The Illusion of Matter with special guest, Bernardo Kastrup

Is everything just a figment of our imagination?
Join renowned author Deepak Chopra and philosopher ‪@bernardokastrup‬ as they delve into the nature of reality, questioning materialism and exploring the power of consciousness. This eye-opening conversation will challenge your assumptions about the universe and leave you pondering the true nature of existence.
Bernardo Kastrup's work has been leading the modern renaissance of metaphysical idealism, the notion that reality is essentially mental. He has a Ph.D. in philosophy (ontology, philosophy of mind) and another Ph.D. in computer engineering (reconfigurable computing, artificial intelligence). As a scientist, Bernardo has worked for the European Organization for Nuclear Research (CERN) and the Philips Research Laboratories (where the 'Casimir Effect' of Quantum Field Theory was discovered). Formulated in detail in many academic papers and books, his ideas have been featured on 'Scientific American,' the 'Institute of Art and Ideas,' the 'Blog of the American Philosophical Association' and 'Big Think,' among others.
www.bernardoka...
www.scientific...
Key topics:
🌀The limitations of materialism and why it fails to explain consciousness.
🌀Scientific evidence supporting the primacy of consciousness.
🌀Is the universe a product of mind?
🌀Debating the views of other prominent scientists on reality.
🌀Unveiling the true potential of your mind.
#Materialism #Idealism #DeepakChopra #BernardoKastrup #Consciousness #reality #podcast #scienceandspirituality #mindbodyconnection
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*My new book, #DigitalDharma is now available at your favorite book retailer or at amzn.to/3UlOJMn
*As an amazon affiliate, I may earn from qualifying purchases

[@DaveKesler]

Two of my very favorite humans. Beautiful discussion

[@gijszegers5201]

Really like the way Bernardo explains the irrational theory behind materialism for us to understand. And you guys are great together, good chemistry 😊

[@clivejenkins4033]

Another masterpiece from Dr bernardo kastrup, superb 💯👌

[@maryammajdiyazdi2344]

What a conversion!!Two of my favorite people!! Thank you so much for dissecting it such a profound way .I follow both of you. Love you both🙏

[@samrowbotham8914]

Since asking Bernardo to appear on Evivta Ochell's [odcast about ten years ago Bernardo has gobe on to greater things and is now an International star. Long may he continue.

[@joemcfatter1170]

I can credit Bernardo for really opening my mind, several years ago, as I had been searching for the "link" between Buddha's "all is mind" to science. Today I believe there is behind all of "it" the universal consciousness (UC). We will never understand it, but I do believe that everything going on in the universe(s) is just this consciousness self-fulfilling its own experience engine. What we think, what we do, and every other sentient and non-sentient things exist to feed experience into the UC's engine. Our mathematics emerge from our own human interpretation of the physical, the physical arises from our senses "looking," but there are likely other "maths" and "views" - probably infinitely - that also provide interpretations for "the others." The greatest point I take away is that we have no reason to view the UC as a god to be worshipped. We can just rest knowing we are fully "at one" with the UC. Furthermore, such "hard questions" as the cosmological constant, et al, I think are just artifacts of our own math, driven by how we create the universe we observe. I feel sure there are other universes that have their own "constants" arising from the local minds of those universes. I continue to wonder, however, how other Earthly biological species observe, and what universes they see? Maybe one day we can figure out how to "mind meld" with our pets.

[@joanabensby8472]

They are extraordinary beings opening the eyes of our cientific world. As a Espiritist , i would explain it in a very simple way, just using my own experience and intuition. But, iam not a cientist, not an intelectual, just an ordinary brasilian lady that have extra sensorial experiences ... thank you guys for sharing it with us!😊

[@markshaw153]

@joana you are awesome

[@johnlucas3834]

Thank you for this truly enlightening conversation with respect to Schopenhauer reminds me of Jesus’ comment at verse 3 of the Gospel of Thomas: “ If those who lead you say to you,’See the Kingdom is in the sky,’ then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, ‘It is in the sea,’ then the fish will precede you. Rather, the Kingdom is inside of you, and it is outside of you. When you come to know yourself, then you will become known, and you will realize that it is you who are the sons of the living father. But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty and it is you who are that poverty.”

[@marcussampaio9535]

East and west, beautifully get together 👏👏👏

[@saiyidhassanali8059]

Cliche.

[@sadafpouriliyaei9068]

Thanks so much Deepak and Bernardo for sharing this beautiful deep conversation with all of us 🙏 and thanks for speaking so clearly

[@maddywilcox9012]

Ohhh MMM GGG Bernardo and Deepak ... Can i believe my eyes... Ohhh bless uz both cant wait , How can this be anything but... YeeeHaaahhh...

[@michelethiebaud436]

I love that....like we are there...together always...tous pour 1 et 1 pour tous.Connais toi toi même....était un très bon livre ...yes

[@protoform_]

Amazing. Two of my favorite people to listen to 🙌

[@lindaaciman6871]

Thank you…just what I needed in my present state of confusion😅. Love you both ♥️

[@stephenpalmer-zh9dq]

more to reality than what appears yes i agree - appearances are deceptive

[@sanjaydwivedi4003]

awewsome conversation

[@mskathayat7794]

great conversation!

[@roryoconnor861]

Excellent discussion. Thanks

[@brendafosmire6519]

Very reachable discussion. Thank you

[@stringsseeds]

In Buddhism, matter is taught to consist of 5+5, where first 5 are eye, ear, nose, tongue, and body and the other 5 are their objects of color-form, sound, smell, taste, and touch. Consciousness of these fives are the union through "contact". For example "contact" of the union of three eye, color-form, and consciousness of eye hence our ability to see. Basically, what we think there's an apple, the apple doesn't exist as an independent object as Yogacara Buddhism says there is no object outside of our consciousness. An apple exists only as "an object" consisting of the 5+5. A metaverse or online gaming example will illustrate the theory. In a metaverse, if we could through technology achieve all 5 senses, the apple in there doesn't exist but it exists only in the 5+5 attributes. So when a player tastes the apple, he is tasting the "taste information" of the apple as there's really no apple in the metaverse. The corresponding 1 of 5 of the "taste information" which is thought to be "tounge" also does not exist as matter also in a metaverse. "Tongue" in metaverse reality is a program code consisting of the "taste information". When the program code is activated where the player feel the taste it's called "contact". Yogacara Buddhism calls the “tongue" Seeds, which are strings in string theory. Seeds in Yogacara Buddhism arise from 12 Ayatanas which is the universal hologram. We should proceed with detail constructs and not staying at abstract concepts.

[@katherinehahn6242]

Beautiful!

[@manjarichatterji9349]

This may be the single most important and clear explanation of "reality"

[@N0r8]

See Bernardo instant like

[@saiyidhassanali8059]

What experiments is Bernardo referring to around 12:30? What is the 2015 experiment? What is the 2018 experiment?

[@chrisallard1819]

Fantastic- many thanks

[@bob-c702]

Amazing ❤❤

[@jbricklin1]

"'Matter,' as something behind physical phenomena," is a mere "postulate". William James, 1890

[@MaartendeJager]

Consciousness over mind over matter

[@jamesritter4813]

I've been thinking alot about the ancient symbol of the flower of life. That symbol to me looks almost like a quantum particle. If the double slit experiment shows that it exsit in all postions until measured they explain it as a little fuzzy cloud of possibilities. Well take a good look at that symbol the flower of life. It looks like A fuzzy cloud or a bunch of round circles. Then when it's measured we're seeing 1 round spot of that symbol. I'm sorry if this sounds like random babble but I ask you to look into the flower of life and what physicist propose what a particle on the qauntum scale looks like

[@ibnarabielhatti6513]

Brillant

[@abdulsahak5640]

Consciousness is not matter therefore it can not be derivative of matter. consciousness is the ground of being

[@bradmodd7856]

Consciousness IS matter according to Kastrup, everything is consciousness to him

[@silentbullet2023]

The closing was a bit rude.

[@shawns0762]

Here is the explanation for dark matter/galaxy rotation curves - Wherever there is an astronomical quantity of mass the known, fundamental phenomenon of dilation (sometimes called gamma or y) will occur. Mass that is dilated is smeared through spacetime relative to an outside observer. It's the phenomenon behind the phrase "mass becomes infinite at the speed of light". Time dilation is just one aspect of dilation, it's not just time that gets dilated. A 2 axis graph illustrates the squared nature of the phenomenon, dilation increases at an exponential rate the closer you get to the speed of light. Dilation will occur wherever there is an astronomical quantity of mass because high mass means high momentum. This includes the centers of very high mass stars and the overwhelming majority of galaxy centers. It can be inferred mathematically that the mass at the center of our own galaxy must be dilated. This means that there is no valid XYZ coordinate we can attribute to it, you can't point your finger at something that is smeared through spacetime. More precisely, everywhere you point is equally valid. In other words that mass is all around us. Dilation does not occur in galaxies with low mass centers because they do not have enough mass to achieve relativistic velocities. It has recently been confirmed in 6 very low mass galaxies including NGC 1052-DF2 and DF4 to have no dark matter. In other words they have normal rotation rates. This also explains why all binary stars are normal rotation rates, not 3 times normal.

[@mikeolsze6776]

As a species, we will not be facilitated as acknowledging such deep & more complex rationales until we faithfully endeavor & more so achieve what has been designated as being Wholistic systematizations. Having endeavored many years attempting to form an arrangement of experiences, informations, matters, energies, phenomena & technologies as potentiating a realized, wholistic systematization, one will eventually come to realize, that it's really not about physicality, mathematics or the ones & zeros. In my humble opinion, the reason that our species as a whole has not come to potentiate such a consciousness & awareness, is attributable to not enough of us have been allowed to devote a sufficient amount of time & resources, to potentiate & manifest, the in & of itself, that continually & continuously potentiates & sustains itself. Which is an endeavorment, as creating a (factitious) lifeform.

[@fluffykitties9020]

12:48 What happened in 2018 ?

[@saiyidhassanali8059]

Bump.

[@brooksroscoe2699]

Perhaps Aspect et al. proof of Bell's Theorem? (Nobel in 2022)

[@robertcooper8939]

When you experience sumadhi you stop questioning (deepak) because you are the answer

[@martindutton1645]

Interesting but as usual with these discussions the important influences of hormones, the libidinal life and the desire for beauty and ecstasy aren’t mentioned

[@sajid279]

The end of the discussion just made chopra give up on his hallucination/siddhi of becoming someone other than himself

[@theophrastusbomblastus821]

Matter is not an illusion, our perception of it is an illusion. Matter exists, we just don't know what it is. Perception being an illusion does not exclude the possibility of objective reality. The word illusion implies the concept of unreal, of not being real or having no objective existence. Within the context of consciousness debate I think many confuse the word illusion with hallucination, which we know can be paradoxical, ie synaesthesia. As Anil Seth said, "Perception is controlled hallucination and hallucination is uncontrolled perception." I just don't think an unholy union between solipsism and "universal mind" is the right path towards the great mystery. Yes measurement disturbs the system, perception is measurement etc but these ideas don't require the necessity of the observer. Egocentric forces in the minds of observers led to that assumption. When we use the common adage, "A watched pot never boils." Physics tells us the opposite is true, that if unwatched the pot never boils, there is no pot, this is not a pipe. But the physics does not tell us this, it is the physicists telling us this. The reality may be that an unwatched pot still boils, but if it is watched the rate of temperature change may be altered by the watching and by our expectation.

[@iddo016]

For an introductory guide to consciousness and reality see ‘Finding Consciousness Within - The Essence Of Being’ by I A Gill

[@juancarlosv5136]

Mystic and magical covert stuff

[@gireeshneroth7127]

The buck stops with the mind.

[@siestabluell8374]

"We are mistaking appearances for the thing in itself." Apropos political campaigns. The electorate is left trying to pull results out of the promises.

[@sonnycorbi4316]

The Benign Inquisition - I’m going to listen to this again - (A historical moment)

[@Seekthetruth3000]

According to Einstein, matter is energy vibrating at a low frequency.

[@bradmodd7856]

Energy? Spirit, mind, forces...it isn't an illusion, it really happened

[@johnhausmann2391]

11:00 Physics does NOT say that the world is not there until you look at it. This is clearly wrong, and Kastrup should know better than to say that in public. And his analogy of pulling the map away from the territory : well I suppose he's saying that physical science makes inferences about reality based on pure mathematical derivation, thereby establishing the territory using mathematics, but then steps back and makes the weaker claim that actually mathematics is only a map of reality. It's a slightly interesting argument, but it fails. Science does not simply make blind inferences. Any mathematically derived inference about the physical constitution of the world needs to be backed up by experimentation, or it remains an untested theory. There is a tenet (overlooked at a times) of science that says that untestable theories are not real theories.

[@gaylarice3716]

Have the 2 of you, seen the new documentary “Source-It’s with in you” the published scientific reports shown through the eye of the scientists how the meditation that Dr. Joe Dispenza teaches can instantaneously heal the self and others, through thought, alone.

[@ExplorerDanx1]

Mr. Kastrup. I'm going to have to call your claim that there is a long term research project that shows evidence that nothing is "there" until you look at it. Where can I find this study? I've heard this "evidence" alluded to for a few years, but dismissed it because of the reputation of the claimants. Now you, with your reputation, refer to a specific project, so there must be something to look at. I suspect that the data can be interpreted numerous ways and I want to discern what it points to for myself. You can reply with the study here. I'm with you that materialism falls short in accurately modeling reality, but so do "idealism" and panpsychism. Especially the way you limit panpsychism. You say that because panpsychism is defined as a particle of matter that has consciousness then it's just another form of materialism. But, given the most widely used description of panpsychism, wouldn't it be just as valid to say that a particle of consciousness is also a particle of matter? That places consciousness as the arbitrary perspectival orientation. They're interchangeable. I suspect that the all-too-human tendency to simplify everything is where the different forms of reductionism come from. In order to grasp and work with complex ideas and systems we create mental constructs, with labels, of one idea that is a placeholder for the "bandwidth" of the complexity. And this is what I think has happened with nonduality. Some thousands of years ago, someone or a group of someones needed to intellectually grasp an anomalous experience and unconsciously oversimplified an errant interpretation of a complex experience. And that mentally constructed reduction has persisted and magnified until current times. If you have time, what are your thoughts on this?

[@petersenoji]

Analytic Idealism in a Nutshell, his new book; Why materialism is Baloney, his older one; the experimentation is set out there. Includes a recent Nobel prize. Not that hard to find my friend.

[@billyranger2627]

Wish the guest was allowed to talk.

[@hwcdlimited5693]

If you like this stuff, look at Theravada Buddhism.

[@healthyspineyoga5079]

Didn't Socrates say, "know thy Self and you will know the Universe, you will know God

[@IamPoob]

Other Solar systems are basically another universe.

[@johnstarrett7754]

Panpsychism does not require matter.

[@MaartendeJager]

The electron is not a particle, but a unity of energy said its discoverer. Light cannot be a particle, it has to be an ether disturbance (Tesla N.). And here we still are, stuck with intellectuals who cant get over their conditioned minds.

[@docjaramillo]

Does this “scientist” believe in Santa Claus too. 😂

[@AdrianSlo]

"Matter as the ontological primitive'' just seems stupid to me. No such thing as matter has ever been observed, so matter as fundamental reality is just a mistake. It's simply ignorance.

[@JaXuun]

When matter js an illusion, why do i need to work from 9 to 6 until i die to retire poor

[@yogena22]

Isn't that an illusion as well?

[@workingTchr]

If reality is mental (or Mind, non-matter, etc)", then _whose_ "mental" is it? It can't be _mine_ because then you (the reader) would be an idea in my mind and so you wouldn't exist (in the way that you have always thought you do), and it can't be _your_ mental because I would just be an idea in your mind and so I wouldn't exist. At a minimum we should proceed on the assumption that we both exist! If you say it's "The One's" (Atman's, etc) mental and that we're all instances of it, there's still a problem. How can the "reality" that you see, from your particular point of view (as one particular instance of Atman) coexist with the reality that I (as another instance of Atman) see? For example, when our events overlap (your car hits my car), what kind of x,y,z coordinates can be assigned to the overlapping parts? They aren't the same because we perceive them from different points of view. But they have to connect somehow, right? The existence of God is a radical idea to people who didn't have it beaten into us as children. Maybe the spiritual primacy of matter is another such radical idea for those who already believe in God. What if physical reality _itself_ is "sacred"? The sacred/profane distinction goes back ages, and we have presumed that the sacred mental as is more "god like" than the profane physical. What if that's just because we have been ignorant and elitist? Turn and face the strange, ch ch changes...

[@nomadchad5733]

All of these questions are answered in many of the works on idealism.

[@workingTchr]

@@nomadchad5733 That's nice to know.

[@patrickl6932]

The interview should buy a proper microphone and learn how to speak

[@sajid279]

You re able to experience your childhood now becs your material brain already has all the information about it...Its just that you did not put your attention to this part of the memory.. Most of the part of information which you have lost is filled by the minds common sense...

[@AdvaiticOneness1]

He's not talking about that, he's talking about the witness consciousness that experienced his childhood is the same witness consciousness that's experiencing his current reality. The one continuous entity from his birth to his age now is that witness consciousness which experienced all this. Experience of now is the only reality we have, past and future are in minds, they are now unreal/ like a dream. But his memory and current reality are also witnessed by the underlying witness consciousness.

[@sajid279]

@@AdvaiticOneness1 So you want to say conscious is in time Or time is in consciousness... Any way consciousness can't exist without time... Because your awareness needs an object outside of it or inside it for the consciousness else it will not be aware about ownself or anything... That's why in deep sleep we re not aware about ourselves... Consciousness does not exist at that state and we re in a state of soul...soul is a non-existent state, it does not experience time or consciousness anything...

[@AdvaiticOneness1]

@@sajid279 Time is actually an illusion of mind. Consciousness is the soul in non-dualism.

[@sajid279]

@@AdvaiticOneness1 Consciousness is awareness... Soul is not aware of anything... It is unaware of even itself.. Soul is non-existence ... Time is illusion of consciousness not mind... Mind is the knowledge like a song which is played in front of the consciousness....

[@AdvaiticOneness1]

@@sajid279 sorry for the confusion, in advaita, Jiva is soul/ego, Atman is consciousness.

[@jassiemjohnson]

It's difficult listening to this episode because the “S” pronunciation is too sharp. 🙃

[@collabaleine6937]

Worth a little bit of electronic lisping to listen to the brilliant Bernado Kastrup repudiating Materialist metaphysics

[@stephengee4182]

Maybe try adjusting the equalizer sound setting.

[@clivejenkins4033]

Trivial matter, just adjust your device

[@rosewater6778]

Loved the podcast but glad you made that point coz I've noticed after I got my front two teeth rebuilt for aesthetics and the little gap between them for air to pass disappeared, I've been facing the same lisping problem and it's not a very happy situation 😅

[@valuemastery]

Luckily I finished listening to the episode before I read your comment, so I didn't notice too early 😊

[@RighteousMonk-m1m]

Mr. Chopra, smoke a rock 🪨 (c.co*aine), you will experience subject-object experience without meditation!😅

[@rajeevgangal542]

yuck one 🐍 🛢 salesman to...