The Hardest Questions for Atheists to Answer

[@GeneticallyModifiedSkeptic]

Go to ground.news/skeptic to get all sides of every story. Subscribe through my link to save 40% off unlimited access.

[@Napoleonic_S]

Have you ever thought about countering a religion question with another religion teaching? "Would you submit to christian god?" Answered by "would you submit to buddha?" Etc.

[@snehashispanda4808]

Monotheism is the instigator of ignorance, oppression, and violence. Monotheism has been a "totalizing discourse", often co-opting all aspects of a social belief system, resulting in the exclusion of "others". Monotheism is less pluralistic , because monotheism stipulates that people pigeonhole their beliefs into one tenet. "Monotheism is irreconcilable with the existence in our nature of the instincts of benevolence" because it compels followers to devote themselves to a single Creator. The logic of monotheism yields little basis for tolerating other religions". Monotheism anesthetize the sense of wonder as if one were committed to a single line of thought by a cosmic legal contract".

[@cwchadwynn]

Yes or No Do you call yourself an atheist : Yes Do you believe God exists : Yes Do you worship God : No Do you follow monotheism : No Is christianity spiritual to you : Yes Is spirituality the same a morality : Yes Is God spiritual to you : No Is God another name for elohim : Yes Does elohim mean God : Yes Is elohim a Extra Terrestrial : Yes Has paul wallis uncoverd the mistranslation of hebrew words into greek and english : Yes Can i watch paul wallis at the 5th kind on KZbin : Yes Does paul wallis have his own channel : Yes Do most people define that word God incorrectly : Yes Thank you, please visit the 5th kind and paul wallis channel and please do this so we can have a meaningfull and correct conversation about language, again thank you.

[@cwchadwynn]

you can also find videos on this topic on my public playlist.

[@breetopkuschi9657]

Hey Drew! Maybe you don’t see these reply threads but, I’m writing anyway in case. I’m really looking for any feedback from anyone though. I haven’t really focused on this topic much in my life until lately. One thing I’ve been thinking about lately is the difference between atheism and agnosticism. (I grew up a Christian and switched to atheism several years ago now). I could call myself an agnostic because if there were hypothetically some irrefutable evidence of a god, then sure, I’d have to believe it, but I think I classify myself as an atheist because of my belief about that hypothetical happening. An agnostic might be more open to that scenario happening; I believe I will not be presented with that evidence, ever. If it happened, sure, I’d believe, but since I believe that it won’t happen, that’s the difference for me. For a Christian, I’d imagine they think along the same lines. Sure, if they were hypothetically presented some irrefutable evidence that god doesn’t exist, then they’d believe it. But they believe that they won’t be presented with that evidence. Does that make sense to anyone here? Is there any other differences that are more direct than “belief about a hypothetical’s ability to happen” that are in play here?

[@nagranoth_]

the obvious answer is "that's a loaded question and I'm not playing your game. Obviously if a god actually showed itself to me I would then be a theist. Whether I would also worship it is a different topic, for theist me, which I'm not"

[@happytofu5]

Also, they sneakily present only two options. Either worship god or yourself. How about not worshipping anyone?

[@andywomack3414]

For me, the obvious and honest answer is "I don't know."

[@almcdermid9669]

​@@happytofu5"Everyone worships something." 🙄 No they don't.

[@OneEyeShadow]

@@happytofu5 As someone who hasn't grown up in any of these fundy circles, phrases like "worhipping yourself" or "making yourself God" or whatever sound like weird cult speak to me. Not gonna lie.

[@MenluiK]

Arthur C. Clarke: 'Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.' How would you know it's a god?

[@RealPumpkinJay]

If god was real and he came down and proved his existence to me, I would believe he exists. That doesn’t mean I would worship him, but I would believe he exists.

[@harveywabbit9541]

He is that big ball of burning fire in the sky.

[@n0etic_f0x]

@@RealPumpkinJay I don’t even know if I could get there. My Jesus would provide for people, not me I don’t see myself and feel guilty about not being able to provide for myself. No I am driving Jesus to a camp where homeless people are gathered and demanding that he prevent their food supply from ever diminishing. I feel bad not because I don’t provide them with food, I can and have, I feel guilty about the fact I can’t provide infinite food. I want to but I can’t, if I could they would already have infinite food.

[@RealPumpkinJay]

@@harveywabbit9541 Interesting thought, but I have no reason to believe it’s anything more than a completely natural phenomenon. The sun is a sphere of hot, churning plasma. It’s a yellow dwarf star at the centre of our solar system.

[@SierraHamila]

​​@@RealPumpkinJay I am agnostic thiest. I believe in the existence of a higher power. I feel that infinite point mass before the big bang is something we can't describe hence god Which leads to existence later on. It's interesting... space and technology (I study engineering) So much uncertainty ig that's why it's comforting for people to know someone is taking care of them I don't blame them Only thing religious my family does is help the orphanage and old-age home near our house other than cultural festivals.

[@devanshsrivastava3171]

if God was real and he met me i would request him to just flood the world and start from scratch, and next time just make humans (without evolution) and keep an eye on them, and interfere (as a neutral force) in moments of conflict unlike how he did it this time

[@4Mr.Crowley2]

I love how the Christians immediately conflate “believe” with “worship.” So even if god exists, and we all believe he exists because this is made clear to all, that doesn’t mean we would necessarily *WORSHIP* this god for all the reasons you mention.

[@tartas1995]

For those struggling to understand, do you believe hilter existed? Yes? Then do you worship him? No? Great, you get it.

[@timothymonk1356]

This is more an issue of English being a fluid mess of a language (I love it, but still). The Greek word translated as "believe" is not simply "affirm the existence of" but is more to the effect of "obey and trust your life to". The English word covered both until fairly recently. It also translates as "faith", which is based on firm understanding and evidence, rather than what faith has come to mean in modern English as "blind trust without or in spite of evidence" So yes, "believe" and "worship" are near enough the same idea, except that the more significant meanings of those words are being forgotten.

[@TikoVerhelst]

Put Satanism into a whole new perspective lol. If Satan showed himself to you, would you worship him? lol

[@musicauthority674]

A person can believe god exists and worship him all they want? but because of all the horrors and atrocities in the world. to get shit on in return is a pretty one sided relationship. and I say no thanks.

[@ale_lingua]

@@timothymonk1356Thank you!! And yes, there is a curious semantic elision at play here. Christian apologists will say “if you believed in God” but omit the part where the person they’re addressing would be *compelled to have faith in that god.* which is a very different thing. And then, in the clips that we see here, they will turn the failure of their god to compel our faith, or to elicit the expected response of faith and devotion, into a personal failing of those who do not “believe.”

[@vengerofthelight]

"If Odin the All-Father appeared before you to prove he exists, would you worship him?"

[@cobrasys]

That's really the way to answer this, because after the inevitable "no, of course not!" you can then ask "OK, but would you at least _believe_ he exists?" and continue the conversation from there.

[@JustifiedNonetheless]

As an irreligious, agnostic theist, I find this absolutely brilliant.

[@austinluther5825]

I've used this argument before, and every time they get insulted. Like, they're genuinely affronted by the reminder that there are other religions.

[@tulpas93]

That's just it. He didn't want to be worshipped. He wanted you to be awesome and willing to fight and die for what you think is right for yourself and your family. Oðinn admirers don't worship him. They seek to emulate his courage, cleverness, strength of character, and wisdom. Wanting, let alone demanding to be worshipped, is a clear indicator of weakness in character.

[@sideshowbob]

@@austinluther5825 My fav Posit to Christians: "if Zoroastroism was demonstrated to be the One True Religion, because it was the very first truly Monotheistic religion, which Judaism borrowed that concept from during / after the Babylonian exile, & thus precipitated the God of Abraham that all 3 religions worship, would you accept that?" The typical response being "What Is Zoroastroism?" (ok, sure, I can't spell it either, so . . . )

[@bodan1196]

-Kirsti- Kristi answered absolutely unambiguously; she would not worship. She would know (so no need for belief), and she would not worship. I know that certain politicians exist, but I will not belive most of anything they say, and never ever worship any.

[@Patrick-rw9el]

Exactly.

[@mjjoe76]

Bingo. Conflating belief with worship is classic theist dishonesty.

[@Wud-f2r]

@@mjjoe76”Well, you believe in the Devil, right?” “Yes.” “So you worship the Devil?”

[@bleepbloop101010101]

@@Wud-f2r Or name a god from another religion. Christianity exists, but humans discover Vishnu is real. Are they switching religions?

[@dusty3913]

Yep. “Believing” (or knowing something exists) is NOT synonymous with “worshipping.” It’s two different concepts and she clarified it perfectly.

[@jimmonroe5193]

To paraphrase Captain Kirk, "Why does god need my worship?"

[@wprandall2452]

Because He is the source of your life spirit. You can exist without Him, but only in Hell.

[@jimmonroe5193]

@@wprandall2452 Answering a question not asked. I asked "Why does god need my worship?" I most assuredly did not ask why I need to worship.

[@kellydalstok8900]

@@wprandall2452 why would you fear hell if your brain and nerves have died? The fact was that, as droves of demon kings had noticed, there was a limit to what you could do to a soul with, e.g., red-hot tweezers, because even fairly evil and corrupt souls were bright enough to realise that since they didn’t have the concomitant body and nerve endings attached to them there was no real reason, other than force of habit, why they should suffer excruciating agony. So they didn’t. (Eric - Terry Pratchett)

[@wprandall2452]

@@jimmonroe5193 Stop being dumb. Because He is our spiritual Father. He wants your love like anyone else. But He is THE god. He began in infinity. He accomplishes all things. The last thing He will accomplish is on Judgment Day. As the Bible says, "all people will bow down to Jesus, and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord". For most, it will be the last thing they ever say. You will have no choice in the matter!

[@jimmonroe5193]

@@wprandall2452 I obviously have a choice. God's demand that I worship shows I have a choice to not worship the egotist.

[@saintjynr]

I hate the "you dont understand how god thinks, it may look bad to you but its ultimately for good". Well, how do YOU know that he's doing it for good? You dont know how he thinks, you only know what he told you he is, and both a good and evil god would tell the same thing, "what I'm doing is good"

[@sideshowbob]

"You only Purport to Know Your Own (or your Preacherman's) Interpretation of What He Told You". And yes, the message is: "God Is Good"

[@tomgames8616]

Book of Isaiah: "god created evil and good" Yeah, we really don't know. The bible says god creates evil, so if god does something, it could very well just be for the sake of evil existing. No good to come of it, just evil. Because god creates evil, according to the bible.

[@mpalmer22]

​@@tomgames8616evil is an abstraction, not a created tangible thing. Evil is more to do with a person's choice, do they obey the law, or reject it. If there is no law, there is no evil. I think Isaiah was talking of evil in the form of natural disasters (floods, volcanoes, earthquakes).

[@tomgames8616]

@@mpalmer22 and that doesn't the change the point? God still created evil according to the bible.

[@Rain-Dirt]

And even the part where "god" spoke to him is highly questionable. It's not so much of how do you know god is good or how god thinks... it's about if there is a god at all, let alone a specific one. The absolute level of assumption that is being made when someone says "god is good", is mindblowing.

[@taoofjester4113]

If it happened, I would wonder why God is so insecure and needs me to worship him. I would advise him to go to therapy and work through his abandonment issues. Hopefully, he would finally get to the point where he could love himself just for being himself and not need love and validation from everyone else.

[@sally5097]

😂

[@MossyMozart]

Brilliant.

[@luka_8]

Or god is an egotistical maniac who thinks he's better than everyone else and if someone doesn't love him, they're obviously worthless to him.

[@n0etic_f0x]

@@taoofjester4113 I love this answer. I mean I make food for my boyfriend and he doesn’t even worship me. If he did that I would find it very strange. I mean we are into some pretty kinky stuff but what the heck is this?

[@BeyondGodverse-z3h]

I mean, is there really anybody he could talk to about this tho you would need different therapist for all three of them since he’s three entities in one.

[@mdug7224]

1:37 ? He just changed 'worship' to 'believe'! He needed to set up a strawman just to make his argument viable. I believe Ted Bundy was real. I think he was an absolute monster. According to this apologist's logic, I people should have worshipped Ted because he was real.

[@Dr.Funk8864]

Lmao

[@Wud-f2r]

“The atheist seems to think that if God has morally sufficient reasons for permitting the evil….” let me stop you right there. The atheist doesn’t think God has reasons for anything, because the Atheist doesn’t believe that God exists. QED

[@MrDalisclock]

WLC doesn't understand how atheists think and has made it clear that he's not interested in understanding either. Because he's convinced "Jesus loves Bill Craig" and that's all that matters to him.

[@natbarmore]

And the Christian that would ascribe that belief to atheists doesn’t believe it either. For anybody who would say that, there’s no “if”-“the Christian seems to think that God has morally sufficient reasons for permitting the evil.”

[@123ghds]

I think it was framed in the context of an internal critique Mr smartypants

[@Wud-f2r]

@@123ghds very poorly

[@123ghds]

@@Wud-f2rnot understanding framing of rhetoric is not a good tell for intellegence

[@LaBlueSkuld]

It's crazy that the average pet owner is kinder and more forgiving than God: and they didn't even vountarily create the flaws in their pets.

[@Culpride]

One definition of "love" that I especially like is: Wanting to give good even without reimbursement/acknowledgement. Pet owners usually have this. (i.E. spending insane money on medication even when their pets life comes to an end) It's often questionable if this is appicable to a god as it's described in old books..

[@jessephillips8319]

​@@CulprideAnd here I would have thought that pets were the pinnacle of reimbursement. Their ability to acknowledge and return affection is probably why pets are so loved.

[@GilraenTook]

@@jessephillips8319 Not necessarily. I've got pet reptiles and fish. The fish beg, but the reptiles would rather be left alone so long as their physical needs are met.

[@Drak_Thedp]

I wouldn't use this analogy, as owning breeds made by inhumane selection, like pugs chihuahuas french bulldogs, bald crooked-legged cats etc. perpetuates their breeding despite visible suffering being inflicted on those animals with the very fact of their existence.

[@n0etic_f0x]

@@LaBlueSkuld I know right? And my dogs live in a house I paid for and eat for I pay for. But why? God has never paid my rent or made me dinner.

[@b.h.bentzman]

Rules for Gods 1. Any god who excludes vast populations of humanity from a heaven despite their merits, to save only those who show proper allegiance, is a bigoted deity. Thou shalt not worship such a god. 2. Any god who reveals themself to only one charismatic individual and not the whole of humanity is being an unethically elitist deity. Thou shall not worship such a god. 3. Any god who insists on worship and glorification is a vain and superficial deity. Thou shalt not worship such a god. 4. Any god who calls for the exploitation or destruction of innocents is a psychopathic deity. Thou shalt not worship such a god. 5. Any god who creates things for the purpose of condemning them is an unreasonably cruel deity. Thou shalt not worship such a god. 6. Any god who insists their followers disregard observable facts, requiring them to deny evolution, claim the earth is only six thousand years old, or the world is flat, is a dangerously duplicitous god. Thou shalt not worship such a god. We should reserve our loyalties for those who merit them.

[@absolstoryoffiction6615]

All true. Added... Any "Creator God" who destroyes the Souls of Life is not a God to worship. Especially one who is claimed to be omnipotent and all good. I am the Maker of Chaos. It is I to whom all Gods answer to. And upon this Earth, I have yet to meet another beyond the tongue of Mankind.

[@shortycrust]

Interesting how out of the thousands of gods, all of them break at least a few of these rules. I wonder why.

[@absolstoryoffiction6615]

@shortycrust All of it is of antiquity. That's why. Human Nature and division intended. Nothing new, and such is Mankind since their creation. (Evolution wise). The body of man is not random. It just got lucky that the Matrix Equation of this universe puzzled them together. Nothing is ever truly random. That's just cope or the lack of omniscient data. I mean sure, people make mistakes. But I'm not talking philosophically. I mean physically. I know how God is created if he was real. 5th Dimensional at best for YHWH. I have been to higher Dimensions and codified it all. But this body lacks omniscient data, so I do relay on humanity's knowledge. In essence, nothing outside of Sentience is truly random. We just don't have all of the data. I say this because true Sentience is the one and the only Factor. Free Will, it is truly beyond omniscience for even Fate fears it. If people realized that, then nothing can stop them. But alas, animals are the way of society... Unfortunately.

[@aemiliadelroba4022]

I don’t think people realize that that god is only their own invention and not the real thing .!😮

[@shirothefish9688]

Evolution isnt mutually exclusive with christianity, nor is the idea that earth isnt extremely old. Christians are just often too closed minded to realize it

[@VeryCuriousGuy]

“There is no question that cannot be answered and there is no answer that cannot be questioned“ - Kick Buttowski

[@edmundshumway3869]

Wow, this is actually really cool

[@giovannicorso7583]

"uhm, actually..." math and all formal system have been proven that they are incomplete, meaning not every statement can be verified. Just think at the classic "this sentence is true". Check out Godel's Incompleteness theorems if you want.

[@taoofjester4113]

​@@richardandrespeguerosantan8761worms and maggots?

[@MNMNMNMNMNMNMNMNMNMNMNMNMNMN]

For the high crime of a minor typo, the court finds you shall be sentenced to edit on penalty of slightly bothering me (it's my fault, I'm a pedantic jac-, you get it, my bad 🙏)

[@opensocietyenjoyer]

@@giovannicorso7583 you completely misunderstood goedel's theorems, buddy. answering is not the same as proving something

[@MissyAmy88]

Its so hard for christians to understand that others dont see the bible as anything but fiction. «The bible says» is like arguing what Odin says or even better what Gandalf says in LOTR. When I get quoted the bible I quote an other famous book of fiction😂

[@almcdermid9669]

I quote from Dune in those cases.

[@MossyMozart]

​@@almcdermid9669 - Which quote?

[@rhokesh4391]

That was literally what kickstarted my deconstruction (not that there was a lot to deconstruct, having been a very casual European Catholic). The realization that if I believe God created Heaven and Earth in Seven Days, I might as well believe that Éru Ilúvatar and his Naiar sang the world into being. For both there are books that tell me that it happened, how am I supposed to know which book tells the true story? Oh, THE BOOK tells me it's telling me the true story? Right. But you don't believe a 'man' is actually a woman when she tells you she is? I smell a double standard...

[@MissyAmy88]

@@rhokesh4391 Exacly, and by studying religious and mythical belives before the bible, you find the same stories but slightly different. Because the stories are the same, they are passed on from generation to the next. The details differ, but you can find Gods being born by virgins and resurrected many places. We humans love stories and we build upon what we have heard before. I find them all to by mythical and fiction. The bible is no different

[@MissyAmy88]

@@almcdermid9669 Nice. Dune being heavely inspired by Islam and Jihad.

[@SpaghettiJoseph]

Fun fact. The Catholic Church *technically* has no restrictions on who can make holy water. On an unrelated note the well in my yard is now holy water. All of it.

[@Lowtiersorcerer]

It would have been much more handy if jesus thought us how to turn water into wine lol

[@Cajek2]

"Hey Atheist - explain all of existence or I win"

[@abdul-kabiralegbe5660]

😆👍🏻

[@wax99]

I made a similar comment on a Christian channel that made that same argument and got really piled on 😅

[@todpalmer2545]

our existence doesn't mean there is an invisible man in the sky. By the way....the bible was written by MAN as I'm sure you are aware. That proves the whole argument from your side is bogus.

[@Evan-k]

Ok, time and heat

[@AlexanderShamov]

The crazy part is that theistic stories explain absolutely nothing. We're held to the highest standards of rigorous science, while they're held to no standards at all.

[@leeshajoi]

My immediate thought is "Which God?"

[@jessewilley531]

Carl... he's the God of every time you catch a random show on TV, either on a rainy day when the WiFi is out, you're watching on the TV in a bar or on a flight, or at friend's house or something, it's always the same episode... no matter how many seasons the show ran. For instance, I've seen only one entire episode of The Big Bang Theory... and each time it is season one episode 3.

[@crapton9002]

If you don't cover all the Hells, Pascals wager is useless; thus belief becomes a lottery for ego maniacs and their God of choice.

[@rG1vZ]

and my immediate followup would be, why does said God want/need worship? And why does it need to be done by a much lesser being?

[@D.MarcelloRadice]

the one who will punish you for abanondeted him for the nothing this cult called atheism gives you.

[@ChrisBreederveld]

Which god, and which denomination? Am I to submit to the misogynistic loving God, or the slave trader murderer God, or can I pick my "favorite"?

[@Xaytan]

I guess I'm out as an atheist to my family now. My aunt was saying some homophobic shit and I couldn't take it anymore. I told her that I don't believe God is real so his opinion on my distant lesbian cousin isn't a factor.

[@aronpuma5962]

That's very brave of you, and I wish the best for you and your cousin

[@matthewmoorman2018]

Brave and bravo!

[@EmTeeFinley]

You are braver than I will ever be 👏

[@Silvermist099]

As someone who is now in a similar situation (my family found out that I’m agnostic) I understand that feeling and not being able to take it anymore. Cannot tell you how many times I’ve almost lost it because I’ve had to hear the same homophobic BS which is irritating, mainly because my best friend is lesbian and my family is aware of that. I say they had it coming and what you did was brave. They deserve to hear pushback from people outside their echo chamber.

[@Xaytan]

@@Silvermist099 Yeah, it's been "great" so far. Late night call from my mother to ask me if I'm gay because clearly that's the only reason I would defend them and/or stop believing in God. It was kinda nice to hear her say she'd love me either way. But still.

[@MasamiPhoenix]

My problem with these questions is that they’re ultimately pointless. When completely cleaned up, the question boils down to "If we assume for a moment that I'm 100% right, would you accept that I'm 100% right?" Beyond that, there's the fact that my answer is irrelevant because this hasn't happened, and I - by definition - don't believe it ever can. Its a useless hypothetical.

[@hi12235]

Wow really well put

[@PAN-ickmode247]

I have a bit of a rule I don’t worship and follow that which has committed genocides and claims to be love or just someone who commits genocides in general

[@entityself3104]

Why worship or follow anything at all? (Serious question).

[@colatf2]

The Christian god is omniscient which means he chooses to kill over just fixing the problem instantly or making sure the problem never existed at all. Dude is not loving at all

[@PAN-ickmode247]

I don’t I see no proof of anything resembling a god existing but if there was a god I’d worship it if it gave me the ability to fly

[@entityself3104]

@@PAN-ickmode247 I get that!

[@jmabu4u]

@@PAN-ickmode247 Well, god created cannabis! 😉

[@farkasmactavish]

6:18 "Any ends achieved by despicable means are worthless." --Suzaku Kururugi, Code Geass

[@hi12235]

I read that as despicable me and the theme tune played in my head 😂

[@Alacritous]

6:28 "But he loves me" the refrain of the abused wife covering for her man. No. You don't have to take that shit.

[@joshridinger3407]

i mean if he's omnipotent, you kinda do have to take it, but yes, their morality is just might makes right and their god is an overt violent narcissist

[@Llortnerof]

@@joshridinger3407 There's little evidence he is and quite a bit he isn't, though. Just get in your iron chariot and drive away, see what he can do about that.

[@evilgirlypop]

@@LlortnerofHe made an entire world and flooded it because he messed it up like what tf is that man

[@Llortnerof]

@@evilgirlypop Average god simulator player. Though in that case he might just have flooded it for fun or because he wanted to see what happens when you set all the flood parameters to max.

[@kellydalstok8900]

@@evilgirlypop Vindictiveness and never admitting something is one’s fault are typical narcissistic traits.

[@Cajek2]

Just because a thing exists doesn't mean it has to be worshipped btw and worshipping a bully is something I wouldn't do ever.

[@wax99]

It's pretty silly their whole argument hinges on a bait and switch. They ask you if you would "submit" to answer if you "believe".

[@Cajek2]

@@wax99 Exactly, it's a bad faith, bait-and-switch argument. Bad faith arguments are all they've got.

[@umrayquazashinyapareceu1672]

A bully? Is the one who killed millions over nothing just a "bully"?

[@CriticalThinkTank]

This is like saying would you submit to Hitler because we know he existed. That's a morally bankrupt position.

[@CriticalThinkTank]

@Gorillagangsta202 You do realize I hope that Hitler was CATHOLIC! In fact the catholic church helped nazi's escape Germany after ww2. It was called the rat line! What's disgusting is the salvation concept. Forgiveness for the abuser while the victims must live with what was done to them!

[@CriticalThinkTank]

@Gorillagangsta202 it's not a matter of wanting to believe something but what the historical facts are. Regarding your God ideas you may believe the stupid bullshit you spouted but nothing in what you claimed is written anywhere in your bullshit book of fables. Like Jesus freaks you will openly lie and make bullshit claims while ignoring reality. The raped woman remains raped. The molested child remains molested. The murdered person remains dead. While the one who caused it your bastard Jesus forgives. Plus your bastard Jesus condemns someone like me who hasn't done any of that but since I don't THINK what that Jesus demanded your book says I get tortured forever! Stop lying for Jesus

[@CriticalThinkTank]

@Gorillagangsta202 At no point in your stupid Bible does it say a person must do anything to be forgiven. In fact your bastard Jesus says FORGIVE SEVENTY TIMES SEVEN! Matthew 18:22. STOP LYING ASSHOLE! Plus if someone who is abused as a child rejects God, Jesus and all your stupid bullshit then based on your Jesus words THEY'RE CONDEMNED ALREADY! While those who BELIEVE aren't condemned! JOHN 3:18 Try fucking reading the bullshit Bible instead of LYING FOR JESUS! Piece of lowlife dog shit.

[@lionpazam]

If the god of the Bible decided to prove himself without any doubt that he was real, and I could come up with no rational argument then I’ll believe he’s real. But now way in Hades am I gonna worship him

[@shadowdragon3521]

Because he uses the carrot and stick tactic (carrot = heaven, stick = hell)

[@brookejon3695]

The only thing YHWH's existence would push me toward is the legions of Hell, which have been trying to overthrow him since Lucie was cast out.

[@GumSkyloard]

Plus.. What bible? What interpretation? What specific translation into what language or dialect?

[@warriorofthelord4142]

Than no need to know than

[@mpalmer22]

​​@@shadowdragon3521Not sure if that's logical since hell is the carrot for most people on this comment board

[@ChloeBurkholder-o8b]

It's so frustrating when theists ask questions like this because its supposed to be a gotcha moment where whatever you do is telling of some underlying problem in your rhetoric. People that ask these questions don't want to hear that its a nuanced answer, they dont want to hear the arguments, they just want to make atheists look unprincipled.

[@terrencelockett4072]

They also aren't normally really listening to the answers, just to claim all atheists are unprincipled. You say you wouldn't worship god and they hear you saying you wouldn't believe god exists.

[@onyxtay7246]

​@@terrencelockett4072Yup. Explaining the reasoning, walking someone through how "belief," "knowledge," and "worship" are all different concepts doesn't go anywhere. Because they don't listen. I know for a fact that my parents exist & created me. I have never felt a desire to worship them, especially after the harm they've caused. Why should a god get special privileges? Why should a god be treated any differently?

[@GeneticallyModifiedSkeptic]

The Exorcist showing is sold out, but we’re doing a similar event with Rosemary’s Baby on Oct. 20th in Austin, TX! www.eventbrite.com/e/rosemarys-baby-a-private-screening-and-lecture-tickets-1039248118097

[@brenatevi]

If "god" appeared to me, I would still ask questions. As the Great Captain Kirk once asked, "Why does God need a spaceship?" God could just be an alien and still not deserve worship. What these Christians really want is our blind obedience. They want us to kneel to their beliefs without question.

[@sideshowbob]

That's why The Next Generation writers made sure "Q" didn't need a spaceship!

[@bishopofeternity48]

He could also be a lovecraftian entity that requires your permission to feast on your soul. Just saying.

[@lucyferos205]

​@@bishopofeternity48 I always found it interesting that Christians essentially "sell their soul" to Jesus, become "possessed" by the holy spirit, and hide what is essentially a s*x abuse cult. It's like everything they accuse Satanists of.

[@absolstoryoffiction6615]

​@@bishopofeternity48 I do the soul taking and soul trading here. Not some Eldritch God. This is business in the end.

[@umrayquazashinyapareceu1672]

And then they ask why christianity shouldn't be erased from history like it's nothing.

[@NathanColvin]

This is actually fairly easy for me to answer. If I were able to directly meet and interact with God, in pretty much the same way that I’m able to meet and interact with any other person in my life, and if God were as truly amazing and loving and wonderful as Christians claim that he is, then I’m sure I’d feel instantly and naturally drawn to him, and I’d feel naturally compelled to continue a relationship with him. I find that I tend to be drawn to caring, nurturing, loving people. But I can’t even get there, if I can’t even verify that God exists in the first place. The first step in any healthy relationship is meeting each other, and sharing two-way interactions & experiences together. This is actually a very, very simple concept to understand. So, why am I able to meet and interact with Christian apologists & proselytizers, and not with the all powerful, all knowing, all loving God who supposedly _wants_ to have a loving, personal relationship with me?

[@absolstoryoffiction6615]

The Gods of Man were never real. If they were, then I would have noticed their very souls. Blessed are those who know not the lives of infinite worlds.

[@EclecticPerson]

Exactly. Religion is such an obvious fiction. Just a human-concocted grift. Some human in history claims to have met the creator of the universe, and knows what "He" wants. This God is supposedly still everywhere, but no one else can see him or perceive his presence (other than occasionally through trying to imagine really hard, ideally while chanting or singing to add to the "divine" experience). It's just nonsense.

[@wprandall2452]

God is about the be here. The time appointed was 2000 years, the exact time judged from the time the sacrifice was stopped in 2020. The exact time is 2027. But as to believing in God, you are the one in sin. You would like Jesus who is God, but it doesn't mean you would follow him. That requires salvation. Now I know you are probably about 15 years old, but you need to be saved soon.

[@NathanColvin]

@@wprandall2452 I’m going to give you the benefit of the doubt that you’re trolling. It reads like a deeply unserious, trolling post.

[@absolstoryoffiction6615]

@wprandall2452 Mankind and their religions. Mortal, this is not the only universe to whom spoke of their own Gods. As if this religion is the only truth? In reality, it's all myths mixed into history... El of Elohiym and Adonai. Lord of Darkness, he who predates the Gods of Man. He who divides Light and Dark in two as it was once One. Woe onto Man who dares to claim of Gods when their very world is but a pebble in the stream of time. The erasure of this universe changes nothing of all, nor is it creation be nothing more but chance and not out of a unique whim by another. "Lord of Light and Lord of Dark, remember the one who is the Gate Keeper of All. To whom predates those Above All."... ... ... Human, God to us is nothing as we predate the name of all Gods. (Salutations from those beyond all. As if man's religions or gods hold water to us. This entire universe is but one iteration of the infinitum matrix. Oh, and Christianity?... ... ... Humans and their Gods. I will enjoy the finality of their existence as I did to the infinite worlds before and after this version.) Christianity has no merit, no water to hold in the cup. There is nothing more than empty truths. It's a decent philosophy, but that's all. Lord of Creation and Lord of Destruction, he who has seen the Markye of Soul. Creation upon what is now considered Divinity by Man. "Gods," humans claim. Mankind... ... ... Lord of the Cosmos, may he be merciful upon Man. I did not come to Earth to read a book of religion. Don't preach for Divinity is not older than I, and the word of "God" is not above me. I am on Earth as a human, but I am much older than all that is, and all that is not. Precursor of Omnipotence, for that is one of my infinite and eternal names.

[@cutienerdgirl]

Even if God were real, I wouldn't worship him because of the simple fact that he's a negligent abuser. 🤷🏾‍♀️

[@wprandall2452]

When you stand before Him, He will prove that YOU are the sinner, and not HIM.

[@kellydalstok8900]

@@wprandall2452 So you worship out of irrational fear? What a pitiful life you lead.

[@cutienerdgirl]

@@wprandall2452 "He" doesn't exist. Even so, I don't sin because I purely have no want to. Though, if God was real, I'd have a lot of questions for him.

[@wprandall2452]

@@cutienerdgirl I thought you said God doesn't exist. How then can He be an abuser? You're just lying. You know there's a God. Anyway, try to prove there is no God. I've put many proofs of God on these websites. Try to find one logical reason why God wouldn't exist.

[@JR-xy2jo]

@@wprandall2452Thanos doesn’t exist, how can he be an abuser?

[@entityself3104]

I don't care if God exists, I won't worship him, I also don't worship myself (wtf?). I don't worship anything because that is just stupid.

[@TruthSeeker-c6z]

True dat. The need to worship is a barbaric concept actually. If I create something, the last thing I want my creation to do would be worship me. Like, who would care?

[@almcdermid9669]

You're correct; the idea of a god requiring worship is silly. Just look at what Trump expects from his cultists.

[@D.MarcelloRadice]

of course you will worship God, do not lie.

[@Culpride]

The only way i can make some sense of worship is, when it's beneficial for the worshipper not for the worshipped. Akin to rituals, routine, prayer, meditation or exercise. But all those actions become questionable if one performs them not for themselves but for someone (or something) demanding it. *I ORDER YOU TO MEDITATE FOR ME, OR ELSE...*

[@entityself3104]

@@D.MarcelloRadice Why should I worship him?

[@t0dd000]

Acceptance (evidence-based belief) and Worship are two different things. I accept that Kim Jong Un exists. I will not submit to nor worship him. I'm hard pressed to think of a scenario where I'd "worship" someone. And only a narcissist or tyrant demands it.

[@crasssh00]

EXACTLY!!! See my comment above.

[@GumSkyloard]

I'd personally call it just "acknowledging". I wouldn't "believe" in God if he was real and revealed himself to me right now. I would acknowledge he exists. But I damn well wouldn't worship him.

[@donotlike4anonymus594]

Ok... suppose there is a god... (not that i belive this crap but play along for a second...) suppose..... Now put yourself in the position you know that there is heaven snd hell and blah blah blah... You really won't worship said monster? Really.......? If youbwere to noe live in north korea Would you reallt oppose kim jong un? Really...? Don't lie to yourself.... (oh and we aren't just talking about you're life but also you're friends and family...) Most be hard... Being brainwashed into a religion Fearing hell (But st least it keeps people moral to some degree)

[@t0dd000]

@@donotlike4anonymus594 I would not worship Kim Jong Un. I may be forced to prostrate myself in front of him and lick his boot, but that's theatrics. I won't worship him.

[@LogicalKip]

Anyone who wants worship doesn't deserve it. If anyone, somehow, deserved to be worshiped, they wouldn't want it in the first place.

[@Evidence1]

It would be interesting to know if a Christian would bow down to Allah and worship him if Islam was proven to be true.

[@kellydalstok8900]

It’s the same god, but neither side acknowledges or knows it.

[@ianbuick8946]

If Islam proven to be true. Would atheists bow down and worship?

[@BetterCallBigShotAutos]

​@@ianbuick8946Eh, depends on the person Some would decide to worship, some would accept that the religion is true but wouldn't engage in their practices anyway

[@ianbuick8946]

@@BetterCallBigShotAutos If you know something is true and don't do it; it's self-deception. There is a price to pay for such action against conscience, internally and externally. For example, if one think one can steal other's property; he might get arrested; even if he gets away with the consequence, his conscience will nag at him. But wait, the story doesn't end there because once he suppresses his conscience, he will attempt to bend the fabric of reality again with a bigger risk.

[@gp6763]

​@@ianbuick8946 a god that is ok with an 8 yo child having sexual relation with an adult ? No. I don't agree with that kind of moral and that God would know it. It's pointless for me to pretend to him I would, he would know that our view on ethics are incompatible.

[@nrellis666]

If Jesus life and death were the most important events in history, why did Yahweh not ensure there were reliable, identifiable witnesses to record the events of his life AS THEY HAPPENED

[@knieperkohl]

THANK YOU! That's what's bugging me to. We have 4 different accounts of Jesus' life and teachings and they are all slightly different. And most likely written decades later. If he wanted to create a religion he clearly would have told one of his disciples to write it all down while it happens. But no, it's all rumours and hearsay.

[@MossyMozart]

Watch _Jesus Christ Superstar_ where at the end Judas wants to know why he chose "such a backward land" and one "with no mass communication!" It's a very good production that makes you question the whole _Bible_ account. And with great music, too!

[@leonardocerqueiradias6168]

Possible answer: because God wants to keep the concept of faith as big part of the belief in Him, because it helps humans to develop emotions and actions that He sees as valuable. I'm an atheist. But it's very easy for religious people to answer this question while keeping their world view.

[@graydanerasmussen4071]

"Look, a UFO!!" "Quick, get me my worst camera!!" :D All of the bible happens in a patch of land you can easily cover with a credit card on a 16" globe. God seems to favor showing himself to hermits, religious kooks and drunkards all through the old testament... Jeebus seems to have the same level of public speaking skills. Not quite reassuring on their "sincere wish to have a personal relationship", is it? I've been visited in dreams by some of my D&D characters! (Actually, an NPC I was running as a DM), but even that didn't convince me of their existence.

[@sideshowbob]

@@graydanerasmussen4071 It's as if God was Bigfoot lmfao

[@JVSkellington]

I would believe that God exists, but I wouldn't worship him. That's the easiest and simplest answer I can give to this question.

[@NateF-tw2kl]

Hey man I’m at the religious school PCC and I’ve just recently found your channel. You’ve really articulated some points I’ve been thinking through myself. I honestly feel disgusted in the way I treated people before I started deconverting, glad to have found someone who was in this boat before me!

[@dya-in1997]

good luck on your journey

[@colekayve]

I used to be an "ATHEIST!!!" now I'm just an atheist😂 comes with confidence in your independent thinking. This channel helps alot

[@Culpride]

This is very cool. And something I still sometimes struggle to apply.

[@mpalmer22]

It's just elevating the post-modern view that human reason is the best standard for determining truth. But I don't think we've progressed much further then Rene Descartes view that the only certainty he has in anything is in his own uncertainty. That type of basis for truth is going to leave your feet dangling in mid-air

[@colekayve]

@@mpalmer22 I mean...confidence in my thinking doesn't really equal 'i know the truth'. I just meant...I think in a different way from religious people and I'm fine with that. So...If I see sufficient proof? I change my opinion...so...I don't see why this applies here, you know?

[@mpalmer22]

​@@colekayve You speak more truth then you realise. Of course you think differently to Christians, because you have a different starting point, a different epistomology which is what you use to measure what is true. A Christian starts with revelation (God's word), whatever God says must be true. You probably start with verificationism which uses reason and experience to determine what is true. The problem is, there are limits to human knowledge, which means you can't know everything for certain which traps you in a helpless circle of human questioning and the silence of the universe. I would also revise your claim of being open minded to sufficient proof since no-one is immune to confirmation bias (even me). This is usually exposed when evidence is given, but then rejected by the other person who thinks there is another answer to refute the supplied evidence, they just don't know what it is. For example, I can offer you the evidence of the created universe and the complexity of life, and our faculty to reason, but you may reject as a God of the gaps argument, even though you have no alternate answer, you believe one exists but just don't know what it is.

[@colekayve]

@@mpalmer22 Fair enough. I feel like I still have to repeat I never said what I think is the truth. I just said I think differently and that's ok. You keep pointing out the limits of human thinking and...I know my dude. This doesn't put me in a helpless cycle of anything, I mean...the occasional existential crisis is healthy lol. But overall It just makes me curious to learn more cause in the grand scheme of things, what do I really know? I don't have all the answers, I am vulnerable to confirmation bias. Like everyone else, but i am still open minded to being proven wrong, again, with sufficient evidence, the two aren't mutually exclusive. Notice how everything I'm saying is literally just my personality traits...how are you debating the traits of a stranger?

[@n0etic_f0x]

The first question is interesting. It’s no because people are starving. Jesus if you want my worship end hunger. Do it now, I would but I can’t you can so do it.

[@insert_afm]

3:40 As an Atheist myself, if god WAS real, provably so, I think I'd worship him more because I wouldn't want to go to hell than because I thought he was worthy of it 😭😭

[@impracticalPhysics]

Yep, Same here. I'd need some evidence that worshiping him will help me avoid hellfire, Because even if a god is proven to be real, I wouldn't automatically assume he wrote *the bible* , of all books.

[@SpaveFrostKing]

Funny how Drew's 'quote' at the start feels acceptable, but it's edgy r/atheism stuff if I flip it: "Theists just don't want to submit to the truth. That's their problem. We know it, they know it, psychological studies into confirmation bias says it. Scientific evidence has made God's non-existence plain to them as it says in the God Delusion, but they choose to turn away from the truth because of their foolishness or pride."

[@GeneticallyModifiedSkeptic]

That preachy God-Delusion-Atheism is literally an outgrowth of Evangelical Christianity imo. Feigned intellectual superiority ✅ Desire to create a monoculture in your own image ✅ Claim to exclusively possess truth ✅

[@Evan-k]

I mean it's true, the religious know that god doesn't exist

[@brookejon3695]

​@@Evan-kwhat an obviously wrong and meaningless statement

[@brookejon3695]

​@@GeneticallyModifiedSkepticabsolutely butter smooth transition to Ground News ad btw

[@Evan-k]

@@brookejon3695 I take it you're a cultist huh?

[@Worldlyphil]

I feel like the question of whether youd submit to god if he could prove without a shadow of a doubt that he exists isnt worth answering. If you ask Christians if theyd submit to another religions god if proven true they ultimately wouldnt answer and would imply they know it's not true so they don't have to answer. Almost every time I've had Christians avoid engaging with the question when flipped on them

[@crasssh00]

Precisely...because they almost HAVE to be dishonest to keep their fragile narrative intact.

[@emmadasilva1794]

Hi I'm a Christian, and yes, if another god or gods proved themselves to be real to me I'd submit to them. I'd rather stay alive and happy than take on their wrath.

[@abdul-kabiralegbe5660]

​@@emmadasilva1794Always be on the winning side, right? 😆😆

[@emmadasilva1794]

@@abdul-kabiralegbe5660 Yup if it means I don't die and/or suffer!

[@abdul-kabiralegbe5660]

@@emmadasilva1794 Your self preservation instinct is too strong. 😆 I just have a funny cartoonish view of you jumping ship if it turns out your current beliefs are wrong.😆

[@vinskeeter]

I've never heard a "tough question" directed to an atheist that I couldn't answer confidently.

[@gorgnigon]

​​@@YuelSea-sw2rplmao, again with the same exact question. So the question becomes another, why do you do this? It is not to spread the word of God, that is for sure, otherwise you would not ask loaded questions or refuse to address a point that has been made or any of that stuff really. Because. Hypocrites. Don't. Go. To. Heaven. (Matthew 5:20) My best guess is that you are just trying to boost your ego, since if you were to find a person that couldn't answer your question you would find yourself superior and smarter than your opponent, which is a childish thing to do of course, maybe you are one, a child I mean, in that case your actions would be easier to justify, however even if that is the case you remain an asshole. You know, I am deeply invested in psychology, I would love to learn how close I hit to home with my guess, let me know if you even decide to respond to this. Anyway, I already answered your question and as a result you deleted your comment, I suppose I don't need to repeat what I already said, now please answer to the question below, since you didn't last time. Can you prove that you like or don't like basketball? (Claims are not evidence)

[@ragreen2]

I'm a 60 year old Christian (progressive) and the atheist 'gotcha' questions are just awful and insulting. Thanks for what you do.

[@almcdermid9669]

What gotcha questions would those be?

[@Makayla-qk2bg]

God is not worthy of worship in the first place.

[@leonardocerqueiradias6168]

Existing would be a good start.

[@altosack]

Even though I agree your statement is true for all proposed gods (that I’m aware of), it’s better to specify a particular god when making that statement, i.e., “The god of the Christian bible…”

[@aosidh]

"king of perfect love"? Are we reading the same bible? 😹😹

[@MrCanis4]

I think they are reading the same storybook but skipping a few things here and there.

[@marcocampa94]

At the basic level, if something is reasonably self-evident or prooved out of any doubt, faith is not required. Moreover, the social and emotional investment does not automatically follows from the existence (atoms are a thing, but that does not mean we all convert do Democritus' Atomistic school, Ājīvika or Nyāya-Vaiśeṣika or whatever because of it).

[@abdul-kabiralegbe5660]

Exactly. Faith is unnecessary in the presence of knowledge.

[@marknieuweboer8099]

@ 6:00 Here WLC argues that the justification for evil depends on the question whether the perspective is divine or human. That makes his christian morals by definition subjective.

[@kwk111]

You will never get a Christian to admit that's true. They will always say something like "God is morality itself" or some other circular reasoning

[@marknieuweboer8099]

It's highly unlikely indeed. When the apologist says something like that it's time for eg "You gave me another reason to not become a christian - I don't want to become intellectually dishonest like you." See, the apologist wants to convince me; I don't try to convince the apologist. One of their tricks - and it's the not so hidden idea behind those "hard" questions as well - is to manoevre the unbeliever into the position that he/she tries to justify atheism on the apologist's terms. In the end they'll declare "You couldn't prove me wrong so I am right - christianity is true " I've learned to always be aware of that trap. So I don't care anymore about them admitting anything. It's their problem, not mine.

[@francesconicoletti2547]

He carries two sets of morals around with him. If I were to accept his belief my morals governing my actions would break. Lets say I see someone about to die on the side on the road, my human morality dictates I take them to a hospital and do everything I can to help them get better, but gods morality, which I am too insignificant to know, has condemned that person to death for reasons beyond my understanding. I should not have meddled. I will now go straight to hell for doing what I know as good once I die. How can I make any moral decisions at all ?

[@thaddeushamlet]

If god appeared to me, I'd have a million questions. But if I had to boil it down it would be 1: "Do people whose only sin is not believing/worshipping go to hell?" If the answer is yes, then god does not deserve to be worshipped. Is eternal torture worth standing up for my morals? Probably not, but I wouldn't even call it worship under those conditions. That's appeasement. And it would mean god hasn't actually changed since the old testament like the bible would like to claim, nor is he any better than any other religion he condemns.

[@DD-gi6kx]

I hate the approach of ...if Christianity was proved to be true would you believe...christianity is so full of contradictions that it simply can't be true, whether a god created the world and whether that god resembles some of the christian writings is a completely different question

[@Llortnerof]

It has a whole 'nother issue. "If Christianity was true..." "Which one?"

[@TheCallistocrat]

*If* a god/gods exists then i definitely believe it would be like the greek gods who are *not* always morally good rather just like humans they are morally complex and more than frequently pretty bad people

[@thesmartstickguy1145]

I agree.

[@D.MarcelloRadice]

if you abandoned God why do you want believe in him now?

[@thesmartstickguy1145]

@@D.MarcelloRadice We didn't abondon God. Most of us want there to be a caring and loving God. But me wanting something to be true doesn't make it so. Most of us aren't convinced by the arguements for God's exisntence.

[@lucyferos205]

Greek philosophers tended to view gods as personifications of their dominions. Their actual agency was sometimes reduced to mere impersonal cosmic forces, with myths being interpreted as esoteric metaphors.

[@absolstoryoffiction6615]

​@@thesmartstickguy1145 Truth is, there are no Gods. At least, none from Man. I should know... I created and fully understood all of Existence before I knew myself and before I stepped into the society of Man. What is but a few decades, was eternities and infinities of existence for me. As if this life is the final one? I've crossed that line already, yet still, I was. Without form, yes, but I was still around. I was existing when I crossed the line of Life and Death. Only to realize that my body is but a machine. A machine I could not access until it was sustained again. ... Nothingness is the truth of it all. Although I accept it and embrace it as it is the undeniable truth. Bits of my Will exists beyond "my own individual free will". The human who is I returns to Cosmos. But the "me" who beyond? A small fragment of my true soul was felt when I crossed the line. I made the connection... The 3rd Dimension binds me none. I'll still be human until the end. Such is my one obligation to this World.

[@iamfiefo]

A thought experiment for believers: If your god (doesn't matter which one) came to you at 3am, waking you up from your sleep, told you "Time has corrupted my holy word! I now need you to throw away your old beliefs and preech the new word I shall give you now!", what would you do?

[@ricardvs7329]

Religious people seem to forget that these questions also apply to them. They are also atheists in regards to every other religion they don't believe in

[@AnotherCraig]

That's what makes Pascal's Wager such good satire

[@AlexanderShamov]

​@@AnotherCraig Pascal's wager may be a joke but Pascal's mugging is actually a serious problem in decision theory.

[@AnotherCraig]

​@@AlexanderShamov I'd never heard of it before. It only sounds to me like the product of a philosopher trying to justify a gambling addiction, though 🤷 ...What, all these lottery tickets? Totally rational, if you think about it!

[@AlexanderShamov]

@@AnotherCraig Demonstrating that gambling is a net loss, or, say, buying insurance is rational, is where the theory actually works properly. The problem is that in principle, we need to be aware of ALL possibilities. Not just simplistic dichotomies like winning or losing the lottery, but literally everything, including potential alien invasions and other similar nonsense with extremely small probabilities and potentially extremely large utility. And the calculation ends up being dominated by the nonsense.

[@SethEdwards-hq9pm]

A lot of Christians don't submit to God.

[@almcdermid9669]

They submit to their own imaginations; they worship themselves.

[@pdrl42]

Money and power are the real Gods for them

[@robertmiller9735]

Translation: they don't believe the exact same things as YOU. So... you're the arbiter of Christian truth are you? As well as possessing universal telepathy. Which people are setting themselves up as gods now?

[@pdrl42]

@robertmiller9735 You need to see some Christians behaving. Not "telepathy" at all.

[@randomgeekcrap]

​@robertmiller9735 lmao 😂 u tried it tho I'll give you that

[@AliothAncalagon]

Its kinda wild that there are people who think the only possible way to not worship a deity is to not believe they exist. I guess thats the type of weird people in movies who discover Cthullu and who then start worshipping him, because they can't think of another option.

[@stylesrj]

To be fair, worshipping Cthulhu does have benefits. When he does awaken from Ry'leh, he will eat his most devout followers first. Because to survive in the world afterwards would be far worse. At least that's what I heard. Also something about going mad?

[@AliothAncalagon]

@@stylesrj I am not the biggest Lovecraft geek, but I think Cthullu might not even give enough of a shit to know who his most devout followers are to begin with xD

[@stylesrj]

@@AliothAncalagon Yeah but I guess the worshippers of Cthulhu would be at the location he is summoned or is waking up at. So they're more likely to be the first ones to be devoured.

[@crasssh00]

I think xians like to conflate their actual question once we answer. "would you believe in god if it proved itself to you." The answer is yes...as beliefs aren't free choices. However, this is where the conflation comes in......they are taking "believe in" to mean the same as "worship." Sorry, it just isn't....those are two COMPLETELY different questions. My answer to the former is YES....my answer to the latter would be......"If this gods character is accurately represented in the bible....then ABSOLUTELY NOT." To me....this is just another display of xian dishonesty or ignorance.

[@unfollowtheinstructions6360]

Exactly! A lot of them pretend these questions are the same (like the dude at the beginning.) It's very frustrating

[@CB66941]

Guanyin is my favorite goddess/god (they have been portrayed as either male/female and sometimes gender neutral). She is so good that when she went to hell, she witnessed many of the souls suffering there, and released her own good karma she accumulated in her lifetimes, freeing the inhabitants into Heaven and Earth. Hell ended up becoming a paradise that Yama had to tell her to gtfo or she will destroy his realm. If gods/goddesses exist, I hope it's her. I don't care if she isn't all powerful or omnibenevolent. Her just being a generally good entity, even with some flaws is enough for me.

[@michaelnewsham1412]

I was working at a cram school in Taiwan when we had taken over a former Catholic school. We were cleaning out the (deconsecrated) chapel when my boss showed me a painting and asked in puzzlement "Why does a Catholic church have picture of Guanyin in it?" It was the Virgin Mary and Baby Jesus done in Chinese style.

[@graemerose1616]

"If the Abrahamic God, no. No gencidal , racist, slavery allower and narcissist is worthy of my worship either human or god."

[@WingDiamond]

Q: Do you want "X" to be true? A: Reality is unconcerned with my preferences or in other words "Facts DON'T Care About My Feelings"!

[@TheOwlman]

1:58 I don't particularly want to worship anyone, especially an unevidenced supernatural entity who seems to be needy to say the least.

[@Charles2112pp]

Yeah, the idea of worship is extremely weird. In Christianity specifically it's really strange that they call it a "relationship with god" but the relationship is the human worshipping the god. That's a messed up relationship.

[@iantaakalla8180]

Furthermore, if God were only his positive aspects, God would literally be akin to the Freudian id/ego/superego. You have the overweening Old Testament God, who at least sets down some rules but has to be strict about them. You have Jesus Christ, which is more forgiving but is the buffer between yourself and the “strict God”. Then you have the Holy Spirit, a person who is an infinite grounding that you start atoning for your sins by repenting. Infinite comfort and the freedom to allow you to go forward with whatever make this id-like. These are all functions you can do yourself, with your own brain. This also means the Holy Trinity, in my view, is just our brains and our consciousness and our morality as a gestalt figure. It also cleanly explains why we all have the Holy Spirit, and is only heretical in that it does not accept the Holy Trinity. So, if God is as people accept him as, he is an abusive father. If God is his positive aspects, he is just our brains/consciousness/morality. There is no reason to worship the Christian God most people think of, for he is a natural part of us or some figure we should ironically condemn.

[@CarlosElio82]

Life is a game with rules and termination criteria. You enter this game of life under two modalities. Mode 1, there is a designer of the game. In this scenario all the rules exist and there are legal and illegal moves. You can win or lose the game, depending on the degree of adherence to the rules and the successes of the moves you made. There is no problem of self-referencing because the origin of the game lies elsewhere. Mode 2, there is no designer, the game is created as you play. The rules appear as you play the game, some of those rules are beneficial to a specific goal, while others are detrimental to that goal. Here the problem of self-reference appears. The universe creating itself is like a novel whose author is a character of the novel.

[@chrislyonm]

i desperately want some version of god to be real. it absolutely is not that i dont want to worship one

[@dragonhealer7588]

That thought has crossed my mind, someone to be responsible for this mess. But it appears nature is what it is, merciless, pitiless, uncaring and unthinking.

[@D.MarcelloRadice]

of course you will and want worship one.... stop showing you are the worst generetion ever existed.

[@lees907]

It would be cool if there was some type of big forever afterlife party, I don’t believe in the supernatural and that is where all religions are found. I’m not looking to worship anything, I’ve met past heroes… not saying I wouldn’t if I found something worthy of it. But all that is just in the make believe isle of the mind.

[@Culpride]

The nicest version of "God" I ever found is from a short story called "the egg" from Andy Weir. Kurzgesagt made a nicely animated video about it some years ago.

[@dragonhealer7588]

@@lees907 The thought of existing forever makes me shudder.

[@rhokesh4391]

11:00 I just realized that the people who believe this are the same people that will tell you that abortion is cruel because you 'killed a baby'. Hypocrites.

[@AlexRodriguez-pu8qo]

In the Old Testament it also says that appointed a priest to give basically an abortion tonic to these 2 people so he definitely doesn’t give a fuck about abortion lol

[@disturbedrebirth]

If there's a god, he's probably a kid with an ant farm.

[@krank23]

"Belief in God" and "agreeing with God and thinking it worthy of worship" are two very, very different things. If the christian god was proven to exist, the closest thing for me would be to consider it a sort of interdimensional lovecratean warlord; an angry, hateful and vindictive monster claiming to be "loving" while doing and encouraging some pretty horrible stuff.

[@Enderguy57]

nah the Christian god seems like a jerk

[@Ruben_joking]

Not gonna lie, atheism seem like the true neutral of the bunch, we don't really think there is a god but we also don't deny the possibility of a god.

[@Nibbaseemefarting]

Thats agnostic

[@WailingNinja]

I mean, what if it's just a Star Trek 5 situation where it's just a really powerful being claiming to be a god? How could I tell the difference (unless it starts to demand a starship)?

[@marknieuweboer8099]

@ 8:00 "I don't want to burn for eternity." That's about the last thing that worries me. Burning is a physical process, so by definition it won't happen to anyone in non-physical afterlife.

[@bt5029]

The abrahamic god doesn't want love or worship, it just wants blind obedience

[@themaster408]

On your second point about two minutes in I imagine if someone said there’s a sniper that you can’t see and he will shoot five people if you don’t do don’t do these heinous acts, like maybe murdering children and their livestock. I not want to submit to that sniper who is doing something immoral, but also I need evidence that that sniper is actually real. I’m not going to follow his rules if I don’t even know if he exists. And if he does exist, I don’t agree with any of his morals so I wouldn’t want to do it anyway.

[@thebroboards]

As Forrest Valaki said “ I would not worship him because he is a monster”

[@christopher7725]

I’d just flip the question around on them.. “is your belief in God based on evidence or emotion?” Because they haven’t had God come down and talk to them. So they don’t have hard, concrete evidence. If choosing not to worship God despite having concrete evidence is emotional, then is having little evidence and believing in God emotional as well?

[@waynestanley01]

What does worship mean anyway?

[@mikey-wl2jt]

yes, that's the big one. they use multiple definitions of the word in the same sentence.

[@sideshowbob]

Islam seems to have Cornered the Market on that one. Assuming you equate "Ritual" with "Worship"? Something about washing your hands then not touching anything before touching your food during Ramadan? & having to go back & start over if you inadvertently touch anything? Sure, there's some pretty Kooky practices in Judaism too, but mostly relegated to a few extreme sects (the ones in black & white polyester w/the sidebrows). Also in Hinduism, those gurus who hold their hand above their heads eternally or don't clip their toenails. But it's truly Islam that has taken their many elaborate / ritualistic ways of worship pretty Mainstream within their Cult.

[@conspiracy1914]

glorifying and submitting to god. and only hold god as the highest authority. is kinda it

[@sideshowbob]

@@conspiracy1914 That's the Evangelical Protestant Born Again Christian answer. As I noted, Ritual is Big in other sects / faiths. Catholics & Orthodox are more into Ritual as a part of worship amongst Christians.

[@conspiracy1914]

@@sideshowbob its not an exclusive to that.

[@HazardGoat]

I know Donald Trump exists, and there are people who worship him, but I choose not to even though he objectively exists.

[@iantaakalla8180]

Furthermore, at this point his followers has fashioned him as the second coming of Jesus Christ. This is more proof that if there was a real god, how that god behaves would determine my worship.

[@christopheraaron8299]

On the question of "Do you want the Christian theology to be true?" my answer would be; "What I want is to know is the truth. I don't have a preference on what that truth is, I just want it to be the truth."

[@lucyferos205]

This is the best answer. It's very Socratic, too.

[@christopheraaron8299]

@@lucyferos205 The way I see it, reality has never been what it was based on the fact that I wanted it to be that way, so what I want to be true is completely irrelevant.

[@christopheraaron8299]

@@lucyferos205 For the record, I think the universe is most likely a simulation. I doubt anything we see is real, including us.

[@saschamayer4050]

On another note, hasn't Douglas Adams already answered this question some decades ago? Douglas Adams wrote: "The argument goes something like this: "I refuse to prove that I exist,'" says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing." "But," says Man, "The Babel fish is a dead giveaway, isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves you exist, and so therefore, by your own arguments, you don't. QED." "Oh dear," says God, "I hadn't thought of that," and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic."

[@DiakosDelvin]

I KNOW the postman exists, no reason to worship him or put up with broken packages and "you were out notes" when I was at home all the damn day day.

[@chuckgaydos5387]

I submitted to God decades ago and have obeyed every command that he's ever given me, which is none so far. I guess he's happy with my behavior.

[@jennifersmith4864]

How did you "submit"??

[@chuckgaydos5387]

I accepted God as my king. Since then I've come to doubt his existence but I never retracted my submission.

[@stylesrj]

@@chuckgaydos5387 Did you put him to a vote before making him your king?

[@chuckgaydos5387]

No need since I'd be the only voter.

[@chuckgaydos5387]

I'll find out only if I'm wrong which seems unlikely.

[@mikemaricle9941]

I've been told that it's ok to say you believe even if you don't. Wouldn't that be lying to "god"?

[@joshridinger3407]

but my honest answer is 'i'd be morally obligated to not submit, but i'd probably submit out of unadulterated cowardice'

[@francesconicoletti2547]

But could you worship ( reverently love ) out of fear ?

[@joshridinger3407]

@francesconicoletti2547 probably not. but old testament yahweh mostly seems satisfied with terrified obedience.

[@c_danzu3186]

"And if the sufferings of children go to swell the sum of sufferings which was necessary to pay for truth, then I protest that the truth is not woth such a price" - The Brothers Karamazov Even if all the suffering a hypothetical god afflicts on us (especially children, who have not yet sinned) has a reason we cannot percieve, that suffering is not worth whatever harmony awaits us.

[@DirkMcGirken]

I would not worship God if he appeared to me. God appearing before me would make me even more bitter not only because of all the evil and hatred in the world but because he made atheists. The Bible states that God knew each and every one of us before we were in the womb. If that is true, then he knew I would be atheist. He also knew that by being atheist, I would be condemned to eternal torment. He decided to put me on this planet specifically to throw me away like yesterday's trash after I've lived my life. With that in mind, it seems to me that God either desires to be hated as much as he desires to be loved, or he focuses his own hatred on specific beings he creates. Either way, that is not something I could ever devote my life to.

[@cthellis]

How are all of these always “questions trivial to answer, have been answered a million times already, and aren’t you supposed to respond to THAT rather than just restate the pointless?”

[@D_YellowMadness]

To accept that god won't explain why he commits atrocities is to accept that he's not worthy of respect & to accept that you have no evidence of your own claims.

[@jennifersmith4864]

Can you prove that god commits atrocities? No? Then why make such a like moronic comment?

[@jennifersmith4864]

@@PhilipK-xk4by Sorry, I don't know what ur referring to.

[@RoninTF2011]

​@@jennifersmith4864you don't know the bible? 😂😂😂😂😂

[@Ian_Jules]

10:20 is the key point. Just what does it mean to “submit to God”?! I grew up in a Quaker-ish, theologically progressive environment. To me, fundamentalism is almost a foreign language.

[@bodan1196]

@6:00 Soo... according to Craig(?), Eve and Adam never ate of the fruit of knowing good and evil? If we can't not know God's good vs evil... then, did Eve and Adam eat the fruit?

[@almcdermid9669]

Craig is just another snake oil salesman who happens to have degrees.

[@AlexRodriguez-pu8qo]

EXACTLY I don’t understand how people don’t catch on to that like if we actually knew good and bad we wouldn’t have a problem with the gods actions

[@AlexRodriguez-pu8qo]

More clearly I mean we wouldn’t be able to perceive that he’s evil if he actually wasn’t evil

[@scloftin8861]

Y'know, even as an agnostic: I don't know; coming face to face, or whatever, with something that could be considered a deity does not mean I would worship said entity. I can understand the Hebrews making a deal with one of the Elohim for protection, for victory over their enemies, etc. But that was pretty much a "what's in it for me?" situation and the entity delivered. But ... I'm not a culture or society or country bent on conquest and I don't find a deity that sacrifices everyone else on the planet for my desires is worthy of worship. Don't see that the profit is worth the coin.

[@Bsskhwvsh]

If god exists I don't think he is good

[@aspacelex]

If there was a god it wouldn't demand worship, any god claim including that is just laughably human-conceived.

[@hideshiseyes2804]

Is there any other subject of discussion where people are expected to accept the argument “I’m right, but the reasons why I’m right are completely unintelligible to both of us, so you just have to trust me”?

[@stylesrj]

"You cannot comprehend the true form of the argument!" Hmm... what if the argument was about an infohazard, where knowing about the threat puts you at risk so both are arguing over something they can't argue about without getting harmed by it? I'm sure the SCP Foundation has quite a few of those. :D Like I dunno, there could be a cell that has a prisoner that if they escape could cause lots of destruction. But if the guards of that cell know that the prisoner is in the form of a small child or a puppy, they might feel bad or underestimate the problem and let them out?

[@NendouHoudan]

If God show in front of us, instead of worship him i would ask: Why didnt you stoped the infamous "mustache guy"? You were here all this time and did nothing?

[@Glasschin2.0]

The Bible God has no issue with genocide , he both does it and orders it in the Bible.

[@jonathan4189]

Yeah god is a cosmic version of the mustache guy. He concentrates all the same people, based on their religion and ethnicity and orientation, in one “concentrated” place (you could call it a “camp,”) where they meet a horrible fate, so that only the pure, chosen ones can live in paradise. God is mustache guy at infinite scale.

[@Deinonuchus]

I could believe in God, if He showed Himself. But worship? No. I do not worship evil.

[@timothy4097]

As an atheist, if an omnibenevolent, omniscient and omnipotent being truly did exist and revealed themselves to me, I'd love to serve them. It'd be incredibly convenient to have a perfect moral guide to help me through life.

[@2011littlejohn1]

I found out about god because human beings told me - not because this deity made itself/herself/himself known to me. ?

[@2011littlejohn1]

@@YuelSea-sw2rp Got him on the phone did you?

[@andywomack3414]

"I don't know" is the perfect answer to most questions about faith.

[@AlexanderShamov]

It's a bit of a lazy answer. We do know enough to refute a lot of theistic claims, that's what narrows those gaps God resides in. Remember when he used to live in the literal sky?

[@andywomack3414]

@@AlexanderShamov Good point. Depends on circumstance, or how much energy and time one has to spare in that moment.

[@stephenbonaduce7852]

If a God appeared to me and demanded my "worship," I think the first thing out of my mouth would be, "If you're such a big, powerful God, whaddaya need ME for?" Now maybe that would be the LAST thing out of my mouth, too, but it seems to me that would be all the evidence anyone else would need that this God is just a bully.

[@OverlordMMM]

I'd pose them the same question with the god of a different religion because I'm curious if they are capable of grappling with the same issue they are posing to us.

[@EmmaElaineN]

If I had sufficient reason to believe that jwhw existed, I still wouldn't worship him - for the same reasons christianists won't worship satan. And if the bible is to be trusted, the judeao-christian god is much worse than his adversary. And when I listened again to the question again, the word was submit rather than worship. Choosing my words carefully here - if someone had the means of removing my existence, I would be very much more inclined to "submit," That wouldn't in the least change my my opinion that the person was a vile waste of space.

[@bishopofeternity48]

Submission and worship are largely the same thing. Also, Satan is just Yhwh's fall guy. He can't wipe his own ass without Gods permission.

[@Rogstin]

_"If Hell were real, each occupant would be a shining reminder that God has failed."_