The Illrigger Revised Full Review | Nerd Immersion

[@spacemancoco]

This class is definitely for advanced players, not newbie friendly. That being said, it is EXTREMELY versatile. Lots of stuff to keep track of but man, you have so many options to play with that can be used in almost any type of gameplay scenario, even social and exploration. Also, "Gaol" is pronounced "Jail".

[@texgum833]

In case you didn't know Ted Gaol is a way to say Jail it originates from a Celtic word.

[@NerdImmersion]

Thank you!

[@rodneyg9746]

It is a super-complex, martial-focused anti-Paladin. I wouldn't let new players anywhere near it, and even moderately experienced players may find its abilities challenging to understand or use effectively. Once you understand it though, this class is powerful, and its subclasses fairly intuitive once you understand their underlying themes: The Architect of Ruin is a fun balance of Eldritch Knight and Arcane Trickster; The Painkiller is similar to a battle-field commander, such as the Battlemaster; The Hellspeaker is Hell's version of an anti-Bard; the Sanguine Knight blends the utility and support of Clerics and Druids; and the Shadowmasters are Hell's Assassins, or a Rogue in everything but name. At the end of the day, some DMs will not allow them at their table because of the power and complexity, or because of the evil-alignment lean, but this is an amazingly fun new class, and is the kind of new classes I know I want for DnD.

[@mesquitaboys7863]

Thank you for being a light in the darkness of this comment section! I cannot stand how many people just look at "woah so much feature" and then decide the class is overpowered. Have fun at your table my friend, and thank you for being the only sane one around!

[@richardgarrettjr4431]

Illrigger was indeed one of seven optional, alignment based paladin alternatives presented in the article "A plethora of paladins" in Dragon magazine #106 from 1986. (2e began in 1989) I do wonder if the originator meant for it to be "Illritter" - bad knight - and not "Illrigger" - bad person who rigs (sailor)?

[@Jimmy-p9n]

Funny that this is how languages sometimes evolve. In this case, not checking the meaning

[@Xynth25]

@@richardgarrettjr4431 Illritter actually solves all of my issues with the name amazingly enough. Sounds better, has an actual meaning, legitimately feels like something people would call a character in setting...

[@TimothyMReynolds]

Ill Ritter makes more sense.

[@matiasnl]

Illrigger sounds cooler to me, Illritter just makes me think of Mausritter! Too cute!

[@deathfury4039]

It means “One who plans ill”

[@SouvenirSpices]

MCDM always goes into great detail on all their stuff, which is a blessing and a curse at times

[@Xynth25]

It's MAD as heck, but it's pretty cool that you can play the "Rogue" subclass while using weapons like Greatswords and Glaives and still get full value. Opens some very fun character designs.

[@James-kv3ll]

Technically speaking, with the new Draw/Stow rules in the 2024 PHB you can use a Greatsword alongside a dagger on your Rogue if you got Extra Attack from another class.

[@Xynth25]

@James-kv3ll Sure, but at that point you've sunk 5 levels into something like Fighter and drastically delayed your Rogue progression, and then you're gambling on hitting with the Dagger to trigger Sneak Attack. It's just a mess, while this subclass wraps it all in a nice, neat package. Unfortunately needing 13 Str for Heavy melee weapons makes it more MAD than it's worth, even with the fighting style that lets you use Cha for hit and damage but maybe someday with a good set of rolled stats...

[@James-kv3ll]

@ What are you talking about? A STR focussed Barbarian with 14 DEX (Medium Armor) can multi class into Rogue after Level 5 and hit their Sneak Attack every turn with a Reckless Attack. Throw on the Berserker bonus damage and your damage reaches levels a pure rogue could only dream of at that level. Rogue progression? What you loose from Rogue by having 5 levels in an objectively stronger combat class more than makes up for that.

[@Xynth25]

@@James-kv3ll If you're looking at this subclass, the Rogue-themed subclass, I assume that is the party archetype you want to play. You are instead taking 5 levels of Barbarian. You can play a sneaky Barbarian but that's a completely different character outside of combat. You're throwing out a white room build that will take months of irl playing to get back to Rogue 2.

[@James-kv3ll]

@ If you want to play a sneaky rogue why would you use a Greatsword? That doesn’t make any sense outside of a white room. Also, not all builds are meant to start at Level 1 or Level 3. Some campaigns start at higher levels and sometimes your character dies when the party is around level 7 or 8 and you need a replacement. Don’t discount the build because it doesn’t do what you want at level 1. But if you really want to use a Greatsword on your rogue at low Levels then reflavor a Shortsword. Flavor is free and doesn’t restrict you. Or, if you’re gonna homebrew anyway, homebrew in an Origin Feat with your DM that just applies the Finesse property to 1 weapon of your choice and gives you proficiency with that weapon. Boom, Rogue with a GS at Level 1. You’d still need 13 STR to wield it without disadvantage but that’s a minor cost unless you wanted to invest into WIS, INT, or CHR.

[@sammcgurran8142]

I played a Hellspeaker Illrigger in RotFM and had a blast, it felt more in line with a paladin’s complexity than a wizards. People seem to be mistaking options for complexity, and reading a class for playing it. Playing a spellcaster in 5e is already vastly more complicated than a martial class, the Illrigger sits well on that spectrum. It’s also not trying to be a core class, it’s fine that it’s got a specific theme, and caters to those who want to play a hellknight/rogue /bard /fighter, it’s not for every table, it’s for those who want it.

[@sykune]

I am surprised that it does not play similar to a bard of some sort. Consider hellspeaker is meant to be the bardic equivalent

[@sammcgurran8142]

@ I didn’t enjoy my experience with 5e’s bard, whereas this is still first and foremost a hellknight, Hellspeaker is just more of a Dread Pirate Robert than Darth Vader.

[@davidarmstrong1617]

Back in those days, all Paladins had to be Lawful Good, but in Dragon magazine #106, there was an alternative Paladin offered for every alignment. Nowadays, alignment almost nothing mechanically (we don't even use it in my campaigns) and Paladins are just bound to their oaths.

[@alexandercross9081]

I have a character who absolutely would have been an Illrigger if I had known about it before I made him. Now I must convert him.

[@LordMorin]

Word of Note: MSomebody created the Illrigger mod for Baldur's Gate 3. Just thought I'd let peeps know. :)

[@RisenPhoenix69]

After Playing BG3 with the Illrigger class mod, its SOOOO much easier to understand and manage resources

[@Xynth25]

Ngl even knowing it's a legacy term I hate Illrigger so much lol.

[@LandonTheDM]

Nickname it Hell Knight or Infernal Knight or something

[@DavidVincent-f5l]

So a whole new conversation. Illriger's seal's are like a combo of a Warlocks pact boon and the Clerics And Paladins celestial boons. Could we still keep hunters mark and hex mark as traditional spells for everyone else. But for Rangers and Warlocks make like a x number per day free casting.

[@OMEGAJOENOVA]

Please do a full review on the new Lord of the Rings classes. Thank you in advance.

[@JackOfHearts42]

My goodness this is expansive for just 1 class!

[@AndyReichert0]

MtG/DnD crossover we expect: MtG-themed DnD book MtG/DnD crossover we expect: DnD-themed MtG cards MtG/DnD crossover we didn't expect: DnD class so complex it's its own MtG block

[@DavidVincent-f5l]

When I heard Illriger. I was thinking of a sword and board spell sword character. Someone with poison and plague abilities. The seal mark, hunters mark, and hex mark. They all could be concentration less by the fact of tieing power being drawn from the targets spiritual or magical powers. The twentieth level feature. Instead of fifty foot sphere, a fifty foot column.

[@MagiofAsura]

Not every campaign has a place for a straight up Hellknight serving archdevils. How would you guys re-flavor this class?

[@3of6mylove]

Someone who harnesses hellish powers to fight against hellish powers? You know, fight fire with fire!

[@kozmayhem7520]

I’ve been playing illrigger hellspeaaker for about a month-ish now and I’ll say it’s not as hard as it’s seems, especially at lower levels as long as you understand what your abilities are and how/when to use them. One good benefit that the class brings, is early level don’t mechanically feel slow or boring there’s always something to do on your turn.

[@timothyhanna6304]

Gotta agree this is a lot. Feels overpowered, but I’d love to canabalize the seal feature into an item or feat. Thanks Ted.

[@3of6mylove]

It only feels overpowered because it has lots of features, but even together those features never actually become overpowered, or overshadow the other classes.

[@ibervang]

Bedevil seems alright if you got casters that uses spells with saves. Or just class abilities. Maybe for a dex build, so you have a higher chance of having a turn before the other players

[@popularopinion1]

This is one of those classes where if you only have 2 PCs, this one can do a lot of the heavy lifting

[@kozmayhem7520]

Hellspeaker and painkiller are the standouts for my play style but a dip for shadow master is interesting for martial characters. Advantage on your first attack and a number of d4 equal to your proficiency not class level can add up quick. P

[@raymondharnack4160]

Having double haste will be fun

[@ibervang]

The one so a target takes proficiency damage each time it takes damage. That should be at least 5 damage, by the time you get it.

[@darkestumbreon]

My UA Pyromancer Sorcerer is happy to have a few new spells at least

[@jackdavis978]

Can I request a painkiller and/or architect of ruin build soon? Im thinking about making one for an upcoming campaign and would love an experts opinion! :)

[@tumbleweedtodd]

I thought the name sounded familiar. Thanks for sharing the info 😊

[@paulpower9959]

Iron Gaol is Iron Jail, it’s just the Irish spelling

[@vengeful_lowky653]

If you take 7 lvls in Hellspeaker,1 lvl rogue, and 3 lvls redemption paladin plus what ever lvls to have a 5 charisma and a 6 proficiency bonus you can make a persuation or deception check of 49 without even needing to roll a d20 basically!!!

[@chrisg8989]

This is why you shouldn't allow multiclass with 3rd party content. It wasn't designed with Multiclass implications.

[@ミミッキュ-q9t]

​​@@chrisg8989Then design it to be. Multiclassing is official rule in 2024, so not players fault?

[@DTKirby.]

This wasn't designed as a 2024 class though​@@ミミッキュ-q9t

[@Gorjiba]

@@ミミッキュ-q9tdesign the class to be more bland so it works with multi-classing? That’s my biggest gripe with multi-classing, it limits the cool abilities a class can have because someone will multi-class and abuse it.

[@chuckallerston9997]

Imagine if you multiclassed bloodhunter and illrigger

[@NerdImmersion]

@@chuckallerston9997 resource management, the class

[@darthmalicex4118]

“No mom, I promise D&D isn’t satanic!” *Pushes Illirigger under the rug*

[@pibb2474]

This feels like a perfect example of a horse designed by committee. It's so BLOATED. It's all over the place, could stand to be streamlined at the very least, and would greatly benefit from being designed by a single person with a clear, singular vision. --Why does the life transfer feature have to have a separate pool of dice? It could have easily just reused the Interdict Dice. --Why is the Channel Divinity clone feature listed in the main class when it's going to be different for each subclass? --Why are the 7th level features in each subclass presented as Interdict Boons? They could've just as easily just been regular features. --Why is the 17th or 18th (can't remember) level base class feature somewhere between the monk feature to shed their mortal coil and a full blown level 20 paladin transformation? Why is that then followed up by a Divine Intervention-esque capstone, complete with even more unnecessary options? I cannot stand this class as presented, and that's sad, because I think the core concept of "antipaladin/warlock hybrid with a fluid Hunter's Mark" is actually quite solid. Just wasted potential as is, though.

[@mesquitaboys7863]

To reply to a few of your points (as someone who quite likes the Illrigger) - The life transfer feature is meant to be a flip of the "Lay on Hands" Paladin feature. As such, it uses a separate resource, like Lay On Hands. Seals are meant to be the Illrigger's version of spell slots for smites, so rolling them into the same resource would break that synchronicity. - The channel divinity follows the way it is listed in 5e. In 5e, the class lists "Channel Divinity" and then the subclasses grant the options. - The level 7 features are listed as Interdict Boons because they affect/use Seals, similarly to every other Interdict Boon. - The Captstone and 17th level feature are, once again, meant to be opposites to the Paladin Capstone. Paladin's get a transformation at high levels, ergo, so do Illriggers. The actualy capstone is just a flashy combat ability. While I understand that having options might make the class seem "cluttered", I think you're simply misunderstanding some things. Options aren't bad, and the class is presented in the same format and syntax as every other 5e class.

[@LuxTheSlav]

This thing is so unbelievably cluttered. It's completely overpowered if you manage to remember everything. Character sheet, more like character dossier.

[@minikawildflower]

This looks cool, but is too complex for me to play. I'd enjoy seeing pros play it in a show like D20/CR/others

[@chrisg8989]

I wouldn't call them pros... actors? Sure. The Majority of the cast are terrible at combat.

[@nikcantsnipe]

D20? Maybe. Most of CR are really bad with rules and mechanics. They're either average or below.

[@minikawildflower]

@ yeah I guess I don’t mean pro players, more people who will make cool scenes out of the mechanics. But this might be too much for them too

[@vengeful_lowky653]

Molochs blessing isnt expertise, the wording doubles it. the purple dragon knight has a lvl 7 ability that works the same. this stacks on top of expertise by the wording.

[@James-kv3ll]

This could have just been a really fleshed out Paladin subclass. - Level 3: Illriger Spells - Level 3: Baleful Interdict - Level 7: Interdiction - Level 7: Invoke Hell (2 CD options) - Level 15: Infernal Majesty - Level 20: Master of Hell Just need to tweak some of these features to work without the other (unnecessary) features.

[@AwesomeWookiee]

No it wouldn't, because the Illrigger isn't about supporting your allies and casting holy spells. Aura of Protection would make no sense on an Illrigger, and this has way more personality.

[@James-kv3ll]

@ You don’t have to cast holy spells on Paladin though. Look at Oathbreaker. Also, flavor is free. Plus your “personality” is just a Paladin sworn to serve a Devil. You’re a CHR based martial character that also uses magic, has a Hell themed channel divinity feature, a kay on hands feature that also does damage, and a special high level form like all Paladin subclasses. But let’s be honest, your actual personality is “Everything you do I can do better” because this thing is just objectively stronger than every other martial class in the game. That’s why people like it. It’s not like a Knight that serves hell isn’t something we don’t have in DnD already. Pop a few levels into Fighter or Blood Hunter and then go Fiend Warlock.

[@Tommyd1013]

Want to start out by saying love the content and the channel. But onto the subject matter. I will not be allowing this at my table. This was someone’s attempt to take all their favorite abilities/spells and cram them into one class. Then over complicating it by giving it a bunch of resources to track to make it seem less op. Every subclass is an attempt to have another class as your subclass. I see nothing about this class that makes me want to play it or allow it in my games.

[@James-kv3ll]

It’s the most derivative thing I’d seen on DnD beyond with the exception of the blood magic healer subclass.

[@topherrobeson4446]

Not being grandfathered into Weapon Mastery since its pre 2024 design really feels bad Rules as written you must Multiclass, take a general feat, or get your DM to agree to give you Weapon Mastery

[@sykune]

I would not grant this thing weapon mastery unless you gave pact of the blade weapon mastery as well.

[@chrisg8989]

100% does not need Weapon Masteries. It already has a ton of things to keep track of.

[@topherrobeson4446]

@@chrisg8989 that's fair, im just spoiled now and want weapon masteries on everything from blade warlocks to war clerics

[@topherrobeson4446]

@@sykune and war clerics. Both blade pact and war clerics had them in playtest

[@antoinewilliams1358]

Hmm... No thanks, buuuut.. since they're going down the "evil class" road, any chance of there being a shadow blade hidding in there, im tired of rogues being out combated by druids and bards

[@Gentskie]

How does Illmaker sound guys?

[@danielcraddock2592]

The Ill-Rigger is a really cool idea and concept. Most may see it as complicated though. However as a content creator for a new up and coming Ttrpg called Chaotic Chronicles, I created a new class to compete with this one in the future. 😊

[@James-kv3ll]

“I want a class that does what all the other classes do and is the best class” Sure a middle schooler probably said that. But the creator of this class must have as well. Tbh it’s probably the most derivative overly complicated thing I’ve seen with a price tag on DnD beyond. The entire class is just “oh it’s like this other thing”. I understand being original is hard but it really just feels like a “mashed together” class. But I do like the idea of using Blood Magic to heal, so that subclass feels like a tiny bit of unique design within a pile of copy-paste.

[@sykune]

It reminds me of the the grim hollow bard college of adventurers subclass that allows you to have lesser versions of each base class main thing. But while that is balance fir the most part illrigger take every class and says anything you can do I can do better.

[@mesquitaboys7863]

It's literally invoking things from the history of dnd, being a revisting of a class/subclass from the old Dragon Magazines. This class is simply not better than the Paladin, or any spellcaster. There's a lot going on, but it isn't OVERPOWERED. Have you played the class? Have you run numbers? Or are you just looking at all the features and thinking "wow, this must mean it's the bestest class in the world!" I pray you never play a monk.

[@James-kv3ll]

@ I love Monk. It has strengths and weaknesses but it all fits together nicely when played as intended. The only issue I have with it is multi classing because for how restrictive the Martial Arts feature is. The Illrigger on the other hand, feels like an active attempt to make something powerful first and foremost. Take Blood Price for example. It’s a completely unnecessary semi-clone of Indomitable that should be either a subclass feature or not be in the class at all. Oh and let’s not forget that this thing can make 4 Greatsword attacks in 1 turn consistently without any subclass just by using two of its level 13 Interdict Boons. All while having +4 to its AC and double movement speed. And an insane amount of Temp HP generation every turn. Oh are you low on health? Here, do 10d10 to the enemy and heal for the same amount as an action. Are you fighting an Army? Just casually open a rift to Hell and obliterate the army. You like Misty Step? Well here’s a better version of Misty Step that you can use up to 7 times every short rest. On and on and on. This class was designed to be very powerful. That’s the point. It wasn’t to make something unique, because let’s be honest we all think “oh this is Just Warlock + Paladin + Bloodhunter”.

[@mesquitaboys7863]

@@James-kv3ll The class is designed to mimic the "Illrigger", an alternative paladin from like 2e. It very obviously is not based off of the Bloodhunter. It is not stronger than a Paladin, or any full spellcaster. That "consistent 4 attacks" requires 2 of your (at that level) 3 boons to work, and only works if you dedicate 2 seals and your bonus action to do it. At 20th level, that means you can do it a total of ... 3 times per short rest! That's your smoking gun? Or is that "better misty step", which eats into the same resource you're using for all that "overpowered" stuff? That "casually kills army" feature is at 20th level. SPELLCASTERS HAVE WISH! This is the level where druids have infinite health, and wizards can just say "I wish that those guys werent alive" and obliterate a nation. Why do you think the Illrigger is overpowered for having a 1/LR aoe? You are, by no uncertain measure, simply uniformed. You don't know the history, so you replace it with your own. You don't understand power levels or resources, so you make up your own scenarios. Play the class, read the book, or just shut up.

[@3of6mylove]

​@@mesquitaboys7863Well said. These folks don't know what they're talking about.

[@tabletopgamingwithwolfphototec]

📝 *IF TED IS SURPRISED AND SAYS WOW THAT IS POWERFUL , THAT FEATURE IS ACTUALLY OVER POWERED.* *AN IF TED THINKS A CLASS IS OVERPOWERED , THAT CLASS IS ABSOLUTELY BUSTED ( AN SHOULD BE AUTO BANNED FROM TABLES ).* 📝 This is because ted thinks everything is slightly weaker than it actually is. An the reason for that is because all his groups range from 2 players to 3 players. An Dungeons and Dragons is balanced around 4 to 5 players.

[@s.p.1434]

This class is quite literally everything I despise about homebrew content; its overly complex for absolutely no reason, all its class features are essentially mechanics that already exist "but better!", its core roleplaying scope is incredibly limited and would make way more sense as a paladin subclass (or possibly two subclasses), many of its low level abilities are essentially screaming "pick me!" as ways for multiclass splashing to combine too well with other classes or are all basically ways to just make common multiclass gish combos be all under one thematically cliche as hell [boring] chasis that only really edgelords or optimizers who don't care about roleplaying will actually want, and it all once again makes me truly question just how much of the player base either doesn't understand the concept of reflavoring existing spells/abilities or the actual spirit of what makes dnd 5e different from other hyperspecific crunch focused games like pathfinder, anima, dnd 3.5, or shadowrun.

[@DrgnDrake]

I thought the anti-paladin was the Blackguard?

[@sykune]

It is this is closer to the Narzugons which are infernal knights. Look them up

[@DrAndrewJBlack]

FTA

[@TommyTheCat83]

This is for someone with main character syndrome. So overpowered. It's like, I want to be a rogue-paladin-warlock-sorcerer, thankyou.

[@sykune]

A well built warlock or eldritch knight could still give it run for its money. The key to its power is deciding what build you want to go with as you said it falls into I want to be rogue,paladin,warlock,sorcerer so if you don't focus your build its garbage

[@jerrywhoomst1116]

On top of that its explicitly designed to be evil.

[@LetsDelve]

Just keeping track of everything this class offers is going to slow down combat. It feels over powered, over complicated, and over cooked.

[@TaylorAP13]

Honestly, this class is really cool, fun, and narratively thematic. However, it is poorly designed, overly complicated, lacks any mechanical theme, and seems to step on the toes of about 6 different classes. Imo it doesn't have any unique mechanics, but a bunch of Devil themed mechanics from many other classes. Its base class is something of a Warlock (maybe a pinch of Bloodhunter too). Its subclasses are basically a Paladin, Rogue, Cleric, Fighter (Eldritch Knight), and Bard. I don't really have an issue with any of the abilities themselves, except for the extreme amount of bloat. However, there are a lot of abilities (particularly at level 3) that should be level 11+. And some, like Painkiller's Deathstrike is just a better version of the Legacy Assassin. I mean, 6 times a day I can auto-crit and double the damage? Just cause? And just to use this as an example of bad design, this ability not only has a limited number of uses based on prof. bonus, but also burns a seal. So this ability requires you to track 2 resources. Cool idea, but imo the actual design of this is pretty bad. I feel like... great WotC is allowing more classes and including 3rd parties, but maybe lets be a bit more reasonable with what is included. Overall, would allow it at my table, but would probably make some tweaks on the OPness of some abilities (or scale them over time so they aren't insane at level 3).

[@oecw124]

A class based on paladin/warlock features but blatantly demonic. Saved you 53 min

[@antoinewilliams1358]

A better assassin subclass than the assassin subclass. I feel like everytime they create rogue like sublasses for classes other than the rogue that they robbes the assassin. This is perfect for a big bad for a campaign adding some versatility to the anti paladin concept or having that super class that can go toe to toe with multiple classes. I wouldnt even let someone plat this in an evil campaign unless every player was one of these lol

[@sykune]

I will allow it at my table however, I may grant other players homebrew items or an extra magic item so the player with the illrigger does not steal the show.

[@antoinewilliams1358]

@sykune The potential for abuse is too high. I mean, what else could a character with such destructive power do but derail any campaign not built on the domination of anything they come across. My biggest problem is that the class is unbalanced to the point that it eliminates the need to choose anything but the Illrigger, just like playing anything but a Jedi in star wars games. Sure you could play a pilot or scoundrel but Jedi can do their jobs better than they can on top of all the Jedi powers. I've grown to like the 5th edition system but it feels like the only way to construct a solid character concept is through unorthodox methods that few would approve of unless it's in the books..what are your thoughts

[@sykune]

@@antoinewilliams1358 I do agree with your jedi comparison, specifically star wars galaxies mmo was just like that. This seems like warlock/paladin with extra steps, I am a avid warlock player for its customization and rp potential. I want to see how the illrigger will play with other classes before I will make a final decision. Anymore multiclassing is the way to go when it comes to building conceptual characters. But 2024 revised classes may change that as I believe the epic boons will change people to going one class all the way for the epic boon. Multiclassing will have to be planned out better.

[@antoinewilliams1358]

@sykune I like to play combat rogues. In 3.5 I played a rogue with the shadow dancer prestige class.. I tried to convert the character when the 5th edition rules hit.. I found that to get the character close to what he was, I had to start with rogue assassin, multiclass into monk way of the shadow, and again into ranger gloom stalker because the assassin subclass offers nothing after 5 levels. I ended up with a hell of a ninja.. that was cool but altered the vision I had completely and although the switch between classes went hand in hand with the events that developed the character, the extra class features felt like I was doing something wrong.. with the 2024 edition, I can make a more solid version of the character with the monk with a few cosmetic changes but it is lacking a few key features that I'm not willing to multiclass to get with the new changes to the monk. Point is, they took the concept for the assassin and speed it amongst every class once again shitting on anything stealth inspired leading to the urge to homebrew.. when you see classes like the Illrigger, the balancing issues with giving the rogue a second attack or progressing like a ranger, gaining the subclass skill progression and abilities that work in tandem with the assassin's 3rd level abilities while maintaining sneak attack progression no longer feels unbalanced..

[@sykune]

@antoinewilliams1358 yeah but if you remember the assassin was hardly anything in 3.5 basically another varient of arcane trickster with death attack. And hide in plain sight. And it was a prestige class, so in 5e it had very little that made it unique except it's death attack/assinate. I do agree with you with they did spread what makes decent across multiclasses. You said you played a shadowdancer and the shadow monks flavor text says they can also be called a shadowdancer. Now the power issue of illrigger will truely appear in a multiclass I think. Imagine shadow master with the old assassin rogues assinate.

[@James-kv3ll]

Still can’t get over how this costs 15$ but Bloodhunter is free. One was made by the most famous VA on the planet and probably the most influential DM in the community. One was made by someone I only just heard about as a casual player.

[@MagiofAsura]

You being a casual player shows why you don't know of Matt Coville and his reputation.

[@James-kv3ll]

@ That’s the point tho. The thing created by someone everyone knows is free. The thing created by someone only a niche community know is 15$. That’s backwards, and doesn’t make any sense. It just makes the creator of the Illriger look greedy. If Matt Mercer can release a class that is now really popular for free, why couldn’t they?

[@mesquitaboys7863]

@@James-kv3ll Its okay if you dont understand how business works, you can just say that. If you feel entitled to someone elses work, just put that plainly.

[@James-kv3ll]

@ Triggered

[@TimothyMReynolds]

This class is OP and does seem like a lot to manage. Design balance is not one of Matt Colville’s strong suits. Invoke Hell = Channel Divinity Also: “gaol” is pronounced like “jail”, as it is an archaic form of the word.

[@Dracoaurion]

A better evil paladin name is Dark Knight. Its just better in all ways.