The Heartbreaking Tale of the 'Nemesis System'

[@georgeg8322]

They patent this system then did absolutely nothing with it. 7 years since it was last used is actually shocking

[@alexkohvaks4647]

@@iaqh The game thats not releasd yet? Yeah I dont think that counts.

[@georgeg8322]

@@iaqh yeah it’ll be cool to see it used again. But a 7 year gap is surprising given its success. People play Shadow of War a bunch still.

[@chrisj320ac3]

Executives are short sighted trash bags that investors dump their money into.

[@alexcomtois7932]

The Batman Beyond game was supposed to use it. Idk if Gotham Knights used it or some form of it but people were mixed about its usage in the game.

[@ulfrthewolf5065]

@@iaqhwhat u even gonna do in a ww game?

[@codyallen43]

The fact that companies can even patent game mechanics is a very dangerous precedent that has scary implications for the future of the game industry.

[@necromancer6405]

Someone needs to patent RPG mechanics in a VR game.

[@polandsilver3419]

and THEN is when cyberpunk really happens! Imagine living in future where you have best technology ever present, but only for use of monopolist corporations. It would be an era of underground indie games, made by anonymous creators (:

[@massgunner4152]

Namco did this shit with loading screen minigames, You don't see this happen more often because game companies aren't idiotic enough to be this canibalistic.

[@christianmcbrearty]

In America a company is legally considered an individual person. It's absolutely wild and dystopian. I don't know why that law was ever passed. But there's nothing we can do.

[@kamikami138]

how? it's their work

[@Rocky-el6lp]

A pirate game with the nemesis system would be revolutionary

[@sebastianbronowicki7073]

Honestly it would fit with just about any type of game. Car racing: ai drivers that you continue racing against that develop their own habits to counter your driving style Fighting games: rematches against rivals that adapt how they fight to beat you, forcing you to change up tactics Strategy: entire factions that have unique views and strategies, and react accordingly to how you act towards them I could go on further, as it's honestly harder to come up with games that WOULDN'T benefit from having this system thrown in somewhere.

[@TobeasJ]

You just made me sad because we will never get this.

[@spaceghost8886]

Bounty Hunter game in general would be sick and you could work it into a number of genres. Maybe a Pirate hunter game? Or an old West setting? Maybe an original superhero game where you create your own original character and build them up whilst defeating supervillains? Hell, imagine giving a competent studio this tech and licensing Star Wars to make a Boba Fett game where you hunt down bounties on criminals, fugitives or even other bounty hunters or something like that. The possibilities are really endless when you think about it

[@rrwholloway]

@@TobeasJ We will, in 13 years...

[@YellowLightNinja]

Ubisoft having the nemesis system and also Black Flag under their belt and STILLLLLL making a bad pirate game will always infuriate me

[@pmslevelboss]

Congrats to lawyer team who could manage to copyright an abstract concept.

[@kinggrimm2700]

Those guys could get you off for murder and then give you the creative rights to it

[@luissaumeth8000]

This whole ordeal just gives us 2 things. One corporate greed is never ending. Two, damn i want those lawyers, how did the ymanage to copyright something like this????

[@wirew]

Srry but this is basic stuff in copyright stuff

[@doltBmB]

@@wirew No it's not. Basically all patents granted these days directly oppose the spirit of the law. Patents are for specific implementations of ideas, ideas themselves are not supposed to be protected, but patents are granted for extremely broad and vague ideas all the time. Patents are evil and stifle innovation, it's been shown time and time again, it's time for patents to end.

[@What-ish]

​@wirew Wow you're so smart for pointing out that thing everyone already knows...

[@Noblesix84]

"Its MY IP to sit around and do nothing with."

[@stefanemanuel5606]

I mean .. kinda fair ? .. even thou i hate it 🧐

[@Mike_Dubayou]

@@stefanemanuel5606 Its not really though. Its the same as the very first fps ever, a game called 'Maze War', filing a patent for FPS games. Its dumb to grant patents for general ideas.

[@thegreat7878]

Well.... yeah. It's their idea and their work

[@thegreat7878]

​@Mike_Dubayou It's only general, because they didn't patent and everyone else copied them. It's the same for LOTR being the grand-dad of fantasy. Fantasy only exist because endless people literally copied another man

[@JackdotC]

​@thegreat7878 so you WANT there to not be any FPS games or fantasy as a setting? You understand that is what you are arguing in favor of right? Current Patent law is abused severely by corperations, the whole thing needs to be ripped apart and remade until it is fit for the original purpose, and not a tool for the 1% to keep hold of innovations

[@TheGuitarsquatch]

It's like a dog that found a bone and chewed on it for a few minutes before he realized he didn't want it. Then, when he sees another dog going near, he decides they can't have it.

[@SP-qi8ur]

Yeah, only they didn’t find it, they created it. Cry more

[@versionstar4352]

@@SP-qi8urhow’d that boot taste like?

[@aragornelesar3862]

The nemesis system is amazing. Shadow of Mordor/War are some of my favourite games because of the combat and crazy shenanigans that can happen because of the Nemesis system. It makes me so mad they put a patent on it and haven't used it in 7 years now. So many games would benefit amazingly from such a system.

[@EhurtAfy]

So good I haven't even uninstalled Shadow of War, almost nothing compares

[@5226-p1e]

To be honest with you guys I'm not exactly sure why that system is so amazing, I did play the game, and it was maybe a fresh way of playing the game, but it wasn't groundbreakingly amazing like everyone keeps saying it is.

[@reaven2535]

​@@5226-p1e tbh I'm not even sure how it's an idea that 'can' be patented. What does it do that's actually innovative? The only thing it does is makes some enemies flag something they did previously and talk about it later, then they just act like every other enemy's AI. How is this something that a company can even claim they invented? I guess in fairness, they've done literally nothing with the system since they patented it, so we haven't been able to see a company do something remotely interesting with it.

[@RDR911]

@@reaven2535I think the patent deals with dynamic villains? Idk I haven’t read it and honestly don’t care enough to. I’m sure you can find it if you do, though. Patents are public.

[@reaven2535]

@@RDR911 As if every RPG where you can make choices that change the story doesn't have dynamic villains lmao. Warner patented a series of if/then statements for randomized enemies and people act like they discovered God. If Warner actually patented something interesting, then the patent is a damn shame given they've basically abandoned the idea and no one else can use it to develop something meaningful.

[@ZakuInATopHat]

There should be a requirement for use with corporate patents. You HAVE to use the thing you patented in a certain time frame or you loose the patent, because your just sitting on it to stop other people from using it.

[@aroventalmav888]

We can't do that, just think of all the poor patent tr- holders that would lose their income.

[@ZakuInATopHat]

@@aroventalmav888 I would say giving someone else permission to use it would count as using it. Just as long as it is actually being used.

[@jackforbes1082]

Isn't there something like that in trademark law? If you don't use or protect your trademark, you lose it.

[@MediumDSpeaks]

You've just figured out how patent trolling works

[@oscaranderson5719]

also while we’re at it do that with land too. at the very least have some kind of fallow tax.

[@randomxgen6167]

Patents should expire 5-15 years after being filed, depending on the field. They should also only ever be owned by individuals, not abstract entities. The point is to give inventors a chance to monetize their innovation, not for garbage companies to sit on like a senile dragon riding a dildo.

[@Trademark-g1t]

They are, a patents can be up to 20 years

[@shippy1001]

It is a bad thing in this particular scenario, it`s a double edge sword. But I believe if they don`t do anything with the patent after a certain amount of time anyone can use it.

[@dn9156]

@@Trademark-g1t 20 years is much too long.

[@riverjoy5658]

Blame Disney. Unfortunately, they screwed up how the whole thing was supposed to work.

[@ZakuInATopHat]

@@riverjoy5658I think that was copyright & trademark. Patents are different.

[@MrImmortal709]

There is a mod that adds the Nemesis System into Skyrim, and it is awesome... died 4 times to the same Mudcrab, that thing got stronger and stronger... had to play for a few hours and level up to slay that legendary thing.

[@CommanderM117]

the mod Author i think even mention Don't spread or show of his mod as the Corperate aholes could take it out.

[@Andreas_42]

Ah, the legendary Muddy McMudcrab. Mothers in all of Skyrim tell their children it will come for them if they don't behave!

[@LordDawnWreaver]

Not to mention the debuff you get when defeated really makes you want to kill them as soon as possible. Because enough debuffs and a skeleton can kill you.

[@LordDawnWreaver]

​​@@CommanderM117he should be safe since he isn't selling it. Plus he isn't actually using the copyrighted system. He made it from scratch using the creation Kit script editor so technically it isn't the actual nemesis system.

[@JohnDee633]

@@LordDawnWreaverbut you can’t copy the system, that’s the whole reason they did the patent. It’s not about copying the script, it’s about copying the idea. Like the mod does

[@DishonoredSkull]

I'm actually in the middle of replaying the middle earth games, just started War and even after 4 playthroughs I'm still finding new unique orcs I never saw before. Its a revolutionary system, that can be expanded beyond mass yet is stuck in two games. Two really good games, but a system held shackles by greed and not even being used while in purgatory.

[@FadedBuddah]

How grindy is it to beat the game? I loved Mordor but not sure if I want to try War because of what I’ve heard

[@DishonoredSkull]

​@@FadedBuddah Beating it isn't a grind, at launch is was but it wasn't that bad, less of a grind and more repetitive than anything. You basically just do the same mission 5 times instead of the 20 at launch, if memory serves. Honestly play it, its gameplay is smooth, builds can be fun, the perk tree is great, the nemesis system is huge in its depth compared to mordor.

[@George-um2vc]

@@FadedBuddahmassive grind, game is designed around micro transactions and after they were removed they never rebalanced it, it’s SUPER bloated, the game completely disrespects your time as it’s relying on you to spend money to fast track progression, Luke just did a video on this I recommend checking it out, Shadow of Mordor is really the only game you need to play, which is super frustrating but it is what it is

[@Jay-lh7zx]

@@FadedBuddahthe last reply is a complete hater and please dont listen to him. The game is great and even the parts that used to be grindy were still fun back then and now its not even as grindy as when it released. Its very fun and the nemesis system is literally at its best in this game (until we hopefully get a newer one🤞🏽)

[@FadedBuddah]

@@DishonoredSkull Ok thanks! Well I think I’ll definitely give it try at some point then! If the example of it going from 20 times to 5 times is somewhat accurate then that’s a grind I can get past

[@ChristopherCricketWallace]

They should not have been able to PATENT this at all. Characters with a memory (persistent game state) and that effect their behavior is NOT a new idea and should not have been granted a patent. Do they want to patent game saves now, too? Patent damaging a boss and saving that you damaged them? WTF?!?!

[@TyLovePie]

This 💯 it is mind numbing how stupid this patent is

[@somedudewatchintv5297]

They would absolutely patent those if they could get away with it. I wonder if someone can sue to get it dissolved.

[@doltBmB]

Tons of patents that are technically illegal are granted and protected and upheld every day, the system is broken and corrupt.

[@TyLovePie]

@doltBmB When you have Warner Bros as your producer....

[@jasonbarkey6352]

Exactly! I was able to find 2 games predating SoM that had basically a Nemesis system - Dwarf Fortress (which made EVERYTHING PROCEDURAL and have an impact, and Valley of the Dragon Clan, which always started with a set system, but which diverged in reaction to player choices... (Not 100% on that second one's title, but it was something about a valley and a dragon clan)

[@vikirocks7648]

mad max with nemesis system can work.

[@MrREAPERsz]

I would've liked it in Hogwarts legacy. I probably would've finished it.

[@chriswihulu]

Welp, never getting this idea out of my head ever again, cause fuck is that awesome!!!

[@StillLateToTheParty]

That would be great!

[@TARMHeLL]

no GTA, imagine cops and gangsters getting stronger when they kill you

[@Gus1776]

Mad Max was so awesome. They could do so many amazing things with their IPs but no they’re puking out rotting garbage like SquiziteSkwadd

[@greenhowie]

This is how business works now. If you have something unique that can be patented, you NEVER license it out - you sit on that gold and use it in one (1) project, then wait for someone to infringe on your copyright. Then you call the lawyer squad. Profit.

[@Twocell4u]

Government patents tons of beneficial things society could use, only to keep it out of the hands that would benefit from it.

[@HotlineMiami50Blessings]

Honestly with how the Simpsons road rage lawsuit went it may be worth it to just make a wicked game with this system and take the lawsuit on the chin

[@holyghost8467]

​@@HotlineMiami50Blessingsthose gaming companies that would be broke and sued for everything they have

[@HotlineMiami50Blessings]

@@holyghost8467 You just lack conviction

[@LeLastMelon]

I think the concept makes more sense with Talion who’s part wraith. With Batman if he loses to a criminal wouldn’t he just die?

[@thedemonking2196]

He's gotten beaten up many times without being killed or escaping before they can try, so it could definitely work.

[@harmansingh95100]

​@ConnorLonergan then how would the thug be promoted or get stronger if batman just escapes ?

[@smartalec2001]

@@harmansingh95100 "Wow! You beat da Bat! You made da Bat run away! We're stickin' with you, Eyes." "Hmm, yes, excellent job, Eyes! You are my new chief henchman."

[@ChaseSchleich]

Batman has lost plenty of times. He's famous for losing and then coming back stronger, armed with more knowledge of his opponent, leading him to victory. So really, the Nemesis system works perfectly for Batman, especially if you learn the weaknesses of the opponents who beat you.

[@harmansingh95100]

I personally don't think it would work but it would be a cool idea nonetheless

[@drkickyoface]

Flak the Wicked, that bastard was the bane of my existence. Encountered him close to the start of the game and by the time I was just about to finish it we had fought so many times that he was horribly scared and was resistant to literally almost everything. Dude was a nearly invincible fortress even though he was actually one of the smaller slimmer type orcs. The ONLY way to bring him down was using his fear of wargs against him but of course a lot of the times I encountered him there were non nearby so it was either die or run and fight another day. The amount of dopamine I got from finally killing him was unlike anything else I've ever experienced in a video game before. god those games were so good

[@AbsolutelyJason]

Nice!!!!

[@abhijeetpoudel5919]

Patents to game mechanics could KILL THE INDUSTRY. Imagine if Bethesda patented side quests or if Activision patented First Person Perspective.

[@SWOTHDRA]

Activison wasnt the first with an fps tho 😂

[@wolfyderoguy6621]

@@SWOTHDRA That isn't the point. Neither did Bethesda create side quests, aside from what you think /s. The point is that patenting mechanics, whether you create them or not, is harmful to everyone else since no one else can use them. If no one could use a First Person Perspective other than Activision, what about everyone else? Those Battlebits, the Lethal Companies, and especially games like R6S and Valorant? It brings a bad precedence to the future of gaming if you can just patent whatever you want.

[@alexanderchristopher6237]

@@wolfyderoguy6621 If you want actual example, BioWare patented the dialogue wheel.

[@BigBird629]

the gaming industry is bigger than movies… no single mechanic is holding the entire industry together

[@wolfyderoguy6621]

@@alexanderchristopher6237 I actually never heard about that, but it makes a lot more sense why I haven't seen it since.

[@justingabriel1765]

Imagine a Pirate game with the Nemesis system, where you could build your legacy and have countless other pirates that rise to be deadly sea demons along side you, that would have been super cool

[@costanzafaust]

Would have been great in a Watch_Dogs espionage type game with grudge hackers and double agents, a Wild West Outlaw and Bounty Hunter game, A Sci-Fi version like a Star Wars Bounty Guild vs. Syndicates, and Angels vs. Demons apocalyptic warfare game... the closest thing I recall was Warframe putting grudge enemies you could eventually kill for a weapon or recruit as a summon.

[@slenderminion2229]

Warframe did try to use a system like this a few years back. It introduced special enemy types called the "Kuva Liches" and "Sisters of Parvos", for two of the main enemy factions respectively, who have differing abilities and special upgraded weapons with elemental properties depending on what Warframe you used to kill them with. They get stronger as you try and fail to defeat them and, when you do finally manage to take them down for good, give you the option of killing them off to take their weapon for yourself or sparing them to turn them into an ally that can randomly show up to help you in missions. It's not perfect or all that deep from an emergent storytelling perspective, but it's the closest thing I have seen anyone get to replicating the Nemesis System without Warner Brothers saying anything about it.

[@Whitepulse43]

I get the feeling that reason why they haven't worked more on Kuva Lich System is because of this stupid patent bullshit, some of the features that were planned scrapped. if they would refine it more i think WB would come knocking at that point.

[@RedShadowOfSaturn]

Just saw this video today and was going to post this exact thing. 👍 It's kinda frustrating hearing so many people say "no one else has tried this" when...no, yeah, at least one other has, yes. 🤭

[@izawa9211]

Id argue its a diffrent thing You have to go out of your way to find a canditate, then you have to kill that candidate and hold a button for them to beacome a rival After they beacomes a lich, they stay in one planet, you hit them with a combination of puzzle pieces - They match/you can go kill the Boss They dont - You gotta try again The boss only gets stronger in hp and damage. A random enemy cant beacome a lich but only one single enemy that might appear in a mission, they dont climb some sort of chain of commad ladder and kill other rivals or betray you Its nothing alike the shadow of war system except the concept of having a nemesis but if that's the case, pokemon rivals would also be part of the nemesis system beacuse they are a rival and they get stronger, as much as I enjoy warframe, people try to give it way too much credit for one of the worst, least enjoyed features in the game by the community after railjack They didnt try to replicate some nemesissystem, they did a random generated boss fight

[@slenderminion2229]

@@izawa9211 It is very different in execution, yes, but the developers themselves have stated that the Adversary system is directly inspired by Middle-Earth's Nemesis system. That the Adversaries function so differently might be the main reason why DE was able to implement it in the first place.

[@Brekner]

Man, the Nemesis system is such a genius design, especially when combined with something like Assassin's Creed Odyssey mercenary system...imagine Dragon's Dogma 2, you go around the world, killing those other groups of 4 adventurers that you see on the road, and one of them shoots a flare and BAM now you're wanted by every other group, who is now on their way to you...and even if you kill them all, 2 hours later, while you're miles away, killing goblins, you get ambushed by a raid group of adventurers lead by an elite one who demands justice for his sister's murder or something... Edit: lol, I forgot to add that they get stronger by capturing/killing your pawns.

[@SuperXDARKSTAR]

Literally gold we will never glean 😢

[@A1stardan]

Ac odyssey Ripoff was garbage

[@foolydude4305]

God, imagine a Fallout game with the Nemesis System! Uniquely named raiders that can grow in power as they defeat the infamous/famous Vault Dweller of the game and go on to become great Raider Chief or War Lord. It'd give a Fallout game something more than just do side quest, get stronger, do main mission, get stronger- AND it'd add so much more potential for roleplaying dynamics!

[@Miaholmes4952]

Unbelievable timing, just finished your Shadow of War video from last year cause I was pondering if I should give it another try. And you drop this exactly while I am sitting here and reminiscing about the nemesis system. How much I loved it in Shadow of Mordor. How impactful it was and how to this day I remember this a-hole orc Grisha who kept coming back and driving me crazy! Curse him and WB for keeping this locked away from us. This can make such an amazing gaming experience

[@fallbranch]

The problem with the nemesis system is that the better you are at games: The less you end up interacting with it. I never got a nemesis, because I consistently killed everyone. A couple of them would come back to life to take revenge, but I'd always just kill em on the first try... I don't know if they made it adapt to that in the sequel, since I never played it, but it's one of the reasons I don't really remember this game as much as a lot of people seem to.

[@TheMasterMind144]

They did add a mechanic where orcs adapt to what you do in the sequel, but most importantly they added difficulty settings which fixed Mordor's balancing issues.

[@GoldRider4265]

It did not change in the sequel. The system only cares if you fail, with the occasional failsafe for when you succeed via unique cheated death orcs like The Machine when an orc cheats death form a cleave. That said, there is a lot more that can happen independent of your performance like the various ambush types, but if you are just good at the game and also don't intentionally engage with the system by dying then you get a very neutered serving of the intended experience.

[@cmike123]

If you were really, really good at the game you would die intentionally to experience the fun. But I find it hard to believe you never got sniped by an orc with a 1 shot cross-bow attack and the No Chance perk...

[@GoldRider4265]

@@cmike123 Second part first, that's actually correct. Not only have I not died to a sniper shot (rather, i've never been confirmed after being downed since they were too far to trigger last chance), I've not died to marksmen period. My bane are poisonous assassin hunters. Way too many times has a spear come out of nowhere and nuked 85% of my hp, but thankfully poison either can't kill you, or there's some sort of condition it needs to fulfill as too many times to count I live on the magic pixel after poison and doom ticks away the last 15%. But you care about the substance and responding to that, yes I have died. I am nowhere near good enough to do a deathless run. That being said, it wasn't a whole lot. Only one orc comes to mind as an actual nemesis, a marauder savage assassin who killed me 3 times cause his boys made fighting him borderline impossible back when I was still learning the ropes (lvl 15-20). That's it. Any other orc died on the first revenge and no other nemesis were formed. I didn't get my first sword break until 75 when my computer chugged in the middle of a fight and the singular olog with no chance I've ever seen got the last hit when I was physically incapable of playing. Killed him on first revenge and got the sword back. There should be more ways to interact with the nemesis system besides death, as death is still a fail state.

[@cmike123]

@@GoldRider4265 I was talking to the OP, but I'm glad you responded. I can't help you if your gamers'' pride won't let you die to an NPC. I would also be in awe of you for being able to masterfully kill every orc that was basically resistant to all damage, enraged by everything, and adaptive. Those mothertruckers were always a massive challenge as you may not always have something they were weak to on hand. Or worse, they only had something like fear of pinning, but no fatal weakness. Once you shot the leg like 3 times, they would adapt if they werent dead. Usually, the only way to kill those orcs is to get saved by a Follower, a human, or Forthog.

[@DillPickl3_]

Kinda wish loot boxes were patented

[@SWOTHDRA]

Right????

[@Random_dud31]

If that happened, that would fit the description for Necessary Evil

[@riotman3579]

You know every companies in Asia will dish out hundreds of lawsuits

[@TheGuitarsquatch]

As a loot goblin, no

[@Shedovv]

@@TheGuitarsquatch I dont see how you being a loot goblin in a game has anything to do with lootboxes that companies sell, but vehemently claim isnt gambling.

[@schwakyl000]

When Volvo designed the car seatbelt, they decided *not* to patent it because they saw the overall value it held to society not to keep something so groundbreaking and innovative to themselves... a refreshing idea.

[@BennyLlama]

Star Wars would be perfect for a Nemesis system. So many times Jedi and Sith fight without actually killing each other. Imagine a game where you start at a Jedi padawan or Sith apprentice and by the end of the game the, some of Sith lords you're fighting are the guys you've been fighting throughout the story.

[@scribblerstudios9895]

And perhaps even having as tenuous allies or perhaps somehow recruiting them? That sounds amazing

[@loganswalk8621]

That’s actually a great idea you can recruit fellow Jedi or other individuals as allies but there’s a chance they could fall to the dark side and join the Sith but you could offer redemption to the Sith and their followers they could join you. Of course the reverse could work building your own Sith Empire corrupting Jedi to join you and the potential your Sith followers betray you and try to usurp you.

[@Healthy_Toki]

Shadows of Mordor, Shadow of War, Star Wars: Shadows of the Empire

[@Zinkolo]

This is why I hate patents because they literally serve nothing but so withhold innovation for extremely short term profits

[@FireBurner101]

Not really. Patents are generally good cause it protects innovation from being copied while it gets developed

[@thechugg4372]

This sadly hasn't been a use case for a few decades now.

[@627native]

​@@FireBurner101 And how many cases Has it been used that way.

[@krylotik]

​@@627nativepretty much every new CPU and GPU

[@osbourn5772]

@@FireBurner101 This is very industry dependent. The software industry is not like other industries in that software projects use many more components. A construction project with tens of thousands of components is a megaproject. A software project with tens of thousands of components is just another app. So one patent is tremendously more restrictive in software, when there are so many components that could be targets of patents.

[@davidmount2483]

This would have been an awesome Batman game

[@fl4shblade]

I completely disagree, Batman is about his rogues gallery. He is not going to get defeated and building a rivalry with some random street punk.

[@starcultiniser]

@@fl4shblade ay, every nemesis needs to start from somewhere, and I think it would be cool if that's incorporated into the gameplay and your actions and develops from it.

[@AnalogueDDR5]

Not the Nolan tie in hel naww, but bad games can have good qualities it would've been cool to see

[@darklord9581]

And Spider-Man too, I also think assassins creed would benefit heavy from this with the assassin and Templar war.

[@devinwatkins8953]

?? Uhh isn't that kind of how you build a rouges gallery lol 😂 broski taking major batman juice down his throat. Anywho a nemesis system in a arkham game would be top notch. Everyone gets a memorable arch enemy ​@fl4shblade

[@TageChe98]

I played the hell out of shadow of war. Such an underrated gem

[@stunitech]

The Nemesis system, especially in SoW is awesome. I still regularly go back and play it ans every time some interaction or orc will surprise me. A particular highlight being a long time back I super shamed a high level Olog and it demented him and lead to him only being able to make this hilarious "YEEEE-YEE--YEEEE" noise rather than be able to speak. Still kills me when I remember it. Awesome system

[@tombatchelor6849]

I still want a warhammer 40k where you start as an ork boy fresh out of the ground and you work your way up to war boss to lead a waagh against the imperium. You could have other orks, humans, nids, etc as enemies that come back on different planets using the nemesis system until you eventually have your Crew assembled to attack terra.

[@QWONIE]

To add I think being gorka or morka would also help with balancing lore aswell considering they was the only real ork threats to the imperial forces

[@ericsaari2901]

The real tragedy is WB. I would love a great Wonder Woman game, but I have no faith in it.

[@draw2death421]

Probably will be full of Politics aswell like random pride flags.

[@unlimited971]

Wb is good example of greed arrogance and corporate incompetence

[@Noirthodox]

Believe it (gal gadot wonder woman’s voice)

[@dcmbassi]

Imagine if a movie studio had patented the The Cavalry Arrives trope, thus preventing things like the ride of the Rohirrim or the portal scene from Endgame.

[@alksandra]

Unbelievable timing, just finished your Shadow of War video from last year cause I was pondering if I should give it another try. And you drop this exactly while I am sitting here and reminiscing about the nemesis system. How much I loved it in Shadow of Mordor. How impactful it was and how to this day I remember this a-hole orc Grisha who kept coming back and driving me crazy! Curse him and WB for keeping this locked away from us. This can make such an amazing gaming experience.

[@kirakoraawesome]

The sims 4 CAS system is like this too. They revolutionized character creation, instead of using sliders or presets you can actually drag and manipulate the face itself. But now no one else can use this lol.

[@feebleking21]

Patenting game mechanics is blatantly corrupt. I have no idea how this could have been approved.

[@QfngB]

What’s your problem ?? Tell devs to come up with new ideas ??

[@magniwalterbutnotwaltermag1479]

Nobody can come up with new ideas if anything close to something copyrighted is made. Have you ever wondered why there aren't anymore black and white Mouse mascots these days? ​@@QfngB

[@firstlast6226]

​@@QfngBhow would they be able to innovate on the system if the foundation is patented

[@TyLovePie]

​@QfngB Your reply is dumb. Imagine having shooter games patented so only one studio could make them. Competition breeds innovation. When you have multiple companies trying to improve something gamers get better content and it pushes developers to improve.

[@TheCallOfTheValkyrie]

@@QfngB Your favorite video game took ideas from a game that came before it and defined its existence via creating that idea first

[@OfficialYondoth]

If a patent application if rejected MULTIPLE times. You should not be able to apply for a patent on the subject again. Period.

[@SleekHeroo]

This.

[@PeanutHazlewood]

you can change it slightly

[@GruntoSkunko]

Patents should be illegal. There should be no copyright whatsoever.

[@OfficialYondoth]

@@GruntoSkunko in a perfect world.

[@PeanutHazlewood]

@@GruntoSkunko well what if someone blatantly copies all of my work

[@ankuriboh]

Great timing on this video. I finally finished Shadow of Mordor yesterday. I tried and failed to play it years ago and never got far. I don't know why I suddenly found it much easier this time. I finished it in about a week. The nemesis system originally bothered me a lot, but I think I had bad RNG and suddenly had a lot of beefy enemies I couldn't defeat. This time I had a lot of fun, especially when I got the power to brand orcs and use the system to my advantage. There was only one orc who killed me throughout the game and I can't remember his name, something Marauder. He was immune to range damage, a combat master, he had a hatred of fire so setting him on fire only made him madder, and his only vulnerability was to stealth attacks which I couldn't easily do since he was always in a group. But once I had the power to brand and command orcs I thought I'd try again. I was losing until I started mind controlling other orcs around him and eventually I had enough of an army on my side that he was killed when I wasn't looking. Not really related to the nemesis system, but in the beast hunter DLC I was losing to the final warchief but suddenly a wretched graug happened upon the fight and took care of him for me. That was hilarious.

[@smyron79]

Now imagine a game that uses the Nemesis System along with the budding AI story telling machine they are making....

[@jordick8427]

As a big Tolkien fan I'm more glad we got Shadow of Mordor over Batman game. As for the Nemesis system, I can only imagine what kind of games some passionate studios would have made, if WB wasn't such an dipshit and patented this game mechanic.

[@jpstence]

Honestly that whole nemesis system pitch sounds like it would've worked well for a way better version of Gotham knights

[@XGODSB47STUTTER]

A batman game with the nemisis system would of been dope. WARNER BROTHERS ARE HOLDING THEIR SELF BACK TRYNNA CHASE TRAINS THAT LEFT A LONG AHH TIME AGO

[@eeveegee666]

1:30 into this video with only a little context on the nemesis system- and I’m livid, heartbroken, and need to know more. Well done sir.

[@ZackThoreson]

Assassins creed as nipped at the edge of the system, and it would be great if they could just do it fully.

[@firmak2]

They could have, they had years after "Shadow of Mordor" to do it

[@darthshard8967]

@@firmak2 shame they never did, cause shadow of mordor is more assassin like than then the last few ac games combined

[@StillLateToTheParty]

It could be great in an AC game! Would be such a fun twist to have some low level soldier keep showing up throughout the game powered up and out for revenge! “I’ve tracked you down again, Eivor! You burned down my village, and now you will pay!”

[@msm3150]

They pretty much did it with the Mercenary system in Odyssey

[@darthshard8967]

@@msm3150 just cause its endless doesnt make it the same as the shadow series

[@WDSimp]

I looked at the Nemesis System patent and it is fairly specific, so implementing that exact thing into a game is asking for trouble. However, there have been several games that use proceedural generation and developing social links and rivalries between players and NPCs in alternative ways. Ubisoft's done it at least twice, including in your recruiting apparatus in Watch Dogs Legion.

[@GamingWithKilo93]

Assassins Creed also

[@cdubsb3831]

Ah, the sad thing with Ubisoft is theyll contantly introduce all these cool systems and never put the effort to actually see its potential through. Fitting, the name Legion with how evry NPC you interact with defaults to the same character personality.

[@Mikechain97]

The Shadow games got to be the biggest and funniest case of irony in the gaming industry. There’s not a single original bone in these games and yet the one thing that was different they patented. Fucking hilarious.

[@slumped_shady]

I remember GRINDING by leveling up my orcs to get through those 10 phases of tower defense and retakes to get the final ending. Losing orcs in the process to RNG. It was miserable. But I can honestly say that in 2017, I was among less than a percentage of players who seen the real ending without spending a dime. I believe at the time only like .7 or .8 percent of players even got the real ending.

[@TheMasterMind144]

Unless you really cared about your captains, there was no reason to level them up for the Shadow Wars, you just dominated the attacking captains and breezed through the stages. My favorite trick was to stay in the fort towers and use Shadow Strike Pull on the attacking captains and get them up there since they couldn't escape and couldn't take the points, and I'd be free to deal with everything else. This tricks still works in the latest version as well.

[@kloakovalimonada]

The entire game is a massive grind fest. Nice gameplay loops and the Nemesis system adds a lot but the game's a chore.

[@TheMasterMind144]

@@kloakovalimonada It really is, but it's grindy by design not due to lootboxes. Heck you could tell Monolith wanted the game to be grindy when they increased Talion's max level by 20 AFTER they removed the loot boxes. If you enjoy messing around with orcs in a procedural story system, then you won't be bothered by it, if you don't like the gameplay then SoW isn't for you.

[@Buzz5462]

​@@TheMasterMind144Exactly! I remember when those 70 -150 hour playtimes were coming out and being dumbfounded about how it could take so long. Now it makes sense if people were really leveling up their orcs like this instead of just dominating the attacking ones. Seems like a pretty obvious blunder in strategy by the players which the game unfortunately got attacked for..

[@TheMasterMind144]

@@Buzz5462 That, or they were really bad the game and failed the missions over and over, and didn't know about the difficulty settings. Unlikely though. If I remember correctly it was Kotaku who said that it "might" take someone that long to beat the endgame, but I don't think anyone in the history of this game ever took that long. But that one uninformed statement from Kotaku was repeated over and over again until it became the "truth", and it unfortunately persists to this day and is hard to refute because that version of the game is gone.

[@pgh3316]

Warner Bros patent on the system lasts til 2035 and they ain't doin shit with it. I bet they don't even remember they have it. I imagine someone could ask permission to use it, but WB would make the license to have it be incredibly expensive

[@Techigai]

I feel like the idea behind Warframe's Kuva Liches was similar to the Nemesis system but definitely not as wide reaching.

[@chriscrane1482]

I entirely forgot there had been loot boxes. I think other than the ones occasionally earned for free my brothers and I typically just went to the gladiator pit and ran it until someone hit max level. It often ended up with some good entertainment AND some pretty sweet champions. Hell I lost a lot of legendaries to that pit.

[@notiowegian]

The reason it worked though in SOM was because your character was undead and you didn't need to save scum. A game with a mortal character isn't going to work as well as there needs to be a realistic death mechanic. I imagine this is the reason the system isn't used. People do not want to be defeated and having defeat as a core gameplay loop isn't going to work in most situations. It would work in MMOS though where there are unimmersive death systems always present

[@davidbeer5015]

Theoretically, one could design the game so that when you run out of “health” something other than death happens. Ex: Assassin’s Creed was more a “desynchronization” state than straight death, and the.. was it Superman Returns? It didn’t give Superman himself health, but the meter was about City destruction. Death is an easy one though, especially if there aren’t a lot of extra movements to program and animate. With heroes, for an example, it could be just designing the fail state to trigger the hero doing something to escape and recover, buying time for the criminals to be all about the guy that just beat the hero back and how that leads to them being promoted within a crime group.

[@costanzafaust]

I wanted something like this for Watch Dogs Legion where your agent could get hospitalized or die and you just switch to another one. If they had grudge hackers and betrayal added to the impressive recruitment and NPC scheduling stuff, it would have really improved the blandness of the random characters.

[@caliburn1123]

Batman has escaped near death scenarios multiple times. Even in the Arkham series he gets taken down multiple times

[@byross14]

imagine a serious deadpool game

[@notiowegian]

@@caliburn1123 Yeah but this would have to be a gameplay loop otherwise it would be a wasted system. SOM you might die dozens or hundreds of times depending on skill and difficulty. It is the core feature of the game and it works because you are already dead. It is an immersion feature, it makes logical sense so you can't really put it in a game that doesn't have immersive logical systems. Batman dying over and over might make gameplay better but it breaks the immersion of the story.

[@LurkinHandworker]

I think the Nemesis system makes a lot of sense for any superhero game. Reminds me of Project Awakened by Phosphor.

[@Deriv44]

Nemesis systems had so much potential could you imagine it used in GTA game or other open world game

[@muhammadharoon-xn1ri]

witcher series

[@BlakeLuke-x5d]

imagine the nemesis system in a game where you can create your own character and build like an mmo. I think that would be so unique

[@Arcibalg]

I've been observing the discussion around ''what did we miss with this game?'' and i'm quite sure the if the game had been published, we would now be discussing ''What do we do with 2 different batman franchises, this is just a mediocre clone from Arkham series. They actually had plans to do LOTR-game with these kinda game mechanics! I'd give me soul to see that!''. And I'd be posting this same message reversed.

[@Dlnqntt]

Shadow of War is such a good game that WB tried so hard to kill with those microtranscations. I have actually tried to slip the nemesis system into my own Pathfinder 2e campaigns at home, though. Its tough since the actual system is based on the players death, but it has such potential that I need to figure out a way to make it work.

[@ItsAme7143]

The micro transactions are completely unnecessary and you don't need them to beat or have fun with the game, you can also attack other people's fortresses to get points to buy the chests so you literally don't have to spend a single extra dollar on the game, I'm tired of people bitching about the micro transactions bc it's literally just something extra that you can ignore if you want to

[@Dlnqntt]

@@ItsAme7143 They are no longer even in the game these days, and they reduced the grind to get the true ending. I play through the Mordor games once a year because they are just that good.

[@ItsAme7143]

@@Dlnqntt oh I know they're no longer in the game but I'm js they were never necessary, I'll be honest tho the game never felt like a grind to me bc I loved seeing all the different kind of orcs and ologs, I spent idk how many hours in the fighting pits alone so I'm probably a little biased on how grindy the game was🤣👌

[@Dlnqntt]

@@ItsAme7143 I never got that true ending the very first time I played, but I stopped playing at the "false ending" because I was annoyed at that point with the transactions.

[@ItsAme7143]

@@Dlnqntt why be annoyed at transactions you don't even need to do?🤣 Even if you felt the need to do them (which you shouldn't have bc they are unnecessary) you could conquer other people's fortresses to get the points for the chests

[@Kevlar49]

They don’t like it cuz it’s harder to monetize then live service😂

[@cmike123]

Shadow of War was live service for a long time.

[@Foogi9000]

​@@cmike123Didn't it get bonbed on for that exact reason though?

[@cmike123]

@@Foogi9000 We grumbled about live service, but the real hot debate at the time was about the hole they tried to fill in Tolkein lore. I tried to point out to many haters that the 9 Nazgul had to be human leaders, but they did not have to all be created at the same time. Then I had to point out that the Witch-King of Angmar was the only name that we knew, so it was entirely possible that Isildur could have become a Nazgul. That was where the negativity came. They made Isildur a Nazgul.

[@parkouremaster]

Imagine a nemesis system working alongside with actual IA's, like they develop personality in real time, just depending on the situations and memories

[@pandemix69]

Imagine a Harry Potter game where your classmates use the nemesis system. Think Harry Potter, Bully, and the nemesis system all mixed together.

[@hoid9407]

Thank you! He missed the low hanging fruit here. How many students go to Hogwarts? How many dark wizards did we fight? So many great places to implement house rivalries or straight up dark nemeses

[@umphreak9999]

Would certainly be nice for rp's sake if there were any sort of consequences for being good/evil.

[@JackdotC]

That was supposed to be in the recent HP game actually

[@Fire_Bear42]

That would be a dream😭

[@XLbuffLive]

Nemesis is one of my favorite game systems and it sucks how WB gatekeep it. Even under WB it has a lot of potential for great games. Like Mad Max with Nemesis system would be so freking cool.

[@SILVER_JP]

That Shadow Of War music in the background 😢 Making me a little nostalgic

[@vasiliskoutsokostas]

I started my first walkthrough in SoW at Brutal difficulty, never used loot boxes and let me tell you, I had a blast!!

[@Mougerman]

Imagine if the nemesis system was in Elden Ring. Absolutely Phenomenal!

[@SWOTHDRA]

Yes!!! Or in sekiro or wukong

[@legacy7900]

I would LOVE a souls game with the Nemesis System

[@pocket6638]

2036-08-11 is when the patent expires btw

[@SigtryggrWithWhiskers]

Imagine if the nemesis system was arkham knight's big step forward in the formula instead of the batmobile

[@truth2527]

As someone who played the hell out of this game on release I can tell you first hand the the microtransactions weren't as intense as he makes it seem during the video if you played for the passion of this type of game it was so much fun to encounter new orcs and add them to your army conventionally. Never felt like I was at a disadvantage if I didn't have stronger orcs with me since at the end of the day it was a fighting action game encounters in the game at the end of the day depended on how well you yourself could fend for yourself

[@Calebasso]

*Best system I've ever encountered on a game, hands down.* Because of it, Shadow of Mordor/War were two of the best games I've ever played in my entire life.

[@karanloka4235]

Bro, my enemy in this game was what I can describe as an 'actual nemesis'. He had description in only in strength and rage, he had nothing in weakness and fear.

[@ZGamingGuy]

I think AI being introduced into NPCs is going to achieve something similar. Yeah they won't be ranking up and stuff, but diverse personalities and remember previous encounters is definitely within possibility. And that is the core of what made it interesting imo

[@SWOTHDRA]

Yup, more relevant dialog , NPC's really living their lives.....hopefully GTA6 will habe something like this

[@lucasbrautigam6781]

This system combined with ai or done through ai could be amazing.

[@1738-l1j]

@@SWOTHDRA nah prolly in gta 7

[@Commodore22345]

Nah, AI is a meme. The funny thing about it, is that it seems to actually be getting worse over time. I remember having some truly amazing almost human-like conversations with early chatbots from just a few years ago. Now, those same "updated and improved" chatbots can't seem to remember what I said to them just five minutes ago and constantly get stuck in response loops where they say the same nonsensical responses over and over that have nothing to do with what I'm saying to them.

[@ziodyne7774]

No, thank you

[@tikiman52]

There's a mod for skyrim that does a really good job at this system. I guess we'll just have to rely on mods for the time being

[@NPOCrushader]

I love Shadow of War with all my heart! Dropped around 150 hours at launch in the span of a couple of months and have been back plenty of times as well. The day the patent dropped my heart shattered. The nemesis system is such a cool concept

[@vinnietorres1145]

Honestly I'm kinda glad the nemesis system has been used sparsely, and patented for now. TOO many companies come out with this new "revolutionary" idea that all of a sudden is copied and bastardized by every Tom, Dick and Harry, meanwhile gamers constantly cry and complain that that new games are just copy and paste of an older one and beg for them to change, all the while the game devs (the good ones who actually want to try) might be receiving the feedback and getting confused because you say you want something new, but you don't play that something new, hate that something new, but yet constantly play and herald that old thing that you say you getting tired of what the fuck do you want? With as it is now we can appreciate the nemesis system as it is and not as it were because its been implemented into 30 different fucking games all of varying lower or same quality.

[@royjones0824]

The nemesis fits in a ton of games idk why it’s not used more

[@JacoBee93]

Because they can't. They patent it

[@PLBiohazard]

Because Warner Bros patented this system. Did you not watch the video? EDIT: here, 14:30. Timestamp.

[@royjones0824]

@@JacoBee93 i know that part I mean within the company

[@PearlBladeBeats]

​@@royjones0824 Because AAA companies are so stupid it's hilarious

[@royjones0824]

@@PearlBladeBeats the answer that I kind of thought about lol

[@dhanukashalitha5394]

Apart from the nemesis system, the game is pretty solid, and the gameplay feels amazing, not to mention the storyline is also good, especially for someone who geeks out about the lord of the rings franchise.

[@Zora_Fox]

You are here because you heard that Palworld got sued by Nintendo, because of gameplay system patents.

[@toasty_mike_games]

Really good video Luke! Love your content.

[@CalDale-i6z]

I'm more shocked that a company can "patent" this concept in the first place. So they now "own" the idea of having enemies join you or switch sides, hold grudges and act on their own, that's what I would have thought would become a basic evolution of enemy ai in ALL games in general, weird.

[@kidanarchy2105]

About the Nolanverse game, Ultimately I do think cancelling it was the right call. As cool as it looks, we had Arkham City releasing in 2011, and Arkham Origins in 2013. Assuming this came out in 2012 that might've oversaturated things a bit. Pivoting to LOTR meant that we got cool games for other IPs. I doubt we would've gotten a game set in Middle Earth that was anywhere near this cool if the Nolan game was released.

[@liamdean3478]

It would be so cool if this system were used to develop an open-world Batman game based on the Snyderverse.

[@deepseastonecore3017]

Ask some, "If old tea is used tea, what is old ink?" When they say " used ink," it sounds like "You stink." You got yourself!

[@jasperverbrugghe3933]

i always hoped that they would give shadow of war a fps update on ps5, also for the last badman game.

[@300-f1p]

To be honest, Batman with a nemesis system doesn't really suit each other when considering he's well-known image. The Nolan version, sure he's not as op as the Arkham version but he's in no way a push over. At the same time how would batman's defeat work out? Can't exactly come back from the dead like LOTR, and how would you expect Gotham thugs to be as colorful as the orcs?

[@ValiantInstance]

Lord of the Rings is such a painfully underused IP. I really hope the success of Hogwarts Legacy has convinced WB to make a Middle Earth game.

[@Ataniphor]

As it should be tho. I don't trust any of these triple aaa modern studios or Hollywood to give Tolkiens work the respect it deserves .

[@bobthejedi]

Imagine how many settings the nemesis system could be used for, Gangster, pirates, superhero. what a waste of such a great concept.

[@Flamewind11]

I think I read recently that WB sold their LotR license to Embracer, so we will never see a third Middle Earth game. Hopefully Wonder Woman will be as good if not better than Shadow of War, the Nemesis System while amazing can also be easy to mess up. I've played the game 3 times now with minimal bugs thankfully but watch someone like Tears of Grace (/Disgrace Livestreams) and boy does that man see the game in it's most broken state.

[@PXAbstraction]

Warner Bros. doesn't own LotR, they had a license to make movies and some games based on it. What Embracer bought was the actual IP rights from the Tolkien estate. It doesn't change any contracts that were already in place. They could choose to not renew those contracts later though.

[@gavinder14]

I feel like it doesn’t really make sense for a Batman game. Because if someone kills batman, that’s it he’s dead. So it doesn’t really work. It works well in shadow of Mordor because of the immortal nature of talion and celebrimbor

[@dillonbernard6814]

Favorite gaming KZbinr!!!

[@epickrimson72]

Patenting anything related to video games is so messed up. Making games is an art form. Should Vincent van Gogh have patented his brush strokes?

[@TEFFTPATTERN]

Patents for video game mechanics should not be legal. We start allowing that now after decades of innovation and investment went into building everything that provided a foundation for the Nemesis system to even work. I’m talking about the very basics, 3D modeling and physics, combat, a “hit box” itself, these were all originally invented by someone but we didn’t patent them. It’s too late to allow patents for obscure mechanics in video games when there is very little originality to any of them by necessity. The patent process also doesn’t allow competitors to challenge the patent. It relies on the ignorance of a legal process that wasn’t built for software, it was created for real tangible items and mechanical processes.

[@Ixarus6713]

I think patents like this should have a non-use clause. I.e: Take the average time required to develop that type of game. E.g: 5-6 years ish. (I don't know how long it took to develop but that's the average.) The company can pay more than they currently do to patent the system. (I'd say 1.5x more to encourage cooperation) and therefore gain exclusive use of this system for the patent's duration. UNLESS: They do not publish a game using described system within a 5 years timespan (time taken for development), in which case the patent is reopened for public use, basically becoming worthless to the og company. This duration would then loop for the 20 years patent duration. I.e: They get 4 games of exclusively using this system before it becomes permanently public. This would discourage greed as we see with this system and would encourage cooperation and development of the gaming-sphere.

[@limitbreak2966]

Honestly I’m so angry that they patented the nemesis system. It works so good. And there’s never gonna be a shadow of Mordor/war 3 so we won’t see it there again

[@AnthonyBC93]

I hope to god the Nemisis doesnt come to MK. The gameplay of MK isnt vast enough. There would be no difference between a tower and Nemisis. It would be a waste

[@ledeltaorokin6114]

Well this is strange, Warframe has done by now 2 Nemesis systems in the game, one for the Grineer faction: The Kuva Lich, and the Corpus faction: The Sisters of Parvos. Though I think it hasn't been taken down since it's a watered down version of the OG Nemesis System. When you kill a special enemy in a mission, it will return as an Immortal Nemesis. If you try to kill them in this state, they will not die, coming back stronger and taking over other planets resulting in increasing the reward tax they establish on the planet. The only way to kill them for good is by discovering their code sequence, who you get from their minions called Thralls for the Grineer and Hounds for the Corpus. When you execute the right order onto the Nemesis, they will become Mortal and retreat to a Capital ship in space, where you will go for a Final Showdown. If you spare them, they will become your ally, appearing on missions after you died once; but if you kill them, you will get their weapons, which are unique from the rest of the game.

[@ElOsoMarino]

What a waste is right

[@BlakeCerisano]

The microtransactions also kind of ruined the nemesis system, because the reason it is so good was developing relationships with the orcs and watching them grow from grunt to powerhouse (whether for you or against you). But with the microtransactions you just spawned a legendary orc out of thin air with no backstory or relationship building.

[@TheMasterMind144]

Yup, that's why they removed the in-game currency loot boxes as well. Still, you could create a backstory with them if you wanted by sending them to the pit fights for example, or shaming them and then re-dominating them.

[@CastroJr92]

Pisses me off that they were aboe to successfully patent a f'Ing gameplay mechanic in the first place and then haven't done shit with it since and of all the games they plan to implement with it...Wonder Woman.

[@Splincir]

I was just talking about the nemesis system the other day and how its a crime that more games havent implemented it or something like it.

[@jakel2837]

The worst part of the patent is WB owning it. That means they can take it away from its creators and give it to some mobile trash studio

[@masterrafferty4065]

Maybe our real nemesis was the friends we made along the way.