The Israel-Hamas War and the Future of the U.S.-Israel Relationship: Bret Stephens & Margaret Hoover

Your support helps us continue creating online content for our community. Donate now: www.92NY.org/Donate
The Hamas attack on October 7th was widely viewed within Israel as a paradigm-shifting moment.
One month later, how does Israel’s military brass and political leadership view its strategic objectives? What will the long-term impact of this war be on Israel’s future - and on its relationship with the United States? Join us for a moderated discussion with Bret Stephens, opinion columnist for the New York Times and Editor-in-Chief of SAPIR: Ideas for a Thriving Jewish Future, who will share reflections from his recent trip to Israel.
Recorded November 16, 2023 at The 92nd Street Y, New York.
Facebook: / 92ndstreety
Instagram: / 92ndstreety
Twitter: / 92ndstreety
Archives: www.92ny.org/archives

[@conniedean3787]

Benjamin Netanyahu thinks all 2 million Palestinians are HAMAS, he is a lost soul 😢

[@annoyboyPictures]

80% of them Voted for Hamas back in 2006. You are delusional if you think that they are not the same as Hamas. The goal of the Palestinians is to wipe out the Jews. This is not even disputed by any of them, whether it be Hamas, Hezbollah, Fatah, the PA or whatever other Islamic group that exists.

[@abc_13579]

30:20 Saudi Arabia will never agree to be Israel's policeman in Gaza. They have way too much to lose.

[@kylemarshall4559]

Yo bro, you can’t annex territory from war. The settlement are illegal, everywhere on the other side of the green line. You don’t get to decide my dude.

[@MrAbuYaz]

You need a primer on international law.

[@kylemarshall4559]

@@MrAbuYaz please enlighten me

[@Dngrov257]

There only about 20,000 settlors removed from Gaza, whereas there are 400,000 settlors in the West Bank, excluding East Jerusalem which Israel annexed. About 220,000 settlors there. Therefore, when Stephens said settlements are not an impediment to a Palestinian state, I think he is naive.

[@darv011]

Yes, very little of what he says has integrity. Pity the interviewer is a flucey!

[@Klopp2543]

In Gaza there were less than 7500 settlers. Let's say the settlers in the west bank and east Jerusalem are 10M or more. Does it justify the crime? Of course not. It's like a thief who's stolen your house and wants you to live in the yard because he lives there? 22% of the land is regarded by international law, UN security resolutions, every country including Israel and USA all regard it occupied.

[@Christmas12]

They pulled the settlements out of Gaza because it was too densely populated and they realized they couldn't secure the area properly so they pulled their settlement resources out and moved the focus to the West Bank

[@chickensandwich8808]

"Hamas did not expect this kind of focus." Yes... yes, they did, lady. You can read US military manuals from the 70s that even talk about this kind of insurgence brutality, basically being a recruitment tool. It is used by a smaller force to create an overreaction by the insitutional powers of the state. This is because in an overreaction, there will be collateral. That will make radicals out of former sympathizers and sympathizers out of the less involved. This wasn't new when America invaded Iraq and Afghanistan, yet the powers that be made the "mistake" even though they absolutely understood this fundamental result. Isreali officials are making the same error now, and they absolutely know it, too. Isreali government doesn't care about eliminating Hamas. In fact, Hamas is a wedge issue that allows for propaganda that keeps certain officials in power. So it would be against their self interests to follow through. Hamas expected this, and Isreal was perfectly fine delivering. The pattern of conflict between Hamas and Isreal is like clockwork, and he even cites this. What we are seeing now is a continuation of that cycle, and it sucks.

[@abc_13579]

Point taken. Still, I don't think Hamas expected Israel to be as successful as they've been at locating and destroying Hamas tunnels. I'm sure they thought they'd be safe there. And like Bret said, Hamas expected the West Bank and Hizbullah to join them in their uprising, and this hasn't happened. (At least not yet.) So yes, things have not turned out entirely as Hamas expected-not even close, I'm happy to say.

[@TimothyDeSomerville]

I see that you feel that you are a mind reader.

[@jacobjorgenson9285]

Making the same error now ? They have for 75 YEARS

[@chickensandwich8808]

@TimothyDeSomerville not a mind reader but I do actually read various experts as well as military doctrine of the US and NATO generally.

[@chickensandwich8808]

@abc_13579 I'm late to this, but recently, reporting has suggested that Hizbullah did not jo8n due to diplomatic efforts by Western diplomats to dissuade Bibi from pre-emptively striking Hizbullah. Keep in mind. Palestine is only useful to the other Arab nations as a moral wedge if they are actively being persecuted. Hizbullah, however, has actual allies that would intervene should Isreal have completed that attack. This was still in October. This isn't to say Isreal doesn't have a right to defend itself, but there is a vast difference between conducting precision operations to acquire or eliminate targets vs. the indiscriminate bombing they have been doing. Wheb I speak of Hamas, I speak specifically of its upper eschealon who are absolutely NOT in Gaza. They are elsewhere, as most top officials tend to be when there is a designated battlespace. Those specific people anticipated this kind of reaction, and the more blood Isreal spills in the name of "defense" when they are clearly accomplishing nothing other than galvanizing another cycle of extremists. They had a chance to come out of this in the best way and they effectively bent over backwards to suck their own dicks. The Isreali people deserve better than Bibi, and the Palestinians deserve better than Hamas. But one of those two has actual institutional power and thus the ability to progressively end this struggle. Not without bumps and setbacks but ultimately a path to peace. That has been effectively trashed, and that is Isreals fault for overreacting when there is recent precedent for how awful of an idea it was.

[@icenarsin5283]

How dare Hamas build tunnels? Gaza is a large, spacious, and sparsely populated area. Palestinians have total freedom and control over the airspace, their coast, and all their borders. They are free to travel, import and export anything they want. They are a liberated and prosperous people. Why would you build tunnels in such a situation?

[@iamthenews5624]

15:00 Hamas is being occupied! How can you rid the world of Hamas? 🤦‍♀️

[@Torric25]

Stephens is mis describes proporitonality: the civilian deaths may very well be excessive: The principle of proportionality prohibits attacks against military objectives which are “expected to cause incidental loss of civilian life, injury to civilians, damage to civilian objects, or a combination thereof, which would be excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated”. In other words, the principle of proportionality seeks to limit damage caused by military operations by requiring that the effects of the means and methods of warfare used must not be disproportionate to the military advantage sought.

[@davesax11]

You can see in the comments how far apart the perspectives are. Stephens is more correct than most.

[@haythamal-dokanji9547]

That was a treat! Thoughtful questions and answers. I do agree that there's a poisonous strain in the Palestinian body politic that is complemented by the messianic settler movement on the Israeli side. I disagree with Bret on the subject of civilian casualties in Gaza. The "burn rate" was 500 children and 300 women killed or injured daily. These numbers are not "garbage". The UN worked with the health authorities in Gaza during previous bouts of this conflict and found out the numbers to be accurate. Add to that wide starvation and destruction of infrastructure. This is doing huge damage to Israel's reputation and support. What Bret mentioned about humanitarian buffers where Israel provides refuge, food and medical assistance to the wretched displaced is what I expected and hoped Israel would do but it did not. It would've been in Israel's interest and morally the right course of action.

[@izzykhach]

Since the messianic settlers aren't committing the unconscionable atrocities of the Oct 7th folk, I'm not sure the two groups complement each other. It's a good thing the IDF isn't trying to achieve a proportional response ;)

[@jacobjorgenson9285]

@@izzykhachfirstly . Being an illegal occupier Israel does not in fact have a right to defend itself according to international law. Just in 2023 prior to Oct Israel killed 44 children in the West Bank, no Hamas there . This has gone on for 75 years

[@izzykhach]

@@jacobjorgenson9285 you haven't shed a single tear for the million Muslims who were wiped out by other Muslims in Syria, Yemen and Iraq. Jews weren't involved so you don't find it interesting. I personally believe you're a barbarian.

[@MrAbuYaz]

​@jacobjorgenson9285 you're ignorance should embarrass you. No Hamas in the West Bank? Israel is not illegally occupying Judea and Samaria, it liberated it.

[@MrAbuYaz]

The UN works for Hamas. Nothing it says can be taken as truth.

[@swaranbawa2034]

such an amazing person

[@direwolf6234]

since this talk so much has happened .. hostage release cease fire .. Muslim disruptions of black friday shopping across the country and the thanksgiving parade & christmas tree lighting .. and the salient points discussed here will hopefully reach a larger audience ...

[@johnrolle6645]

It is probably too soon but the way in which the iron dome was lauded as an impenetrable defense from rebel rockets is akin to the story of Achilles. I think the 800 pound gorilla driving the retaliation in part is the embarrassment around being caught off guard and undermined in that sense 10/07 is like 9/11. Isreali intelligence is also lauded as one of the best if not the best in the world. Shame in part is what is driving this. It seems the Palestinians will pay for not only their actions of late but for those crimes committed in the 20th century that went unanswered. This mess breaks my heart.

[@tarafreedom2584]

What an enlightening discussion! 👏👏👏👌👌👌

[@johannesramokgadi6243]

Why are Palestinians expected to accept to live under the brutal occupation ?

[@LordGreystoke]

Because they gave no redeeming qualities.

[@johannesramokgadi6243]

What about the daily suffering and humiliation of Palestinians ?

[@diegotomasarene-morley7249]

I actually think there are way more moderate people at Brown etc… but they feel scared and marginalized to express their true opinion. I think we must encourage and organize them to speak up and avoid vilifying them.

[@direwolf6234]

seems odd that they'd have to use large hand held mics at such a nice facility ...

[@tedstrauss999]

It's a good way to avoid feedback (screeching). Wireless clip-on mics can be unreliable. Audio sounded excellent to me.

[@bosheihab6463]

the hasbara machine is relentless

[@SunShine-ij9yl]

Why is it ok for Palestinians to live in an open air prison under Apartheid?

[@LordGreystoke]

Because it wasn’t an open air prison to begin with. You’ve been brainwashed by Arab propaganda.

[@bethcares17anonymous38]

So sad!!!

[@jerrysegal2903]

interesting

[@ELL289]

This was such an informative interview. Netanyahu has to go!

[@jacobjorgenson9285]

Palestine needs to be free

[@libistur]

Israelis will decide if Netanyahu stays or go.. not you, unless you are an Israeli, then, you can vote him out...no one else can decide his political career

[@janebishop5885]

Mr. Stephens, how do people, if living so tyrannized, have so many children?

[@kevinskiles2033]

And what does that have to do with the slaughter of children?

[@kylemarshall4559]

Oppressed poor people everywhere have higher birthrates. You wildin.

[@Klopp2543]

Poor people, nations etc all tend to have more kids.

[@iamthenews5624]

14:21 This is absurd… this is a genocide!!

[@MuhammadYousaf-yf2pg]

Wonderful discussion! Cancer? who is the cancer? the occupier or the occupied.

[@hostashevsky]

Stephens, like other well meaning people, is blinded by his dreams detached from reality.

[@diegotomasarene-morley7249]

NEVER VERMIN. But I’m not sure everyone else in the audience agreed… far fewer people clapped…

[@roberteigen4499]

bravo. so much sense and so well spoken

[@rrrwaves]

I can never get enough of Bret Stephens. Thank you!

[@clips001ify]

Love his writing. Appreciate this recording,

[@Torric25]

@@clips001ifythis is bs

[@YAFASHRIKI]

23:50 😮😮😮😮😮😮😮state to Arab? 23 countries is not enough? Your argument have no ground whatsoever. Gaza was the state you advocated I’m sure you support the pullout of Gaza, how that works out? Nonsense no additional state between the river to the sea 🌊. Arab Emirates is a good idea. (If that helps).

[@Christmas12]

The problem is Zionism (it always was it just wasn't so obvious to people until the internet and social media came to life) - I don't know if Bret is trying to make excuses or if he just genuinely doesn't understand how bad and uncontrollable this situation has become - you can't have a 'Costa rica' Palestinian state next door to a Zionist state no matter how much you wish could happen, because we have a supremacist character in Zionism and a growing religious zionism (increasing demographic share) infused in all this which is serious about this idea that God promised them all of this land - Bret is stuck on the fantastical idea of 'the Jewish nation' (an old idea of one jewish people) but that is not true in this world; Israel is A Jewish nation, not THE Jewish nation, those identities diverged sometime ago (probably sometime during the war of independence, the moment the Palestinian identity was also born though it wouldn't be understood until some decades later). There is no more single Jewish people and nation, national identities are shaped by time and experiences and the Israeli identity is diverged from the Jewish diaspora, the Palestinians and the Israelis share a common national identity and destiny for better and for worse, and so far it is not a happy one but it is there's and it is not anyone else's no matter how much they wish to imagine it is - it's time for Jews to take hard reflection on Zionism, what it has become, and where it fits in the story of Israel (hopefully relegated to Israel's past) and let Israel and Palestine be free to forge ahead their own national identity

[@bethcares17anonymous38]

Perfect interview😢

[@icenarsin5283]

Understandably, Israel had to declare war on Gaza after recent events. The previous 15 years of total siege with the Iron Wall, air and naval blockades, and autonomous machine guns, were a gesture of peace by Israel. Hamas destroyed this beautiful and equitable arrangement by barbarically bulldozing and breaching the wall.

[@simonmarcus4025]

Brett must know that he dodged a key issue in relation to the Israeli campaign. It's not as if Israel had only one alternative to the actions it took: no action at all. It had complete control of its retaliation and innumerable tactical options. The question is whether its precise plan of attack went much farther than necessary. IDF generals seem to have been given carte blanche: "Use every weapon you've got, at maximum intensity, against any target you choose. Don't even think of holding back! You believe there might be one or two Hamas operatives in a camp of hundreds of refugees? Let 'em have it! We're not going to be deterred by a crowd of human shields. It's a war!" And that is how we've reached a Palestinian toll of FIFTEEN THOUSAND lives. The fact that Hamas recognized no limits on 10/7 didn't give Israel the right to abandon all restraint in its response. Moral values were not canceled.

[@MrAbuYaz]

Absurd

[@magamemes3453]

As an American taxpayer I'm tired of over 3 billion dollars of American taxpayer money going to Israel every damn year for decades. I'm sick of seeing my fellow Americans living on the streets while our money takes care of a foreign Country. The American people are not Israel's piggy bank. They can also fund their own damn wars. I don't want my tax money turning into blood money.

[@MrAbuYaz]

Brett completely misreeads 1973, because he makes,the mistake of not bothering to learn Arab culture. Peace with Egypt didnt come because Israel won that war. It came because Egypt crossed the canal successfully.

[@martinmcgrath1780]

I guess BS never spent a week and Gaza before 10/7. A most humiliating experience. No wonder Hamas.

[@younesjonas2040]

I'm French  I'm proud to be a catholic Henry Kissinger is one of the worst people ever

[@hostashevsky]

Even if Hamas is “ destroyed “, another group under different name will appear. The problem is not only with the radical organizations but with Palestinians and also with the West that financially supports anti-Israeli aspirations of the Muslim world.

[@Klopp2543]

Don't you think the occupation is the root cause of the conflict? If not what do you expect or want for the Palestinians? Israel controls all the land

[@iamthenews5624]

49:35 I am done with society. It is just sooo sad… that we have learned nothing from our past.. and that we will enable and justify colonizing 100%! It’s just wild …

[@conniedean3787]

I lost 2 children, when you kill a child on purpose on both sides , Israel and the Gaza strip will NEVER be the same again

[@morahjayne699]

Bret Stephens deserved an equally as intelligent interviewer. This was NOT a ‘private’ moment for starters ! He is incredibly bright and articulate, and I needed to put my hands to my ears each time she spoke. Have him be interviewed by Maddow for starters so he’s on intellectual equal ground.

[@jmulcahy7]

She did a fine job except for her going off-topic toward the end with the Trump election question. I can't imagine Rachel Maddow doing any better.

[@nuqwestr]

Maddow is a notorious liar, in the same stripe as a Rush Limbaugh, just from the otherside of the aisle.

[@nuqwestr]

@@jmulcahy7 She's just a legacy choice, has no business in a position like this.

[@mariateresacantonbetancour2868]

My greatest admiration to Mr. Stephens, his voice is always importante, but in these time is esencial.

[@SweetGypsyMamma213]

At 21 minutes I can’t even continue to watch this. It is so tone deaf.

[@TimothyDeSomerville]

The American media is full of sociopaths and sycophants.

[@janebishop5885]

I think what should be researched is the effect of BLM on developing the attraction to the Palestinian cause. That org is full of grievance and they erroneously identify with the Palestinians.

[@kylemarshall4559]

You wildin. You think that’s the issue? Haha. It’s the Israeli apartheid state, not BLM 😂😂😂

[@iamthenews5624]

15:57 BS!!

[@ELL289]

Bret, progressive hate speech comes from the far left, conservative hate speech comes from the mainstream right. There isn’t an equivalency.

[@taleiran]

it’s the exact opposite. Is there a conservative hate squad in Congress?

[@ELL289]

@@taleiran I think your confirmation bias is showing.

[@bobtaylor170]

​@@ELL289of course, that's a glib way of dealing with facts you don't like: call it "confirmation bias."

[@ELL289]

@@bobtaylor170 The comment I replied to did not point to any “facts”, it was just an oppositional opinion. Glib? Maybe. But my initial comment was not glib, it was based on observations over a long period of time.

[@taleiran]

you were entirely correct about 30 years ago

[@darv011]

Very little of what he says has integrity. Pity the interviewer is a flucey!

[@YAFASHRIKI]

30:00 so you want bibi to go 🏡home? Good, vote 🗳️. Don’t slam Israel 🇮🇱 with a nice audience laugh 😂 when Israel 🇮🇱 is at war and innocent li is in the line. (Funny 😆 is that Hamas and you have the same goal, to get rid of bibi, think 💭 about it when you go to sleep 🛌)

[@icenarsin5283]

He is right. Israel didn’t start this. Let’s remember how this situation started. Palestinians initiated it when they left the middle east and settled in northern Europe. There they seized the lands and synagogues of the Ashkenazi. They organized pogroms and went onto create a Palestinian state in the Pale of Settlement. It is all their fault. They should suffer the consequences. Palestine is a settler colonial enterprise.

[@Torric25]

nonsense

[@mehultrivedi2035]

Sadly, this is the Western view, no discussion of the ethnic cleansing in 1948, violations of numerous UN resolutions against settlements in the West Bank, Israeli government policy of dividing Palestinians between Gaza and West Bank so that a two state solution can never be implemented. I suppose one can’t expect that when there is no Palestinian voice in the room. Have a proper conversation with Rashid Khalidi and Bret Stephens.

[@iamthenews5624]

49:05 This lecture shows how hopeless we all are… if no one can see that Israel is occupying these people and they are living in an Apartheid State 🤦‍♀️

[@TimothyDeSomerville]

We can see that Israel is an evil and illegitimate creation that is built upon lies and deception. It is only those who earn their income from the media who are compelled to lie to and attempt to mislead the world.

[@royolstad8532]

When Hamas did what they did, acting our barbarism unseen in the modern era, perpetrated against recreating, innocents, why are we talking about proportionality!?

[@Barcafan987]

These people care about Israel than the US

[@icenarsin5283]

He is right. Equating the suffering of 15,000 dead Palestinians as somehow comparable to the suffering of 1200 Israelis is pure antisemitism. Naturally, Israel’s right to defend itself supersedes any Palestinians’ right to life, liberty, and justice.

[@Barcafan987]

Total BS