The Indus Script DeMystified: Origins, Character and Disappearance

[@colorguppies]

I always wonder why many don’t think the Indus writing system or the people of the Indus influenced other civilizations. Just the trade imbalance alone leaves many questions. Good lecture.

[@Kar90great]

Basically it has a lot to do with politics

[@show-n5z]

Just whiteman's Christianity couldn't accept it, they had their agendas, prozelitisation.

[@marirogers0153]

ii have to agree. Indus script on early pottery, very early, is as old or older than early Egyptian, pre-Egyptian or Sumeric symbols found in their trasheaps.

[@nickdon]

@@marirogers0153 thats not true at all. The Indus script was in the same period with Egyptian scripts . The Egyptian script was derived from Phoenician script. That’s why Ashoka inscribed on his pillars Aramaic scripts.

[@marirogers0153]

@@nickdon Sorry, but your historical facts are not so factual sir. Phoenician writing came much later… Egyptian hieroglyphs began after the earliest date for the Indus civilization ( so the IVC lettering could have begun and been developing a thousand year plus or minus before the hieroglyphs time period…) The Egyptian systems evolved over thousands of years from a southern (Africa) Egyptian desert area found on pottery or tags as one of the first examples in that region, as well as on some rock art recently discovered telling of the probable first king of Egyptian dynasties, with pictographs only. The Indus script is phonetic, we know that, it is much more sophisticated and more similar to phonecian writing and other scripts which came later worldwide except Oriental characters. So even tho, the Indus script is perhaps quite earlier than the others as far as being phonetic and advanced in type, mostly, there is much less we know about the ppl simply bc of the relatively small number of digs and recent discoveries of the entire millions of ppl in the wider ranging areas, IVC script would be considered more sophisticated. (along with the qualities of the building and trade networks) as compared with hieroglyphs which are pictographs and sounds represented by pictures that start with that sound. Egyptian and Sumerian writing systems were more simple in style , so were their cities…the Indus region ranks the highest among the three comparatively as the earliest, largest, most accommodating, most logically and mathematically constructed among several other qualities for its earlier time period…The first Pharos to build pyramids larger than mounds with stones brought in or straight bricks were not even born yet when the IVC was well on its way. So IVC and Mesopotamia were more in the similar time period but it is still not known how much earlier the IVC area was inhabited by large numbers of ppl doing complex tasks in contrast to the other ones we are talking about which were focused almost entirely on religious and warring power struggles…which is all there was in the Middle East and Levant throughout time…even until today! That is all that those civilizations have produced lasting to the present other than gold and other precious artifacts, triangular building structures and some medical procedures and religious beliefs, myths and rites passed down thru their beautiful and starkly agressive cultures to much of that area from its early period to continuing , with advanced building and engineering later also influenced by Romans and Greeks. Egypt ceased to be when Alexander the Great and Julius Caesar took their places in history and so it became a much different type of civilization 2000 years ago Cuneiform, which several languages were written in, is amazing tho, in that it is simply a few geometric shapes in varying orders to have enough context to convey the ideas they needed to. So it is not very complex, nor creative as are the other two writing systems Grammar, as we know it today, and all the little words we now use in speech, were not used or written back then in that area…So…Egypt was around for a long period and was the most well known country of its time… and so simply for the reason that many items did not deteriorate in that context, and much was transmitted about it during the 3000 years of time we know much about, motivation has been high to dig up Egypt bc of all the gold and precious riches to be gained by looting Egypt of its goods which were won-and stolen from its neighbors and its ppl to give to the Pharos, Priests and few elites that ran their organizations. Later, when the Phoenicians were putting together ancient symbols of the bull and other important figures from hundreds plus of years in several different cultures, they simplified the sticks and circles to become an alphabet which was much quicker to use, decode and teach to others in any language. Around that time, early greeks began experimenting with some of the same symbols, borrowed from Phoenician travelers, and then later the Romans began using that type of alphabet. The Hebrew writing and others in theLevant don really even fit into the picture here. . The amazing thing tho, is that while all that was beginning and going on from around 3000 BC to 500 BC, in Asia, Sanskrit and Tamil had already been developed as perfect spoken languages, as latin much later would become and not long after they were perfected in oral memory, written forms began to appear and again were created specifically to reflect the perfect spoken language exactly. So it is not surprising that, With the IVC being earliest in its complexity , advanced in purpose for its population, not just for the manifestation of the kings and priests and having to give all the wealth the ppl could produce.

[@_Painted]

I wonder how many written languages have been lost to time due to not being recorded on durable materials. For example, there are a few unique old records discovered written on birch bark, but the chances of something like that surviving in a non-arid climate must be extremely unlikely, so we're incredibly lucky to have found any examples.

[@nothingexists5066]

Indus script is a early form of sanskrit

[@wigglyk2796]

@@nothingexists5066 It's not.

[@nothingexists5066]

@@wigglyk2796 it is because it is very similar to vedic sanskrit

[@based4560]

@@nothingexists5066 hm I want to hear more about this, in what way is it similar?

[@Okijuben]

Not to mention sea level changes and that we've been anatomically modern for around 250k years. I wouldn't be surprised if there were many civilizations lost to prehistory.

[@kirtigupta9753]

Another discovery happened a few days back in the ancient site of Rakhilgarhi. A jewellery making factory which is 5000 years old have been discovered at the site.

[@GyanTvAmit]

rakhigari itself is 9000 year old site,so no wonder❤

[@thaisdarosa2100]

Thank you very much for this posting. I’ve been waiting for years to hear about an update on Indus script decipherment. Now, it is more understandable what a complex issue it is... time, region, context, possible political changes may be some of the problems. Looking forward to further posts... particularly on current and ongoing excavation projects!

[@ahummbrahmasmi]

@@nickdon and who are they?

[@ArrowBast]

@@ahummbrahmasmi It was a cosmopolitan bunch neither Dravidian nor Munda nor Indo Aryan but varying admixtures of them all with an Indo Aryan Cline to the north, Dravidian to the South and Munda/Tharu/Kusunda to the East , with some more Dravidian to the East. to the West maybe Elamitic , Euphratic and Proto Scythian.

[@ahummbrahmasmi]

@@ArrowBast and the proof?

[@AnnapoornaPosaniKalakruti]

I have been reading seen the finds and trying to learn scripts similarities from rocks carvings, palm leaves and other leaves wood, leather, coaches, pots, and clay and stone as well cloth and paparus from Egypt and seen impressions of some signs sun-baked mud in temple peripheries very ancient in south in forests of shrisailam in 1964 near some rishi tapo stalas deep near mallamma kaneeru. Which was tigers infested those times. The aghoris, Saints including women go in groups to secure water forest berries fruits and store food in stone caves with oil litter lamps taking shelters in these rocks. I saw the sand baked symbols and graffiti on mud and stone near markandeya thapo sthala also near Shankara tapo stala if we walk a km down the hill into the valley very dangerous terrain saw weird symbols carved also writings may be by tribal scripts of vanished tribes.

[@AnnapoornaPosaniKalakruti]

Visited many museums too. Many places of archeological sites. I too tried to dicefer based on dravidic scripts and elamite too. I find elam mentioned in Dravidic writings 2000 years back in Tamil sangam also Taamiz in Arabic countries texts too. Kuwait and Syria- they found lime stone with teaching slate of aramaic to some dravidic brahmi script and number system and symbols like the reverted v as mountain and u as river and upward line with three lines or six lines representing the palm trees and only single line with thirty degrees two lines on each side as farm land of paddy, and number system of pachika a bone which has 1 to 5 dots on each square cube also rectangle cubes. The fish with seven dots on both side represent a game of learning numbers with seeds carved in wood which opens on two sides with seven deep cut cup shape. Two people can play with seeds usually they are with tamarind seeds. Initially learning counting from seeds changed into games. Even china has such wodden instruments which teach maths. Abecus. The fish, now, tree, lines linear and horizontal round dots, square, hexagonal lines cross crossing and lines used in zig zag fashion the swastik symbol and other symbols we still use as muggu patterns in our entrances and in villages were huts are lasted with red soil paint with white chalk these patterns of later I did valley symbols still in tribal belts of Karnataka, AP, TN, Orrisa, Baster and also in almost in villages. These line drawings and symbols are done during harvest festivals and new year and later it became a cultural part to decorate entrances walls with these symbols and drawings. I find Indus symbols and lines dots and animals birds and riverine animals are I'm fact a combination of numbers, signs, composite sentences and trade marks measures and logos as well some mode of communication by traders. I find it to be an isolate by itself. As Elam civilisation had many mix invasions and change that underwent the UR in Telugu is town uru also patinam town may be we got from uruk or ur civilisation pushed or migrated due to wars from ackadians on elam rulers of Uruk destroyed and people moved into the present Indus to Arabian sea islands. It's my personal observation.

[@marysylvie2012]

Excellent as usual. Thank you, Dr. Kenoyer!

[@chakreshsingh]

I wish I can leave everything and participate in this excavation and research ... I don’t know where to start though

[@oldmanfromscenetwentyfour8164]

Contact a local University that has an Archeology Dept and ask to volunteer.

[@maharishi9111]

Well start on your own backyard first

[@peterparker-pl8wt]

Yes, you are right. Cause ASI doesn't want want to say the truth or no interest on these important historical field. That means if they found anything related to Sanskrit all Aryans stat talking and spend lot of money and people to do research. It's not important to find out about Tamils history. Indian name was given by Western, Hindu name was given by Western. The whole India was called Tamilar Nadu before. Tamils' scripts were stolen from TN by Aryans and made Sanskrit stories. it's a historical events happened those days.

[@nickdon]

@Himalayas South Indians are true and original settlers of India!

[@nickdon]

@Himalayas Indus Valley civilisation is not an Indian civilisation !

[@joebombero1]

The Maya script was deciphered without a second known script, but the Mayan language was still existing and this aided the decipherment. Here we do not even know the base language used.

[@annjuurinen6553]

Truly informative. I really enjoyed this lecture about a fascinating part of the ancient world. Seeing the artifacts up close is tremendous.

[@ForbiddenHistoryLIVE]

INDEED

[@gopalaraodasari7743]

Within a contextual framework, one of indus seals carries an ethnography depicting a cow with two jowls/ ruminating stomachs. Another seal carries an ox covered by a blanket/ cloth on its hind. Ox/ cow in sub indus culture is often used as diety on auspicious occasions.

[@Joseph-yu4lx]

Not by the Indus people descendants in Tamilnadu. Cow worship is Aryan practice because in their original home Morth Siberian grassland, their wealth was cows and they lived on the milk and milky products. Still after their movement to north India, they follow. In south the Aryan influenced slaves groups follow that practice.

[@Rick1234567S]

I deciphered a bunch of symbols and I have some examples and I posted them to a Ted Talk on the subject. The posts are at the top of the comments. And this was 2 years ago and I was immersed in the culture at that time so it was easier for me to interpret the symbols and they made complete sense. So if you look up Rajesh Rao: Computing a Rosetta Stone for the Indus script and read the top comments by me, I think you will find some symbols to help with your deciphering. It appears to be mostly advertising of products and product information. The examples are read from right to left because the script at times shows where they ran out of room and squished in the last left hand symbol since they started at the other end, the right side.

[@Thinker117]

Based on your study, what does the seal of Pashupati illustrate? What is written on it?

[@Rick1234567S]

@nancybhati4009 It appears to be a road tax stamp. That claims to go all the way from Pakistan to Africa as a form of protection, and it says they cleared the road using elephants and if you stray off the road it is very dangerous and there is fresh water at places along the road. They have paid a tribute to the chief, who represents a deity, and they are not being specific about the deity, since they claim to be shipping things all the way to Africa. Or are known all the way to Africa as a sheep or goat herding people. So a toll or tax and almost like a charm more than papers of transit. That's my opinion. Its the main route to Egypt they don't call it the silk route they call it something else. And it has a long history that goes back to the ancient builders. (see Praveen Mohan) It actually says the stargate is no longer there. They used to use a stargate to get from India to Egypt. But its written in such a way like the root of a word where the word comes from. So the people using it might not even know that's what it means. As if they were referring to Mesopotamia but the name of Mesopotamia came from the place where the stargate used to be. And has long been lost in translation. So a very tiny reference to a deity usually Horus above a stargate door on a shipping seal, like a Mesopotamian cylinder seal that had a quarantine marking on it against scorpions for goods shipped through the off planet stargate door at Corcancha. Yet the door is stylized. But it does seem to reference a Mesopotamian cylinder seal as part of saying the silk route. Whatever name they had for it at the time. It's impressionistic symbolism, to appeal to different cultures different languages like a dock and common shipping languages that are basic communications. Made by the people involved in trade. So here they are saying they are on the 80 dollar goat system. That is to say that a goat to us today is worth 80 bucks, how many goats is that shipment of wine worth? So a common value and they have goat herders right through to Africa who will befriend you since you paid the toll.

[@Rick1234567S]

This is a fascinating piece. The cow ears probably represent Hathor, a reference to Hathor, where the stargate door was to Peru, she has that on her head most of the time, but why the cows ears are nipped must be a reference again to the fact the stargate trade system is down, and staying down so they go overland. A Mesopotamian cylinder seal says it was due to a breach of the quarantine and small pox that they removed the stargate door in Peru. And everywhere I guess. So to reference Mesopotamian cylinder seals is to reference the door has been down as reported there, and so since you cannot use the Hathor system, Egyptian record keeping and that trade route, things are different now. So they had a door to Peru for livestock and then a door in Peru at Coricancha. So the large livestock door is the one that cattle went through to Peru. It is a distance from Coricancha since that door was special for goods off planet. And people. But planet wide trade existed using local stargate doors as well as reported everywhere. See Guide of Egypt star gate see Praveen Mohan and stargates in India, see google images star gate Peru. Mesopotamian cylinder seals 3,500 BCE where they talk about stargate doors, and then that seal at 2350-2000 BCE so a thousand years later they probably don't even know what a stargate door is but the language refers to it. Symbolically. We might assume they knew if it was part of their religious paradigm. So a trade network existed but so did so much else like pyramids and stonework using the same metal straps poured in place clamps. And vehicle tracks 14 million years old everywhere. Technology that was similar to modern technology in Ancient Egypt and India. Amazonian civilization that was full of cities and agriculture the entire area farmed. Cities in Mexico. Roads that are everywhere in South America and so the quarantine for small pox didn't save them from the conquistadors whoever was left there in the so called land of the giants. So they switched from cows to goats in the Indus valley. What we find in terms of artifacts for record keeping for trade says they were using stargates in India, Egypt Mesopotamia and Peru. 3500 BCE And one off planet door was also in Peru at Coricancha. So India shipped cattle to Peru, according to the Hathor record keeping system. Where this breaks down is why no elephants? The door was huge to Peru from Egypt it is above Hathor's head in numerous places and easily found in google images Peru stargate. Yet we have this... "Elephants never existed in the Americas and so their presence at Copán on Stela B, which was carved for ruler 18 Rabbit in 731AD, has become a hotly debated topic" No stargate on Easter Island but evidence of a sea route to India and Japan from Peru. Same stone work. It's all a mystery.

[@Tziguene]

​@@Rick1234567Sperhaps the Stargate is the sea, or rather the navigation of waterways

[@ymelfilm]

this was really scientific and thorough. Not like many other 'documentary' like-hunting videos on youtube.

[@anselmdanker9519]

Thank you for a very informative presentation, and for posting it.

[@sekarkaliyappan5875]

Good Lecture! Wondering why there is no mention about the Bull seal ? May be not relevant to this topic??!!!! As of date, archeological findings at Keezhadi in TamilNadu found potteries with writings, similar to Indus Script. Waiting to hear more from you.

[@dheera8889]

Yes, tamilnadu is center of creation. Tamils are demigods. Periyar is the God and karunanidhi is reincarnation of the God.

[@kiranus8286]

@@dheera8889 😂😂bulls eye

[@ashker3389]

@@dheera8889 Your sarcasm proves savages like you won't know how to read research papers to get an update on current archaeological findings. 😆

[@annamalairamanathan2486]

They can't tolerate the word Tamil.Barbarians.

[@KKPR533]

@@dheera8889 wats so funny buddy??

[@hdthor]

If you set your slides to presentation mode (instead of just full screen), it won’t have red squiggly spell check marks.

[@nfazal4065]

It has been suggested that the Harrapan symbols appear in Easter lsland,is there any merit to it? Prof.Dr Nasir Fazal Cambridge

[@thirukurungudisastha8328]

Because tamil and Indus script scholar Ayiravadham Mahadevan had mentioned that there is a connection between the two scripts

[@nickdon]

Tamil is the oldest language of india not Hindi?

[@nickdon]

@Cheltook Tribe Hindi is the oldest language in the world? Are you on drugs?

[@bhanupratap1063]

@@nickdon Hindi is just thousand year old

[@lakshmivaidyanathan2254]

@@bhanupratap1063 what about sanskrit

[@marirogers0153]

so what i recently read was that sanscrit evolved from a language x that has many other languages later evolving from it…and that tamil also evolved from this original language around the same time, but in a different line, but there was some connecting between sanscrit and tamil languages which followed from there so over time hindi and it s many languages evolved from the sanscrit language line and the tamil related languages came from the tamil line. so essentially, two different language systems evolved which were sanscrit and tamil after that came every other indian language, on one line or the other, very early on. Sanscrit being earlier than greek, latin and all of the other currently known languages in either of those two lines. no one knows what the origin of the earlier or earliest language of the entire indo european family, but it all began inIndia and the other languages to the west evolved from India and Sanscrit type languages, and in many other places other languages that are not related to tamil from some other place entirely. Tamil languages also have many relatives. Hindi as it is spoken now or in the known past as written down, came a bit later BUT, Hindi also came over time with several other related languages. So neither Tamil or Sanscrit is really older than the other, they both go back to the time of earliest languages we can identify. Hindi etc. came down from Sanscrit early on because its early forms were spoken, not written, as Sanscrit was used for specific purposes over time..

[@mfadls]

I'm wondering why the Danube script of Vinca culture from central and southeastern Europe is not mentioned in the beginning of this presentation?

[@danilodesnica3821]

Good question! I'd guess that if there are no papers in English language, then it just gets ignored. It's a convenient blind spot.

[@mfadls]

@@danilodesnica3821 Sure there are (enough) books and papers in English discussing the Danube script, if we do not blind ourselves :)

[@rupertbollywood1190]

Probably because it has no relevance?

[@arunsadasivan1738]

Hope to see this channel active with new videos

[@williamrobertdasilva9644]

The issue of script, that is writing, does not resolve itself with '-glyph,' which seems to be the issue at Indus Valley discoveries. However, your explanation seems to get a more complicated explanation of an urban 'use' of whatever is called script of Harappa etc. It is in the direction of a clarification of the issue at stake. Thank you very much.

[@jonswap9097]

Early Egyptian writing was used to record tax collection. The Indus valley seals seem to be records of trade transactions. That is why they were so short and used a lot of symbols. That does not mean that those transactions represented the entire language or even the entire written language.

[@chrisnewbury3793]

Exactly. It would be like somebody finding short-hand and trying to figure out what English is from it.

[@robertschlesinger1342]

Excellent video. Very interesting, informative and worthwhile video.

[@ranapratapsingh3416]

Great presentation. Some investigators are saying this is a logo-syllabic script.

[@saoirse_flies]

Meaning each symbol is a syllable of its own? Interesting idea.

[@ranapratapsingh3416]

@@saoirse_flies Almost that can be said with confidence. The biggest challenge is to find the correct values for them. Now the challenge is that we have large number of signs almost 400.

[@saoirse_flies]

@@ranapratapsingh3416 it stands to reason that any logo-syllabic script would require a vast array of characters to represent the variety of syllables used in a given vocal language. So, although the myriad characters do make identifying them all challenging, it seems the number of them does support the idea that this probably is indeed a logo-syllabic script.

[@SimFoxSim]

Why is it in such a low res? 480p? Charts are unreadable!

[@liamredmill9134]

I had an idea ,there are many very very ancient petragliphs across India 30k-4kbefore now .I have only seen a few of the thousands of examples which mostly consist of zooamorphic and geometric forms(such as swastika,sun,water)but maybe there is other rock art(petragliphs) that could be related in some way,this would be a new approach to this subject,that I have not heard of before,but is plausible,thankyou for you excellent presentation and hope you have a great new year

[@alien_girl900]

Yess it could be and also there's so many petragliphs accross the ancient Hindu temples maybe they have some symbolism in common

[@rilosvideos877]

Very interesting! Unfortunatly the video quality (resolution) ist not very good for the detailed charts you present. Would it be possible to get a Powerpoint copy or PDF of the details?

[@chabimathur3461]

Some geometric designs are still used in our families as a part of religious worship we do on the occasion of Rakhi and Diwali.

[@wonderlandrockopera]

Home or house sign means small village. The objective to far left is a fence or wall. The symbol second to right fruit trees. The triangle symbol relates to sewer or clean water. It is a property seal. Every house needed a description of what apartment they owned or rented. This was Dense population.

[@tknratnajothi]

TKNR.FROM SRI LANKA.WELL EXPLAINED ENLIGHTENING FACTS FOR EVERY GENERATION OF HUMANITY.

[@drmpsinha6461]

Thank you very much for your learned exposition of the writing system of the Harappan civilization. As you have admitted , we cannot interpret the writing system as we do not know the language spoken by the Harappan people. One important aspect is to explored : the migration of the Harappan people. Where did they move? Did they go to South India or to Eastern India? It is the duty of anthropologists but they have to take help of archaeologists.Thank you once more for enlightening laymen like us .

[@indoolderguy4041]

Since we have very poor selections of ancients, we tend to reflect our views without olfactorial functions. Leading to more confusion than ever before.

[@NikhillRao27]

Great lecture. It's nice to see an analysis on how the writing system functioned in society that's not based on the (as of now) impossible task of deciphering it. One thing I thought of recently: Are there any examples of bookeeping/accounting systems at all? It's tough to see how the economy could have functioned without it (especially since taxing the movement of goods/trade seems to have been of prime importance). If we have not found such records then to me it points strongly to the idea that they used perishable materials for documents.

[@SonjaHand]

I believe India is a Great Jewel for learning and development. It's underestimated because not enough people talk about it. This lecture is Awesome 😁

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[@missionaryavart113]

Thankyou sir for uploading about Indus Valley Civilization

[@matthewmann8969]

The script is being more revealing and seeking

[@rupertbollywood1190]

36:03 that's a 2-horned animal in the upper right, not 1-horned. If you look again you'll see it's looking up and to the left. This causes the right-side horn to appear over the neck.

[@anilpatel3357]

Can someone tell me how was mahabatata a and ramayan and kuruksherta war not mentioned at all by other ancient countries who were dealing with India then?

[@hidgik]

South East Asian countries have some different versions of Ramayana. I don't know about Mahabharatha.

[@hegel5816]

Because they were mere tribal wars exaggerated and buried under myths and legends... If it was not for the Buddhist literatures we would have not known our ancient history...

[@murugesanperumal8386]

Might be it predates them

[@hidgik]

@@murugesanperumal8386 It is generally (not universally) accepted that Ramayana pre dates Mahabharatha. If that is the case, we need to investigate if stories similar to Mahabharatha are existent among the South East Asian nations.

[@m.r.chandrashekaragupta4952]

@@hegel5816: Have U read the RAAMAAYANA & MAHAABHAARATHA in original poetic format. None in the world would (has) write(n) tribal-wars in poetic format. Importantly read the actual war.

[@SibteSajjad-h4k]

Am questioning , why No symbol of river blind dolphin is mentioned.

[@romauldnundoo]

I was recently looking at ancient Chinese writing, characters, and some of the Indus characters in shown in this video see similar. but someone probably already looked at that. just an observation

[@thecomment9489]

Indus script is pictographic and among modern in use languages Chinese is known be be pictographic. It is possible that when the Indus valley civilisation was declining it's people migrated to various places and one branch possibly to China.

[@Hypatiaization]

at 23:20 the clay objects resemble resonance frequency patterns

[@chubbymoth5810]

That was extremely interesting. The Indus culture is one I am not often hearing about, but these lectures sure make it more compelling. It is quite hard to find good archaeological content in between all the popular madness. Much of it is either aliens because we're too dumb to work things out these days, so my grandpa could neither, or the link everything vaguely relatable to pseudo religious right wing propaganda to impress the ignorati and make them do bad things if we incite them enough. Thank you very much for promoting serious content that can help mitigate rampant bullshit from taking over reality.

[@pranays]

So true American made "history" shows drive me nuts

[@geassamvs426]

Who hurt you?

[@Kaz.Klay.]

Right wing what? Archaeology should have nothing to do w politics.. you'd have to explain that

[@santikim8134]

@@geassamvs426 or the question could be - what hurt you? Some people get very hurt if they witness perceived injustice. Witnessing injustice can be hurtful for some. So not always a ‘who’ question answer.

[@Mr0rris0]

​@@Kaz.Klay.see Hitler It's Atlantis muskovites Pleiades Matias de Stefano with Gaia and the cia on about the galactic federation with Israel now All that Indiana Jones nazi tomb raiders stuff wasn't too far off base because the ones riding in the car believed in aliens kinda like the scientologists Mormons and witchcraft folks.. Archeology has everything to do with who's got the rightful claim on the territories of the present. May have something to do with the Russia conflict and their belief we are all demon worshipers or something. If not the various ways of saying baphomet enki enlil Ishtar isis that have the abrahamics going at it. F the fing aliens... It's robots dressed like aliens we gotta worry about... Illuminati tesla robots comissioned by the rothschilds that el elyon makes ;)

[@rilosvideos877]

Hmmm, with 'DeMystified' i associated 'deciphered', but it is not as you mention in min. 12. I hoped the texts could be interpreted now...

[@peterparker-pl8wt]

Most of the artifacts found in IV and Kezhadi excavations in Tamil Nadu are same. Please watch NewsX English channel for information and evidence. There are lot of Tamil names are In Pakistan's Afghanistan same as in Tamil Nadu.

[@nomanor7987]

There is ZERO connection between the Indus Valley civilization and anything Indian today.

[@rtam7097]

@@nomanor7987 lol still today in Balochistan,Pakistan a dravidian language is spoken which is Brahui. Dravidian language family(Tamil,Telegu,Malayalam,Kannada,Gondi,Brahui)

[@nomanor7987]

@@rtam7097 Harrapans were not Dravidians. Their script has not been deciphered.

[@luciangabrielpopescu]

@@nomanor7987 We don't know, but there is a significant chance they were. I think the only clue, unless a bilingual text is discovered, is to analyze substratum of Vedic Sanskrit: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Substratum_in_Vedic_Sanskrit

[@peterparker-pl8wt]

@@nomanor7987 before you say something in media get some knowledge. Watch NewsX channel, it's NOT from Tamil Nadu. The artifacts that found in IV and Keezhadi, TN 99 percent same as IV and "Thamizhi" means Tamil Brahmi letters found too. Go watch what they talked about and comment back.

[@Pindi44]

Very interesting, but a great pity that the filming was out of focus and most of the slides could not be read for detail.

[@khalidrashid2092]

Very clear on my screen. No problem

[@ashblackhawk]

Impressive evidence collection by the researcher. Interesting theory on writing.

[@peterwapemoose2710]

Explain Rongo Rongo and why an Easter Island script is identical to Harrapan script from thousands of years before?

[@acpatel9491]

Thank you for very comprehensive but detailed presentation. It always baffles me that there is a material cultural connection got carried on but no linguistic writing connection! What boggles my mind is that I don't see or hear about any connection with Sanskrit!!! India is vast and extremely diverse. There should be in some tribal form it may have some representative connection somewhere. I am also inclined to think as you have said that latter part of 'declining writing in hard evidences' may have been replaced by more fragile yet versatile form of writing material like palm leaves and language itself may have more evolved at that point to put it on those stiff writing vehicles. It may not represent the decline of civilization it self and civilization may have just moved in a Gangetic plains area due to drying up of Sarasvati river because of change in plains by geographical events. Please people can you get over conspiracy theory or politics and try to get to the truth by encouraging/devoting more resources toward this kind of research. This is not any better than what Max Mueller and Wheeler did!!!

[@ckpnair9508]

Thank you! I meant only that the archaeologists' practice of using "I think" as a point of argument or as a supporting argument should not be universally acceptable.

[@ckpnair9508]

Perhaps the writing media could not survive underground OR Books might have already migrated to mind as in Vedic period (or the Vedic period might have had started) OR The literature might have survived in the great ancient libraries only to be destroyed later by the Western invading imbecile bruits. We do not have to devine our answers. Searches in Budhist monasteries (of Tibet etc.) may be worthwhile.

[@prashinrao4931]

Ok so. There is but is it hard to explain. I will try here for you. Listen to what he says at 2:45 about Linear A and Linear B. These are both graphical writing systems(a fish means something, a cow may mean something else etc etc) . Linear B has been deciphered and is acknowledged to be the distant ancestor of Greek language and symbolism. It is proven and transcriptions are available. Linear A now is much much older and to this day it remains unreadable/undecyphered. Now, Linear A has been found on Crete, Sumer, Anatolia and wherever the Phoenicians were in the Mediterranean. Then, in India, excavations and archeology has proven that there was a similar writing system to Linear A in many places. They found many seals and several tablets. Except, the big bang question was when they studied Linear A from the Mediterranean. There was a specific and consistent pattern to the writing and its alphabet system. The surprise was that the contemporary Indian writing system used the same alphabetical system but of a different phrasing construction. Similar to our modern Latin writing system for French and English uses the same alphabet but they mean different things when written, right? I hope I am still relevant so far. Now, there are consistencies because for e.g, the swastika appears in Linear A, and is present from that period from Anatolia to India. The seals contain the swastika, the fish, a double cross, wavy forms etc etc. Hopefully in the future, we will be able to find a key to decipher Linear A. The key lies in doing more archeaological research to uncover more clues about this dead language, perhaps a Rosetta Stone. The Linear A and sanskrit languages should be very close to each other in meaning if revealed and should sound phonetically very similar to one another. The Greek language has kept very few traces of this common origin not necessarily in writing but certainly phonetically.

[@whoareyou-jb3wo]

SANSKRIT is in side the India oldest language out side the India tamil language is oldest Funny India israel JEWS

[@NurHayati-ho2mi]

​@@whoareyou-jb3wo india is jew

[@zarathustra7117]

Were all the religious / wealth objects that accompanied the buried seals looted by invaders over the years, leaving only the seals left?

[@ow2750]

most interesting lectures! compliment!

[@michaelwoodsmccausland5633]

What about the Hittite Cannanite Greek 1929 “ Rosetta “ of Bahl

[@manojjadhav7518]

Great lecture. Thanks....

[@shobadasari5363]

Is that seal an Iberian Ibex ,a spanish wild goat and would that mean this species extended across from the spanish pyreenes to upto indus region and roughly when did that species go extinct ?.

[@donnacsuti4980]

That seal you thought was a unicorn looks much more like a rhinoceros

[@PratapKNair]

Maybe the script disappeared as they found other material like cloths or bark for writing but they didn't survive. Even Ashoka reign was deciphered because of his rock proclamations

[@nixonvaij]

I disagree with the point that the writing is restricted to elite, because we have several pottery which all Tamil people were educated. Keezadi in Tamil Nadu will be interesting to you sir. Thank you for your research.

[@wonji5385]

keezadi in tamilnadu is from 600bc. Harappa is more than 3300bc. in west bengal there is site called chandraketugarh, which is similiar period like keezadi, 500bc. there is another site in west bengal which is older than keezadi, called pandu rajar dhibi.

[@oldmanfromscenetwentyfour8164]

ALL Tamil were Educated? Like ALL other Civilisations, education was based on a "Need-to-Know" principle.

[@nixonvaij]

@@wonji5385 Keezadi is recently discovered. But we have scripts of graffiti in Adhichansllur, dates back to 1600 bc. There we have got human skeleton of three different race, anlo, niger and mongolian who came for a trade.

[@nixonvaij]

We are expecting more evidences, since sumerian language is similar to Tamil, our age might be older than Indus valley civilization or we might be the same lived in Indus. We have got graffiti in Keezadi mean we are the same lived in Indus.

[@wonji5385]

@@nixonvaij is this graffiti in tamil brahmi or indus script?

[@alfreddaniels3817]

Interesting overview of this research. I think much of the “ explanations” are really “interpretations” and “hypotheses”. As such I am afraid there is quite a strong bias in the speaker to “see” rituals, religion, social stratification, cosmology and a presumed need to express higher meanings of life through: “writing”. More understanding of the daily life of people in an early city will probably lead to more realistic perspective on the use of these signs and symbols.

[@gruboniell4189]

Writing and formal symbolism came with trade, professionalism and ownership. Also “secret code” between generational distant trading partners need proof of work. Bit like btc I guess

[@michaelwoodsmccausland5633]

What about the Pacific West Iconic Linguistics

[@Zebred2001]

It occurs to me that perhaps the unicorn is the natural symbol of scribes and other accounting functionaries of writing precisely because they use a stylus.

[@nrepespdn5635]

Why that unicorn but not rhino?

[@Zebred2001]

@@nrepespdn5635 I'm thinking that what scholars have been calling a unicorn is in fact a stylized rhino.

[@TheMahasweta]

Ground shell or sankha churna is still used as cosmetic on some parts of Bengal.

[@76rjackson]

You omitted the vinca script from your list of earliest writing.

[@pranays]

Those are single marks and symbols like potters marks not a writing system. The only tablet is labeled as "authenticity is disputed." So why would he talk about potters marks and possible forgeries?

[@76rjackson]

@@pranays Interesting information you have put out, there. And that's what KZbin videos share, isn't it?

[@pranays]

@@76rjackson This is not about your European myths it's about the real history. isn't it?

[@76rjackson]

@@pranaysYou are no doubt aware that before being deciphered,there were respected scholars who deemed many ancient scripts, including Egyptian and Mayan, as mere decorations? As a student of history, you are also no doubt aware that Sumerian cuneiform evolved from a system of "potter's mark" everyone else dismissed except for one insightful art historian. Yes, but let's make this about your little pet peeve so you can nurse that grudge of yours. And btw, what is your source for the forgery assertion re: the vinca script?

[@dannydandaniel8040]

Most of the script has bilateral symmetry.... Don't know what the significance of that is but i don't know another script that has that quality

[@bethbartlett5692]

A valuable introduction to the subject. Very well done.

[@varghessmith2985]

His local development theory is disputed as Indus script and "Rongorongo" in Easter islander is related! Everything is valuable is some way or other! www.ancient-wisdom.com/easterislandindusvalley1.htm

[@chabimathur3461]

To date our earthenware pottery is decorated with designs which do not mean anything to the buyer. . They are there for decorative purposes only.

[@Rick1234567S]

You can interpret them easily once you know what the unicorn seals are. These are labels that go on containers and they do not expect you to understand the language so you have to think along the lines of farmers and hunter gathers shipping goods along the silk route. Like you find on a box of tomatoes. So water is a fish and the actual ark of the covenant is described as Noah's ark. The unicorn was first a unicow. So an early one that looks like a cow says the Orion people (dot dot dot) are farmers not hunter gathers. So this is to tell people that they have better produce. I have translated many of them myself.

[@jeffreylehman1159]

But they wouldn’t be shipping produce outside of local area

[@ArrowBast]

till recent times a special script was used by traditional mercantile communities in the regions of Western India - this overlaps exactly with highest frequency of Indus Valley remains . This Script is described here en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahajani. The Indus valley tokens may be a primitive and secret accounting tokens - not meant to be revealed to people outside the mercantile caste . The laws of Manu were strict back then in enforcing the traditional duties of a particular occupational class. People that betrayed their caste vocations to outsiders would be shunned and ostracized and would have to leave the pale of Indus civilization - naturally many went into Iran or Turan if they were shunned.

[@lucasrinaldi9909]

@@ArrowBast There's no "Law of Manu" before Vedic Civilization. And Vedic Civilization ≠ Indus Valley Civilization.

[@Rick1234567S]

@jeffreylehman1159 What we find in terms of artifacts for record keeping for trade says they were using stargates in India, Egypt Mesopotamia and Peru. 3500 BCE And one off planet door was also in Peru at Coricancha. So India shipped cattle to Peru, according to the Hathor record keeping system. Where this breaks down is why no elephants? The door was huge to Peru from Egypt it is above Hathor's head in numerous places and easily found in google images Peru stargate. Yet we have this... "Elephants never existed in the Americas and so their presence at Copán on Stela B, which was carved for ruler 18 Rabbit in 731AD, has become a hotly debated topic" No stargate on Easter Island but evidence of a sea route to India and Japan from Peru. Same stone work. It's all a mystery.

[@rupertbollywood1190]

55:50 bottom left looks pictorial, with numbered array of 12.Weighted club man defends against invading armies.

[@riazhassan6570]

Interesting possibility. As a resident of the Indus region I have had a long-term interest in the ancient script. Fanciful, nationalistic, linguistic, computational or political theories aside, not much real progress has been made. The symbols we have are set in relatively permanent materials. What they represent is debatable, but in view of the considerable extent of the civilization and the fact that a lot of trading and accounting took place, they might be symbolic seals rather than graphemes of a language. Also, several related or even unrelated languages were probably spoken in the region, just as they are today. This does not exclude the possibility of a link language and a common script. It is difficult to imagine how the administrative and commercial activities of such a long-lasting and cohesive civilization could have been managed without writing, but it might have been done on more flexible and convenient, but sadly impermanent materials

[@chabimathur3461]

Also one should not forget that our ancient libraries of Nalanda,Taxila were burnt to the ground!

[@chabimathur3461]

The burning may have caused the oral tradition of education in India. Our Vedas,Puranas and Upanishads are very old.

[@riazhassan6570]

@@chabimathur3461 They were old, certainly, but perhaps not old enough. There is a wide hiatus between what we can discern (very little) of the endings of this ancient civilization and what we can discern (not much) of the beginnings of what there is now. Yet it is not unreasonable to expect that some features of that civilization persisted in the region. Among other claims, scholars from Sindh point out that wooden cartwheels in parts of that province were constructed in a similar way till quite recently, and there are people who claim that Punjabi and Sindhi are descendants of the old language or (languages) and not of Prakrit or Sanskrit, which come much later. Of course, there is no proof. With all due respect to the learned efforts of many dedicated scholars, the matter is still open

[@mohasat01]

@@riazhassan6570 A western scholar considered Punjabi to be derived from Hindi (and its earlier versions). It's why there is a good similarity between Hindi and Punjabi. Forget the script, it is the language that's related. (Sorry, no reference since it's been a while since I read that)

[@riazhassan6570]

@@mohasat01 Another Western scholar (Bailey) considered Urdu (and therefore its relative Hindi) to be a descendant of Old Punjabi as it might have been spoken in the eleventh century in and around the Lahore region. Nobody really knows. There were probably several threads in the tapestry. The fallout of the ancient Indus civilization should be considered. It stretches one’s credulity to think that it vanished with no lingering linguistic influences and no cultural debris

[@TheLionFarm]

2:05 all written languages came to assistance about the same time after the dispersal of the people after the division of languages which even on the "out-of-africa" scale all happened at the same time

[@entropyshade2120]

Thank you for this lecture. Super informative

[@mohamedariff144]

I am a graduate of UW Madison, a prof of Finance. I am seeing this after one year of posting. What a marvellous posting that clears so many doubts i had for 40 years. TQ prof at Madison, i adore your objective work compared with what rubbish some "scholars" based in India attribute Hinduism as originating in Harappa- MohanjoDaro. Nothing can be far from truth. Hinduism came with the Aryan migration from steppes near Ural mountains at the time of last mini Ice Age starting around 3 to 4000 years ago. Harappa is dated 2000 years before the mini Ice Age. May be truth needs to be told by my beloved UW scientist loud and clear. There are two professors in India who claim Hinduism and advanced civilization was thete 50000 years ago. Bull feathers, homo sapiens were just beginning tp use language 46000 years ago, let alone be advanced society in India could not be a different specie! Neanderthals was gone when homo sapiens were spreading across the globe from Kenya. Dear prof pkease make your evidence based reply to (i) Hinduism as we knew from Aryan invasion (probable they brought some disease as did caucasians that wiped huge population in New Old). So, (ii) Harappa-Moenjadaro predates Aryan, so it should be early dravidians whose effort to stop at Battle of Padians in 220 BC failed, so the Aryan Ashoka's prigeny could defeat more dravidians by 218AD ruling a Hindu empire of abiut 80% of subcontinent. You can post your view. Thank you prof for the objective clarity you have brought in a one hour lecture. A South Asia born scholar living in Australia. June 2022.

[@tommykarlberg]

10:06 "Two sorts of fish. Captured or harpooned with spear" ? And the picture is the seller I guess. Just guessing ;)

[@58prad]

An excellent insight

[@djallalnamri1]

and what about Iran ?

[@sachinrathi5358]

If you want to know who were the inhabitants of indus Valley ..search gond tribal culture..of India ..it was their civilization..whose Rituals are same followed by them shown on indus seals

[@YogeshKumar-rp9sb]

Kuch bhi

[@sachinrathi5358]

@@YogeshKumar-rp9sb tu hi Gyani hai ..ha

[@YogeshKumar-rp9sb]

@@sachinrathi5358 Tu to odiya hai na be🤔

[@sachinrathi5358]

@@YogeshKumar-rp9sb na bhai me to Haryanvi hun ..or agar debate krni to sahi tarah kar ...sala kisi ka Darr ni marra

[@kaamdev810]

It cant be tribal culture...it was an advanced cuvilization..

[@michaelwoodsmccausland5633]

Very close to the Beakers arrival in Ire/ Scotia !

[@realmonis64]

Great work. Just one point. Many sites are located in pakistan where there has been little or no excavations since the 1970s .there is so much more to discover.

[@pinxtownington4645]

Sir , enough is being done about it by Indian government in countries like Vietnam, Cambodia, but don't get press as it not need worthy

[@joedias7946]

Idealogy plays a large part in research and investigation. Certain idealogies would consider these haram and pay not much attention to these civilizations that is why they are ignored.

[@slowknife2873]

@@joedias7946 That wasn't the case 40 years ago, sadly a islamist dictator took over pakistan and brainwashed the people to forget their ancient history and focus on the islamic one which led to Pakistanis having identity crisis and modern day indians claiming the history of pakistanis ancestors

[@dreamadventure8220]

​@@joedias7946True not only Indus but Buddhist heritages greatly ignored by Pakistan

[@devannayar6456]

Could it be these do not represent alphabets or language at all but numerals ? It could be numbers or representing a set of numbers. Something like the Roman numerals.

[@RajshekherGarikapati]

Didn't get a clue about your method of dating?

[@eugenestandingbear6516]

Very good presentation . Excellent. Thank you.

[@paulbennett772]

Excellent contribution. 1 Surely it's not being suggested that there actually was a monocerotic animal? The representations are simply in profile. 2 The symbols could be merely a form of shorthand or aide-memoire, especially if used only by an elite. 3 Later occurrence of symbols without animal motifs, rather than signifying no desire to be associated with the animal, could be because the motif is no longer needed, due to familiarity with the text. 4 Climate change definitely DOES cause collapse of civilisations!

[@christopherellis2663]

Monoceros, unicorn or Rhinoceros?

[@ArrowBast]

@@christopherellis2663 Auroch-( ancestral to Taurine bulls) , it had 2 horns like antelopes do , the profile view obscures the other horn. The body looks sleek like Nilgai , but the horns are definitively of wild Taurine cattle. Some Yajurvedic rites of aspiring Kings involved raiding wild cattle with lassoe and then gathering them. Some of these captured cattle were sacrificed in the Rajasuya Yagna to consecrate the ruler of a small principality.

[@ArrowBast]

right its Supported by geological data indicating a prolonged failure of Indian Monsoon system in Western India between 2200 and 1900 BC - likely the 2.2 Kya Bond Event - the cooling may have been caused by a major volcanic eruption - maybe as far away as iceland or as close by as Indonesia.

[@JitenderSingh-yo9pq]

They forgot about punjab Ropar. Please include that too

[@pranays]

he does in the lecture where he talks about the cities he shows maps and everything. Also in the one about produced goods.

[@faithlesshound5621]

A wonderful lecture. I felt my knowledge of the Indus Valley Culture advance by leaps and bounds over the course of the hour, without intrusion of the usual rhetoric about Aryans and Dravidians. I did not realise that the IVC itself stopped using writing nine centuries before its end, and that some images disappeared at the same time, which suggests a change of ruling elite or (I suggest) religion, at a time when religion and politics were probably intertwined. Since the material culture carried on, we perhaps should not blame the dreaded Aryan invaders. The increase in numbers of symbols in the late period reminds me that something like that happened to Egyptian, so that (I presume) writing became once more inaccessible to the common man. Something like the IVC's loss of writing may have happened in ancient Greece, when the culture that used the Linear B syllabary was overwhelmed by invasion. Their script seems to have been used by storekeepers (clerks/clerics?) in the royal palace, who presumably perished or switched to other work. It was several centuries before Greek writing was re-invented, this time on an alphabetic model based on Phoenician. A limited version of that may have happened after Christianity was established in the Roman empire in the 4th century AD. There was no invasion, but the ruling class changed religion. Pagan learning was banned, and pagans could not teach. That must be when knowledge of the different sacred languages used in the empire and their scripts (Etruscan, Egyptian, Babylonian and Sumerian) was lost. It was suggested that the IVC may have also had texts written on perishable materials such as palm leaves which they placed in the box-shaped inscribed containers (like Jewish tefillin?). Unfortunately the Indus Valley's climate would not preserve such things like the Egyptian desert does, but might they turn up in an Afghan cave or in the Thar desert?

[@davidbenyehuda7618]

Indus valley was land of Hebrews this is what they have hidden for centuries about many of the civilizations of the past, but we are learning more about this every day In 2021 all things shall be revealed. Shalom

[@faithlesshound5621]

@@davidbenyehuda7618 Somebody should make a case for the Indus Valley people's having been Chinese. Let's see if the current emperor of China uses that to claim ancestral rights of ownership over Pakistan and Oman.

[@acpatel9491]

@@faithlesshound5621 Ha..., Ha...! Befitting reply to David Ben Yehuda.

[@acpatel9491]

Finally a comment that is worth reading. It always baffles me that there is a material cultural connection got carried on as you have said, but no linguistic writing connection! What boggles my mind is that I don't see or hear about any connection with Sanskrit!!! India is vast and extremely diverse. There should be in some tribal form it may have some representative connection somewhere. I am also inclined to think as you have said that latter part of declining writing in hard evidences may have been replaced by more fragile yet versatile form of writing material like palm leaves and language itself may have more evolved at that point to put it on those stiff writing vehicles.

[@knightcrooked]

This question is to the professor Kenoyer presenting his work here. Does Yajna Devam’s work hold any merit? It seems scientific - reproducible and falsifiable. And he seems to have mapped all the Indus Script characters to Devanagari alphabets and is able to read all the inscriptions found so far. He starts by testing all the languages and against the well known decryption algorithms and Sanskrit is the only that fits as far as sensible interpretation of the script goes. His conclusion is that Brahmi is just standardization of Indus script and Indus script can be thought of as proto-Brahmi or a precursor to Brahmi script.

[@pisquared1827]

@Decipher Linear A Now You seem to be out of touch about archeology and recent scientific findings relating to the IVC. You really do need to do some research on these before coming up with a statement like you have made. A lexical analysis of Harappan text has proven beyond any doubt that Indus Valley Script is a phonetic script, and not picture writing - not by me but by a language expert. There are three facts on which this is based. 1. the IVC characters are too simple (ie. not enough different characters to form a language if they were picture writing. 2. Lexical analysis shows there is too much repetition of characters to be picture writing. 3. The clincher is a statistical lexical analysis of IVC text in the Indus Valley was compared with IVC script writing found in the Middle East sites. These a consistently different occurrence of the different characters in the Middle East script as compared to the Indus Valley scripts. What this proves is that the Middle East script that used the same script characters were in a different language from the Indus Valley text but used the same phonetic characters. If it was picture writing or if it was the same language the relative occurrence and order of the characters would not show the consistent difference that it did. The IVC text is mostly short, and seem to be mostly receipts of sales of goods - which would explain why they are short. Some of the symbols seem to be logos - like an Apple logo on a computer, and these may represent the trader or the city from which the product is sourced. Some symbols have been identified as unit symbols. The 'meen' (fish) symbol seems to be a unit of weight as Middle Eastern texts seem to corroborate this. The flask symbol seems to be a measure of liquid volume, and the wheat like symbol seems to a measure of bulk dry volume. Also certain symbols appear to represent numbers - the IVC civilization used a binary system of weights for measuring indivisible quantities of weight (eg. weight of gold jewelry, and a decimal system of measures for volume and bulk weight measurements (a binary system uses the minimum number of weights to measure an indivisible weight, and a decimal system uses the minimum number of scoops or flasks to measure volumes or bulk measures because you can use your fingers to count and reuse the flasks or scoops). This is from weights and measuring implements found. The lexical analysis also indicates that the IVC wrote down numbers in a similar way to what we do now (eg. decimal, binary and hexadecimal). What they seem to have done was to write down value digits for the weights of scoop size and count in order of magnitude - which seems to be the origin of our current decimal and binary digital number systems, but they have not managed to figure out the direction of the ordering (ie. whether bigendian or littleendian). They have figured out the direction of writing of the IVC script though (right to left) from the fact that the characters start out properly spaces on the right, but runs out of space sometimes and becomes crammed closer on the left. Basically there is a lot that can be deduced from what we do know about the IVC even if it is a lot less than we know of other more recent civilizations.

[@patshelby9285]

Thought provoking. Thank you.

[@patshelby9285]

@Joe Bln who is keeping them from looking? Sic the artists on IVC and let them render their insights. They, also, will be filtered through what is known and assumed. I have been blown away over the last decade by new methods of approach to unknown languages. I have been reading science fiction for close to eighty years (if you allow Flash Gordon Sunday funnies in the early forties), but I have only recently begun to believe it might indeed be possible to render algorithms to translate unknown languages given a decent sampling.

[@Atilla963]

Gene D. Matlock - What Strange Mystery Unites the Turkish Nations, India, Catholicism, and Mexico?

[@mathewpanamkat2595]

Let's rely on Linguistic evidence, genomic evidence, and then finally the DNA evidence put forth by 93 scientists recently. The overwhelming view is that IV was a Dravidian civilization.

[@दीपकनागर-ज6द]

Still indus script is undesifered. And how will you prove by genetics that Indus valley people spoke Dravidian languages.

[@दीपकनागर-ज6द]

Brahui people speaks Dravidian language but they aren't Dravidian by genetics. Because they have west asian and central Asian ancestory. They have R1a1

[@bulu9214]

Dravid is a recent name. Better name would be southern indian. IVC is a civilization of all south Asians.

[@दीपकनागर-ज6द]

@@bulu9214 right

[@दीपकनागर-ज6द]

@@bulu9214 but over proud Tamilians think Indus valley civilization only belongs to them

[@manichaean1888]

There was, probably, some forms of writing in BMAC and Jiroft civilizations

[@ArvindLeoPereira]

A drought on the sarasvati river caused the change

[@beachboy922]

If these seals were a form of receipt or currency, it could explain why more characters were added in later periods as more and different types of goods were traded.

[@ckpnair9508]

Perhaps the writing media could not survive underground OR Books might have already migrated to mind as in Vedic period (or the Vedic period might have started) OR The literature might have survived in the great ancient libraries only to be destroyed later by the Western invading imbecile bruits. We do not have to devine our answers. Search in Budhist monasteries (of Tibet etc.) may be worthwhile.

[@pranays]

no evidence of paper writing that early in history. These are 4000-1500bce thousands of years before buddhism existed . Pay better attention

[@tonyug113]

so basically lots of evidence for a script to identify people and positions and groups and regionality and numbers - surely a must for a civilisation of that size and power - but only short scripts and no evidence it was used for storytellling or messaging between people - which is not a must to hold the civilisation together as that can be done orally or via seal 'validated' messengers.

[@raykerkhove2972]

He mentioned some seals seem to have been for documents on palm leaf or similar to send between people thus there may have been messaging

[@gangadharhiremath7306]

The balanced tone of academic narrative is appealing to me. My only objection is for the use of word saraswati in the context of Harappan culture.Your acceptance of that word validates the false narrative of Hindutwa Zeelots

[@pranays]

It's the name of the river many cities were built on . Maybe you're the racist pushing a narrative?

[@geassamvs426]

Who is pushing a narrative here? Are you insecure because he uses the Ancient Word for a River? Cope harder, Lots of IVC sites were built on Sarasvati banks.

[@gangadharhiremath7306]

@@geassamvs426 Insecure? No,but definitely concerned.There is no consensus that the so called dried up Ghaggar is Saraswati.All settlements in the region of Harappan culture can be classified as pre or post Harappan. Saraswati river name is brought in to the fore by the Hindutwa zealots because Indus has become essentially a Pakistani trophy post partition.Saraswati hardly passes the muster of academic regour.It is political.

[@geassamvs426]

@@gangadharhiremath7306 there is literally consensus between both AMTian scholars and OITian scholars in the past, the argument only started when you guys realized that Sarasvati is a contradiction to your hypothesis. Even Max Muller thinks it's Sarasvati lmfao, there is tons and tons of literature supporting this topic. What the fuck are you talking about? What Pakistan?

[@gangadharhiremath7306]

@@geassamvs426 Those who invoke Max Mullar are certainly living in cave age.Nothing more to discuss with those who think it fit to use F**k in their language.Shows your nervousness. Saraswati is an innovation of Sanghis of 80's & 90's.

[@sundararajanpt7158]

Sir i think by closely observing the brahmi script and harappa and mohenjodaro script on indus valley civilization and our historian and archeologist are wrongly pointed out that it was the script in scripted on the caves and stones by seeing closely and observing it is the line diagram of a human they are performing exercise and yoga and some other places it is the line diagram of human daily activities like exercise and yoga and line poischure going for hunting and armies used and dog's and hunts like birds and kitchen wares medicinal plants and swimming and sleeping poischure and things they used etc. By observing clearly it is not a script it is a daily activity of human being. So request the architectural department to look into the matter and through some light on that after complite observation and it cannot be a script but it is a line diagram of human beings they used material and animals they live with. Hoping to get clear picture on that.

[@user-lp9vz6lu3t]

indus valley was a vedic cosmopolitan society with people living of many faiths but the state was runned by vedic people

[@gluebox]

It was not Vedic. It was Dravidian

[@user-lp9vz6lu3t]

@@gluebox vedic or Dravidian is the same they are not different from each other. their ethics , morals , values and philosophy is same

[@gluebox]

@@user-lp9vz6lu3t Such was not always the case so I wouldn't call it the same. The Dravidian languages and culture far precedes what we now know as Vedic. Vedic culture of course absorbed many local deities and elements of the indigenous traditions.

[@user-lp9vz6lu3t]

@@gluebox vedas authors was Dravidian rishis too our gods too was Dravidian we are not seprate vedic or Dravidian we one single unit with one common philosophy/divinity which have many braches .

[@greaterbharat4175]

@@gluebox is their differences in Dravidians? The oldest Dravidian scriptures that we can understand has reference of all vedic gods and period sangam period has lot of story teaching from vedas

[@wonderlandrockopera]

A lot of stuff is made to stamp or even roll an ink, native brewed ink on to a textile. Stamps.

[@log4john]

By the look of it IVC script is neither Dravidian or Aryan!! But, as we now know, IVC is pre-vedic and considering Dravidian languages are completely indigenous (no links to outside India), its highly possible that they spoke some form of early proto-Dravidian!!

[@ckpnair9508]

Dravidian languages, script and words, especially Tamil and Malayalam are directly connected to English, Arabic snd Camorunian.

[@दीपकनागर-ज6द]

But it's not sure that Indus valley civilization was pre vedic.

[@log4john]

@@दीपकनागर-ज6द There is a lot of evidence already!!

[@दीपकनागर-ज6द]

@@log4john but there are lots of evidence against Aryan migration theory

[@दीपकनागर-ज6द]

@@log4john for example sarswati river dried up around 1900BC but sarswat river was sacred and mighty river which was several kilometres wide

[@mohan1997]

The evolution of writing seems to be directly proportional to the level of the intellectual evolution of the societies linked to them.

[@ronhak3736]

There is no scientific basis to call the Ghaggar-Hakra river as Sarasvati river.

[@rammani7170]

Entire books have been written which explore evidence that precisely point to this. There is no other physical river on the planet that fits the Rig Vedic description of Sarasvati.

[@anuradham8435]

Please do your research. There are multiple books and papers which have proven the course of the Saraswati..also, the indus civilization is the sarawati civilization since most of the sites are on the banks of the saraswati.

[@acpatel9491]

Ghaggar-Hakra can fit in to Ghaghra, while Sarasvati was the mightiest river at that time. Are you aware of any Indian Old literature and any recent satellite images?

[@daneshwarihammond2446]

There is Iran prior to Messopotemia Why Messopotemia is adjacent to Harappa ?

[@suthamathysaravanan489]

I don’t think it’s a unicorn....it a two horned animal

[@christianmolick8647]

Agreed, but even with that it is recognizable and visually consistent imagery that may influence identifications.

[@ArrowBast]

@@christianmolick8647 Its an auroch or an extinct antelope like eland - the ridged horns. the unicorn is just a mistake of profile view. Its a sacrificial seal of some ancient bull sacrifice tokens.

[@pisquared1827]

The latest lexical statistical analysis of the script seems to indicate that these were receipts, and the text on them indicated quantities and commodities traded, and the entity issuing the receipts. This also explains why the tests were so short and has so little textual variation. The icons may have represented the state, town, or corporate entity issuing the receipts in return for receiving the goods. The writing went from right to left - deduced from the fact that the writers sometimes ran out of space at the end of the line, and this always happened at the left hand side. Some of the symbols seem to indicate units of measurements - for example the deep U shaped symbol which is very common seems to be a measure of volumetric measurement. The Indus valley civilization used a binary system of weights and numbers (base 2), as well as octal (base 8) and decimal (base 10), and the fish symbols seem to indicate the binary weight measures making up the weight. These fish symbols have various accent marks with the fish indicating 1, the fish with one type of accent representing 2, another 4, another 8 etc. The fish symbols were also always in a specific order, with each occurring only once or never, again emphasizing that they are a binary number, but since zero as a place marker hadn't been invented yet, they had to use the accents on the fish symbols to indicate the digit. Effectively the numbers showed the binary weight measures used on the scale in order. Other numeric symbols such as the tally marks seem to show an octal counting system. Some symbols seem to indicate the commodity - eg. symbols resembling ears of wheat, cattle, units of labour etc. Therefore the mini clay tablets produced would probably be something like you would see today on a food or package label, or shop receipt (34kg duram wheat packed by Dholera State Wheat Corp, or 2 number of 5 liter jars of manuka honey sold by Harappa Commodity Trading Corp.). Given that what we have actually found were mostly seals, the impression of which would be impressed into clay tablets, probably more script could have been added by hand on the tablets before being fired. The larger clay tablets would have perhaps been kept in duplicate to record a contract (as in Sumer), and destroyed once the contract was fulfilled - hence we don't find too many things that contain the impressions of these seals. The Harappan script seems to be a full phonetic alphabet rather than like Chinese where a symbol represents a word. The evidence for this is found in ancient Sumerian archaeological discoveries where the Harappan alphabet has been used to write down Middle Eastern spoken languages. The evidence of this is again from lexical statistical analysis of Harappan writing in which statistical analysis of the frequency and order of the symbols shows that they do not represent the same language spoken in the Indus valley. Given this, it is pretty certain that the Indus Valley Script wrote much longer texts - which were perhaps written on palm leaves (as was common for records in India), or on paper or parchment, and these did not survive except in transcribed form. It is also likely that this script was different in order to make it quicker and easier to write on the other medium - as for example how common written Egyptian differed from formal Egyptian hieroglyphics in temples and monuments, or how Scandinavian rune characters changed from the Roman alphabet to allow the letters to be more easily carved into stone or wood. Why did the Harappan script stop from being used? Probably due to the collapse of the centralized trading system which was present or the dissolution of the organisations issuing the receipts. If the inter-city river trading links between the Harappan cities and with the Middle East were severed by the drying up of the Saraswathi river system, then perhaps the big stamp issuing authorities went out of business, and trade was carried out in a decentralized way by small road caravans which bartered goods instead. Small decentralized caravan traders can't issue sealed international receipts or engage in international trade contracts because nobody would trust some unknown person who turns up with goods on the backs of a bullock cart with anything other than barter of goods. This may also explain Indo-European languages became predominant in Northern India after the collapse of the Indus Valley civilization. The DNA analysis of a skeleton from the Indus Vally city in Rakhigarhi (in modern Haryana) which shows that the Indus Valley people were most closely related to South Indians. There is a Dravidian Language spoken in modern Baluchistan, which is probably a remnant of the original Indus Valley cililization language, and the Dravidian languages were probably therefore contiguous across in western India, down to Southern India in ancient times. The Indus Valley Civilization was based in crop farming and river irrigation. They were sedentary city dwellers and definitely not nomadic pastoral farmers. There were other people/cultures/tribes in India at that time who were associated with pastoral farming - namely nomadic Aryan speaking pastoral herders. They would have lived away from the intensively farmed river irrigated land, and graze herds on rough uncultivated pasture, moving from place to place in search of fresh pasture and watering holes. Who would take over Indus valley trade once the sea/river routes collapsed in the Saraswathi region? The answer is of course, the Aryan speaking nomadic pastoral people - they had the beasts of burden, they knew the routes, and contacts along the routes. This would have resulted in the people of the Indus Valley Civilization learning to speak the Aryan language of the region (as it would have become the language of international trade (as English is now) and eventually adopting it in large regions. It would have resulted in adoption of some of the religion and customs of the Aryan speaking people of India (as the transfer of goods would also be associated with transfer of religious and cultural ideas), and also in intermarriage. This is probably the origin of Hinduism as an amalgamation of their religious beliefs. Hinduism in its current form only appears after this, although it is clear that symbols such as the swastika, number systems, and much of the stories retold in Hindu mythology and scripts, including references to the Saraswathi river system comes from the Indus Valley Civilization, while the pastoral aspects of later Hinduism and Hindu mythology do not seem to come from the city centered, sedentary, crop farming and manufacturing/trading civilization of the Indus Valley Civilization. The profession based caste system in India probably originates in the Indus Valley Civilization. Rigid caste systems were present in most parts of the world until very recently - for example freemen and surfs in Anglo-Saxon England, and the boyars and peasants in Russia, which were no less rigid than the caste system in India until very recently. The difference in India is how many different castes there are in India, and how they are tied to professions. In my opinion, that type of class system could only have happened or have been enforced in a society where there were a large number of professions and a high level of centralized organization. That in turn could only have have happened in the Indus Valley Civilization. Think about it - how many different types of jobs would you have in a group of nomadic pastoral herdsmen? The answer is very few compared to a complex society like the Indus Valley city states with farmers, labourers, traders, artisans, craftsmen, record keepers, boat builders, miners, river navigators, fishermen, builders etc. How would you enforce such an elaborate caste system on a small, decentralized groups of nomadic peasant herdsmen over who you have no direct control? The distribution of caste in the population is also an indication of where the Indian caste system came from. Question - when do you get the most opportunity to change caste in a rigidly fixed caste system? Answer - when the caste system is first adopted. In the Indus Valley civilization, the highest caste would be reserved for the rulers, or those owning land or money who would make up a very small proportion of the population and would want to keep it that way. Hence, you would expect the Indus Valley Civilization to have the smallest number of high castes. On the other hand, if the job based caste system is adopted by a pastoral group which didn't have a job based caste system previously but which had say three classes - say cattle owner, cattle herder, and caravan trader, then you would expect the most influential class to adopt the highest caste - say with cattle owners becoming brahmins, and the other two classes forced to adopt lower castes. Bear in mind that these nomads cannot have their caste imposed on them by the Indus Valley Civilization since are independent groups of people who roam around outside of their control - they can only have caste imposed on them by their own societies.

[@IWillHaveThePastaThanks]

What??? There is so so much here that is wrong, I don’t know where to begin.

[@pisquared1827]

@@IWillHaveThePastaThanks It is obvious you don't know where to begin, but what is it you claim is wrong with my postulation?

[@IWillHaveThePastaThanks]

@@pisquared1827 You are right; I don’t know where to begin. I have to choose one thing to start with. “The Harappa script seems to be a full phonetic alphabet.... “ How do you arrive at this? You complete this sentence with “rather [than] like Chinese where a symbol represents a word.” Those two systems are not alike (according to your descriptions of the two that you have just given) and besides, the Chinese script is not as straightforward as one character representing one word. Therefore, there are problems here with what you postulate about both these scripts.

[@pisquared1827]

@@IWillHaveThePastaThanks You seem to be out of touch about archeology and recent scientific findings relating to the IVC. You really do need to do some research on these before coming up with a statement like you have made. A lexical analysis of Harappan text has proven beyond any doubt that Indus Valley Script is a phonetic script, and not picture writing - not by me but by a language expert. There are three facts on which this is based. 1. the IVC characters are too simple (ie. not enough different characters to form a language if they were picture writing. 2. Lexical analysis shows there is too much repetition of characters to be picture writing. 3. The clincher is a statistical lexical analysis of IVC text in the Indus Valley was compared with IVC script writing found in the Middle East sites. These a consistently different occurrence of the different characters in the Middle East script as compared to the Indus Valley scripts. What this proves is that the Middle East script that used the same script characters were in a different language from the Indus Valley text but used the same phonetic characters. If it was picture writing or if it was the same language the relative occurrence and order of the characters would not show the consistent difference that it did. The IVC text is mostly short, and seem to be mostly receipts of sales of goods - which would explain why they are short. Some of the symbols seem to be logos - like an Apple logo on a computer, and these may represent the trader or the city from which the product is sourced. Some symbols have been identified as unit symbols. The 'meen' (fish) symbol seems to be a unit of weight as Middle Eastern texts seem to corroborate this. The flask symbol seems to be a measure of liquid volume, and the wheat like symbol seems to a measure of bulk dry volume. Also certain symbols appear to represent numbers - the IVC civilization used a binary system of weights for measuring indivisible quantities of weight (eg. weight of gold jewelry, and a decimal system of measures for volume and bulk weight measurements (a binary system uses the minimum number of weights to measure an indivisible weight, and a decimal system uses the minimum number of scoops or flasks to measure volumes or bulk measures because you can use your fingers to count and reuse the flasks or scoops). This is from weights and measuring implements found. The lexical analysis also indicates that the IVC wrote down numbers in a similar way to what we do now (eg. decimal, binary and hexadecimal). What they seem to have done was to write down value digits for the weights of scoop size and count in order of magnitude - which seems to be the origin of our current decimal and binary digital number systems, but they have not managed to figure out the direction of the ordering (ie. whether bigendian or littleendian). They have figured out the direction of writing of the IVC script though (right to left) from the fact that the characters start out properly spaces on the right, but runs out of space sometimes and becomes crammed closer on the left. Basically there is a lot that can be deduced from what we do know about the IVC even if it is a lot less than we know of other more recent civilizations.

[@pranays]

You need better evidence than that to make such a claim. Statistical analysis my a

[@hegel5816]

There were 5 indo aryan tribes which were united under one people namely ya dus,druhyus,anus,purus,turvasas.... And Manu was the progenitor of these 5 tribes...as were mentioned in Rig and Atharva vedas...

[@ALangArAA]

Vedas are fake contents to study about history..

[@hegel5816]

@@ALangArAA Yes ..But may contain some truths ... We can’t throw it aside..

[@ALangArAA]

@@hegel5816 i don't think so.. sorry

[@acpatel9491]

@@ALangArAA You are the most fixated person I encountered. Not even slight openness, hence I don't see any evolutionary progress here. Please don't reply because I am not even considering a reply or engagement with you. Just letting you know once in a hope of a progress in your life.

[@ALangArAA]

@Khushal Singh I don see any connection between harmandir singh and veda in rice bag.. have you?

[@casparcoaster1936]

I beleive the seals only became necessary as population increased exponentially. Oral is memory, namarhupa, name & form. The standard for transmission of shaman knowledge is sound, writing was only for idenitifying ownership of private property, tsymbols revealing the family who the property, real or transititory, belongs to, or, belonged to. Private property began as familial, not individual, till war and kingship became common with growing populations.

[@prashinrao4931]

Wishful thinking my friend, they had a written system. Except it has been deciphered yet.