THE LAST WALL PROTOCOL! COULD IT BE GUILLIMAN'S SOLUTION?

[@doxun7823]

This is where the Imperium's bad habit of totally erasing certain historical records could come back to bite them. The Lord Reagent really needs to know everything. *Especially* the most sensitive parts.

[@Wustenfuchs109]

That's one of the things that does not make sense even from the in-world logic. Losing some data? Sure. But intentionally destroying it? No. Imperium might severely limit the information - like they do with many other things (like, for example the existence of Gray Knights and the Terminus Decree) but not destroy the information outright.

[@KaiserAfini]

If only they could be as accurate as the records of the Custodes. But unlike the glorious 10 000, other warriors lose, so its understandable they would want to hide the shame of failing the Emperor.

[@hockeymasktime6748]

Be quite the piece of irony if the war of the false Primarch was actually one of the lost Primarchs that was lost in the warp since the great crusade and the imperium just raged a 80 year war against and killed him and destroyed his fleet. because the Emperor purged the lost primarchs existence from official records

[@bluntblade6887]

@@Wustenfuchs109It is dumb, but keep in mind how long a span it has been and how much in fighting the IoM deals with. Isn’t uncommon for kings or nations to coverup or alter events in the real world, got to be so much worse with multiple titanic organizations spread across a galaxy bickering over issues real and imagined for ~10k years. Also keep in mind for 40k reading the wrong text can summon literal daemons. So some justification, but thousands of years of paranoia and degradation (the IoM didn’t become its horrible self over a couple centuries) does not help. They may have known some random cardinal was behind some horrible stuff, but unfortunately the local filing planet was destroyed/eaten/razed by *insert xeno/disaster/eldritch horror*.

[@headlibrarian1996]

But they do destroy information outright, indiscriminately so. I recall the opening of a Horus Heresy book where a document destruction team murdered all the librarians and burned an entire section of the library, including unrelated priceless historical records, just to make sure that even if the information was accidentally misfiled on the wrong shelf it was still gone.

[@davidmiddleton7958]

The Last Wall Protocol was activated during the War of the Beast . Technically, this was a last ditch protocol from Rogal Dorn & his sons. Dorn foresaw that a Legion prescence might be regarded as close to treason, but a necessary contingency. However, although Guilliman may have come across references, the High Lords & the Inquisition would have exspunged most information. However, the Deathwatch would keep their own records, including details of the War of the Beast. If Guilliman came across records of Vulkan being found, I think that he may not have been suprised as many think.

[@TheDeathstyk]

The breaking of the legions made sense, when civil war was your prime concern. In an age when alien bugs, space demons, and robot mummies are the prime concerns, a combined and organized legion is definitely an advantage. Also once again, we see that the imperiums biggest Achilles heel, is their own paranoia and rules.

[@attemptedunkindness3632]

I suspect sometime around The Battle of The Iron Cage Robute saw just how absolutely nutters Rogal was getting (Perturabo and him where draining planets dry for recruits), meanwhile he had other bros like Vulkan and Corax who basically already were down to chapter strength, and he was also aware that the traitors have broken up into tiny warbands. The Codex Astartes is a band aid, and probably meant to be temporary at that but Robby G. was probably like "Listen dad is sleeping off being murdered, let's put some of our toys up for when we wakes up, and let our little bros repair their toys...Besides. According to father this isn't even the first time he has been murdered."

[@viktoriyaserebryakov2755]

@@attemptedunkindness3632 We don't know why Dorn did what he did, it is never stated. It makes no sense that Dorn would break then of all times, and premature to assume he's just crazy.

[@attemptedunkindness3632]

@@viktoriyaserebryakov2755 Uhh... have you read _any_ of the HH series? Spoiler: Rogal ain't calm and well adjusted by the end of it.

[@viktoriyaserebryakov2755]

@@attemptedunkindness3632 Citation needed. The End and the Death. Read it. Dorn is not st"pid, he's not irrational, and he doesn't break. The conclusion that he just had a tantrum is illogical. No motivation for his actions were ever stated. Prove otherwise.

[@theodoremccarthy4438]

The discussion of the break-up of the legions in the codex usually focuses on the politics of the move. That humanity needed to be reassured no one man would be given the power to launch a replay of the Horus Heresy. I suspect that Guilliman cared more about a strategic rationale. Given how wounded the Imperium was, and how depleted the legions were, in the wake of the Heresy and the Scouring, breaking up the legions made a lot of sense. Baseline human forces could be repopulated much faster than the legions, so reassigning Astartes forces to act as semi-autonomous fast-reaction forces to supplement primarily baseline defenses was strategically vital to preserving what was left of the Imperium. If that was Guilliman’s rationale, more than concerns over a replay of the Heresy, he wouldn’t take any offense to the Last Wall Protocol. He’d see it as eminently sensible, and see the secrecy around it as a necessary political move. I imagine he’d be proud of Dorn for both having the contingency and being subtle in preparing it.

[@Nempo13]

Do not forget, the Fists and their successor chapters also KILL anyone that learns about the Last Wall Protocol. Two high lords have been killed for digging into Fist's business during the 10k years. Also an entire section of the assassins were destroyed completely by the Templars for digging into information they didn't belong in. Only Astartes are allowed to know.

[@viktoriyaserebryakov2755]

But it's not so sensible. If Dorn had obeyed him to the letter, there wouldn't be an imperium left. So in a sense, the only reason the codex wasn't the death of the imperium is thanks to the guy Guilliman nearly waged civil war with over opposing it. The premise of it is in itself irrational because the premise itself is incorrect. The legions aren't faulty, the guy who gave every reason for half his sons to turn against him is what's at fault. Something none of his loyal sons are willing to consider. Why are people like Angron leading his armies? Betrayal was to be expected.

[@matthewharr6881]

I think Guilliman is going to think "why didn't I think of that" there logic behind it

[@outis7080]

He already has. One of the greatest boons of the Codex is it allowed members of disparate chapters who've never met each other before to operate seamlessly.

[@matthewharr6881]

@@outis7080 not like a legion chapters working together is not the same as a legion, each legion had it own strengths but also had massive infrastructure behind them. More gose into legions then people think, a chapters resources don't even come close to a legion. A legion force was something would give even the Eldar pause.

[@outis7080]

@@matthewharr6881 Resources and infrastructure the Imperium could no longer support nor provide. Most legions had single homeworlds. The Heresy has permanently crippled the Imperium. Not only had it lost irreplaceable resources, the Schism of Mars ensured its technological stagnation. Even if the heresy hadn't occurred, the legions were good for rapidly conquering the Galaxy, but they are too unwieldy for the needs of the Imperium post-GC. There's also the added benefit of reducing the ability of Chaos corruption to spread within the ranks of Astartes.

[@matthewharr6881]

@@outis7080 not what I meant and if chapters pulled all their resources, they could form a logion there is still enough to do that in desperation, it not that things are lost no one really understands most of what they have. The imperium if it took the time could recover.

[@outis7080]

@@matthewharr6881 They may come close to legion size in numbers, but they would have nowhere near the materiel(both quality and quantity wise) the legions fielded. As per my previous comment, the Heresy has permanently crippled the Imperium. Equipment which were commonplace during the GC are now ill understood relics. This is compounded by most chapter home worlds being primitive death worlds. The only lineage who could band together into something resembling their pre-Heresy progenitors is ironically the Ultramarines. Their focus on fostering diplomatic ties with other Imperial factions and uplifting the people of their home worlds gives the political and economic foothold to do such a thing. While yes, the First still operates as a legion behind the scenes, the Unforgiven is a broken reflection of the legion that once was before the fall of Caliban. They lost most of their unique equipment and formations.

[@lordcrakkin965]

Rho, normally I completely agree with you. I always love your videos. BUT...I think you are forgetting something. Rowboat Girlyman is the ultimate organiser. He "knows" things. He "knows" people. Just like Perty knows how to crack a castle and Rogal "knows" how to build one. Smurf Daddy KNOWS people. He especially KNOWS Rogal, as they had conflict. I don't think he will be surprised. In fact, I bet he counted on Rogal issuing a secret "defend Terra" protocol. Pappa Smurf knew that the Emperor issued the "protector of Terra" title to Rogal when Rogal had a legion, thus the duty fell upon his shoulders WITH his legion, as his method of defending Terra. I don't think Rowboat would ever directly go against the Emperor's wishes. Allowing Rogal to maintain the "last stand" protocol, while Rogal breaks his legion into chapters complies with both concepts. Big Daddy's desires are fulfilled, plus Big Daddy's failures are not relived. We all saw how rowboat handled the sons of the wolf. He KNOWS the wolves never broke into chapters. NEVER. It could be said...Roboute Guilliman counted on Leman Russ to be ready to strike, Rogal Dorn to be ready to defend, Lionel Johnson to burn the traitors... This is why he is so good at organising. He KNOWS people. If you want more evidence, look at his handling of the high lords of terra, the assassins, the Minotaurs... That is his masterclass in "knowing people".

[@Bumbaclart247]

You KNOW what you’re talking about

[@lordcrakkin965]

@@Bumbaclart247 You are too kind. TY

[@malachijohnson3437]

damn son

[@argentaegis]

I think this is half the reason for the Codex. It's not there for a superior organization of military forces. It's there to protect the Imperium from a time without Loyalist Primarchs. It's there to prevent a Dark Angels Legion Commander from doing Dark Angel Secret Things on legion scale. It's there to keep an Ultramarine Legion from taking Ultramar it's own way. It's there to keep Imperial Fists from deciding that Terra needed to be protected from the baseline humans and their incompetence. It's there to keep the rest of the Imperium from deciding that they'd already gotten rid of a few legions of super human death machines, and the rest are just as big a threat. A lot of the codex is apparently military instruction and information, but I'd be really surprised if the purpose of it wasn't political.

[@johnxiii660]

Great comment!

[@rm06c]

I'm imagining Trazyn and Guilliman traveling across the universe to piece together history in a Rick-and-Morty style adventure series

[@thor9517]

That would be awesome.

[@FormerGovernmentHuman]

Idk if Trazyn could help himself from collecting Guilliman…

[@Nempo13]

@@FormerGovernmentHuman It is known he has Fulgrim's clone and he has one of the lost Primarch's (the Space Wolves killed the other one). Since he has a primarch he won't feel a need to collect others.

[@Vasilefs_Terranorum]

@@FormerGovernmentHumantbf he probably won’t collect someone without whom the galaxy would fall apart. He doesn’t want the imperium to fall to chaos any more than humans do. It wasn’t even his instinct to take Fulgrim, Bile insisted that he take him and Trazyn was flabbergasted but only too happy to do so.

[@vlad78th]

The Guilliman of the 42k millenium would imho approve of the last wall protocole from a practical point of view. Chapters and legions were only tools, what matters was never the means but the end and Guillimand always stated the codex had to be a guideline, nothing more and certainly not a creed.

[@attemptedunkindness3632]

Wouldn't be surprised if every chapter was in fact legion strength (Mor Deythan being restarted under Shrike but taking members from all subchapters for example) but the other non-bright yellow chapters can actually keep their ambitions secret... Perhaps the only reason we hear about the 7th's Last Wall contingency is because Dorn is as subtle as a rock so, it's probably a "secret" that even a common peasant on a distant Agriworld could probably tell you about: "Oh yeah, Dorn's great secret legion... our village does a play about it every Secundis."

[@joeford5181]

The Lion: You made my Legion into a chapter. (Azrael whispers) The Lion: Oh thank you for making my Legion into "Chapter "...

[@lordcrakkin965]

Exactly

[@Warmaster2001]

Azrael: hehehe our scheme is working my lord) Lion: yup. No lets go kill some chaosites. Dante is in depression so let's relief him shall we. Azrael: of course. Asmodai! Asmodai: INTERROGATE?! Azrael: time to make black legion repent. Asmodai: REPEEEEEENT! Sapphon: throne damn it Azrael. Now I must chase him!

[@joeford5181]

@@Warmaster2001 Azrael: I told him to invite Leandros

[@Warmaster2001]

Azrael; exactly my lord)

[@russellwarren9595]

we don't know if Rogal was intending to let Roboute know about it or not. i think he would see the benefits of the Last Wall protocol. After all Guilliman knew that he could never plan for absolutely everything, having the ability to reform a legion relatively quick could be a very powerful contingency

[@viktoriyaserebryakov2755]

He nearly declared war on Rogal for not complying. Why would he risk telling him about it?

[@miguelperez9906]

I could see him using a concept similar to the last wall protocol/the actions of the 9th bloodline during deviation. Having the chapters functioning as psudo legions. Multiple chapterss having to function together rather than completely individuals

[@Nempo13]

Well, you have the Templars legit being at Legion strength (or close enough to it) though they are split all over the galaxy in crusade fleets. The Wolves have never stopped being a legion. They straight up refused to split apart and no one was able to do anything about it. After all, they are space marines who are literally specialized at killing other space marines. There is a reason they cut down Grey Knights so easily compared to how other marines have ever fared against them. So that is already 2 legions out there. All Salamander chapters and successors also have a similar protocol. When Vulcan comes back they will all reform into a legion behind him IMMEDIATELY. This is a known thing given how close they all are.

[@gamechanger8908]

​​@@Nempo13 Legion strength by average is 100,000 Astartes. I don't think going on an eternal crusade can get a chapter into getting such numbers. At best they have 5-10 Ultramarine Legion Company's(which is 1,000 Space Marines) worth of Astartes split all over the galaxy.

[@Bumbaclart247]

If the Last Wall Protocol was enacted, the remaining Celestial Lions would tell Bobby G about how they were massacred by the inquisition… now that would be spicy

[@PrimarisBlackTemplaDraven]

The Last Wall protocol is the family reunion i hope the DaDornable finally answer it.

[@cj4857]

Hey dude, cheers for the upload, just what i needed before my nightshift, many thanks WLR

[@dmajor9982]

You’re forgetting that Dorn never lied. Was likely the only way he’d agree to the codex and He probably told Gman straight up. And the Gman. Both primarchs are pragmatic

[@attemptedunkindness3632]

Dorn is also as subtle as... well, Dorn. He probably loudly proclaimed The Last Wall Protocol should be kept a secret from Robute via planetwide vox broadcast over Terra.

[@viktoriyaserebryakov2755]

@@attemptedunkindness3632 He's not st"pid.

[@WiseStrategist]

I can't remember which one, but I think Guilliman, in either in the first or second Dawn of Fire has said that he somewhat regrets disbanding the legions. I think he would be ok with something last wall protocol for truly dire situations. Though this would probably be weighed against situations where breaking up the legions prove to be the right decision given what happened during the Badab War. If Guilliman was ever even able to get at least 75% of the story on that, especially the inquisition role.

[@kharnthebetrayer1575]

It is .

[@MandoSki464]

Being such a practical being I definitely could see Guilliman not only approving of the last wall protocol but encouraging the sons of Dorn to institute it when necessary but I could see the inquisition trying something stupid thinking the sons of Dorn were consolidating to much power and strength. They always come out of the woodwork to screw humanity as much if not more than help humanity. I mean they are already sort of hunting the Lion so who knows

[@Warmaster2001]

Seriously Jonson now is in Inquisition's kill list number 1?

[@P_Fighter893]

Guilliman is forced to enact the Lastwall Protocol, Rogal Dorn shows up. G: Dorn? How can this be? I was told you had died. D: You have enacted the Lastwall Protocol. All Imperial Fists are to arrive.

[@Warmaster2001]

G: oh ok. R: so what is it brother? Where shoud me and my sons strike? G: Tyranids in Pacificus sector they must be stopped there otherwise they will reach Solar. R: Understood brother. We going to Pacificus. I missed you brother. G: I know. I missed you too). Now go duty calls. If you need my sons help you know what to do brother. R: of course my brother. R: of course

[@Judge_of_Anubis05]

I do think Guilliman was right to break up the legions but situations can call for certain actions to be undertaken

[@Werrf1]

Is Guilliman really that petty? So small that, after everything he's been through, with the state the Imperium is in, he'd get pissy because Dorn had a backup plan? No. If Dorn returns, Guilliman will embrace his brother and beg for his help.

[@ghostranger5890]

I think if the Legions are to be brought back, they should be brought back alongside the Chapters in full. The Chapters would continue to serve as powerful protective shields, maybe even increasing their maximum size to 2,000 or 3,000 and reforming the Legions to serve as the Imperium's blades. Because simply calling to reform a legion from existing Chapters would draw them away from their stationed systems and sectors, creating debilitating vulnerabilities. Whereas if the Legions existed alongside the Chapters, no such vulnerabilities would form.

[@nathanwilcut3360]

Increase the 2nd founding chapters strength to 10,000. There what 40 to 50 of them? All other chapters to 2,000. Any time a legion strength is needed just get 2 or 3 second founding chapters to form the core of it and what ever chapters are near by. And once the threat is destoyered it breaks up

[@ravenniwolvarious8801]

Great points thanks Rho. Could he not use a half way house and up the numbers from 1 thousand to 10 per Chapter. Still low in grand scheme but much more able to react.

[@brian2888]

Or select like 10 brother chapters to converge into a unified pseudo legion battle group of 10,000 (and they could be changed and shifted depending on need). I think it would be nice to have unique character interactions between familiar brother chapters. As well as the fact that 1,000 space marines let alone a company can barely hold a planet worldwide.

[@argentaegis]

Here's what I'd like to see in a quiet room after their initial reunion: RG: "I wanted to ask about The Last Wall..." RD: Steadfast and resolute in his reasoning, gives a calm, if fierce, defense of the protocol. Refusing to give an inch on it. He ends by pointing out that even Guilliman has reformed legion scale forces in the Indomitus fleets. RG: Pauses with his face somewhat clenched, perhaps twitching a bit, then...smiles, "Brother...where do you think I got the idea?" Both laugh, realizing that RG's asking for advice, and behave like mature competent adults moving forward, recognizing the risks that legions pose, and the need for their power...and try to find a way to bring that force to bear without causing catastrophic disruption or sowing the seeds of fragmentary legion empires.

[@BLOODKINGbro]

Ronald was the most honest of the primarchs. He despised lying and had many arguments with Malcoldor.

[@ScorpionTechReviews]

If Guilliman knows, and he might, he's surely congratulating Rogal in absentia since they've both reached the same conclusion, more or less. Guilliman clearly mentions that he's giving up recreating the Legions in the 42nd millennium for the sole reason that if he didn't, many would accuse him on clinging to power and being a hypocrite. I'm really curious to see GW continue to tell the story of Guilliman after the return of the Lion.

[@ctjmaughs]

Expect the regent to switch between Gulliman and the Lion

[@Ultramar565]

I would love to hear Guilliman and Rogal Dorn in conversation

[@brownehawk7744]

I feel Guilliman would understand. He was ready to start a whole new star empire soon as he got cut off from the astronomicon, so its only logical his brother and also son of the emperor would have some type of emergency plan.

[@andarchy1386]

How sick would that be just the Templars and crimson fists together not to mention the other successors it would be a force to be reckoned with certainly!!

[@andarchy1386]

They always change successors lineage who else is a fist successor Hammers of dorn,aren't the executioners supposed to be

[@lordcrakkin965]

The Templars would be disgusted by Rogal Dorn's lack of faith. That is a scene I want to read over and over again.

[@jonasnielsen6285]

Your videos feel like a student trying to extend his 0,5 page report to 10 pages.

[@irontuzi3453]

I disagree with this notion that the codex was a mistake. I think most people fail to realize just how poorly the Space Marines would be viewed at the end of the Heresy. I've always seen the chapters as a compromise which averted a second civil war which the Imperium simply could not afford.

[@michaelribeiro5777]

Guilliman seems pragmatic and I don't know if he would care seeing it as a point in time override, like his in the Indominus Crusade. I am more aligned to your last part, the benefit of it, and it's pragmatism.

[@treecat71]

There was a novel several years ago, before The Primach’s Return where several different Ultramarine successors fought together. Probably a battles novel, but I have no clue about the title. So I wonder if they don’t already have something similar to the Last Wall protocol.

[@cogline9]

There's was also a lot (not sure if all but a whole hell of a lot of them) Ultramarine Successor Chapters that originally drove the Nightlords from Tsaguals according to Talos' memories in the Nightlord's novel series.

[@RipperRiz]

Love.the channel Mr Rho. Keep up the good work. 👍🏼

[@Aurondarklord]

I don't think Dorn ever concealed it. Guilliman allowing the Last Wall was probably his price for agreeing to the Codex. And it's not only Fists who do it. Dante calling the Sanguinary Brotherhood to Baal was an example of Last Walling in all but name, he didn't get in trouble, it was never even suggested he was doing something illegal. All First Founding chapters are allowed to Last Wall in sufficiently desperate circumstances, as long as it's only temporary and they don't become a legion again it's fine.

[@John-jc3ty]

chapters and legions arent mutually exclusive. there could be the chapter system like it is now, but also there could be 5 or more legions, for when you need the extra punch

[@Quintus_Fontane]

Whilst he's not perfect, Big Bobby G's no fool, and he's also fairly pragmatic. If he's gone through so much history, even censored history, he's already seen how when the Imperium is faced with a sudden big-bad threat, even an entire chapter sometimes just isn't enough, often resulting in total or near total wipes of entire chapters which takes them centuries to recover from, which itself then leaves entire sectors incredibly vulnerable without their local chapter around to put out all the fires. Now that they're facing down the chomping maw of Leviathan, I do think that he'd see the absolute sense in having something like the Last Wall Protocol cemented in place with all OG chapters and their successors for times of extreme crisis, so that when something happens and you absolutely cannot afford to F around, you can flick a switch and then quite swiftly that massive incoming threat is staring down the barrels of an entire legion with as close to a unified command structure as you can get in the modern Imperium, and that would be a very different hurdle for xenos and chaos to overcome.

[@TheDarkhorizons80]

I don't think he would be shocked. Look at Baal. Pretty much the same thing when he rolled up. Nearly every blood angel chapter reforming under Dante

[@timothyseger8720]

I think guilliman would be a little jealous that he didn’t think of it first

[@sgs9932]

Technically, this means that Guilliman might also read the story about Chiapas Cain, since it's a published writings by Inquisition.

[@80krauser]

This makes me happy.

[@kccustodes2618]

So much to unpack in this video... Where is it stated Custodes information is not accurate? I think Guilliman would be happy to have a legion, or two, in these times so Last Wall Protocol might be a pleasant surprise for him. Or what about all the nonsense about Guilliman having enemies such as Inquisition or High Lords, etc. and then out of the nowhere The Lion walks out of shadow with his legion intact and says, "Oh thank goodness! Guilliman, my nerdy little brother, you need to do some taxes and logistics for me. I have started protecting humanity and I need you! Oh, who are these dorks that are giving you a hard time, need me to sort it out little brother?". Great video. I have not wanted to delve into the complete story of Guilliman returning until I read the Lion: Son of the Forest and now am fully vested in current times. With that said, what is a solid book list that gets me all the most recent info?

[@RevolverRho]

Devastation of Baal, Fall of Cadia, Cawl: The Great Work, Dark Imperium series

[@RevolverRho]

And read the footnotes on the Arks of Omen campaign

[@kccustodes2618]

@RevolverRho thank you! Also reminding me that I still need to get Ark of Omen: Abbadon. Was sold out every time I checked. Prob in stock now tho

[@CrimsonTemplar2]

And then there’s the work done by historators like Occulus Imperia.

[@garypipe1770]

I would love a book following a remembrancer looking into history the Inquisition has tried to erase. There are so many different events it and would be great to have that non-combat perspective in the grimdark

[@anthonyjordanmoviesandmore2470]

I think the last wall protocol needs to apply to every chapter

[@jamricsloe]

I’d like to see what he thinks about the inquisition sabotaging a certain chapter.

[@Bumbaclart247]

Celestial Lions 😢

[@viewernewest]

Maybe Guilliman should pay a visit to the blood ravens library.

[@Brynngar1983]

You're forgetting the theoretical/practical that guilliman and the ultramarines use. I'm sure he at least he knows about it if not all the details.

[@wolfinstedd]

I been saying have dorn as a dreadnought would be nic3 counter kit to chaos demon primarchs

[@warwolf88]

spacemarine chapters should be allowed to expand the size of their chapters as they see fit😊

[@Blue_Maxxx]

Rob should have a long conversation with Bjorn and see what all he can remember. I don't think the last wall protocol would surprise Rob I think he would expect it. Didn't the Blood Angels basically use a last wall protocol on Baal?

[@davidring681]

Honestly I completely disagree that Guilliman wouldn’t know or have agreed with the last wall protocol. I bet every legion has a similar backup plan. The Blood Angels all Came together as a legion to fight the nids. The Dark Angels did the same in the arks of omen to fight Vashtor. And the Ultramarines did it when Guilliman came back during the Indomitus crusades. Seems perfectly logical

[@NachtjagerVII]

Breaking the Legions into chapters was a huge mistake, turning a unified entity into fragments led directly to their downfall.

[@anthonyjordanmoviesandmore2470]

Honestly I think he would actually approve of the last wall protocol and understand the necessity of it it's clearly a desperation play

[@RobouteGuilliman-M41]

Contingencies, upon contingencies", yet he couldn't think of a contingency to fight off the Iron Warriors, who almost exterminated the Imperial Fists, and would have, were it not for the timely arrival of the Ultramarines. Then, Dorn got salty that he had to be saved, thanks to his poor leadership. He failed in the Iron Cage, he failed in the Siege of Terra, he failed to protect his 'father'. As someone once said: "‘You will die, as your weakling father died. Soulless. Honourless. Weeping. Ashamed." It's also silly and insulting to think Lord Commander Guilliman couldn't think of a "Last Wall Protocol", on his own.

[@tb1271]

For me, the chapters were right for an Imperium without any real leader (i.e. the High Lords). Though I think they should have been bigger, say 10-25K. But if you want to assault a major enemy, in this case chaos, then you need an army of Astartes, or a Legion. However, I would want them to be made of a mix of gene-seeds.

[@tneal89]

The answer for the absence is obvious! Clearly Guilliman was as embarrassed by the War of the Beast series as everyone else and simply opted to sweep that Horus Heresy wannabe series under the rug alongside the likes of CS Goto, (most) of Matt Ward, and that time a no-name work-for-hire Black Library writer tried to claim "no srsly guys, Chaos was responsible for the War in Heaven because reasons". Or as TTS put it: "the War of the Beast was weird".

[@Coproquim]

He ain't got a leg to stand on. Imperium Secundus

[@eichler721]

The original founding Chapters should have been left at 10k Astartes and then all the successors at 1K. Then you have the fast reaction force and the sledgehammer blow of a Proto Legion that would have crushed so many threats.

[@TheFaulkned]

Absolutely not. He would be devastated. Rogal was one of his dauntless few. And he was arguably closer to Rogal then any of his other brothers... maybe corax. He would need some time to sort through that emotional baggage. So no he hasn't put ot all together. But I think when he reflects on it. He will come to terms fairly quickly. Recognizing where he was a fault. He's still human. And he wouldn't hold it against Dorn. More likely he would want to talk to Dorn's sons for more information. But that's just my thoughts

[@waynehaygood3122]

The Custodies should have records of the war of the beast and the last wall if anyone does they should also have records of goge, badab, and anyother major event that would threaten the empire and who could tamper with those files???$$$+++

[@mikemoore2791]

I think Gilly would see the need for it, given the state of affairs now.

[@fightforaglobalfirstamendm5617]

All 9 founding chapters should increase to 10,000 Astartes. Both Primarchs should command their founding chapter and one full chapter of each of the 8 other blood lines for a mixed blood Special force to lead their crusades.

[@jacobdarling1524]

I think the Last Wall will eventually be enacted but not by Guilliman. The current pattern is that legions get reformed upon the return of their primarch. So if anyone is going to reform the Fists into a legion it’s probably going to be Dorn.

[@jjstone1645]

Just the one fist actually

[@jwb_666]

Gman admitting failure? admitting Dorn was right? Saviour of the Imperium? You'd sooner have Cato Sacarius admitting he's not perfect

[@Meatsquadron]

LAST WALL!!! @chapter master valrak !!! Great video as always Mr Rho.

[@longfellowdeeds4699]

Valrak is ass

[@timothylyons5686]

The problem is if you allow the last wall protocol then youvarectakingvforcescfrom onebbattlefield and sending to another. Losses of space marines and the time it takes to train new recruits into battleline brothers and the loss of geneseed could probe fatal.

[@MrKakemann1]

The Last Wall Protocol.... Imagine the true numbers of the Black Templars showing up 😁 The "high lords" and the inquisition would shit their pants if that ever happened.

[@RenYori2099]

One of the problems with chapters is that each chapter is its own individuality; they have their own structure for war, traditions, and commands. It will be problematic to work together as a whole. it is possible but it won't be easy.

[@jonharrison9222]

Yet the Fists and their successors managed it.

[@Wustenfuchs109]

@@jonharrison9222 Because the idea that that is a problem - is false. We have (and have had) units with vastly different mentality and traditions, fighting together in history as a unified force. It is not really like they are completely alien to one another. And despite the insistence on "different doctrine", you can make only so much difference when you are using the same structure and the same weapons as everyone else. In short, there are more similarities between them than there are differences. Which is why we can instantly recognize them as space marines. I know that the lore tries to make them their own thing, vastly different etc. but in reality the wargame is constricting it and forces a larger degree of uniformity than you have in most, if not all, active armies in the world today.

[@gamechanger8908]

The thing is. The Legion themselves had very differing cultures even within. The Dark Angels Legion for example had differing orders and wings that functioned differently. The Dreadwing for example were known for having maintained their Terranborn counterparts Scandinanvian culture and practices. Despite being known for their WMD. The Firewing were very Alpha Legion in their work. Being the most secrative of the Dark Angels. The Ironwing were more like Imperial Fist and mastering Siege Warfare and Fortifications. The Ravenwing were known for their mounted warfare and were the most prominent for demanding to learn traditional horsemenship in hunting the great beasts back in Caliban. Their templates were the basis for the White Scars. It's why Corswain fulfill his role as Seneschal and Champion to unite his Legion from their differing, Order/Wings.

[@zedhiro6131]

I always said that they were both correct, Gilliman was right after the heresy, Rogal was correct now.

[@toi_techno]

I'd buy that book myself

[@pierce4424]

I think you mean "what on Terra is going on?"

[@tauras3108]

I’m pretty sure the Grey knights of Titan would have an extensive collection of historical records. Just saying.

[@kharnthebetrayer1575]

They are not happy with him after GodBlight .

[@MichaelWilson-dm4gz]

What about Jborn? Couldn't he shed light?

[@regalforever]

I believe RG has started to see the mistake of the chapters. He disowned it himself with his unnumbered sons and this hypocrisy was justified by him as for the good of the imperium. The high lords were nervous he wouldn’t let go of the legions again after the crusade. He only handed out the unnumbered sons for political reasons and because he couldn’t see a good outcome for keeping them. The sons of Russ tore the fleet masters a new one upon discovering the “legion breaker” had ignored his own codex laws!

[@ArchAngelWC]

I'm of the view that the Codex Astartes and its fear of "ohh shit...Horus" nerfed the Space Marines because they could never really generate momentum....if the Blood Angels went in and had a terrible battle where they won....that was it.... it wasnt like they had the ability to really press their advantages they were effectively acting as a lever for the Astra Militarum do some heavy lifting here and there and everywhere wheras if there was 10,000 Blood Angels, 10,000 Flesh Tearers, yada yada.....I mean the Astral Claws for instance wouldn't have died as they'd have another 9400+ marines......or imagine 10,000 Salamanders doing a pyro march against tyranids :)

[@Its_Cannon]

Last wall: United Imperial Fist Legion. Lion: Unites Dark Angels Legion. Gulliman: Commands Blueberries Legion. *Legions are back Baby*

[@cogline9]

Space Wolves: "You guys actually broke apart?"

[@gamechanger8908]

Imperium Secundus!

[@c.m.4313]

BA did it to save Baal and RG knew that

[@grayfullbuster1242]

The last wall protocol usually doesnt work. They got wipe out to a single survivor, heck the other Succercors chapters didnt really cared if the Fist died completly but they felt bad that they gave each Succercors that was there gave gave them space marine as a trade lol You can say the Imperial fist chapter was entirely wipe out. Because there tradtion where mix with other chapter's. But thanks to cawl brought them Primaris marines. So in sense the IF is back

[@tonytony7756]

Horon would hating this

[@bradleyhall1815]

Using the benefits of both chapters and the might of a legion? Last FIRST in unforgiven. Always first. 😂

[@mykelengieza7057]

ALGORITHM

[@87mstockwe]

@chaptermastervalrak where you at bruh

[@benchartrand3014]

Were you struggling for a topic here? I don't think Guilliman would be all that bothered or surprised by the last wall protocol. Indomitus and the primaris kind of render this discussion moot anyway.

[@troybalster3687]

Hell go back so far in our own history and alot of stuff is lost. Go back thousands of years galaxy wide and yeah good luck there.

[@MrCitizen0]

Hmmmmm

[@maciekwilkosz6377]

Last Wall Protocol is overrated. Legions of old were also split into chapters in their structure. It's no difference if and Indomitus fleet contains one legion or multiple chapters. It's only a matter of hubris and personal power.

[@crippletime]

Algorithm comment

[@raftguy1376]

Gulliman writes the rules. That way he can be a hypocrite while breaking them.

[@andrew1230981]

Wonder what @Oculasimperia thinks of this ?