The Lies Go Deeper Than I Thought...

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[@backfire]

To be clear, 7PRC can indeed get to 3000 in handloading and I like the cartridge. It may be my favorite. BUT I’ve heard sooo many reports of people saying the Precision Hunter load is nowhere near what’s advertised that it’s notable. If you’re using the factory ammo for both, there’s no ballistic advantage to the 7 PRC over 6.8 Western. An "industry insider" who I know personally and claims to have inside information about this issue, but who wishes to remain anonymous, told me after publishing this video that Hornady was using Reloder 26 powder in the 7mm PRC initially and was close to the advertised velocity, but now can't get that powder and has switched to a ball powder that they can't get the same velocity with. If true, this sucks. A dramatic change to factory ammo without telling consumers and without updating the numbers on the box means consumers waste their money re-zeroing, re-doping, and guessing what will happen with their next box. Very poor transparency--though that is the common practice in the ammo industry. FREE ADVICE FOR AMMO MAKERS: Want to win some market share? Put a sticker on each box of ammo giving the velocity of the ammo FROM THAT LOT. Include the info from test barrels of 3 different barrel lengths and list them right there. It'd cost basically nothing and would make you IMMEDIATELY stand out from the competition.

[@shanejarratt9800]

Since I got my 6.8 western, in part thanks to your videos initially, I've shouted from the rooftops that the 7 prc isn't any better than the 6.8. Mine shoots right at 3000fps with the winchester ablr load. And it's pretty darn accurate as well

[@mhughes1160]

Perhaps manufacturers should list information on their websites Different barrel lengths , altitudes, temperatures , etc 🤔

[@The303corona]

Have you had a chance to test the 7 prc with hand loads or the federal ammo just trying to see some info on it I was planning on going and buying a 7mm prc in the next couple days but maybe double thinking that

[@jeremysmith5363]

So...im a member of backfire plus, but what is your honest opinion...if you were going to buy a 7.....what would you go with ....a 7mm rem....a 280 ai....or what... my 280ai... is shooting 2859 with a pretty mild handload... I was suprer excited to buy a 7prc...yet now after this video.... I think I may pump the breaks a while...and either use my 280 ai, 300 win or my old reliable 3006.....and maybe buy me a 22 creed....or a 6.8 western... or one of those point and click burris eliminators for a current setup... I don't know why you'd overpay for a 7prc when a 7mm rem mag exist at this point...

[@backfire]

Yes, I am shooting 2950 with Reloder 26 and a 175. But Reloder 26 is hard to come by. I’ve also shot the federal load and it’s much faster than Hornady precision hunter but I am yet to see anyone quite hit 3000 with factory ammo and a 24” barrel.

[@paulman1970]

As Paul Harrell says, their numbers are "optimistic".

[@lexwaldez]

Great quote. LOL 👍

[@mfortho]

I like the cross reference to Paul

[@Patrick-857]

Companies like Gamo, Benjamin, Crosman ect that make crappy break barrel airguns for inflated prices are about to get piston airguns requiring a very difficult to obtain firearms license here in NZ, thanks to their ridiculously over inflated velocity claims. Every industry is filled with lies. Also the police, politicians and activists either pretend to believe said velocity claims or are too ignorant and lazy to verify said claims. Marketing people are a scourge in this planet. It's going to ruin my hobby.

[@user-me3wn6ii4r]

Good day

[@alexpacura9810]

​@@Patrick-857can't blame companies when its the citizens that willingly gave their rights away in the first place.

[@ZeroXSEED]

I wish more creators would call the lies. Thanks for the work.

[@OutsidetheEchochamber]

Except he is lying just as bad, all other ammo manufacturers for the 7 PRC are getting near Horandys numbers kind of left that out. Acting like this is a 7 prc problem is dishonest 💯. Hornady is having supply chain issues with their powder nothing more nothing less.

[@sofloflow]

They dont wanna risk a potential sponsorship

[@seanmtactical6069]

To be very honest about being honest... There's a butt ton of backlash when you're honest in a gun video. I have a couple that I get seething comments on a regular basis. As my wife says, I seem to pull the pin on social media hand grenades routinely. If a creator makes a video pointing out bad product or information, it's guaranteed to receive regular negative posts. Hell, your post alone has one post calling Backfire a liar. LOL

[@OutsidetheEchochamber]

@@seanmtactical6069 lying through omission is still lying. He’s fully aware there are other manufacturers producing 7 prc ammo that get advertised velocities. He did edit and make some corrections on that so props for that and me call it was warranted

[@bryanduchane2371]

One of the best channels on KZbin. Great comment, great family and interesting subjects....

[@backfire]

Wow, thank you!

[@jacobsprouls4573]

My 7prc 22” proof barrel is avg 2753 with Hornady Precision Hunter ammo. I was disappointed too.

[@jasonshults368]

Those are 280/280 Ackley numbers.

[@timbjork2098]

At that speed the rem mag is kicking its butt.

[@gerry6.8]

Man that's bad, I wouldn't be happy either.

[@WayStedYou]

so you bought a 280AI

[@NCWoodlandRoamer]

Why would you buy a rifle chambered in a magnum cartridge with only a 22” barrel?

[@pauldickson1495]

Great video . Kinda shows that the old 30-06 with modern ammo is still in the race as a hunting cartridge . You can’t reinvent the wheel .

[@llamawizard]

Just here to say that .30-06 is the stuff.

[@D_Boone]

Never felt the need to buy a rifle that shoots anything else for big game.

[@Wk-is8eh]

I too like to stick with the tried and true calibers. I avoid the new ones until they've been around long enough to develop a track record

[@jacktrout5807]

Awe yes the turdy ooougt six the onliest rifle cartridge that should even exist ! Nuthin else is even fit Fer squirrel 😂 I could go on but I have a cousin to court. 😅

[@llamawizard]

@@jacktrout5807 sounds fun

[@iluvstrats2864]

The G.O.A.T.

[@okieking8329]

Ha! Because with the real numbers on the box people would see that the 7prc has no better ballistics than the 7mm Rem Mag. That doesn’t make for a hot seller….

[@Wildwestwrangler]

Thing is that 7 rem mag if you're a reloader has no problems hitting 3k fps with a 175gr or heavier bullet.

[@ReloadingWeatherby]

I got so many PRC fans upset at me for showing how the 6.8 Western beats the 7mm PRC with real world velocities. They said I was skewing the results

[@mikemelina7395]

Dude...how could anyone doubt *you* of all people?

[@ReloadingWeatherby]

@@mikemelina7395 Lots of people think I have it in it for the 7mm PRC... that I hate the cartridge. Which isn't true, I just think it's overrated

[@RexPeterson-wo4vq]

Came looking for this comment 😂

[@JJ-iu5hl]

I specifically said you weren't intentionally skewing the results. Just that you were getting data from one place, which doesn't work for statistical analysis. I also said we need more time with the new cartridge to work the kinks out. Hornady's initial lots were reportedly faster. Also, independent testers are reporting that the new Federal 7 PRC is far higher than current Hornady and even exceeding box velocities in some rifles. That means the potential for the cartridge is there. Im baffled that some people want this cartridge to fail so badly. It's like it affects them personally.

[@ReloadingWeatherby]

@JJ-iu5hl Well make sure to let Backfire know that this video isn't showing enough data for you

[@quinncunneen7845]

I thought Jim was the patron Saint of the 7 PRC. Happy he’s able to call out problems when he sees them.

[@travissmith-wz5nc]

Very true, but gets on board little to early. Kinda like the rest of us. Lol.

[@jeremysmith5363]

@@travissmith-wz5nc in his defense hornady sold it pretty good..

[@JJ-iu5hl]

To be fair to the 7PRC here, he's calling out Hornady's current ammo, that's all. Their initial ammo was apparently faster, and Federal is reportedly hitting box velocities. So the 7PRC is still a dandy, potentially. It just needs some time to get kinks worked out, like everything new and technical.

[@jimedick9496]

⁠@@JJ-iu5hl Exactly!!! I’m not a 7 PRC hater, it’s a great cartridge. I’m pissed at Hornady. When you follow the last two years and how things have progressed and the shady practices, all in order to shutdown the 6.8 Western? I don’t respect that. They lost me as a customer, which sucks, because I love my 6.5 PRC and the Hornady ammo that I shoot out of out.

[@matthewcampbell3199]

​@@jimedick9496I my experience hornady is crap ammo

[@connortracy7894]

As a lifelong hunter, but novice to the intricacies of ballistics, I’ve used this channel and others to make my purchase of my first new rifle and cartridge combo. From all I’ve researched I’m happy with my choice of a Bergara B-14 Wilderness Ridge in 7 rem mag. Living in a rural area of Montana out on the plains I’m a day hunter so the extra weight of the gun doesn’t bother me and I can find ammo easily in great bullets. Thank you to for all the info and videos to make purchases easier and simplify things for the newbies!

[@thepracticalrifleman]

143 ELD-X at 2975 in my 24” PRC. Same barrel, same bullet 2730 FPS in 6.5 Creedmoor.

I honestly thought Jim was in bed with Hornady since he got one of the first 7 PRC’s. But this is actually very impressive that he would be willing to do this. He’s not saying the PRC is bad but he’s actually showing the world what we already know but it takes a big name like him to actually say this so hopefully the 6.8 western will get a revival because we all knew this with the seven PRC. I applaud him for being the first person to do rock on 💪

[@SAR0311]

Did you feel smarter than the average bear when you thought Jim was shilling for hornady?

[@ChronicalsofAl]

Hornady s arrogance has no boundaries. I only wish Browning would actually support the 6.8 western like they cared about it's success

[@timothywright1318]

Keep pumping your videos out! I sure love watching these! 🙌

[@shawnbuonarosa3188]

Backfire, purveyor of truth and bane of the dishonest manufacturer. Good work, appreciate all the work you do.

[@xxshiftlockxx]

Don't forget to rule out/test 6.5 PRC and 6.5 Creedmoor Hornady Match ammo as well... for the PRC and 147's the advertised speed is 2910. Shooting them out of a brand new CVA Cascade with a 24" barrel here in Utah at 5k feet, the actual velocity over an average of 10 shots was only 2727... that's 183fps slower than advertised on the box. I've also noticed this with Hornady Match 140gr in 6.5 Creedmoor. It's listed at 2710fps. I've now tested this in 3 different Creedmoor's, all factory. Weatherby Vanguard, Savage Axis, and a Tikka t3 lite. ALL of them averaged about 2615 to 2620. That's about 100fps slower than advertised on the box... Hornady is most DEFINITELY lying about their velocities on their boxes.

[@jamiepezoulas4546]

I’ve seen several videos of the 7prc not performing as stated on the box, and not just by a little. Usually around 200 fps slower.

[@shawnengstrom3906]

This video came at a perfect time. I was fairly set on a 7 PRC, but with some conflicting info coming out I was starting to second guess it. Have been interested in a 6.8 Western, 270 WSM and the ole 7mm mag. Jim, your channel is one of my all time favorites.

[@ottokittel709]

they have just about killed off the great 270 wsm total zero brass available very little ammo. the 270 wsm smokes the 6.8 western. all marketing and manufacture games to sell new super duper rounds, even if you have to lie about the data. the sheep will never know, unless Jim harmer is at work !

[@jtylermcclendon]

If it's any help I built a 7 PRC last year after hunting with 300 win mag for 9 years and I'm very happy with the decision. 7 PRC is a significant improvement in wind drift and stopping power over all the cartridges you listed except 6.8 Western, but ammo availability is probably going to be better for 7 PRC. If you're not shooting past 400 any of these cartridges are fine. If you are shooting past 400 it would be a big benefit to hand load any of them.

[@TheMichaelToddShow]

Get the western!

[@shawnengstrom3906]

@@TheMichaelToddShow I might. Will look into rifles chambered in it and see what’s available besides Win, Brn and Fierce. The .277 and 7mm are my favorite calibers so can’t really go wrong either way.

[@JJ-iu5hl]

@@shawnengstrom3906 Don't let this one video push you away too hard. He showed in that video that the Federal ammo is getting closer to box velocities, and many others are saying they're getting the promised 3000 from them. The only problem he called out in the video is Hornady's current ammo, which uses slower powder due to current availability. It's a temporary issue. Buy Federal or reload yourself until Big H gets more fast powder.

[@Lexidezi225]

My 7mm rem mag meanwhile is shooting 3100 fps 😂. Prc lovers are gonna hate me

[@Melbury-Vidz]

Love your stuff, Jim. You are a joy to watch and always cover the details in a clear, concise manner. All my best, brother.

[@backfire]

Thank you kindly!

[@joshwilson7008]

I’ve always stood by the utility of 6.8 Western! And I’ve suspected the 7prc numbers were inflated, but I’m very glad to see someone prove it. I get why hornady did it, but… man. It’s so dishonest. And they tried to take down a cartridge that is phenomenal, and deserves more factory offerings, which is the 6.8 Western!

[@beavismagnum]

Plus it fits in a short action

[@beavismagnum]

The 7 prc literally has the performance of a modern short action

[@jeffranck6080]

The problem with the 6.8 western is there are few rifles chambered in it. None of the rifles I've seen are of interest to me. I think it is a dandy cartridge but outside of building a custom rifle, I don't see how I can get what I'd like

[@Plumcraziness]

Thank you for delving into this. Great video. This exposes something I have always questioned in regards to advertised BC numbers from manufacturers. More importantly, out of the two (hunting vs. match bullets), it is arguably even more important for the BC numbers for hunting bullets to be as close to 100% accurate as possible. Otherwise, it is EXTREMELY unethical to fudge the BC numbers, given that we are literally shooting at living animals...and not just at a steel target, which has no consequence of injury or suffering if you misplace a shot due to the BC numbers being off. To me, the bigger issue is not the velocity discrepancy, but the discrepancies in BC numbers. In regards to calculating drops and drifts, velocities can be adjusted for using a chronograph, but if companies are misrepresenting BC numbers for hunting bullets, how the hell are we supposed to properly calculate what our true drops and drifts are downrange? If you're shooting a bullet with an advertised BC of .625, but it's actual BC is only .595, then how can we even calculate charts to accurately tell us how to dial and aim when shooting at an animal out in the field? Every inch is utterly crucial in regards to ethical hunting. Also, handloading doesn't fully solve the issue. Handloading helps with velocity discrepancies, but it still does not solve the issue of not being able to correctly calculate our drops and drifts downrange if the BC numbers are not as advertised. This is a real problem. Especially in the context of hunting where you're shooting at living animals. I can't stress that enough. Listing accurate BC numbers is a matter of ethics. If there's any truth to manufacturers being less concerned about listing (or manufacturing) accurate BCs for hunting bullets, then that is moral and ethical negligence IMHO. Hopefully videos like this get the ball rolling in regards to better ethics and transparency from bullet and ammo manufacturers. Again, thank you for the excellent video. Cheers.

[@MountainsMulletsMerica]

Your 7PRC results mirror mine… actual velocity is well below box velocity. Enough that I was actually thinking I had an issue with my factory Hornady ammo…

[@kfinlay70rr]

I was sure my Chronograph was faulty after shooting my 7prc and 6.8western on the same day.... until everyone else starting saying the same numbers

[@OutsidetheEchochamber]

Simply buying federal ammunition in 7 PRC fixes the issue

[@frankmccarthy2624]

Happy I stayed with a 7Mag then

[@bikedeefer]

Same here!

[@elkhuntr2816]

I asked this question on hornady's youtube video on the 7 PRC. Here's the response from hornady: "When the 7mm PRC was first introduced, the velocity specifications were set using several high-performance propellants that were readily available at the time. As most of you are aware, there is a world-wide propellant shortage. As such, we’ve been forced to find alternative propellants. When choosing a substitute powder, we focus on accuracy, consistent ignition, and temperature stability. A new propellant option met our criteria and, more importantly, is available, however it often doesn’t achieve the original velocity specifications. With this reduction in velocity coupled with variation in chambers and barrels, it is possible to see 75-175 fps slower velocity from your rifle, than the velocity printed on the box. This alternative propellant solution does generate the consistency and accuracy we demand. Other substitutes did not meet those requirements; we prioritized accuracy over speed. Hornady has always encouraged shooters to test ammunition from their rifles to obtain accurate velocity data. Due to the powder shortage, everyone in the ammunition manufacturing sector is faced with choosing between loading ammunition slower than originally specified, or simply not loading ammo at all. This temporary powder solution has allowed us to continue to produce and ship ammunition despite the powder availability concerns."

[@OutsidetheEchochamber]

They aren’t interested in finding the truth

[@JJ-iu5hl]

@@OutsidetheEchochamber What do you mean?

[@socktea3]

Could be the truth I found some retumbo and it produced higher numbers in my gun

[@annexpaint]

But the cartridge is still your favorite right? A little more power than 6.5 but less than 300 win. Hand loading appears to be the answer

[@OutsidetheEchochamber]

@@annexpaint luckily there are other factory options too

[@bearmeat898]

GREAT info Jim. Thanks so much for this

[@jordanmoore332]

Hey @backfire. I sell guns part time and have been telling people these same things about over inflated velocites, barrel lengths, the 2 6.5's being the same and how amazing the 6.8 western really is for years. I commend you for being honest and putting this out.

[@kfinlay70rr]

Im glad to see these numbers being exposed. I can say 1st hand After a day with the chronograph I was Extreamly disappointed to find my 24" 7prc, 175 eldx was 160fps SLOWER than the precision hunter box advertised. and my 6.8w 165 ABLR was OVER the 2970 as advertised. also, the 6.8 shoots a 175 sierra the same speed as the 7prc. handloading the 6.8 western within Hodgdon load data, seeing numbers well into the 3000fps range. I'm not a hater or anything, but Hornady over promised and under delivered the 7mm prc.

[@nootnuh]

Thanks for running these tests and sharing their data. Hornady needs a new chronograph! I’ll test my 7PRC Hornady ammo speeds and post my results.

[@iainduncan9885]

I had similar velocities to yours with Precision Hunter out of a Bergara Ridge in 7 PRC. I dialed in a handload with 168gr Barnes LRX that is very accurate but moving around 2860. My Browning 6.8 Western gets very close to box velocities with the Game Changer and ABLR factory ammo. Very tight groups with the ABLR. Both are great shooting rifles for me and both cartridges offer good ballistics. It is just funny how the 6.8 Western pulls ahead with my two rifles despite the hype train on 7 PRC telling us it is the be all-end all. Interesting to hear that mine is not an isolated experience with better performance out of a 6.8 Western.

[@OutsidetheEchochamber]

Until you try Federal ammunition

[@terryobrien308]

Thank you for covering this topic

[@montanamusings]

I've been trying to save the 6.8 Western for awhile now on my channel. I finally got my Winchester XPR and my average velocity was 2966 fps with the 165 grain ABLR's. I love the 6.8 Western. The recoil didn't seem much different than my 6.5 PRC, which is also the Winchester XPR with a 24 inch barrel.

[@NCWoodlandRoamer]

Sorry but the 6.8 is DOA.

[@MontanaWillie44]

@@NCWoodlandRoamerLOL no, it’s not

[@NCWoodlandRoamer]

@@MontanaWillie44 LOL yes, it is.

[@MontanaWillie44]

@@NCWoodlandRoamer no, it really isn’t. Ammo everywhere, rifles everywhere. Only thing you can’t really get is brass for reloading. But you can get the ammo so there’s the brass. Try again.

[@MontanaWillie44]

@@NCWoodlandRoamer just for reference there’s over 1700 rifles on GunBroker alone for the 6.8 and that’s just one site. I live in Ohio and have seen several at Cabela’s, 3 in both Fin Feather Fur Locations in the Cleveland area along with cases, not boxes, cases of ammo for it at those same locations. So again, you are wrong.

[@theLTrain700E]

So glad I took up hand loading in the beginning. I never fret about shortages or inaccurate velocity/BC data. Chrono tells me velocity, I true my velocity and BC in the Strelok app. Life is good because I am able to pump out quality ammo with no second guessing. Backfire, your videos confirmed what I always suspected.

[@xiongher3080]

Thank you 👍

[@00TheHammer]

I just measured the velocity in a 24” CVA Cascade XT in 7 PRC. Hornady Precision Hunter 175 gr. Average volocity= 2821 fps. Extreme spread between the velocities was 140 fps! Federal Terminal Ascent 170 gr. Average velocity= 3045 fps. Extreme spread between readings= 49 fps. Federal shoots better in my gun anyway.

[@2012rdl]

I’d be very interested in seeing a similar comparison between 300 PRC and 300 win mag. If the theory holds true, then I’d say the 300 Win is still king at long range.

[@wyattgraham5711]

One to look at as well is that in the Hornady update, the BC on the 180 eldm in 7mm changed to match that of the 225 eldm in 30 cal. Also, I am not seeing the 7 prc make velocity on published hand loads either. Guys are standing on it to get velocity. I do own a 26” barreled 6.8 Western, I am getting 3060 fps with the 165 ablr load from factory ammo. I do hand load it and get 3000 from the 170 eol.

[@hxl6162]

Congratulations Jim🎉

[@rosswitte]

Reloading Weatherby was onto the 7prc difference very early on.

[@OutsidetheEchochamber]

Funny how neither of them simply bought federal 7 prc ammo and showed this is a Hornady powder shortage problem not a 7 prc problem. Kind of discredited them for me.

[@jacksongage6034]

I don't know if you remember when I was telling you that we made the first 7 prc but we could not get anywhere near the velocity that Hornady says could be achieved they gave us a chamber reamer and brass and when I used their load data it incinerated the primer the 6.8 western is a better cartridge

[@flooded3456]

On the BC of bullets.... Anyone who shoots past 500 yards and enters FPS into a Ballistic app, knows to get the 500-1000 yard dope accuracy, requires BC adjusting in the app. Under 500 yards we adjust the FPS to get the dope to line up as perfectly as possible. I cringe when I read or see hunters trust any info other than grain weight from an ammo box. I have yet to find a box in my cartridge choice where the FPS was accurate, like IBO published speeds of bows, they test with parameters we simply wont in the real world

[@clcmarc]

Jim, I just did something similar w 6.5CM in a Cross vs 6.5CM in a 24” Tikka. For me the Federal Terminal Ascent 130 Gr won in both rifles. I got 2725 in the 18” Cross from 2800 fps on the box and the Tikka got 2820. As for 6.5PRC, for both Hornady 147 Match and 143 ELD-X I am getting box Velo out of my Christensen 24”. Over the total loads tested all others were well under factory box numbers. Good vid

[@jeffsmth46]

Great job, Thanks for everything you do I appreciate your work.

[@TheTonygong]

I thoroughly enjoy my 6.8 Western. Glad you gave it a shout out again! Also, that ADG brass will be huge for the cartridge! I refresh the page every day to see if I can get some 😂

[@jimedick9496]

From what I’ve heard, it’ll be towards the end of this year. I emailed them and they said it’s at the top of their list for new cartridges.

[@TheTonygong]

@@jimedick9496 awesome, thanks!

[@jimedick9496]

@@TheTonygong I’ve been telling as many as possible. Email ADG (Atlas Development Group) and inquire the 6.8 brass. They will email you back. It’s just the more folks that email them, the sooner and potentially larger batch they produce in their first run. Thanks

[@williamhood5062]

The sad thing for me is I purchased a 7PRC based on there hype. Now I wish I had saved my cash and just stuck with my 270.

[@OutsidetheEchochamber]

Good news, Federal factory ammo achieves its published velocities. Buy some and happy days ahead

[@theycallmekevin03]

That's insane because a 7prc is still by far better even if it shot at 2600fps. The 270 is terrible.

[@ericthered7226]

I'm glad I didn't have the money (and still don't 😂) to finish my rifle build. I was sold on the 7 PRC too, but now I've moved on. It was a step backwards from what I originally set out on anyway.

[@mitchjohnson7715]

I have the 6.8 and 7 PRC. When I was chronographing then I saw the 7 was way slower than advertised. It’s a great cartridge. I’m a fan of all new cartridges but the 6.8 Western just checks more boxes for me. I really like the lighter recoil from the 6.8 Western. I’m loading the 170 Berger over Mag Pro and I’m less than max getting 2987 average with a SD of 2.3. I am hearing of many new components coming to the market for the 6.8 Western. Thanks for your videos, they are honest and very informative

[@chrism2042]

Recently had a discussion with a friend about factory velocity. I have owned Glock 10mm pistols since the first Gen 3 G20 was introduced. Use to love shooting the 10mm, then factory loads were the original developed 10mm loads. Back then, Glock was one of the only reliable 10mm pistols that could hold up to the pressures. 10mm pressures destroyed many other manufactured pistols. Now, almost every company is building 10mm pistols, the guns are staying together. Better materials? Downloaded factory ammo? Other than Underwood, a few others and reloading, shooting a 10mm now is pretty much shooting a 40 cal. Years ago, 10mm blew the 45 acp out of the water with performance. Todays factory ammo offerings, I can shoot a 45 acp 185 gr +P and have almost the same velocity as most factory 10mm ammo, unless compared to the few manufactures that still load real 10mm ammo. My friend was all upset about the downloaded ammo since he recently invested several thousand in 10mm pistols due to the hype. He asked why they are doing this. I don't know but for starters, may have something to do with preventing pistols grenading themselves from the original developed 10mm pressures. But, think about it, if they save 0.5 grain of powder on loading 10 million rounds, massive savings on their side, yet the customer is paying crazy prices for what they "think" is the big, bad high pressure 10mm.

[@kerryfalls3292]

Thank you so much, Jim, for cutting through all the misinformation on the 7prc!!!!! Your clear insight into the reality of sales hype is sobering!! Sounds like everyone should let Hornady know that we’re on to them! Or maybe start buying ammo from other manufacturers!!!!!!!

[@onelegwest]

Hmmm... If MacDonald's can get sued for the 1/4 pounder not being a 1/4 pound after cooking... And Jim was a lawyer... I sense a class-action coming lol!!!

[@waynemensen4252]

The 1/4 pounder is that weight before cooking!

[@LostinmyAmazingness]

Wait until I got get a 7prc. I want in on this.

[@jimedick9496]

@@LostinmyAmazingness I like the way you think 😂

[@thomasbixby1305]

ADG Brass makes the 6.8 western relevent again

[@dallasnewson6977]

Only if we can get it in Australia 🇦🇺!!.please!

[@Greyzonecompliant]

Or in Europe. I need lapua or norma support for the brass. But it seems to be a really good cartridge.

[@8MM.PRC.HUNTER]

Three years ago I spent $1300 on a nice new X Bolt in 6.8 Western when it first came out. I bought a couple of bags of Winchester brass (only a couple! - big mistake!) that was available at that time. I thought it would be available down the road so I didn't buy any more. I hunted with it, shot a good 10pt whitetail with it, killed several more animals with it with DRT results on all of them, developed several good handloads for it, and honestly it's probably the best hunting cartridge I've ever owned for deer sized game. But now, when you look at Winchester's ammo website under component rifle brass you will see an SKU number for most every cartridge EXCEPT the 6.8 Western! I don't think Winchester is even offering their brass for it anymore (not that it's the best brass anyway). What I don't understand is why NO ONE else is making anything for it. I believe it is more than popular enough to justify other makers to produce it. It's almost like Winchester doesn't want anyone else to make it. I have heard that ADG will be making brass (although it's not available yet), but something is very fishy about this whole 6.8 Western saga.

[@jimedick9496]

Email ADG and request brass from them. They emailed me back a few weeks ago, and they are looking hard at producing brass for the 6.8 Western. Where I purchase ammo from, wrote me back, and told me ADG is planning on producing 6.8 Western brass by the end of the year to get a feel of the market. If it sells, they’ll make it permanent. There’s a bunch of us who own and love this carriage. Also, for the 270 WSM owners. Write in to ADG as well. They’d like requests and a number count for both cartridges.

[@emmanuelcalderon1982]

I feel like the 6.8 Western has been blacklisted. If I remember correctly Christensen arms and maybe one other company have started making factory guns chambered in 6.8, but we know that Hornady refuses to support it because it competes with the 7 PRC. What makes me suspicious is that when Hornady comes out with a cartridge it feels like everyone has a rifle for it especially Ruger. Ruger has an American rifle for like every caliber and even they didn't touch the 6.8. Something fishy is going on.

[@cdavison9491]

Ruger and hornady work together. 375 ruger, 6.5 creedmoor, the PRC cartridges etc. They market together and are a monopoly of sorts.

[@emmanuelcalderon1982]

@@cdavison9491 makes sense that Ruger and Hornady have that connection. Feels like Hornady has the industry by the balls. Even Federal can't get support for their cartridges. Just looked at the 224 Valkyrie, I think Savage was the only company to come out with a bolt action and they only offered it for a couple of years.

[@leewilkinson6372]

The parent case is 270 wsm, which seems readily available. If you reload, it looks fairly straght forward to cut down, anneal, and reform. Fire formnfor you chamber then neck size only for thr first firing. You may need to bumb the shoulder slightly on the second( depending how much the cartridge stretches....I confess I've never shot this cartridge...)

[@m444ss]

on the 6.5s - i gues sif you want a shorter barrel, you want the PRC b/c the CM in the same length (short) barrel will still be slower key (as I think you pointed out) is to compare not just apples to apples but granny smiths to granny smiths

[@chipsterb4946]

There’s more to this story. I just watched a podcast where they talked up Hornady’s 7mm 160 grain bullet. I load for 7mm-08 and have a 7x57 Mauser rifle coming next week, so I thought “perfect!” The bullet weight is right in the wheelhouse of both cartridges. Hodgdon shows a good variety of 160 bullets for 7mm-08 and a couple for 7x57. However, Hornady doesn’t list data for that bullet in either cartridge (and I have the Hornady reloading app so data gets updated instantly when available). Hmmmm 🧐

[@cjrp0810]

I'm getting 2780 on 6.5cm Prescision Hunter, 24" barrel on custom loads from a small shop. Pretty solid.

[@clrkglnn]

THIS kind of video is what I love about your channel. You are a geek on the numbers and you uncover the truth for us all. Thank you.

[@mainenorthwoodshunter3265]

Maine North Woods Hunter here. The 6.8 Western is a .277 caliber like the 270 and 270 WSM. I expect that to go a little faster than the 7PRC. I think the 7PRC is competing with the 7 Rem Mag, trying to dethrone it. I have seen people comparing those and getting faster speeds with the 7 Rem Mag. Everyone saw the 175 gr. 7PRC advertisement at 3000 fps and that would be better than the Rem Mag BUT the PRC just doesn't do as advertised.

[@Holyspiritrecieved]

your not wrong....its the wind drift and the range it carries after 600m...its just doesnt tumblenearly as bad after a certain range. In the end the PRC is more accurate thats about it at 1000 yds

[@SpudOutdoors]

@@Holyspiritrecievednot true at all. My 7 rem mag 22” factory rifle is running a 175 elite at 2970 with a 8 twist factory barrel. Do you even know the difference between the two on the freebore clearance? Its .001. PRC is .001 and the mag is .002, FClass shooters run .003-.005. 7 mag is deadly accurate and has taken game past 1300 yards. I personally will not go beyond 600. That said if it isn’t broke don’t fix it.

[@portersorensen8814]

@@Holyspiritrecieved From a target perspective i get where you are coming from. From a hunting perspective most people will never see the 600m and beyond. And those serious enough have happily been building custom 7 mags capable of far beyond the 7PRC. The same can be said for the 300 prc

[@WayStedYou]

its not even detrhoning the 7 mag its being equalled by a 280 AI

[@Holyspiritrecieved]

@SpudOutdoors yah ur right. U can spend the money to basically make it the same. I own a 7mm mag.. a 6.5prc..a 309 win msg .you won't see me buying a 7mm prc. Even the normal 6m5 is good enough. I mean the only thing your wrong about is how the bullets and casings work on the low bc longer bullets. Having a prc is a tiny advantage that's all I'm saying

[@bubba7626]

This is why the 28 Nosler is still KING! Plenty case capacity and REAL 3000 ft plus hand loading - even loading the 175 grain Hornandy ELDx... Says my 8 lb Browning 1 in 8 twist Hells Canyon max Range with the recoil Hawg muzzle break.

[@ottokittel709]

50 BMG is the real deal !

[@jaimedlopez]

Amazing work, thank you

[@jeremysaldivar7597]

Great video Jim. I have also found Hornady's box velocities to be inflated. But in Hornady's defense, the bcs seem to be right, standard deviation and es are stellar for factory and the groups are small. I'm willing to sacrifice some speed for that consistency. But wow the optimism on the box is excessive!

[@kcstott]

Most hunter are goobers, they won't test, they take the data off the box and the drops and then wonder why they miss. And if the 6.5 PRC and the 6.5 CM are the same that means the 6.5x47 and the 6.5 XC are also the same as the PRC because that case capacity of the CM, 47, and XC are within a few grains of each other. But we've seen this before. a 30-06 in a 22" barrel, at 300 WM in a 24" barrel, or any magnum in a short barrel giving up all that performance and wasting powder just so you can say you have a magnum. you can't take a .338 Lapua and use it in a 22" barrel and expect 30" barrel performance.

[@kmack747]

The xc and cm are the same just one is Sammi and one is still considered a wilde cat

[@jerryconrad2737]

LOL at "most hunters are goobers!" True this- you should never shoot beyond distance practiced and proven on the range so you know your cartridge performance.

[@craigwhite7209]

With that reasoning the 308 and 300 win mag are the same cartridge too. Great video though!

[@beavismagnum]

@@craigwhite7209kind of. A 24 inch 308 has the same velicity as a 16 inch 300 win.

[@arthurshingler2025]

Above sea level does have an effect.... along with different barrels, etc...... Eventually.... I've gotten to the point that I'm skeptical about everything, and I don't care as much about velocities anymore. Just consistent velocities. (NOT max)

[@geerts016]

Great content. Good on you talking about this

[@user-cl7jw7td5q]

HEY JIM- Good job! Thanks

[@GetMeThere1]

Thank you for this -- although it's depressing. But it does remind us of two good things: 1) The PRICELESS value supplied to the sport by youtubers who are doing honest testing and evaluation of the products in our hobby. 2) The great value provided by personal handloading for testing and practice. A third is a reminder that we don't always need to lust after the "newest thing." We can shoot our old cartridges and old guns, and if we test and evaluate we can KNOW what we can do with them, and knowing, we will likely find that they will provide what we need for most practical uses.

[@steveelder5306]

actually I bought my 7prc because this very guy said it was the eighth wonder of the world a year ago. every video he was crowing about how great it is. I mean I'm going to get some handloads going but components, particularly heavy 7mm bullets and H1000 or RL26 , Retumbo etc are impossible to find. when it comes together it should be an improvement over Hornady factory crap. But I'll be taking anything this Backfire dude says with a grain of salt that's for sure.

[@GetMeThere1]

@@steveelder5306 I hear what you're saying. I think it's easy to see that he bought the figures they were handing out. I don't think you can blame him too much for being over-enthusiastic. There ARE cartridge improvements that can be made: it has been clearly understood over the last 15-20 years or so, about what case shape makes for the consistent burn, etc. I LIKE the ideas behind the "PRCs" (6.5mm, 7mm, and 30 cal). Furthermore, these cartridges are DESIGNED for extra long bullets -- making them ideal for longer ranges. It's too bad they have to lie about their velocity performance, but it's likely still true that they can supply superior accuracy and range compared to old cartridges of that caliber.

[@steveelder5306]

@@GetMeThere1 that's right. I knew I wouldn't be getting the full velocity anyway. the Weatherby's and the like always used the 26" barrels and you really need that for magnum performance. I did really decide on that cartridge as much for the modern beltless design and I'll definitely be in the groove when I get my reloads going. the original 7mm mag goal of Warren Page was 175 gr @3000 fps. Safely.the 7 rem mag wouldn't do it and one hears a lot of hay converted by a horse about what their various superguns are making with their hand loads "with no signs of pressure". the .280 AI comes to mind I have a friend that way overloads his 30-06 with way too much powder for elk hunting. he shoots very little and he gets away with it. they made magnums for a reason. one may not have "any signs of pressure", but run your stuff thru a test barrel and that just might blow your hair back anyway!

[@GetMeThere1]

@@steveelder5306 i agree. Have you seen "The Real Gunsmith" video regarding pressure and handloads? He gives a method of measuring the case just above the belt (or where one would be) as a reliable means of gauging pressure -- which is more sensitive and more consistent than the usual signs. I'm not always 100% a fan of his channel, but he DOES have some good information, and he seems very certain of his technique regarding pressure. I recommend having a look at it. Look up his video "Measuring for Pressure" (youtube isn't fond of links, or I would link to it). The short version is: more than half a thousandth expansion in that area is over-pressure.

[@OutsidetheEchochamber]

Simply buy Federal ammunition for the 7 prc problem solved, did he say that?

[@dskim5848]

My vote is for the 6.8 Western (for elk)from a fellow gober.

[@warriorwarrior6999]

I wonder if the 6.8 western or 7mm PRC is actually any better than good old proven 7mm rem magnum in reality ?

[@Sourdough444]

Exactomundo! Good work.

[@JeRKII]

I had similar conversations a few weeks ago about the 22 ARC and the new 22 creedmore

[@gerry6.8]

Finally Hornady is being called out for their blatant lies ("marketing") with their 7 PRC and 6.5 PRC cartridges. Makes me want to support them even less than I do. They reinvent rounds and many just go along with the hype (260 Rem vs 6.5 Creedmoor is one and their 22 ARC is a less powerful 22 Nosler for example, lots of other examples too) As a fan of the 6.8 Western I really don't like them because they are so insecure that they won't support a competitors round. Meanwhile the adults and Winchester and Browning support their stupid PRC rounds. I'm a Nosler fan but they need to measure their b.c's again to get more accurate numbers. They need to do better.

[@TheMichaelToddShow]

6.8 western deserves more love. I think in time people will start to appreciate how versatile and efficient it is.

[@joshuaskipper7583]

You’re definitely right. I’ve had 3 7prcs and none shot faster than 2820. Two savages and 1 Bergara. Hornady just blows you off when you say anything. Their reply to me was “all rifles are different” so I’m 0-3 with 2 brands

[@peterluttgens3364]

Go get a 6.8 Western & stick it to Hornady

[@clayp520]

Glad to hear the 308 ammo speeds were fairly accurate.

[@aaronlakanen4041]

Love this video and the effort investigating what we take to be facts. I’ve thought the same about the 6.5 Creedmoor and the 6.5 PRC. Barrel length matters! The crazy part about the Western vs. the 7 PRC is that Hornady markets the ever loving goodness out of this. The Western happened to come out at an abysmal time. I’ve long wanted to get a 270 WSM for a magnum. The Western certainly is an upgrade and from it and will quite possibly be the next caliber I add… in addition to the 6.5 Creedmoor as your video has been eye opening and confirmed some hunches. Browning will most likely get a purchase of mine for both calibers. We need to make sure the Western makes it!

[@Dalesarty]

Hornady doesn’t impress me at all. And honestly I had high hopes for the 7PRC but the 6.8 smokes it and so does my 7 Rem mags.😂😂

[@jcarry5214]

I like a lot of their products, but it seems they were a little too eager to attack the 7rem and not proud of the good, moderate, balanced cartridge they made.

[@sapperROSS]

My ruger american go wild shoots under a moa at 200 yards with eldx. Wtf are you wanting from a gun lol

[@HazardousRob]

"Smokes it" lmao ok

[@Dalesarty]

@@HazardousRob it’s a fair bit faster and speed kills. It also increase the distance at which a bullet expands reliably. Re naming and re necking the failed 30 TC really isn’t that impressive. And I’m talking within typical hunting ranges course. They’re just not worth all the hype.

[@HazardousRob]

@@Dalesarty theres a point of diminishing returns. If a semi hit you going 100mph, and the same semi hits you going 120... the result is going to be the same. The same principle applies to bullets. 100fps difference isnt going to matter when the round is hitting the elk/deer/etc at over 2000fps to begin with. Elks not gonna lay there dying thinking.. "man, that felt about 100fps faster" lol

[@user-gl7pf5yv7m]

Thanks for this info!

[@ingvarkristjansson766]

Wow….great video and very informative, eye opening to say the least 👍

[@HollyPribyl-sl6ug]

You are going to piss them off.good for you !coming from a loyal 7 mag owner!,,

[@jcarry5214]

As a SAUM owner I really love the idea of the PRC:It should be a moderate, balanced, fast enough but sub-magnum with factory support. It's a saum/284 win improved. I really don't understand why they felt the need to be deceitful. But also, reading some of the numbers in this comments section they're not even living up to the low end of the concept!

[@henrygilliam8488]

Awesome job 👍🏻 great information, keep it up…

[@MikeHinesPersonal]

Yet another good reason to handload and own a nice chronograph! But if I'm being harsh, I'd say that as long as you work out your drop tables for different Density Altitudes, it doesn't matter who lies about what on the box. A range finder, the DA +/- 500ft, and your drop table is the only truth you need to hit game. (And a good ability to judge and dope wind.)

[@zachcarter9927]

Uncle Hornady isn’t going to be happy about the truth coming out on what they thought was their golden ticket. I’m not sure what’s worse; Hornady being much slower than advertised, or Nosler with the bc debacle.

[@jasonshults368]

Nosler got a dopler radar machine a handful of years ago, and has corrected many of their inflated BC numbers. If you study Litz's book, he goes into that that different barrels produce significantly different BC values using the same bullet. It isn't so straightforward as "Nosler fudged their BC values."

[@WayStedYou]

The B.C information is from a while ago and has been adjusted AFAIK

[@thedirtygot9570]

Nosler lies on their fps also

[@johandewet2588]

You're just confirmed what I've been suspecting all along. I thought the balistics charts Hornady gives for the 7 PRC looks too good to be true. The 6.8 Western is an awesome cartridge that ticks all the right boxes and Hornady just couldn't let Winchester have such a big and crucial win in that cattegory, so they resolved to using dirty tactics to steal the 6.8 Westerns thunder. Shame on Hornady!

[@westonbeck8004]

I have a custom 6.8 western and a custom 7 PRC. Both 26 inch barrels. 6.8 western with the factory Winchester 165s is getting 3060 10 shot groups. For some reason the 175s I only gotten it to pick them up once and it was 2910. My 7 PRC with the federal premium factory 175s I’m getting 3050 in a 10 Shot group. With the federal premium factory 155 terminal ascents I’m getting 3250 in a 5 shot group. Love them both!

[@lumardtgroeneveld7399]

South African hand loader here. I recently bought myself a 7mm Rem Mag and I'm using the 162gr ELD-X from Hornady. The G1 BC value for this bullet is supposed to be 0.630. When I used the Trajectory Validation in Strelok a couple of weeks ago (did it out at 500m) my new BC according Strelok is 0.493! That's 21.75% less than what they say it is.. Make with that what you will but this is quite a big difference! With my 6.5 Creed and 243 Win (also using Hornady ammo), Strelok was always near perfectly accurate with the elevation adjustments. But when I got my 7mm I was finding that I'm always a few clicks low (especially out beyond 350m). After the Trajectory Validation and the new BC, it's pretty dead on now. *Edit* For interest, I did the trajectory validation on the 6.5 Creed as well. For this I'm using the 130gr ELD Match bullet from Hornady. Also at 500m. The stated G1 BC is 0.554. After truing the new BC is 0.479. That's 13.54% less. So it seems to confirm what Jim is saying, with Match bullets they're being more honest.

[@MTMILITIAMAN7.62]

I just want to add that twist rate matters as much as barrel length. There are a lot of shooters out there who don't seem to understand that stability is not binary. It is on a spectrum. There is a lot of math that goes into it, but some external ballistics calculators will give you a Stability Factor calculation if you input the correct data. Imagine a line running lengthwise through the center of mass of your bullet. In an optimally stabilized bullet, that line will go directly through the tip of the projectile, and the tip will be static on the line such that it presents the smallest possible cross section to the air, perpendicular to its vector in flight. It is however possible to be stabilized for good accuracy but marginally for proper flight characteristics. In a marginally stabilized projectile, the tip traces small circles around the line traveling through its center of mass. Even a slight amount of wobble presents more area perpendicular to the projectile's vector in flight, lowering BC, and increasing drag. When a manufacturer like Hornady goes through the work to publish accurate BCs, they also provide a recommended twist rate. This is because twist rate directly affects BC, and without the proper twist rate, you will not achieve optimal stabilization necessary for the published ballistic coefficient. You may get good accuracy with a marginally stabilized projectile. But as you stretch it out, you will notice your drop figures are off. This isn't your external ballistics calculator, or even the bullet manufacturer lying to you. You need to have a fast enough twist rate to achieve optimal stabilization if you want optimal BC. Like barrel length matters to velocity, barrel twist matters to BC.

[@ReloadingWeatherby]

Hornady also lies about twist rate. They claim you need a 1in8 twist to shoot the 180 gr ELD-M in 7mm. Berger says you only need a 1in9 twist to shoot the 195 gr EOL which is actually a much longer bullet than the 180 ELD-M. Sorry I trust Berger a whole lot more than Hornady. My personal tests with twist rate also show that Berger is right.

[@beavismagnum]

You can shoot the 180 in a 9 twist.

[@MTMILITIAMAN7.62]

@ReloadingWeatherby So, in other words, you didn't watch the video and have never consulted Hornady's reference, but rather choose to have strongly held opinions about that which you remain willfully ignorant? As shown in the video, independent testing shows Hornady has the most accurate publicized BCs. It seems kind of foolish to assume they go through the effort to publish accurate BCs, but not to provide the best possible data on how to achieve these BCs. In fact, Hornady does show their work. They have expanded BCs published from their work at Aberdeen Proving Grounds in which they show the modified BCs for their bullets at different Mach numbers and twist rates. With an 8.75 twist, that 180 gr ELD-M has a Mach 2.25 G7 BC of .391. With a 7.5 twist, that same bullet has a Mach 2.25 G7 BC of .411. So when Hornady recommends an 8 twist or faster, it is because they have done the work, showed the work, and have the receipts. If you choose to ignore it, that is your problem. But Hornady goes to great lengths to provide their customers with accurate data. Secondly, have you ever used Berger's stability calculator? If you punch that 195 gr out of a 9 twist, it is marginally stabilized, and they have a warning saying it might shoot good groups, but the BC will be compromised. Then they list alternative bullets they offer that will be more stable in a 9 twist. So even Berger says you're full of shit. Finally, Strelok Pro calculates a JBM Stability Factor for a given bullet and twist rate, at given atmospheric conditions. It also says the 195 gr Berger is marginally stable at 9 twist. In fact, a 1.3 is even on the low end of marginal. Punch it through an 8 twist and you get a pretty much ideal 1.65. So Hornady, Berger, and multiple third party independent sources still suggest both of those bullets are maeginal at 9 twist but ideal at 8 twist. How are you going to claim you believe Berger more when you haven't even actually consulted Berger? They have the resources right on their website. You don't even have to call them. Just select the bullet, input a velocity, modify atmospheric conditions if you want, and press go. If you had taken 15 seconds to make use of the resources they provide, you wouldn't look so silly now...

[@MTMILITIAMAN7.62]

@beavismagnum Nobody says you can't shoot it. You just won't get the publicized BC. Again, they have expanded BC data available showing the reduction of BC in that exact bullet going from a 7.5 twist to a 8.75 twist. Hornady shows their work, and the data is pretty clear.

[@ReloadingWeatherby]

@@MTMILITIAMAN7.62 I bet you didn't know that Hornady themselves just lowered the b.c. of the 180 ELD-M. As for the Berger... go look at the 195 gr EOL spec sheet. Berger says 1in9 twist. Seems they have some conflicting info on their website.

[@rainbow2710]

Great video as always and I appreciate all the work that goes into this. Personally, I am more concerned about the consistency of the ammo rather than the departure from what is stated on the box. Unless, of course, said departure impactss the result, especially while hunting. So far, I was a bit disappointed with factory “match ammo” but maybe that’s the combination of ammo and gun. Interesting analysis and comparison between the 6.8 and 7mm PRC. They are not quite popular here in Europe, yet, but slowly picking up. Cheers.

[@mikemchugh949]

Now this is a great and much needed video. When i started shooting long range i started with the rimfires. When i did the same experiment i found most all brands shot about 100 fps faster. I haven't tried with centerfire calibers but what i have done is weighed each bullet. Match grade hornady was pretty close from bullet to bullet and surprisingly Winchester whitebox ammo may have been closer.

[@matthewgrice6902]

Thanks for the info.

[@elkhuntr2816]

I guess those 7 PRC ballistics were just too good to be true. I shoot a 7mm rem mag and the 7 PRC on paper gains about 200 yards of range energy wise over the 7 mag whether it be 1000 ft-lbs for deer or 1500 ft-lbs for elk. I went to hornady's ballistic calculator and compared the precision hunter 162 eldx in a 7 mag with the 175 eldx in the 7 PRC, and I changed the velocity of the 7 PRC down to 2800. Now the ballistics are almost identical! I wonder how accurate their velocity is on the precision hunter 162 eldx for the 7 mag? If it is accurate, there really isn't much advantage for the 7 PRC over the 7 mag. The numbers from hornady for the 7PRC were showing a significant advantage for the 7 PRC over the 7 mag. How inaccurate are the BC's? Forget the 6.8 western. If this is true, long live the 7 mag! Now if I can just get it to shoot MOA...

[@peterluttgens3364]

Go buy a 6.8 Western- you’ll never look back

[@thehardieway]

Hornady not only lied through their teeth about factory ammo of 175's hitting 3000 fps with a 24 inch barrel, but they are off by 200 fps. I mean seriously.... did they think no one would notice or chronograph the damn thing? How much credibility do you lose with your base when you lie to the extent of 200 fps? BTW, the selling point wasn't reloads, it was FACTORY ammo with a 1-8 twist pushing heavier bullets than a rem mag can supposedly handle (175's) at 3000. I've got a sako S20, 7 rem mag and I can hit 2970 fps with 175 bergers, and pulled a .22 inch group, and haven't even hit pressure signs yet. I have zero doubt i could easily hit 3000 fps with my 175's. The hand loaded rem mag outperforms factory 7 prc loads by 200 fps! Shame on hornady for lying through their teeth. 🤥

[@bobistuff]

hornady marketing at its finest. just like a 6.5 creedmoor is so much better than a 300 win mag. i give them credit they could sell about anything

[@johngregware9073]

Hornady could sell ice to an Eskimo

[@midwestbd7144]

@@bobistuffno one ever said 6.5cm is better than .300wm. The military is adopting it and phasing out .308 so the creed will be popular regardless of marketing

[@eddielombera5862]

More than that, I maxed out at 3110 with 175 ablr .3in groups with a stock browning 26in barrel 1-8 twist, 7prc won’t get that velocity even with a 26in barrel.

[@thehardieway]

​@eddielombera5862 right, but my point is my 24 inch barrel with a 1-9.5 twist will ACTUALLY hit what hornady claimed the prc would be able to do with the same length barrel using factory ammo. I can do it WITHOUT having a 1-8 twist and WITH a 24 inch barrel. The rem mag can and does stabilizes the 175-180 grain pills with a 1-9.5 twist, and does so at 3000 fps. 👆

[@kingwiththeax6880]

As a person that owns a rifle in .260 rem, a chronograph, and is a handloader, it’s not a surprise that Hornady lies about their 6.5mm cartridges. They have been advertising velocities with 28 in bbls since the beginning, to “prove” the superiority of their 6.5CM cartridge, despite the fact that the majority of rifles sold in that cartridge will have 22 or 24 in bbls. That discrepancy in bbl length will significantly impact velocity. It’s no wonder they don’t live up to the hype.

[@gerry6.8]

As a 260 and 6.5x55 owner I knew Hornady was lying .So infuriating to see gobble up their "marketing" when lots of us see through them.

[@JohnLee-lr2op]

I was a bit of a late comer to the 6.5 following. I wanted to be different as a kid, so I shot 7mm Remington Magnum when most of my buddies we shooting .243's, .308's, and the more daring (and less recoil sensitive) were shooting .30-06's, with the occasional 7mm-08 in the mix as well. I stuck with my trusty 7 mag well into my adult years, and finally graduated myself to the .300 Win Mag. I've always been a fan of the belted magnums, and liked the idea of a cartridge that could give me real distance over these Carolina bean fields and power lines. Even though I typically pushed for the upper end of the spectrum of hunting cartridges for my area, I always thought of these cartridges as "traditional" hunting cartridges for my era, and, honestly, I don't like changing things that are working for me. That having been said I was a bit hesitant to join the 6.5 gang, almost scoffing and / or nearly dismissing the 6.5 Creedmoor. Then I began to study the cartridge, became interested, and happened upon a good deal on a used, inexpensive rifle in 6.5 CM. To my surprise, this unassuming, light-recoiling little gem is one heck of a shooter, hanging very close to the ballisticss of some of my custom built rifles. Suffice it to say that I am impressed. I say all of that to say that while I have been impressed with the little 6.5 CM, it is no 6.5 PRC. Maybe with factory loads out of shorter barrels the gap closes, but to say they are the same is a bit misleading, especially on a video discussing misinformation. The one little caveat given being the mention of case capacity, and, friends and neighbors, there is no replacement for displacement. The PRC can be loaded to make a rocket, pushing a 168 gr projectile over 3100 fps. One noteworthy addendum: pushing the bullet that fast did require rebarrelling the rifle my dad was building/developing due to needing to change the rate of spin to obtain bullet stabilization, but once that hurdle was jumped this thing became a fast, flat-shooting tack driver!

[@robertburgard8588]

Pistol ammo is worse I think. Some of those company’s are lying through their teeth. The chronograph has turned into the lie detector test. Keep up the good work!

[@Plumcraziness]

The chrono/polygraph.

[@taylorcleblanc]

You will almost never get more velocity just because you are higher in elevation. The elevation, and a few other factors, lessen the drag on the bullet as it flies and gains you free ballistics at distance but not at the muzzle.

[@Holyspiritrecieved]

100 percent true... after 600m the prc will drop less and honestly the 6.5prc and 7mmprc are like a 20in diff at 1k yds....just buy the 6.5 prc. The western is just expensive only 2 ammo carriers

[@mikemchugh949]

I did this same experiment a few weeks ago on rimfire ammo with surprising results. The CCI’s 22 mag claim 1875, when they consistently hit around 1975

[@Drakehilt]

I might be second guessing my plan to buy a 7 PRC

[@orr89rocz]

Advertised bc doesnt matter in the end, you have to test it yourself and true your ballistics compensations to it for your gun. The box bc is just a starting point.

[@Patrick-857]

This. I shoot airguns, and I never use advertised BC. As a recent interview with a guru from Applied Ballistics seems to indicate, current BC models simply don't work for anything subsonic. My work with airgun projectiles shows that either their advertised BC is way off, or the algorithms in ballistic calculators designed for airguns are not matching the real world, or it's a combination of differences in the projectiles as well as differences in barrel twist, in velocity ect for my particular rifles. BC is effected by velocity and by twist rate. As far as I'm aware, the effective BC actually changes in flight. I think the only way to truly get an accurate calculation of your trajectory is to use real world data with your rifle, in your conditions, with your ammo. Otherwise you'll just be guessing. Ballistic calculators have gotten better for centerfire shooters, bit you still need to input your actual muzzle velocity. I would argue that you need to get a true BC number with your load and your rifle as well, because a tiny difference in actual vs advertised BC, that may have nothing to do with the manufacturer of the projectile, and a lot to do with your particular setup, can throw the calculations way off.

[@Patrick-857]

I actually use a fairly simple piece of software for my purposes, tailored specifically for my particular target discipline. The data I input is my scope height, velocity at the muzzle, my velocity after 10 yards, my zero distance, and how many clicks I dialed to get dead on at my closest distance, and my furthest distance. That's all that's needed. From there the software calculates the whole trajectory, and spits out a tape that I wrap around an oversized elevation turret, so then I can easily dial whatever distance I need during a match. It's proven to be an extremely reliable method, whereas all the other ballistic calculators I've tried simply haven't worked for me.

[@islandtime100]

I would disagree on his 6.5 Creed. Vs 6.5 PRC because he used different barrel lengths than advertised. I agree with needing proper barrel length to get proper performance from the 6.5 PRC and hand loading. Truth is you will still only get 200ish fps in the PRC but makes a great cow elk gun.

[@JimHarmer]

That was the whole point.

[@islandtime100]

@@JimHarmer love your content Jim

[@Miguelneyney]

Appreciate you sharing this information! I thought you were a die hard 7PRC supporter but this shows alot. 6.8 western is a great all cartridge and with the support im sure it can do impressive things!! Great video 👍🏼

[@boshoffbotha7830]

7mm rem mag looks even better now