The Heather Trope - Why We're So Obsessed with Her

[@thetake]

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[@AxxLAfriku]

yeah!

[@madeleinedarnoco5190]

Hey :) if you want to be more inclusive in future videos, you could refer to ambiguous love interests or relationships like in the song Heather as being from more than one gender, rather than both sexes. This not only acknowledges that identity goes beyond genes, but also includes more than the cisnormative binary. Maybe this helps :)

[@rooboatdeer22yu51]

I dethroned a heather today. It was bitter sweet, I was never jealous of her but I was disappointed she wasn't who I thought she was.

[@pqpqpq5685]

The Take I love your videos but I was sad to see you'd chosen a gambling company to sponsor you - although gambling companies have to adhere to regulations they still contribute significantly to propelling gambling addictions in vulnerable people. Morally it just feels wrong to be contributing to this

[@kuramacabre]

Even the OG Heathers had their struggles. Chandler felt dirty for being oversexualized by everyone. Duke had an ED. McNamara had suicidal thoughts. But no one trully sees them with transparency, ever. Not even after the Chandler's "suicide", because society keeps seeing them through their own optics.

[@user-ks7vd5oy1r]

Such a good movie tho I'm glad I'm from a generation with good movies I also loved welcome home Roxy Carmichael but no one seems to remember it but me. I really relate to the girl in that movie

[@Whackadoo1]

Chandler also had parents who are/ soon to be divorced. You see a self help book in her locker in one scene about how to deal with parental divorce.

[@inessa5923]

That's what makes them Heathers.

[@tam9856]

True

[@Sunnyomor]

@@Whackadoo1 Which book is this?

[@trinaq]

I love how "Heathers" took great strides to humanise each of the titular clique. They are all clearly miserable trying to maintain their popularity, and the victims (Chandler, Kurt and Ram) are portrayed as having people who genuinely loved them, despite how cruel they were in life.

[@judeannethecandorchannel2153]

Whose cruelty? Good comment! But a little confusing...⚘🏵😌🏵⚘

[@amandaredd3057]

absolutely

[@caramelbilquees]

You mean the victim is genuinely loved despite the bullies cruelty on them

[@nameless568]

@@judeannethecandorchannel2153 the jocks were full on assholes especially to Veronica earlier on abs to green heather

[@thegreenmanofnorwich]

@@caramelbilquees I think that it's that despite being pretty awful, they each have funerals with people who genuinely cared for them. Like Kurt and Ram's funeral, where the dad says he loved his son, and one of them has a little sister crying, which acts as one of Veronica's wake up calls.

[@sleepysized]

‘clueless’ is such a good movie which portrays the popular girl in a positive light. someone who is genuinely nice, caring, lovable while also being the popular girl. Sure she had her shortcomings but she is shown to realise them and work towards bettering herself and being kinder to people around her. Overall just a different and more refreshing take on the ‘heather trope’. To this day i fail to understand why that movie is so underrated. ! i love that movie !

[@she7061]

I absolutely love Cher. She’s so… realistic? She genuinely feels like a person, a stuck up one but not to an exaggerated extent

[@audiho]

Underrated? Definitely one of the top hits of the 90s.

[@sleepysized]

@@audiho i am talking about this time and age, as i am 17 and i wasn't alive in the 90s.

[@samf.s.7731]

I love Tina Fey's version of what happened on 30 Rock. She wrote mean girls, but then she made sure to acknowledge that just because you're jealous of someone for being good looking or feeling put down by the fact that they're perfect, doesn't make them bullies. I just feel so bad that media popularized that trope over actually looking after teens mental health while they deal with issues like their stress with their changing bodies and having physical attraction towards other people. The implication that her Heather was not really a Heather is more close to reality than how things are usually depicted.

[@JC-yy8iv]

I also liked the other side of it, the reveal that Liz was actually cruel, and that she saw herself as punching up but she was actually just an asshole. That’s kind of my and my friends’ story, we saw ourselves as righteously pissed about being outcasts or whatever but we were actually just kind of bitchy, maladjusted teenagers who hated everything for no good reason. We were the unpopular mean girls (which is also an excellent Take video)

[@CarolinaRamosLora]

I'm really fascinated how Jenifer's body is now a cult movie.

[@anaclaudiasiqueira1598]

Right?

[@Whackadoo1]

It was only a matter of time.

[@ruffethereal1904]

It was criminally mismarketed, is what happened. Sexist and close-minded movie executives trying to bank on male-gaze sex appeal when the movie was supposed to be for women.

[@inessa5923]

@@Whackadoo1 A disconsolate fact, which forces me to imagine all of the similar great movies we could have gotten, had Jennifer's Body not recieved such backlash.

[@katyadade1041]

I have rewatched it last year and it still has increadibly cringy writing. The dialogues are just so unnatural actors look ridiculous voicing them. I don't think its important topics do really save Jenifer's Body.

[@jessicavictoriacarrillo7254]

Can you do the: Big Beautiful Woman, the Mistress, the Plain Jane, the Ethnic Overbearing Mother, the Wallflower, Turning Red, Narcissistic Parents, the Marriage pushing Mom (and how her actions can hurt)

[@trinaq]

Yes, please, I'd really love to see "Big Beautiful Woman", and how it shows that body size doesn't make you any less attractive.

[@jessicavictoriacarrillo7254]

@@trinaq But also how, like their smaller Bombshell sister, face disrespect over their desirability and size added to that. Either over sexualized or insulted.

[@chunkystains8950]

Oh yeah, marriage pushing mom...or bring forced to marry when getting pregnant.

[@iam4onthesideof2w3]

Oh yeaah "The Plain Jane" would be an amazing theme, esp when Euphoria just gave us one of the most likable *but controversial* characters of this trope - Lexi Howard

[@amandaredd3057]

Yes, please!

[@selkiefluff]

To me this trope is entertaining because I honestly cannot imagine a person like this imagine in real life. The only "leaders" I saw in high school were people with narcissistic and overbearing personalities who were always surrounded by people who would drink and party with them, but not literal servants - when trouble was afoot, they were always left alone.

[@JC-yy8iv]

For sure, to me it feels like kind of a copy of a copy of a copy of reality, know what I mean? Like over time the movies reference each other more than real life, and the hierarchy and structure sort of gets gently exaggerated each time until it bears only a passing resemblance to reality. High school movies are based on high school movies instead of high school

[@EspaALSC]

Heartbroken that the cartoon Total Drama wasn't mentioned because they have a literal caracter named Heather that is supposed to be the embodiment of the archetype of the Mean Gril/Queen B character (the show parodies reality shows as well as character archetypes) and she ends up being the most well developed character in the show. But this video was absolutely fantastic!

[@tyralee2286]

I thought the same thing

[@xoxoRachelZegerSuperfan]

She was ROBBED in season 3 too, I’ll forever be bitter about that, all for the sake of a stupid reference most of the child audience probably didn’t even get

[@grassj6002]

She should've won WT ngl 😔

[@emmanuelobandodiaz5860]

@@xoxoRachelZegerSuperfan She won, she canonically won, her ending was the first made in production and also the first one being aired to the public. Also, the creators said each ending could be cannon because the winner is not referenced the next season, as it all kind of reboots.

[@emmanuelobandodiaz5860]

@@grassj6002 There is also the official Total Drama channel in youtube that published all the episodes, and the Alejandro ending is titled as (Alternative) Ending, plus it was released in less countries than Heather

[@marieoconnell6191]

This is really interesting considering most of the popular girls at my high school weren't nearly as mean as girls that weren't popular. So many girls hated them because they assumed they were bitchy high school stereotypes, even though they hadn't actually done anything. The amount of times I heard people say they hated them, and when asked why, replied that they: were fake, thought they were better than other people, had bad personalities, were annoying, dumb, sluts, ect. And never once realised that they were actually the mean ones in the situation. Another sad part is that everyone thinks its ok to hate on them because its punching up, without realising that most of them do not have perfect lives, and in fact a lot of them came from abusive home environments, have conditions like ADHD that made them seem loud or annoying, had genuinely tragic things going on in their lives (I heard a girl call a 'popular' girl a skank, the girls sister had just died). Not to mention a lot of them were just extraverted and trying to be friendly. And obviously some of them could be mean or rude, but honestly I've never met someone who hasn't done something mean in high school, even just accidentally. The amount of hate these girls took from other girls is ridiculous, it's important to remember that 'popular' people are not a hive-mind, that they are their own individual people that are going through things and deserve kindness.

[@historylover9999]

Seriously some of the meaniest girls at my school were not attractive

[@tiagomadureira6401]

An interesting video could be about the new girl trope that dethrones and replaces the queen bee.

[@amandaredd3057]

yes!

[@faizahanif9515]

agreed

[@laninfapimentel311]

They kind of already did (kinda). The video about the special girl is about this kind of girl who is a newcomer and steals the show because she's so special and wholesome. She herself thinks that someone else should take the cake, because she's so normal. But ther's something about her that makes people choose her over the stereotypical pretty popular girl.

[@Missmagazinebura]

Lol I wish Gabriella did in high school musical

[@JC-yy8iv]

7:45 I actually don’t love this quote though. The idea that relational aggression is specifically female, while men simply engage in direct, overt aggression is a fallacy that just won’t die. Men engage in relational aggression all the time, they do all the same character assassination, social exclusion, gossip etc. But the idea that this behavior is female or feminine just will not die, even when any of us can see right in front of our faces that men do it too

[@inessa5923]

"Women gossip, men exchange information."

[@lucypeace6132]

Research shows that men and women engage in gossip at the same rate. Gossip, in itself, is a way to cement social bonds. The negative connotations around gossip started during the renaissance period during the beginning of the witch trials. Controlling women's gossip, was a great way of dividing women and created the very bitchiness women are now accused of all the time. The impression stayed, with 'gossip' being seen as a wholly female, bitchy thing, when it actually works for social bonding in the same way grooming does in big apes.

[@vi.v]

That's why movies like "Geek Charming" are so refreshing... They give the "Heather" (who is Dylan in this movie) a voice and she is shown as more than a popular mean girl

[@PrettyPrincess9609]

I would love if you do a trope on the nerdy girl or plus size girl who was bullied in high school who later comes back and gets her revenge on the girls who bullied her.

[@ashleightompkins3200]

The 'Carrie White'

[@edithputhy4948]

like Insatiable

[@karawardlaw4090]

You Again with Kristen Bell

[@jessicavictoriacarrillo7254]

"The Girl Most Likely To..." starring Stockard Channing

[@inessa5923]

Love this. The "Reunion Revenge" trope should be included, as well. Someone who was picked on, teased or outright abused during their high school years takes their revenge on their tormentors during a class reunion, like in Bloody Reunion, Romy and Michele's High School Reunion, or even the season 1 finale in Nanno.

[@heatherstevens4539]

As a Heather, I clearly failed to live up to my name.

[@ksen333]

Heather come on step up your game

[@rosegirl3220]

Is your profile picture a keeshound or a pomeranian

[@SunflowerHeather]

I hear that

[@heatherstevens4539]

RoseGirl a chow chow :)

[@trinaq]

Love your profile picture, Heather. How... Very!

[@witchplease9695]

Is there a male version of this trope? The “Chad/Brad”? The golden boy type characters that are popular and either written as a shallow passive love interest or a troubled hero that undergoes character development?

[@melodyclark1944]

Yes, the jerk jock is the counterpart to the mean girl

[@Starburst514]

Yeah the jerk jock whose also dumb. I've seen a few instances of that trope being turned on its head the few years but not nearly enough as the Heather or Popular Girl trope

[@lizethwalker]

The Andre

[@lindenpeters2601]

Would be very interesting. How much you wanna bet the Chad trope *won't* be described as a victim??

[@writteninthestars02]

I just want a high school movie where the stereotype mean girl is trying SO HARD to get the prom queen crown or whatever and has a bunch of people telling her "girl, it's just high school. Chill out."

[@Spicie95]

From my experience in school, I feel like teen movies are written from the perspective of the unpopular kid in school. The popular are always mean, which doesn't really make that much sense when you think about it, since being popular essentially means to be well-liked. I wasn't popular, not because people didn't like me, but because my Asperger's made it hard for me to be social and do school work at the same time. All my energy went into simply showing up to school, masking my syndrome (pre-diagnosis though), and getting through classes doing the work I actually liked and skipping the rest. I had a few friends, who were also the non-populars. When I watch teen movies, I usually identify with the main characters who hate the popular mean girls, but if I am realistic, most of those conflicts in the movies assume that the popular kids actually care about tearing the other kids down just to boost their own egos. The only cases I ever had of mean girls, were a girl in my primary school who tried to be Regina George, probably because she thought that was being popular, but I think she grew out of it after she realised she didn't rule as queen bee the same way Regina does (she was definitely annoyed that I didn't bow to her); the other one was in secondary school, where I had a classmate everyone disliked, and since she knew that, she tried to assert herself as at least being more popular than I was, but it didn't work, since no one had a reason to dislike me the same way they did her. It would be cool to watch a psychological teen movie about a character who is so convinced they are unpopular and that the popular kids bully them, only to find out that no one really has anything against them.

[@inessa5923]

You are so very right in your belief that teen movies are written by the unpopular kids. I feel like that's where movies like Never Been Kissed and Heathers come from; it's the cinematized fantasy of a previously unpopular kid who dreamed about getting to do high school "right" by either destroying or climbing on top of the hierarchy.

[@Spicie95]

@laurabuchanan3846 I also had more bullies who were boys. They mostly grouped together to pick on me, and this one kid was the class clown who annoyed me for a bit. I think for them, it was because it was fun.

[@claytonadair5080]

I think it’s similar to what the video says. Maybe they need to be written as 3-D dimensional characters with their own weakness and strength.

[@DarkwaveMistress]

Anyone who had to put up with a "Heather" knows that they really aren't complex, deep and troubled girls. Most of the time they are just mean, immature people who take advantage of social structures that favor them. Whatever their personal troubles are, bullying isn't justified. Them learning empathy would be a great message.

[@fazekaswahiba3922]

Indeed. People with actual character, who are capable of enjoying genuinely fulfilling relationships, are rarely, if ever competitive or obsessed with social status. The obsession with the spotlight is usually an attempt to compensate for a perceived inner lack. In other words, mean people are just insecure narcissists. It's that simple.

[@DarkwaveMistress]

@@fazekaswahiba3922 Very much. People can grow, certainly, but to do so they need to see the actual consequences of their behaviour and not be coddled into thinking they are just poor little misunderstood angels. Of course abusive behaviour stems sometimes from suffering it, but not always. Not most of the time. Most people who have been through horrible abuse aren't bullies themselves.

[@hannahmetzger4880]

@@DarkwaveMistress Some people who have been abused _can_ become horrible, abusive people too, you know, even if they do end up changing in the end. I mean, Hell, just take a look at Catra from _She-Ra and the Princesses of Power._ :P.

[@kaitietheukulelelady5645]

I've put up with Heather's in highschool who are very kind now. People grown up. Most of us are different than we were as teenagers or young adults.

[@DarkwaveMistress]

@@hannahmetzger4880 sure, it's not impossible of course. But at least in my experience they tend to become more self destructive than bullies or abusers.

[@IckyNicky67]

This is very interesting. I think a good example of a Heather would have to be Maddy from Euphoria. On the surface, she's popular, a cheerleader, physically attractive, super confident, and can be aggressive/assertive to the point where people would think she's mean. She could easily have been the stereotypical mean girl Heather if we knew nothing about her life or how she really is as a person around the people she loves. But Euphoria really does a great job shedding light into how her life is nowhere near perfect. We've seen her childhood, with a working class background and having parents who are stuck in a loveless marriage. We've seen her deal with being in an abusive, toxic relationship and we've seen her deal with her best friend betraying her and how heartbroken she was because of that betrayal. While Maddy is in no way perfect by any means, we're able to view her with empathy as an audience because we've seen her vulnerabilities as a human being. I'm so surprised that The Take hasn't mentioned her at all.

[@calyyygrazie8]

I feel like Cassie fits the bill a bit more tbh. Especially with the audiences reaction to her.

[@calyyygrazie8]

There's a sense of other that these girls have that Maddie doesn't have, I think because unlike the rest of them, she isn't white and blonde

[@IckyNicky67]

@@calyyygrazie8 I'd have to disagree. In season 1, Cassie was seen as a very beautiful, but nice girl. Yes, she was popular, but she didn't give that same air of confidence (which would be mistaken for a Heather's arrogance) as Maddy. The only issue we've seen with Cassie (remember, on the surface) is that she had naked photos posted on the internet, which sadly gave her the reputation as school slut, but never the mean girl. And in season 2, she was hated by most of the audience because she hooked up with her best friend's ex-boyfriend. If Cassie were a true Heather, she would have been hated because of people's jealous attitudes towards her and/or because they assume she's a mean girl because she's pretty and popular. Unlike Maddy, no one assumed that Cassie's a mean girl because she's pretty and popular. People are assuming Cassie is mean because she backstabbed her friend.

[@mewesquirrel6720]

She's just a angry Mexican that's it

[@inessa5923]

​@@calyyygrazie8 I don't think hair or skin-color is what makes or doesn't make a Heather. I'll never see Maddy as a Heather because she wears her heart on her sleeve. She is in a great deal of pain, yes, but she shows it. She's openly angry, she's openly vulnerable, she's openly struggling. The actual Heathers are untouchable, almost unearthly girls, who don't ever let their facade crumble, even in the company of close "friends" or family. They only have themselves. You can't really put Maddy in that category.

[@Renee84]

For the Heathers who are bullies and difficult to get along with, how can anyone "listen to them" if they are, well, bullies?

[@Starburst514]

I always took it that they were the kind of incingito bully, when they were bullies. Like nice on the outside but low key manipulative, and so low-key with it you don't realize for a long time the way they play with your feelings and influence you, because they have a front of being nice, likeable and interested in you So a lot of people like them in a surface level, but then people who are really really close to them have been manipulated, bullied, and controlled in an insidious way that it might be years til they recognize they're in a toxic friendship

[@jessicavictoriacarrillo7254]

@@Starburst514 I guess it's for the adults

[@Starburst514]

@@jessicavictoriacarrillo7254 eh, yeah it's more adult way of bullying, but teens can do it too. That's kinda what happens in mean girls, it's basically backstabbing

[@sydposting]

A good way of engaging these sorts of people is Socratic Reasoning, with a varnish of Good Faith to make it easier for them to accept. In my PERSONAL experience, the best way to turn an uncomfortable situation into a potential "learning opportunity" is to ask only one question - "What do you mean by that?" If they get defensive, you have every right to back away. Just know that you *asking* is a normal and rational action, and the Heather you're trying to talk to only "rejected" your action because of how their own mind is structured. Patience and grace - allowing both yourself AND the Heather time and space to process your encounters with each other - is the key here. Recognizing a desire to withdraw and heal, and following through by giving yourself time and space away from the Heather, is not a sign of weakness, but wisdom and preservation. Look after yourself, first and foremost. Whether or not the Heather learns from your example is their prerogative, not yours, and "pleasing" them is not worth excess mental effort. You are doing just fine as you are. ♥

[@thevirtualtraveler]

Also, as a person born in '76, I literally had three girls named Heather in my 6th grade class.

[@migangelmart]

I was also born in 76 but my school had three popular Jessicas

[@thevirtualtraveler]

@@migangelmart Yeah, Jessicas and Jennifers abounded too, with a glut of Scotts. And weirdly, my school district had three Jills in my grade (although not all in my class), but I don't think Jill was a super trendy name then. And when I moved to the South, I encountered a lot of Alexises my age.

[@laninfapimentel311]

I think the Heather trope has everything to do with the demonisation of hyperfeminity. In real life, you can't be girly without being socially punished for it. In Hollywood, the rejection of hyperfeminity materializes itself as the mean girl. She's always depicted as angry, toxic, and self absorbed to the point of narcissism.

[@iprobablyforgotsomething]

Good point re the media, for sure. There's a lot of social punishing via media of traditional girly-girls atm. Which is just another way for another largely-male run industry to put women in their place, but now behind the mask of another woman (character's) face. . My school dynamics did not *quite* mirror this supposedly common-irl trope, though. The most popular girl (of my age range) in my school was quite feminine and pretty but not a Heather at all. . Her bestie was a Heather, and also popular and pretty, but not quite as much. She definitely had that fakey-kind backstabber way people like that get. You know, where half the people like her because they don't know her true face, and the other half were divided between those who feared her and those who just didn't care? . She seemed to *aspire* to queendom -- the praise as the prettiest, most-loved, best singer of the choir, etc. -- yet her femininity seemed (although I didn't yet know this word) performative; mimicing her friend's moves for success. But everybody was already pretty well united in liking better her 'best friend' who was actually quite decent a person. . I had the random chance opportunity to hear some of the 'friendly' stabs she made, and to see the darkly jealous looks she directed at her friend's back (we three shared some classes) more than once. She was definitely not a genuine person in many ways, though I guess I can't say for sure how far that went into her projected and expressed gender. . I do think Hollywood confused and combined the genuinely sweet and feminine-by-choice popular girl with the performatively-feminine fake-nice popular girl. Who is just copying the girly-girl's perceived success with the tools available to women on the assumption that it was solely the tools (looks, traditions of behaviour, etc.) that gave the gG success w/o consideration for how her personality, sincerity and overall character played a role. . But they're definitely two different kinds of people, of mentalities, for all that they outwardly appear to be the same.

[@leiladarragh4357]

Agreed. Women are socialized into hyperfemininity and then punished and derided for embodying that socialization too successfully (or else for failing to embody it competently).

[@justkay233]

i was best friends with a heather for years. she was beloved by everyone and so crazy beautiful. she was a part of two love triangles and took the high road every time. she was also put under a huge amount of pressure by her parents to be ambitious and political and successful. even as she cried her eyes out over her tragedies and very real flaws, i couldn't help sitting there and thinking, "gosh i would trade my life for hers in a heartbeat."

[@amandaborges9218]

omg this was so beautifully written congrats

[@hungoverpuppy3907]

I remember how I was always the nerdy one, and one day I ended up befriending a meanish popular girl, and some of her friends. I learned one thing, most of these girls are MISERABLE in the inside! A lot of them have a lot of unhealed trauma, some of the LOWEST self esteem I ever seen in a person, and they usually have the most dysfunctional families I ever seen. I used to be kinda jealous of them, but after seeing what their life and mental state was like, I couldn't be jealous.

[@GoddesssofMind]

Can you do one on kids who were bullied or ignored in high school . Then they went on to become influencers, models, entertainers.

[@Marina-wi3rs]

Yes- the glow up! ( think they’ve covered the make-over before). But make-over and glow up can be different

[@mewesquirrel6720]

That's so lame 🙄

[@sydposting]

That requires a ton of context. Are the kids who "became" influencers truly influencers due to their talent, or do they have a (potentially predatory) agency supporting them and/or maintaining their social media accounts? In addition, are they also they kids that actively sought out fame from an early age? Because that involves a very different mental "drive" that is very easily exploited. I would love to hear you elaborate on the topic, so I can better understand where you're coming from! 🤗

[@Missmagazinebura]

Alison Rae

[@sollombardo8699]

When I went into an exchange program I met a girl who was "perfect" like she would be the heather. I met her on a trip we did with all the other exchange students. She was kinda annoying tho, and everyone were saying that she is such a obsessive brat cause she was so forcible with our "teacher" about letting her workout before every night at the camp. I thought like "omg she is so obsessive with being perfect". We went to the capital of the country and in the way back to the camp Idk what I said but she sat next to me and we started talking. She told me that she is recovering from anorexia, that in her country (Germany) beauty standars were horrible and that working out was the only thing that made her feel less bad when she had eaten. I felt so bad for her and I felt so dumb. She was actually nice and when we said goodbye she looked so happy that she made a friend (she had friends but only the ones who share natiolity) and she told me that if I ever go to Germany, I can stay in her house.

[@tylerhackner9731]

I’ve seen some heathers at my school, tho thankfully she opens up to the fact that she’s lonely and admits her problems

[@gemmamoon5998]

It’s seems like you’re mixing two different “popular girl” tropes here. The popular girl who is pretty and above it all and the popular girl who is preppy and cares only about success.

[@inessa5923]

I mean, a "popular girl" trope as a superordinate phrase that branches out into many different types that aren't exclusive to each other. There's the conservative, authoritarian power-house popular girl; the liked, approachable popular girl; the rich, priviledged popular girl; the new, mysterious popular girl; the gorgeous, magnetic popular girl etc. At the end of the day, a lot of these categories mix into each other, anyway.

[@sinnaminshouse3]

I see your point but isn’t that Heather. It meets both~the preppy/success driven girl who is pretty and above it all. Yes they can be separate but most of the time, it’s a mixture. No one fits perfectly in both boxes. People are complex and so are Heathers.

[@Missmagazinebura]

Blair Waldorf

[@ruthdubb3274]

I'm surprised you didn't mention how in "Romy and Michele's High School Reunion" Romy and Michele who were being tortured by their Heathers turned out to be Heathers to Janeane Garofalo's ironically named Heather Mooney character who in turn was torturing poor Toby (Camryn Manheim). Apparently everybody was a Heather to somebody else.

[@dikshamaheshwari4003]

Idk about how mean Serena was, but she’s definitely a Heather. Her whole charming personality and angelic looks make her so popular that even the Queen B was always insecure around her.

[@Missmagazinebura]

She used to be queen

[@thevirtualtraveler]

I feel as if, with it's PG13 rating, Mean Girls completely eclipsed Heathers for a really long time (basically, an entire generation - Millennials). So I'm glad to see it finally getting the recognition it so richly deserves.

[@mecheva9098]

It is interesting to try to see what is behind a "Heather" by deconstructing the subverting the trope. But there is also something to be said for accepting that the "Heather" as originally portrayed, is simply a bad person. At what point does an immature bully become a predator? At what point do we hold a person accountable for their actions? When do we stop making excuses and accept that some behavior is wrong?

[@TabbyeLynne]

I can't believe you didn't even mentioned Cordelia Chase

[@Leto85]

01:50 She's voiceless because the Heather is often seen through the eyes of others which results in people only seeing their own insecurities projected onto the Heather. Thank you for that! That just makes a whole lot sence, and not only about this trope, but every other that other characters could look up too out of insecurity.

[@barbarajloriordan2697]

I met my Heather when I was in the fourth grade. She treated me poorly, and at that time in my life I did not know how to come back from the experience. I blamed her for my pain and struggles. I eventually came to understand that she only represented the birth of my own inner critic, that she didn’t do anything to me that I did not do to myself. I, finally, was the person who had to take responsibility for hurting myself and also for healing myself. It was also important for me to understand that she was acting out of her own inner hurting and that she, too, needed healing. I think that hating the Heathers is one of our ways of hiding from ourselves that we are responsible for our own pain. The image attracts us so that we can revisit the problem and acquire insight about it; at the same time, the image can blinds us to the depth of the situation until we can finally come to the point of seeing it through. One thing that I like about the ending of Mean Girls is that Cady says Hi to Regina, and they share a friendly smile before each going their own way. That signifies to me that the situation has been resolved on both sides.

[@juliarboleda7460]

this reminds me of genevieve in to all the boys I loved before, she was seen as a popular and mean girl with the typical boyfriend, but we learn that she always envied lara jean and wanted to be like her by pretending. love the video

[@Starburst514]

And she had a reason too, which to us and Laura Jean, can intially be brushed off as "nothing" or "little", cause it was like a middle school kiss and years ago but she said "Well it meant something to me". Which shows now only was she truly hurt, but that she's had her own inner life and feelings outside of her "role" that she was set up as, she had been truly upset and what she did in the first movies isn't justified, but she does in her own mind have a real reason for being upset

[@juliarboleda7460]

@@Starburst514 genevieve was seen as fake and typical, but she was goin through a hard time with her parents to

[@inessa5923]

True. Although, Gen was a horrible person and I hated the redemption arc they gave her in the third film.

[@awholenewworld5796]

I never took Alana for a Heather. Maybe the movie doesn't highlight this, but Alana is just as invisible as Evan. She is not popular, which is why she cares so much about the Connor project. She thinks 'no one deserves to be forgotten' even if they're 'the barely in the background kind of guy'.

[@inessa5923]

I wish they would've included Maléna in this; a kind, stoic "Heather" that was made the villain for her otherworldly beauty.

[@sakuranovaryan9261]

Which show is she from

[@alohaestr7242]

@@sakuranovaryan9261 Malena is the name of the movie. It's an Italian movie

[@victoriaball8466]

In life we are both “Heather” and the person who hates Heather, we will hate someone for any reason and that’s the same way around back at us! To be the true “Heather” it should just be about being kind, loving, and understanding of everyone around us ❤️

[@lyndsaybrown8471]

I've definitely met older women who only valued fitting the male gaze their whole lives, so I can definitely see how "The Heather" trope started, especially in the hyperfem/hypermasc 80s. But it is just a stereotype that most people, if you actually talked to them, don't fall into. Regrettably, I was very "not like other girls" in high school, so I wonder if me and my friend group were the actual Heathers of our high school.

[@BKME19]

The Take is putting out content fast! Love to see it.

[@Capricorn152]

Honestly a full deconstruction of The Faculty's archetypes would be perfect, this was so good

[@elTenedor2]

What? Tracy Flick (Reese Witherspoon's character in Election) wasn't remotely popular. I don't think she had a single friend. That's one of the reasons she fell prey to the teacher who groomed her - she had nobody else to connect to.

[@tadakuniyasuda8214]

Well she *was legitimately elected, beating the jock, by majority and we saw her chatting and speaking with other guys at student counsel. She was kind of dictated the guys to put up her poster right ? Remember, it was that high school guys who spoke up against Mr MacCallister( spelling ?) at the climax? They were the helpers of Tracy. And as she narrated in the first act, she didn’t seem like truly victim of the prey though it was wrong. (Please forgive me, I love that film)

[@inessa5923]

I'd argue that most "popular girl" characters don't have a single friend. They have collaborators, worshippers, fans, and followers, but not friends. And most of them don't actually have anyone to connect to.

[@tadakuniyasuda8214]

@@inessa5923 well that is exactly what Tracy Flick was, or would be after the movie, so I still stand by my point. I am a big fan and worshipper and would be a follower to her but at the same time i understand she is lonely, i mean, she is the "popular" without true friends.

[@fortune_roses]

*"Thoroughbreds"* (Anya Taylor-Joy & Olivia Cooke) is a movie that liberates the "Heather" from societal woes in the darkest way... interesting stuff

[@lovecraftianleviathan8918]

Never seen it, but that title sounds very eugenics-y. Is it?

[@Starburst514]

@@lovecraftianleviathan8918 I think it's like super rich popular girls and murder, not really eugenics

[@winterbutterfly8861]

I loved that movie, gotta watch it again

[@lovecraftianleviathan8918]

@@Starburst514 I know it’s a Mean Girls/Heathers type of movie, I’m not saying it’s _about_ eugenics, I’m saying judging from the title and with those two gorgeous actresses starring in it might Death of the Author-wise imply some eugenics-y ideas.

[@luvsthespotlight]

I was today years old when I realized the Ashleys are a Heathers reference

[@mollymoonface3407]

I absolutely haaaaate KZbin ads. I smash the “skip ad” button as soon as it pops up… everywhere except here. I love this channel and your analysis videos so much I let the ads play all the way through in hopes that it supports you to make more. Please never stop breaking down movies, shows, tropes, and messages in media. I love them so McFreaking much.

[@DaddyOfTheSugarVariety]

I went to school with a popular girl named Heather, but she was super nice.

[@judeannethecandorchannel2153]

9:25 Actually, Tracy Fleck Wasn't popular. She was just tenacious. She was more like "a grind," all work and no fun. The football player was the popular candidate, but Tracy won by one wrote because she campaigned so hard and tore down his posters. Otherwise: Great video!

[@somethingcooliguess]

Yes! Was just going to comment this! She was a Type-A overachiever, but never would be in the Heather group.

[@judeannethecandorchannel2153]

@@somethingcooliguess Totally~⚘😌⚘

[@Tinkerbe11]

I don't think I ever had a Heather in my life. There were girls in my school who I envied for being more attractive than I was or for getting the guy I loved, but they never were mean to me and I never was afraid of them or hated them. They just taught me the lesson that I can't always get what I want, and that's how life ist - and I'm sure they had things, too, they wanted and could not get.

[@Missmagazinebura]

I don’t any of the heathers

[@thehapagirl92]

Speaking of “Jolene” by Dolly Parton, there was a “Heather” in high school whose name was Jolene and she was hapa (Asian and White) like that male singer

[@natalie651]

I remember your Heathers video. That was when you used to analyze movies rather than just do tropes. Aww the good old days.

[@ivettecastle3420]

Can you do a video about the enemy to lovers trope? Its cliche but i want to know why people (including me) like it so much.

[@evangelynbeltran202]

Omgggg I write enemies to lovers Rodrick Heffley x Reader fanfiction on A03

[@mariapaz6379]

what i find more interesting, is the punching up dinamic that we create. Its like we excuse bad actions because we do it towards bad people. But we only define them as bad people because we categorize them in stereotypes. When we make assumptions and act mean due to those assumptions, aren't we bad people?

[@RoninRen]

Although I really hope it's not as a prodominant story element, as it is today, essentially with unrequited love stories, what is it with a communal shaming the "beloved" for not returning the "admirer" feelings? Or for that matter the wrong/mixed messages with characters that are basically stalkers? that with comedy sitcoms making it some kind of personality quirk, humanize them, or tragically somebody(a person that avoided their crush at all costs) that winds-up framed as their crush's murderer,

[@RoninRen]

@Anjali exactly,

[@stevegeorge6880]

Hot take. Fight Club is a remake of Heathers.

[@chloegraves8305]

My best friend is literally the description of heather in Conan grays song. And her name is HEATHER

[@PhilospherDjPsychologist24]

the irony of jolene is that jolene is actually in love with the singer, to make it that the singer loved jolene has it so backwards

[@mewesquirrel6720]

I know this girl in school who was pretty inside and out and got along with guys and girls. She even had glasses but was genuinely pretty at the same time. She was like a Heather to me

[@_JD_Heart_]

HEATHERS THE MUSICAL YES!!!

[@jessicavictoriacarrillo7254]

Would Joan Holloway in early seasons of Mad Men count? But in Season 2, we find out her fawning secretaries look down on her when they find out she is single and 30

[@amandaredd3057]

I love me some Joan

[@yolandacarroll558]

@@amandaredd3057 Me too! 😀

[@annabunovsky5628]

I kinda wish that when they brought up the Ashley’s they'd gotten into how Spinelli herself is an Ashley. The show used her to explore ideas about gender norms in some really interesting ways. We find out through the series that Spinelli is a talented artist and makes a great ballerina but tries to hide that part of herself because she wants to maintain her tough tomboy reputation. She even says she doesn’t hate being named Ashley, but rather the assumptions about her that come with it.

[@favouriteghost]

I feel like Cruel Summer deserves a mention in the modern version of this too.

[@Missmagazinebura]

But she was nice til her life was taken away

[@gummy5862]

It’s funny because I think some people perceive me as a “Heather” even though I’m not actually popular.

[@hanhdoan9101]

Heather walked so Mean Girls could run

[@anjalidevi7168]

You can take the Heather out of high school, but you can't take high school out of the Heather. (I'm speaking from personal experience)

[@kerrajohnson3203]

*NOTE TO SELF: Create black teen girl comedy film*

[@Missmagazinebura]

There arnt many black mean girls on tv

[@maxymw4531]

I feel like people misunderstand the Heathers reboot. By the end you realize it isn't really punching down like people think it is. I really enjoyed it and don't think it deserves the hate it gets if you really watch it

[@juri3678]

i wholeheartedly agree with you, if anything it punches everywhere and that’s what’s funny about it. The popularity structure remains, the main characters that benefit from it do change as society changes.

[@fromthehaven94]

Except they messed with perfection. They mistakenly made the assumption society had made "progress", and kept the Veronica and JD characters white. And they really didn't help themselves by essentially recreating the ending, which necessitated two delays, and an altered ending.

[@maxymw4531]

@@fromthehaven94 the ending didn't make either good people. It also makes fun of the fact chandler was only accepting people who are different in some way on purpose (as seen with McNamara getting kicked out when they find out she isn't a lesbian). Yes they made the popular kids unrealistic, but shows don't have to be realistic (ie euphoria) to be good and the show relates much more with poc and the heathers than with Veronica or jd. I felt tears for McNamara, and related a lot with Chandler. In contrast, with Veronica it was just a joy to see her be a messed up person, but I never empathized with her the same way I did in the original.

[@MaliceInCandyland]

The song Heather isn't about someone having a different sexual orientation. The love-interest would be bisexual and the narrator would be straight or bi. Conan crossdresses in the music video, but it's not gay to crossdress.

[@Nanthecowdog]

Speak also has a nod and the Heather trope. There’s a group of girls named the Veronica’s and the girl wanting to be in the clique is named Heather.

[@RoninRen]

not to ask for a tall order(it's still up to The Take to at least think about it for a future video essay) basically the sheltered character, or for that matter the mixed messages of stories about how emotional maturity happens, that if somebody experiences trauma(or if they lived through with tough times)than somehow it increases a person's emotional intelligence,

[@gabi4723]

The heather from the song isn't mean.... Have you guys listened to the song? There's even a part that says "how could I hate her? She's just an angel". The person envies heather for her popularity and beauty but she's not mean.

[@xandyk2944]

I feel like they wanted to talk abt the trope nd the song juss fits bc it's the name being popular/trended But yeah all we know about heather from the song is that conan's love interest likes her

[@michellem9444]

In Election, Tracy Flick was NOT in the "popular" crowd. That was the whole point of the popular, "jock" type running against her. The teacher thought that Paul would beat Tracy because he was popular and she wasn't. She even has a monologue where she complains how much easier certain people have it, because they were lucky enough to have advantages that she didn't.

[@something8245]

I really, really don't see how someone's life not being perfect makes it understandable when they treat other people like shit. If you're a Heather - you are not the person anyone should be empathizing with.

[@morgianasartre6709]

It made me think of Euphoria and how Maddy's character subverts expectations, cause I totally expected her to be a typical "Heather".

[@untzuy3744]

Great video as always, you should really review the (I actually don't know if it's a trope) but the woman that can't be controlled, like in The woman in train and Squatters ,those who aren't fetishized for being " crazy" but for their infidelity beauty and wildness. Usuallygirls who suffered in the past and are now unstable but wild and cannot be tamed , it's really interesting

[@archer1949]

I had no idea they tried to remake Heathers. What’s the point? It was such a product of its time.

[@kuramacabre]

Heathers stands the test of time, the musical has prooved it. But the reboot was absurd.

[@itsybitsy999]

Why does Hollywood try to remake anything that doesn't need to be remade? Money.

[@fromthehaven94]

@@kuramacabre Except mineral water in Ohio.

[@hardcandy9880]

Are we saying that the Heathers start the popular mean girl trope?

[@mikchik00]

This is the third video I’ve seen about heather. I’m not mad.

[@KittySnicker]

I was unaware of this term! I always thought of these girls as Reginas lol

[@lovelybrown9081]

Matthew Broderick was the actual villain in Election

[@jbtechcon7434]

2:46 That little dance was awkward enough without the filter making your hands disappear.

[@Genedide]

We need to take jabs at the classism of Rom Coms

[@anomaly05]

Kept waiting for the Jawbreaker discussion. Maybe it deserves its own video?

[@jareledeshad5059]

This video is unforgivable for not picturing Courtney Shane (Rose McGowan) from Jawbreaker 😭

[@Missmagazinebura]

How about the nice girl trope ?

[@malvavisco10]

“Titular Heathers of the title” - bit redundant, no???

[@sheh.9163]

Kim K profited off her Heather persona

[@truediva18]

so the Heather will turn into a Karen if not taken in for who they are as a real person and not just the persona set by us or them.

[@sfernando04]

“They all want me as a friend or fuck”, girl me too 😂🤣🙌🏿

[@southernfriedscandal1474]

I love the faculty so glad it was mentioned!!!

[@toshcameron366]

How many videos are the take going to produce about the plight of gorgeous white women, it's like half their vids at this point.

[@lilliangraham9850]

this movie needs a prequel

[@milktoasted]

Would Laura Palmer from Twin Peaks be considered a Heather? She wasn’t necessarily mean, but she was immortalized and glamorized by the mystery of her death like the Lisbon sisters in the Virgin Suicides.

[@angryfirefly]

I was always one of those girls that saw how superficial this all is. To this day, I still see what always happens: the popular girls turn on each other. Suddenly, their best friends that they see every day and helps them with anything, is just gone. Usually, when she gets a boyfriend or another group where her rank is higher. The popular girls in my group ended up the same as all the other girls. We all either had kids and got fat or we didn't and spend all of our time working.

[@yolandacarroll558]

In my high school the Heathers were named "Jennifer". 😀

[@StrikerVaskin]

The Take, I love what you guys are doing. Could you please do a video on this topic? The Pregnant Woman trope in the horror genre, such as: Women getting impregnated by aliens. Women turning into bloated hives for alien reproduction. A woman giving birth to a demonic child. A woman carrying a baby for an evil cult. Even men getting impregnated by an otherworldly seductress. Misogynist, sexist, rape culture, shock horror or just pushing a fear of aliens and demons? Is it possible to make a good horror/sci-fi movie without resorting to otherworldly beings impregnating women? Is it possible to make a story arc where the woman that was impregnated, is recovering from this mental scarring? Alien vs Predator: Requiem and Slither are all levels of wrong. Don't forget about Buffy The Vampire Slayer and The X-Files.

[@inessa5923]

"Is it possible to make a good horror/sci-fi movie without resorting to otherworldly beings impregnating women?" I've seen more good horror/sci-fi movies without supernatural pregnancies than with.

[@StrikerVaskin]

@@inessa5923 Well, which horror/sci-fi movies have you seen that don't have this trope? It seems that people can't stop thinking about the Xenomorph movies and Rosemary's Baby.

[@FlamesAndShadows]

I immediately thought of Slither as well, that scene with the townies was disturbing. Buffy?... You mean Cordelia on 'Angel The Series', right? Also Dragon Age: Origin's Broodmothers.

[@Crimson28]

“Her favorite movie is Varsity Blues” - About Regina George

[@tonilynn4383]

A Heather in high school is a Karen grown up. They may be miserable, hating their lives and putting up a front but when they don't get what they want; it gets ugly really fast. They make others miserable to feel better about themselves. When everything they care about is stripped away most of time you end up with a severely neglected, depressive, eating disorder, self centered person. Sad, but true. To busy trying to keep up appearances, that they don't know who they are.

[@bbbnnnlll]

The "Heathers" clique from season 3 of Drag Race is also worth noting for this trope.