The "Heavy Burdens" of Catholic Fundamentalism

[@Clyde-S-Wilcox]

"You cannot prohibit what the Church permits." This is a very low key truth bomb.

[@dreamweaver3406]

simple but so true

[@RockerfellerRothchild1776]

Ok.... the church permits "pride" masses . Check and mate

[@Recusant_]

Prove that the magisterium does​@@RockerfellerRothchild1776

[@mikeeng957]

So the church permits us to not use NFP? That would imply alternative means to contraception which the church does not permit. How else would you prevent pregnancy?

[@TheThreatenedSwan]

Capital punishment is back on the menu boys

[@samtatge8299]

New Catholic here. I needed this. I decided not to be involved in the civil war. I’m just too ignorant, too new. I must aim at learning from the CCC, the lives of the saints and guided (re) learning of the scriptures.

[@valwhelan3533]

Fellow convert too. It is good to stick to basics like you are doing, and ask Our Lady for discernment re who you listen to on KZbin. Too many tribes/dissenters out there.....

[@fiat19981]

yes I feel this way too!!

[@tacticalinsanity7375]

Cradle Catholic here, you have a great approach! Stay your course...ignore all of this meaningless drama spurred by the pride, envy and avarice of men.

[@georgefuentes4112]

I’m a revert and have essentially done the same. I don’t really see the drama going on as much and have naturally been turned off by some fundamentalist (extreme or not. Gordon talks too much trash and some others just get too distracted by “their style”.

[@nocturne2029]

I'm also a new convert. I think it's honestly best to just avoid catholic discourse on social media, 99% of it is gonna be needless and confusing. Go to a liturgy you like and receive the sacraments often, that's pretty much it

[@divineya11]

Trent chose violence today

[@simplydanny]

Everyone gets the smoke today

[@powerlessburger]

He and Joe have been on a roll today

[@MagnusVonBlack]

I'm here for it.😂

[@joaogabrieltrindadedias4308]

Kkkkkk

[@Nomorehero07]

I'm cool with it.

[@christafarion9]

Wow what a breath of fresh air. Don't normally see this level of honesty from today's youtube Catholics. Everytime I bring up Jesus and the Pharisees, Catholics switch off their brains, or try to change topics. Good job Trent!

[@bikesrcool_1958]

I adore Catholics for their striving of being moral, and what’s right and wrong. But I also notice people need to be held to a less Pharisee like manner. They need love, not liberalism but also not rigidly.

[@christafarion9]

@bikesrcool_1958 I also love my Catholic and Orthodox brothers and sisters. Christians should strive to observe our similarities firstmost, and work out the differences charitably. Pretend that everyone is Jesus in disguise, and you'll be alright!

[@cazwalt9013]

The saddest thing is seeing a catholic act like a puritanical Protestant

[@sliglusamelius8578]

Really? I will take a puritan over a shariah jihadist any day of the year. I will take a puritan over a radical communist any day of the year.

[@Clif87]

There has always been a Pharisaical movement in a Christian guise that creeps into the Church. Puritanical Protestants have existed and still do exist, (Though some true 'Puritan' leaders were extremely intelligent, loving and Christlike men and women, see John Owen for example) but every denomination has had its Pharisees. The oversimplicity of your statement is silly. Why would you refuse to acknowledge the sins and failures of your own institution and pretend that sin is only for those 'other' people. After all, oppressive puritanism is sinful. Protestants are not all evil, uneducated fools as many Catholic people seem to imply by their comments. Even when commenting below Catholic leaders who genuinely treat these subjects with much greater civility, grace and wisdom (as I think Trent Horn often does), there are always still folks that act like 'Yeah destroy those stupid protestants!!'

[@kevinphillips150]

What is to claim the Catholic actually is a Catholic? Have not Popes and Cardinals been declared heretical?

[@szoku8357]

Yeah... or a modern version of Pharisee.

[@WillNelson73]

@@cazwalt9013 you mean as far as trying to impose it on others?

[@WillNelson73]

There’s a big difference between PERSONALLY denying oneself or not participating in certain activities and saying that EVERYONE must do as I do. Some Christians refrain from alcohol and never dance (much less dance with a woman) but do not say that everyone must do that

[@jomidiam]

I think those who say everyone must refrain from something sometimes have a problem with that thing. Some can't drink without overindulging, so they say everyone must refrain from drinking. Others have problems with lustful thoughts when they dance with someone, so they say no one should dance. Individuals may need to make particular rules for themselves to avoid the near occasion of sin, but they should realize that not everyone is susceptible to the same temptations to the same degree.

[@CCootauco]

Not even doing a goofy dance?

[@calledtorome]

Yes. Rad Trads want everyone to follow their version of correct morality, yet they can’t even agree among themselves what that is. But if the Church has not defined something as gravely sinful, we are all individually left to use our best judgement, not the judgement of someone with a mic and a camera.

[@johnmccrossan9376]

Exactly. I find in myself a weakness around coffee for example if I didn't have strict rules I would become completely dependent on it. That doesn't mean however I think everyone should limit themselves to 2 cups a day and nothing on Friday or during lent, if that's helpful sure but I came up with it to assist with my weakness and I don't know yours

[@manub.3847]

@@jomidiam Maybe these people can't dance at all and haven't learned how. But they also forget that when teaching standard ballroom dancing, manners and etiquette are often taught as well.

[@stooch66]

I disagree vehemently: Ultimate Frisbee is sinful. Otherwise, you are dead on. Thanks, Trent. Follow the Living Magisterium. There is the Church.

[@NGAOPC]

My liege! - what are the teachings on the pickle ball?

[@Spartacus-hc9xt]

My wife plays in an ultimate frisbee league. So not only is she leaving the house (very sinful) but she is double down with the sin of ultimate as well lol

[@NGAOPC]

@@Spartacus-hc9xt I will pray for you all…

[@Spartacus-hc9xt]

@@NGAOPC thank you, although with such sinful behavior it my household it may be to late

[@JoshDosh]

I just wish you could run with the Frisbee

[@32678knowle]

Dear Trent, thank you from a Catholic Priest in England for all you do to promote authentic Catholic teaching. Fr David.

[@simplydanny]

Trent is swinging at everyone today. I agree that we should try to be faithful to church teaching, too many Catholics today follow the authority of opinions.

[@SaltShack]

Unfortunately following opinion is the entire epistemic foundation of Roman Catholicism that wrestled the authority away from the Holy Spirit and gave it to an infallible primate in the Pope. No different than the individual authority Protestant Reformers took from the Pope and gave to themselves. Most unfortunately this has culminated in American Evangelicalism giving the authority to any individual with a Bible and an Opinion who lacks the fear of God to use it.

[@SurferNYC]

@@simplydanny yeah, swinging at faithful Catholics to protect those who embrace modernity over Christ is a real “win”. Not embracing sin = being a Pharisee.

[@simplydanny]

@@SurferNYC oh boy, you guys have a one track mind, didn’t even look at the video huh? You know what’s not a win? This comment of yours lol

[@SurferNYC]

@@simplydanny Yes, quoting Saints is being a Pharisee, Trent is so right. Also embracing doctrine from the church is bad we should bow to modernism.

[@simplydanny]

@@SurferNYC you can quote saints not not against church teaching, you do know how this works right? A lot trads reject church teaching and call it modernism which is modernism

[@nickl120]

As someone who used to struggle with scrupulosity and is fairly close to some "Catholic fundamentalists," I appreciate this video. The Church's extreme left and right may not be equally common or powerful, but they are equally wrong, so it's important to correct them both.

[@Catholicity-uw2yb]

Scrupulosity can certainly be emboldened by bad theology which emphasizes a wrathful God. Such a theology became very prevalent in the Church, starting in the 17th century, and continuing for over 200 years. It is called Jansenism, named for the French bishop, Cornelius Jansenius, who originated and promulgated it in the Church. Like 16th century Protestant Calvinism, 17th century Jansenism preached a religion of fear and anguish. Priests and bishops with the Jansenist mentality were obsessed with “sins of the flesh.” They preached a distorted Christianity that presented God as severe, cold, and distant. Jesus was presented only as a harsh and condemning judge, not as a merciful Savior and Good Shepherd. The truth of God’s love proclaimed by Jesus in his teaching and deeds and his ultimate sacrifice for all people was overshadowed by this heresy. And this heresy received a great deal of acceptance throughout the Church for more than 200 years in spite of the efforts of several popes who condemned it as false teaching. The Jansenists taught that all infants dying without baptism were condemned to hell. Pope Pius VI, however, condemned that teaching in 1794. But the most far-reaching part of the Jansenist heresy was its teaching on the Eucharist. Jansenism held that it was only the purest of souls, free of all taint of sin, that could approach Communion without the fear of committing a sacrilege. Jansenistic piety was excessively rigid and moralistic. It held that the possibility of committing a mortal sin was an ever present and constant danger. It deeply affected spirituality in the Church, and traces of it can sometimes be seen to this day. These beliefs gave rise to excessive introspection that was the breeding ground of scrupulosity. Jansenism tainted the pulpit and Catholic teaching, which, in turn, infected the faithful. Instances of this kind of preaching and teaching can still be found today.

[@Fistbeardthepirate]

@@Catholicity-uw2yb sounds like propaganda, are you a Jesuit?

[@revelation20232]

​@@Catholicity-uw2yb God also isn't a pushover. "It's a terrible thing to fall into the hands of the Living God" (Hebrews 10:31)

[@Lucylou7070]

@@Catholicity-uw2yb Thank you for your honesty about a prevalent form of Catholicism that led to scrupulosity and the awful jokes about Catholic guilt that I can still recall vividly.

[@Theosis_and_prayer]

Trent made some good points in this video. For example, how he highlights the double-standard of quoting the Roman Catechism with one practice but not following to the letter everything else it says. That's a great point and fair critique. However, he crossed a line by calling good people fundamentalist, radicalist and placing heavy burdens on people. Now, is not dancing with someone not your wife really a heavy burden? Is that where we are in the Church? Are we really that weak?

[@Deuterocomical]

“You end up with an online magisterium” *shows Peter Dimond* 😂

[@a.ihistory5879]

But he won't debate him no matter how many times Dimond said he was willing to

[@Deuterocomical]

@@a.ihistory5879 Dimond also won’t debate me

[@Idishrkdmd]

I love you man your videos helped me with dealing with the diamond brothers in greater detail without getting indoctrinated into the most holy family monastery also your funny as well.

[@Deuterocomical]

@@Idishrkdmd Wow, never thought my videos would have that effect, but praise God!

[@monarchblue4280]

​@@Deuterocomical I knew very little about the Dimond brothers but I did know some of there fans who inundated me with content barrages of "Dimond is the best, he has the greatest arguments ever and beat every pro-vat 2 proponent ever" and felt uneasy that such a guy could exist (albeit skeptical). Then I saw your video and realized just how odd the dimond brother arguments are. Your humour definitely helped me understand Dimondesque phariseism. You truly have a great impact, brother.

[@elcidcampeador9629]

Saint Alphonsus said dancing is moral, but only if done in a right and modest manner

[@christopherfleming7505]

Exactly, it all depends on the type of dancing. The typical lewd grinding and booty wagging you see nowadays in any music video is the height of indecency. If 100 years ago bishops and saints like the Curate of Ars were warning against dancing THE WALTZ... what would they think of the degenerate, animalistic contortions we call dancing today?

[@robertortiz-wilson1588]

​@@christopherfleming7505Very true.

[@gloriaa.2442]

Very true.

[@bradicas5359]

All the Catholic edge lords on twitter aren’t going to like this. They are going to war with memes that is.

[@custardoydamian]

@@bradicas5359 Most of them are under the influence of a demonic entity. I know; I have a gut feeling for such things. I once informed my local bishop about him; showed him a Twitter thread made by some 'trad-caths.' He confirmed that there was demonic energy emanating from them. We are planning on practicing an exorcism on their Twitter accounts.

[@deblobvis264]

I can see the wojacks coming

[@KristiLEvans1]

“Catholic edge lord” was not in my lexicon until just now. I’m stealing this.

[@KristiLEvans1]

@@deblobvis264 I’m sorry, what’s a wojack?

[@PB_324]

I'm glad he called out the Gordon's.

[@MDCMR]

Thanks be to God. And thank you to Trent for helping me through my reversion to Catholicism

[@Renkinjutsushi]

Welcome home!

[@Onlyafool172]

Thank him everyday because you could have been sent to hell as an ex professing Catholic, I mean some people say so, and my stance in it is uncertain, but he might as well made God save you

[@MDCMR]

@@Onlyafool172 I plan to. And to guide my son, and my second son due in December. I wish I had had better teachers at a younger age but I had more questions than answers and then thought I was cleverer than I was. Then came in the smug new atheists a few years later... But essentially I take ownership. I was wrong. “I was blind.” Turns out every answer I had had been answered before. Also turns out this is quite a common story. When I told my dad (cradle catholic / never studied scripture / lost whatever faith he had) about my experiences we had a few of the best conversations we’ve ever had and he has also started to read the Bible (maybe the first time) and is taking his mother, my Nana to Church. It’s a journey but I’m all in.

[@Onlyafool172]

@@MDCMR those are past waters, you are here now, thats all that it matters, we are togheter in this, I will keep you in my prayers, so you might grow in faith and find peace in it

[@adeodata6364]

This is such an important issue to address! I'm so tired of Catholic "influencers" making up rules, judging everyone, especially in authority, and thinking they are entitled to put burdens on people, as they wish and without consequences. I sometimes think it's a spiritual illness. Thank you Trent for speaking out!

[@Catholicity-uw2yb]

They're like the Pharsiees. When Jesus healed on the Sabbath they screamed "You're breaking the Sabbath rest!" Instead of rejoicing that a brother had been delivered from an infirmity, they're only concern was that Jesus had broken one of their burdensome rules. Pure love had come into their midst and they hated him.

[@whoputyouontheplanet3345]

Amen to that! I've been thinking about this topic for a long time, and thought it was just me. This stuff nearly drove me away from the Church, and I'm sure many others.

[@revelation20232]

Here's the question: is it a safer bet to follow a strict interpretation of the rules or adherence to past stricter rules than it is to follow more relaxed rules? Your soul is on the line so choose wisely.

[@whoputyouontheplanet3345]

@@revelation20232 It's safer to abandon the overly strict, since it's not even taught within the church; and causes scrupulosity which drives people away. Besides, a great deal of all this is LARPING and Cosplaying, especially with the "trad wives". These people literally don't exist outside of a tiktok clip, and the ones that do are rare.

[@Theosis_and_prayer]

Shame! What a weak, sad and impoverished state the Church must be in when famous Catholic Apologists think having the view that dancing to someone other than your wife is too much of a 'heavy burden', 'pharisaical' and makes you a 'fundamentalist' and radicalist. Previous generations fought wars and suffered under religious persecution. But we can't even carry a small cross. What pity.

[@jackalopeb9598]

I almost stopped being Catholic because of the ultra traditional (fundamentalist) Catholics being so uptight. Having OCD, this mentality of trying to be “holy” made my life a living hell. I’m ever so thankful for the Holy Spirit and the charismatic movement. They kept me from going to a different denomination.

[@CrestviewCutters]

I’m not a rad trad, but some dignity in the house of God and respect for the Eucharist would be very nice in many modernist Churches.

[@Justin-yn5py]

Yea Trent is a modernist and you know he would start crying just as much as the trads if the Pope took away his eastern rite Divine liturgy and he was forced to attend a Novus Ordo every week.

[@katydidd6321]

Its sad that you have to preface a statement about respect for the body, blood, soul and divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ with, "I'm not a rad trad," but here we are.

[@davidandbernadettegockowsk9077]

Whoa… devotion and respect for the Eucharist and the liturgical tradition of the Church? You sound like a rigid Pharisee

[@NathanSkifton]

@@Justin-yn5pyThis is wildly callous and false. Trent is not a modernist, and rashly tossing around fictitious situations of liturgical change and their even more fictitious conclusions is something Catholics should avoid.

[@valwhelan3533]

Catholic convert here with only exposure to NO. We have reverent NO in an older (not modern) church, with kneelers, etc. I find the trope that all NO churches have no dignity/respect is somewhat ignorant, although it seems to be widespread on social media.

[@ksanto9797]

St. Elizabeth Ann Seton was a wife, mother, teacher, religious and Saint. She taught at the school she founded while mothering her children at the request of two bishops.

[@dreamweaver3406]

Yes, as a grandmother I see the wisdom in staying home with your children when they are young and to make your family your priority but working outside the home is a decision to be made by the husband and wife with the family's best interest.

[@ksanto9797]

That is the ideal, for sure.​@@dreamweaver3406

[@reggiejenkins6458]

@@dreamweaver3406funny, that’s what atheists say too.

[@PenganutAgamaDamaiKolohBakwan]

​@@reggiejenkins6458 Yes, my sister is example. Her family have enough to live everyday life when hers have single income household, but she decided to work. Choosed a nanny for a hyperactive kid but when i told her just stay to become housewife because my niece need more attention & love from mother but she and her husband double it down. Now due to stress workload & uncertain economy, rarely but noticeable (like once or twice in a month but not every month) one of them took anger out on their kids and now my niece have irreversible damage. In current day of civilizations maybe it's not a wise decision.

[@reggiejenkins6458]

@@PenganutAgamaDamaiKolohBakwan money has been the American god for several decades now.

[@eskvar]

The ones that frustrate me the most are the ones that seem to think there is some sort of contest for most extreme Catholic lifestyle. The "Oh, you decided to give up meat for the whole of Lent, not just Fridays. Well I'm doing a great fast and not eating any meat, dairy, eggs, oil and on Fridays I'm not eating anything. " type of thing. If it works for you and you feel it brings you closer to God, great, but that doesn't mean we won't both end up in heaven just because I don't do the same.

[@PrzybyszzMatplanety]

This is just pure phariseism...

[@davidandbernadettegockowsk9077]

Yeah! It’s not like Saint Paul commends us to run so as to win, or to compete for a crown that is imperishable! Seriously, relax trads.

[@ClingToAntiquity]

One has to be careful with "if you feel it brings you closer to God" way of thinking. A lot of Catholics have left the Church because they didn't feel it was working for them. The devil uses our feelings to lead us to perdition. We need to be on our guard.

[@estebane8435]

Amen !!!!!

[@heteroGMRVet]

I also like to argue with straw men

[@elcidcampeador9629]

Bishops are silent on many moral issues. That is not a defense

[@Rosjier]

Out of curiosity can you please name 3 intrinsically evil acts which almost no Bishop has condemned, isn't condemned in the Catechism, and the church has no official teaching on.

[@carsonianthegreat4672]

⁠@@Rosjierthree intrinsically evil acts that bishops are silent on today: Charging intrinsic interest on loans, the sin of speculation, and the sin of curiosity.

[@elcidcampeador9629]

@@Rosjier Thank you for setting up that strawman just like Trent does throughout the video. That is not what I said. I said many, not all, bishops are silent on many moral issues. I have been told by priests in my own archdiocese that they are not allowed to preach on certain moral subjects, or if they do, they must be extremely vague and cautious about it because of the threat of the Bishop disciplining them. There are plenty of acts condemned by the Church in the catechism and its official teaching that Bishops ignore today. How about praying with non Catholics? That is a mortal sin, and yet we have even the Pope doing it. You have an entire country's worth of Bishops in Germany very close to publicly declaring sodomy as morally acceptable. The bishops here in America not only endorse but support the dissolution of our borders with illegal immigration so they can replace the dwindling number of parishioners in their churches despite Saint Thomas Aquinas saying that a nation has a right to secure its borders. The list could go on and on and on. The Church is not a democracy. A group, even the majority, of Bishops not teaching on a subject does not de facto give that subject moral force. If it did, we would all be Arian today because 95% of the bishops either accepted or turned a blind eye to it.

[@rcwarrior868]

Not really?

[@CelticFreestyle]

How can you possibly believe it is a mortal sin to pray with non Catholics?

[@katievanhavel4766]

Thank you!!! Let's be "glad trads" and remain in our beloved Barqe of Peter!

[@thebonegarden]

I came to the Catholic Church from ultra liberal, feminist, neo paganism. I was starving for Truth and boundaries. It has been imperative to my spiritual development to be given clear lines to stay inside of. It’s not called the narrow gate for nothing. Without the more clear historical, moral theology of the non modernist Church it’s hard to say if I would still be Catholic. Being Christian isn’t easy, getting to heaven isn’t easy. I’d rather err on the side of being too morally “ridged” than too permissive, personally.

[@sheri763]

Well said! ❤

[@Renkinjutsushi]

That's fine for you, as long as you don't venture into the realm of scrupulosity. Trent isn't saying that embracing extra rigour in personal devotion is bad. The issue is when Catholic fundamentalists try to impose those rigours as necessary on all the faithful.

[@thebonegarden]

@@Renkinjutsushi and how would they truly impose such a thing? Simply stating that something is good practice isn’t an imposition.

[@shay-car]

The narrow gate refers to Christ. You can’t earn your way to heaven - so don’t put too heavy a burden on yourself, as Christ warned.

[@PuzzlesC4M]

It is a spectrum, and we are all at different points on our journey. I have erred on both sides honestly. I know I appear super rigid to my non-believing, feminist friends. I do certain traditional practices out of personal preference and devotion. We just have to make sure we don't force those on others or judge others who don't do them. What we can do is influence others for good by living morally upright and shining our light to those around us.

[@ApostolicZoomer]

On the internet at least, the Catholic fundamentalists are such angry, uncharitable people. They lash out against any criticism and are extremely inconsistent. The crazy thing is that the very traditional Catholics I’ve met in person are quite good people. Speaks to the issues with social media.

[@roseandsword.]

For larpers, ,,trad" is just an aesthetic they can use to feel like they're cool and superior to other people.

[@mathgod]

So, Trent lately. I hear you.

[@kevinphillips150]

Again, what are the fundamentals and who set them?

[@calledtorome]

Yes, definitely symptoms of people who spend too much time online. I had a period like that as well where I checked Reddit every 2 seconds and it just made me angry and d uncharitable towards others. More time in prayer, that is my goal.

[@sakamotosan1887]

Social media brings out the worst habits in us all. The same problem exists for the Orthodox communities. We need to remember to cultivate humility in ourselves and not see the sins of our brothers. The prayer of St. Ephraim is a good one, I pray that every night.

[@Rusty_39]

I think Gabi's video was taken out of context. No offense but I don't think yall are aware of what modern dances at public schools are like.

[@Rusty_39]

I would like to preface this by saying I agree with the premise of this video.

[@QBlessed93]

No offense but you’re wrong. I went to a public school and know very well. Yes you should discern wisely what to expose yourself to, that doesn’t mean paint everything with a broad brush.

[@dylanrunner2001]

Not only modern dances, but even those in St. John Vianney's day

[@scootahscoot9389]

Gabe might be the Novus UhOh star that gets out and joins SSPX since his conversion was positively rosary stressed

[@DashiellAnthony]

@@scootahscoot9389I feel like I just read the Catholic version of Gen. Alpha slang

[@P-el4zd]

I was in the military I would never dare call an officer or NCO by his first name no matter my personal opinions of the man. Address the Pope properly. He is addressed as Pope Francis not Jorge Mario Bergoglio.

[@bruhbruh7660]

That’s not what is happening, church officials are not able to maintain office if they obstinately adhere to heretic beliefs they cannot hold that office, and are serving a counterfeit church

[@kevinphillips150]

While I was in the military as well, respect the rank, not the person. If the person hasn't earned it, why are they acting in the position of the place they are in?

[@myfakinusername]

@@kevinphillips150 Well that's what the guy said ''respect the rank, not the person''. No matter your feelings about pope Francis you respect his divine authority no matter the feelings...And you do it for Christ's sake, out of obedience

[@sakamotosan1887]

@@myfakinusername I'm Eastern Orthodox and even I would still at least call him by his title. He still has the primacy of honor among the bishops, even if I don't think he has supremacy.

[@myfakinusername]

@@sakamotosan1887 Respect your answer

[@renlamomtsopoe]

I'm a Protestant but seriously calling the Pope by his name 🤦

[@cazwalt9013]

Lol 😂

[@TheXone7]

God bless you, our brother in Christ 🙏🏻🕊️

[@crazyassailant]

Just as a warning, it's not always done out of disrespect. It's perfectly normal to refer to, say, Ratzinger or Bergoglio, when referring to something they wrote, said, or did prior to ascending to the papacy. Most people you see online aren't using it that way, but still, just as a heads up.

[@TheXone7]

@@crazyassailant Most of these people use it to put him down. The most known example is Taylor Marshall. But he is not fundamentalist, he is also schismatic unfortunately.

[@crazyassailant]

@TheXone7 Yes many people use it as a way of expressing their belief that Pope Francis is not a valid pope, or maybe just to insult him. I was merely pointing out that the simple use of Bergoglio is not in and of itself always and everywhere wrong.

[@matthewmorris9532]

Great video. I think this needs one bit of nuance: whilst it's not okay to try bind someone to something that the Church does not officially teach, it seems totally okay to *recommend* something to someone that the Church does not officially teach. This is precisely what moral theologians a lot of the time and it's a natural and important part of the life of the Church. Just because the Church doesn't decry something as immoral, that does not mean that it isn't, and that the Church will never in the future decry it as immoral. As such, it seems that as long as the teaching is being given as personal advice that does not contradict Church teaching, and not as something binding, then it's fine and even praiseworthy.

[@Renkinjutsushi]

I agree, but pretty much all the examples Trent Called out today aren't making recommendations. They present their views as dogmatically binding, and say that anyone who doesn't adhere to them is engaging in sin.

[@ghostapostle7225]

@@Renkinjutsushi Seems like people criticizing Trent are missing this point.

[@davidandbernadettegockowsk9077]

Exactly what a rigid Pharisee would say!

[@lalagordo]

Good comment

[@matthewmorris9532]

@@Renkinjutsushi true, pretty much all the examples shown needed the preface "this isn't official Church teaching, but..."

[@maksmachula]

One of the best Trent Horn videos I've seen

[@actsapologist1991]

I much prefer the term "Rigorist" than "Fundamentalist". A "Fundamentalist" should be someone who believes in the fundamentals. We all should do that. A "Rigorist" is someone who promotes unnecessary rigor in practice.

[@michaellemmen]

^

[@dr.tafazzi]

Fundamentalist never meant someone that believes in the fundamentals, that's misapplying etymology. Rigorist makes it sound like thsy're just too uptight, while the issue is their uncatholic contempt for the living magisterial authority

[@bobjenkins3rd]

I was about to comment the same thing. Fundamentalism has a particular meaning that’s not this.

[@actsapologist1991]

@@dr.tafazzi : Not to get smart with you, sir.... but the meaning I proposed is the original meaning of the word. "Fundamentalism" was a movement which began in the late 19th and early 20th century within Protestantism as a pushback against rising modernism. The originators of the movement saw liberal modernism as denying tenets which were "fundamental" to the Christian faith, such as the resurrection of Christ and the inspiration of the Bible. This led to a publication of essays known as "The Fundamentals: A Testimony to the Truth". These essays defended five "fundamentals" as being necessary for Christianity. Those are: The virgin birth, the inspiration of scripture, that Christ atoned for sin, Christ died and rose, and Christ performed miracles. The original "Fundamentalists" were those who pushed back against modernists and promoted these elements as the bare minimums necessary of all Christians. The term LATER came to mean something like what Trent uses it to mean. But its original meaning was what I said: Someone who holds to the fundamentals. I hope this has been educational. For more, check out the Wikipedia page on "Christian Fundamentalism".

[@actsapologist1991]

@@bobjenkins3rd : See my comment above to Mr. Tafazz. In short: "Fundamentalism" was originally a late 19th / early 20th century movement in the Protestant world which pushed back against liberal modernism. This modernist movement denied elements of the Christian faith which many thinkers believed to be "fundamental." This led to a publication of essays called "The Fundamentals: A Testimony to the Truth". These essays defended five doctrines which the authors believed as necessary to have the Christian religion: The virgin birth, Christ's atoning work, Christ's resurrection, the inspiration of Scripture, and Christ's miracles. The people who promoted holding onto these "fundamentals" in the face of creeping modernism were the original "fundamentalists". That's what the term originally meant: Those who believe the necessary fundamentals of the Christian faith in respond to denials of them. I hope this has been helpful. For more, see the Wikipedia page on Christian Fundamentalism.

[@timrichardson4018]

As a new Catholic, I've slowly learned that the Church defines things, condemns certain acts, admits other acts all for our help and leading us to salvation. It's not to make things difficult. Individuals may find some teachings and requirements difficult, but the Church has actually gone out of its way to help people grow in virtue without being unduly burdensome in what it pronounces as required. In scripture, Christ set a very high moral bar, but reached out in mercy and grace to help us reach it. You mentioned that we can make our needs known to our pastors. This is an important point. The changing of disciplines in the Church can be informed by the hierarchy dialoguing with the laity. It's possible something may need to change that God uses lay people to bring to the attention of leadership. But...the authority of Christ rests with the Bishops and Holy Father. If they disagree with us and judge that things should remain or change in some other way we disagree with, we submit to their authority and accept their judgment. Joe Heschmeyer recently said that obedience is only meaningful if you have to do it when you disagree.

[@InExcelsisDeo24]

Exactly. It's the narrow door, but the most rewarding.

[@rushthezeppelin]

Maybe I haven't seen it but I don't think anyone had said NFP is inherently sinful. Just that people are loosey goosey with what constitutes grave cause to use it. There are legitimate grave causes to use NFP but losing out on having some fun money is not one of them.

[@AnaMT1985]

I was raised in a trad community and it was definitely considered. Modern Catholic birth control. So should be avoided in order to avoid living in sin.

[@Heinrich.Denzinger]

A lot of rad trads / sedevacantists / sspx people think it is. One example is John Farrell who's entire youtube is about nfp and annulments

[@Heinrich.Denzinger]

@@AnaMT1985 Yeah but it's not contraceptive so

[@AnaMT1985]

@@Heinrich.Denzinger I know, my point is in addressing what the op said about nobody thinking it is a sin…. the people in these trad communities definitely push that it is a sin

[@AndrewTheMandrew531]

I have been told in the past that it is sinful. I started to believe it myself.

[@CalebTheCatholicDoctor]

This is a much-needed critique. Thank you for speaking on it - I’ve seen family members and friends be hurt by this, and it’s scraped me up a bit, too.

[@user-hj8vd2od9h]

The idea that "If the bishops have not condemned it, then it is sinless" is a terrible principle.

[@jeannebouwman1970]

Rather: who are you to condemn something permitted by the church?

[@pcola4594]

@@jeannebouwman1970 Well we all are, we shall know them by their fruit…. We have clearly identified teachings in scripture, even if the modern church has gotten squishy on many topics

[@misterkittyandfriends1441]

It is, but really for things where no teaching exists we must look to tradition and how the church has treated similar ideas, and principles. However if the bishops actively support the thing although it has no official teaching then that seems pretty safe. Ultimate Frisbee is a lot like other non-violent sports. Online pornography is identical to paper pornography. Etc.

[@thejollyviking8083]

@@misterkittyandfriends1441 But the point of Jacob's argument is that the Church has a long standing, consistent moral condemnation of speculation throughout its history which has been expressed in both the Catechism and in the writings of Popes like St. John Paul II, participation in the Stock Market is necessarily a form of speculation unless you're literally just doing it to get dividends and not to sell the stocks for more money later, and Trent's response that "speculation" only refers to illegal forms of stock exchange like "pump and dumb" schemes, when that is simply not what the word refers to (specifically)

[@vinciblegaming6817]

@@pcola4594no. That’s a violation of Ephesians 5. Where there is no authority between two people, there is mutual submission. You do not say what someone else is bound to, but you are personally free to bind yourself AND share with others why you do so, but you can’t hold them to that. The exceptions to this are clearly laid out in scripture - husbands to wives, parents to children: they have authority over the other to bind. Only scripture and the authority of the church can bind someone to what is considered sinful.

[@MathAdam]

Including Gabi like that was kinda shocking.

[@richardwatterstan]

Right, I saw that Gabi video and intuited that he was correct. I understand that he's in error now! Catholic Answers has rebuked him! Bad Gabi! Bad!! lol. (Edit: Sarcasm)

[@AndrewDolder]

Gabi crossed the line with a Pharisaical video and rightly was called out here.

[@MystoRobot]

@@richardwatterstan Careful though, because Catholic Answers isn't infallible either. They do not seem to openly acknowledge the way modernism affects the Church. As a result, CA's apologists -- while being perfectly good at helping newcomers and converts to live good Catholic lives -- are not equipped to deal with the cunning tactics of the enemies of the Church.

[@jmj.thomas]

​@@AndrewDolder @richardwatterstan @MathAdam Honest question: What "current church teaching" overrides the 2nd and 3rd Plenary Councils of Baltimore, which condemned "immodest dances" and forbids priests from preparing "banquets with dances (balls) to promote pious works"?. Those councils were held in ~1866, but the Pope declared the teaching on dancing to be upheld and continuously condemned in the 1917 decree on "Certain Dances in the United States of North America...". (Note: "Immodest" in 1866 wouldn't have meant something obviously debaucherous, since priests wouldn't even need to be forbidden from preparing dances that were obviously debaucherous . Rather, "immodest" for the time would likely be 2 unmarried people dancing, holding, swinging together, etc) Gabi seems to have Church statements on his side, but I'm not aware of anything newer that would override Gabi's "old" sources. Do these teachings/statements somehow expire? If I'm holding to something no longer binding, I'd love to know.

[@okimjake]

​@@jmj.thomasthanks for being Catholic homie

[@joelancon7231]

Trent in one day has rebuked Gabi after hours, Tim Gordon, Rad Trads and Liberal Catholics abroad. I've never seen Trent with a cigar or anything of the sort, but today Trent chose smoke

[@DouglasTheDon]

This caused more harm than good imo

[@krdiaz8026]

@@DouglasTheDon Politely pointing out why some people are wrong is always good.

[@thehitomiboy7379]

​@krdiaz8026 Yeah but a good number of them are right. Trent is wrong.

[@LivingCatholicLife]

@@krdiaz8026 Gabi is right. If dancing is not bad then Trent should have gone after St John Vianney, St Louis De Monfort, and St Frances De Sales. Gabi was simply echoing the teachings of great saints. Nothing wrong with that.

[@gunzofthenavarrone8293]

Because he got smoked by Tim Gordon in their debate on Patriarchal Family structure.

[@jonathanstensberg]

There are multiple badly stated arguments in this one, Trent. Most importantly: 1. “If X were sinful, then the Church would explicitly say so.” This literally not possible, and the Church has never attempted to make a definitive list of all proscribed acts. 2. “If the bishops actively do X, then it cannot be sinful.” The bishops are just as capable of sinful actions, and their teaching office is not implicated by their actions, even the actions of many or all. If stated differently, there are decent arguments to be made along these lines. However, the way these were stated here are plainly wrong.

[@yalechuk6714]

The point Trent is making is simple on what grounds are those stating things as sinful doing so ? Secondly I have to state the obvious 'American' Trad Bros are not doing the church any favours. They should realise that the church is universal and not just the US. They should save the rest of us of their culture war and stop behaving like they possess any magisterial authority over anyone

[@Thunderjerky]

@@yalechuk6714 "what grounds are those stating things as sinful doing so" They make arguments like the Fathers, Scholastics, and so on. They reason from first principles and go from their. Trent, like many Catholics (trads + progressives + conservatives + lukewarm), has more or less adopted arguments from authority as the sole criteria of truth. People who hate dancing are wrong because it's dumb but you actually need to present that argument

[@yalechuk6714]

@@Thunderjerky Sorry but they are guilty of appealing to authority that only agrees with them which is no different than what protestant do . The difference between Catholicism and Protestantism is a living authority. So you can't afford to say oh you appealing to the fathers particularly when the living church magisterium has issued more clarification on a matter. For example the issue if veiling . You can't go about quoting saints on veiling and condeming others of not veiling when the Living Magisterium is that it not sin. These group of fellas are on X quoting saints on interracial marriage and presenting it as authority over a matter that the church universally permits and condemning interracial marriages

[@yalechuk6714]

@@Thunderjerky What are you on about ? These guys are simply appealing to authority that agrees with them while disregarding the living authority of the church. This same group are on X quoting saints on interracial marriage and using them as weapon against a matter the church universally permits. American Trad Bros shouldn't use the church as a tool to fight culture wars .

[@yalechuk6714]

@@Thunderjerky What are you on about ? These guys are simply appealing to authority that agrees with them while disregarding the living authority of the church. This same group are on X quoting saints on interracial marriage and using them as weapon against a matter the church universally permits. Americans shouldn't use the church as a tool to fight culture wars .

[@kinghoodofmousekind2906]

As an Italian, until they cannot say Bergoglio correctly I will pull a "you said it wrong, you are wrong" troll card on them. Jokes aside, it's important to call out both forms of extremism.

[@sliglusamelius8578]

He calls out a very tiny slice of conservative Catholics and by extension smears those of us who dislike Bergoglio very much. Why the papolatry?

[@BensWorkshop]

@@sliglusamelius8578 The Pope is the Pope.

[@FiMvisibl3]

Just because you dislike him doesn't mean you get to disrespect him. His proper way of address, if you're a Catholic, is Pope Francis or His Holiness.

[@krzysztofadamczyk1040]

Ah yes, Burr-go-gleoh. Makes me cringe every single time

[@kinghoodofmousekind2906]

@@davidandbernadettegockowsk9077 with the tile of Pope in front. How often I heard Pope Francis's last name said with a sort of hatred or snark in it made me sad. I wish Pope Bergoglio would call out the liberal elements in the Church more, but he's still the Pope.

[@Rorschached]

As a Traditional Catholic, I applaud Trent's efforts to call out shenanigans on both ends of the spectrum in the Church. I think it's important to recommend pious devotions and/or going above and beyond what the Church requires (IE, recommending frequent Confession, perhaps monthly, in addition to the Church's annual requirement), but it should always be made clear as to what the Church teaches/requires vs what we're recommending. The same when we're advocating for things we think the Church should change from a discipline perspective (IE, advocating for the repeal of the indult for receiving Communion in the hand).

[@TrixRN]

Amen! Well, except for repealing the indult. I have a problem with my teeth that precludes receiving on the tongue. However I pray the Liturgy of the Hours & recommend it to the catechumen I sponsor in RCIA. It can really jumpstart your Catholic prayer life & is easier for converting Protestants than the rosary. Eventually I recommend the rosary later in the program & depending on where they are in their journey. I know when I converted it took years before I understood better & could pray the rosary. I converted with a very basic view of the doctrines on the Blessed Virgin Mary. As time went on I developed a fuller & deeper understanding of Mary as mother & Queen.

[@TamCEE-k4c]

​@TrixRN Thank you for your post! It's amazing that you converted, what a blessing. I'm sure you're a great support for your catechuman too. God bless you.

[@fr.Angel21]

this video doesn't aim Traditional Catholics

[@Whispn]

I can’t tell you how much I appreciate this video. As a new Catholic, these “Catholic Fundamentalists” make religion incredibly difficult for everyone else, especially converts. I’ve been told everything that you said they say about women. I’ve even been told that, because I go to NO instead of the TLM, that my obligations are invalid. You hit the nail on the head with this one. This video of yours is very needed.

[@dreamweaver3406]

there are extremes in every faith! Follow the bishops and you won't go wrong.

[@garyr.8116]

@Whispn - welcome Home, from a Lifelong deeply faithful Catholic and lover of Jesus, the Holy Family, and the Saints brothers & sisters in every age around the world! While *some* NO masses may be too lax/abusive, it is equally 'abusive' and just NUTS for individuals to demand others should go to TLM only, as you've sadly experienced. I've seen many masses around the world - NO/TLM/Maronite/E.Orthodox - and if you've not focused on the Eucharist and Love of those around you then the issue is NOT the rite of the mass ....... ;)

[@MystoRobot]

I've been to the N-O nearly all my life before switching to an FSSP parish near me. Honestly, if you... 1. Go to confession in case of mortal sins before receiving the Eucharist 2. Receive the Eucharist kneeling and on the tongue (from the priest only, if possible) 3. Stay silent while inside the Church 4. Do not wear leggings or anything too revealing (modesty & caring for other people's purity) ..you'll be fine. Easy isn't it? :) As time passes, you'll learn more than piety will naturally increase.

[@UncleKlausSchwab]

As a cradle Catholic I would urge caution about placing any human on a pedestal, that's my advice.

[@natnat8199]

Ironically, these “catholic fundamentalists” are Protestant converts

[@schwdan]

This was so helpful! Thank you! In the homeschool community I feel that some of us are prone to putting upon ourselves frivolous "heavy burdens," such as you must only be breastfeeding or pregnant, only child led weaning, have a baby every two years, "attachment parenting," cloth diaper, baby wearing a certain way, co-sleeping, anti vaccination, covid denying, only homeschooling, gluten free/strict diet, must wear skirts, must veil at Mass, must bring babies and toddlers to Mass (cannot divide and conquer or the children will not gain graces because they're staying home), say entire family rosary everyday, must put Christmas tree up on Christmas Day, the longer your tree stays up the more Catholic you are 😂, NOT saying Merry Christmas during Advent, no meat on all Fridays without exception or substitution, no babysitters, no dishwashers 😅, being extremely frugal, ect 😂 Now! Are any of these things BAD? Of course not but taken altogether these should never be seen as rules for following the true Catholicism. I have done probably all of these things at least at some point but I see now that everyone has their own path and these are more just "rules" we oppose on ourselves. Some of us tend to overburden ourselves but it effects other people so we need to be mindful of this. Thank you, Trent Horn!!!

[@Catholicity-uw2yb]

Merry Christmas everyone!

[@IsaRedcup]

Thank you so much for this. As a catholic woman i feel so put off by how extreme some people are. It's ok to vaccinate your children and it's ok to use a crib, your child will be ok if you can't hold him every 5 min. And yes i think you should use more than vinegar and baking soda to wash your clothes lol

[@msalwowski]

As much as I generally appreciate the work of Mr. Trent Horn, I have the irresistible impression that in this particular video he went a few bridges too far. So: 1. it is one thing to be obedient to what the pope and bishops explicitly and officially teach, and quite another to extend such obedience to the more or less common - yet “unofficial” - pastoral practice performed by the bishops or even the popes themselves. During World War II, for example, neither Pope Pius XII nor the German and Austrian bishops taught that Catholic soldiers should refuse to swear absolute allegiance to the leader of the Third Reich. And on the contrary, at least some of the Catholic bishops of Germany and Austria suggested that it was the duty of Catholics to take part in the war on the side of the Third Reich. Following the logic presented by Mr. Trent Horn, one might therefore wonder whether an Austrian Catholic like Blessed Franz Jägerstätter did the right thing when - contrary to the teachings of these bishops, as well as the advice of his local bishop and parish priest - he refused to take such an oath, and was sentenced to death as a result. 2 The Church's authoritative teaching may not address these or other moral issues at a given time, but this does not mean that there is no right answer to them in the objective order, and that this or that Catholic will not yet come to find such a right answer - even if the Church's Magisterium has not spoken on the subject. For example, there is currently no authoritative teaching from the Church's Magisterium regarding whether active participation in LGBT parades or accepting an invitation to a homosexual wedding is a matter of sin. This does not mean, however, that there is no right answer to this question in the objective order, and that those Catholics who emphatically assert that participation in such events is a matter of sin are erring in this way. 3 Mr. Gabriel Castillo did not make a very precise statement about extramarital male-female dances, and from the broader context of what he said and wrote on the subject, it can be inferred that his intention was simply to reiterate the traditional teaching of the saints and theologians that such dances (i.e., those performed between unmarried men and women) are usually or at least very often a near occasion of sin (which, however, does not yet mean that intrinsically evil). Yes, in recent decades, the common (although unofficial) pastoral practice in the Catholic Church contradicts this traditional teaching, but what I wrote in point number 1 indicates that it is not always safe to uncritically follow what the Church's shepherds "allow" - in the sense that there is no official teaching on the subject of a given custom or behavior, and many Church shepherds de facto even encourage it in their practice, so we conclude that in such a case the custom/behavior is most likely objectively good and proper. Ps. Sorry for my poor English

[@olorinmartinez]

Yeah, Trent kinda missed the whole point.

[@mackie9255]

Yeah, lumping Gabi in with the rad trads just goes to show that Trent doesn’t know much about him. I love both Gabi and Trent… would love to see them collab

[@TheLeftRbabieskillers]

Right on!

[@JNJ1014]

I know this is irrelevant to the discussion but just so we're clear, your grasp of the English language better than at least 95% of those born in the U.S. whose 1st language is English 😊 So to say your English is poor then write "who emphatically assert that participation in such events is a matter of sin are erring" is hilarious 😂 Most non-native speakers would have trouble with the phonetics alone if they wrote "are erring" & most native English speakers don't write so eloquently. Just my 2 cents but also I agree with all of your points as well! God bless you 🙏

[@StaLu68]

Perfect elucidation. I totally agree. Mr Trent - I think it's important to get to know the opinions of theologians- moralists (up to 20th century). the overwhelming majority viewed male-female dancing outside of marriage... unfaverably or plainly sinful, something to be utterly avoided. These unanimous opinions must mean something. Why should I not trust saints and great theologians? Francis de Sales was one of the few who presented the moderate view of dances (dances in general). He allowed dancing but with many reservations... always pointing that it's dangerous for one spiritual growth. And it is worth noting that today's dance clubs and the dances performed there are much more passionate and immodest. It'd make some sense to stop reapting saints words - DANCES ARE BAD if modern dances were really modest, but they are not. They are worse than hundreds years ago.

[@sophiasouthern]

Hey Trent, great video. I chuckled at your trad wife influencer commentary - spot on. I’d really appreciate a full-length video discussing the veiling and how we are to interpret St. Paul on this. I’ve been conflicted for years as to whether to veil or not. Thanks for your hard work!

[@elig2134]

I wear a hat instead of a veil 😅

[@davidandbernadettegockowsk9077]

If women do not have to veil then men can definitely wear a baseball cap to Mass since this comes from the same tradition.

[@jendoe9436]

I started veiling because I am a bit of a mind wander-er and the veil does help me focus better. Plus, they are quite pretty and I don’t have to worry about my hair as much 😉 But overall, if a priest or spiritual director told me to not veil then I would comply. And I don’t worry whether or not some other lady is veiling, and don’t really like it when others approach me about how “wonderful” it is I’m veiling. Had a semi awkward conversation with a sweet lady after daily mass about how much better it was to see gals veiling, and how Mary calls for her daughters to veil in white, and all that. I just smiled and nodded, but inside was screaming “please, please, please stop!!!” 😅

[@rosepistilli223]

​@@davidandbernadettegockowsk9077does it?

[@davidandbernadettegockowsk9077]

@@rosepistilli223 why does the Church enforce men to remove their hats? It’s because of the tradition going back to apostolic times that men pray with their heads uncovered. This happens in every Catholic Church around the world so it’s not just cultural, yet women can do what they want in this regard. That’s a double standard, either encourage the traditional garb for both men and women or abandon the tradition for both. If it is just a cultural custom, then we can change it.

[@summergracezuniga6839]

"You cannot prohibit what the Church permits" great video Trent

[@frostbitemansion9610]

NFP is licit according to the church only to INCREASE chance of pregnancy and never with a “contraceptive mindset.” The Church never taught that NFP would be allowed to be used with the goal of avoiding pregnancy. That is a disordered use of the sexual act.

[@mattphelan1252]

Trent: thank you so much for this. I was a victim of this sort of stuff and it really did a lot of damage to me psychologically. I just wanted to follow what the Church has always taught and ended up purity spiraling. It was awful. God delivered me through prayers of the Blessed Mother. Thank you for speaking out against this-it is a silent killer!

[@ServusMariae_]

Same here brother!! Agreed, extremely grateful for this video

[@SneakyEmu]

I love how disappointed and grumpy Trent always looks in the thumbnail

[@TedfromTorrance]

I wish Priests would condemn masterbation, pornography, fornication, homosexuality, and adultery in their homilies. Our church needs to promote the FUNDAMENTAL moral teachings of the ten commandments.

[@davidandbernadettegockowsk9077]

Whoa! Very rigid of you

[@observingyt6159]

Even if a parish priest does not speak sermons against masturbation... I'd still assume many people in the parish would have confessed that sin to him or confess sometimes. He would then give them penance in confession and maybe even advice. The priest would likely assess their attitude to any of the things you mentioned

[@mugrat5513]

Is a public sermon where children are or may be present the best forum to have a reminder about the church's stance on m@sterbation?

[@hamie7624]

Well you're clearly a mean old rad trad.

[@hamie7624]

​@@mugrat5513Yes. Hiding the teaching of the church is cowardly. Mary showed the young children at Fatima the horrifying torments of the damned in Hell.

[@MalumbaBono]

As ever, plain, orthodox, good sense politely and persuasively spoken. Thank you, Trent. God bless you and all you love!

[@DouglasTheDon]

Trent, if you are criticizing Gabriel, please at least make an argument for it. In that video he has quoted many great saints and his argument is actually good. Also even if he is wrong, that was a video of his 10 years ago. Why bring this up to harm his reputation, especially against someone who have done great to many Catholics like me?

[@GajodharMandeep]

Exactly, trent lost a bit of respect in my eyes because of this

[@Theosis_and_prayer]

I know right? And look at how far Trent goes - saying he's a Pharisee, placing heavy burdens on people etc. And apparently gabi is not allowed to have a view on the morality of dancing.

[@stevenjames6830]

@@Theosis_and_prayer because he’s insane and everyone who thinks like that is also insane just because some saints said something it really doesn’t matter. This is nothing but Puritanical madness that leads people away from Catholicism.

[@Theosis_and_prayer]

@stevenjames6830 So gabiafterhours is insane? Have you seen his content? What a shameful state Catholicicism is in if men are so weak they think avoiding dancing is a heavy burden. Our previous generations fought in war and we can't even abstain from dancing. By all means disagree with gabi. But the fact you think he's insane for having this view shows how weak Catholics have become.

[@carsonianthegreat4672]

@@stevenjames6830calling people “insane” is a very weak argument

[@marmor3957]

There is too much aglomeration in this video. Gabi after hours or Timothy Gordon never called the Pope Bergoglio yet you are putting them in the same space as Peter Dimond or Taylor Marshall. There are nuances there that you didn't address in your definition of "Catholic Fundamentalism" and the videos used where completely taken out of context. You were offered plenty of times to debate Gordon, (I think it should be on Pint of Aquinas rather then the channel propused) and never accepted, yet you decide to difame his views indirectly on this video, which makes you look like a coward. It's shame because I don't disagree with the premise, but it was poorly executed

[@Leo-uq6jp]

When Trent argues like a liberal Catholic...

[@cerebrummaximus3762]

Not really: "fundamentalist" (or "fundie", which I prefer as a term for extreme fundamentalists to differentiate between what you are referring to) has developed a meaning of its own. People who claim to believe the Bible to the fullest, yet read it as if it's fiction. Generally, fundies tend to take verses out of context and take them literally without regarding the point of that verse. On the other extreme, liberals disregard the Bible near-entirely, and do not hold doctrines that are clear for Christianity. Although there are different reasons for this liberalism, a common one is claim of supposed adherence to science - however, in reality, they fall into making the same mistake as fundies, by taking verses out of their context as historical facts described in the language of Ancient Israel, and miss out more scientific answers, ones that are actually compatible with the Bible, for many that are less charitable, only appear to be more scientific and contradict Christian doctrines, just to stroke their reassurance. Funnily enough, liberals of all kinds believe in God, yet close Him in a box of their imagination, and things that can be explained elsewhere, they overlook. Both these extremes take the Bible out of context and overlook many doctrines. The Bible isn't like you everyday fiction book, that is read the same manner forth. It is a collection of historical sources, from records, to narrative accounts, poems and proses, allegories to witnesses, collected all in a two book cannon. It should not be treated as your everyday fiction, and each individual source that comprises the two Testaments should be read individually, studied deeply, learned about, and read in-context. Christ teaches us to be humble, and reading a collection of historical sources from far back before us is a perfect practice for humbleness, because we must realise we don't know all, and that the Bible is there to be studied and read well. This is why some of the best Christians (see Trent, or Michael Jones from IP) are some of the most well educated and studious people, because in order to explore their faith to the fullest, they quite literally need to study a historical source, and likely many guides, contextuals, and writings from theologians, Academics, saints, and the Church Fathers, in order to follow their faith to the fullest.

[@ErezElene]

You guys think that anything less than radical is "liberal". God calls us to Prudence--the straight and narrow path. It's easy to fall into extremes, and Trent is awesome because he refuses to do so.

[@hamie7624]

​​@@ErezElene Christ said if we aren't extreme he will vomit us out. Revelation 3:16 be extreme for Christ

[@Heracleetus]

If I listen too much to rigorists and rad trads it makes me feel hopeless, like i don't have the strength or fortitude to live a holy life

[@TheBrunohusker]

Thank you for this Trent. More and more I find it hard to just be Catholic in this day and age. It stinks too when you’re somebody who that’s all you wanna be you don’t need any qualifiers for whether it be liberal or in this case traditionalist or conservative or fundamentalist or whatever they call themselves. I remember Tim Staples said this when years ago he made a video on Catholic Answers about radical traditionalism. I’m glad to see that this kind of movement is finally picking up Steve. I hope people are nice to you and I hope nobody is sending nasty messages to you and Laura, as one that’s very rude and sad because a lot of them will be self described Catholics who will claim to be better people but sadly once you insult them, they tend to forget all that. I can’t always say that I agree with you 100% on everything but I will say that I agree with everything the church teaches and that to me makes you a good guy and makes us brothers and faith and, sometimes I wish Catholics would recognize this. I essentially feel that those on the more fundamentalist side, rigid as pope. Francis has said even if I don’t necessarily agree with the way, he used it. He might have a point. It gets really silly. People say I am not Catholic for a number of reasons whether it’s because my wife and I only have one kid never mind that we have fertility issues, I have had people tell me Catholic vote presidential candidates and never voted for a candidate who I thought fit with teaching everyone. I have been told I am a bad Catholic because I attended the wrong mass or because I had played at guitar masses when I was younger or because, I don’t always disagree with AllTrails and I don’t think that EMC’s are always a bad idea. It’s sad that we disagree on all these little things and yet they caused us to be divided sadly the bigger things are us and honestly if we united that maybe we could actually have a better church and a better world.

[@rich1147]

Good video and much needed. There's too many Catholics on social media who will bind the thoughts of man to doctrines established by themselves. Especially as a new Catholic (not even gone through OCIA yet) I was hoping to leave all the private interpretation behind when I left Protestantism. It's really sad to see accounts, especially with large numbers, bind the stuff they do. It's also tricky for me as a newcomer and sometimes can be quite torturous, especially as a scrupulosity suffer, to think you are potentially being sinful because one influence carelessly spouted some incorrect thoughts.

[@vinciblegaming6817]

Pints, Trent, and Joe Heschmeyer walked with me through my conversion. I’m not a big scrupulosity sufferer, but I’m glad I was sheltered from the liturgy wars (and Gabi) while converting. Learn the faith and grow in holiness. Some of the trad stuff might find a place in your life, but it is so helpful to know what you can choose not to do if you are uncomfortable with it.

[@fhblake04]

Christ is King.

[@fij715]

Frisbee is sin

[@drewd5811]

Christ is King. The Novus Ordo is valid and licit. Listen to the magisterium especially if it challenges your private judgments.

[@hamie7624]

​@@drewd5811that's a lot of assumptions of someone's character...

[@susand3668]

@@hamie7624 ? Why is good advice making "assumptions of someone's character"? I feel like I am missing something.

[@drewd5811]

@@susand3668 Yep. What's wrong with attending a valid mass and listening to the magisterium. That seems to follow Christ being King.

[@thejollyviking8083]

Trent, considering the fact that you yourself have aired your disagreements with the current hierarchy about a number of things, I really don't think you can "call out" Jacob Imam for saying that the Bishops are *doing* (instead of teaching) something wrong. Jacob's point is that just because the Bishops (or even the Pope) are doing something doesn't mean that it's in line with Catholic moral teaching, a point you yourself have made in your debates with Protestants. Obviously this isn't the same level of severity, but can you imagine someone saying "look, shuffling around pedophile priests and covering up their sins must be okay, because that's what the Bishops are doing!"

[@Zenkai251]

I don't like the word "fundamentalism", as it implies there's something wrong with the fundamentals of the faith.

[@carsonianthegreat4672]

Exactly. Using fundamentalist as a slur is a very weird take and borrows tactics from liberals.

[@nathanielwhite4724]

@@carsonianthegreat4672 So fundamentalism as a term came about because of a sect within the protestant church (Baptists specifically) that decided that the rest of the Church was too far gone, and they were going to lay down what the fundamentals of the Church were and wrote a series of works expounding upon that. They literally called this series of books "The Fundamentals". they were known for having an extremely literalistic interpretation of scripture and being strongly authoritative. They somewhat-without-realizing-it set up a protestant equivalent of a magisterium to strictly interpret what was and what wasn't the true Christian faith. While they reacted to a real problem in the protestant church (the growth of liberal Protestantism) they took it much too far and created an extremely rigid and burdensome version of the faith. I've had much experience with them myself as a former Protestant. Given that history, it is actually an apt name to use for Catholics who do the same thing. Catholics who practically set up an alternative magisterium of their own to "rightly interpret" the Church's teachings on faith and morals, and specifically create a stricter and more burdensome version of the faith. Liberalism in the Church is wrong and should be combatted and resisted strenuously, but following protestants in creating an overly reactionary, strict, and excessively sin focused version of the faith with what is practically an alternate magisterium to teach us the true faith is also wrong. Two wrongs don't make a right.

[@user-ks3qr5fk6m]

Fundamentalism is orthodoxy and faithfulness to the teachings of Christ.

[@carsonianthegreat4672]

@@nathanielwhite4724 that is historically illiterate. First off, the word Fundamentalism was popularized by the Presbyterians, not the Baptists. Secondly, the word Fundamentalist was coined to defend 5 principles that were being denied in the 1910s by the deistic rationalists. These 5 principles were: 1) the inspiration of scripture, 2) the virgin birth, 3) the Christ’s atonement on the cross, 4) the bodily resurrection, and 5) the historicity of the New Testament miracles.

[@nathanielwhite4724]

@@carsonianthegreat4672 And quickly became about way more than that. That version of fundamentalism lasted about 15 years before beginning to evolve into the extremism we think of when we think of fundamentalism today. I think it was only within about 15 years that the fundamentalist movement went from striving to reform mainline denominations to becoming separationist and founding their own denominations.

[@dominicluke7]

Have to disagree with you here Trent on the matter of Purity that you attacked. Teachings that the Popes and Fathers have constantly taught for 2000 years aren't thrown away because the current Pope or Magisterium haven't addressed it.

[@MystoRobot]

That exact thought passed through my mind. His view makes him dangerously blind (or numb) to the cunning tactics of our infiltrated enemies.

[@somber_whimsy]

Sex is always at least venially sinful

[@CatholicSpartan]

@@somber_whimsy You think it's a venial sin if your married and are hoping for a baby?

[@somber_whimsy]

@@CatholicSpartan in that case the ends justify the means

[@Thunderjerky]

@@somber_whimsy Tfw the Church endorses sin

[@LuisGarcia-zq1hi]

This is a very informative video, thank you Trent. Personally speaking, I agree with Trent Horn on this topic. Catholics should study their faith, and adhere to the teachings of the Magisterium to avoid becoming a lukewarm Catholic, or a radicalized Catholic whom imposes unnecessary disciplines on others. I believe it’s good for Catholics to follow strict disciplines-if it is positively enriching their relationship with God-but they must beware themselves from falling into false humility, and other spiritual dangers. All in all, study your Catholic faith in order to avoid falling into false paths of light.

[@Electric_]

I am so glad you and many other Catholics are pushing back effectively on these folks. They cause people to leave the faith, not deepen their faith.

[@RobertPatton-kz6lq]

I would say 🏳️‍🌈 loving clergy and SA cover ups cause far more to leave the church

[@bman5257]

@@RobertPatton-kz6lqThen both deserve criticism.

[@Thunderjerky]

Everything causes people to lose their faith, lowest common denominator Catholics lose faith, progressive Catholics lose faith, Rad-Trads lose faith, priests lose faith, and everyone else. This is rage-bait by Trent

[@UncleKlausSchwab]

Nonsense. If you came to Europe you'll see the major cause of apostasy aren't KZbinrs but high ranking clergy still in "good standing" who betrayed the trust of their flock.

[@bman5257]

@@UncleKlausSchwab It isn’t just KZbinrs, many people who leave the faith are those who are taught that fundamentalist opinions are dogma. Think of all the ex-Evangelicals who lost their faith after learning the Earth isn’t 6000 years old.

[@debbie2027]

The church teaches "minimum" requirements and yes they are acceptable .... go to mass on Sunday ... go to confession 1x per year AND receiving our Lord in the most blessed sacrament ... If I practiced in the way mentioned above, I truly wouldn't be much of a practicing Catholic .... if that makes me a Pharisee then so be it

[@Catholicity-uw2yb]

The rule is not to go to confession 1x per year. It's to receive communion once a year. If you have no mortal sin, confession is not required. And yes that makes you a practicing Pharisee.

[@Causainstrumentalis]

​@@Catholicity-uw2ybWow, such cringe

[@StanleyPinchak]

​@@Catholicity-uw2yb“But because thou art lukewarm and neither cold nor hot, I will begin to vomit thee out of my mouth.” (Rev 3:16, DRC)

[@Catholicity-uw2yb]

@@StanleyPinchak POPE BENEDICT XVI: While Catholics believe the Bible is inspired by the Holy Spirit and that it is true, “one cannot take individual biblical quotes or passages and say each one is literally true.” “It is possible to understand the sacred Scriptures as the word of God only by looking at the Bible as a whole, a totality in which the individual elements enlighten each other and open the way to understanding. It is not possible to apply the criterion of inspiration or of absolute truth in a mechanical way, extrapolating a single phrase or expression.” Catholic News Service, May 2011

[@charlesfisher83]

Congratulations on not understanding a damn thing he was talking about

[@aldoism1455]

Thanks for this video it is quite frustrating to see the fruits of our church poisoned by these mindsets.

[@blacklamb8393]

I once got into an argument with a dude online claiming that the Catholic Church was against mixed race couples and it was inherently evil to do so. I asked him his source and he cites some random Italian bishop from forever ago. Like that’s the dude you’re getting your infallible information from?? 💀🙏🏼

[@cerebrummaximus3762]

You risk taking the verse out of context, but I am curious how he'd react if you slam the classic "We are all one in Christ"

[@kinghoodofmousekind2906]

I recall that quote. And, in all honesty, it has to do more with being cautious because the children may grow up in a family whose values, languages, and traditions could cause them to feel like they do not belong (which is good advice when placed in the context of that bishop speaking at that time).

[@Heracleetus]

Pinesap?

[@x-popone6817]

@@Heracleetus Pinesap doesn't think it is inherently evil to race mix, as far as I know.

[@Heracleetus]

@@x-popone6817 correct but people misunderstand his position all the time, which is why I asked

[@kiwicoproductions2828]

Still hoping this leads to a Trent Horn dialogue with either of the following: Tim Gordon, Taylor Marshall, Kennedy Hall or others.

[@MarkJohnson-dr4ws]

Yet again, Trent veers into vague territories and clearly bitter personal and passive aggressive attacks when he leaves his expertise on apologetics . His portrayal of so-called Catholic fundamentalists lacks substance. He tactically focuses upon fringe attitudes and positions and smears all with these absurdities. I know nobody that cites podcasters. Instead, what is usually cited as counter to current novelties and rupture is the consistency of Church teaching and of relevant Encyclicals. It seems Trent is dancing to somebody else's tune.

[@asherbernardi]

Who's tune do you think?

[@aok777]

The immediate display of Trent’s confusion in the first few minutes was overwhelming enough, but calling Gabi a fundamentalist??? 😂😂😂 What a clown show. “Did God really tell you not to eat the fruit from some tree? Okay, but he didn’t tell you not to sniff it, rub it all over your face, or lick it. Stop being such a fundamentalist! Loosen up!”

[@TheJmlew11]

I dunno if he was calling him a fundamentalist. But that fundamentalist thinking was being presented on the view of swing dancing and ballroom dancing.

[@custardoydamian]

@@aok777 True, should've called him an 'idiot.'

[@AndrewDolder]

Gabi asserted that singles should not dance together on the basis of a non-magisterial teaching. Thus Trent labels this as Pharisaical. That was the point.

[@aok777]

I stand corrected then. Let them dance and twerk to their hearts' content.

[@RealSeanithan]

There's a very modern idea that's associated with liberalism, but it's common to all modernism: what is not forbidden is mandatory; what is not mandatory is forbidden. It's a good way to find a modernist who's snuck his way into what was supposed to be a very good thing (the traditionalist movement).

[@uverpro3598]

This seems like a bit of a stretch. These same Bishops when called upon to defend the flock and basic moral principle will be the first to compel the layman, “this is a secular matter! It is your duty to represent the Church’s teachings!” But to do so now makes us Pharisees? Is it charitable to excommunicate Cardinal Vigano or Bishop Strickland for making an error while promotion of Orthodoxy but keeping skittle priests and pornographers at your right hand? We have to clean our own house first, and there’s a difference between judging your superiors and letting 1,900 years of magisterium judge them.

[@purpleflurp6601]

My wife and I attend a beautiful TLM and I love it but occasionally we hear some of the statements noted in this video from parishioners. This video is a huge help thank you Trent!

[@deedeedum1]

I agree with a lot of the things you say, but that video by Gabiafterhours on dancing was actually a good video, yes he was saying that you shouldn't go to dances as they can stir up passions in young people. But to just mention him like he was apart of this minority youre speaking of feels a bit dishonest to me. He's has done a lot for catholics around the world.

[@mishaalalquaddoomi159]

Completely agree, Gabi’s video was an honest attempt to help young people avoid occasions of sin and remain chaste. Gabi has been a wonderful influence and has motivated me and I’m sure many others to pray and seek holiness.

[@GajodharMandeep]

Exactly Trent including Gabi who was crucial for my consecration to mother mary left a sour taste in my mouth

[@Eilonwy95]

@@mishaalalquaddoomi159 I’m sure he is a very good man. I have no problems with Gavin Castillo. But what I wonder about anyone who takes issue with swing dances is “have they ever been to one?” I went to plenty in highschool and college and I cannot see how it is possibly an occasion for sin. It’s just dancing. It’s not tempting in any way. But maybe I’m just a really bad dancer so it wasn’t an issue. 😂

[@kena3234]

This video is missing the question, what is the right way to give advice in matters of holiness. Chapel veils and kissing might not be regulated anymore by the magisterium, but certainly its appropriate to draw wisdom from the past and try to apply it to modern issues.

[@Eilonwy95]

@@kena3234 I think one can definitely give advice based on past documents or writings, but I think the issue arises when you state with some kind of fake authority that it is gravely sinful to do things the church allows (like NFP) or required to do certain things (like non mandatory fasts) the church doesn’t require.

[@maryjordan4129]

I always find Trent Horn to be a voice of reason I can count on.

[@Thatoneguy-pu8ty]

Is that a pun?

[@Serquss]

Trent is right; however, I think there needs to be some empathy for the 'fundamentalists'. Most Catholic fundamentalism is a reaction to the weak wishy washy catechism most Catholics have gone through which sent them away into atheism, agnostism, or some protestant variant. When fallen away Catholics re-discover the faith and find joy in the traditions of the saints, there's a risk of an over-exuberance in the application of these traditions.

[@Heinrich.Denzinger]

yeah

[@bobjenkins3rd]

The weak wishy washy catechism is the air Trent Horn breathes though. One logical extrapolation of this video is that it is the superior catechism.

[@tMatt5M]

This video is loaded with strawmen. You know this because you've cited no "fundamentists" who are trads. Your stawmanning of trads makes you come across as a whiny legalist. You're not viewing the people you disagree with in a charitable light.

[@saetainlatin]

About dancing, Thomas Kempis in his book "The Imitation of Christ", repeats incessantly the duty of the Christian to apart himself from worldly pleasures, because they separates us from Christ. That's why you can find some church fathers going to the desert. Is not about fundamentalism, is about avoiding occasions to sin, although is licit and not sinful in itself. The one that is faithful in the small things, will be faithful in the big things.

[@davidandbernadettegockowsk9077]

Well then, Thomas A Kempis was a rigid Pharisee too!

[@larstiranos]

Unfortunately, today, simply avoiding near occasions of sin is seen as "radical" or "fundamentalist."

[@AndrewTheMandrew531]

Is it a duty or a suggestion to go out into the Desert?

[@saetainlatin]

@@AndrewTheMandrew531 My rhetorical purpose to mention that church fathers went into the desert, was to point out into which extreme saints go to disconnect themselves from worldly pleasures. Once you start following Christ' Cross you yourself develop a distaste for the mundane. So TLDR: Christ himself will lead you to the desert (metaphorically speking)

[@AndrewTheMandrew531]

@@saetainlatin And yet Daniel lived among the pagans for years, keeping his faith. Again, you impose unnecessary moral standards based on old quotes. Calling something which is not a sin in the eyes of Holy Mother Church as a sin is wrong.

[@Deuterocomical]

Trent’s line about trad wives was so good

[@davidandbernadettegockowsk9077]

Yes, we need more modern independent women leading families and the Church. That has mostly not been tried in the last hundred years and it never leads to unhappiness, sin, misery or the destruction of the family. Brava!

[@Deuterocomical]

@@davidandbernadettegockowsk9077 Not at all what I was promoting. I think we need more wives staying at home, actually. But the online "trad wife" larp is just cringe.

[@leviwilliams9601]

Pretty sure that was not what he said or what Trent said..... ​@@davidandbernadettegockowsk9077

[@davidandbernadettegockowsk9077]

@@Deuterocomicalfair enough!

[@elig2134]

I agree! Imho, this social media trend has pushed people away from Catholicism. If you want to evangelize, just follow your vocation and pray. I think that showing off on social media is just like the Pharisees.

[@Hillcountry_Catholic]

I personally love veiling but I don’t see it as an obligation to enforce on others. I do it to honor God and I don’t care what anyone else has to think about it.

[@frostbitemansion9610]

One can suggest that it is an important practice that should be reestablished in cannon law but it cannot be sinful not to.

[@littlerock5256]

But every woman praying or prophesying with her head not covered disgraceth her head [1 Cor. 11:5]

[@littlerock5256]

@JesusRulez-l3j Husbands must be obedient to Biblical teaching.

[@littlerock5256]

@JesusRulez-l3j If a husband contradicts Scripture then a wife has no obligation to obey.

[@lukebrasting5108]

I dare you to reasech what the saints said about veiling and then ask yourself why the practice was conveniently done away with at the exact time women's clothing became shorter, tighter and more revealing. It's not a coincidence. Read the leaked Masonic document The Permanent Instruction of the Alta Vendita and you'll understand why.

[@EinSofVirtuoso]

I remember encountering fundamentalists that one shouldn't engage in humor or laughter, quoting St. John Chrysostom how Jesus was always serious if not sad (how nice). Then I mentioned the entire life story and ministry of St. Philip Neri and apparently that short-circuited their logic.

[@timothyigoe6171]

If I needed to choose between Catholic fundamentalist or Catholic liberalism, I would pick the fundamentalist every time. You wouldn’t?

[@BraydenBelt]

There’s no need to choose one or the other. There’s a middle ground

[@sophiajohnson8608]

I strongly disagree, Mr. Horn. Certain actions have long been condemned by the Church and do not suddenly become licit merely because the progressivist, post-conciliar Church has stopped being vigilant. You suggest that private interpretation of magisterial documents is no different from private interpretation of Scripture, but this is false. Unlike Scripture, magisterial documents have always been clear and understandable for all educated Catholics. Besides, in most cases, the meaning of these documents was never disputed before the Council. You suggest that Catholics who appeal to the days before the Council are following in the footsteps of Protestants who appealed to apostolic times. However, there is an important difference. Protestants were factually incorrect, and even a cursory study of the Church Fathers proves the Catholic position correct. By contrast, Catholics who recall the way things were before the 1960s (including some people who even lived in the pre-conciliar days) remember how things used to be.

[@ConfusedGermanShepherd-ch7gh]

A super new convert from Protestantism here, but are you disagreeing with the Second Vatican council ?

[@sophiajohnson8608]

@@ConfusedGermanShepherd-ch7gh Welcome to the Catholic Faith! Congratulations on your decision to enter the Barque of Peter. You are in my prayers. To answer your question: the letter of the documents of Vatican II is a separate matter from the spirit/interpretation of these documents. The Council Fathers were so skillful in their strategy (as some have termed it, their "weaponized ambiguity") that it is almost certain they knew what they were doing. Does the Council teach outright heresy? Perhaps not. But, as Fr. Karl Rahner stated, "What is most important in the Council is not the letter of the decree it promulgated. They still need to be translated into life and action by all of us. Its spirit, its more advanced tendencies, this is what is the most important." The liberalism we see in the Church after Vatican II is a good example of this spirit. Some Council Fathers took an "evolutionary" stance to the Faith, suggesting that our understanding of the truth deepens and shifts over time. According to this way of thinking, traditional interpretations of Catholic teaching are overly simplistic, unsophisticated, and sometimes backwards. We must move to a more enlightened, rational conscience. The application of this pertains to much more than moral theology, but even in this video I see that Mr. Horn seems to adhere to this erroneous way of thinking. It is quite insidious, actually, because progressivists tend to appeal to authority and papal infallibility (two thoroughly Catholic concepts) in order to undermine the very edifice of Catholic truth.

[@StanleyPinchak]

​@@sophiajohnson8608It is interesting that you mention a deeper understanding that changes over time. This was explicitly condemned in Vatican I. "Hence, too,that meaning of the sacred dogmas is ever to be maintained which has once been declared by holy mother church, and there must never be any abandonment of this sense under the pretext or in the name of a more profound understanding." ". If anyone says that it is possible that at some time, given the advancement of knowledge, a sense may be assigned to the dogmas propounded by the church which is different from that which the church has understood and understands: let him be anathema."

[@sophiajohnson8608]

​@@StanleyPinchak Wow, thank you for finding this quote! I agree with you that the concept of an evolving Catholic conscience is, frankly, heretical. I am curious to see how Mr. Horn would respond to it. I am guessing he would say something along the lines of, "This video is merely referring to disciplinary matters, which can in fact change over time and which do not pertain to absolute morality." Yet, with something like dances or purity before marriage, I simply do not see that argument working.

[@ConfusedGermanShepherd-ch7gh]

@@sophiajohnson8608 But do you think Vatican II was a valid ecumenical council ?

[@fragwagon]

There is a coin, intricately cut and stamped. On one side is the face of Fr. James Martin, and on the other is Carlo Vigano. The currency of disobedience, and you can buy all the food you want with it. But it's all spoiled

[@javaman8895]

well said!

[@mrwhisk863]

Why don’t you address the question of how the church has changed its mind on what used to be pretty straight forward?

[@sophiajohnson8608]

Exactly!

[@jerryczarski5991]

Read the classic Saint John Henry Newman, "An Essay on the Development of Christian Doctrine". This will show how our intellectual expression of revelation comes to be. We always also need to understand the difference between dogma, doctrine, and prudential juridical statements. Not all things are equal in importance.

[@PoisonShot20]

Amen!

[@alexanderkaneklides921]

Could you elaborate on what the Church has changed her mind on?

[@jerryczarski5991]

Most of the examples of what was changed are disciplines. At one time we would fast on Wednesdays and Fridays and abstain from meat. The money saved from this was given to the poor. The Protestants were considered Heretics during the Reformation. Now they do not have that label because those who exist today were never Catholic. Anathemas are no longer given. And many more examples. Over a 2000-year history, there are many tweaks to rationale involving rules.

[@dwong9289]

GabiAfterHours is not a rad trad. That’s quite dishonest.

[@Diana10000]

I don’t think he is saying Gabi is a RadTrad, but speaking as if something is morally defined when it isn’t regarding purity.

[@dwong9289]

@@Diana10000 he had him under the section of radtrads. Its dishonest. Trent would be accusing St. Robert Bellarmine, St. Francis de Sales, St. John Vianney, Pope Benedict XIV, The Tenth Council of Baltimore, etc. of being a radtrad for saying pre-marital dances are almost always sinful

[@Diana10000]

@@dwong9289 He would probably make a cultural, contextual argument for them. But I agree in the sense that there are far better people for him to use than Gabi when it comes to fundamentalism. This is a very important video though, it’s an easy rabbit hole to fall into when you start to become catechised.

[@deedeedum1]

yeah that made me a little angry

[@AndrewDolder]

Gabi put up a Pharisaical video about dancing. It is appropriate to call that out because he crossed a line. (I do like Gabi's other videos, though.)

[@steveb5331]

Trent, you are what you claim the others to be. You give your opinion, they gives theirs. Rather than taking small clips out of context, why not debate these folks on your podcast so folks can really see what their positions are and lay out your arguments and we can balance that against church teaching.

[@NickFromDetroit]

The Church’s Magisterium, dogmas, and doctrines are not a matter of someone’s opinion. They either are, or are not.

[@steveb5331]

@@NickFromDetroit Trent’s interpretation or Gordon’s of doctrine and dogma based on their reading of it? Never forget that all these guys are making a living off of KZbin by attacking each other and creating controversy for subscriptions.

[@NickFromDetroit]

@@steveb5331 , The Church’s teachings on the subjects Trent mentions in this video are pretty clear. No “interpretation” is required, nor should be attempted. Just follow the Church’s documents on the relevant subjects. This takes some time and effort. In other words, work. Trent was working for Catholic Answers before YT was created. He is only proclaiming the Gospel of Christ and clarifying Church teaching in his part of the world for a modern audience. He’s not getting rich, I’m sure.

[@nixolett]

I've read Mrs Gordon's book and watched some videos from the Gordons. They really teach that if a wife works outside the home it's a mortal sin. Even if the woman doesn't have any kids or they are older. The other gem Stephanie Gordon writes in her book that you should have sex with your husband even if you're very tired or you're a sinner. Honestly I try to never say no to my husband but there were times when I was dead tired and sleepy and said no. And it happened the other way too. I didn't think that my husband is a sinner because he said he is too tired to have sex with me. I was thinking ok have a good sleep you deserve it and we'll have sex the next day. The Gordons do teach crazy and harmful stuff and reading them into papal documents even if they state the opposite.

[@NickFromDetroit]

@@nixolett, I’d never heard of them until Trent’s video. I watched them on a few videos, did a search on him and found he wrote some articles for Crisis Magazine in ‘17, and found them very uncharitable, to say the very least. Yes, they both think they are more Catholic than the pope. Or the rest of us! Lol God bless!

[@alicelara6449]

Trent chose to spit fire to the RadTrads today 🎉

[@sirzorg5728]

I personally choose a mix of traditionalist and more modern life choices, WITHIN THE BOUNDS OF WHAT THE CHURCH TEACHES. I hope my girlfriend, once she becomes my wife, won't have to work, but if we need to do that, we will without feeling like it's a sin. Plus, we have been handholding and cuddling on the couch, because that's an important way to build up bonding hormones before marriage. We are at no risk of anything that crosses the line into sinful-before-marriage, because we both made it clear to eachother when we started the relationship that those boundaries would NOT be crossed until we are married.

[@Adam-fj9px]

You've got the exact same thinking as me. I go to the Latin mass because I enjoy the traditional liturgy, and I hope I'd be able to make enough money to provide for my family off one income, but if not and my future wife needed to work a part time job no way would I think that's sinful, nor do I think that a bf and gf cuddling together is sinful, it's how you make those connections to know you're right to get married, I cannot understand those that say people shouldn't have any physical contact prior to marriage

[@ChrisLongSun]

Trent loses a lot of credibility when he says that these “fundamentalists” can quote authoritative prior Catholic teaching (like Popes or Councils) or saints in support of their positions. Asking why something that was believed by all the faithful and is now either allowed or banned is not crazy, especially when there so many things now that do not appear in Catholic teaching until post 1965.

[@Charleston_Chew]

rewatch the video, what you’re saying is that the old church was more correct and sound on doctrine than the general prescriptions of the current pope and current bishops, while not all of them are right of course, this kind of thinking is essentially the thinking of the Protestant reformation and of current sedevecantist that deny Pope Francis

[@Reasonandfaith]

Part of the beauty of a living Magisterium is that it is their role to discern what is unchangeable doctrine and what is not.

[@consecratedsoul]

@@ReasonandfaithThe deposit of faith never changes, this heretical belief was already condemned by the Church.

[@ChrisLongSun]

@@Charleston_Chew when people say things like this, I genuinely have to wonder how much church history they know. What would you have done had you lived during the Arian crisis, where almost every bishop promoted Arian beliefs? I would find the “trads/fundementalists are just like Protestants” argument a lot more convincing if we didn’t have a pope who said Luther did not err on justification (not Lutherans today, but Luther himself, who was condemned at the Council of Trent). The trads/fundamentalists are getting called Protestant for pushing back against Catholic leaders who say Protestants correct? Give me a break.

[@FrJohnBrownSJ]

Without getting into any one example, isn't it true that the idea of a magisterium points us to seeing the current authority as the ones who have a right to bind today, just as the magisterium addressed the issues of their time? Can we not face issues today? Leaving intrinsic goods untouched, extrinsic ones seem to be best acquired by the ones living in the context. No? I'm not worried that something wasn't taught until 1965 since 1965 was not like 0065.

[@WC3isBetterThanReforged]

The talk about 401k being sinful reminds me of Ned Flanders not having home insurance because it was a form of gambling.

[@andyn2854]

One of my favorite quotes on this topic is paragraph 6 of Catechesi Tradendae: “Whatever be the level of his responsibility in the Church, every catechist must constantly endeavor to transmit by his teaching and behavior the teaching and life of Jesus. He will not seek to keep directed towards himself and his personal opinions and attitudes the attention and the consent of the mind and heart of the person he is catechizing. Above all, he will not try to inculcate his personal opinions and options as if they expressed Christ's teaching and the lessons of His life. Every catechist should be able to apply to himself the mysterious words of Jesus: "My teaching is not mine, but his who sent me."(13) St. Paul did this when he was dealing with a question of prime importance: "I received from the Lord what I also delivered to you."(14) What assiduous study of the word of God transmitted by the Church's magisterium, what profound familiarity with Christ and with the Father, what a spirit of prayer, what detachment from self must a catechist have in order that he can say: "My teaching is not mine!"”

[@David-xg4ku]

As someone with scrupulosity, thank you for this Trent!

[@Recusant_]

I was about to say the same thing. The amount of bad teaching out there from many Catholic channels is horrible

[@tonyl3762]

One can reject rigorism and still legitimately complain that the Church does not have enough discipline today when it comes to distribution and reception of Communion, same-sex couples baptizing children and attending mass with children, altar servers, blessings, and other instances of scandal or irreverence.

[@ErezElene]

@@tonyl3762 Exactly. And Trent agrees with all of that btw

[@carsonianthegreat4672]

@@ErezElenehe says he does, but then calls faithful non-radtrad Catholics like Dr. Jacob Imam “fundamentalists” for pointing it out with specific examples of ways Catholics can work to be more faithful to the spirit of the law

[@ErezElene]

@@carsonianthegreat4672 I doubt it's as simple as that. But if you watch all of Trent's videos, he's very even-handed and calls out both sides (in fact, most of his videos discuss the problems of more liberal Catholics). And anyway, my point still stands that Trent supports everything the original commenter listed. Peace ✌️

[@nickl120]

​@@carsonianthegreat4672The problem with Jacob Imam's statements is that he goes beyond just telling Catholics how to live holier lives--he claims things like investing in the stock market are actually sinful, despite having no authority to do so.

[@carsonianthegreat4672]

@@nickl120 ordinary lay Catholics are able to make statements as to what is sinful based on the authority of the Magisterium, of the fathers, and of scripture. The Second Vatican Council tells us this, and Trent himself does so in this very video.

[@serioussally1361]

This fundamentalism seems to be quite common among new reverts or converts from Protestantism. I have always liturgically rather conservative, was very leftist Catholic when younger, and by grace became accepting of the full teachings. In fact, it's my own rebellion on some issues when young that gives me some insight into why the teachings have wisdom. However, I still balk when I hear people saying it is evil that women to get the vote or always evil when women work outside the home. Clemency is a virtue the fundamentalists don't seem too worried about cultivating.

[@larstiranos]

I attend a traditional parish and have never met one person who holds those views.

[@Lucylou7070]

I agree that some of the converts in social media appear to be as you describe, but I've not many like that in daily life. Many reverts I've met are joyous to be home and seem more spiritual than those who never left. I'd like some research done about this - so far totally anecdotal based on personal experience.

[@serioussally1361]

@@larstiranos there's a huge difference between traditional Catholics and fundamentalist Catholics.

[@TedfromTorrance]

Before Vatican II we had 53 required days of fast, now only 2, maybe we need more spiritual discipline in accordance with a fundamentalist perspective!

[@femaleKCRoyalsFan]

ever since I started going to the traditional Latin mass in late September 2020, I have started to try to embrace the ember days which is four times a year based on the seasons. The first is the week after Ash Wednesday (It’s the Wednesday Friday and Saturday of the first week of lent). The next follows Pentecost, Wednesday, Friday and Saturday right after Pentecost. The next time is in September, following the exaltation of the Holy Cross feast. and the last is in December, following the feast of Saint Lucy.

[@observingyt6159]

Maybe I am not understanding but you can still fast whenever you want? Also in England and Wales we still have Friday fasting of abstaining from meat or other penances

[@TedfromTorrance]

Wonderful! We should as a church return to universal commemoration of Ember Days

[@TedfromTorrance]

Sadly the trajectory of the Magesterium is to permit laxity, instead the Church should return to fundamentals of rigor.

[@clelia8885]

Yes, the point of this being that the church wishes you to fast on your own, rather than fasting out of obligation. There are also many more things we can fast from than meat.

[@imwatchingyouiminyourwalls]

I like a lot of trad circles, but I ttink you're absolutely right on most of what you say here. You cannot forbid what the bishops permit. Certain chronically online laymen (myself included) simply cannot understand that their place is to obey.

[@jimcampbell7675]

Choosing Gabi After Hours and Jacob Imam as two examples of “rad trads?” Random, unprovoked, and off the mark.

[@AndrewTheMandrew531]

If you call what is not a sin as such, then that is wrong. I don’t care who said it.

[@custardoydamian]

Literally the best part of the video. Those guys (and their followers) are nothing more than future schismatics and should be called out by any sensible Catholic. I can sense the demonic influence in them and their words. Heavy stuff. Maybe we should even need a couple of exorcisms.

[@larstiranos]

Trent is starting internet beefs.

[@andresgomez4216]

i agree with you

[@AndrewDolder]

Okay, so therefore you must 1) stop dancing if you're single and 2) dismantle your 401k. I'm joking, but their positions are Pharisaical and worth calling out. That was the point.

[@fallenkingdom-zd8xh]

Love how in the thumbnail, Trent has the same facial expression as my guardian angel.

[@calledtorome]

😂

[@RealSeanithan]

Let me start by saying I think it's good for women to veil at Mass: my wife wears a veil, and my daughter is going to wear a veil. Let me finish by saying not only is it NOT a current required discipline of the Church, but even going by 1 Corinthians 11, verse 16 literally says it isn't mandatory, so even then, St. Paul was just making a pastoral call.

[@davido3026]

Excellent

[@eamonnclark7360]

I've benefited a lot from the work of Catholic Answers, but this one is not the best take. It's not a good principle to say that if it's not officially forbidden then it's "free" - it takes for granted the tradition more or less inaugurated by Alexander VII, solidified by Alexander VIII after Innocent XI, and turns it up to 11 (thanks in large part to Pius XII)... Popes should not be trying to replace the legitimate role of moral theologians. The role of the moralist is not simply to reiterate what is "settled" but to go beyond the bare minimum of what the Church has deigned to declare on and apply the science of morals to concrete cases and even to articulate better the principles whereby such solutions are sought. I am an avid and open opponent of some individuals alluded to in this presentation (and perhaps one of the leading scholars on the "NFP vs. contraception" discussion, having actually gotten my hands on the key texts in the Apostolic Penitentiary archives with a book on it coming soon), but given the paradigm of communications and theology these days you have to let people make arguments - if their argument is bad, show why. Don't just call them names... "Popesplainer," "Catholic Fundamentalist," etc. Actually do the hard work of showing why the argument is wrong or inconclusive.

[@bobsambo7543]

Well said.

[@JoshuaCrabb-dh5pu]

Thank you! It's like he's saying, "I don't want to deal with your valid arguments so I'm just going to call you a pharisee, schismatic, protestant. So that everyone can see how morally superior I am to you."

[@TedfromTorrance]

Chapel veils are beautiful and amazing!

[@AnaMT1985]

So what?

[@TedfromTorrance]

More women should wear them

[@RobertPatton-kz6lq]

We may just see them diminish the reverence until theres nothing and these types will still defend it

[@AndrewTheMandrew531]

I agree. I think more people should wear them. Though, I do not think it is a mortal sin to not wear them.

[@AnaMT1985]

@@TedfromTorrance your preference doesn’t change the fact that they are no longer required by the Church. It’s just an opinion of yours which is irrelevant. So what is your point?

[@RobertPatton-kz6lq]

I’m traditional and i’ve only ever been to one NO mass but i’ve never heard anyone say it’s grave sin to work outside the home as a mother. Just that it’s not ideal. And how is natural family planning not a basic distrust of God? I wanna hear the arguments. Traditionalists will only be advised to do NFP in certain circumstances and hardships.

[@EC-rd9ys]

NFP is just knowing how God created women's bodies to produce life. It can be used to get pregnant just as easily as it can be used to avoid it. The Church teaches that all married couples should be open to life, but you can use your God-given reason to make your own plans (with love of God as your primary motivator, of course) and still accept what God gives if it contradicts your plan. Like Paul says, "Do not refuse one another, except perhaps by agreement for a season, that you may devote yourselves to prayer." This time of prayer might be to strengthen your faith in preparation for a future child, for instance. Yes, if your own plans to avoid pregnancy are coming from the love of self over the love of God, then you've got a problem. But it doesn't have to be that way.

[@RobertPatton-kz6lq]

@@EC-rd9ys sounds like a weak new cope for birth control.

[@RossArlenTieken]

This is the first video I've seen by you that I have major qualms with. Just because bishops all participate in a practice does not make it an implicit moral teaching. It is perfectly possible that they have not given the matter proper consideration because the issue hasn't been fully explored--which is exactly what Imam is doing. He's exploring the moral weight of the financial system in light of the teachings of the Church throughout history. I have a hard time seeing how that is "catholic fundamentalism" by trying to set up an "internet magisterium" (great phrase by the way). Similarly, Gabiafterhours can sometimes be overbearing in his presentation, but he hedges what he says pretty carefully quite often. And it is not scandalous to say that a particular set of bishops have wacky ideas and we should look at the entire teaching authority of the Church over time to judge things carefully. That being said, I think this is a great conversation starter for these issues. Scrupulosity is a huge issue right now, but so is fideism. Blind obedience, as you have pointed out so often, is not what is expected, but mindful obedience. I say this with all the best intentions; your work is wonderful and I use many of your videos in my classes, but this one seemed to lack depth; you talk about a trend, which we all see, but use strange examples that don't actually fit the kind of attitudes you're talking about. Maybe I'm wrong, and I'd be interested in hearing more, but it just seemed shallower than usual in terms of argumentative strength.

[@Makeitliquidfast]

So then by Trent's thinking St Athenasius was wrong and Pope Liberius was right? I don't think so.