The Great Tank Debate feat. Flats, Yeatle, Spilo & UnsaltedSalted

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Group Up! Podcast

Group Up! Podcast

Күн бұрын

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@GroupUp
@GroupUp Жыл бұрын
This episode was recorded on 22/09/23. Podcast links below! If you're enjoying this content, why not check out SVB's stream (www.twitch.tv/svb_ ) or his second channel The Soak (youtube.com/@TheSoak ) where he does movie, TV & anime breakdowns! The best way to support the podcast is still www.patreon.com/svb Soundcloud: on.soundcloud.com/NHgwE Spotify: open.spotify.com/show/6sRWutKTc0gnWuguo62Vpa Apple Podcasts: podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/svbs-group-up/id1490256265a
@verdant1029
@verdant1029 Жыл бұрын
This episode was recorded on 7/09/25! 🎉
@mortystraphouse5077
@mortystraphouse5077 Жыл бұрын
bring back 6v6
@Feetism
@Feetism Жыл бұрын
I actually think limited swaps should be tested
@revenantcode7633
@revenantcode7633 Жыл бұрын
As a gold-stuck tank-main, Yeatle's thoughts are *precisely* echoing my own; it's a shame that "streamers" get dismissed by online community noise, because it's rare that non-streamers can speak eloquently on their own experiences like this. 1. Single tank lost all of the nuance of combining offtank utility, damage is still power-crept to melt tanks, and specific abilities are designed to be anti-tank/anti-healer so playing front-line is excessively high pressure. 2. Damage being power-crept to melt shields (OW1's legacy of bad shield design) and kill tanks means non-tanks die too fast > Non-tanks dying too fast means supports get more healing output and tools to save non-tanks from being killed > playing tank becomes un-fun due to the demand of playing under that constant pressure to mitigate that damage output. 3. Healer tools being isolated to each Support hero independently means balance is always around these "impactful" abilities -- anti-heal (Queen/Nade), cleanse (suzu), kill-blocking (lamp/suzu), and now yoink (Lifeweaver pull) means playing tank is just a job of soaking damage and waiting for the enemy team to screw-up and let your team kill. No more "initiator" role, no more "disruption" role (except *maybe* for Doomfist masters), and the utility of the offtank was shifted to Supports to some degree... Tank role is just a sack of health, shields are still just health buffers, and the game revolves around supports............. 4. Tools that are "all or nothing" like anti-heal or suzu or lamp. Moira isn't getting mentioned, though her aoe healing is amazing, because her healing can be countered through damage pressure and she isn't flipping outcomes purely on a single ability use... Anti-heal needs to be changed to *absorb* healing to a capped amount and Suzu needs to not immune targets and instead just cleanse with a slight heal... Mercy's damage boost vs Zen's is another example - you cannot counter Mercy's beam (without killing her) because she applies the boost to an ally and allows that DPS to pick off targets that aren't even aware of her boost being in effect - Discord orb, to the contrary, announces you're the target and allows you to hide from snipers or get to your tank's shield. 5. Lastly, non-tanks die too fast which puts pressure on supports to save them which means Blizzard inevitably buffs their toolkit to save non-tanks from instant death. 200hp is the problem since tanks have 500+ health. I'm not saying everyone needs 500 health - but seeing how Bastion has 300 with armor and numerous other DPS have been given baseline health buffs, it's obvious that damage can never be properly balanced when one set of targets soak 1000+ damage and other targets only soak ~200. Giving everyone baseline 300 (just above the 240 damage breakpoint for sniper headshots with boost iirc) and then using that new metric to balance healing output (goal of reducing healing spam) and thus indirectly nerfing a lot of these tools... Tanks are still tougher, but Reinhardt's firestrike balance flipping for 10 damage (90>100) is an obvious clue that non-tank health is too low to allow Blizzard to properly balance the game for 5v5. Addendum: Shields being giant health buffers is an outdated mechanic; I'd really like to see the entire design reworked to absorb in a "staged" manner, allowing more visual feedback to the integrity of a tank's shield while reducing how much damage is needed to break it -- but increasing regen so "dancing" a shield to block intermittent burst damage is the new role of shield blocking... Rein walking forward with a giant wall is no longer the meta, Bastion/Symm are too strong at tank busting because they were designed with shield-breaking as giant health pools - I want to see this fundamentally change to be closer to how Sigma has to juggle his shield in/out with other cooldowns or become more like Orisa's cooldown cycling brawling.
@jacobbaartz7710
@jacobbaartz7710 Жыл бұрын
Next episode we need a preemptive rule against saying "fundamentally" and then only talking about specific examples
@theofficialjohnballfoos
@theofficialjohnballfoos Жыл бұрын
Putting flats and a hog main in the same call was a bold move
@tucrepap
@tucrepap Жыл бұрын
especially when said hog player hates rein😭😭😭
@ElmoRitter
@ElmoRitter Жыл бұрын
I wish salt actually had good points and debate skills though. That was rough to listen to for me lol
@clinical2692
@clinical2692 Жыл бұрын
@@ElmoRitterhe had good points he just doesnt express them in a helpful way
@sera48g
@sera48g Жыл бұрын
​@@ElmoRitterfor real i had to force myself thru his parts ☠️
@tigerfalco
@tigerfalco Жыл бұрын
​@@clinical2692I haven't heard the whole thing yet but I heard his kiriko one and was like huh? So far I'm wondering what good takes did he have?
@Kject
@Kject Жыл бұрын
"you don't feel happy you won a game, you feel relieved you won the game" is such a real statement on how it feels to play OW2 these days.
@5080yen
@5080yen Жыл бұрын
So why play the game man. It makes sense that these streamers do because they gotta eat but for just a guy like you and me ? We should be enjoying our win, not being happy it's over
@greatwhitnorth
@greatwhitnorth Жыл бұрын
@@5080yenthis is why I quit a month ago
@5080yen
@5080yen Жыл бұрын
@@greatwhitnorth I'm happy that you got away from something that I'd go as far to say that you probably didn't like.
@Wildkoala1
@Wildkoala1 Жыл бұрын
@@5080yensome of us have been around since beta/S1 and want to see the game succeed and throughout this following and investment of time and energy, don’t want to just “stop playing” because you feel relieved from a W instead of happy for a W. What the real killer is is, Blizzard as a company and where they are going with the game which is obviously the wrong way and it’s been going the wrong way more than the right way and we are really crossing our fingers that they can realize what’s going on, and listen to the community.
@RM-56
@RM-56 Жыл бұрын
Just the state of competitive online games in general.
@imrendered
@imrendered Жыл бұрын
Yeatle looks like hes been gaslit for months, about the state of tanking and now that people are sane around him, hes achieved bliss.
@user-es7uz6kk7b
@user-es7uz6kk7b Жыл бұрын
Bro looks like Hes about to cry 😭
@heheshshdbsjshjswkqfi
@heheshshdbsjshjswkqfi Жыл бұрын
I mean so many people defend overwatch like they get pad for it for no reason
@AngrySecs
@AngrySecs Жыл бұрын
He looks like Freddie Mercury faked his death to become a ball main
@user-es7uz6kk7b
@user-es7uz6kk7b Жыл бұрын
@@AngrySecs 💀💀💀💀💀
@wildeskompositum9556
@wildeskompositum9556 Жыл бұрын
@@AngrySecshe looks more like Dr Disrespect Lmao
@denn7s
@denn7s Жыл бұрын
Flats´s facial expressions reacting to salt´s rhein takes were fucking hilarious
@TorqueKMA
@TorqueKMA Жыл бұрын
Ya, salt was struggling but I do agree that his pin should not be cancelable.
@CoinGoblin97
@CoinGoblin97 Жыл бұрын
Respect for flats for not just flaming him on the spot for being a hog main 😂😂
@christopher7692
@christopher7692 Жыл бұрын
@@TorqueKMAbut then pin would go back to being useless
@DemonbreedGaming
@DemonbreedGaming Жыл бұрын
​@@TorqueKMAwhy should other heroes get to keep ranged one shots, but the one that requires you to commit in melee range isnt okay? Make it make sense
@SMTenacity
@SMTenacity Жыл бұрын
@@CoinGoblin97wait, he’s a hog main? And he hasn’t quit the game after his nerf?
@Omn1c1d3
@Omn1c1d3 Жыл бұрын
57:24 "You get blamed; you get focused; you get fucked. Ok, I guess we gave you a quick queue time." That's the Tank experience OW2.
@highheart4300
@highheart4300 Жыл бұрын
Sad thing is Tank always had the quickest queue times.
@Vastspartan
@Vastspartan Жыл бұрын
​@@highheart4300yeah, because no one is playing it
@xythiera7255
@xythiera7255 Жыл бұрын
Tanks get blamed the least . Have you ever played dps the worst unneeded role in the game you are bascly hold to the standart dont get any help from anybody and kill 5 peopl every teamfight against supports that do everything better then you and tanks that basicly cant realy ever die
@cagxplays9602
@cagxplays9602 Жыл бұрын
@@xythiera7255 Tell me you don't actually play tank without telling me. Any time I pop off or do kind of average on dps, I get hyped up and endorsed, any time I pop off on tank or do average, I get told to swap, blamed, yelled at, abused and called racist remarks. Let me guess, you play one game of quick play every week?
@Gr0ot
@Gr0ot Жыл бұрын
So? Any Role…if you have a bad team? 🤨
@AraArandom
@AraArandom Жыл бұрын
Tanks went from being Raid Bosses to becoming dungeon mobs lmao
@koko-hh2bq
@koko-hh2bq Жыл бұрын
underrated comment
@theirresponsibleghost7748
@theirresponsibleghost7748 Жыл бұрын
naw we the tutorial enemies rn
@nashovoscallando1098
@nashovoscallando1098 Жыл бұрын
Salt with the Reinhart take has got to be the most wild thing I've ever heard
@ericn7312
@ericn7312 Жыл бұрын
Not to be mean, but it's a very braindead take it's baffling
@GriFFonRec4
@GriFFonRec4 Жыл бұрын
I understand his take tho. He's consistent. He likes the FPS aspect of OW, not the RPG team builder aspect. He wants to load, play hog, shoot shit and kill. Playing Rein and gathering everyone like an RTS and right clicking the enemy like a Zerg isn't necessarily fun for everyone. I kinda agree with his take, it's fun for a little while, but it gets old. Taking angles, flanking, finding value NOT on the main lane. Those aspects can be fun even on tank. He's an FPS player who enjoys the FPS aspects of OW, even if all the other RPG/Moba stuff exists.
@joshuataylor5080
@joshuataylor5080 Жыл бұрын
Honestly, I think Salt's take is hypocritical and crap. He complains about Rein's one-shot that's easy to punish while advocating for Hog's unpunishable one-shot to come back? Seriously? Also, he complains that a team-oriented oriented character in a TEAM GAME is bad? Really? Finally, he gets mad that Hog was nigh on deleted from the game while saying Rein shouldn't exist? What if the same was said of his beloved Hog, arguably one of the characters who is the most unhealthy for the state of the game. I'm a support main with no dog in this fight but I get heated when I hearva take this hypocritical and utter nonsense.
@aerostrafe1075
@aerostrafe1075 Жыл бұрын
@@GriFFonRec4 The moment he decided to throw insults to anyone who liked rush comps he loss the argument. He said people who like rush are bad at the game. What comps are allowed to exist to him? Can't rush, can't poke, and can't dive. My guy basically wants to play CoD literally. He couldn't even point out why he hated Rein aside from just describing Rein. It gets even dumber when you go with the idea of its fun at first but gets old. Well so does every single thing just about. Thats not an argument either. He is free to just dislike Rein but don't bother explaining it when you can only pull weak reasons out your ass.
@timothyjupiter5748
@timothyjupiter5748 Жыл бұрын
32:59 I'm leaning more towards the fact that salt's takes are soo dumb and hypocritical regarding the most different heroes... so he thinks sombra not being able to hack when getting shot is the same as kiriko not being able to tp while taking damage?? Oye sombra can translocate away when taking damage. It's the point that you run away when you being pressured...
@b23beatz
@b23beatz Жыл бұрын
Spilo is the GOAT please have him on more often i think he has a lot of good takes in general about the game
@ecclecticsayonce5131
@ecclecticsayonce5131 Жыл бұрын
I trust Spilo implicitly
@YourPetSnake
@YourPetSnake Жыл бұрын
The cutie gamer boy strikes again
@poust5898
@poust5898 Жыл бұрын
he is a 6ft demon and an ow degenerate, what more could you ask for
@rileyp3707
@rileyp3707 Жыл бұрын
He’s good but he doesn’t really play the game. He’s a masters player
@BottledWater759
@BottledWater759 Жыл бұрын
he used to be an owl coach, he knows the game far better than almost every single gm player@@rileyp3707
@dergr7283
@dergr7283 Жыл бұрын
Change the daily challenge from “Thank a support player” to “Thank your tank” lol
@sergiohenrique3551
@sergiohenrique3551 Жыл бұрын
Have been doing that since season 4, i always felt that tank was the most unfun role to play as.
@A.LeMayo
@A.LeMayo Жыл бұрын
"Talk down your tank from the ledge" 🗿
@Chris-md8nt
@Chris-md8nt Жыл бұрын
Keep having spilo I think he gives a lot more nuanced and less biased answers
@morocuda2090
@morocuda2090 Жыл бұрын
Flats take are fair.
@vopcracker3193
@vopcracker3193 Жыл бұрын
​@@morocuda2090Flats is a paid shill who will say anything Reddit and Tik Tok posts for a quick buck. The only reason he and Spilo sound remotely similar ( love Spilo btw) is becuase of that very truth. Flats and other "former OWL" creators knew about PVE being canceled when the developers did and lied about its release up until the reveal to make more income before the fallout.
@morocuda2090
@morocuda2090 Жыл бұрын
@@vopcracker3193 proof?
@morocuda2090
@morocuda2090 Жыл бұрын
@kyami843 no. Im not.
@MothGirlHina
@MothGirlHina Жыл бұрын
​@@morocuda2090I've seen that guy's name before, he does this everywhere and it's kinda sad. Pay him no attention.
@jebbles588
@jebbles588 Жыл бұрын
Salt proves that you can become incredibly good at overwatch while also being a complete tomato can
@luizh5810
@luizh5810 Жыл бұрын
True
@Gobbygoblin
@Gobbygoblin Жыл бұрын
aspen
@Gnolls...
@Gnolls... Жыл бұрын
I have no clue what that means
@Purplerain-s4x
@Purplerain-s4x Жыл бұрын
@@Gnolls...an idiot
@spunkybug3507
@spunkybug3507 Жыл бұрын
​@KnylonAdmin In boxing a tomato can is someone who is an inferior fighter. So he might be calling him an inferior OW player. I'm not sure, though
@footur3179
@footur3179 Жыл бұрын
Your name might have salt in it but that Reinhardt take was fully unseasoned holy shit lmao
@FlightX101
@FlightX101 Жыл бұрын
like who is complaining about his pin? How tf do you get pinned after plat rank? If you make pin committal Rein is automatically F tier
@footur3179
@footur3179 Жыл бұрын
@@FlightX101 Nevermind half the time the hitbox doesn't work correctly and you boop them when it's a clear pin xD
@andreighinescu4946
@andreighinescu4946 Жыл бұрын
He was RAWWW NOT JUST UNSEASONED 🗣💥‼️
@predaking3217
@predaking3217 Жыл бұрын
@@footur3179Fucking facts, I don’t get why he was bashing Rein as if he’s Top Tier when he’s not😂
@Nickelback8469
@Nickelback8469 Жыл бұрын
@@FlightX101the only complaints I really hear about pin is just its janky hitbox, from both the Rein and the victim. Sometimes what looks like a clear pin just causes the enemy to bounce off like a trampoline and sometimes the enemy is suctioned in from several feet away.
@koko-hh2bq
@koko-hh2bq Жыл бұрын
It's honestly funny how Orisa was reworked to be more aggressive in OW 2, but her most optimal playstyle is STILL to just sit there like a wall.
@bambampewpew32
@bambampewpew32 7 ай бұрын
I liked old orisa more than the new orisa.. like how did they mess up that bad lol
@bambampewpew32
@bambampewpew32 7 ай бұрын
I mean I thought she was fun at first just cause it was a new rework, but then I realized it's super basic and even more boring
@dxtrum
@dxtrum Жыл бұрын
Gotta love yeatle, clearly thinks 6v6 is better but he knows it ain't coming back so he doesn't even mention it. All he says is "without two tanks it's harder..."
@user-et3xn2jm1u
@user-et3xn2jm1u Жыл бұрын
I'm with flats, fuck it, 4v4. OW3 here we come.
@ooochoa
@ooochoa Жыл бұрын
@@user-et3xn2jm1u fuck healers. 3v3, everyone has the supports passive. (?
@mohammedsaleh7
@mohammedsaleh7 Жыл бұрын
Nah, we need OW4, 3v3. Just one per role.
@ironman1458
@ironman1458 Жыл бұрын
@@user-et3xn2jm1u Nah bro they just need to rework all tanks into supports and delete the role
@diamonshade7484
@diamonshade7484 Жыл бұрын
Ow 6 solo Br
@jonathanerhard197
@jonathanerhard197 Жыл бұрын
I love how salt either brings a good take I've never thought about or the most unhinged brain dead shit I've ever heard there is no in between xD great podcast! love it
@Ajoi14
@Ajoi14 Жыл бұрын
I think all his takes are valid. He's a Hog main who is getting his hero reworked because of weebo waifu's ability being broken. You can't ask hammonds to like Sombra, Ana, Cass, or Brig. Similarly, you can't ask Hogs to like Reins.
@Purplerain-s4x
@Purplerain-s4x Жыл бұрын
@@Ajoi14I haven’t seen the whole vid yet but, You can’t base balance of the game around your favorite character. Nerf Suzu so hog won’t be broken? He was throwing his hook across the map and one shotting you for looking at him.He was broken anyway. I play genji and hate mei I don’t think she should be nerfed b/c a bad matchup though.
@Purplerain-s4x
@Purplerain-s4x Жыл бұрын
@@Ajoi14Kiriko does need a nerf though she’s the embodiment of support power creep she can do everything
@stompingthegods5886
@stompingthegods5886 Жыл бұрын
​@Cummster Hog was not broken he you played his counters. Orisa, Ana, and even Reaper (a good Reaper) could completely shut down hog. You'll probably argue that you shouldn't have to play his counters just to be able to contest against him, but then I'll argue that that's a 5v5 format problem, not a hog problem. Blizzard was the one that turned this game into counterwatch, not Roadhog. Blizzard apparently wants u to rely on counters to get anywhere in this game so Hog shouldn't have to be punished for something that wasn't his doing.
@joeyu498
@joeyu498 Жыл бұрын
can we just admire how neutral svb is... what a great host man
@racmanov
@racmanov Жыл бұрын
On last few he really was not. I am still supporting on patrion tough but he made me question
@joeyu498
@joeyu498 Жыл бұрын
you cant really blame him. No one can defend tank this season@@racmanov
@racmanov
@racmanov Жыл бұрын
@@joeyu498 i didnt watch this one yet. But he was complitely on with gaslighting the comunity as spoiled brats last few episodes. He didnt even played devils advocate as he ussualy do. He was absolitely sucking blizzard. Hard
@joeyu498
@joeyu498 Жыл бұрын
I disagree. how can he be a good host if hes not playing the devils advocate? you have to be as neutral as possible as the host and to an extent id say he did a good job, its impossible for a human to not have an opinion so him saying his feelings as a way to allow the debate to continue is perfectly justified @@racmanov
@satanicchocobo9705
@satanicchocobo9705 Жыл бұрын
he did better this time thats for sure.
@skyler7017
@skyler7017 Жыл бұрын
Rein is op and doom is the best tank in the game? Bro respectfully, USS is smoking some strong shit
@hambster9759
@hambster9759 Жыл бұрын
Doom is very good tho if u know how to play him. Especially if u compare him to ball... both are hard to play yes, thats why u dont see them, but doom is both easier and better than ball rn atleast
@vyrawllxo300
@vyrawllxo300 Жыл бұрын
@@hambster9759that’s a potential bias tho, just cuz you see one or two dudes *ahem*ZBRA*ahem*QUAKD*ahem* do really well, doesn’t mean that tank is universally good. Like a strong sojourn will still roll a lobby even tho sojourn isn’t as strong as she used to be, or a strong Zen can tap heads still. They aren’t super top tiers, except maybe for Zen, but with all of them the players skill makes the hero look good.
@vyrawllxo300
@vyrawllxo300 Жыл бұрын
@@hambster9759I do agree with you tho that Doom > Ball, cuz doom uniquely has better escape tools than ball does. Like ball needs to have super strong map knowledge to use the geometry to move, whereas doom can just press ult and he’s gone in most situations if he sets up correctly.
@skyler7017
@skyler7017 Жыл бұрын
@@hambster9759 dont worry im aware of that im a doom otp but doom is NOT better than every other tank (ie: orisa,zar last season) as much as i love playing doom calling him the best tank in the game is a stretch.
@randomguy-yl2ml
@randomguy-yl2ml Жыл бұрын
he is sniffing salt, but not on all the takes
@NightcoreNewbie
@NightcoreNewbie Жыл бұрын
Based on what I'm hearing, Suzu needs to be changed immediately. It's the one complaint across the board from everyone in this entire debate. Every tank wants to do something, they get suzu protection. You make a play as tank and suzu saves the person. Anything you want to do as tank gets stopped immediately by suzu. The thing I've seen the most is just remove the invuln and it's fine.
@heheshshdbsjshjswkqfi
@heheshshdbsjshjswkqfi Жыл бұрын
mah remove clensing
@tryingtochangemyways5074
@tryingtochangemyways5074 Жыл бұрын
It's called suzu wait then kill..You should be pressuring kiriko so she can waste her cooldowns..So you won't have to deal with those scenarios..Problem is it's hard to do that if orisa is there..I still go after them..I still apply pressure the more they focus me they are not doing there job..Now my team is making plays..Example moira..Widowmaker running the room I got pressure her..Support hard carrying I go kill them..I don't just sit back and cry that suzu is stopping me from doing things..I make the player waste there cooldowns..
@blackfang0815
@blackfang0815 Жыл бұрын
@@tryingtochangemyways5074 The big issue with the takes they had for Suzu were that, especially with Salt, they seemed to forget that there are... more players in the game? Suzu does not exist to counter you, it exists to help buffer one bad situation. If you're the only one being countered, and Suzu is always around to counter your play, you're not making plays enough and your team is doing literally nothing to apply pressure with you. One if the big examples was them saying Kiriko can TP in, Suzu, and fix all the problems. Have they even played Kiriko? The golden rule is that you never waste both cooldowns, especially to TP in and save a teammate, because you're just signing your own death warrant.
@godzillaenthusiast9687
@godzillaenthusiast9687 Жыл бұрын
the amount of times I've shattered 4 or 3 people and they get suzued, or even shatter 5 but Suzu is thrown right before they fall and they immediately get back up... these are trying times
@nihili4196
@nihili4196 Жыл бұрын
​@@godzillaenthusiast9687I honestly believe that shatter shouldn't be cleansable. It's ult, for Christ sake, and it's not even that good, considering other ults, on character that doesn't have that good of a damage output on his own. Countering ult with something that has 14 seconds cooldown is just mean.
@brycearceneaux9685
@brycearceneaux9685 Жыл бұрын
I love spilo & flats on here. They def have the best takes and are also much better at explaining why. Spilo specifically is just so damn well spoken and articulate
@LuigixD
@LuigixD Жыл бұрын
What I didn't like about Flats is that when asked for solutions, he just says "there's nothing to do". I don't know if he is one of those content creators who are constantly criticizing the devs, but I hope he is not, because that would be very hypocrite. I say this because, as some may not know, the way you do constructive criticism is to give ways of improving the thing you are saying it's wrong
@brycearceneaux9685
@brycearceneaux9685 Жыл бұрын
@@LuigixD I watch a good bit of his content and a typically don’t see him criticize the devs much.
@charchadonto
@charchadonto Жыл бұрын
@@LuigixD sometimes there is no solution because the base of the problem is faulty. As in, there is not anything else that can be done, then redo it,
@Nickelback8469
@Nickelback8469 Жыл бұрын
@@LuigixD Flats is just a high level player and streamer, not a game designer. He can point out what feels bad and what his insights are and not know a perfect solution to fix those issues. He could have worded it better, but instead of wasting time proposing a flawed change, he just leaves it to other people to find the right changes
@LuigixD
@LuigixD Жыл бұрын
@@charchadonto That's why I specify people who say "why don't the devs just fix this" without giving an actual solution. If Flats isn't one of those, then I have no problem with him
@rowforlsu
@rowforlsu Жыл бұрын
Spilo had the best takes it’s crazy how he views all these issues
@natsuccubus
@natsuccubus Жыл бұрын
plus i respect him so much for admitting when he hasn’t put much thought into something and notes his biases before his opinion
@runaway74
@runaway74 Жыл бұрын
And he's handsome, especially by overwatch standards
@bigfudge2031
@bigfudge2031 Жыл бұрын
He is an OWL coach he knows the game better than everyone else there.
@IHJello
@IHJello Жыл бұрын
as a tank player in shambles this episode was THERAPEUTIC. im going to be sleeping good for at least a week listenning to this every night. for a long time i felt voiceless and this cast REPRESENTED WELL!!
@zero13z34
@zero13z34 Жыл бұрын
Jesus Christ dude, stop playing for a bit. Might help you, no offense
@jjinmahn3374
@jjinmahn3374 Жыл бұрын
​@@zero13z34its probably hyperbolic, dude 💀
@sentinal_entity
@sentinal_entity Жыл бұрын
​@@jjinmahn3374 That was the most hyperbolic hyperbole I've ever seen then 💀
@Larg_Man
@Larg_Man Жыл бұрын
Here are the 2 biggest problems with support: 1. 1 less tank in 5v5 means that support healing is distributed over a smaller healthpool = much too high healing per player 2. Immortalities have gotten stronger and are stackable (e.g. Kiriko cleanse + Lifeweaver Pull). Baptiste lamp used to be the only immortality and : a) It left the player under lamp at low HP b) It did not bring the player to a better position c) It did not remove status effects d) It was on a very large cooldown These downsides have been ignored with recent immortalities These 2 problems combined together cause most frustrations with supports atm
@royceblack6752
@royceblack6752 Жыл бұрын
I didn't think about the first point even though it's so obvious which is why I appreciate you mentioning it. What I have to add is that the same goes for damage. This is why tanks are getting killed in like 1 second and if they do survive they're full hp in another 2 seconds. It's why tanks aren't really allowed to make mistakes. My point is that nerfing healing wouldn't be enough just like nerfing damage wouldn't be enough. Both have to go down. Sure they could buff hp but I think on a long term perspective it'd be horrible to balance
@TheRealKush420
@TheRealKush420 Жыл бұрын
I disagree with the first point. No healing is going to out heal burst damage. Ass the seasons progress, all of these hero’s are seeing higher damage numbers and outputs. Supports have all this utility to make up for the lack of off tank. I find it funny that tank players complain about kiri cleanse, but when the sombra is always hacking them or the Ana throws her entire kit into them, they praise and love Suzu and everything that it can do.
@Larg_Man
@Larg_Man Жыл бұрын
@@TheRealKush420 Buffing supports has become a necessary evil because of the removal of an off tank. This is one of many examples of how Overwatch was not fundamentally made to be 5v5. For Overwatch to work in 5v5, many characters (and maps) would have had to have been redesigned from the ground up which the dev team will NEVER do. I could go on for ages on all the problems that 5v5 causes that people don't necessarily notice but just to as examples: 1. Maps like Havannah or Dorado have difficult to access high-ground. This wasn't a problem in Overwatch 1 because attackers could contest highground with a mobile off-tank. In Overwatch 2, you are fighting an uphill battle if you don't have a mobile tank on these maps. Notice how recent maps do not have any kind of inaccessible high-ground, as they are made in mind that there is only 1 tank. 2. One-shots are a bigger problem than ever before because a tank cannot be in two places at once. It is very difficult for a tank to contest a Widowmaker while also protecting the team. This was not an issue with 6v6 and is another oversight of 5v5 3. Lack of off tank to peel for supports has made it so supports must become much more survivable in order to protect themselves. This leads to frustrating game design as it necessitates strong immortalities, burst healing, and movement abilities There are so many more points I could mention but I don't want to make this comment too long. Point is, the issue you're describing is a necessary evil that just makes the game play worse for everyone solely because of 5v5. 5v5 can work, but the devs would have to rework fundamentals of the game, including reworking numerous old heroes and maps basically from the ground up. Since the devs would never do this because it would require too much time and ressources for too little return on investment, the only other solution is too bring back the off-tank, and hence bringing back 6v6, which is equally unlikely to happen. These problems are likely here to stay for the forseeable future.
@TheRealKush420
@TheRealKush420 Жыл бұрын
@@Larg_Man I completely agree… I feel like 6v6 was better and more enjoyable for players. If the devs would have just reworked tanks for 6v6, I feel like we wouldn’t have as many problems.
@cagxplays9602
@cagxplays9602 Жыл бұрын
Honestly, absolute factuals you be speaking there.
@luuidz1966
@luuidz1966 Жыл бұрын
Hog player talking about having to pick around rein is craaaazy, hog pretty much needs kiri to pretend to do anything
@Skysama02
@Skysama02 Жыл бұрын
Wild takes ngl
@Ninjaboy362
@Ninjaboy362 Жыл бұрын
Yeah I disagreed a lot with his takes but his takes on Rein were wild.
@Orburg-ch1dg
@Orburg-ch1dg Жыл бұрын
@@Ninjaboy362i agree with his take of ana being a no skill hero
@praiseexotic
@praiseexotic 2 ай бұрын
Bro like its not that hard to beat a rein as a hog you just bro so much trash kids getting me mad
@sleepqaralysis
@sleepqaralysis Жыл бұрын
Unsalted’s take on rein was so horrid 😭 A lot of his takes were too, his hog bias is showing so much. He only cares about his one trick hero being good and nobody else is allowed to be good.
@galev3955
@galev3955 Жыл бұрын
"Supports shouldn't be able to survive when I dive them, but I should be able to survive everything." Also the fact that hog was stupid OP for several seasons somehow doesn't get mentioned...
@charchadonto
@charchadonto Жыл бұрын
@@galev3955 And then he is also like *Why can rein charge in put shield up and correct his mistake?* Rein is not correcting his mistake, he is trying to survive his mistake. Because he physically has to go in to make something happen. Correcting the mistake would be recalling like tracer. But to have that happen he now relies on lifeweaver Meanwhile his hog can hook somebody from the safety of his team, delete the target, and the only mistake will be.. he misses or hooks in the wrong target. Shits on a very high risk and telegraphed oneshot but wants his easy safe oneshot back, what a trash opinion.
@Ajoi14
@Ajoi14 Жыл бұрын
He was right about Hog though. He got a whole rework because of Suzu. But instead of removing immortality out of it, they are punishing him and his mains. (Since God forbid we nerf Weebo Waifu).
@christopher7692
@christopher7692 Жыл бұрын
⁠@@Ajoi14yeah I was sorta agreeing on that hog was op because of kiriko but then he started talking about how rein shouldn’t be able to one shot because he can cancel which was wild
@tropisken363
@tropisken363 Жыл бұрын
And thats based
@Bacchus325
@Bacchus325 Жыл бұрын
Unsalted Salt has some absolutely wild takes. I don't often think I have a better opinion than top players but this man has got some wild stuff.
@drkatz1192
@drkatz1192 Жыл бұрын
I honestly think he shouldn’t be invited on again. He was very uneducated, poorly spoken, and outright disrespectful/vulgar.
@mitch4065
@mitch4065 Жыл бұрын
@@drkatz1192half the time he said playing x tank or going x is brain dead gameplay
@Clipbored
@Clipbored Жыл бұрын
@@mitch4065 To be fair most characters have brain dead gameplay
@A.LeMayo
@A.LeMayo Жыл бұрын
Give the guy a break, his main got actually deleted from the character select screen
@MrZebanHai
@MrZebanHai Жыл бұрын
@@drkatz1192 Yeah, there were a few times where he got a little too riled up. "If you think Hog counters Doom you're a fuckin idiot!" Lol, calm down my guy.
@lruddy8820
@lruddy8820 Жыл бұрын
i want a weekly show with spilo and flats, doesnt have to be OW, they so different but watching their expressions when the other is talking they seem to really enjoy each other
@sera48g
@sera48g Жыл бұрын
i second this
@squid84202
@squid84202 Жыл бұрын
I think Flats is probably closer to the truth than not when mentioning that some of these issues might actually stem from a change in design and balance philosophy around tanks by the devs similar to the old support playstyle. I think some dev clarification on what their design and balance philosophy surrounding tanks is would help.
@racmanov
@racmanov Жыл бұрын
Ow balance team have absoluteluly no idea what they are doing. They have 3 pholosophies. 1. Make every support a dps or heal insane amount (ussualy both), 2. Transform every dps into forgiving tankbusting monster, 3. Nerf tanks
@xythiera7255
@xythiera7255 Жыл бұрын
@racmanov But dps arnt tank buster at all its litterly just bastion everybody els is worthless or hit all your shots and stilm do nothing becouse 1 support pressed 1 botton to negate all you did in seconds . What dps outside of bastion and torb can actuly kill a tank solo by them selfs if the enemy tank is not just compleatly running into you and misses everything 10x in a raw
@racmanov
@racmanov Жыл бұрын
@@xythiera7255 sym, sombra, satan, hanzo, torb, echo, damn soldier can farm you hard, junk... And if mercy or zen are in game everyonr is tankbuster. Dpses have a ton of busted options. It is just that supports are even better
@vopcracker3193
@vopcracker3193 Жыл бұрын
Let me remind everyone here Flats is a paid shill and will never give an unbiased opinion of the game. He lied about PVE's cancellation and knowingly (along with other OWL content creators) strung his audience along.
@A.LeMayo
@A.LeMayo Жыл бұрын
@@racmanov ahh yes, Satan, my favorite Overwatch 2 character 💀
@nicholasbryant6122
@nicholasbryant6122 Жыл бұрын
Not gunna lie rushing in and attacking like brain dead piranhas is probably the funniest way to play overwatch
@detectivo112
@detectivo112 Жыл бұрын
I'll rather have a fun meta than a "balanced meta". You know the thing is bad when pro players play cheese characters over high skill ceiling heroes
@deadpaul6587
@deadpaul6587 Жыл бұрын
This is hilarious lmao
@seeen123
@seeen123 Жыл бұрын
Right? That sounds like so much more fun than having to stand back and be afraid because of how much will kill you instantly if you go in.
@gnomad3143
@gnomad3143 Жыл бұрын
never heard of spilo until this episode but DAMN were his takes good. He seriously knows this game
@Drezito_27
@Drezito_27 Жыл бұрын
He's a very good coach just like awkward you should check them out
@reynauldwhistles2338
@reynauldwhistles2338 Жыл бұрын
​@@Drezito_27just like awkward? Are you talking about their personalities or how good they are at their job?
@Applic8799
@Applic8799 Жыл бұрын
Spilo wasn’t an overwatch league coach for nothing
@ecclecticsayonce5131
@ecclecticsayonce5131 Жыл бұрын
Imo he’s the most knowledgeable ow player on earth
@Drezito_27
@Drezito_27 Жыл бұрын
@@reynauldwhistles2338I talking about they way of coaching and I am aware of awkward personality and how people are not into to it but he does teach you very efficient and practically. He also does not incentives toxicity in the game, he always says to not blames others and rage and motives the self improvement and learning with your mistakes.
@aerostrafe1075
@aerostrafe1075 Жыл бұрын
What Rein is pinning in, cancelling the charge, and then getting away with it by just walking out with his shield up? Did the enemy team just let him leave?
@charchadonto
@charchadonto Жыл бұрын
At basically not a single rank because at low ranks everybody shoots the tank and at high ranks that is either a potential pick on his team or a guick tank delete
@aerostrafe1075
@aerostrafe1075 Жыл бұрын
@@charchadonto Thats why he was just giving a really bad take on that for me. Anyone looking at a rein knows if he cancels pin then he has no mobility options to get away.
@godzillaenthusiast9687
@godzillaenthusiast9687 Жыл бұрын
fr, the only time I charge in and cancel is when I wanna bait or I wanna charge past a shield to shatter, no rein is pinning into the middle of a team and surviving lol
@Syn4TheWin
@Syn4TheWin Жыл бұрын
I think the main issue with tank is that the rock paper scissors effect in OW 1 was mitigatable by having a second tank when you were getting countered. Where as now not only do you not have that second layer of mitigation on the counter but now if you not only get countered by a better tank but you also get counter swapped by the dps and the supports, and if your team is isnt actively countering the things that are trying to counter you then you auto loose.
@cagxplays9602
@cagxplays9602 Жыл бұрын
Another reason why I believe counter swapping should be removed or punished harder. Might be a controversial opinion, but I think you should be locked to the character you chose at the beginning.
@Warrior_Meta
@Warrior_Meta Жыл бұрын
@@cagxplays9602Moba style? I think a hero draft or pick and ban would have been better
@cagxplays9602
@cagxplays9602 Жыл бұрын
@@Warrior_Meta literally anything, counter swapping is way too prevalent and should not be a major mechanic.
@Warrior_Meta
@Warrior_Meta Жыл бұрын
@@cagxplays9602 true lol
@Itz_Hawks
@Itz_Hawks Жыл бұрын
Character lock in a game made for swapping is wild, would love to see how far they will take it till they realise that nothing past 6v6 will fix counterwatch
@dannyhernandez112
@dannyhernandez112 Жыл бұрын
Something I realized when Flats says they are talking how bad tank feels to play but when they talk about individual heroes they suggest a lot nerfs and they need to be careful of that. I don't think that makes them sound contradicting, I think that proves how reasonable tank players are in comparison to the other roles. Tank players are not asking for their heroes to get giga buffed and become broken like you often see in some other roles. Instead they'd like some nerfs across the board to over powered abilities so the game feels more fluid and fun. What we currently have now is a rock paper scissors of who's abilities counter the other better and it feels really bad. A support like Kiriko gets insane value from suzu and its such an easy low skill ability that gives free value. Don't giga Winston or Ball or Rein, just nerf suzu. That's the sentiment that tank players have across the board in comparison to other roles. Tanks players might be the smallest player base of OW but I think they are also the most reasonable.
@esperfire3779
@esperfire3779 Жыл бұрын
This is the problem: You can't gigabuff tanks. If you do that, they'll just become DPS that are insanely hard to kill. What needs to happen is the game around them needs to be brought down to a reasonable level. Support power creep is the root of the issue, but if we nerf supports DPS will need a bit of a nerf too or everyone will just be exploding all the time with the insane damage output the game has right now. This is why Flats said he doesn't see a way out of OW2's current problems. This would require tuning the numbers on every single hero in the game, which isn't really feasible.
@Melix0ff
@Melix0ff Жыл бұрын
​@@esperfire3779but supports now ARE the DPS heroes too. They deal kinda same damage, but they got a ton of utility and healing. Thats not broken?
@cagxplays9602
@cagxplays9602 Жыл бұрын
Because everything is too high, we need nerfs, not buffs. There is too much damage, too much cc, too much healing, too much movement, too much survivability.
@cagxplays9602
@cagxplays9602 Жыл бұрын
@@Melix0ff Most of the games I play, supports have more damage, more elims and less deaths than the dps.
@Nickelback8469
@Nickelback8469 Жыл бұрын
@@esperfire3779 Supports have also been the role to have the most heroes added since the start of OW2 and the balance will likely shift back towards the other roles in the coming seasons. And even though the tanks on this podcast were complaining a lot about invulnerability and other utility, the tank role is also one of the main benefactors from said abilities, so by just nerfing/removing the invulnerabilities, cleanses, and CC's, there'd be tradeoffs for the tanks as well.
@InkLink
@InkLink Жыл бұрын
watching this while playing support because I don't wanna play tank anymore
@liltayvert3095
@liltayvert3095 Жыл бұрын
Based
@Spider-Complexion
@Spider-Complexion Жыл бұрын
If you can’t beat ‘em, join ‘em..
@xythiera7255
@xythiera7255 Жыл бұрын
Imagine beeing a dps player right now with everybody do your job better and everything you do gets out healed or no damage at all
@ThaVipaa
@ThaVipaa Жыл бұрын
watching this because i dont want to play dps anymore because support is better dps haha
@runaway74
@runaway74 Жыл бұрын
So kind of you guys to have UnsaltedSalt on so he could, for the first time in his life, have a chance to feel like he knows what he's talking about 😊
@daviduberhaus5336
@daviduberhaus5336 Жыл бұрын
🤭
@yoopinionwrong8394
@yoopinionwrong8394 Жыл бұрын
Salts anxiety was flaring up while flats cooked him up
@voorheesx714
@voorheesx714 Жыл бұрын
The unsalted rein takes were abysmal..rein and winston are both the two characters that make the game fun for id guess to say 3/4 of the community. Without these two being meta or in a good spot, the game usually suffers and we get stuck with a omega buffed tank that just isn't fun to vs or really play as. Rein feels really rewarding to make plays on knowing i took the space and held w like a chad(especially since right now you just blow up, im giving you the side eye bastion zenyatta) and winston feels good to know i called for the dive got there and hopefully started fragging out. He requires team work to make it happen and having a team really trust your calls and follow through on them feels fucking good man. Rein just feels awful right now because he blows up on every single engagement he attempts to make, discord orb is an absolute nightmare to play against (not just for rein but in general tank wise) and im really surprised it wasnt talked about more. Another thing that seems to be happening, is that with every new character that comes out, is another get out of jail free card that comes along with them. It started with suzu and has since developed with every new support character coming out and that also makes rein miserable to play. Even if you dont go for the big slam on a 5 man, you go for one person to get a pick in which landing it is already a skill in itself, you get the slam, and then its just taken away from you FOR FREE. Why do i have to work 50x as hard to actually play the game as rein than practically every other character with the amount of get out of jail or escapes? It's very frustrating and it seems the more these abilities that furthermore come out the less reins youll see because no one wants to deal with these characters having an ability on an 8 second cool down that counters my entire point of existence. Just my thoughts on it of course.
@poop-nq2yw
@poop-nq2yw Жыл бұрын
it used to be “just bait out suzu” (even then ppl didnt like it), but now theres so many bs abilities that u just have to ult and hope for the best …..
@AngrySecs
@AngrySecs Жыл бұрын
​@AbbyAZKwhich is why he should keep his mouth shut tbh. He can't talk without channeling his inner hog.
@hinatasninetailedfox
@hinatasninetailedfox Жыл бұрын
100% agree with your take.
@SamitoFPS
@SamitoFPS Жыл бұрын
Watching these guys slowly go down the path of realizing how much more difficult it is to balance 5v5 it's so funny lol
@Kanggaxx
@Kanggaxx Жыл бұрын
Copium. Spilo is the only sensible one here, and you weren't any better. Anyway didn't you quit?
@rakanmahmood6561
@rakanmahmood6561 Жыл бұрын
​@@Kanggaxxstill plays tho
@patricklodge1576
@patricklodge1576 Жыл бұрын
5v5 is way better samito. Cry and seethe because you rode the ow dick
@darkcat6530
@darkcat6530 Жыл бұрын
nah 6v6 was cancer to balance around like almost any time you release a tank you have to consider the tank duo balancing is hard because a tank might be strong when duod with another tank but be usseless with any other
@meduza93
@meduza93 Жыл бұрын
Amen.
@overusedzombiere
@overusedzombiere Жыл бұрын
USS: "Rein is op because you have to run a synergistic comp and people have to play around him" Also USS: " Hog needs his 1 shot and Ana nade is stupid and there's no counter play" Well Zen discord/ Mercy dmg boost helps his 1 shot potential. And Kiriko bails Hog out after anti-nade and sleep. Kitune + Whole Hog synergy is ballistic.
@blackfang0815
@blackfang0815 Жыл бұрын
USS, and a lot of other Hog players, seem to have this mentality that they are the only "real people" playing the game. A big indicator of that is how he's absolutely enraged by the fact that he can't walk all over the supports to win the game, and they now have utility and damage options rather than just being good little healbots that fall over if you dive them like in OW1, meanwhile he hates logging in just to take space and get CC'd and chased around. Support and Tank have somewhat flip-flopped in playstyles from OW1 to OW2, but now that Salt has a taste of what it's like he doesn't just want to stop suffering, he wants Supports to suffer again.
@pencilsandchill
@pencilsandchill Жыл бұрын
Discord also severely weakens Roadhog and Kiriko clenase works on ONE of Ana's abilities if she doesn't vomit them all over the tank.
@yesimchar
@yesimchar Жыл бұрын
​@blackfang0815 hello! coming from a friendly place I think you got the wrong idea from what they were discussing about hog. they don't want to walk all over the supports. they just want the character to be playable. the removal of his one shot and no compensating change to his kit made him completely unviable. Widowmaker and Hanzo still have one shots and they are less committal than hogs one shot and can be done more frequently because they weren't on an 8 second cool down. supports didn't get safer like you suggest when hog got nerfed. jq can one shot most characters almost as well as hog could with her throwing knife, headshot shot, knife combo or her throwing knife, carnage, body shot but nobody complains about her and she is a lot more useful to her team in more ways than Hog was. the point I'm trying to make is that nerfing hog didn't take away one shots and fix the issue, it just killed a character and made the hero roster go from 38 characters to 37.
@kimoritasu
@kimoritasu Жыл бұрын
@@yesimchar That is sadly not true about USS. Right here 36:00 He clearly states that he believes that you should be able to w key into a support and slaughter them unless someone decides to save you. Which is wild, to say that you have to sit there and take it because you have no agency or ability to protect yourself.
@Purplerain-s4x
@Purplerain-s4x Жыл бұрын
⁠@@yesimchar1 shots are a problem In general but, hog is a 700hp target with the easiest 1 shot in the game. Jq 1 shot isn’t reliable at all the knife has arc and projectile speed and if they have movement they can escape your knife axe combo anyway. Hog just throws the hook str8 at you and the massive hit box of it just grabs you.
@Pointlessasusual
@Pointlessasusual Жыл бұрын
How was it not mentioned that Yeatle ranked up that high on Kiriko when she first came out because in her release state heal botting was the ideal playstyle (i.e. how Fielder played), her heals were absolutely busted but that's not her best playstyle anymore
@Kanggaxx
@Kanggaxx Жыл бұрын
Nah didn't you listen to Flats? Healing numbers are powercrept!!! We've had no healing nerfs at all. /s
@lilgrozzy197
@lilgrozzy197 Жыл бұрын
@@Kanggaxxher healing did in fact get nerfed since then as well as her ult. Which is why the healbot play style isn’t nearly as viable anymore.
@Chris-md8nt
@Chris-md8nt Жыл бұрын
Yeah it was literally whoever gets rush first wins the fight
@Kanggaxx
@Kanggaxx Жыл бұрын
@@lilgrozzy197 I know dude I agreed are you ok
@lilgrozzy197
@lilgrozzy197 Жыл бұрын
@@Kanggaxx I guess I’m not because I keep reading you comment and don’t see how you agreed.
@PeaceMastah
@PeaceMastah Жыл бұрын
Great lineup minus unsalted salt. Boy needs to relax. Thanks for reigning him in. When he flew off the handle it was hard to watch.
@konrah1486
@konrah1486 Жыл бұрын
I was laughing when he said rein’s charge/charge cancel is too good
@harmansingh95100
@harmansingh95100 Жыл бұрын
I love unsalted. Don't agree with everything he says, but he makes me laugh. I'd want to see him on the support podcast that's coming next
@fuscello
@fuscello Жыл бұрын
he is so funny "who the fuck logs on to make space?"
@tropisken363
@tropisken363 Жыл бұрын
🤓
@ae-qw5xi
@ae-qw5xi Жыл бұрын
I wouldn't go that far, his takes were bad but the guy is funny. having him in here made the episode more interesting
@wm8401
@wm8401 Жыл бұрын
Lol, USS as the bitter, aggrieved hog enthusiast just makes me laugh. Yeatle stache is so fire... Banger guest lineup, enjoyed listening to it.
@silaslsilasl
@silaslsilasl Жыл бұрын
get a man who looks at you the way spilo looks at salt. Salt is about to unleash the rant of the century and Spilo is giggling like a little girl on christmas eve
@AbdullahKhan-u2m
@AbdullahKhan-u2m Жыл бұрын
This was really fun to watch, for the 'support debate' wouldn't it be interesting to have a tank player and a support player both talk it out as to how each of the roles feel and then debate on it? i just don't want the support debate or discussion at this point get reduced to "yea but then we don't have tools to do everything xd'' and rinse and repeat that for 3 hours.
@Harevald
@Harevald Жыл бұрын
Put Unsalted Salt in the call so he can call out Ana mains on their shit XD
@charlestothe
@charlestothe Жыл бұрын
Please never have him on again. A hog main complaining about other characters being unskilled is so braindead.@@Harevald
@Tutualoe
@Tutualoe Жыл бұрын
Even better bring in the mercy mains hoshi especially
@IHJello
@IHJello Жыл бұрын
The tanks get an ep, the support get an ep, and then you put them in a face off
@joshuataylor5080
@joshuataylor5080 Жыл бұрын
Just to give context, I'm an OW1 and 2 support main. Personally, I think the problem is power creep in the support and DPS roles while Tanks have LOST their survivability/threat. I preferred the 6v6 format, but honestly 5v5 could work if tanks were given some survivability or lethality back because right now tanks just get DELETED.
@Furawa95
@Furawa95 Жыл бұрын
I am sorry but any time Unsalted salt talks it becomes harder not to roll my eyes
@MrJay1026
@MrJay1026 Жыл бұрын
💯
@blackfang0815
@blackfang0815 Жыл бұрын
I couldn't stand him after Flats brought up Support being vocal and Salt piggybacked on that by whining for the next three minutes like he had actual PTSD from playing Tank. I think bro needs to hop off Overwatch and into therapy.
@aplacewherefunandfunkythin705
@aplacewherefunandfunkythin705 Жыл бұрын
@@blackfang0815its bc hes like a support main that complains everytime he has to use skill for his character but now that hog is weak his skills dont carry over
@fuwameanssoft
@fuwameanssoft Жыл бұрын
⁠@kyami843Let me play a sad song on the worlds smallest violin
@blackfang0815
@blackfang0815 Жыл бұрын
@kyami843 Good. Hog sucked and he was terrible for the game. Of course tanks shouldn't have massive self-heal AND a really easy to use 1-shot. Pre-nerf Hog was literally just better DPS on top of being a tank and not needing supports. I hope his rework is good, both for Hog players and for the health of the game.
@galev3955
@galev3955 Жыл бұрын
Love how Salt's arguments basically boil down to "I should be able to have fun in this game and no one else." This man needs to learn some perspective and empathy. Also "what do you think about this hero?" Salt: I guess it can be fun for a while but gets boring fast.
@blackfang0815
@blackfang0815 Жыл бұрын
He's a Hog player who complains about the one-shot being taken away. What do you expect?
@Bnol730
@Bnol730 Жыл бұрын
Yeah, I disagreed with almost every single take. It was like I am playing an entirely different game than him. Was not a positive to the discussion and I skipped a lot of his comments later on.
@kujikawathemeekmage3640
@kujikawathemeekmage3640 Жыл бұрын
@@blackfang0815to be fair his one shot being removed is bullshit if hanzo and widow get to keep theirs
@WeeWeeWermWangStalker
@WeeWeeWermWangStalker Жыл бұрын
The fact that you care this much is embarrassing lmao
@leemo1439
@leemo1439 Жыл бұрын
He really does come off like a bit of beligerant idiot that can't articulate himself and when he does it's complete one-sided bullshit.
@Vid_The_Impaler
@Vid_The_Impaler Жыл бұрын
Its like, with only one tank to counter, it's easy to counter it, imagine having two tanks, where your enemy team has to try and counter both.
@lilwintery6434
@lilwintery6434 Жыл бұрын
Imagine if you didn't have to counter tanks
@tesla6938
@tesla6938 Жыл бұрын
well they still got countered, and that makes metas even more instilled
@DNYLNY
@DNYLNY Жыл бұрын
That’s why I play open
@Vid_The_Impaler
@Vid_The_Impaler Жыл бұрын
go play cod @@lilwintery6434
@Vid_The_Impaler
@Vid_The_Impaler Жыл бұрын
every pvp game has meta@@tesla6938
@deadhelix
@deadhelix Жыл бұрын
As a support player, anyone who truly believes they are not the strongest role is huffing some sort of cope. they literally are the life blood of the entire team, and on top of that have crazy utility they bring.
@tiga8600
@tiga8600 Жыл бұрын
And sometimes just unkillable if a team ain't coordinated or understand what to do casue as a birg in ranked any time I saw a hog injust b lined for him now about half of the time I got obliterated but the other half was just me walking them down and then doing whatever I wanted
@BloodRain222
@BloodRain222 Жыл бұрын
Love these because I never finish them in one sitting so it’s always nice having something of quality to binge throughout the week
@assimilater-quicktips
@assimilater-quicktips Жыл бұрын
Man, literally every take salt makes has me going “says the HOG player?!”
@Cororo96
@Cororo96 Жыл бұрын
found the support player.
@nagato.overwatch
@nagato.overwatch Жыл бұрын
i don’t think he said a SINGLE wrong take so far. supp is the easiest most broken role it’s actually insane
@assimilater-quicktips
@assimilater-quicktips Жыл бұрын
@@Cororo96I’m a tank main lol
@assimilater-quicktips
@assimilater-quicktips Жыл бұрын
@@nagato.overwatchrein gets out of jail free too easy for instance (coming from a hog main of all people)
@ironman1458
@ironman1458 Жыл бұрын
@@assimilater-quicktips I mean atleast Rein doesnt instanly die if they have an Ana
@VladStopTalking
@VladStopTalking Жыл бұрын
Yeatle out here looking like some 1950s father with a family of four.
@ironman1458
@ironman1458 Жыл бұрын
lol
@insepra
@insepra Жыл бұрын
Finally Spilo back again
@aflyingpotato5171
@aflyingpotato5171 Жыл бұрын
only listened 18 minutes but this is golden (and true thank god people finally says it), go tank boys
@IsMyNameUnique
@IsMyNameUnique Жыл бұрын
unsalted's take on lifeweaver being sent by christ was actually so fucking funny
@Sweet_Reverb
@Sweet_Reverb Жыл бұрын
It sure feels like it. Even at low ranks, aside from some of those egregiously bad pulls like pulling you off a cliff during your guaranteed teamkill nanoblade, it's hard to hate the guy pulling 12k healing in Quickplay that panic presses E every time you take a hard stun (Your team wasn't going to protect you anyway)
@hb-robo
@hb-robo Жыл бұрын
@@Sweet_Reverb”game manager” supports solve a problem that they are creating: more damage coming from the enemy team, because they are not contributing to the fight. That is why supports feel like DPS now, because you can actually remove some of the need to heal by actually doing something instead of watching your teammates do it for you. Weaver players are so smug about the healing numbers and pulls when half of them wouldn’t even have been necessary if you just played Illari.
@waynetec13
@waynetec13 Жыл бұрын
Salt tilted Flats so hard 😂
@tropisken363
@tropisken363 Жыл бұрын
Fr
@Zyborgg
@Zyborgg Жыл бұрын
I love the idea yeatle have for ball with CC immunity on adaptive shields. It's like the dva vs ana duel. Dva knows ana has sleep so she can try to dm it. Like there is some kind of outplay potential. It's just not. "I go in, I assume I'm gonna get triple CCd and die" like it is now. Or "I am gonna get CCd but atleast I have a billion health so I can tank that and roll away."
@skyler7017
@skyler7017 Жыл бұрын
Imagine a blue shield around ball when he uses adaptive shields and the duration is dependent on how many players are around ball
@davidrich27
@davidrich27 Жыл бұрын
1:03 I think Spilo hit the nail on the head. Imo the solution is to make tank CC (more broadly, all debuffs) resistant. Just like with boops and sleep dart, tanks should have lessened effects from slows, hinders, discords, hacks, etc. All non-ult CC. The desired target of CC should be other squishies. Using CC on tanks should be very low value. From there, if a tank is too strong without the CC, you nerf the tank individually. If a tank is so strong it requires a hard counter, it’s too strong.
@jingping5948
@jingping5948 Жыл бұрын
It's going down my people
@AdmFrog
@AdmFrog Жыл бұрын
This was a much more civilized discussion lol
@gidkid100
@gidkid100 Жыл бұрын
I think an easy fix for the 2 bubble conundrum is the recolor her secondary bubble whether it be on herself or her ally. If she has a bubble already on cool down and she uses a bubble the second bubble should be another color, so you can tell for at least that very moment she doesn't have another bubble. I think that would allow for some counterplay.
@batm4025
@batm4025 Жыл бұрын
"what am I supposed to do" is the tank mantra
@defaultdan7923
@defaultdan7923 11 ай бұрын
3 months late, but spilo was SPITTIN when he was talking about ball. i've been saying the same thing for a while. give ball tools to deal with cc, then nerf his health. that way, he isnt a on/off switch character.
@Omar_MH
@Omar_MH Жыл бұрын
For wrecking ball I think something that would help him immensely is make it so hack doesn't cancel his ball form. It would make it so hack needs to be more precise, like you hack him to disengage his grapple or cancel pile drive instead of just getting insane value from any mindless hacks.
@Gimli1357
@Gimli1357 Жыл бұрын
As a support main, the seasons have started feeling more miserable to me. Not because they are weak, but because they are so OP that they don't feel like supports. Support is just better DPS now. As a support I enjoyed playing with and enabling the rest of the team. Now, letting a teammate die so that I can confirm kills (since I out damage nearly the entire roster) is more valuable to wining, but it feels like trash. I don't like playing an OP hero, it's not fun. And I feel bad when there is nothing I can do to let my tank actually play the game. I hate to say it, but I honestly preferred the support Dead by Daylight simulator in the first couple seasons of OW2 even though that sucked in a different way. Now I fear the enemy supports in my face more than the enemy tank. The balance has swung so far in the other direction that supports went from having trouble making any play to being the only ones that can which, is not why I play support. I liked in OW1 when tanks could make big plays and I could smile know that I enabled them to make that play. I want to play support, not stronger DPS.
@Ontarianmm
@Ontarianmm Жыл бұрын
Is Salt going to heel turn on every tank other than Hog?
@strisselstudios3932
@strisselstudios3932 Жыл бұрын
Svb, just know that your videos make my day. The long form podcasts really help make it through my work day. I work in a machine shop 10+ hours a day, and your content has really grown on me. Love the episode.
@joshuataylor5080
@joshuataylor5080 Жыл бұрын
Unsalt: "Zarya is the tank DPS players take when they have to go tank" (says the Hog player....)
@morocuda2090
@morocuda2090 Жыл бұрын
Flats had a similar take but he isnt a hog main
@drkatz1192
@drkatz1192 Жыл бұрын
I’m so happy to see Yeatle & Flats together. Two of my favorite, and most positive OW streamers out there. Also, Yeatle looks 45 years old with the stash, but I love it!
@nag.i
@nag.i Жыл бұрын
18:20 Istg flats reaction to salt saying that support are cry babies is fucking hilarious like he knew he was right but he knew the support mafia would find him
@omarmohanad9342
@omarmohanad9342 Жыл бұрын
Salt made zero sense about Reinhardt, and Rein meta is the best meta for me and I'm not even a tank player
@jyatch
@jyatch Жыл бұрын
Spilo is the goat great to see him on the podcast
@DavyIJones
@DavyIJones Жыл бұрын
Yo svb is an S tier host. Good job mate love the energy
@CH4R10T_TV
@CH4R10T_TV Жыл бұрын
Great to see you back, SVB! Love how the community comes together for these.
@oceaneggo
@oceaneggo Жыл бұрын
unsalted salts takes were the definition of "you can be good at a game without knowing what youre talking about"
@primus_03
@primus_03 Жыл бұрын
1:32:00 if he means like that the Shields give him CC immunity its a really really good idea. When ball dives really good he gets rewarded but when they break his only 200-300 shield bec he dived 2 and gets slept, thats still a way to counter it
@timothyjupiter5748
@timothyjupiter5748 Жыл бұрын
Yeah I really like this take from yeatle... like honestly I'd wish I could hear this kinda a good take on roadhog but all I've heard has been trash takes... it's like unsalted knows why hog is bad rn but he doesn't seem to realise anyway to fix roadhog without breaking the character... imo I think yeatle's idea is really good, it could be even changed around a bit and given to hog as well with his vape being used as a fortify but before he vapes, he can get naded and prevented from using the vape
@demifolk8940
@demifolk8940 Жыл бұрын
tbh i think slam should also be activated at any point, you have to commit 2 abilities and usually go around the enemy team to get a good engage so they dont just insta kill you or cc chain you. also no everyone should have to be to techs like wall jumping and shit on ball just to do it. theres also the fact that even if you do get a good fireball slam combo with ball… it’s usually not even that effective. it distracts the enemy for a little bit but for all the work you put it in, it barely does anything. this at least makes so ball can do some set up for his team and still have his hook up to continue the engage or disengage. i dont like it when heroes have so much for effort for you to be effective on them… and the value you get is next to nothing
@sealmeat2049
@sealmeat2049 Жыл бұрын
What do y'all think about a charge/level system for Suzu? For example, tapping the button makes it do its healing effect, holding it a bit makes it do healing and cleanse, and holding it for the max duration gives the full current Suzu effect. Each level could maybe have different cooldowns/projecticle speeds maybe. Idk. Mostly just a random thought, am I cooking or am I smoking something?
@ironman1458
@ironman1458 Жыл бұрын
pass here whatever you're smoking bro
@hb-robo
@hb-robo Жыл бұрын
It should just lose the invulnerability altogether.
@CorynFields
@CorynFields Жыл бұрын
"The hero's fantasy", then a hecking metalic demolition ball gets bodyblocked by a tracer
@faiz8840
@faiz8840 Жыл бұрын
YEATLE! Finally!! He is my favourite overwatch creator (right after you SvB 😉😉) and I’ve been wanting him on the podcast for the longest time! Just pulled into work, got hours of paperwork to do, can’t wait to listen to this while I work!! As always thank you for your hard work and all the great content ❤
@taiwan323
@taiwan323 Жыл бұрын
“Who the fxck wants to log on and make space” 😂😂😂😂😂😂
@gorillalilla216
@gorillalilla216 Жыл бұрын
It is crazy we say let a roadhog player talk about skill is like give a gun to a monkey... We don't do that anymore since astana zoo massacre in 1999
@ieToastie
@ieToastie Жыл бұрын
2:27:51 Funny story, Commanding Shout DOES have a shorter duration on allies than it does on Junker Queen.
@Cruxis_Angel
@Cruxis_Angel Жыл бұрын
Can’t believe I’m saying this but Samito probably has the best stance on the state of tanks and seems to be a good 5 months ahead of the rest of the community. I just don’t see how they fix tanks without either reworking the entire game or going back to 6v6
@bgakjldvs
@bgakjldvs Жыл бұрын
GET SPILO ON MORE! DUDE IS ACTUALLY GOOD AT EXPLAINING AND LET'S OTHERS SPEAK AND ITERATES ON THEIR THOUGHTS INSTEAD OF GOING TANGENTAL!
@dark9ightff775
@dark9ightff775 Жыл бұрын
I’m so happy to see spillo here greatest coach in the history of overwatch videos are truly educational
@siffumetsu271
@siffumetsu271 Жыл бұрын
i love watching everyone reaction to salt's rein take they are all like "dude are you just trying to be controversial for no reason?"
@Kat-xp8zn
@Kat-xp8zn Жыл бұрын
The support part about them playing themselves is very true lol
@bobdole3996
@bobdole3996 Жыл бұрын
Nah, I consistently place higher on tank then support.
@andreighinescu4946
@andreighinescu4946 Жыл бұрын
​@@bobdole3996so... maybe you're just a tank player at heart ❤️
@trik68
@trik68 Жыл бұрын
Salt's takes sound like a master player malding that they cant get into GM
@tropisken363
@tropisken363 Жыл бұрын
??
@Ofnir_Grabacr_
@Ofnir_Grabacr_ Жыл бұрын
My take is very similar to what Flats said early on in the podcast, and that is that the Tank role has lost a lot of its lethality. Not because tanks aren’t dangerous, they are, but because supports are now more dangerous. They’re dps characters that can also heal a ton of damage. Most of their ults completely vibe-check the game and they have standard abilities that regularly allow them to play around ults. Is this a problem, honestly not really. The problem is that the rest of the roster, mainly tanks, don’t get that luxury. Dps players don’t have that luxury and tanks certainly don’t. The Tank role needs an update, a change to make them playmakers instead of finishers. I haven’t feared tanks for quite a while in OW2 and that needs to change. Whether that’s a new passive, boosted hp/damage numbers, some combination of the three, I don’t know. Support is a problem because they are the only role to receive the changes necessary to handle OW2. Time for the tanks and dps to get updated as well.
@Link2855
@Link2855 Жыл бұрын
Unsalted: "Rein is bad because he can cancel his mistake for going in too deep" (meanwhile Roadhog's vape exists AND gives him ult charge for fixing his mistake).
@Real_MisterSir
@Real_MisterSir Жыл бұрын
The main issue with Sombra for example, is that in 6v6 there was an actual tradeoff to picking her. You could hack the offtank ball doing his thing, but you were sacrificing frontline pressure and raw damage output towards the 2nd tank. In 5v5 however, if you hack the ball you literally remove the entire enemy frontline presence with one ez ability on a low cooldown that has ZERO risk associated. And this goes for other heroes too, dps and support. If you rock-paper-scissor the enemy tank, their team collapses because tanks are fundamentally so important and also so useless due to there only being 1 of them. I'm not saying 5v5 is unbalancable, but 6v6 literally makes every single problem easier to fix - including the tank synergies that would arise.
@MefoWho
@MefoWho Жыл бұрын
thats more like ball bad tho. Sombra tracer was a thing wasnt because ball is meta Also idk why its a given that people should counter pick. Like the amount of people expected me to just switch to genji as a shooty mcshooter player is mindbogglin. Sure maybe if i swap to genji and act like a clown the enemy ana gonna fall over and die ( in game). Its the same shit when a dps swap to counter tank, its not fun ( at least more me) when im "forced" to go on sombra, bastion, reaper because a doomfist is on my ass 24/7 having fun on my corpse
@Real_MisterSir
@Real_MisterSir Жыл бұрын
@@MefoWho I think it's risky to conflate what works on average with what works for you, also just from a pure enjoyment standpoint, if you're good at shooty mcshooters it's probably cus that's what you enjoy/comes natural to you. And here I absolutely agree, there is no point in trying to force someone to swap if they are not comfortable with the swap -even if the swap itself objectively could hold more value in general, just not in your hands. Some swaps do gain unholy levels of impact purely by hard countering an enemy player (especially in lobbies where team play is less prevalent, which even means gm these days sadly). Here the outright ease of value vs low risk of picking sombra to vs enemy ball (in isolation) is out of proportions. Is what it is. Doesn't mean you should force yourself to do it if you play to enjoy each match, rather than play to rank up efficiently. There's a big difference between you actively deciding to counterpick, vs an ally demanding that you swap to counterpick. Two unrelated issues that just happen to align around the same context.
@MefoWho
@MefoWho Жыл бұрын
@@Real_MisterSir tbh ive always thought thats the case since how many time you heard people cursed out pharah because their team have no hitscan ? even tho shes not "meta". Even when you swap to sombra and hack ball, if you win then nobody knows, if you lose because youre clueless then everyone gonna shit on you even more ( thats my clueless sombra experience anyway). All im saying is counter picking is good, but im willing to hinder myself to play what i considered fun. But when theres no way to kill ball as whatever im playing thats not sombra ( ye its skill issue but aint i matched with similiar skill plebs?) it feels so shit to play. Switched to sombra, im not having fun, ball isnt having fun, so what do? IDK where am i going with this, probably just want a fake idea of a "fair" fight, even if its an illusion. Having a chance to "win" even when the odds are against me is maybe the reason people onetricking.
@josewolf9884
@josewolf9884 Жыл бұрын
If we were to implement 6v6 on this environment and specially with the current support passive i assure you nothing would die. Tankbuster dps and oneshots from snipers were a necessary evil to resolve teamfights, otherwise you would be playing 2cp simulator where all teamfights become stale. Its time to put the 6v6 debate to an end.
@Real_MisterSir
@Real_MisterSir Жыл бұрын
@@josewolf9884 You're arguing balancing, not format. Two entirely different topics, although aligned around the same context. Every single aspect you bring up, is something that can easily be changed by simple tweaks. What 5v5 will never do, is give tanks freedom and ability to anchor the team. That is impossible to achieve through balance alone.
@CUPPAGE
@CUPPAGE Жыл бұрын
I love playing Doom and hes one of the few heroes i feel genuinely confident on. But hes so easy to shut down sometimes that i often dont even bother, which is sad
@tiga8600
@tiga8600 Жыл бұрын
Weeee sleep 😴 and blow up
@solairedude7119
@solairedude7119 Жыл бұрын
Last time doom was good was an awful meta so L
@ThaVipaa
@ThaVipaa Жыл бұрын
@tiga8600 also a wee hack 😂
@strikeiksp6629
@strikeiksp6629 Жыл бұрын
Salts take on rein is crazy
@walls0cket677
@walls0cket677 Жыл бұрын
letting Salt cook with that rein part was wild. Especially considering that his whole thing was Rein being able to make up for a bad engage is bad, when Roadhog is literally unkillable if you dont swap to something to stop his heal.
@AtlantisBrooke
@AtlantisBrooke Жыл бұрын
I see why his name is salt. He wants to play tank like a dps. Be dps. He wants to call some of the most skillful heros skilless just bc they can counter him. Like... cmon now. He just wants tank to be op and be the only one who can do anything so he can feel powerful over everyone else.
@Drezito_27
@Drezito_27 Жыл бұрын
Every time he opened his mouth only shit came out it lol. Even Flats interrupted him while he was talking about Kiriko tp bc he simple hate how the character can run away and Flats was like “so you want the player to not be capable to do anything?" and them he compared fucking Sombra to Kiriko lol
@AtlantisBrooke
@AtlantisBrooke Жыл бұрын
@andrecarvalho9144 all I heard from him the whole time was "how dare people be able to have the chance to survive and deal with me? I am the God of this match and this team I deserve every kill and all the praise" Like sometimes flats gets on my nerves for his somewhat narrow-minded views but omfg. Salt literally just sat there and showed why some people shouldn't have opinions on games. Calling Ana a skilless hero?????? She's one of the most skillful in the game. Kiri has long cooldowns, and his complaints abt mercy are dumb too. Like what... she should just be unable to protect herself in any way???? Glad I don't follow his content. This video was hard to get through because of him.
@jm0112
@jm0112 Жыл бұрын
Yeah I'm not sure his obsession with one shots. If he was actually good at the game he'd just play widow but he can't aim so he has to throw a giant hook.
@Drezito_27
@Drezito_27 Жыл бұрын
@@AtlantisBrooke Flats interrupted him when he was talking about Kiriko teleport, Flats almost said “so you want the player to not do anything against?".
@Drezito_27
@Drezito_27 Жыл бұрын
@@jm0112 it's even funnier bc he said Ana takes no skill but plays Hog the character that heals basically his entire hp and could one shot people lol.
@hartyewh1
@hartyewh1 Жыл бұрын
It's nice that there's so much quality OW content so I don't actually need to play it😂
@yaxxydesu5776
@yaxxydesu5776 Жыл бұрын
SPILO IS THERE LETS GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
@benny2870
@benny2870 Жыл бұрын
Yea i am really excited to have him here
@Steeleflame04
@Steeleflame04 Жыл бұрын
I’m so used to him screaming at himself. It’s very cool for them to bring him on!
@thatgayguy2824
@thatgayguy2824 Жыл бұрын
spi(L)o unironically
@DapimpBDSD
@DapimpBDSD Жыл бұрын
Cant believe none of these guys used the opportunity to say Genji needs a nerf
@DapimpBDSD
@DapimpBDSD Жыл бұрын
@AbbyAZK its a joke, and I see Genji all the time.
@whatisthis9951
@whatisthis9951 Жыл бұрын
​@AbbyAZKfound the genji main
@tryingtochangemyways5074
@tryingtochangemyways5074 Жыл бұрын
One support means one focus which means he/she ain't surviving any battle
@johnsonspark171
@johnsonspark171 Жыл бұрын
bullshit. Support is the most broken role in the game and by far the easiest to get value out of. Why does the role that requires the least amount of skill get the most value?
@joeyu498
@joeyu498 Жыл бұрын
Depends really, If your not dying with your team you either stagger or a dirty moira/kiri running away. a good team should go all or nothing against the other team
@DerekStrick
@DerekStrick Жыл бұрын
Also typing he/she is so much harder than just typing they lol
@piusdoe8984
@piusdoe8984 Жыл бұрын
Dude. Obviously they would adjust them like they did for 1 tank. Think a little
@KhotaMaz
@KhotaMaz Жыл бұрын
But that's literally what tank is right now. I say 4v4 but instead just remove tank. 2 dps 2 support, cus then it just turns into 4 dps where some have healing abilities.
@bellabluuue
@bellabluuue Жыл бұрын
that rein take from salt was uh……. certainly interesting
@prestigiouschili7911
@prestigiouschili7911 Жыл бұрын
For real! I thought he was mistaking him for a different tank. To him cancelling pin is a problem, but all the dive tanks are okay?
@bellabluuue
@bellabluuue Жыл бұрын
@@prestigiouschili7911 yeah i didn’t understand that. dude said “i’m not an idiot. i’m very logical” and then proceeded to say the most illogical things 😭
@TrueNyxis
@TrueNyxis Жыл бұрын
The thing I hate about being a tank main in O2 is that you experience A LOT of stress and toxicity. Not only from enemy teams in chat but from your OWN team. It takes alot of the fun out of a video game when everyone blames you when the team loses. At the end of the day, it's a game! There's always a winner and a loser. People need to accept that.
The 6v6 Blog Debate feat. Flats, Samito, Spilo & Freedo
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