The Isle | How could Apexes work in Evrima

The topic of Apexes in Evrima has been on the rise for the past few weeks ever since the announcement that both trike and rex are actively being worked on and planned to be released between update 7 and 8.
Unsurprisingly that information was received by the community with a lot of scepticism and concern, not only due to the game’s current state (although update 6 was a significant step forward) but also because of the additional statements made by the developers on the matter.
Many times I discussed about this on the channel, however today that wont be the topic I will be addressing, at least not entirely; this week I will showcase a different way to design this problematic tier of characters in a way that retains its initial philosophy without possessing the awful side affects that have been haunting the isle for so many years.
Hope you all enjoy the video :)
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X'Zaguer Discord Server - / discord
X'Zaguer Patreon - / xzaguer
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Chapters:
Intro 0:00
Main Content 1:45
Outro 11:27
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#TheIsle #TheIsleEvrima #gamedesign #ConceptAnalysis #GameAnalysis #XZaguer #theislenews #pathoftitans #gamedesign #theislenews #dinosaurgames #theislegameplay #dinosaur #dinosaursvideos

[@VinnyUnion]

How they could coexist is none of your concern.

[@Spag419]

Sounds like something the devs would say 😂

[@seilamujkanovic3478]

Award for the biggest troll 👏

[@cosmicreef5858]

This comment makes no sense

[@Dacentrurus]

pin of shame

[@narukami597]

@@seilamujkanovic3478 nope this is extremely weak and obvious trolling. Or he is serious and has mental disability.

[@deelodilo8536]

someone get this man on the dev team

[@nickrodriguez1759]

Ironic since the devs hate him

[@TheRealCARCHARO]

​@@nickrodriguez1759they do?

[@scottthesmartape9151]

@@TheRealCARCHARO yes

[@ghaniKSW2]

@@nickrodriguez1759 they hate everyone that doesn't lick their ass so what else is new

[@TheRealCARCHARO]

@@scottthesmartape9151 why? When did they state that

[@peque7426]

In real life, T Rex spent its first 14 years being mid-level (3 tons) and then, in the last few years, fully grown. They should do that with the Apex dinosaurs in the game. That weigh less than 3 tons until exceeding 70% of the growth bar.

[@Sonstbenannt]

Marry me.

[@haroldotrotter9148]

@@Sonstbenannt kzbin.info/www/bejne/nJS9iZmld5eZbZI

[@RWDOWNPOUR]

​@@Sonstbenanntwth

[@alunaticwithashotgun9840]

That's what a lot of people including myself suggested, I hope they do it that way because it'd actually make them harder to grow by giving mid tiers more time to take one down.

[@bustavonnutz]

"The last few years" i.e. another 15 years on average being a full-sized adult.

[@Misto_deVito6009]

One cool way that being an apex would be challenging is having an incentive for killing apexes while theyre still young. Either by having them be an diets or by having perks that reward you for killing them. People will kill small apexes anyway out of spite or fear of what they'll become but having a real reason to that benefits you in the process would be incredible.

[@DeltaF396]

Perks for killing them would be a bad idea if you ask me, as it makes people fully go out of their way to do it and would likely make growing apexes generally unfun to the general playerbase.

[@axel6405j]

@@DeltaF396apex’s should be for the better players not for the general player base I think.

[@intotheisland]

@@axel6405j People who do reach full adult of an apex, have truly played their cards right and proven that they do have the skills to play one. I bet it wont be easy to grow them, as it is already difficult to grow the already existing dinos. As for the perks. The only perks for killing a juvi apex, or even stumble upon a corpse would be if its on your diet, like any other dino. Don't really see what other perks it could give, aside from the already existing perks for having the right diet.

[@josh-jk8fr]

Giving players perks would only encourage afk growing as far as possible from others

[@Mich_as]

Hell yea! Id love to see that

[@frumpkin9282]

One thing to keep in mind with apexes is that you can't make their nutrient drain so harsh that they become unable to do activities such as nesting. Or if their nutrient drain is severe, their stomach should also be large so that they can 'fill up' and last long enough to do nesting.

[@viral4983]

Slower nutrient drain but harsher penalties for bad nutrients maybe? I think nutrient drain in general needs to be slower I shouldnt be out of nutrients in an hour if it takes 6 to grow somethin

[@PlaceriasIF]

It would have been better to add Acrocanthus and Parasaulophus, they are close to the Apex, but they do not exceed it.

[@EasyAL_YT]

Acro was the true apex in legacy... if played right, it was unkillable. Could escape all dangers while easily being able to catch all its prey.

[@beefie101]

parasaurolophus would be amazing

[@kenshinhimura9387]

​@@EasyAL_YTlol no. Acro was a joke. I could solo then with Utah and allo easily. Rex wiped the floor with them.

[@EasyAL_YT]

@@kenshinhimura9387 Please tell me how you solo an acro with an allo/Utah... it has enough turn radius to stop both from tail riding and has much better damage and health than both. While also having crazy speed and ambush.

[@EasyAL_YT]

@kenshinhimura9387 Also rex couldn't wipe the floor with them as acro has a sprint speed as fast as a rexes ambush. The acro player would have to be unaware.

[@smefour]

Right at the end of this video you make some great recommendations on how to make having an Apex for only those with real skill, not just time, well done, hope the Devs see this

[@oodz1297]

I agree (The video hasn't started yet)

[@lordchristopher148]

Yes

[@Phantomenace1]

🗿

[@TheePotatoGamer]

Honestly, even if the apex’s stays are overpowered, if they are too slow they would be useless and unplayable. The dev team really needs to find a balance. They need to be fun to play as and feel fair to play against

[@No_name8374]

If every apex is slow then that’s the balance sense otherwise they just kill everything in there path np sense they quite literally become the perfect predator without that draw back

[@bigsmokes2708]

Well that’s why Rex is a ambush predator

[@intotheisland]

Pretty much all dinos, except for like anky, trike, and perhaps a shant(?), can outrun an apex. But that is if you see them first. But i do agree with you, apexes should be fun to play and non-apex dinos should fair them. People call them overpowered. In some cases they are. Example being broken in legacy where they could easily kill a trike, shant, anky, etc. By just simply riding the tail. In another case, midtiers or lowtiers like utah, allo, cera, etc I could list a whole list. Only because an apex easily kills them or something it makes them OP? Well they do need to live up to the name of Apex, right? All players should know taking on an apex as any smaller dino, that one mess up and you become the food. ^^ Apex fights and hunts are a different story. I'd rather not judge the balance of apexes, since they aren't even out yet on Evrima and we're pretty much asuming their strength based on what devs have said and from what we know from Legacy. lol

[@RandomMackem3247]

I think the devs should make the ai more realistic by making them able to be ambushed cause u could be in a bush and they’d still run away

[@No_name8374]

The best way to balance apexes is to simply have obvious downsides with being a large and powerful creature similar to the downsides of playing a small agile creature. Making apexes trade speed and stamina for power and health already allowing half of the roster the advantage of just simply running away! Making apexes have to go for slower targets which means and apex’s success now entirely relies on there own combat abilities. And to expand on the diet idea proposed in this video! Similar to how gallis top speed is dependent on how many of its hexagons are filled the same will be applied with apexes we’re there special abilities are less effective with a good or great diet only being at full capability with a perfect diet. And there speed and stamina regen will also suffer with diets less than perfect. Though to give even more of and insensitive to hunt other players apexes should be given a “buff” if they consume the organs of creatures on there diet. This buff will basically be slower diet drain for whatever diet that organ held. This allows apexes to not have a entirely brutal time throughout there play through but still encourages them to get into life ending confrontations others don’t need to take. Now I know people say apexes should be cannibals! Tho I believe this shouldn’t be for every apex as mirror match ups can be some of the more easier fights in evirma which allows more easier meals for apexes. But I feel apexes should feel they should have other reasons to kill there own kind and this should be for territory and food! A apex max food should be high enough and there hunger drain should be quick enough we’re more than two apexes are not sustainable. As if a group of 4 Rexes want to work they would have to constantly hunt creatures the size of camara to comfortably live in a group otherwise the whole group ends up starving due to having to share with 3 other of there own species. Anyways this is my idea for how apexes should be feel free to say whatever u want just don’t be and ass.

[@RandomMackem3247]

Unless the apexes want to hunt boars cause doesn’t matter big u are they will run at u

[@No_name8374]

@@RandomMackem3247 well apart from the obvious “just don’t have boats on there diet” boars actually do run away from things bigger than it! I’ve seen boars run away from carnos and deinos before

[@RandomMackem3247]

@@No_name8374 so do boars just hate me cause even as an adult carno I was still getting chased and attacked by boars

[@magnarcreed3801]

That’s what the original was like. Unless you let any of the apexes get close, you could outrun them. People are just upset they have to pay attention and play realistically. Not able to fight an apex as a human sized dinosaur.

[@XxhalomagicxX]

I completely agree, I don't think the apexes should be so debuffed they're unplayable/ not fun. Their slow speed and stamina alone make them difficult to play.

[@gingertitan7372]

I'm not entirely sure how it would work but I think limiting the number of each species of apex can be on the server at a given time would be necessary. I know this would hinder players ability to play and test out the dinos but having 20 rexes roaming the map would have a big impact on any server

[@tcomee6579]

I am very concerned with the route they are going with Apexes. By putting them on unofficial only, they can put zero effort into making them balanced in any way for the ecosystem, and when people complain they can just say "well that is why its only on unofficial". It's a cheap copout, one that I think will severely hurt the long-term viability of the game.

[@texbed3806]

I would love to see a video about bush afking, perhaps a scent telling you if a player has been afk in a single spot for a long time would be neat.

[@youtubealt243]

Many would just afk on rocks or fake-afk to bait people in

[@maldambao6126]

I would add a system affecting stamina pool for that. dinos that are sedentary and afk grow a lot have less stamina, while active dinos have more. Quite simple but would be effective since stamina is used for several things. So sure, you could safely grow in a bush or rock, but when you become adult and inevitably face enemy players, you would struggle with the limited stamina and be naturally targeted more often. The problem would be finding an amount of time that feels fair, you shouldn't be punished for taking a break to brew some coffee or get some food irl, but if it takes too long the effects would be negligible.

[@borshelin]

I see the problem is not the afc, but what causes it - boring and long growth. Damn, I don't want to play boring gameplay, I'd rather sit in the bushes. if they remove the possibility of this with something like what you are suggesting and the game will be the same boring, it will not be cool.

[@EnderTIcerato]

​@@youtubealt243but in the case of apexes they wont jump so it's ok

[@muffin_cat4117]

im pretty sure the the devs have talked about muscle atrophy to keep players from being sat down in one spot for ages

[@georgefagan1351]

Cool idea. But I’d go another route. The diet system is already annoying for many players and ultimately, this won’t do much to prevent people from playing apexes anyway since most community servers have ways to get full grows. Instead, I’d like to see some kind of territory mechanic which would force apex players to fight each-other very often, and keep them from hoarding together in the most populated areas of the map.

[@intotheisland]

This is also something I've wanted to see. For both carnivores and herbis that is. For herbs there are certain spots that say produces all the diets they need in one place, or even a certain plant that grants them all the diets. One herd may reside there, or even one herbivore. Since some herbs are just naturally born to be territorial over valuable resources. When another herbivore comes along be it a herd or a solo, idk how it would be done but some sort of a duel. It could be to the death but would be better for the losing one to be chased off. As for the carnivores, they could have somewhat the same spots as the herb territory. The herbs have their valuable plants to be with, meanwhile the carnivores have them. Doesn't need to be directly on top of them, but ofc rather an area around them. As for the fight, it will mostly be the same, but ofc it will most likely lead to death unless the losing one manages to escape. Or if the players themselves choose this fight is over by letting the other go. Would really love for this to be added somewhere in the future. Would give players more things to do ^^

[@Mamotherium]

Imo one of the only things that's somewhat positive about introducing both trike and rex early on community servers is to kill the apex hype early on. See it like this: trike and rex is introduced early for community servers, updates after this only introduce more medium to small tier dinosaurs, and when they finally decide to introduce more apexes like shant and giga along with rex and trike on officials after the roster is more fleshed out, the apex hype won't be as strong as rather than if rex and trike wasn't introduced early on. The hype of the introduction of the new apexes later on would be significantly less than if the devs didn't introduce rex and trike early on, it would be like "Oh cool, a new apex with a different niche to rex/trike." and not "OH MY GOD, THE APEXES HAVE FINALLY ARRIEVED!" Saving both offical and community servers from being overpopulated by apexes in the future when the roster is finally fleshed out, this could also be prevented in another way, either by species limit per server. This however, will only work if AND only if the isle devs are wise in their decision making.

[@intotheisland]

That is true! As we see with the recent update of the 4 new playables. There would be tons of those species running about for at least a week or 2. Releasing apexes all together would have the same effect. So it would be nice to have apexes released more seperately along with perhaps a midtier or low tier. That way there would be two dinos that could balance a lil bit of what players play as.

[@Jefferson-ly5qe]

Correction from a bio nerd - elephants, rhinos and giraffes are not apex species. An apex species refers to a predator at the top of the food chain. None of those species are predators. Wolves and orcas are both examples of apex predators. I've seen people talking about trike as an apex species when they really just mean big. Good vid tho

[@d4vid551]

I’ve never seen someone mention this idea before : just add a limit to the amount of a certain species per server. Let’s say, you join an official, and you wanna play Rex. Only 10/100 players can play Rex at once per server for example, and you’d have to wait in a queue to play it. I feel like that’ll balance it a lot and even make the apex experience feel more rewarding and special

[@supremerevenant7699]

nah thats kinda stupid, 'cuz it's just like what the video said, having a full grown apex makes u seem like you've mastered the game. spending alot of time to grow an apex, just to not even be able to play it would be kinda stupid ngl

[@d4vid551]

@@supremerevenant7699 I mean dying in this game is pretty easy. A lot of people die very commonly. Just adding a queue to a dinosaur doesn’t seem like an issue, like waiting 5-10 minutes to play as a Rex for example.

[@Badlands_Joker]

@@d4vid551we all know you would be waiting a lot longer than that, get real.

[@raccon1007]

Yep hope they do something like this I don't want to see half the lobby being a rex or something like I don't want to play an apex just to be able to enjoy the game I prefer mid tiers anyway

[@beefie101]

the croc is already a apex and i guess u could say stego is bc it is the strongest in the game so far

[@alunaticwithashotgun9840]

I agree with how you think apexes should be like in evrima but honestly I don't understand why people reacted the way they did when the devs said apexes would be stronger in evrima. I mean, legacy apexes were kinda pathetic, mostly because pretty much every server took away their ability to fight back against anything that got behind them by taking away their ability to turn around and made the smallest carnivore in game the best thing at taking them down solo, but also apexes were quite easy to avoid too, I used to main Allo in legacy and all I had to do in order to not get killed by an apex was to pay attention to my surroundings and run away when I see one coming towards me in the distance, small and mid tiers could both outrun and outstam them so it was practically never a problem.

[@intotheisland]

Totally agree here. The moment people found a way to deal with em, was to pretty much do the tail riding. Ofc, I did that too. Only apex that pretty much could counter it would be spino due to the turning radius. But yes, apexes are indeed easy to run from as any small tiers or mids. Pay attention, remove yourself from the situation and your dino will still be alive. I do understand people wanna hunt apexes and all, but in my opinion it shouldn't be easy to do so. One slip up and ur dead. = Consequences for an attempt to kill an apex. But with good teamwork and good individual skill, I do see that some midtiers can take on an apex. If that sort of realistic gameplay aint to the taste, I would suggest playing Path of titans. You wont die instantly as anything smaller than an apex and you can heal up pretty fast.

[@alunaticwithashotgun9840]

@@intotheisland I agree, though in my opinion anything less than a skilled Allo pack should not be able to take an average apex player (this is hoping that mostly decent players are able to grow one to full adult)

[@intotheisland]

@@alunaticwithashotgun9840 Ye, I can agree with that too ^^.

[@kenshinhimura9387]

Apex dinos will be perfectly fine in evrima. They are slow and easy to hear coming. The only way you get killed by one is by being afk, literally not paying attention at all or deliberately trying to fight them

[@Slothdude0]

Maybe having apexes have a 4th diet slot would be interesting, either that can be filled with a short lasting normal diet type or introducing a super nutrient that requires them to travel around more. This could mean that apexes stats don’t have to be too much higher than medium but it means they’re customisable but also harder to get perfect diets

[@mamaluigigamer99]

Make apex’s also need certain animals to get certain dietary demands at different growth stages. Example: Juvi Rex could eat dryos and gallis for hexagon nutrient, whilst a sub rex would have to take on a tenonto or a diablo for hexagon

[@user-zb1jo2mj3n]

Think they should make Rex an ambush predator that hunts sub apexes and large mid tiers and when they pack up they take on bigger prey.

[@mr.cerato1581]

bro hell nah

[@Nezul]

I think Apexes should take longer, and fill different niches in each stage of life. Let's use a rex, as a hatchling they could hunt things like Hypsi's competing with Troodon and such, then as they grow, they start competing with Utah, then as they get a bit bigger they start competing with Carno and cera. Until they reach Full size where they then get their normal diet and begin playing their dinosaur for real.

[@lordchristopher148]

I won't big fish mosasaurus

[@rylandfrederick431]

Tbh, apexes should have a clear star buff between them and mid tiers. If you look at the sizes you can see that, tyrannosaurus weighed 8.8-10 tons. Allosaurus weighed 1.6 tons. In no world should even 2 allos be comparable. I feel like apexes should be much stronger, but they should also have to struggle way more, for instance there could be the diet system like you said, or a sort of quest system exclusive for apexes that requires them to do things to stay healthy. Also, a territory mechanic could work. Imagine a tyrannosaurus as an adult, it needs a territory so it's food and water requirements can be met, so the player will get buffs for finding shelter and patrolling their Territory, but they will also be challenged with fighting rival apexes and hunting. Also, the main reason apexes are quite a bit stronger than mid tiers is because most games don't add sub-apexes, which are the actual in between. Am example of this would be, rex(apex, 8-10 tons), tarbosaurus(sub apex 2-4 tons), and gorgosaurus(mid 1-2tons). But most games usually cut out the middle guy and lable the mid tier as a sub apex

[@youtubealt243]

The harder it is for mid tiers to kill an apex. The easier it should be for the environment to kill apexes and vice-versa. Only at most 10 carnivore apexes should comfortably exist at any one time (5 in water and 5 on land) without them wanting to kill eachother for food

[@UserNamedTenonto]

Pretty sure larger Allo specimens could reach almost 3 tons but yeah your point still stands

[@rylandfrederick431]

@@youtubealt243 I think more apexes could work, but yeah there needs to be a limited amount

[@rylandfrederick431]

@@UserNamedTenonto yes saurophaganax, which is sometimes synonemized with allosaurus maximus. Could reach 3 tons, but the type specimen and most allosaurus only reached 1.6-2 tons

[@youtubealt243]

@@rylandfrederick431 apexes should be rare, or if they’re common, less difficult to take down. Otherwise you end up with them being TOO controlling, and making life unfun for anyone that’s not an apex like in Legacy

[@3Kamera3]

4:55 the only apex i would make decently fast is giga

[@nicholassimmons6864]

This is a really good idea because if someone sees a apex predator they would know that they are on the top and keeps is realism

[@andreasosterberg8833]

Great video by the way. Here's some ideas I have in case anyone has the spare time to read. 1. Sicknesses by injury. Sicknesses could be applied to you if you were badly hurt in battle. As the sickness progresses you will look sicker, sicker to the point anyone will see you're too weak to fight off a group of allos for example. This would allow certain grouped dinosaurs to be able to take down bigger opponents depending on how weak and skilled they are are compared to the sick victim. This would make grouping as apexes more important than ever, because if you're alone and you get sick you will have to tend to it on your own and will be unprotected while resting somewhere alone. This would also force apexes whom are alone to rather steal food from others rather than hunt if they are alone as injury and sickness is greater alone since you take all the hits. But a group of Apexes would be almost forced to hunt for food as there's too little to scavenge for all of them which could become a rivalry later on. Also it would force people being more afraid of taking damage rather than just standing still and tanking it all as sickness would be dangerous. 2. "Dueling" + "Leader Role + Ranks". Most animals of the same species in the animal kingdom fight and usually they don't fight to the death but usually fight for mating rights or just to see who is the strongest in the group or for leadership. We know Triceratops did this, we believe ankylosaurus did this and I feel like this should be implemented into the game. This is how it could work. Lets say you have a leader role in a herd/pack. This leader role would give you a buff and anyone near you will be slightly buffed which would make them want to follow you. Wether if you are in a group or not you can be challenged to a duel of the same species, this will never lead to death, but can lead to severe injury/sickness and yielding is always optional as it will make you immune to damage for a couple seconds from that person after the duel is done. Of course you can always decline except if you are the leader role of a herd/pack. If the leader wins the leader will get a healing buff and keeps to be a leader. New or Old leader can choose mate (Male or female) to share bond with (Share buff with). If the leader loses they will lose the buffs and be banished from the herd/pack which is the risk of being a leader and not being a none-leader. If you are an ex-leader who was banished from the herd before, you have to choose to fight another herds/pack leadership or just join them as a nobody and fight your way up the ranks. If the leader is targetted and killed, everyone will be weakened due to no new leadership and the buff is gone. Maybe buffs given wont be needed, but I feel like no one would challenge the leader if the only reason to become the leader was for the sake of the role name. So that's why I want it to have a certain buff : ) Anyways, that's it. I would love Dueling in the game and I would love herbivore apexes to be more action than just fighting carnivores as I prefer herbivores over carnivores :) s

[@DarkThomy]

Excellent analysons and ideas ! I Hope they will be challenging, they have the chance to start it from scratch indeed

[@_thunderbolt_2920]

Increasing the food demand of a rex could lead that a rexplayer would constantly kos everything.

[@SOLIDShift_VI]

Personally I don't think we should increase the saturation/food needs of ANY tier of dino -- I think it just causes players to CONTANTLY attack anything and everything just to fill their stomachs once they are 100% -- I've noticed 100% of players stop caring about specific neuts if they are constantly hungry - they'll kill anything if it means not dying - which isn't something real animals do. I think a better solution COULD be a locked stomach mechanic that, if you have 3 FULL neuts (any3) you become "well fed" and your stomach has a cool down before it begins to drain. This obviously won't stop KOSers, but can anything really stop them? It could be that until all 3 of your neuts (OR at least one) to drain to

[@qwimove6933]

thats good idea.

[@seanpellerin5703]

As someone who experienced legacy in a time where if you wanted an apex all you had to do was log on when server pop was low and eat ai in a corner of the map until you reach sub adult and then kill one or two slow mid tiers and boom full grown trex, I absolutely agree. I was able to grow rexes to full within like 20 hours of playing the game. It wasn't much or a challenge and once I was full grown nothing beside another rex or another apex was even remotely a threat. I absolutely love the idea of making sure apexes need their diets to survive, this will keep them from being able to grow during the quiet hours when there are so few players they can hide away easily.

[@kuitaranheatmorus9932]

I think just watching these videos are just great and well in depth go into these topic but my opinion on this is thay like anything its whether or not the game is willingly enough to balance them out thorough the game further history in the future to keep the game alive But that's just me, and I just love these type of videos so am biased, anywyas hope yall have a great day

[@thesaltyapplewannabe5493]

I know progression wasnt a hit to alot of players but i think it could work for apexes. Lets say to grow a rex you would first have to grow a albertosaurus to adult and then you get a token allowing you to grow a rex, the token doesnt get used up and you keep it for that server or the entire game dunno whats better. This makes it a litte bit harder to grow the rex because you have to play the game, learn the basics. For spino the token dinon would be sucho, allo would be gigas token dino. Thoughts?

[@lordchristopher148]

Acro but that's a sub apex ... maybe something like allo I think it's the best option

[@AnAntarcticScotsman]

While I'm not particularly a fan of prog it would be nice to see again as a game mode. Not a fan of being forced to grow multiple dinos to play as the one you want, add growth to that and you'd somehow get worse than PoT officials.

[@youtubealt243]

That way you’d end up with countless allos/suchos just playing it to be apexes and no other goals. As a sucho main this would get annoying FAST

[@__Phrog_]

imagine if you pounced the rex as a utah and youd have to get off in time or the rex would grab you and just oneshot you

[@popcorntm8929]

honestly i just found your channel a few hours before you uploaded this and it is such a nice breath of fresh air have someone call out the dev team for some things that make the isle worse and they keep doing and hiding behind some excuses and the community defending them this video and the carnivore bias and the "the isle is not a fighting game" argument are easily some of the best isle videos i have seen

[@mr.gilgamesh1632]

I enjoy this idea a lot. Apexes should stand out completely from the other dinosaurs not only in time played but the difficulty of maintaining it through that time. I do think the juvies should have a starting advantage tho to find that certain nutrition they need and also add middle ground to apexes for players who aren’t as skilled. Nothing too high but something that would be cool to have.

[@Blownapart23]

“The discipline of getting the power changes you so that you won’t abuse it”-Ian Malcolm (Jurassic Park Novel)

[@donzaibanzai7746]

Great video! I agree, I think diets will be the answer to a lot of issues when it comes to 'balance' in the game. Ideally I believe the balance should come from stuff that makes more sense naturally. Like your point with ambush in legacy giving apexes the edge at close distance. This is a tool apexes had to secure a hunt and without it, they might not be able to hunt anything effectively. The counter play comes before you get in range of an ambush, not after. You balance it by making the skill the awareness of the player. Getting into ambush range of an apex should mean almost certain death, if an apex takes the time and strategy to ease its way that close, it has earned the kill and on the other hand if you are the player being ambushed and YOU allowed this to go unnoticed then that is the skill check on your side. I do like the idea of the bigger guys getting more harsh penalties with diets. Id also like to see some mechanic that forced apexes to fight or move from each other. Like more than two rexes in an area would cause it stress that would effect its stats over time so you have to either engage and fight the other apex or leave the area. This type of mechanic could be applied to other tier levels as well to help stop the overpacking / mix packing in general. This stress 'meter' would have a slow start but after a certain amount of time have a big ramp on stats effected and the timer would have an internal cooldown so if you left that area and went to another area with the same overpacked environment it would pick right back up. This would also combat players trying to game the system by leaving for a short time and coming back to the group. Again, great video as always, love these discussions!

[@Potatoasaurs]

One think I love about pot is even though the apex’s are really strong mid tiers and even small Dino like cera, alio , metri, and conc can take a fully grow Rex down.

[@sweetypredator1067]

well in POT there also the fact almost every creature are damn tanky even small one can survive to bite from big predator couple with healing and hight place out of reach plus laggy battle its really help .

[@bazamere]

Id even go so far as to make a perfect diet mandatory for any sort of growth at a certain stage (so the last 25% of growth for example). Also, congrats on hitting 8k subs XZaguer 😊

[@kratosdertoten4035]

I personally feel that having a Rex's only land carnivore competition be Carno and Cera is a mistake. Neither hit hard enough or have the hp to actually win in a fight. Now, Ceratos could Pukelock (Which has shown to be incredibly effective against stegos) but the Carno charge is a death sentence to try and Carno has horrible bleed so it has 0 tools to deal with a rex in any situation. The only real option would be to run away now that you can't tail ride (Which is good, but that was one of the main weaknesses of Apexes that kept them killable)

[@nikodanilczuk7949]

Id disagree with increasing the need for more food as that would just make the carnivores run about killing animals just like with hypos

[@erekshigarn4022]

so on official servers just grow a stego and you basically win the game.... + mixpacking with deinos..... i was excited to see Rex on official so i would be able to finally give adult stegos what they deserve.... but i guess devs said a big nope.

[@eduardobarros6562]

Rex is being worked on since 2020... I'm surprised it hasn't released yet. I wonder what it would be like to go back to this game.

[@Crakinator]

I like it. I think having drastic growth speed changes depending on diet quality is the way to go, so an apex player might go through spurts of rapid growth separated by times of very slow growth, or they might grow in 4 hours if they can maintain a perfect diet, or they might grow in 10 hours if they have a really hard time, or they could neglect their diet and hardly grow at all. Some nutrients could be particularly difficult for adults to obtain, but crucial for development of young individuals, so young apexes need to be proactive in completing their diet, even those with parents who would otherwise carry them into adulthood. Also, apexes gotta eat a lot, so living in an apex pack brings with it the risk of starvation.

[@Mich_as]

I think that you are totally right about the high demands of an apex tier. I agree with you because points you ve said in the vide would also stop the experience of growing the apex dino from being a bush simulator where you need to simply sit in one place for 6 hrs like it was in legacy. Also i don t see why devs want to make the apexes even more overpowered, imo it will break whole ecosystem if every dino fanboy will be able to simply grow apex without any effort. Im seriously tired of seeing rex herds running around killing everything on their path like in legacy. Personally i think you did an amazing job on this video and devs should thrully listen to your advice instead of blocking you on official discord serv.

[@Straya65]

just have to make the apex have fast burst speed but really high Stam lose it can catch something that gets too close but other then that everything can run away having more manageable stamina. means the rex would have to ambush its prey or scavange

[@walkerweir7194]

So I have another idea for balancing instead of limiting players. What I propose are carnivores that bridge the mid teir and apex predators with i higher pack limit. A few ideas for said bridge would be sourofaganax, torvosaurus, tarbosaurus, and siats. And give theses bridge Dino’s a larger pack limit. As well as the same thing for herbivores this way it’s more balanced in stuff can still contest with the larger apex’s but still be easier to sustain and grow.

[@EggsDeinony]

My main hope is that if they do add rex and trike they add a bunch of other large tier dinos prior not only to feed the rex in particular so that trike players aren't CONSTANTLY being harrassed by rex players, but also so that they don't have the stego problem currently in the game. Stego even in legacy was a very high tier dino ( though in legacy it was also stupidly squishy so could die to most competant players ) but having it being one of the first dinos added in envrima, a game that currently consists of almost entirely small tiers ( carno in legacy was my fav dino to play but it was definitely only a mid tier at best, cerato just barely qualifying as mid tier ) makes it stupidly unbalanced. Deino are strong as hell but if the deino leaves its environment to hunt the stego it will absolutely die. The main threat to a stego is a deino pair while swimming, or his own incompetance. I really hope they add bigger herbivores like multiple different ceratopsians and parasaurs and of course carnivores to hunt them like allo ect before they add freaking rex ( and trike because that would just be Stego Problem, but again )

[@ct1o1]

I completely agree with this idea, but I would also add, No Ai for apexes pay a certain growth, constantly challenging the carnis to engage in combat for survival, and for herbis make their diets extra diverse, needing them to constantly travel for food. Another thing I'd consider is no growth speed bonus, if you're playing an apex, you don't get the crutch of growth boost, but you'd still need good diet to not get the debuffs you mentioned

[@EnderTIcerato]

I think the most important point is that only skilled players that know the map and how the dinos work should be able to get to full adult apexes, cause in legacy even the worst player can

[@magnarcreed3801]

And punish those that work actual jobs and do not have tons of leisure time?

[@EnderTIcerato]

@@magnarcreed3801 I'm sorry but is the only way so the game is not full of rexes

[@magnarcreed3801]

@@EnderTIcerato Except it’s not. Normal higher food drain with niche partitioning for the growth stages, and the fact everything tries to kill them as juices will do the job. Otherwise play a realism server. Most play herbs there.

[@EnderTIcerato]

@@magnarcreed3801 that wouldn't be enough, in gateway, that is the map were rex will be released, theres the migration area, where all herbi nutrients will be, so an apex just has to go there and will have infinite food

[@magnarcreed3801]

@@EnderTIcerato Only if they can catch them. If players actually use their eyes and ears and aren’t in la la land, they’ll see the Rex and get away.

[@crabhater9373]

Good video bro! I think those suggestions were reasonable, but it's always going to be tough balancing apexes. I have also proposed a method to reduce apexes. An optional and improved progression game mode could also have a similar effect if done right. I have a video on my channel if you're curious about my thoughts on it :)

[@gendygoblin8391]

I remember Dondi saying he wants to stomp around the island as a Spino just wrecking shit

[@TheRealByte]

if only the devs put in this much thought.

[@NightBane345]

I wouldn't mind diet being a more demanding things for apexes in Evrima, would make it more interesting. But also, instead of just boosting all of their stats, maybe boost some, while nerfing other stats. Hypo carnos can be maybe be faster, but less strong, or reverse it, so slower, but faster. Same with the other dinos that can be apexes, stronger, but slower, faster or slower, whichever fits their unique theme.

[@TheKOzality]

Why not just make them smart AI NPCs where the players need to work together to defeat, i.e. a common enemy. Limit the number per server. Seems to me like a way to make emergent content and also balance things. It would be so cool to see a herd of herbivores trying to take down a Rex, or a group of Carnos taking charging runs trying to take it out strategically. Can you imagine how cool it would be when you hear a broadcast call form an Apex inviting combat to the whole server while also simultaneously running a chill down your spine in fear?!

[@manueldejesusrojassandi3919]

Another point is that younger stages of apex animals play the niche of smaller creatures. Subadult rex competes for the same niche as Albertosaurus. This also happens in real life with animals like Varanus.

[@memele4991]

Imagine they made the apex nest's eggs a foodsource on the map because of their size, like imagine T'rex eggs being a foodsource for a pack of troodons or pteras that would be so difficult lmao

[@silentwishs]

Make territories, If there are so many apex of a certain type in a area they get a huge debuff. Would make them not want to do big groups and also kill off other apexs for control.

[@temushin]

I think this idea is a start, but there needs to be more to it; maybe make apexes provide unique nutrients that give buffs carnivores can't get otherwise. That will encourage people to gang up on them, and for them to fight each other. Make some of the dietary requirements for the herbivores unique and hard to get to - requiring further migrations than smaller dinosaurs, and maybe even be rare enough that they have to compete with each other.

[@doktorduggieducker9615]

in short: the best players should get even better, because they're the only one able to get apexes. What should go wrong?

[@kenshinhimura9387]

Apex dinos will never become a problem because me and my friends kill them the moment they reach sub adult. They will never be allowed to reach full adult on any server we are playing on. We will be the only fully grown apex on that server guaranteed.

[@steph4050]

It should be super long to grow an Apex. Something like 100 hours plus ... so only someone who is super skilled and patient could grow one. Also having access to Apex should require the player to have grown all beasts of the game to the adult stage. Briefly, having access to APEX should not be available to everyone. If not, let's see the server being just a bunch of TRex fighting each other.

[@gojira1091]

Large dinos dont need to be balanced against mid tiers and low tiers. They only need to be balanced against other apexs in combat. Any dino that was a mid tier or lower would turn tail and run against any apex. They shouldn't stand a chance vs other apexs unless the mid tier or low tier has a special or unique ability that could give it a slight chance to bring a apex down or catching a apex when it's young, but regardless it shouldn't be balanced so that mid tiers or small tiers can fight a apex. The only balancing that's needed is the apex vs apex fights that show true skill expression and mastery on the apex your playing. Also one big issues is just having a bigger variety of apexs instead of just 2. If there's only 2 apexs everyone will just be the same thing trike or rex but with more apexs the dynamics will be way more fun when there's spinos gigas and many more big boys that will be filling the world and fighting each other. Brings more to the game and is better all around. If you go mid tier or lower just always know you are making the choice that you won't be able to fight a apex, just like you know as a denio that you can't beat a stego or run on land fast, accept the gives and takes on the dino and tier you choose to play 😊

[@FadedNimbus]

Me personally I feel like all the dinosaurs should be on the same branch and available on both official and unofficial servers. Splitting dinosaurs up is just stupid and an unnecessary drag on resources

[@quasarix]

I would add point system, so you first have to play smaller dinos, grow them, thrive on them, extra points from nesting, and then use those points to spawn bigger and bigger dinos, trex will be fine because he can sprint fast, but for short time. Also add some limiter to servers so ppl cant spawn too many of the same species, unless small dinos.

[@atriox7221]

Should have a specific population capacity for spawned and another for natural born for each species, giving a reward for being hatched from preexisted players and adding a vital layer to the balancing of species, apexes have a max population capacity of 5 to 10 at a time between natural and spawned with the carnivores never exceeding 8. That great reduction in population capacity combined with your ideas for killing off most players through skill required diets and intelligence at the lower growth stages would reduce apexes to mythical level appearance frequency compared to even the next best of their species grouping which matches their full grown power perfectly.

[@FelidaeEnjoyer]

10:50 Only change I would make is with the slightly change their stats part, speed should be decreased more than strength, and if they ever add a hypothermia (Hypo=cold) and hyperthermia system (Hyper=hot) the apexes should be more vulnerable to hyper, because of how increasing size heats up the body through getting closer to critical mass. Expanding on that, too little food and diet would make hypothermia worse, since there's no fat stores and the body is not dense with vitamins and minerals, etc. Also, 1 000 000% agree diet should have worse effects than it already does.

[@R3ar3ntry]

I usually agree with you, but 8 don't think apexes are too busted, not when 6-10 utahs can kill one, I personally think there is a better solution to stop everyone and their mom from playing it, make their growth insane, let them be broken, but I say if a player is wondering why allo can't body a rex, well weight+bite force + size. No real-life carnivore hunts other carnivorous of greater size, if there is its probably not comment, because for most animals they don't risk their life the wat players do. I actually think apexes are a bit under powered, I grow dilos and utahs in under 2 hrs, and I get to kill an 8+ hour growth animal? If I die I say "oh well" But good video either way, and no I'm not a apex main, if anything I enjoy troodon the most Edit: I actually wrote this comment like half way through the video, but i agree with your points at the end, i don't think they're over powered, just make them harder to get to "apex" status and make their diet very based on their gameplay, good diet etc will make you a better player. Sorry if my first part of my comment sounded toxic, i truly love your videos and look foward to them everyday

[@stega2970]

I think this is a good idea in concept, but I think making it where if they lack one specific diet then they get those debuffs is a bit much maybe more like if they have less than 2 nutrients then they get them as balancing the diets you get can be a big pain especially when food drain and diet drain are so different

[@titanosaurdy9493]

I agree with this idea, but I also think that Apexes should also have weaknesses depending on the specie to show players that despite their achievements, they shouldn't let their guard down just because they feel powerful

[@dxveclipsnips7435]

"earn it and not just wait for it" Lets start a movement so the Devs understand that when they introduce these monsters

[@devonishigh]

Everything you said in the end of this video would make the trex literally impossible to grow without getting lucky with a spawn aka youll have to keep switching servers until you find that intial meal because every debuff and additional challenge will make it impossible to grow.

[@spino4247]

I fell like it’s a bit too early to add apexes but what do I know

[@UserNamedTenonto]

I really hope mid tier groups have a chance against solo apexes I have no problem with 4 or so competent Allos taking down a rex

[@yollnahkriin6604]

I'd say diets and cannibalism can be an option. Just make apexes in mid growth stages provide all 3 nutrients to all cernivores, and provide extra hunger to another apexes. Chief's kiss, to grow an apex you must hide from all carnivores and other apexes, most deadly creatures in the game. If you really want to make people suffer, you can make that apexes only grow with all 3 diets, which'll both make them risk for food and get killed and also hunt other apexes for fast nutrients.

[@echodelta6196]

As well as what you said I'd would make them cannibals and also had a huge debuff in strength and health when in the vicinity of another apex of the same type (just the meat eaters) making them viable for solo play only.

[@venomdragon7853]

I think that this concept is good overall, especially with diets having more of a negative impact, but I think taking away core features, for an example, spino diving underwater, make make it impossible to obtain said diet unless you get extremely lucky. Apexes would need to be slowly changed and adjusted during testing to truly find out what sticks and what doesn't.

[@SushiWithAGun]

that "giga" was actually an ark model for acrocanthosaurus 2:09

[@Mydielle]

I want the community to submit this idea to the devs except for the food drain. As apexes are big, you should be able to be satiate enough time to nest, and all (which is another feature of the game that will demand time and skills). Large predators come to eat preys of their stomac size so rewarding that would prevent killing on sight everything that moves to keep your hunger at a stable level. People that would KoS will KoS anyway so... But i don't want a nervous killing machine eaten by time. We'll have elders for that ! I mean, it should be hard to grow them and it should be strategic and smart to know how to ambush, how to defend and how to hunt with them but it also should be rewarding so the more soft part of the game as nesting would not be forgotten neither. Balancing apexes by getting them more vulnerable to weather as rain, heatwaves, sandstorms and natural diseases would be super interesting too and could help to add another way of being part of the foodchain as smalltiers and toptiers being symbiotics. Because, yes, killing everything is not the only rule in the jungle but one of a billions. I'd like to see some small tier and top tier dinosaurs having symbiosis relations, as they don't have use from each others otherwise and could benefits both of that, added to the fact that it will add another part of the survival axis which is cooperation. For example, having a pteranodon or a beipi cleaning teeth of a spinosaurus to prevent it to have tooth problems and cleaning it from a sandstorm. Hypsilophodon helping a trike to remove dirt and moss from it's back. It could gives nutrients to small tiers and benefit to help toptiers being rid of weather consequences like some movement, vision, earing debuffs, maybe, added to the fact they will be useful to play and more fun too. Apexes would be more careful about the weather, maybe getting buffs or debuffs depending of their specificity (a spinosaurus may lower his water drain while raining but will gain moss so they need to find some specific rocks to clean them or small tiers to prevent a disease debuff for example). I think the more you upgrade the tier, the more you'll have environment consequences could be so much better and rewarding instead of basing all the game on the hunger and buffs. What do you think about it ? Except that, i 200% agree and i hope they'll take accountability of that way of thinking. Thanks for your video and for reading my comment if you did !

[@zockerkid3420]

i think this is the pefect way of balancing apexes

[@OstenMeMackan]

What did he say in the video? That trex and trike will be in the game in aug/sep?

[@realdaggerman105]

This could absolutely be abused by vc gamers, but what if apexes filled two diet slots for non-apex animals? In theory, you have say a sub-adult T.rex getting hunted by a pack of utahs. Normally, maybe it wouldn’t be worth the risk for just 1 diet. But now, in addition to all organs, by base that rex could fill your entire pack with 2 different diets. Low population server? Find and hunt the small apexes. Can’t find the specific diet you need? An apex would probably have it, and would almost certainly be common in their juvi stages. Just an idea.

[@CorwinTheOneAndOnly]

Well we were *supposed* to get things like Hypos to cull apexes if apexes ever got too out of control. Who knows if that will still be a thing tho...

[@Checklist_STT]

More smaller AI like rabbits and chickens, less larger AI like boars. For an apex to survive, it must kill and eat players, not hide AFK in the forest munching on AI. That goes for all adult carnivores, not just AI.

[@Nofillter]

imagine having elder deino that could grab almost everything

[@carterhofer85]

What big tiers are we considering Apex. I assume Rex, Trike, Giga, Spino, what about Shant, Deinocheirus?

[@alexius9556]

Could you make a video about how path did the exact opposite thing: destroying Apex’s and buff small and mid tiers so much that the differences are way to small?

[@johnparks4345]

If they’re going to add negative effects from a “bad” diet, they need to fix the diet system first So annoying when I can’t get keep/get the growth bonus that I worked for, because the devs decided that eating = doesn’t fill up the half way full = meter, instead, it fills up the empty diet hex so that I can’t get a perfect diet

[@-Sicko.]

I think as long as The Isle doesn't plan on balancing the stats etc, they should make a Apex limit for servers, so that you can have only (as example) 15 Rexes at a time on one server and not more. That would also prevent 100 Rexes running around lol. Ofc let custom servers be able to set their own limit.

[@sc2sc286]

I dont like this fix, with 60 dinos eventually being in the roster even if you have a large list of possible diets finding the correct nutrient definetly has a randomness aspect to it and its not purely player skill

[@SaberT137]

Id say make it so that Apexs fill all of your diets at the same time to put a target on their backs.

[@Moths000]

I can’t wait to watch troodons try to take down some apexs

[@MBtooth]

I think this idea is great! However, it’s not my personal style. I know I might sound kinda lame but when Apexes do come to community servers, I will be joining the “free grow” servers to skip the growth difficulty and get straight to being the boss. I’m a big fan of sandbox games and for me I’d prefer realism sandbox over anything, as it wouldn’t be a bloodbath server and rather how it feels to be a dinosaur. Though I’d definitely try out normal growth, I just know I get upset when I lose something that took me many hours to grow.

[@intotheisland]

This right here! I agree with ya! I'm a big fan of sandbox myself. Survival mode can be fun to some extent and it is ofc rewarding to play a dino that takes ye 3-4 hours to grow. But man, when i die lmao I'd just something that is easy to grow or switch to a server where you could get a free grow. Truly hope a sandbox mode will come to the game, cuz I need another way to enjoy the adult life of every dino without using hours to grow just to die.

[@EnderTIcerato]

In those server people doesn't mind dying tho

[@intotheisland]

@@EnderTIcerato That may be true, but it doesn't hurt to have an option for sandbox playing. ^^ With a few rules, KOS can be limited.

[@BobBob-eb4io]

I think they should also limit the amount of each apex that can be on a server at once like 6 trexes ,5 of whatever suropod in the isle ect

[@williamturner7131]

Uncertain if anyone will see this, but... If an Apex offers 2 out of 3 or even all 3 diets to medium and small dinosaurs, and the debuffs from an Apex having an imperfect or lackluster diet puts them on a significantly lower level and force them to, basically, forever chase their hunger, then it would give players a significant incentive to not only play aggressively and skillfully as an apex, but for other players in faster growing, smaller dinosaurs to perhaps deny them their growth, for very legitimate gameplay purposes. Which will discourage the majority of players who want to be apex, and only allowing the very best and capable to become Apexes, who will naturally be absolute menaces. Perhaps if Apex predators were also able to scent specific dinosaurs more easily to make it easier for them to hunt, it would enable this much better.