The Latin Mass: Unity or Uniformity? w/ Joseph Pearce

[@dandimock6447]

People commenting their opinions on a 13 minute video, 5 minutes after it was posted, where the topic of the title isn’t even brought up until 12 minutes into the video 😂

[@jackieo8693]

@@dandimock6447 I am guilty of that lol

[@Emma-wl5rh]

Love the shoutout for Geailge! Go mbeannaí Dia daoibh!

[@douglassmith7145]

I love this interview with Joseph - he is a wonderful man

[@jackieo8693]

Catholicism itself is universal.

[@NateeB1]

"According to the whole" , but so popular it has become "Universal"

[@cazwalt9013]

@@NateeB1 catholic literally means universal in Greek not because it became popular

[@NateeB1]

@@cazwalt9013 comes from two Greek words kath' holou, and means according to the whole.

[@NateeB1]

@@cazwalt9013 katholikos is an adjective and means universal...Plus, according to whole means a lot more. Since we want to be one church as christ is one with the Father.

[@gregoryross1693]

It's a "both and" answer much more than it's a one or the other answer. The different nets (liturgical forms/rites) are cast out from the church over different periods - some longer than others, others more tailored for specific fish. If you *know* your NO at a deep level, you can go to any country and be there, for you are the liturgy in action and memory. If you *know* the various historical forms or the other rites, you can see the same approach to calvary laid out before you: the intro, collect, scripture, songs of praise and crying, the offering, the sacrifice, the celebrating, the departure to bring it all to the world. Big big ocean requires multiple nets all thrown from the same ark.

[@colinwithonel]

Well I was in Sweden for Mass on a Sunday this summer, and I was able to follow along just fine, with having learned Norwegian out of a book for a few months prior. Of course I didnt really grasp the Swedish words, rather it was helpful to me to work through it by seeing the Latin printed next to the Swedish in the Missal. But this was also not necessary for my wife who does not know either language, to be able to do all the usual things we do in the liturgy, and to participate prayerfully in it. Neither one of us knew what the homily was about, but that would not have been Latin anyway. So really its a bit of a red herring to hold that we must have one language and one language only. Even though I have studied Latin, I dont know every word, so its all foreign to me either way. Only in English do I grasp everything fully, because that is my language. But I can still pray without the comfort of my own language. So I just dont think it really matters all that much, as long as you have your usual and you understand it sufficiently from a formation standpoint. But if anything Latin should be made more available such as printing it in the books or using it from time to time, but without diminishing the use of vernacular in any given country. What if for example one or two parishes in every deanery said one of the Sunday masses in Latin, using the Ordinary Form? What would be the harm in that? Small compromises like that allow for true diversity, while also maintaining traditional aspects. Or allow more of the mass to be said in Latin on a regular basis, not just during Lent with the Sanctus. We already do weird hybrid bilingual masses where everyone has to deal with a portion of the mass they cannot understand. Rather, we could adopt Latin as our bilingualism approach, and we could be more intentional about featuring Latin without having to go back in time. It doesnt always have to be this grandiose war between modern innovation and rad tradism. We could have a real diversity between these polarities be our norm, if we really wanted to.

[@ghostlyimageoffear6210]

Exactly. The churches around here do a Spanish and Vietnamese Mass, separately. Since I attend a Latin Mass, we all have a Missal in our own preferred languages, but the sermon of course is given in English, since these other people came to an English speaking country--we didn't go there.

[@IvoryMaestro]

Excellent point at the end

[@willing_spirit6830]

Yes, never even thought about the fact that as soon we have a global network, the unity of the Church is dissolved.

[@Mxswanson500]

Great clip

[@jimmyrumney4379]

I have only allowed my children to listen to pints with Aquinas since they were born. and instead of their southern accent, they sound Australian.

[@VandeVisscher]

You should have gone to flanders, Belgium. There you get another accent in almost every village (at least in the west). You would even have variation in vocabulary.

[@GMurph2336]

Everytime I hear about the TLM, I feel like people are talking about this club within the Church that is better than everyone else. I don’t have access to TLM, never been but man, it gets talked about on Catholic KZbin like if your church is NO, you’re some lesser form of Catholic.

[@judgmentaltoast]

I’m sorry that that has been your experience. As someone who found the tlm and Catholic tradition 10 years ago, I think it’s really the awe and excitement and reverence that we have when we find out about all the beauty and tradition of traditional Catholicism. This excitement and awe can be similar to those who have just converted to Catholicism and are burning with zeal for the jewel they have found. That might be why you feel that way but please understand that most of us tlm-going Trads simply love this jewel we have found and want to share it. Online it’s easier to bump into weirdo trads who take things way too far. I hope that makes sense.

[@GMurph2336]

@@judgmentaltoast yeah makes sense. I prefer traditional things to newer styles but as I said, I don’t have access to the TLM. There are plenty of things I dislike about NO too, like guitars and throwing the peace sign, for example.

[@damnedmadman]

​@@GMurph2336Well, because Tradition really does enrich us. I understand that your inability to fully share in this wealth is frustrating, but it's not the fault of the "wealthy". Yes, being poor is worse than being rich, let's be honest. But in today's world you can immerse yourself in Tradition in numerous ways, not just the liturgy. I'm also frustrated by how scarce is the TLM nowadays, both in time and space. But on the other hand, that scarcity makes it shine even brighter. There were and still are many places where a Priest would arrive to the village only a few times a year, which does impoverish the people there, but on the other hand, the Mass means a lot more to them 😊

[@MatthewThomas-ye1ei]

go visit a tlm some day, the groups of us in the old mass are not exclusive to other Catholics in any way

[@cchronis8864]

I think the Latin Mass is beautiful as is a reverent NO. I love when both are blended. More often than not TLM only group act like elitist and come across as very judgmental, even angry. Now I know it’s not all but the divisiveness is real. We forget that God is in control and that the most important thing for the world to see is charity not division. One Church… different expressions as long as it’s holy and reverent. There is room for both.

[@Foreign0817]

I don't think so. It's just a traditional Roman Catholic mass. Eastern Catholics pray in Greek, Hebrew Catholics in well... Hebrew. It's all about tradition.

[@damnedmadman]

Well, both Greek and Hebrew/Aramaic are/were liturgical languages of the Catholic Church. The Latin Mass text itself contains words and phrases from these languages, for example "Kyrie eleison", "Christe eleison", "Sabaoth", "Hosanna". The word "Catholic" itself is Greek too. It's good, because it reaches to the roots. But adding liturgy in all languages for the sake of emancipation is not a Catholic thing to do. The Church is supposed to be the opposite of Babel, and praying in the same language with the same liturgy is a powerful way to demonstrate it.

[@Foreign0817]

@@damnedmadman Back to the one language teim. ☝️

[@tomredd9025]

@@damnedmadman Actually at Pentecost, everyone understood each other in spite of the fact that they all spoke different languages. The Mass is the same in any language. There is a higher Pentecost language than the one we hear with our ears. It is the Language of the sacred ritual we partake in. While the priest may speak some Nigerian language, we understand by his action exactly what is happening. The same Jesus comes to us. I guess you could say, he speaks the language of Heaven. God Bless you.

[@GuadalupePicasso]

“Eastern Catholics” traditionally pray in the vernacular, regardless of where they’re located (I assume that you’re specifically referring to Byzantine Rite Catholics)

[@Foreign0817]

@@GuadalupePicasso Yes. I know, there's many different rites.

[@cazwalt9013]

Italy has 12 official languages and I'm not even counting the Italian dialects btw

[@vinciblegaming6817]

I think Stephen R Lawhead has an interesting way of looking at ancient Anglo culture and its conversion to Christianity that he plays out in his books… how the early converts from Druidism utilize the ancient legends to point to Christ… Lloyd Alexander does something similar in his writing, too.

[@michaelvalor9480]

To me, it's not an unusual idea that Cockney and Australian may sound similar. If I recall correctly, weren't the First Fleet prisoners mostly from East London?

[@jordytheknifemaker]

lol TLM is not globalism.

[@Goncalo.]

you didn’t watch the video

[@SnowMonkeyCantSing]

Americans love Southern accents best.

[@Tyler-iv7po]

No

[@gonzalovelascoc.2953]

Latin Mass, as good as it might have been as a Sacrament celebration, is something that was changed to vernacular languages Mass. Latin made sense in the Roman empire since they all understood the language. The original Mass was in Aramaic! Things like that change. Jesus never changes 🙏

[@anthonyjones866]

Pope John XIII, in his 1962 Apostolic Constitution (one of the highest forms of papal authority) “Veterum Sapientia,” taught something different from what your comment says. The entire document is worth reading, but here is a taste: "By the working of its nature, the Latin language is most suitable for furthering every kind of cultural initiative among all sorts of peoples, since it does not incite jealousy, but is equally accessible to every race of men. It is not partisan, but rather, favorable and welcoming to all. Nor would it be right not to mention that there exists in the Latin language an innate, noble harmoniousness and propriety - 'a way of speaking which is dense with meaning, rich, and abundant, full of majesty and dignity.' It has qualities within it which are uniquely conducive both to clarity and to seriousness."

[@colingomes8446]

Wow! That was an amazing turnaround. From the church embracing different cultures being something beautiful to - no! We should have mass in only one language. I always thought culture included language. Attending mass in the language of the country should actually give a better appreciation of how global the Catholic Church really is. You don't need the same language to recognise that it's the same mass. What's more important is that the people who don't go around the world to attend mass, understand the mass better when it's in their own language. That point he made about Christ and Caesar was really grabbing at straws. If that's true then the mass should be in Aramaic.

[@anthonyjones866]

I hear what you’re saying, but I humbly recommend that you read Pope John XIII’s 1962 Apostolic Constitution (one of the highest forms of papal authority) “Veterum Sapientia.” There, you will find that the pope teaches something different from what your comment says. The whole document is worth reading, but here’s a taste: "By the working of its nature, the Latin language is most suitable for furthering every kind of cultural initiative among all sorts of peoples, since it does not incite jealousy, but is equally accessible to every race of men. It is not partisan, but rather, favorable and welcoming to all. Nor would it be right not to mention that there exists in the Latin language an innate, noble harmoniousness and propriety - 'a way of speaking which is dense with meaning, rich, and abundant, full of majesty and dignity.' It has qualities within it which are uniquely conducive both to clarity and to seriousness."

[@oldseer7610]

The true meaning of Christianity returns, not JC personally. It starts with- The proper understanding that biblical creation is of spiritual nature, not material nature has been discovered. Biblical creation is metaphors for psychological factors not material and is the creation of Adam. THE SECOND COMING OF CHRISTIANITY. (Basics) (sequence) I will send you Elijah before the great day of the lord.(the nut ball has arrived) 1 The entrance of Elijah the messenger. Embodied in the knowledge of the Old Seers. (The book of Rev. begins) 2 Christianity as present in the world is proven false. 3 The world falls into disbelief. 4 The world mostly takes on the new knowledge. 5 Governments are removed or become inert. 2 camps are created one good-the greater number falls away. 6 The good leave the cities, go into hiding for safety.3 7 End time arrives. The evil with no governance destroy their own kind. (by the hand of man will man's blood be shed)(the great day of the lord). 8 Proper Christianity remains. (natural man) 64

[@goodgoosespot9010]

Try the Maine accent.true,real,old timer maine one.I wouldnt say its pleasing.just saying when hollywood tries it,they make us sound like real idiots....

[@marygrey7034]

🕊. If the Church must have a standard language, then that language should be the language of Jesus. However, to be biblical; after the resurrection the Holy Spirit gave the apostles the ability to speak to everyone in his/her own language. God does NOT want a standard language. 🤔 satan is alive and active in the church. I trust that God will preserve His church as he promised. Be blessed.🕊

[@oldegeezer]

That's not exactly a proof that God is against a common language so much as God allowing the difference of languages to not be a hindrance to the apostles' ability to communicate.

[@jacktracy8356]

Galatians 3:1 KJV O foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, that you should not obey the truth, before whose eyes JESUS CHRIST has been evidently set forth, crucified among you? 2 This only would I learn of you, did you receive the SPIRIT by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the SPIRIT, are you now made perfect by the flesh (works)? 5 HE therefore that ministers to you the SPIRIT, and works miracles among you, does HE do it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 6 Even as Abraham believed GOD, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. 8 And the scripture, foreseeing that GOD would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. 10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse (sin and death): for it is written, Cursed is every one that continues not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. 11 But that no man is justified by the law (works) in the sight of GOD, it is evident: for, THE JUST SHALL LIVE BY FAITH.

[@John-qi9cj]

Novus Ordo is weak and effeminate. TLM is enduring and strong

[@vinciblegaming6817]

NO teaches those unfamiliar with Catholicism and the Mass like new Christian converts and low church Protestant converts. The TLM draws you deeper into what you are already familiar with and brings you higher… Both are good and have a purpose.

[@ParadoxPNC-fm4db]

The only thing that makes you enduring and strong is Christ and a willing heart to participate in his grace.

[@vinciblegaming6817]

@@ParadoxPNC-fm4dbthe mass is how we get more Jesus in our lives. I would love nothing more than for more Christians to see that as the chief end of the mass - to worship and adore the creator and savior of the world and to draw closer to him through his sacramental grace.

[@JJ-zr6fu]

Isn’t funny that on Pentecost the apostles preached in everyone’s native language but TLM now wants every language speaker to worship in a dead language they don’t understand?

[@a.r.4093]

I attend the ICKSP every Sunday, so this isn't an "anti-trad" attack. But I do believe comments like these come across as combative, in a way in which people are automatically turned off from traditionalism because of them. While it may be your personal opinion, I believe comments like these are best to be kept to oneself--as they can do more damage than good.

[@tomredd9025]

Bizarre. I am sorry this guy's comments are plain ridiculous. Didn't he ever hear of a little event called Pentecost where God reversed the curse of the Tower of Babel? Instead of a confusion of languages, God sent the Holy Spirit so that no matter what language you spoke, you could understand the teachings of Christ. With the Novus Ordo Mass and the return to the ancient Tradition of having Mass in the Language of the people, no matter which country you are in and what language is spoken, the Mass is the same. The actions of the priest are the same. The presence of Christ in his Body and Blood is the same. I don't think these so called "Radical Traditionalists" really have experienced how sterile the old Tridentine Mass had become. I served hundreds. The priest mumbled with his back to the people, and he was turned to the wall (please don't give me that "Ad Orientem" line). Most people just prayed the rosary. At my first Mass as a 10-year-old altar boy, I was literally scandalized. The priest rushed the prayers so fast, we altar boys were not even allowed to finish our responses. The old Latin Mass was so irreverent. The Heavens were crying out for reform!!!!! The old Tridentine Latin Mass had departed so far from what Jesus had envisioned at the Last Supper. When the Spirit guided the Church to restore the Mass to its ancient form and reverence, it was if the Heavens opened! I often think about how the beautiful Novus Ordo now aligns so much more closely with the Mass described by Justin Martyr in 140 A.D. Please have someone on your show who loves the beautifully restored rite of the Novus Ordo Mass and not someone who just wants to pontificate and scandalize the Faithful with false teachings. And by the way, you should have someone on your show knowledgeable enough to know that the Church does have official language, Greek (first), Latin and Old Slavonic. God Bless!

[@anthonyjones866]

I hear what you’re saying, but I humbly recommend that you read Pope John XIII’s 1962 Apostolic Constitution (one of the highest forms of papal authority) “Veterum Sapientia.” There, you will find that the pope teaches something very different from what your comment says about language. Latin is a unifying principle. Here’s a taste: "By the working of its nature, the Latin language is most suitable for furthering every kind of cultural initiative among all sorts of peoples, since it does not incite jealousy, but is equally accessible to every race of men. It is not partisan, but rather, favorable and welcoming to all. Nor would it be right not to mention that there exists in the Latin language an innate, noble harmoniousness and propriety - 'a way of speaking which is dense with meaning, rich, and abundant, full of majesty and dignity.' It has qualities within it which are uniquely conducive both to clarity and to seriousness. . . .The Apostolic See has in every age taken zealous care to preserve the Latin language, deeming it a material worthy that She should wear it Herself in the exercise of her own Magisterium, 'as if it were a magnificent cloak woven of heavenly teachings and sacrosanct laws' . . . .Forasmuch as 'every church' must keep itself 'in concord' with the Roman Church, and since the Roman Pontiffs have a power which is 'truly episcopal, ordinary and immediate both in every individual church and in every one of the pastors and faithful' of whatever rite, people, or language they may be, it seems entirely proper that there should be a universal and equitable instrument for mutual communication. . . .Moreover, the Latin language, which 'we may truly call catholic,' since it has been hallowed in perpetual use by the Apostolic See, the mother and teacher of all the churches, has to be treated as a 'treasure-house of incomparable excellence,' and as a sort of portal through which all can gain access to the Christian truths received from antiquity and to the great source texts of Church teaching." I recommend reading the entire document, as it was never abrogated and is therefore still the teaching of the Church (not some "Radical Traditionalist opinion")! It is beautiful.

[@ghostlyimageoffear6210]

Hmmm, opposite experience here, and I much prefer the Traditional Mass. Sounds like you had an apathetic priest, which seems nowadays to be more common in the Novus Ordo, in regards to religion itself and not the self-serving social aspect.