The Great March Debate feat. Flats, Samito & Freedo

[@GroupUp]

This episode was recorded on 1st March February 2024. Podcast links below! If you're enjoying this content, why not let SVB know on his stream (www.twitch.tv/svb_ ) or check out his second channel The Soak (youtube.com/@TheSoak ) where he does movie, TV & anime breakdowns! The best way to support the podcast is still www.patreon.com/svb Soundcloud: soundcloud.com/ow_svb/the-great-march-debate-2 Spotify: open.spotify.com/show/6sRWutKTc0gnWuguo62Vpa Apple Podcasts: podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/svbs-group-up/id1490256265

[@TheButtDr]

damn, i wanted to see the clip that flats linked.

[@NathanNGM]

Flats analogy of tanks being the quarterback that can't throw and can only hand off the football is absolutely beautiful. Especially the part where you're trying to hand off the ball and you're running back is not there at all...

[@christopherripley5081]

Wouldn’t tank be the O and D line and support is the qb

[@SuperBlitzKing]

Bro I died of laughter because I felt his pain

[@josephreynolds2401]

​@@christopherripley5081 The tank holds the ball first in this analogy. Overwatch fights are centered around the tank. If your tank dies and the other tank is being propped up on point by two teammates, your team lost the fight. If your tank hasn't traded up enough value before he dies and no point progress is made, that's like getting sacked in football. And Like in football, that loss snowballs. 1st-4th downs is analogous to Ultimate economy. More first downs are better for your team. More ult charge means your team gets better timing plays and opportunities in general. 4th down at 2 minutes is like your last chance, hail Mary, ultimates gimped on an overtime fight. You can WIN that fight, you're just sort of pushed against the wall.

[@absolute-xero7502]

I nearly spit out my spaghetti when Freedo said "alot of players can't properly argue for 6v6 because they aren't educated enough" (I'm paraphrasing). No amount of credentials will make your argument correct if it isn't. A middle schooler can make an adult with 2 masters degrees look stupid if the adult is saying the earth is flat. Freedo's arguments were so easy to debunk it was honestly just sad to watch the man suffer what is clearly just sunk cost.

[@thedofflin]

Quarterback is such a great analogy for tanking. You can only ever be as a good as your team sets you up to be. If no one is there to receive the ball, or to enable you to survive a couple seconds longer, you will lose every play.

[@chrisjackson2821]

I hope someone finds a replay from a game where the quarterback goes to hand it off and the running back/full back run a different play and run away from it hahaha but yeah great analogy

[@JakoMacro]

That’s every position tho. If you are 3 skill ranks above the lobby you will carry no matter the role. If you are equal rank to the lobby, it’s up to God who gets the better team. I don’t think it’s a tank problem exclusively

[@joshuabarnes1486]

⁠@@chrisjackson2821an easier analogy would be the RB fumbling, WR dropping a ball or running a route wrong, blocker letting a defender through.

[@Mikuroko69]

​​​@@JakoMacro every role goes through it, but in many players eyes myself included, tanks are held back the most. If they have a widow on Havana and you're on tank, You're just hoping your team can take care of it so you can continue to make plays on the rest of the team but if she's not contested you have to swap to something like winton/dva to dive her even if you were on a pick that could've dealt with majority of the team. Hog and ana is another example, if you're hog, you just have to hope your Kiri is there to cleanse when you're purple otherwise they will lay down everything on you. If you're rein/ram/JQ, youre hoping you got a Lucio that would help speed you in and out of situations. If you're ball you'll be hoping your tracer/sombra is there to also dive that zen in the back. List goes on. Can you do it alone sometimes? Sure, these are just easy examples to pull out and show why tank is viewed as the "quarterback" Again it happens for all roles but with tank it's more apparent than the others.

[@JakoMacro]

@@Mikuroko69 I agree with your sentiment. I guess the point I was trying to make was that every role has their burdens in one way or another. It’s not like tank makes or breaks the game in every game, sometimes I win even with a useless tank. That being said, tank is the team anchor and synergies are built around this player more or less so I would agree that they bare the majority of the team’s utilizable power/control on a map.

[@ginpachi1]

The Sun slowly creeping up on Flats throughout the video, makes me giggle 😂

[@DGooGun]

Damn Flats and Samito was cooking here.

[@peskyanteater5267]

Freedo really said watch out guys I took an essentials of debate course that one time in undergrad lmaoooo

[@nashovoscallando1098]

You ever argued with an English major(it's not fun)

[@its_lucky2526]

@@nashovoscallando1098why not

[@yoku_UwU]

@@its_lucky2526 people who major in english can sometimes weaponize their knowledge of the technicalities of the english language to patronize you and pick apart the details of your use of language to avoid actually discussing the topic at hand. For example, freedo's habit of breaking into explainations of "logical fallacies" and all that stuff he likes to talk about instead of actually talking about overwatch.

[@shooterprime582]

1:41:00 - 1:41:15 Flats just said what i have been saying about overwatch 2 since it released, proper 6v6 never got the chance like 5v5 has, and it’s a shame that the devs won’t swallow their pride and admit that maybe they were wrong about how to format the game 😤

[@bambampewpew32]

WTF HE SAID THAT?? HE FINALLY REALIZED?? Lmfao jokes aside I'm glad we're finally coming around to this

[@heiko2255]

6v6 RoleQ got like 5 Months of "okayish" balance and then they completly dipped for OW2 5v5 has had 18 Months of balance and to me, it only got worse and worse each time they try to balance 6v6 should definetly be tried again

[@endless_del]

the balance we see is not the only balancing that's being done. there was definitely internal balance testing done before they ever decided to remove an entire half of one role. that is a huge change that was not done without any thought put behind it. the most motivating factor was likely queue times, but i agree with freedo that that's really the only important metric at the end of the day. so long as we have role lock, queue times need to be kept under control and it is OBVIOUS to anyone who played in any rank at any point in OW1 that tank was by far the least popular role, even before role lock was implemented. role lock just showed exactly how bad the disparity was and made it extremely obvious that at no point whatsoever would 1/3 of the player base willingly play tank. so now we have a situation where the roles are evenly distributed based on player interest (with tank still having the fastest queues most of the time-- but now that might be due to balance and some tanks' playstyles being dead like samito mentioned with ball and hog. i will also interject dva as having a significant playstyle change, although she is still playable and decent just bc her design is very versatile) but 1 role has the burden of essentially 2 players because not all that much has changed outside of the role being cut in half. i think the current patch has some potential to be good for tanks if their passive is tweaked to be a %age reduction to all status effects. and then individual heroes can be balanced from there because the issue with certain abilities isn't that they're necessarily unhealthy for the game or broken as a concept, but that they're too effective against tanks so long as there's only one of them on the playing field.

[@domothebro2435]

​@@endless_delinternal testing can never be equal to the true playerbase experience though

[@endless_del]

@domothebro2435 that's a good point! to be clear, i'm not opposed to 6v6 returning, but i think it's better to be realistic about the distribution of roles across the playerbase. tank has always been historically the least played role and as i said in my comment, queue times are the most important metric IF role lock is to remain. however i also don't think 6v6 will ever work without role lock so we'll just be back to square one. i think it's probably a good idea for the devs to really examine the format changes that have been implemented over the course of OW's history. hero limits was obviously a good format change, but things like role lock and 5v5 could be something they could consider rolling back. we're currently kind of chasing our tails with the format changes, similar to the powercreep nightmare they recently (seemingly) fixed with the current patch. adding a new thing to the format, like bans/drafts, i don't think is a good idea. but reverting OR tweaking previous changes is their best option, imo. "preferred" role lock is something i think could work for 5v5, but would no doubt be a nightmare on the matchmaking side of things. properly balanced open queue is also a good option. going back to 6v6 should be a last resort because it would require a lot more work and more tank players than we currently have.

[@Twilight.Princess]

Sam is just simply more correct than Freedo on the 5v5 vs 6v6 debate. And yeah everyone uses the argument of double shield, goats, long queue times to say 5v5 is better but COMPLETELY ignore that they literally abandoned the game for years. Oh, and 5v5 is F2P and 6v6 wasn’t. That alone you can’t use queue times.

[@secondmoto381]

This exactly.

[@itsjoxius]

Yep, I agree. And freedo saying evidence showed 6v6 was counter swap just as bad, but then flats also had to address role que didn’t have enough support to cook.

[@georgealvarez1195]

Unless you are gonna be fine with getting no new balance updates and no new content for 1-2 years, which would be the amount of time blizzard would need to bring back 6v6 amd thats if everything goes perfect and they have no issues, please STFU about it. You guys are asking for the most unrealistic shit possible.

[@leojaeger4462]

this is probably the most insane argument i have seen for 5v5. The health values for the tanks would just be made into what they are in open queue, and then damage values and cds can be adjusted without too much difficulty provided anyone on the dev team has a pulse and can tie their shoes without help. If you're arguing that they are so incompetent that doing even that is a herculean task, there might be merit to your point. If not..... @@georgealvarez1195

[@Waywurd08]

Nobody talks about how no new tanks were added to the game since ball, I think that the OW2 heroes would be arguably more fun in 6v6. Even characters like lifeweaver would be more fun if you didn’t have to sacrifice space with his grip

[@xRichieeex]

Freedo was really hard to listen to here. Are we even playing the same game? And his assumptions about the type of people and players that play the game completely misses the mark. I used to like his content back in OW1, but he's really fallen off.

[@standardnerds3435]

I thought the exact same thing, I loved his "I speak for the plats" takes in OW1 but since OW2 came out he has been so wrong on literally everything

[@Mickeyshere]

@@standardnerds3435he was spitting with the moira rant

[@blacksheep4021]

My personal main reason for 6v6 is just fun. Being the only tank is a lot of pressure and you deal with a lot of toxicity. You get forced off of the heroes you enjoy pretty much every single match and have to learn multiple characters to be able to queue the role effectively. Just not fun if you go into a game because you enjoy playing a certain character and spent countless hours on them and even in quickplay the entire enemy team consistently counterswaps you to the point of where you cannot do anything. Takes control from the player and the enemy team decides how you end up playing the game. Not surprising that it's the least popular role and i don't think balancing could fix these issues. Been a tank main since 2016 and am now flexing to the other roles. Support and dps feel great in 5v5 but i don't think those roles would feel much worse in 6v6 either. EDIT: 6v6 playtest is out i am having a BLAST and finally back to being a tank main. Tank currently (atleast in my lobbies) has a significantly higher queue time than dps and dps is the "fill" role if you select all roles so there are a LOT of people queuing tank. Dps and supp both feel fine with supp having to heal more. A friend who played only dps so far says he feels no difference to 5v5 but still prefers queuing 6v6. 6v6 is the way to go imo

[@bambampewpew32]

EXACTLY!!! I DON'T CARE IF 5V5 IS "more open" I JUST WANT MORE FUN

[@reginozarate4601]

My same experience. I use to consider myself a tank main. It is my least played role in 5v5 and I don't think I've enjoyed a single second of it.

[@lruddy8820]

i just miss tank duos being the only tank feels so lonely lol also two tanks makes more tanks viable

[@lukiv3]

even if 6v6 is more fun basically it cant happen, it will need complete re-balance of game and biggest problem with that is resources. No one can ask game price again for an old game, it's simply impossible from business standpoint, and remeber those game are made to make money.

[@jonnybravo473]

@@lukiv3you’re just wrong. Resources 😝 all it would take is a patch in the same vein season 9s

[@-.Outlaw.-]

Why are they not talking about the fact that queue times were so lopsided due to the dps role having way more heroes and content? Like do we seriously think that queue times would still be as bad for tank after Junker queen, Ram, and Mauga were added? And doomfist was swapped, AND Orisa was reworked. Like be fr

[@The_Wolf_Fang]

I was thinking the same shit. Freedo trying to hard to be right

[@defaultdan7923]

i feel like that's a bit of a reductive way of looking at it. it was definitely a contributing factor, but even now, dps is THE single most queued role after every other role has gotten more content. the gameplay loop in addition to the format has an effect on queue times, and open queue is always going to be the fastest way to play.

[@-.Outlaw.-]

@@defaultdan7923 dps only just barely became the most played role again this season with the passive change (at least in high rank idk about low rank). Dps and tank queues were like 1-2 minutes and support was 5-7 because support just felt so much more impactful than dps, and tank just felt like you were getting railed by cooldowns all game. I’m almost 100% certain if you got rid of passives, reverted the health changes, nerfed support across the board (not nuke them but nerf them to be more in line with dps), and returned the game to the 6 v 6 format with the new brawly tanks, and kept a steady stream of heroes coming in the queue times wouldn’t be so shit. The problem is for most of OW1s life span tanks didn’t get anything new or exciting and when they did it was something that helped make an oppressive meta, that then stayed for months and months to even a year because the devs abandoned the game. People under estimate the number of one tricks in the fan base, you close the gap between the number of tanks and dps and the queue times would be brought down substantially.

[@duel2803]

nobody cares that the dps have more hero’s people play it because it’s fun and you feel like you have impact on tank you don’t feel it as much

[@CarlosCruz-bu1kd]

I think it’s a factor that led to the HUGE difference in queue times, but I think to this day dps is still the most popular role, just not by as wide of a margin when there was a gap in content between the rolls.

[@lexington.]

Freedo's argument is based off his imagination that 95% of the playerbase could only play with Reinhardt? And he thinks he's the one basing his opinion off of facts.. he's delusionally arrogant.

[@jacobkelly1653]

Sometimes i wonder if freedo plays the game or if he just watches others play and talks about it

[@Bacchus325]

He's actually said multiple times on the podcast that he doesn't really play much or hasn't played in weeks. Idk why he's even on here half the time.

[@fullnelson4986]

So its funny that he says tank is the best role when he doesn't even play it and has flats and sam telling him its miserable but noooo its the best according to him😂🤷🏾 ​@FantaticTaco325

[@oBlackIceo]

Bro freedo said “this argument is *easily* won with facts and evidence” and then proceeded to not give any evidence or facts

[@ofmoosenmen]

Ya see... Anecdotal evidence is the best evidence... And that my friend, is a fact!

[@20ecupirate13]

And also said the majority of the player base are called school aged with an inability to argue effectively

[@Nayutune]

Also accused others of not using "data" to prove their point, but then also ran with "from my memory and I think factually" seconds after.

[@why8642]

They literally went to 5v5 because there were a lack of willing tank players, those are the facts

[@shane3744]

You weren't listening then. He clearly pointed to queue times for non-tank roles after role queue, lack of tank players creating unbalanced experiences in open queue, prevalence of oppressive metas due to tank synergies, and the difficulty of having balanced lobbies due to the tank skill gap being much more severe than other roles.

[@Waywurd08]

Samito is clearly more passionate about this game and knows what makes it good. Everything he says aligns with feelings I’ve had or misunderstand about Overwatch. It’s rewarding to grind character with a lot of depth. It’s fun to synergize with other characters and ults like in 6v6. A game with more depth is way better than the counter swap meta. I think open queue with role lock inside the match at 222 would also fix the game. It would also solve queue times.

[@sebastianrodriguez8992]

Honestly they really should do a quick play hacked that adds 6v6 and see how many people like it That way they can use their dumb new system and actually test it for a weekend so we can see just how good it is with the new format and tanks

[@REZEMBLENZ]

if they actually try to make it balanced with 6v6 hacked everyone will play it@@sebastianrodriguez8992

[@Glizzyman]

@@sebastianrodriguez8992 or atleast 5v5 open que with more health pool but only 2 of each role max, seems pretty fair to me or 6vs6 open que but 3 max for one role

[@Waywurd08]

@@sebastianrodriguez8992 they should just do ANYTHING to try 6v6 it’s not just nostalgia that makes us miss it. We miss OVERWATCH, not this watered down custom game that 5v5 has created

[@Real_MisterSir]

Freedo doesn't seem to realize what it means to move a goalpost, and what it means to misunderstand the message of the goalpost entirely. If you don't understand what the goalpost even stands for, then obviously every argument will look like the post is moving, because you're fundamentally misquoting and misjudging its purpose and intent. It's true that goalposts need to be consistent and irevokable unless world view shattering contrary evidence is presented. However, I don't see Sam making any hard goalposts that have yet to be disproven as unworthy posts to plant. All I've seen is Freedo misjudge and misquote those posts and in his futile attempt to discredit them, ends up resorting to attempt to discredit the idea of even planting goalposts, rather than arguing against the goalposts.

[@SlipperySnake321]

Big gaslighting. If I am right then I told you so, if I was wrong then you misunderstood my intent. Sam constantly makes categorical claims which is why he is so entertaining. No one wants to hear a bunch of caveats and carefully considered balance notes. The issue here was that instead of saying he was wrong about Roadhog (like he did quite easily for Mauga early in the show) he made a lame excuse about how he meant just that specific Roadhog play style. Freedo was all over the place despite his notes but let's be honest, everyone on this cast puts down a bunch of hard goalposts in the form of hot takes. Let's not pretend otherwise.

[@Real_MisterSir]

@@SlipperySnake321 Ah yes the gaslighting card. The fit-all card to get out of jail easier than a Kiriko with tp and cleanse. Example: Sam said Hog wasn't made for 5v5 and never will fit into 5v5. Freedo later counters with "you set a goalpost, don't do that! Just see how Hog was viable!". The real issue is that Freedo misjudges what the goalpost is, and thinks viability = healthy/fit for 5v5. Hog was viable because he was busted, that's the only way he'll ever be viable in 5v5 unless his kit is majorly changed. Sam was right the whole time, yet got accused for changing goalposts when Freedo blatantly misjudged his points over and over and argued a non-statement. Freedo was way too caught up in the fact that a goalpost was set, rather than what the goalpost actually stands for. Aka arguing the reason for the point, rather than the point itself. Something one should never do in an intellectual debate. Call it gaslighting if you will, I dare you to watch the podcast again and actually this time listen and take notes of what each person says. Freedo continuously misjudges easily understood points and claims the goalposts to be moving whenever a counter argument is raised. Yes Sam sets a lot of goalposts, but he very rarely- if ever move them without accepting he was wrong (which he does at times).

[@SlipperySnake321]

@@Real_MisterSirI believe in this case we just disagree on the substance. I agree with all of your points except where you conclude Sam was right. I think in fact he STILL isn't right. I think the reason Freedo is claiming the goalposts moved here is because Sam's statement seems unfalsifiable. When hog is meta that isn't evidence he was wrong just that hog was busted. On the other hand when he isn't meta the argument is clearly correct. If there is no evidence that can prove your prediction wrong there isn't much power in that prediction. Just on a larger note I wanted to point out that SVB is the only one on the cast with watchable streams/videos anymore because of the general problem Freedo is ironically talking about. Overwatch content as become a sea of clickbait bullshit content. It's sad because you can tell the cast draws the line later in the episode at unranked to GM, a prime example of clickbait bullshit content. The ecosystem has become so inundated with it that just to compete you need to make a 'game's dead' or 'we're so back' video after every patch. Just like 'education' is the dumb excuse for unranked to GM pubstomping; listening to the audience or engagement is the excuse for clickbait bullshit content. Freedo as part of the problem can be upset at other people for just going fully cynically into what gets clicks but he should take some responsibility as well.

[@thebox5001]

@@SlipperySnake321 "When hog is meta that isn't evidence he was wrong just that hog was busted. On the other hand when he isn't meta the argument is clearly correct. " Hogs play style in 6v6 was that he could flank, kill a squishy, and then get back to his team. With only one tank hog has to stay in the front line to keep the enemy tank in check, which he is terrible at doing unless he is buffed to the point of being busted. This is what your not understanding, in 5v5 every tank has to be a frontline tank and that takes away the uniqueness of tanks like hog and ball.

[@reproxity]

@@SlipperySnake321you’re doing what freedo was doing to Sam and what you’re doing to this guy you’re commenting to, tbf tho he incorrectly stated salutes point, the misunderstanding comes where as freedo thinks Sam says HOG won’t work, and Sam corrects him saying that his belief if that hogs ORIGINAL plays tile can’t work in 5v5 and HE IS RIGHT that’s is what he’s arguing he’s right about he even says he doesn’t say huh wouldn’t be good it’s just his playstyle would have to change, that’s what’s he’s correct about and he’s annoyed cause everyone is misunderstanding him and playing telephone and handing off the wrong message, freedo attacks him multiple times on stuff that he wasn’t advocating for or said, that’s the annoying part. Really people need to start differently

[@emilegarcia2369]

Holy shit, never thought Id think Samito would say anything nice about mercy in 2024 yet here we are HAHAHA

[@Twilight.Princess]

*cough* peen influence *cough*

[@thenastyfridge]

Do you have a timestamp for me? I have yet to watch the whole thing 😅

[@lickilicky5288]

@@thenastyfridge44:35 the argument starts at that leads to him saying that

[@onceright4406]

@@thenastyfridgeAt like 44:45 something like that

[@emilegarcia2369]

@@thenastyfridge like 44"44ish? Haha

[@Tsunder623]

Tank is the strongest role? Freedo wtf are you talking about

[@illik4018]

Freedo came out swinging at Sami. Flats says he would like to see 6v6 mode. Suddenly freedo steps back and he would like others with more humility. Thanks Sami for showing humility and not asking others for it...

[@sortascouseace]

I cannot believe freedo tried to encourage flats to do unranked to gm, good on flats for sticking to his guns and calling him right out, saying hes isnt going to do it because stomping low ranks is immoral. (Watched the whole livestream if you were wondering)

[@riviera7775]

When s this can u time stamp

[@sortascouseace]

​@@riviera7775approx 3:05:35

[@sortascouseace]

@@riviera7775 3:05:35

[@riviera7775]

@@sortascouseacethanks you the best

[@riviera7775]

@@sortascouseace freedo is so annoying…..I want to punch….

[@scalamasta]

I am glad Sam is still around. He has been cooking on the recent pods on here. Good stuff

[@DokutahNiko]

Don't ever let Freedo cook again

[@Trocify225]

😂😂😂

[@ncascini01]

Omg, I forgot about the priority pass.

[@lindsayantes160]

Saaaame. 😂

[@dergr7283]

Flats has really great thoughts on the state of Tanks and he really has predicted a lot of what’s has happened over the course of OW2 for the role. He’s absolutely right about it not being sustainable role. For the health of the game what appeal is there to be a Tank main other than sunk cost? What new player in their right mind would willingly become a Tank main? I really wish he could take a step back from his content cycle and make a thoughtful video on the subject. Like Seagull’s state of Overwatch and recently Eskay’s state of comp video. Videos like that really invoke change. It’s so sad that the devs haven’t addressed counter swapping.

[@Axis0504]

>sit down to play overwatch >feel like playing tank today so you queue for it >absolutely miserable experience for 3-4 games >uncheck tank queue and keep playing This is basically my routine while playing overwatch nowadays.

[@Jereonn]

Tank is kind of a double edged sword though. It can be so much fun but also be so god damn miserable. As a tank u just need to learn the gg go next mentality to keep your sanity checked😂

[@SBBValianT]

I would recommend chipsa videos too. To you. He made 3 or 4 state of game videos this past month alone and he also has a few good takes.

[@bambampewpew32]

​@@Jereonn that's true for any role if you enjoy the role though lmao

[@bambampewpew32]

​@@SBBValianT YEAH he has cool takes about game design and fun

[@x100bullets]

Yay topic/chapter breaks this time, you the man SVB, thanks for always delivering great discussions

[@milo4075]

Why would i try and be the best rein player just for a person to play orisa with no knowledge to beat me? Why should I play tank role when everybody on the field can counter swap me and keep me from playing the game? Just like what flats said the pressure on 1 person and the toxicity on the team has to get flamed is the weakest role just these devs are idotic

[@KaiDub24]

Never thought I’d see the day when Sam felt like a voice of reason compared to someone else. Freedo was so cringe in this…

[@inahacim6582]

Freedo got destroyed. Im tired of this guy insisting tank is fun just because he likes the role. Tank is so ass. And freedo is wrong. You can have a solo tank meta and still have counterswapping tanks. Because not everyone wants to be meta slaves and they just prefer to play tanks they like regardless of meta, only to get counter swapped.

[@3wickedwicks]

Freedo has officially lost it man

[@praetorianplays]

I couldn't disagree more with Freedo. OW1 you could feel the skill gap. With 5v5, its not about skill.

[@Tyeus22]

Freedo on his Joker arc rn. It's so weird to me cuz I spent the last half a year strongly disliking the direction of Sam's content and general attitude on the game and now he's magically the calm voice of reason and I'm like ???

[@bambampewpew32]

LMAO he was (almost) always speaking the truth, just wasn't saying it the best way he could, plus most people hadn't stopped coping yet lol

[@rinshaolin94]

He’s always been right

[@Libreom]

I didn’t like Sam very much at first, partly because I was a biased support enjoyer early OW2 (I’m a tank main at heart honor and glory) but once it became apparent to me he just has a lot of passion and soul, I began to like him. plus he rages a lot and I can relate to that heavily lol.

[@kulbabus]

Samito is genuinely passionate about the game's health and understands it so deeply.

[@jonashansen8907]

Everytime i've tried to watch Samitos live stream, he has a toxic behavior and insults his teammates. I don't believe any player should act that way and especially not an OW-influencer. No respect for him and his "content"

[@Diego-lt6xi]

One thing about what Freedo is saying that puts me off is that he seems very adamant that people shouldn't speak in absolutes but also seems to think that he has the exact knowledge of why tank is/was the way that it is/was. Also trying to call out Samito on his "hardline" take on immortality defining the game when in order to make that less of an issue they had to... overhaul the entire game. That's a bit weird to be honest.

[@trevitone1111]

Did Freedo just compare judging overwatch to Shakespeare?

[@Backfired]

I think 6v6 would be more fun over balanced. But it would be easier to balance certain meta synergies that become oppressive. 5v5 seems to be giga-op, or trash, give or take. In ow2 almost all ranks i've seen since launch are sub 1min tank. Miserable experience. Or 4+min queue for dps/supp.

[@heiko2255]

6v6 defientetly is easier to balance because you dont have to make 12+ Tanks equally strong, like said in this Podcast Counterswaps will always exist. The Gap between Weakest and Strongest Hero in this season is as big as it never was before in OW, some heroes legit are not pickable while others provide insane value for the bare minimum

[@thedofflin]

Love seeing a proper good faith debate between Freedo and Samito. I think they both agree that having only one tank aggravates the counterswapping issues, and that balance cannot solve counterswapping. What Freedo follows that up with, though, is that he's willing to compromise and accept counterswapping on some level to avoid the issues of 6v6 (mainly queue times, but also oppressive tank synergies - which I think is not mutually exclusive with oppressive 6v6 support synergies. Also note that tank synergies were always more oppressive for metal ranks). Freedo then points to ideas the devs are working on to mitigate the value of counterswapping. Samito responds that he's unwilling to compromise on counterswapping, he wants tanks to always have options and it shouldn't be about what you play, but how you play that matters. It seems that the 5v5/6v6 debate comes down to what Overwatch can better handle: long queue times for DPS/Support, or a miserable tank experience where you rarely get to play the hero you really want to play. I think the devs have concluded on the utilitarian position that 1/5 players having a miserable experience in-game is better than most of the playerbase having a miserable time waiting in DPS/Support queues. It is Darwinian, but if OW2 continues to have enough players queuing for tank, then I think that's the best-case scenario. You have to assume that at least some of the people queuing tank genuinely enjoy it, either because of counterswapping or in spite of counterswapping.

[@megamecha100]

thank you for sharing your take away, very consise and well said and I appreciate seeing your perspective layed out so well

[@Zyborgg]

That's a good explanation. The game is never gonna be perfect. So what is the least bad way to solve these problems? 5v5 makes the game better for the dps and support players too. Not shooting bubbles or shields all day makes the game more fun. Feels like people forget back in the day when you get kings row. Get roadhog+rein vs zarya+rein on the enemy team. And your team just get shit on for the next 5 minutes. Sure it was more fun to play tank cause you could play some wacky comps like zarya+ball but the average experience was horrible. Samito always mentions how it's easier to balance things when you have 2 tanks that can make up for eachothers drawbacks but it seems like we're getting ahead of ourselves. Cause the more tanks we add the harder it's gonna be to balance them. I can just imagine if they released 6v6 today. We'd see some super annoying comps that are more or less unbeatable that will destroy the experience for everyone else in the lobby. Like Doom+Zarya. Bubble him. He hard dives and kills the backline. If you don't get that synergy and those tanks you're gonna have a really bad experience on dps and support. Or imagine playing vs Ball+DVA or Ball+Zarya. "just stun he ball". HOW? They have a bubble or dm on them every time they engage. That's why cassidy had his flashbang stun back then. Cause you could negate it.

[@Oldverwatch]

Underrated comment

[@kielmessersmith1956]

The biggest issue with 6v6 seems to be queue times which wouldn't be as bad as they were, due to there being more tanks/supports to choose from. Dps has the longest Q times because the dps hero pool is still twice as big as tank or supports. We have more options now for tanks and support, and those hero pools will only get wider going forward. I think, the longer the game goes on the closer we will get to making 6v6 the most viable format again.

[@rusty4265]

One of the main things that Freedo (and lots of anti-6v6 folks) missed is that role queue 6v6 was only given like a year before they essentially stopped working on the game. Devs introduced role queue in July 2019 and the last hero came out April 2020. And the devs had implemented tons of individual changes to combat Goats, and then many of them were kept in place when the game went to role queue. True perfect balance is unattainable, but it seemed like the devs barely tried. By the time role queue was required, OW2 development was well underway and only a few months from announcement. Then COVID hit a few months later. The transition from OW1 to OW2 was very mismanaged. We have no idea when or really even why they decided on 5v5. But it really feels like a role queue 6v6 was never given the full efforts of the development team. They could've nerfed AoE healing and support duos. They could've even nerfed off-tanks a bit to make the tank duos less oppressive so only one tank was overwhelming. They could've split tanks in the hero select to OT and MT. Instead of any of those things, they removed the duos entirely and now the tank role is completely ass. Good job!

[@z.a.4801]

Freedo starting to apologize and then saying that he is sorry for being right and for having a better perspective, whilst laughing at his own jokes... Yikes.

[@ljb5163]

Freedo Vs. Samito is actually a great matchup lol

[@rogue4340]

Very enjoyable

[@jonnybravo473]

No. It’s not a fair fight. Samito v freed is like Tyson vs you

[@Twilight.Princess]

@@jonnybravo473exactly. Sam is just objectively more correct (no dick riding). Just as someone who’s also been playing since 2016.

[@aidenmontgomery9205]

samito cooked him😂. and did you see sams face while freedo continued to put words in his mouth lmao

[@lifted71blazer]

​@aidenmontgomery9205 i would put money on it that at some point samito said hardline that hog will never be playable in 5v5 without adding the caveat of him saying hog's playstyle. This was the point freedo was trying to make when he was talking about goal post shifting. Even though more recently samito has been adding that caveat of playstyle in his arguments originally that wasn't the case. I think it is pretty easy to tell that samito says a lot of all encompassing statements like that too. It's not at all uncommon for him to do, so let's not pretend that it isn't. Now if you want to argue that freedo should've been taking samito's most recent arguments as opposed to his original ones then that is a different discussion altogether.

[@sav3278]

I play an unhealthy amount of mystery heroes and honestly I LIVE for the times when I can play Winston alongside a DVA or Zarya with a Rein, it is so nostalgic. I was never a true tank main in OW1 but I used to love playing tank in 6v6. It was incredibly rare to 'click' with the other tank as a solo queuer and it was far more common to have an instalock Hog in my lobbies but when I did co-ordinate with the second tank it was the best feeling I've felt in OW1 or OW2. I am too anxious to play tank in 5v5 - I hate the idea of being the only one on the team even though I really enjoy playing junkerqueen and I am decent with Ram.

[@wm8401]

Respect. Mystery heroes is fire.

[@thesquirtlesquad8446]

The Avengers indeed. I love all of y’all, love the Pod and look forward to it every month. Love the passion you all share with the casuals that are still here from OW1. The good debate between Sam and Freedo, and the voice in the middle of Flats. The full circle from Freedo to come and apologize for getting amped just makes me smile that people can still disagree on passionate topics, and still come together as great friends! Looking forward to next month, SVG the GodMod thank you for hosting as always and GLHF

[@ReedoTV]

For any Commonwealth viewers, Flats was saying that tank is the wicket

[@TJItcap]

I’d rather longer queue times for more fun games. That’s a stance I’ve always stood by and I really don’t understand the argument against it

[@axell9130]

Samito > Freedo

[@animus269]

Most people want to play dps since HALF the roster is dps

[@J4Washington]

Partly true. The idea of tanking isn't popular in any game unless the tank is world breaking.

[@kielmessersmith1956]

This is 80% of the queue problem when discussing 6v6 v 5v5, and no content creator mentions it.

[@CarlosCruz-bu1kd]

@@kielmessersmith1956I don’t think 80%. I think the majority of players are more into dps, it’s like that across similar games. It’s more fun in most people’s opinions to actually kill things.

[@kielmessersmith1956]

@CarlosCruz-bu1kd it's at least more than half the problem so that should make it a more urgent priority.

[@CarlosCruz-bu1kd]

@@kielmessersmith1956 where are you even getting this info

[@Porutake]

I think a fun DPS passive change would be for it to be 10% healing reduction that’s stackable to 20%. It would still be really impactful and change up target focus but also not totally oppressive. I have no idea how balanced it would feel but it could be interesting

[@malicious8767]

Freedo going on about how "no one could interact with the game" vs. GREAT tank duos, but not acknowledging that Duos are inherently stronger in 5v5 and warp the game around them. Especially since Tank is so weak and limited in their ability to respond to a coordinated threat compared to OW1. Now Tank is at the mercy of every other player in the lobby having zero ability to carry games while simultaneously having the most, pressure, focus, and abilities used on them. Pocketed DPS/supp duos(especially with Sojourn), supp duos, and even DPS duos have had such immense control of the game and disproportionately effect Tanks. Then to lecture Sam about "shifting goalposts" WHILE PLACING A GOALPSOT TO LEAN ON OUTSIDE OF BALANCE/FORMAT AND CREATING A GOALPOST FOR THE OPPOSITION BY CLAIMING SAM IS ON A UTOPIA GOALPOST is so ridiculous, just to get argued down by Sam. At this point Freedo has no nuance and is straight up just a shill for 5v5 since it suits his preferred counter-swap playstyle where you don't have to actually out-skill a player to beat them, just be more willing to swap to a counter. "Counter-swapping and 1 tank being the meta is mutually exclusive" is such a stupid grasp for straws and failed gotcha, there's only one tank player OF COURSE THE ROLE WILL REVOLVE AROUND WHICHEVER TANK HAS THE BEST STATS/PLAYSTYLE FOR THE META AND THE PICKS THAT BEST COUNTER/MATCH THAT CHARACTER. Such ridiculous, ill-faith arguments from Freedo this episode. Constantly talking about himself as a martyr for the common player but at the end of the day, he just doesn't care about a fun game and it shows.

[@rinshaolin94]

I wanna get timestamps of when ONLY SAMITO talks

[@matteoschlechtleitner4550]

"You wanna get out of gold as dps? Just take highground!" That's sooooo true.

[@x100bullets]

Overwatch 2 has moved away in its design from Overwatch 1’s (largely aspirational) expectation of everyone enjoyably voice comming - the default setting is NOT to auto join voice chat now. A return to two tanks would greatly increase the benefit from voice comms, and it’s clear the devs don’t believe that everyone voice comming is a realistic (or desirable) thing to expect out of the player base, especially now that it’s a f2p player base.

[@rioriorio17]

That’s just not true though. In the last few years of overwatch the amount of comms at all levels decreased an insane amount. I hate this 6v6 debate because it’s fruitless. Nothing will come out of it.

[@depthcharge5091]

@@rioriorio17I’m sorry are you genuinely stupid? Have you seen how tanks have been throughout the lifespan of this game???

[@CarlosCruz-bu1kd]

@@rioriorio17never say never

[@CarlosCruz-bu1kd]

@@rioriorio17the devs watch these debates lives, and many changes implemented recently have come directly from these debates. I dont think anything will happen either but you never know. I also thought overwatch would be dead by now.

[@DrJayPlays]

My pickrate on Tank with a 6v6 mode in Arcade 📈📈📈

[@sebastianrodriguez8992]

They should try it or a QP hacked mode just so they can see how much people like it Once they have data then they'll do stuff

[@gabrielfrench9813]

They don't even need to balance the 6v6 mode. Add a 6v6 role que mode in the arcade as a mode would be dope

[@kippbleu8289]

Maybe they should the game gets boring after a while.

[@ultraviolenc3]

The devs are afraid of giving the community the leverage to push for 6v6 further. If there will be an arcade mode, people might actually like it and it will be mentioned in the every interview and Q&A.

[@bambampewpew32]

​@@ultraviolenc3 lmao every step is worth it

[@bambampewpew32]

Nah they could literally revert every change/rework to 2020 and put it in an arcade mode, no rebalancing needed (although it'd be possible now that they sorta are updating the game now lol)

[@rioriorio17]

@@bambampewpew32please no

[@brockrodriguez8618]

Bruh why does freedo go from being angry and rude to acting like he’s feeling sorry for himself and looking like someone killed his favorite animal😂

[@jaxsonburch-eo1vz]

I think that’s just what happens when you go bald 🧑‍🦲

[@vopcracker3193]

It's just what a man in complete denial looks like 👍🏼

[@bambampewpew32]

​@@jaxsonburch-eo1vz LMAO

[@reginozarate4601]

He gets real manic in his rants. He legitimately scares me lol Does he do cocaine? Is he bp? Maybe he shouldn't have caffeine next time if that's all it is? It doesn't feel like a normal way to express your thoughts on a videogame.

[@bambampewpew32]

@@reginozarate4601 LMFAO

[@amenphoenix4009]

I have never felt that tank synergies have been unfair. I have always believed the synergies were a different set of skills.

[@ryankim1747]

Freedo seems manic

[@jonasdowner]

manic makes sense, I was thinking coke.

[@joshuataylor5080]

Freedo is demonsterably wrong. 5v5 causes one of two extremes, either a tank is so broken that it's the only meta pick (aka release Mauga) OR rock-paper-sizors counterwatch when the tanks are semi-balanced. There is NO in between for the tank role as we've seen over the last year and a half.

[@MrJosephg001]

As a tank main mostly rein in around diamond i have been playing less and less, haven't even touched season 9 and don't plan on it, if the game goes freedo's way id never come back... 2 tanks would need less health but dps passive seems like it could potentially help balance the tank domination in 6v6

[@Real_MisterSir]

Same here. I wouldn't say I'm a Tank main, but I used to play nearly as much Tank as I did dps and support. Since OW2 tanking has just been a dread and I'm never going back to playing that role besides the odd flavor-of-month tryouts. We can talk all we want about good and bad queue times - but matter of fact is that no state of Overwatch has ever turned as many tank players into DPS and Support players, than now.

[@NoWayFolding]

Well said sir!

[@Itzhoneyz]

Samito and flats are the only ones with functional brains in this community lol

[@Vertebrated]

This was like watching a family dispute at thanksgiving. Magical ✨

[@jamescastle7704]

Freedo low key was a jerk Not sure I'd watch another podcast with him on it. Just really not constructive, uplifting, or positive. This isn't personal and he seems to think it is. Really unimpressed

[@isiahjocast1252]

I agree with Flats, let us just try 6v6 again. Only started playing in OW2 but I've always wanted to see what made OW1 special.

[@Elizabeth68337]

If you want a small taste of what made the game special go into openqueue and try some tank combos. I reccomend DVA+Winston, Winston+Zaria, Zaria+Ram, Zaria+Rein, and Rein+DVA

[@geffern]

You are the reason we need 6v6 back for. I feel so bad thinking of people who haven't experienced peak overwatch gameplay. You have no idea how fun Rein Zarya on kings row is, or monkey diva dive. People used to talk in team chat so much to communicate because coordination between tanks was so important. Overwatch is built for 6v6, 5v5 is overwatch light

[@Valqrose]

Freedo needs to take a step back. His opinions are fine but his personal attacks, twisting of words and "sorry, but..." non-apology are just juvenile. No way to treat people you call friends. I hope he gives them a real apology in private.

[@KeanuChrist]

3:06:07 Flats with the W take on Unranked to GM. Worthless content. 3:12:38 Best part of the entire podcast. SVB had me rolling.

[@pacemoccasin439]

Moira is easy af to burst down if you aren’t a tank

[@bobothebob4716]

I've found the counterswap problems to be so problematic I no longer solo queue. It's not worth it to lose 45% of your games just because a otp tank gets counterswapped. I Mostly just play 2-3 times a week with a 5 stack, and we are slowly griding our way from diamond to masters with a 90%+ win rate. Crazy how much of an advantage it is playing in a stack.

[@liamjamesharris]

Never let Freedo cook again man. Its the Discord Mod vibes for me. Its the condescending tone for me.

[@HarlHarlson]

Anyone who watches his channel is a discord mod fr fr

[@AbbyAZK]

Genuinely excited to watch this, thanks for your hardwork as always SVB and to everyone involved, cheers!

[@iyxon]

Freedo vs Samito was a legendary matchup, the mutual respect is real. Kudos boys

[@dogs-game-too]

Just give us 6v6 as an alternate mode and everyone can play what they want. It'll affect queue times a bit sure, but you'd also see a surge of people return that left specifically because of 5v5

[@TechnoTrex1089]

Top chefs: 1. Flats 2. Samito 3. SVB 4. YourOverwatch

[@carl6969100]

@2:40:00 Flats talking how his tank experience has been going has literally been the same for me. Tanking is just a roll of pain and struggling to not die.

[@Real_MisterSir]

I mean, evidently the main reason the dev team have not introduced any form of 6v6 tests yet, is because they aren't ready to even consider opening that can of worms with all that it will bring - both good and bad. And even as someone who heavily advocates for 6v6 return, I can totally understand why the dev team are extremely cautious with trying it out even if just for a weekend or an arcade mode. They know, as soon as they open that proposal, they open the floodgates that until now have been held back simply by lack of anything to hold onto. But if there's just the tiniest hint of 6v6, then there's something for people to hold onto, expectations to form, division within the playerbase to occur, and a demand for the dev team to act - and act well. If they don't, they may descend the playerbase into utter chaos. I think if 6v6 is ever to return, the dev team need to be all hands on deck and fully in on the change, and prepared to stand by whatever decision they make to see it through and ensure, it gets its fair chance to show its true colors and for players to adapt and rethink their expectations. Just willy-nilly putting it out there to test the waters, may stir up a storm they aren't ready for.

[@leojaeger4462]

do you remember when the devs openly lied and talked about how the new engine couldn't support 6v6 lmfao

[@pippo17173]

​@@leojaeger4462the new engine was supposed to be our pve but looking at it, nothing ever changes lol

[@defaultdan7923]

yep. knowing this community, they get upset very easily. who can blame them? they've been lied to repeatedly. however, people really shouldn't be surprised that the new dev team is so hesitant to even mention 6v6. if it isn't done perfectly, the community is up in arms again.

[@pippo17173]

@defaultdan7923 with the dps passive, I think the issues on what people claim two tanks can cause could be better to do.

[@defaultdan7923]

@@pippo17173 oh no, i agree completely. i think the devs should try 6v6. im just saying that PR wise it’d probably be an absolute nightmare.

[@exaltedexile6290]

Why is freedo throwing?

[@piusdoe8984]

Freedo was really talking down on everyone. I've never minded him as I used to watch his Ow videos but man talk about a bitter frustrated know it all. On the other hand, kinda surprised by Sam. Controlled his usual passion well and explained his points. Flats well spoken as usual. And Svb great moderator and interesting idea about the open q. Anyway, personally, I'm not interested in ever listening to Freedo again

[@Nerone_]

Man, I’m a masters player that used to main tank, did the grind through plat and diamond during the life cycle. I miss bubbling the charging rein and getting a huge grab for a Hanzo ult, now I can’t even imagine I put a check mark on tank role now.

[@Nerone_]

Also tanks synergies weren’t the problem. It was the supports. Always has been. Samito explain the game perfectly

[@BasterdSonkKong]

Bro never let freedo cook

[@shadowjack2k]

Respect to Samito for not losing it when that guy made the debate personal. You've matured brother.

[@RobertoChavezM]

6v6 was better.

[@craigboure7607]

Svb man you've found an amazing talent as a moderator man. Your ability to control the room as a sense of authority (to your own peers I might add) is very commendable. You have a bright career down this path alongside streaming ❤

[@Batnano]

nah,he's pure cringe and have 0 authority

[@craigboure7607]

@Batnano believe it or not I do agree with you. However he still has a niche to fill. I know he's cringe at times and him and I are almost opposite on everything when it comes to politics and how to go about our day to days addressing eachother. But my point still stands

[@IHJello]

Great moderator. Even better orator.

[@craigboure7607]

@IHJello I don't even know what that means but it made me laugh lmao 😂

[@Summerfast]

I’m just going to be blunt, Freedo’s rude tone really dragged this episode down for me. Freedo doesn’t seem to be in the right head space currently to take other people’s subjective opinions anything but personally. As a mid rank player ( diamond ), I much rather have someone else on the show as my “voice / representative”…

[@riviera7775]

Right? Rubs me the wrong way too….

[@HarlHarlson]

Just trying to rile up samito and start a fight. Samito out here speaking calm at the bald man.

[@kawnTTV]

Same. Guy is just on the blizzard payroll. He says whatever he is supposed to say, he is meant to shut down voices of reason like samito.

[@Batson101]

Agreed. Every time it just rubbed me the wrong way.

[@somone755]

I wasn't that bad and he apologized. Made it interesting

[@GaytorDaGaymer]

Freedo is so delusional. Like the reason we didn’t have people fill roles and why 6v6 felt so bad was because it wasn’t free to play. Like of course q times in 5v5 is quicker when the game is free to play. Like what kind of delusional take.

[@gTr4yr4y]

The answer is unironically 7v7 with 3 dps

[@20ecupirate13]

I’d play it!

[@Woeisme2]

Probably better than what we have now

[@hugo-zi6gm]

I'm not playing against Widow Hanzo and Sojourn all at once. Pass

[@Pekara121]

Nah 💀

[@maliktyson18]

Freedo doesnt speak for me as part of the 95% of the player base as he puts it. Worst takes ive ever seen lol. 😂

[@tjfkc]

they need to make Rein OP for a season so that Flats is happy, he's suffered enough

[@drew5088]

Freedo is so obnoxious, he thinks he’s so smart when his arguments are so dumb

[@HaibaneKuu]

The "2016 overwatch" as being pinnacle of the game state is a wet dream. It was new and fresh, nobody knew anything about the optimal strats, everyone was learning, trying new things etc. Every ult felt OP because every ult killed like 4 people, because people haven't learned how to avoid them, and so on. You can't recapture that no matter how you try, even just relaunching the game at that exact state wouldn't work because players know so much more about the game at this point. SVB idea of 5v5 open queue with role limits is not feasible, and will have the same issue as open queue 6v6 - you get 5 players on a team, very likely most of them will want to play DPS, but only two could do so, so you get everyone getting angry at each other and demand others to swap, and team loses at character select screen. It only would work well with full stacks, solo queue, or partial stacks would be just miserable. Also Flats take on Apex is just dumb lol. It's not without it's issues - nothing is, but it's far from "dogshit" and is pretty fun to play, and you absolutely do not need to follow competitive scene to have fun with it. Currently it's probably doing better than Overwatch too. But I suppose if you judge by online discussions only, everything will feel like doom and gloom. Hell, watching these podcasts usually paints Overwatch in not-so-great picture either.

[@ooswenchdembele3325]

6v6 just the superior format, it made almost all aspects of gameplay feel more dynamic. It was easier to solo carry in 6v6, it was easier to coordinate and regroup in 6v6, you weren't held hostage by widow in 6v6, you had more fun in 6v6. 5v5 is ok, but its just not as good as what 6v6 did

[@bambampewpew32]

Besides all the technical, nitty gritty details of why 6v6 is better, I just can't get over the fact that More players = more fun, at least for me

[@bellsprout7748]

One thing Freedo is definitively right about is that most players dont experience "the meta" in any meaningful way. Sam goes on about how "double shield was not about the shields, it was about the busted supports that enable them" - and yes, sure, on a technical level you're right. But i remember playing countless games where double shield was played with Mercy Moira, lol. Or Ana Lucio, etc. So the reality is that yes, actually, for most players the shields were the problem. Because its not fun to play a shooter game and see 2000hp worth of barriers in your way. The high level detail of why 2x shield worked at the pro level is literally irrelevant for 99 percent of players. That's where the fundamental disconnect so often lies with this discussion. Stream watchers hear their favourite streamers rant about these things as if most of them are experiencing the exact same thing, but theyre usually not. Its just an excuse to sound informed about the games balance.

[@malik0605]

The comments from Freedo in response to Samito on 5v5 vs 6v6 is a great example as to why SVB should structure these as more of a debate than a podcast where each person takes turns venting or commenting for 3 minutes. The debate between the group would be better in this case if Freedo and Samito took turns stating specific points as to why each one thought the why they do. Both, specifically Freedo feels as if they're on a roll or winning the debate because they don't get checked after every statement they make. For example, Freedo's first comment about queue times. Blizzard made multiple changes at the same time that improved queue times. They made it 5v5, they loosened matchmaking, they added characters for all classes while prioritizing tank and healer, they added passives, they made it free to play, and they simply released a "new" game. Of course queue times go down with all that and the resulting influx of players. You can't really use that as a point for 5v5 being better than 6v6 when you can't pinpoint the reason for queue times being better due to 1 out of the many changes taking place. Samito does this in some of his videos too, but Freedo especially in this video is extremely condescending and should be ashamed for being so confident when he doesn't even understand how to perform a simple cause and result anaylsis.

[@shane3744]

Lawl Freedo called us out for not having read Shakespeare

[@20ecupirate13]

Yeah, wtf was that? Regardless of what he meant, what was heard was that most OW players are stupid.

[@shane3744]

@@20ecupirate13 That’s a stretch. Dumb people read Shakespeare too. I would know, I went to high school.

[@Sam-vw4ks]

@@shane3744I would ask you to read out one line of Shakespeare but you’ll most likely google it 😒

[@BodhiSattvaTTV]

Wished someone would have let him know, as Seagull friends, we Stan Anton Chekhov.

[@draunt7]

What is also ironic is how he mischaracterized Samito's different criticisms of the game as moving a goalpost rather than separate critiques of different components that contributed to the overall failure of the OW1 experience.

[@vopcracker3193]

Get mad at Samito all you want but 6v6 will ALWAYS be relevant to the conversation as long as 5v5 continues to bring diminished results with twice as much care put into balance that Overwatch 1 had. I'll give the devs their credit but it's clear to most the only thing Season 9 succeeded in was stabilizing Overwatch 2 from what was easily the worst it had been since launch. Regardless, the game was fundamentally changed to make the format work and yet 5v5's design issues remain glaringly present: Supports and Tanks are left playing the exact same game with bigger bullets + health pools and counterswapping/hard meta seem forever dominant becuase anything else, regardless of skill, is harder to play against or gets heavily punished with one less Tank to take space. At what point does 6v6 become another "shakeup in the meta"?

[@ofriction]

I don't mind the 6v6 convos, but don't go around claiming it can solve every problem. It's just encouraging a different game with different trade offs that some members of the community prefer.

[@vopcracker3193]

​​​​​​@@ofriction My vitriol at 5v5 gameplay really comes down to how fundamentally lazy the execution is: Overwatch 2 just isn't that different from OW1 to justify 5v5's existence, save for one less Tank and a few passives. Character and map reworks didn't do enough to change how the game felt to play and the lack of a Tank only makes the game feel emptier and more deathmatchy, especially with OW1 veterans across all skill levels vastly outranking newer players in general and making the game an even less casual experience for newer players. This disparity between OW2 and OW1 players contributes to things like matchmaking, rank distribution in Comp & the effects of stacks and bots on a team. It certainly contributes to why the devs seem focused on lowering the skill ceiling rather than adding or removing anything else contributing to the game's issues. All the same, it's another unintended consequence of 5v5...

[@teakwondoughnut]

Svb could be right with open queue maxed at 2 per roll. If we had frequent enough patches it wouldn’t be just 2 tanks or just 2 supports. If Dps currently feels best then we could be moving in a direction we’re this works and saves que times. But asking for frequent meta switch ups is a lot

[@vopcracker3193]

@@teakwondoughnut "frequent meta switchups" is a red herring in the live service model; New content should be more than enough to make metas feel interesting on their own. The biggest problem with 5v5 and one less player is that for all the buzz about giving players more "individual impact" with the format, you can only really either play a certain way or pick certain heroes to be competitive at a high level. Overwatch 1 vets still vastly outskill OW2 players in general, because playing as a team will always be better than solo carrying and the game can't (and arguably won't) do nearly enough to make going off and shooting things more rewarding without leaving the other players at a inherent disadvantage. Tank has been the biggest loser by far (as no one likes shooting at a big target that can't die) and putting the off-tank utility into other roles hasn't had the intended effect of making problematic heroes more viable over obvious winners, or even fun to play against.

[@bambampewpew32]

@@teakwondoughnut oh yeah honestly they should've just done that instead of role queue in the first place, or at least tried it before role queue in 2019 lol That'd be a really good idea with 6v6 imo, I'd be ok with flexing (those that aren't, I wasn't either a few months ago, I'd rather flex to tank than play 5v5)

[@ObeseWizard]

Group Up guests are OBSESSED with talking about how "they were right! They said this 4 months ago!!!!!!"

[@utk8718]

Spilo talked to devs about the reason for5v5 and they said it was queue times for tanks. Well, we are back to the same situation where tanks queue are instant and dps and support take longer. What did we achieve with this format ? Playing tank is still bad and i heavily disagree with freedo on the tank problem. My tank is low diamond high plat and even there its just a constant swapping game and its not fun. It doesnt even take 1 team fight for the enemy to counter swap and then you are presented with the choice to switch or not. I know blizz is experimenting with swap tickets and what not but do we really need more restrictions on playing this game ? its the OW1 problem again where the gameplay keeps on getting restricted to put a band aid on a problem that can be fixed but blizz refuses to do it.

[@thiefpotato2759]

To add onto Samito at 21:55 , as someone that plays Moira, Moira kinda just ignores the 20% healing reduction and the dps that are used to counter her meatball playstyle are all stomped by the overtuned hitscan characters. She does like 130 hps with healing orb and like 105 or around that with the dps debuff on the character. I think how I would balance Moira is removing fade during her ult. I think that would make her impact so much weaker due to how easy it is to cleanse the dps debuff during ult. Also, I would nerf hitscans ability to apply the debuff. Rework how they can apply the debuff.

[@ayn6837]

cd nerf on moira would tank the character shes good for 2 weeks but they want nerfs which is crazy considering shes not game breaking like mauga was. anas nade healing for 60 instead of 100 like it used to and anti for 3 seconds instead of 4 when the healths are all increased & kiri exist whilst getting bullied by a tracer is why she is bad. its a dps season and the passive hurts her and mercy a lot. mercy probably should have her 30% dmg boost back

[@ayn6837]

but i agree w ur take w the fade during ult give the speed back why not

[@Summonick2]

Moira is good right now mostly because of her damage orb and suck damage. Basically, because the overall healing has been lowered and the health has been increased, the value of damage orb shot up significantly. This is because while it’s normally not very significant trash damage across their team, now each orb starts to set tempo against the enemy team. Supports Need to do damage right now, and The supports that do a lot of healing output are the least popular. This means that orb, a constant source of rot damage to a team, will actually apply meaningful pressure. If the fight is able to last long enough for Moira to do 3 orbs, the enemy team will start to be stuck in a cycle of tying to heal people from half to full, failing to accomplish this by the time the next orb comes. This whole time, they will struggle to be able to put out offensive pressure of their own like damage. To make her effective, pick a team that is easy to live on, like ramatra, and just give your Moira time to get the orbs flowin. Once she gets like 3 out, just hard engage and they should fall over. TLDR: Moira is good because constant damage orbs now have the potential to rot the enemy team after about 20 seconds.

[@ayn6837]

its not that its how shes good at living and can do decent dmg and decent healing. bap, ana, etc u dive them u think they live? no. u dive a moira does she have a chance at living? yes. why lucio kiri is meta rn cus they live well and fast. im not sure how it is in middle ranks or low ranks but yea fromn my experience it is that way

[@pacemoccasin439]

They need to just make it harder for moira to acquire targets. Too easy to aim make players track more. Easy fix imo

[@mito._]

This is probably my favorite podcast to date. Everyone pouring their hearts out and sharing their truths, and its truly heartwarming seeing how much we all overlap with the things we care about. We really can do both. Lets make it happen. ❤

[@joto5459]

Freedo felt incredibly condescending this podcast, not a fan of how he conducted himself.

[@draunt7]

Freedo's point about dps queue times is nullified by the fact they made the game Free to play. Suddenly you have an influx of new people willing to play tank and balance out roles.

[@ChimpRevolution]

He also ignores the fact that the game was abandoned on a crappy patch that made the 2 most boring tanks sig and orisa meta. No shit nobody wanted to play tank then

[@20ecupirate13]

Plus the matchmaking changed for OW2. It was loosened up to decrease queue times. Matchmaking was tighter in OW1 but had to be changed because player retention is directly tied to short queue times and that is life or death for a F2P game. Edit: grammar

[@LordOfTheDeepDawn]

Let's say we have: 10 players for tank role, 100 for dps and 100 for supps then influx of players happened and now we have: 100 tank players,1000 for dps and 1000 for supps nothing really changed huh?

[@heiko2255]

@@LordOfTheDeepDawn No that influx of players changes Qs by an insane amount, Compare how many more games can be played 200 Players -> 20 Full Lobbies -> Can complete 100 Matches in lets say 50 Minutes if each game takes 10 Minutes. 2000 Players -> 200 Full Lobbies -> Can Complete 1000 Matches in 50 Minutes. The Amount of players is ALWAYS the biggest factor in measuring Qs, because more matches get played in general you can find matches quicker, F2P and the game being Live-Service makes more people play the game so 6v6 could work.

[@LordOfTheDeepDawn]

@@heiko2255 those "games" won't start until the match maker finds enough roles, so my point still stands

[@Jereonn]

Man this podcast is such high quality for our silly little game

[@felipecustodio8564]

WHAT IS FREEDO SAYING?!

[@jeaull]

As someone who has a near infinite amount of hobbies I can confirm this is genuinely one of THE bests podcasts imo atleast

[@Westbrook__]

It's so simple. Counter swapping is cancer, takes no skill or effort, and makes the game entirely unfun.

[@TJItcap]

With how tanks can’t completely obliterate dps anymore, it’s almost like this might be a good number set to really make 2 tanks feel balanced again

[@mrlunar62]

It feels like dps is doing gods work while u r there just to witness it as a tank

[@bambampewpew32]

Lmao fr unless ur doom cause ur basically just a tankier less damaging dps Bring back dps doom 🙏 (you can remove his punch one shot)

[@Baconator9k]

It is pretty cool to finally see the worthless role actually making impact in real time right before your eyes… it’s like “oh shoot now I go in on these guys” where as before you just had to figure it out and if you were wrong you’re completely screwed

[@rioriorio17]

I really haven’t felt that at all. Personally it’s been a lot better this season than last season. I’ve been playing Dva and Zarya (I swap Zarya every time they swap Zarya because I’m on Dva) in low masters and I’m having so much fun.

[@rioriorio17]

@@bambampewpew32nah tank doom is dope

[@mrlunar62]

@@bambampewpew32 but as doom u don’t kill anything, so if anything ur a support coz the only thing u can do as doom is just stun the enemy 😂