Paladins which would be a more valid comparison. I think it has an "item shop" or used to. And it's a 5v5 team shooter. Edit: Ok. Idk who Skiesti is. I guess they have a massive following of people or something watching them on the twitch or w/e. Otherwise why are they here? In the big Mercy debate podcast (which was the worst one of these I have ever heard) they made a showing and contributed nothing. Pretty much same thing here. Also spouts nonsense. Go find me 5 Mercy's that have at least 5 hours on the hero in bronze 5 in OW2 that don't blue beam. That shit just isn't true that all they do is yellow beam a tanks ass. Maybe that was true 3 years ago. I've played in B5. As a mid range silver player it resets me to b5 every season and I climb out. They are just being a asshole to low elo players while also talking a lot but not saying much of anything.

[@darthbail191]

If you add items in order to balance OW2, you’re no longer balancing OW2. At the point, you’re balancing OW3.

[@faiz8840]

Yeah that was a dumb take. She looked so pissed that everyone shut her down lmao.

[@p0ison1vy]

her point wasn't that there should literally be a league of legends style item shop in OW, but that in other abililty-based games like LoL, there are systems in place that prevent hard-countering and playstyle inflexibility (items), and tools to mitigate balance shortcomings (like a draft system). I don't see why they couldn't have an experimental mode with a custom passive system, its already in the works for PVE.

[@JeremiahGosdin]

Overwatch is a FPS that has MOBA elements that should be balanced like a fighting game. Fighting games are never perfectly balanced. There will always be tiers. But if you can narrow the difference between the S tier and D tier within each role in Overwatch, you'll find happy metas. And then you just ebb and flow the numbers game, or the occasional ability rework, to suit whatever current meta new content creates. That's the path where on, and it is absolutely fine. It just takes time to find balance. The more you rush it, the more chaos you create, and the further from balance you get.

[@Dracioarmagia]

Honestly the more lemonkiwi talks the less I want her making decisions on ow

[@Vastspartan]

That experimental back in OW1 told the story

[@treasuredquartz]

Add to the tank Passive that they reduce the amount of damage amplified against them. Discord's most valuable target is the enemy tank. Mercy Power Boost and Baptiste Amp wall. Reducing the effect against Tanks makes other Squishies more valuable targets and reinforces the idea that Tanks are supposed to be ignored. Also helps Tanks from exploding.

[@treasuredquartz]

Also rework Mercy. When she attaches her beam to someone it becomes less effective the longer it is attached. So she heals for maybe 65 and it reduces down to 45 over 3s. Just for instance. Her damage boost also reduces from 30% to 10% over 3s. Every time she attaches to someone new it resets. So attaching to someone and flip-floping the beam or attaching then detaching both do not restore her initial beam strength. This can also make Valkyrie more impactful by buffing the healing up to her new max and prevents beam strength decay.

[@calmguru1274]

Damn this first hour feels like svb and avrl fighting with lemonkiwi and skietsi just being silent bottom right lmao. Sounds rough so far.

[@calmguru1274]

Yeah god damn poor skietsi fucking avrl trying to dominate the conversation a little too often. Good job svb trying to moderate as always

[@mutant9137]

@@CouchBard yeah but Lemon was making a good point. Brig is good for who? Like the 50 in owl that play coordinated enough to play her, that's not a good hero for ow

[@Geturgutsoffme]

@@mutant9137 honestly this was one of her few takes that actually made sense but the avrl and svb point was she is good but in a coordinated communication team. both sides were right.

[@Geturgutsoffme]

@@calmguru1274 i do agree but i mean to be fair kiwi was saying some absolutely WILD things. in the end they both ended up raising their voices talking over each other and svb. was pretty annoying considering the topic should not have even been in the discussion to begin with. maybe that’s what avrl was defending so hard

[@agranite9776]

@@mutant9137 I play her occasionally and win my games, but never as the starting support. I switch to her after I see both team comp and how both team plays. Zen, Ana, and Kiriko will always be my main support.

[@Midnight_Premiere]

Mercy blue beam is more unhealthy than Zen orb because blue beam has 100% synergy with the teammate using it while Zen discord has a like 50% effectiveness unless Zen can communicate and teammates can receive that communication (listen). I enjoy playing Mercy but she could use a power redistribution

[@idolhell1500]

57:22 overwatch 2 definitely outpaces res 100% agree even when i play in plat-gold lobbies i almost never get the opportunity to res safely

[@Kanggaxx]

Tell your dps to take more distance and high ground. That way you can res from behind a wall.

[@idolhell1500]

@@Kanggaxx that doesn’t help the timing and pace of the game and by the time you’re done ressing there’s a high chance of there being another pick happening so why go for a res and risk getting rolled up on by a sojourn sliding in and one shotting you when you can just not go for the res and keep yourself alive and hope to win the 4v5

[@sakitoshi]

whenever i see a mercy trying to res, i immediately throw healing at her and have suzu/lamp/heal-nade ready so she can complete it. but not everyone does that.

[@Midnight_Premiere]

I think it would be great to balance in a way where players who use heros that are more technically difficult to use get rewarded for that with being more meta as a reward for skill for example Bap should have a higher ceiling than Moira. That would be fair in that if you can have the skill to pull off a difficult task you deserve a higher rank or more impactful. This would make different meta at lower rank because it might be better to choose Torb rather than Genji because Torbs turret doesn't miss however make it so when Genji does skillful task like hitting his shots or headshots etc he does more damage than a torb

[@-Zax-]

I totaly agree with AVRL, that mercy buff definitely helps people in low ranks and you have to compenstae a lot more for others there with dmg even as mercy.

[@kingderk]

Bro you legit aren't going to climb with that good luck trying that even in high silver low gold your whole team will die. The buff is pointless and encourages bad play.

[@-Zax-]

@@kingderk except i did in past like 3x times. If you play in low ranks, you often have to compensate for others who are not capable to win duels even with your beam on them.

[@kingderk]

@SuperJavurek Bro you climbed because of your awareness not because of your pistol lmao. You really don't understand how bad it is to use.

[@-Zax-]

@@kingderk Defintely not true, I climbing because of both. Kills by pistol helped me to win games I would not win with mercy without it. Just because you cant use pistol well doesnt mean its bad.

[@cinemacrayne4933]

I think it would be beneficial if knowledgeable players like guests on this podcast operated like a parlimentary shadow cabinet. You could compile a document of proposed balance and kit changes. These players can make arguments and inform the broader overwatch player base before allowing them to vote on the shadow balance changes. Maybe a more concrete alternative vision could help guide the balance team, idk just an idea.

[@utk8718]

Its funny how avrl is basically saying if you play the game perfectly and have a perfect 5 stack teammates then brig is good like bruh wtf ? You yourself said even at high ranks people are not that co-ordinated to make brig work which basically means she needs too much input to bring out any decent value.

[@mutant9137]

Thank you!! What is his point that brig is a viable character for the 7 people in owl who are coordinated to play her in a game with millions of players?

[@stolensentience]

Yeah just delete her

[@Geturgutsoffme]

think you completely missed the point. brig is good in a coordinated team that USES communication. the biggest problem is randoms who aren’t even in vc. i play brig and when i do i make tons of callouts. don’t play brig when you have a comp of heros who go off on their own.

[@mayitakeyourhatsir8632]

I like how when I first heard AVRL's voice my mind went to "Hey this is that OWL commentator I'd hear talk at 4:30 am while I try to go to sleep"

[@hartyewh1]

The LoL comparison brought to mind when we have the PvE leveling we could have a mode where you get exp and CS style use the points while respawning. Doesn't sound as bad as I would have assumed before thinking about it.