The Limitations of the Marvel Cinematic Universe PART 1

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[@Laurendamon]

"bring back Sam Rockwell, you cowards" Preeeeeeeeeach

[@tawdryhepburn4686]

L2damon I read that as Raimi...twice.

[@Laurendamon]

@@tawdryhepburn4686 Have Sam Raimi direct Sam Rockwell, done and done.

[@MariaVosa]

Rockwell's Hammer is seriously underrated!

[@aadityabhattacharya]

Excuse me Academy award winner Sam Rockwell

[@tiaaaron3278]

Even Sam Rockwell said he would reprise the role if asked.

[@ColdBloodedProd]

I think you misread the lesson of Spider-Man: Homecoming. Peter realizes after he gets crushed by the rubble and screams for help, that sometimes it’s up to him to save the day and be the hero he needs to be. He doesn’t need to be saved by iron man and more importantly he doesn’t need to BE iron man, he needs to be Spider-Man. That’s why the whole “cmon Peter, c’mon Spider-Man” quote is so powerful. He’s not doing it to impress anyone, he’s doing it for himself and because he needs to change there and now to be the friendly neighborhood Spider-Man he needs to be. Just because he’s named an avenger when the universe is at stake, does not take away from that character moment. While it’s mostly fan service, it’s a reward for Peter that Spider-Man the superhero earned being an avenger. Not Spider-Man the Tony Stark underling.

[@calebbeaudoin8726]

I picked up on that too. Patrick has a fundamental misunderstanding of that scene, and apparently that movie as a whole.

[@theessayist25]

true true...but he gets the advanced suit at the end therefore rendering that moment ...inconsequential

[@ThePonderer]

Yeaaaaah, I think for a lot of people whether or not you appreciate MCU’s take on Spidey hinges on how you read that scene and the themes surrounding it, and I fundamentally disagree with the take on that scene having anything to do with impressing Stark.

[@calebbeaudoin8726]

@@theessayist25 How so? He proved he was worthy of it. He wasn't doing it to get the suit back, that's just a bonus.

[@ColdBloodedProd]

S G I completely disagree. Tony gave him the suit with the note “this belongs to you” as in it was never his to take away because Peter is Spider-Man, not Iron Man Jr. He could’ve said “you earned this” which is what he was trying to do with the Iron Spider suit, but Peter told him that he’d rather be his own hero for a while. All the gadgets are inconsequential to who Peter is as Spider-Man. Plus you don’t see him using any of them in the battle in New York during infinity war.

[@billcasey3492]

I feel like had "Winter Soldier" and "Age of Ultron" not happened, Tony would have been against the Sokovia Accords and Steve would have been for them. Tony Stark in particular was very anti government regulation until he created the monster robot that caused Sokovian devastation... And Winter Soldier gave Captain America every reason to not trust government oversight... I can't imagine those characters being on the sides they were had those films not taken place. It would have been out of character...

[@Beastinvader]

Exactly! They switched places ideologically

[@artist0154]

*THIS*

[@gregoryldismukes]

To me Winter Soldier and Age of Ultron wasn't that good. The gave Scarlett Witch, Quick Sliver and Winter power levels to high. During Winter Soldier I was like Iron Man come save this fool. Dude has one good arm.

[@notJ1m]

@@gregoryldismukes what does the scouter say about his power level?

[@LoganLS0]

@@gregoryldismukes Iron Man was busy being in Iron Man 3 during Winter Soldier.

[@JaySherer]

That is single-handedly the BEST defense of Joss Whedon I’ve ever heard. I’m not a Whedon fan, but can easily acknowledge everything you said about the value he brought to The Avengers. Excellent points. I still enjoy the Russo Brothers and James Gunn films the most, personally. GOTG, Vol. 1 is my favorite.

[@hetalianotaku7103]

It wasn't even Whedon's doing, in terms of what went wrong, I mean. It was Ike what's-his-name who would not leave Feige and Whedon alone and let them do their friggin' jobs. This might not sound related, but this is one of my favorite lines from the "Phantom of the Opera" musical. "And my managers must learn that their place is in an office, not the arts."

[@shaid1111]

Joss Whedon does not need a defense. He took comic book movies from "Those things nerds and kids watch" to what every blockbuster aspires to be. Russo Brothers are basically just producers who get to talk to actors they barely do any actual film making. Every single sequence you think of as a cool sequence in one of their movies is "directed" by second unit directors or VFX Supervisors. The things the Russo's direct is when actors are standing/sitting and talking. And those are another level of poorly directed.

[@Gemnist98]

It didn’t age particularly well, but oh well.

[@JaySherer]

@@Gemnist98 LOL. So true!

[@selty]

@@Gemnist98 hah yeah... really didnt

[@sanyamkhetarpal07]

There is change post phase-1 1) Steve and Tony's relationship is broken by the end of civil war. All the heroes are divided at the start of Infinity war and they lose the battle because of it. 2) Doctor strange learns the lesson of being selfless in his movie and this quality prepares him for the sacrifice he makes at the end of Infinity war. 3) Black widow learns to trust people in Winter Soldier and develop a relationship with banner in AOU. 4) Spiderman in homecoming learns what it takes to be a hero and do the job for himself. Not for Tony stark or to just to be an Avenger. 5)Thor looses everything post Avengers and he's changed in Infinity war. 6) Hulk evolves from a rage monster to someone who can talk,has emotions and for the first time feels fear. 7) Vision and Scarlet witch fall in love. 8) The destruction caused in AOU is the reason why accords happened. 9) Star lord has become much more emotionally mature but he's still unable to control himself in Infinity war. 10) Gamora and Nebula have reconciled with each other. 11) Hawkeye leaves the Avengers and becomes a family man.

[@ThePonderer]

sanyamkhetarpal07 all excellent points

[@THENBASTORYTELLER]

well said!

[@deusexmachina9776]

1) Yet Steve sends him an sms saying they can be friends. Yet in IW it takes two minutes for it to be resolved. After the events team Cap will still be fugitives. It was War Machine who realized things were wrong not Tony. 2) Doctor Strange was technically a phase 1 film - origin story. It does not really count. 3) A relationship which does not make sense and was barely set up. A relationship where Black Window thought herself a monster for not being able to conceive. 4) This point was addressed in the video, Peter becomes an Avenger the following film, undoing all the character developments. Like how in Thor got his eye back and a better weapon. does Ragnarok mean anything? 5) True but that was because the director was given actual freedom, however the film still fell flat with the Asgurd scenes, the MCU formula still had to be followed. 6) Still counts as part of Ragnarok 7) This relationship is worse than Bruce and Black Widows. It was rushed and had zero on screen development. 8) More people would have died if the Avengers had not showed up so the introducing of the accords made no logical sense. Where they supposed to sit by and let Loki take over? 9) The same Star Lord who fucked everything up which resulted in Thanos escaping? Mature my ass. 10) True, but it is not a major change like the accords 11)True

[@Raider768]

@@deusexmachina9776 1) I don't think this plot line is resolved at all in IW. Tony and Steve haven't reunited yet. The rift is still present in IW and will probably finally be resolved in Endgame, so I think the original point stands.

[@jrooke2665]

@@deusexmachina9776 Black Widow says they made her a monster because she killed on their orders without regard for life. Nothing to do with the motherhood aspect, always misinterpreted.

[@calebbeaudoin8726]

Peter didn't stop Vulture to be an Avenger, he stopped him because people were in danger. I took issue with your oversimplification.

[@Daddysports79]

Caleb Beaudoin agreed with the video until the Homecoming too. Peter also turned down Tony’s offer because he realized he didn’t NEED to be an avenger as much as he thought he didn’t. Living his life and staying local we’re he wanted to be. Infinity War was a different set of circumstances. Still a good video, just disagreed here

[@galactic85]

Rewatch the video. Patrick isn't denying that Peter went to stop the vulture because it was the right thing to do. He is breaking down the fight in terms of what it is supposed to mean for Peter's character thematically. He is pointing out that if Peter is supposed to have changed and recognize that he doesn't want to join the avengers after all, then that choice doesn't really have any connection to his final confrontation with vulture. It wasn't informed by the final battle in any way. Yes, saving people is part of the reason why Peter goes after vulture (he is spider-man after all) but he says repeatedly that he is trying to "prove himself" to Tony Stark. Patrick's point is that the film makers make it look like in confronting the vulture Peter will learn to accept being a "friendly neighborhood spider-man" over being an avenger but in the end...that confrontation has no real impact on his decision over whether to accept or reject Tony's offer at the end of the movie.

[@LoganLS0]

Patrick got it all wrong. The whole movie was about how Peter needed to be humble and sit down. At the end he learned that lesson.

[@LoganLS0]

@@galactic85 It didn't affect whether or not he accepted the offer. But did affect him getting the offer.

[@logancox6548]

Yeah, I feel like that was the real point of the movie. At first, I hated that they reduced Spider-Man to a guy whose motivation seems to be all about proving himself to Tony Stark so he can be one of the Avengers. Until it got toward the end, and he finally has the chance to be one, but by that point he realizes that thing Spider-Man always realizes: with great power comes great responsibility; props to that movie for not belaboring the point by leaving this and Uncle Ben's death unsaid. And that responsibility goes beyond just being a junior member of a superhero team. Although Willems is correct that that motivation and Peter's eventual realization in Homecoming are rendered moot in Infinity War.

[@seventhshin0bi864]

Watching this with the context of most of phase 4 is a ride.

[@gsgfnx1]

Wait, spider-man stops the vulture 'cuz he wants to be an avenger? i think you didnt get that Peter wants to do the right thing, im the only one to get it that way?

[@MagusakaJanus]

Yeah, I always read it that way too! Peter getting rejected by Tony Stark and still going after Vulture is him doing the right thing, in spite of the consequences. He realizes he doesn't have to be an Avenger, doesn't need to be an Avenger, to do good.

[@EFlame01]

Even though Peter doesn’t outright say “with great power comes great responsibility” in civil war, that’s his motivations for fighting the vulture without the suit. The stakes may not have been as huge as Spider-Man 2, but for someone who wants to be a friendly neighborhood Spider-Man, it’s not really supposed to.

[@brandonmuse5532]

Agreed!!!

[@abates17]

Yep, exactly. I really don't get Patrick Willems' criticisms here. He ignores the character growth within the movie, and then says, "See? There is no character growth and nothing changes!" At the time that Peter is going to stop the Vulture, he no longer has the suit. Tony has given up on him. He has given up any hopes to be an Avenger. But despite all that, he still does the right thing, because he doesn't want those weapons to get into the hands of criminals who could hurt people. He's not doing it to become an Avenger; he's doing it because it's right.

[@markdarc0448]

gsgfnx1 it seemed like he just wanted to impress tony

[@roguestar8]

I feel like Black Panther is very much about change. A character that starts off as very traditionalist, dedicated to maintaining the status quo, until that status quo is challenged by Killmonger. In the end, T'Challa grows as a character by realizing the truth, that he must open Wakanda to the world for better or worse because 'with great power comes great responsibility'. In Infinity War, we see the consequence of that choice, Wakanda becomes the target of Thanos and his army. I think this could be an interesting prospect to explore in Black Panther 2

[@ThePonderer]

Rogue Star all these movies are far more about change than Pat gives credit for, I feel.

[@FireTrainer92]

@@ThePonderer Yeah they are. They aren't sweeping massive changes but they are changes nonetheless.

[@deusexmachina9776]

@@ThePonderer man you can't take criticism about marvel film. Pat is right.

[@ThePonderer]

Deus Ex Machina I don’t have to “take” criticism when *I’m* not the one being criticized. What you’re asking me to do is *agree* with the criticism, and sorry but I don’t.

[@Letsplaymoron]

While that's a fair reading on it, Black Panther is- at least for the audience- an origin story since they never went into his background too heavily back in Civil War. So when things first kick off is where all the huge changes really show up.

[@stockcaptain1]

IMO Peter Parker lifting the building off of himself was to show that he wanted to fight the Vulture because he thought what the Vulture was doing was wrong. Even before Tony recruited him in Civil War, Peter had a firm belief in right and wrong, (since he was already saving people and being a superhero). The point of that scene was to show that he found his motivation again, since it was diluted by the prospect of being an Avenger, and afterwards he realized that he didn't need to be an Avenger to save lives and be a superhero. (Though that was kinda thrown out in Infinity War, though we'll see what they do with him in Far From Home)

[@quleughy]

The Avengers movies tend to step on the toes of the solo movies a bit. I remember people criticizing the ending of Iron Man 3 being undermined in AoU and the themes within GotG 1 & 2 being undermined in A:IW.

[@ThePonderer]

quleughy I think people who made that IM3 criticism just didn’t pay attention to or misread the end of that movie. Tony doesn’t say he’s retiring, he doesn’t say he’s quitting Iron Man, he says he’s “shaving down distractions” and blows up all the suits that were symbolic of his trauma. Take the film at what it’s actually saying and not what people *infer* about it, and Age of Ultron doesn’t really step on anything.

[@dharvin007]

@@ThePonderer Ironically, the lesson Tony learns in IM3 is exactly what he tells Peter in Homecoming: "If you're nothing without that suit then you shouldn't have it".

[@TheRishijoesanu]

Into the Spidervserse is the best Spiderman movie. Homecoming despite the flaws is superior to Spiderman 2 imo. Some of teh Raimi quirks like screaming women, tacky dialogs and B-movie aesthetics can be jarring.

[@KookiesNolly]

@@ThePonderer "Take the film at what it’s actually saying and not what people infer about it" SAY IT LOUDER FOR THE PEOPLE IN THE BACK

[@theyakkoman]

"Other than Kevin Feige and maybe Robert Downey Jr I don't think theres anyone as essential to the MCU's success than Joss Whedon." Sarah Halley Finn. She should be ranked among them.

[@hntrl8880]

Who's she?

[@theyakkoman]

@@hntrl8880 The casting director. The one able to get the right actors for the right roles. Hiddleston as Loki? Thank Finn. Evans as Cap? Thank Finn. Etc. etc.

[@Vosspatha]

@@theyakkoman you just unironically blew my mind

[@anjetto1]

Absolutely

[@Hhhhhh-sz9ud]

I think "the illusion of change" is fine as long as the change lasts for longer than just a single movie. That's part of the reason Infinity War had the effect it did. Even though we know that the people killed by the snap will come back, we don't know how and at what cost. If you want a cinematic universe to work, the stakes have to last longer than one movie.

[@tatehildyard5332]

Even X-Files, a network procedural got it down. Scully starts off not believing Mulder in any capacity and even though she remains the skeptic for the sake of proper conduct, she's absolutely become more open to existence paranormal activity. They went from sparring work associates to best friends who you constantly go back and forth about wanting to indulge their sexual tension.

[@Wiebejamin]

Okay, as for the Civil War bit with the ending fight, it wasn't a misunderstanding. Tony knows Bucky was kind controlled. He wasn't acting rationally; he was furious that Steve betrayed his trust to protect Bucky and lashing out in anger.

[@williambashford7905]

Wiebejamin but Cap literally says he did not know Bucky did it, he just knew that it was Hydra

[@andrewbays6344]

@siderisn and thats exactly what cap learned by the end of civil war. That he was really just sparing himself. Saying he didint learn anything by the end if the film isint true

[@parkerboy795]

@siderisn I think he knew the possibility, but didn't want to believe it was true.

[@emilyjacobus2121]

Thiiiiiis ^^^ "I don't care. He killed my mom." And because of all that's happened, the Avengers aren't together at the start of Infinity War. Both groups of heroes are incredibly close to stopping Thanos on their own throughout the film. It's clear that together, they could have beaten him. Tony hesitates to call Steve at the beginning, and because of that, Thanos wins. And I have faith that we are going to lose some heroes for good by the end of Endgame. There's going to be permanent repercussions.

[@loudboy317]

@siderisn I take the "yes" part to mean that Cap knew that HYDRA caused the car crash that killed Tony's parents. He truly didn't know that it was Bucky who killed them because the video he saw from Winter Soldier never showed their murders nor did Dr.Zola say that Bucky was their killer. On top of that, Bucky already told Cap about the other Winter Soldiers in Siberia so for all Cap knew, anyone of them could've been the Starks' killer.

[@robertgalt4008]

SpiderMan lifting the rubble is him realizing that he needs to rely on himself, not the Avengers

[@jonnemesis11]

He never wanted to rely on the Avengers, he wanted to be one of them.

[@SuperSilver316]

And In lifting the rubble he realizes he doesn’t need to be an Avenger to be a hero.

[@jonnemesis11]

@@SuperSilver316 When was that ever the problem to begin with? He doesn't want to join the Avengers "to be a hero", he just wants to be taken seriously by them.

[@SuperSilver316]

I agree, what the person above is you arguing that he’s relying on Tony and his suit, which is effectively relying on the Avengers since Tony is their mouthpiece. We are probably arguing for the same thing.

[@eddycxno]

but his main goal, at all times, was for the avengers to take him seriously. he never waivers that. he doesn’t stop vulture bc he can’t turn a blind eye to crime, it’s bc he wants tony to respect him as a hero. that’s why the ending feels off bc he literally worked for all that only to decline at the end. the spongebob movie made fun of that trope, and it still holds up to this day

[@zayng.7553]

In the WInter Soldier Cap does make a choice. Before the 3rd act action sequence when him, Sam, Nat, Fury and Hill are in the underground bunker, Fury wants to keep S.H.I.E.L.D intcat, but Steve says "Hydra, S.H.I.E.L.D, it all goes." This is him coming to a decision based on his morality.

[@shewithwings]

while whedon did direct avengers i think its a mistake to attribute the visuals entirely to him without mentioning cinematographer seamus mcgarvey or editors jeffery ford & lisa lassek, their work is a big part of why avengers worked

[@grouchypuff570]

Very interesting points but I gotta disagree about Captain America: The Winter Soldier. I agree, it would be cool if it was captain America vs shield but I don’t think it would make much of a difference. Captain America did have major character development in that movie. In the beginning, he was America’s/SHIELD’s soldier, even wearing a costume that made him look like a SHIELD agent. At the end though, with the fall of SHIELD, cap no longer blindly trusted the American government. Because of the events of Winter Soldier, he was a super hero and solely a member of a team of his own: The Avengers, rather than a government dog. I don’t believe you’d have Captain America being against the Sokovia Accords without this loss of trust in the American government. And Hydra or Shield, the outcome of Winter Soldier would have been the same or similar.

[@JonathanReichel]

Agreed.

[@ZackBogucki]

Yup. I also disagree with his point that fighting Hydra again somehow negates that fact that Cap is way out of his element. It may be the same old Hydra, but the reveal that they've silently infiltrated SHIELD for decades is a far cry from the blatant Nazi army version of Hydra that Cap knows. And, as you said, that realization is core to his newfound skepticism, which has redefined his characterization and choices in every film since. This whole vid feels like he started with a conclusion and revisited a bunch of the Marvel movies scouring for anything that might support his take, rather than the other way around. His takeaways for the thematic arcs of most everything from Phase 2 forward are strikingly different from my own (and judging by some of these comments, a lot of people have gotten a lot of different messages out of these films).

[@ohifonlyx33]

@@ZackBogucki Yes, it's because government has gotten so "big-brother" and because so much warfare is in a political arena and on an intellectual level that Hydra has been able to hide in SHIELD. It's this world where you can't even tell your friend from your foe. Who even knows what makes them different anymore... Thus Steve looses his trust in those giving the orders and changes from a military man to an independent proponent of freedom. It totally fits his character. He came from being an underdog and wants to protect underdogs. He became a soldier because he doesn't like bullies. He wants to fight bullies. Now he can't be sure who is giving the orders, so he becomes the underdog again, a vigilante of sorts. Because he won't compromise his moral values.

[@elbaecc]

Yes! This is exactly what I started writing until I saw this comment. Well said, Sir. Winter Soldier was and remains one of the best movies to come out of the MCU that not only has great action scenes but also great character arcs, not just for Cap, but also for Black Widow, Fury, and Bucky. The events of Winter Soldier still resonate throughout the MCU and are paying off even now.

[@Trunks252JM]

Well said

[@graymorality]

I feel like you really misunderstood the ending of Civil War and why Tony Stark and Cap fought. It wasn't a misunderstanding. Cap knew what happened to Stark's parents and never told him. Stark felt betrayed by someone he considered a friend

[@contardation]

graymorality Yeah, that and the homecoming bit jumped out at me. Its like he fundamentally didn't understand what the films were going for (even though he is correct that IW kinda undoes Homecoming's message) Definitely a weaker video from Patrick.

[@EvCMickelodeon]

This is his worst video essay

[@amf1435]

Yeah... And just maybe, more importantly, because Tony was trying to kill his friend. It was a misunderstanding. His point stands.

[@UltimateKyuubiFox]

Amf It wasn’t a misunderstanding. It literally wasn’t a misunderstanding. Steve tells Tony that Bucky wasn’t in control when he killed Tony’s parents. The most powerful line in the entire movie is “I don’t care. He killed my mom.” It’s like Patrick didn’t even watch the film-he was looking for a flaw and writing it down on his notepad, missing the movie he was supposed to be watching.

[@P0W3RH0U53]

I agree. The conclusion is that Cap knew and didnt tell him. Tony finds out and they fight over it. I feel very resolved watching it, because its not a happy ending at all, it's about losing control and things being dismantled. The resolution to that sequence of events has yet to occur.

[@MrLaunchpadMcquack]

Ok, I like this video a lot, and I empathize with your overall lack of enthusiasm for MCU movies at this point going forward. But your assessment of what the ending of Homecoming means is really off base. Peter's rejection of the invitation to become an Avenger is, in an of itself, an indicator of growth and change. He spends the movie wanting to bail on his home, his friends, and his school in order to impress Tony and become a major league superhero. What his experience with the Vulture shows him is that the everyman, the "little guy" needs a superhero too (see Vulture's speech to Peter about the upper class taking advantage of the common people, see Tony telling Peter that arms dealers are below the Avengers' pay grade). Like you're saying, it's not a change in status quo, but it is a major change in character motivation. On that note, it does take the punch out of Peter Parker's transition to have him join the Avengers in the next movie to fight the biggest villain in the story up to this point.

[@authoralysmarchand4737]

He started off wanting to be the friendly neighborhood Spider Man, and ended with that same want.

[@MrLaunchpadMcquack]

@@authoralysmarchand4737 How so? Because when we first see Peter in the MCU in Civil War, he's doing his own thing in Queens sure, but after he meets Tony, a major goal of his is to impress Tony and become an Avenger.

[@authoralysmarchand4737]

@@MrLaunchpadMcquack When we first meet Peter, he's content being the neighborhood hero. When we last see him, he's content being the neighborhood hero. The journey he went on ended where he started. That doesn't make this a bad movie. We turned the bottom floor of our house into a legit movie theatre for these movies. I think Tom Holland as Spider Man is the best choice that could have been made, and the way he's written makes him one of the best characters ever. He's incredibly believable as a teenager. But him ending where he started is what is meant by the illusion of change. There's a comfort in that for many people, making this not at all a detraction to many. I'm not sure why acknowledging something like this is seen as a personal attack or as an automatic negative when it's not.

[@MrLaunchpadMcquack]

@@authoralysmarchand4737 Not sure if you meant my reply was a personal attack or others in this comments section. Either way, I agree with you that the movie is still fine all in all, and I meant no disrespect to you. The point I was trying to make was that Willems's statement that there is no real character change for Peter does not make sense when he is going from friendly neighborhood Spider-Man, to wanting to be an Avenger and leave Queens behind, then back to wanting to be friendly neighborhood Spider-Man.Just because he ended up where he started does not mean he did not grow as a character.

[@EmersonFlemingEmRock13]

I think it would have sat better with me if FFH went smaller-scale. Then his appearance as an Avenger in IW would have been more of an exception to the rule rather than a jarring turn-around.

[@sammyauroraloves]

20:06 "None of them have been as good as Spider-Man 2." *coughcough Into The Spider-Verse was coughcough*

[@Nsgs_]

Sam Miller yeaaah no.

[@sammyauroraloves]

@@Nsgs_ You're entitled to be wrong.

[@guyr3618]

Eh. Not quite there.

[@alejoparedes2388]

I agree but "Spiderverse" is not part of the MCU.

[@ZimMan2]

"We've had five movies featuring Peter Parker and none of them have been as good as Sam Raimi's Spider-Man 2" Started work on this video before you saw Spider-Verse didn't ya?

[@JonathanReichel]

He will say it doesn't count since its animated if he ever responses to this point, and he will in part 2 I bet.

[@motor4X4kombat]

He said peter Parker not miles morales. The peter Parker in spiderverse is kinda like the old man Logan version of the character

[@ThePreciseClimber]

@@motor4X4kombat I don't want to argue semantics but Spider-verse did feature a goody-two-shoes Peter Parker as well. Hell, the intro of the movie was ALL about him. His death is one of the main catalysts of character development for everyone else.

[@motor4X4kombat]

@@ThePreciseClimber yeah but thats the idea from what a perfect Spiderman should be, not Peter Parker himself and theres a huge diference between the two. One Is a smartass and a Easy going person, the other one Is a socially akward guy with a naive sence of humor, one fight agaist giants villains to make the diference in His neighborhood making him a badass celebrity, the other one deals with real life issues in a regular way without standing out from the rest. I hate to say it but both Andrew Garfield and Tom Holland are better spidermans than Tobey, and when i say Spidermans i mean spidermans NOT Peter Parker. Garfield Is too good looking and arrogant, Holland barelly gets punish for His lack of responsability making them less relatable compare to Tobey even if he in the suit is kinda stoick and boring (hell he barelly has verbal lenguaje when he talks), they are both charimatic and fun to watch in the suit but they both lack the deapth when they don't have the suit as Peter Parker should be. So the better (yet flesh out) version of Petter Parker in spiderverse Is the middle age crisis guy, not the literally Chris pine wannabe that only dies to give motive to miles to replace him, don't get me wrong its sad but that work because we saw it with miles perspective, because if it wasn't it would be as shallow as supermans "death" in BVS

[@sikid4000]

@@ThePreciseClimber And how much screen time did he have? Spider-verse is one of my favorite films and I am a hardcore Spider-Man fan, but that movie has no place in this conversation.

[@ThePonderer]

I already know Patrick is gonna get SUPER sick of comments saying he misread the point of the scenes in Homecoming and Civil War, but...yeah it’s true.

[@tiaaaron3278]

It's laughable that he sucks up to Nolan so much when Baleman had little to no arc or development. Awful characterization.

[@ThePonderer]

Tia Aaron I wouldn’t say that’s entirely true. Bruce grows a lot in Begins and TDK really pushes his character to its limits. Shame TDKR kinda squandered all that.

[@tiaaaron3278]

@@ThePonderer He only has a proper arc in BB. TDK only tests his morals. But TDKR doesn't ''kinda squander'' it,it throws everything out the window. Just horrid.

[@ballo3595]

@@tiaaaron3278 Not at all. Both TDK and TDKR have character arcs for Bruce. Hell, the most interesting developments happen there; people just tend to overlook them because everything else going on in them. In TDK, Bruce goes from arrogantly thinking he can solve Gotham's problems on his own, to learning he has limitations. In TDKR, Bruce goes from waiting for a reason to save Gotham again, to accepting his retirement and actively trying to live his own life again.

[@tiaaaron3278]

@@ballo3595 Talk about a stretch! There is no arc for Batman in that shitty third film. BB: Bruce Wayne becomes Batman as a way to cope with his grief and also to bring justice when the official administrators can't while also holding onto his morals. Very good start. TDK: He is tested by Joker. Not much in terms of arc but I consider this movie to be Joker's than Batman. And the end where Batman 'makes a sacrifice' is forced and nonsensical and effectively ruins the very reason he became Batman for(being a symbol and all) when he could have easily put the blame on Joker. And don't give me "bUt jOkEr WaSn't TheRe" bullshit. Batman can't lie now? And we get to the pile of shit that is TDKR: So Batman is gone because,forget about his parents, he apparently became a hero for the girl who didn't give a shit about him. And the very morals about which he was tested so hard in the previous movie are thrown out the window as he books up with a murderous bitch about whom he knows shit about. Garbage movie.

[@izzynobre]

You make the best movie video essays out there.

[@softelocke491]

No

[@Joaogab29]

Izzy nobre from Brazil 😮

[@kobayashimaru7763]

You wanna Know what spiderman has learnt in homecoming. He has learnt that being part of a team of fancy superheroes doesn't make you a superhero. You can be a superhero by being yourself.

[@danielduff]

Also, I think Winter Soldier does get points for supplying Agents of SHIELD with 5 seasons of Hydra stories

[@if3rd]

Danny Duff agreed.

[@parkerboy795]

And boy, did they ever expand on it.

[@aprilkoyyen7720]

You seriously misread homecoming. Spider man wanted to be in the Avengers, realised saving the world is more important, then learned he was not ready to be an avenger.

[@jonnemesis11]

"realised saving the world is more important, then learned he was not ready to be an avenger." LOL where are you getting all this stuff from? It definitely not from the movie because they never explain it.

[@abates17]

@@jonnemesis11 It's called "subtext". Not everything has to be explained. This isn't an episode of Blue's Clues where they're telling you where the salt shaker was hiding.

[@jonnemesis11]

@@abates17 It' not subtext because it directly contradicts the "text" of the film. He proved himself by defeating Vulture, he was ready to be an Avengers and if he realized "saving the world is more important" then he would've just joined. The original post is fucking dumb.

[@silverwhistle247]

@@abates17 there is no subtext, because he became the avenger in the next movie and he felt good about it when iron man told him he is now an avenger.

[@abates17]

​@@silverwhistle247 Becoming an Avenger in a later movie doesn't change the subtext or text of what happened in Spider-Man: Homecoming.

[@PatrickBoyda]

15:38 Peter Parker learns from the Vulture that the little guy needs a hero too, and that abandoning the smaller scale in favor of grander protection (like Tony does), it can cast people out like Adrian Toomes, who then turns to crime as a result.

[@michaelb.8943]

The lesson in Civil War is that Captain America sticks to his beliefs no matter how much outside pressure he gets to conform. He goes up against half of the avengers and the government and the world to fight for what he sees as right. He chooses to take responsibility for his and the avengers' actions instead of handing over their right to choose. Really a great underlying moral message, a big part of why that movie is so good.

[@houston-coley]

I want to be mad at you for ragging on my beloved MCU but this video is so well-made and insightful (Charlie Brown skit included) that I just can't bring myself to do it.

[@ThePonderer]

HoustonProductions1 don’t worry, plenty of other comments can do that on your behalf.

[@TheRishijoesanu]

MCU's only getting better with every movie (especially in Phase 3). They seem to actually listen to the small complains that people like Patrik (color grading) and Tony Zhao (score and music) and improves them (color grading Guardians 2 onwards and Black Panther's Oscar-winning score) gradually. I think that's the lesson that other studios need to learn from MCU, they actually try to change for the better despite making the most financially successful movies of this decade.The only other studio that seems to have a similar corporate ethic and process (along with similar critical and commercial success) is Pixar.

[@TheRishijoesanu]

Watch out for The Eternals movie. That's going to be the next big game changer in MCU. They are seemingly going for a Terrence Malikian experiment with that one.

[@huntcd2012]

I feel like he cheated on the Charlie Brown skit with the “tell me what X” is all about scene. After setting it up as him not understanding why he isn’t as hyped up for the MCU anymore, he alters the pay off by making it about Spider-Man.

[@TheRishijoesanu]

@Doctor Manhattan MCU is pretty much the Star Wars of this generation. 'Beloved' is underselling it.

[@floral_stone]

I just want Patrick to do a Peanuts Cinematic Universe now

[@mercurywoodrose]

as long as michael bay doesnt direct. hello, snoopy as an ace fighter pilot escaping a massive explosion.

[@fisheyes9744]

The flaws you are pointing out at Winter Soldier, Homecoming, and Civil War just doesn't seem right, you really over simplified things here dude.

[@neomcdoom]

Zernolph El Gath Yep.

[@5thejurassic]

No he didn't. Marvel films are simple as hell, like fastfood.

[@robertsouza9667]

@@5thejurassic Simple? Smh...

[@elishawilson1429]

@@5thejurassic How?

[@abates17]

@@5thejurassic I can describe more character growth and nuance from these movies than characters in most other movies. That's what happens when you get twenty movies to work with.

[@EdertheJust]

People keeps sleeping on Blade. The original OG Marvel movie.

[@g_oduofthenorth9618]

Wait, Blade was the original original gangster marvel movie? we're just going to forget about the timeless classic that is the 1994 Fantastic 4 movie? :D

[@optimisticwhovian1726]

Cos its crap?

[@EdertheJust]

@@optimisticwhovian1726 How dare you, sir.

[@optimisticwhovian1726]

Ill be honest here, Ive never seen it, cos vampires don't interest me really. @@EdertheJust

[@HurricaneDDragon]

CA2VA Blade has not really influenced current Marvel movie considering they are made by Disney.

[@JustKrin]

About the Sokovia Accords during Infinity War, if it weren't for them the Avengers would have battled together the Children of Thanos, maybe preventing Doctor Strange from getting abducted and being in much better form to defend Vision. Also Rhodey goes against the accords instead of Tony, he says that Ross will not let them use any of his technology to help them which is what makes them go to Wakanda

[@nicholaso2365]

Spiderman wanted to stop The Vulture cause he didn't want unstoppable alien weapons to be sold, not because he'd get something out of it.

[@jonnemesis11]

That literally doesn't change anything he said.

[@notaninstrument7707]

I don’t know where you came up with the Peanuts thing but it’s perfect. It’s like a Nostalgia Critic episode but with actual commentary

[@zebster101]

Really great video Patrick. Worth the run time. Captures beautifully and accurately mine and I'm sure other's qualms with the MCU. Was informative and innovative without being preachy. Your presentation is well, nay, perfectly balanced. Especially grateful you provided suggestions for the issues you revealed. Can't wait for the next one!

[@devindenman526]

I feel like you’re simplifying Steve’s arc in Winter Soldier. He’s having trouble adapting to the new world at the beginning, feeling like he has no place in it as a relic of the past. Robert Redford kind of gives the villain ethos of the film when he’s discussing Nick Fury, saying that he knew that ‘building a better world sometimes means tearing the old world down.’ Also a tacit threat to Steve who represents the old world. By the end, Steve zeroes in on Hydra’s hypocrisy, that they’re not trying to build something new, they’re trying to control and oppress as they always have. He comes around to Redford’s argument, that building a better world will require destroying the old world, so he resolves to let both SHIELD and Hydra go down. There’s some weight when Fury says, “Looks like you’re giving the orders now, Captain.” In TFA, Steve became a hero, in Avengers he became the commander of the Avengers, but he didn’t really become a leader until that moment. Regardless of the fact that SHIELD still “exists” on TV, its absence in the movies has affected the trajectory of the major characters. You don’t get to have the personal responsibility angle that pushes Tony and Steve through phase three if the Avengers are still a SHIELD response team overseen by Nick Fury. Without SHIELD, the Avengers collapsed within a few years. That spun out of Steve’s actions in TWS, just like a ton of other stuff. He made a complicated decision in order to stop bad people, and it resulted in both good and bad outcomes.

[@jonsnor4313]

He has various arcs, first he has to live with himself as relic of the past, as a war veteran but finds that his fight is really complicated, far more complicated than fighting nazis.Hydra is technically not nazis. That the enemy of the people is also within the system and looses trust in the government. Which leads him clashing with tony and running away with bucky because he just cant trust the government anymore to do the right thing. I was bothered why iron man was so irrational but steve absolutely made sense. He just wants to do the right thing and what is wrong in helping your best friend/soulmate to protect him from injustice. He didnt assasinatz anyone himself.

[@comixproviderftw_02]

You’re a good man, Patrick (H) Willems.

[@utubrGaming]

Good O'l Patrick H Willems.

[@aolson1111]

@cyotee doge no u

[@Alphajet101]

Plotholes matter, fuck Patrick.

[@guyr3618]

Patrick matters, fuck plot holes.

[@TheCrippledHalfling]

I think this is why the Guardians of the Galaxy feel so much more emotionally satisfying. Each character throughout 1, 2, and Infinity War get a continuous, changing arc with real changes. Well, everyone but maybe Drax and Mantis, which have been relegated to comedic relief. Quill begins the story as a child in an adults body but by Infinity War, though he's still very immature, has grown into an actual hero and a man worthy of love. Gamorra starts as a cold, distant survivor but by Infinity War her first scene is of her confidently singing and dancing along to Quill's music. Don't even get me started on Yondu.

[@timothygriffith2740]

Yeah Peter in spiderman 2 learned sooooo much. You literally said it yourself the whole movie he's trying to balance spiderman and his normal life and realizes he can't. Wait then what happens at the end of the movie? Oh he realizes he can balance it and gets a girlfriend.... Yeah big change. If you call that change but not all the stuff from Homecoming, civil war, and age of Ultron idk what your standards are for "change"... But you gotta re think them

[@Alec.V.]

Sam Raimi doesn’t get enough credit. He was partly responsible for the biggest cinematic endeavor of all time.

[@JustKrin]

I think there's a lot of master directors (highlight directors since there are also writers, producers, actors and so on) throughout the history of the comic book movies, from the early Donner and Burton, to the boom of Raimi, Singer and Nolan up to this explosion of Favreau, Whedon, Russos, Jenkins and so many more. Also the future looks very promising I like the approach Marvel had that WB eventually also used of bringing a small, indie like director and basically see what they come up with

[@Chenso2099]

Wert's Channel going a bit off-topic, it’s kinda crazy thinking the cinematic universe could’ve started with Sam Raimi’s Spider-Man movies, seeing as Feige was a producer for those and was already discussing the idea with executives. They were actually gonna introduce references to the X-Men, even going as far as to almost include Hugh Jackman’s Wolverine in a cameo. You can even see Thomas Jane (who became the Punisher in that same year) when MJ was running off towards Peter in her wedding gown at the end of Spider-Man 2. While the Doctor Strange name drop was just a tongue-and-cheek reference, it makes you wonder wether there were actual set ups for a cinematic universe.

[@JustKrin]

@@Chenso2099 yeah Feige wanted for a long time to unite the properties into a single universe, he also talked with Fox for a Wolverine and Magneto cameo in The First Avenger Also if I'm not mistaken I believe the Punisher cameo was just an extra that looked like Thomas Jane

[@TheRishijoesanu]

Into the Spidervserse is the best Spiderman movie. Homecoming despite the flaws is superior to Spiderman 2 imo. Some of the Raimi quirks like screaming women, tacky dialogs and B-movie aesthetics can be quite jarring.

[@_gungrave_6802]

Hes responsible for getting comic book movies into the big league earners and for making a good spiderman movie but two shitty sequels.

[@olek-piechaczek]

While I do agree with you on a lot, Patrick, I seem to completely disagree with your assessment of post-Avengers 1 MCU. Yes, in the solo movies leading up to Avengers, each of the characters has to make a radical change to their life in order to become a hero. But I find that the smaller choices they make in their sequel movies and in Phase 2 really pushed the MCU towards something. Take Iron Man 3 for example: Tony is faced with ptsd from the New York Battle. He has constant anxiety and really exposes a side of himself we hadn’t seen before. While some may make the argument that all that anxiety is thrown away in Ultron, I think it’s that anxiety which causes him to create this new AI. When Tony starts to put on his Iron Man suit to fight Steve (right before the creation of Vision), it can clearly be seen that Tony has gradually morphed into a more callous character. In Civil War, Tony uses all this built rage against Cap to encourage the fighting (also the fact he has parenting issues doesn’t help his moral state either). Cap might have given himself up in the comics, but I think him choosing Bucky over Tony shows Tony that he didn’t win. We wouldn’t have gotten the amazing Tony in Infinity War: broken, desperate, and done; if he had felt like he “won” at the end of Civil War. But regardless, keep up the good work!!

[@captcrais101]

Olek Piechaczek Age of Ultron had studio interference. But I still like the movie because of the Hulk vs Hulk Buster Armor and the friendship Hawkeye has with Wanda.

[@bionicprime3952]

I feel like the car scene is the real powerful moment in the film, were he has to choose to either stay with Liz (somethings he been wanting to do through out the whole film) or be the hero by stopping the Vulture, were he starts to realizes what it means to be a hero, heroes have to sacrifice the things they truly want, to save the greater good. Just like what Steve Rogers did at the end of The First Avenger.

[@ThreeProphets]

I think you might have the problem the wrong way around. Because Thor sacrifices his birthright to leadership, Tony sacrifices his death grip on preparation, and Cap (eventually) sacrifices his loyalty. So why does it feel everyone ends up right back where they started? I think it has more to do with editing and structure than writing. If I were to ask you what it sounds like when these movies end, you'd probably think something like a triumphant blast of the brass. With a few notable exceptions, they end unquestionably happy to leave you feeling fulfilled and comfortable. I'm sure that's for a reason. Ambiguity is hard to market, after all. But after the 13th triumphant blast of brass in a year, this can get a little grating, which makes it easy to overlook the real themes and lessons that distinguish each film and lump then together into one muddy, happy mess because they try so hard to feel the same, they lose their identity. I think you hit the nail on the head much more than you realized with the doctor skit. Movie studios can be afraid of something. They're afraid of uniqueness, of appealing more directly to one part of their audience than another, because the investor-driven economy that allows them to exist demands they earn more each year than the last, and the only way for movies to do that is to appeal to as many people as possible. So they'll keep using the same jokes, the same explosion effects, and the same happy endings year after year. It's been amazing seeing the pop culture works take a mass interest in comic properties, but the more popular that gets, the more it will have to succumb to the capitalism machine that churns out identical, safe products

[@FullFatVideos]

"Its become a common refrain that the Russos Brothers fixed what he messed up" ...who's been saying that?! I think this has given me cause to reexamine how I've spoken about Whedon in the past, because I like the Avengers a great deal and I agree with most of your points, although I don't think it has aged very well and the campier tone wouldn't have worked going forward with Civil War and Infinity War in my opinion. There's no denying without his work the MCU would not be what is it today. Oh, and I have a Spider-Man 2 essay out next week! I was biting my nails the whole time hoping you didn't cover the same aspects lol. We might not agree on the Russos' movies but I love your channel and the work you put out. Excited for part 2!

[@jobshadow]

haha, I was actually thinking about you guys when he said that.

[@samsamsam4790]

ultron sucked because of whedon

[@zachyboi7293]

@@samsamsam4790 same with what he did on justice league. The new age of the mcu has progressed too much for him to handle ; and his movies, although they were fun the first couple times, don't offer anything you can't find in a cheesy CW superhero show.

[@ThePonderer]

What Kieron said.

[@thebatmanbadass30000]

Kieron Campion thanos alone was the most compelling. He had the strongest will, baby! Lol yeah the dream sequences and farm stuff was fun. But the Russo’s brought a villain with some meat to him someone I legit thought hey maaaaybe he has a point and that is now crowned the best villain and he won idk how in the world you’re not blown away by that and age of ultron was my favorite avenger movie before infinity war came alone it’s just an overall better movie and idk how with all those characters but they somehow managed it

[@TheSinDeath]

Really well done, Patrick! You explained so many things I've been silently thinking so well, especially the stuff you said about Civil War. I do have one problem with something you mentioned. You said it didn't make sense that Peter Parker rejected Tony Stark's offer to become an Avenger at the end of Spiderman: Homecoming and then cited the scene where he lifts a building off himself, claiming Spiderman did that because he wanted to become an Avenger. I think this is dead wrong. I don't think that moment happened because he wanted to become an Avenger; I think that moment happened because Spiderman wanted to do the right thing. In the very same scene, Peter remembers the moment when Iron Man said "If you're nothing without this suit, then you shouldn't have it." That was what pushed Peter to truly become Spiderman. He didn't need some fancy suit made by a billionare to be a hero; he needed to what was right to be a hero. In other words, he didn't need to be an Avenger to be a hero; he just needs to do the right thing to be a hero. Other than that, I thought this was really well made and I look forward to your next video on this topic.

[@tiaaaron3278]

What he said about Civil War was pure nonsense. Airport battle wasn't meant to be a bloodshed. The real seriousness was for when Tony finds out the truth. His other 'points' about Civil War didn't make sense either.

[@williamapodaca8614]

The grenade scene also (secretly) characterizes Carter too, she's further than Steve from the grenade and covers the gap at the same speed as he does, just barely being slower than he is to jump on the grenade.

[@found_working]

I thoroughly enjoyed this. I will be checking out the podcast and supporting you hence forth. Thank you for your hard work.

[@FireTrainer92]

I think someone needs to re-watch Homecoming and Civil War again. Steve didn't really get off comfortably at all. He actually lost a lot. He still lost Bucky. He lost the Avengers and his friendship to Tony. He can't go home anymore because he's a criminal and can't even hero the same exact way anymore until there's a threat like Thanos. He even lost Peggy. He lost everything in Civil War and the division between Cap and Tony led to what we see in Infinity War. All that to protect his friend lol.

[@jonnemesis11]

What? He didn't lose Bucky, he just distanced himself from him for a while. He lost the Avengers? They're only together in Avengers movies, that's Patrick's point, things never really change because everyone continues in their solo movies and guess what? He still fought with most of the Avengers in IW anyway. He had lost Peggy since the end of TFA.

[@ThePonderer]

unknown unknown Steve spent at LEAST two years living with the other Avengers between movies. Who do you think was housing him after Shield fell and he was looking for a place to live (which they come out and mention in Age of Ultron)?

[@jonnemesis11]

@@ThePonderer Two years that were skipped, once again IT'S JUST THE ILLUSION OF CHANGE.

[@themadtitan7603]

Thank you

[@feanor411]

@@3mbthelabel Language!

[@byrond2184]

Nice, Peanuts reference. Your video essays are always on point!!!

[@Batman25JM]

Others have said it, but I really think you missed the points in many of the MCU movies (particularly Homecoming, The Winter Soldier, and Civil War). There has been a ton of growth and change in the MCU movies. Characters have arcs within each movie but the larger narrative also has them growing and changing. There are consequences to these movies. For example Age of Ultron leads Tony down the path of regret that causes him to act the way he does in Civil War. Sokovia's destruction had a ton of consequences in Civil War. And that's just one small example. You yourself mentioned how comics are built on longform serialized storytelling. That's what the MCU movies are modeled after. Look at them more like a TV show that has 2-3 episodes a year (and where each episode may focus on slightly different characters). I know people complain about this because that is not how movies are normally designed to function but that is what Marvel is doing with the MCU. It's not necessarily fair to complain that they aren't like other movies. The fact of the matter is that they are not made to be like other movies. So while Captain America DOES have arcs in each movie he appears in, the real thing to look at is his arc over the course of all movies. You wouldn't complain that he didn't have an arc in a single issue of a comic when that comic is just one chapter in a story. If you watch The First Avenger and then watch Infinity War you can clearly see that Cap is not the same man he was. He has grown and changed though all of these movies. I loved the Raimi Spider-Man films when I was younger, and to an extent they hold a special place in my hard and I don't hate them, but they are far from perfect. Even Spider-Man 2 has its issues. I don't think they hold up quite as well as some say. One thing I do agree with is your thoughts on the grenade scene in Captain America: The First Avenger. That scene is phenomenal.

[@coreylucas5346]

Perfect! This is great. Another amazing self reflective video.

[@kayh9477]

it’s all about the abcu (air bud cinematic universe) now

[@Lucas-no7gp]

I'm personally excited for the DUCU (dark universe cinematic universe)

[@henryglennon3864]

The ABCU is for babies and fan boys. The only canine-based cinematic universe I can take seriously is WB's dark and gritty Beethoven Cinematic Universe.

[@amberwingtundrawing776]

Oh my God I was talking about this yesterday!

[@Danocaster214]

Bruh. Peter Parker's struggle in Homecoming was about him becoming Spiderman and not a boy just pretending. Turning down Tony at the end was Peter recognizing that, on some level, he's still a kid and has to finish that stage of his life. Him becoming an Avenger in Infinity War was more about the gravity of the threat Thanos represented than character growth. I think you're not seeing the whole of the picture they're painting. I'm not saying these characters are the epitome of depth, but it's all there.

[@HurricaneDDragon]

Danocaster Wow. The word “bruh” and the word “epitome” in the same comment.

[@chrisjames5484]

ive never seen a "critic" miss such an obvious character growth as this. Not to mention the growth and changes a lot of characters faced in infinity war. this guy sucks.

[@itsJoNada]

This is exactly what I thought almost word for word and I had to make sure somebody else pointed this out. Peter knows that if he walked out there at the end of Homecoming and debuted to the world as an Avenger his life wouldn't ever be the same, he'd become a celebrity almost on Iron Man's level and wouldn't be able to "look out for the little guy" like he said in his debut in Civil War. They mentioned in Homecoming how the Avengers don't have time to deal with relatively small-time thugs like Vulture, they're not worth the time or effort in their eyes for good reason, so Spider-Man, as he's always been in the comics, is gonna be the one to stay on that street level and take care of the little guys.

[@vivakanjiro]

I'm the kind of person who doesn't have any special interest in Marvel, but it's really nice to hear from Patrick why so many people, Marvel fans like him, like these characters, their universe, etc. I respect that. I used to feel something similar for Harry Potter when it first came out on theaters; it was absolute madness and I loved every single bit of that. I'm still not watching all the (old and new) Marvel movies and I will continue letting others enjoy these movies on their own. Let's all be happy and don't harrass others just because they don't like the same movies as we do. Let's all be different and have our own opinions and likes.

[@mchikos]

This is a weird critique because it relies on showing examples of change and then saying that there’s still a status quo. Like, you could take Tony Stark’s shift from an alcoholic playboy to a neurotic and paranoid genius with PTSD then say “but he’s still Iron Man” to say there’s a status quo, but that just feels like... zuh? What is the point of underplaying his changed characterization throughout films?

[@zackarysmith3328]

You’re like the Vsauce of movies

[@ElMoShApPiNeSs]

Explain to me how you think this makes any sort of sense.

[@jerner17]

BigFatCock he looks and sounds like Michael from vsauce

[@ElMoShApPiNeSs]

@@jerner17 White American with a beard. What a unique set of features.

[@trevorfraley1744]

@@ElMoShApPiNeSs he legit audiby sounds like him though.

[@jerner17]

BigFatCock if I grew a beard I would be a white guy who doesn't look or sound like Michael from vsauce

[@Diego-pf7yx]

So the fact that Steve has to fight his best friend in TWS is not a hard choice? I think you missed that.

[@paulgaston]

Thank you

[@benvaga]

Can I just say thanks for that. It's like he drove through the MCU forest and missed every tree.

[@galactic85]

It's a dramatic conflict but it's not a major moral conflict that radically forces Cap to question his personal values and whether they have a place in the world. Its hard for him to fight a former friend who has been brainwashed but it's not like doing so forces him to fundamentally question who he is. He isn't going to not fight Bucky when there are millions of lives at stake. However his relationship with Bucky DOES dramatically force him to question his moral code and values in "Civil War."

[@Juan_Sanchez-Vililobos_Ramirez]

I think this guy missed a lot of shit.

[@fafofafin]

No, since he can't avoid it. It's the only option available.

[@ricardonichols6109]

To summarize, growth and consequences for the characters are vital for good storytelling.

[@filiporvik2782]

The problem ain't that he has the attack Hydra again. It's him realizing that his country and government (the one thing he always used to trust) has gone corrupt and he has to maybe kill his best friend to stop them.

[@MyssBlewm]

Toxic is definitely my favorite Britney Spears song (2nd favorite music video). ♡

[@kennethfegley7552]

MyssBlewm lucky

[@Nerdcoresteve1]

Toxic is rad

[@Boondobble]

Dude....okay, it's been 11 years with no end in sight and I feel like people still don't understand that this is a cinematic universe. There is nothing to be gained from trying to put them into all previously understood notions of single film story analysis. You have to look at it as a whole or you fail to see the forest through the trees. The consequences that are absent for Tony in AOU happen in civil war, and civil wars consequences come around in infinity war. As a matter of fact, multiple story events culminate in Infinity war. I could go on all day....but who gives a shit.

[@THENBASTORYTELLER]

word!

[@Reggie1408]

"I could go on all day....but who gives a shit." Noone really.

[@jalenjohnson1662]

+fawfulator I couldn't have said it better myself. I remember being surprised at Age of Ultron for not even attempting to explain why Tony is back as Iron Man. There's a lot of stuff like that in this series.

[@jalenjohnson1662]

Fawfulator You're right. If that was his goal all along why did he send the Chitauri in the first Avengers film? Also, why would he give Loki an Infinity Stone in the form of the staff?

[@Boondobble]

@Fawfulator what I am trying to say is that these are comic books come to life. If you hold them to the standards of films, you will always be disappointed. If you hold them to the standards of comics...disappointed. Something is being born in front of us.

[@6stringstorulethemall967]

Winter soldier is about his relationship with Bucky though. And he had to fight Bucky in order to beat hydra. His hard decision was facing Bucky

[@SorFlavius1]

Here's what I would say. I enjoy your videos, they are great. And, as I'm seeing them, I often realize that I agree with you. This time however, I'm with you 50% of the way. And that is what I love on the web. You can see really thoughtful videos about some things that you love (or hate) and learn a thing or two. Thank you for your videos, you're great, the team is great, your folks are awesome, and keep up with the good work. Cheers

[@Infernal460]

Spiderman homecoming was Peter realising that he wasn't ready for the responsibility of being an adult fully fledged avenger. He's not grown up and he realised that he shouldn't run. But walk to being an Avenger.

[@TheRockerX]

When you started talking about the "Illusion of Change" you reminded me how the MCU actually made me stop reading mainstream (DC and Marvel) comics because the illusion started to become too obvious even in the comics. The status quo will always reset. PS. If anyone else is feeling burnt out on the traditional mainstream (DC/Marvel) comics like I was, you should check out Image Comics. Every single title there is fresh and innovative, and the stories feel like they actually matter because every title is creator-owned and driven....No other writer is ever going to pick up that title or character once the story's done. You know that a new creative team isn't just going to backtrack on all the character development/story progression that the previous creative team did just so they "can make their mark" on a character.

[@TheRishijoesanu]

MCU had major repercussions on the comic book industry

[@joserobertosolismerlin5527]

Check the elseworlds and black labels, and events

[@akil1000]

This man knows whats up, the level of quality and diversity in Image Comics is astounding compared to the big two. The fact that Invincible could develop it's characters so much in under 20 years compared to Spiderman, Batman, Superman and so on which are 40+ year properties really does give the impression that both Marvel and DC are holding these characters back and are more interested in Status Quo than telling good stories.

[@befilmt]

One thing about Civil War: It is more than a misunderstanding. Tony KNOWS that it wasn't Bucky, but "he doesn't care". He is out fore revenge. And it is Cap's mistake, since he neglected to tell Tony about the assassination of his parents through the Winter Soldier, giving him the chance to work through that. It is Captain America's pride and messiah complex that leads to the clash between the two Avengers.

[@baddragonite]

I think what wouldve made something interestimg from Age of Ultron is if Scarlet Witch held a hidden anger against Tony because his weapons killed her parents AND her brother. You could even tie it into some drama with her relationship with Vision/Jarvis since he is part tony. It would have served as both a consequence for his hubris and great drama

[@samkaranja5709]

I don't really see a problem with Cap not changing. He's a paragon, marvel's superman. He isn't the one going through a character arc, he's a constant. The world and characters around him are the ones who change and go through that arc. Also Tony has seen the most real change out of anyone throughout this entire universe.

[@JamesWVanFleet]

I thought his point was that while Cap remains upright, it's less of a challenge him to fight Nazis in his second film if he already fought them as a superhero chrysalis in his first film. The moral equation is easy to solve. His character "arc" in the second film, provided Shield grew corrupt on its own, would therefore be his change from a man allied to the American military to a man utterly opposed to them. His "paragon" status doesn't change, but his loyalties and his understanding of the world does, and learning the democracy he once "died" to save is now going in the same direction of its former enemies would no doubt break his heart.

[@tximinoman]

But the thing about Cap is that HE DOES CHANGE. He goes from guy who just wants to do the rigth thing and trusts his country are the good guys to a guy who finds out his country let the Nazis take over right under their noses because they were just too scared and choose to replace "freedom" for "control". This makes him change. He doesn't stop being the good guy, sure, but he stops believing in his (or any) goverment. And then in Civil War he only confirms all this. By the time Infinity War starts he's a defeated veteran. Someone who has been casted away by the powers in charge for doing the right thing, and this is shown, not only by how his character looks (the beard, the fact that he has covered up the colors in his uniform) but on how he acts (he doesn't give a fuck about anyone anymore, that's why he tells Ross "I'm not looking for forgiveness and I'm way past asking permission")

[@tiaaaron3278]

Cap was a patriotic,unquestioning believer. But throughout the movies,he slowly becomes more and more disenchanted and starts thinking for himself.

[@jonsnor4313]

He was always about doing whats right, consequenced be damned. He just had to adapt and bucky is his weakness and his soulmate.

[@mariapazgonzalezlesme]

MARVEL-ous Patrick, the film scholar that we don't need, but the one we deserve.

[@shaid1111]

He isn't a reviewer. Film scholar is probably more applicable.

[@gustavomartins7614]

We don't need and don't want

[@mariapazgonzalezlesme]

@@gustavomartins7614 So a hater?

[@beardedtinman8491]

I’d say he’s the one we need, but the one we don’t deserve.

[@indigodarkwolf]

He's certainly the one I need, and far better than the one I deserve.

[@dannybenhur6123]

SpiderMan 2 is perfect sequel...and the message of "Let go your dreams" is very unique, never heard anywhere else.

[@peterkovic2241]

Hey man, just wanna say I love your channel and I can’t wait to watch more of your vids!

[@danielheflick1529]

I get a lot of the points you make about characters not changing, but I also think that you drastically undersold Peter's arc in Spider-Man: Homecoming. His first contact with the Avengers was in Civil War, where he was fighting against childhood heroes like Captain America and basically a god when Ant-Man turns giant. He wants that again. He wants to be fighting at that level alongside Iron Man again. And he finally thinks he has a chance to do that when he comes up against the Vulture... only to learn that he's actually a pretty normal dude with normal problems who challenges Peter's perspective on all those big Avengers level fights by telling Peter that the only reason he got into crime in the first place is because he was screwed over by people like that. So yes, at the end of the movie, he's trying to prevent Vulture from stealing Tony's stuff, but he's also trying to save Vulture from himself, culminating in him risking his life to save a criminal supervillain that KNOWS HIS IDENTITY because he understands the circumstances that have led him to this point. And he realizes that THAT'S the kind of hero he wants to be. The one who sticks up for the little guy, not the one fighting gods and monsters, hence why he rejects the offer to join the Avengers at the end of the movie. I think that's quite a bit more growth and change than you're giving the film credit for. Even in Infinity War, he still ties his motive for rejoining the fight for those world stakes battles back to his on-the-ground persona. "You can't be a friendly neighborhood Spider-Man if there's no neighborhood."

[@danielheflick1529]

@Cyberdemon Mike, an opinion that has nothing to do with what I said. The thematic intent of the film is pretty clear. Vulture basically says it straight into the camera in that speech he gives to Peter. If you don't like the movie you don't like it, that's your business, and I'm not going to try to convince you otherwise. I was merely pointing out that Patrick was overly simplifying Peter's arc. Regardless of how you feel about the film, there's a lot more to it than what this video would lead the uninitiated to believe.

[@danielheflick1529]

@Cyberdemon Mike, I mean, I guess you could just say that and not bother to support it with anything from the movie while completely ignoring everything I brought up that backs up my point. Because, you know, that's how reasonable critical analysis of movies works. One side evidences their critique, the other just says, "Nuh-uh."

[@LibertyLocalizer]

Hey, I think The Incredible Hulk was pretty darn good.

[@travisspazz1624]

I've never understood the hate!!

[@akil1000]

Me too I loved the final fight scene between Hulk and Abomination as well as Edward Norton's Bruce Banner . Plus Menacing Hulk is a lot more interesting than Family Friendly Hulk in my opinion.

[@iliveinsideyourhouse1367]

I agreed. It was a very fun movie. I enjoyed it more than captain america winter soldier.

[@zingzaber6989]

very good film

[@dcmarvelcomicfans9458]

The best Hulk film

[@BartAllen]

*Why does everyone always forget about Blade's contributions?*

[@optimisticwhovian1726]

Because Blade isn't really a superhero, he has no cape and those films don't do much to further anything they came and went.

[@benvaga]

RIGHT?

[@chartabona]

He wears an open black leather trench-coat, basically a cape with sleeves.

[@optimisticwhovian1726]

He's not a superhero, he's not part of any universe he's a one off separate character who had his own universe and once the third film came out that was it. @@chartabona

[@chartabona]

Blade is a Marvel superhero. He has teamed up with Spider-Man in the comics and the Spider-Man cartoon. Blade 1 came out in 1998, before the X-men and Spider-man movies. As for why it disappeared, Blade:Trinity underperformed and soon after Wesley Snipes got into a lot of legal trouble for tax evasion and went to prison for a few years. Marvel regained the rights to Blade in 2012, but they're kinda in the middle of something with the MCU at the moment.

[@McHaven07]

Thor didn't grow from Ragnarok and into Infinity War? You're painting with too broad a brush, ma dude.

[@captcrais101]

McHaven07 He did grow. WTF! He reconciled with his brother in Ragnorak. He was learning to deal with loss in Infinity war. Remember his talk with Rocket? It was all about the loss of Frigga, Oden, Hemidall, and Loki. Did you forget that? Sure he did not mention that the Warriors Three being killed too.

[@marsf6080]

months late but it can be argued that basically everything changed for Thor WAS reversed. "You're the god of thunder not of hammers", goes to make a hammer. Lost his eye, is given a new one. Was the king of asgard and saved his people through a lot of sacrifice, Thanos undoes all that immediately. Thor's fun in Infinity War but it basically made Ragnarok useless

[@captcrais101]

Papadripopoulos He got a hammer because Thanos is a more powerful villain than Hella is. He got his eye replaced,for the same reason.

[@marsf6080]

@@captcrais101 That's just coming up with excuses to bring him back closer to status quo, though. There's really nothing narratively saying he couldn't have just gone Palpatine on Thanos shooting lightning from his hands, or that he needed the two eyes. Characters without a hammer or with other such handicaps face Thanos anyway. It's exactly what the video's talking about, the illusion of something changing but then always going back to status quo. "Thor has changed, he no longer needs hammer, he lost an eye as a symbol of all he lost and to look closer to his father, etc etc- nevermind, back to the Thor we know." Same way how Endgame gives us fat depressed Thor and that's not gonna stick either- already doesn't in Endgame itself.

[@LoganLS0]

I disagree. You are picking and choosing. Thor: Ragnarok, both Guardians films, and Black Panther all have real consequences and change. Most of the best Marvel movies are from Phase 2&3. Guardians Vol. 2 is even better than Raimi's movies.

[@jonnemesis11]

Oh sure Ragnarok destroys Asgard and kills Odin but IT DOESN'T MATTER! Everything is treated as a joke, things don't change, nothing is affected except for superficial aspects of the plot.

[@LoganLS0]

@@jonnemesis11 Yeah your right. That's why the opening scene of Infinity War we're Thanos is butchering a ship full of refugees isn't tough to watch and why when Thor recounts his losses to Rocket it has no emotional resonance.

[@jonnemesis11]

@@LoganLS0 You're talking about IW not Ragnarok, thanks for proving my point.

[@LoganLS0]

@@jonnemesis11 My point was it was impactful lasting change that mattered in the next movie.

[@jonnemesis11]

@@LoganLS0 Like I said, superficial changes in the plot that aren't even gonna stick anyway. Asgard and the Asgardians will be back after Endgame and everything will continue to be the same.

[@MrBazBake]

Small aside: the Accords only stop superheroes from acting outside their own country. The US signed on in order to stop the world from accusing them of having human WMDs invading them. The only time the Accords are violated in Infinity War is maybe Scotland, but that's technically because Vision was specifically ambushed.

[@zingzaber6989]

When was that specified? I thought the Accords were to control what enhanced individuals did in general.

[@Ren_Davis0531]

While I do think you bring up some good points, I think you do miss a lot of the character development that tracks throughout the movies. The MCU, generally, does a good job of adding depth to the characterizations that makes the characters feel well-defined. As the films progress, we get more insight into those characters, while at the same time we see them get significant development. With characters like Steve and Tony, for example, they end up making the complete opposite stance in Civil War than you would have originally thought, yet it still feels true to the core of the character. That is because the films in between their origins and Civil War added in more depth and provided opportunities for change within the confines of their core characteristics. Also, while I agree that Spider-Man 2 is thematically structured in a better way than the MCU is generally, I do think that film isn’t as different from the “illusion of change” problem as you claim. It’s nice and feels good, but on a character level, Peter doesn’t really change, and the big moment of change in his life comes from another character making a big decision for him. If you really want to simplify it like you do with the MCU movies, then the only thing Peter learns is that it’s good to be a hero. That’s it. His life is the exact same as it was before. Not exactly the deep change that you’re talking about for one of the most iconic superheroes to learn that being a hero is a good thing.

[@schwegburt3002]

Great video essay as always Patrick. Minor issues with your arguments though. Homecoming: It wasn't about a promotion. Stark himself stated: "If you're nothing without the suit, you don't deserve it." The thesis of Homecoming is Peter going from a kid with super powers who wants to be a hero to an actual hero. Peter's rubble lift is the culmination of finding the determination and grit it takes to really be hero. A kid becomes a true hero regardless of having a suit or being an Avenger. Civil War: Stark literally says he knows Bucky was brainwashed but "I don't care, he killed my mom!" The issue being that regardless of facts or logic, the raw emotional scars and anger consume you. Civil War was literally all about that. Black Panther: Lost his dad. Captain: Flashbacks all involve his parent's death and Bucky as a surrogate brother. Zemo: The instigator himself started this shit cause he lost his family in Sakovia. Civil War's 4 major players: T'challa Captain, Stark and Zemo are all reacting to losing family. And Captain is in the right because his was to protect, not to seek out revenge. T'challa was redeemed because he gave up his vengeance. Zeemo and Stark both suffered the most because they became the most destructive over it.

[@jerner17]

I don't agree with the whole it was just a misunderstanding with tony and steve's fight at the end of civil war. I don't think tony cared that Bucky was brainwashed or not he killed his mom and dad no matter the circumstances he would want to kill Bucky and hurt that cap didn't tell him Edit: also why did you ignore the guardian movies from this, they both go against all your criticism? I'm guessing you'll touch on them in part 2

[@gamerman360]

Jeremy Turner tbh it was pretty dick of cap to say nothing

[@ThePonderer]

Jeremy Turner not just that, but Cap prioritizing Bucky over everything else had only made Tony’s life a living hell over the course of the film, and contributed to the team falling apart. Tony has a LOT to be genuinely mad about in that scene.

[@JustKrin]

Also they made very clear that Tony doesn't care, Cap repeatedly states that it wasn't Bucky's fault and that killing him isn't going to bring his parents back and Tony either ignores him or tells him that he doesn't care

[@aolson1111]

It's still a pretty childish scene, as that is not how a rational adult would act at all. And they copied that scene in that bullshit Infinity War scene with Peter Quill.

[@jerner17]

siderisn you said pretty much everything I would say. The movies aren't as shallow as people try to make them out to be, what's shallow is their understanding of the films

[@Themoushtaceleague96]

I don’t care you ragging on the MCU, but “Into the Spider-Verse” is the best Spider-Man movie

[@vendaboi8652]

Definitely

[@myself2noone]

Mask of the Phantasim situation. Best Batman movie doesn't get considered because it's animated.

[@jordansweet8054]

@@myself2noone True.

[@Mylestrom]

​@@myself2noone Yeah, a lot of people work with that logic. You and I both know they're wrong, though. :-)

[@ethansumner688]

I love Homecoming to death, but “Into the Spider-Verse” is definitely my favorite Spider-Man movie

[@nathanlipp9871]

I love your videos man! Keep it up!

[@CapedCrusader777]

This was a brilliant deduction. Patrick Williams, your videos are awesome

[@BrookfieldRocks]

I actually completely disagree with you on the Spiderman homecoming point. The motivation wasn't just to defeat the bad guy, it was to impress Tony Stark: a stand-in for his dad. The growth isn't that he finally defeats the villain, it's that he realizes he is is own fully formed person with independence. He turns down the offer from Tony stark because he wants to prove himself to be a strong superhero without Tony's help. When he dies at the end of infinity war, he apologizes because he's sorry for "disappointing" Tony and thinks he's a failure for not being strong enough. This may all just be my opinion, but this theme was one of the biggest reasons I loved all the recent Spiderman films, both in the MCU and in spiderverse: they're about a kid just trying to prove that he's strong enough to be independent while trying to impress his father. Personally, that resonates INCREDIBLY with me.

[@ReconNarwhal]

GeeksandGaming Spider-Man lacks his defining trait as a character in that movie: his terrible “Parker” luck. Peter works as a character when he acts as a pillar of morality in spite of whatever shit life throws his way. Throughout almost all of Homecoming Holland’s Peter is bailed out of any and all consequences for his actions bar his failure to defeat vulture’s gang on the cruise ship. For example, when Peter returns to join the science Olympiad club (I forget what it was called), he isn’t denied entry because he’s been skipping out of practice to be a superhero, and thus forced to find another way to get to DC (perhaps hitching a ride on the top of the bus as spider-man), instead his teacher and his teammates except Flash accepted him back with open arms. The scene where Iron-Man bails him out of fighting vulture in the beginning of the movie has the same flaw, he doesn’t experience the consequences of his rash actions. Compare these scenes to Spider-Man 2 where Maguire’s spider-man is constantly reprimanded for both choosing to act morally and immorally, yet Peter still chooses to be a good guy. It’s night and day between the two movies.

[@BrookfieldRocks]

@@ReconNarwhal man I didn't say anything about Tony maguire Spiderman, don't act defensively. I was just trying to point out a really good theme in homecoming that he didn't see in the video. That's all, man.

[@ReconNarwhal]

GeeksandGaming I never implied that you did. I was using your comment as a leaping off point to compare the two films.

[@BlureTiyers]

Thank you for being on the "Bring back Sam Rockwell" train that I've been on seemingly alone for 9 years.

[@Jake-pr7js]

Vito Selvaggi he was in a marvel shot with the mandarin at least

[@stevenfraser81]

They should've had Justin Hammer as the dude that Walton Goggins played in Ant-Man & The Wasp. It wouldn't have made the movie any better but at least he might not have felt like such a spare part if he was a previously established character.

[@leafbladie]

15:50 the point of Spidey's character arc was that he was trying to grow up too fast. Decide his life before he even lived it. In the end, he realizes it's enough to just be a friendly neighborhood Spider-Man

[@galactic85]

Nope. If the movie was about him learning "not to grow up too fast" then why does the climax revolve around Peter literally going after the vulture by himself AGAIN and with even LESS tech to help him than before and succeeding? If the lesson he is supposed to learn is "I shouldn't be in such a hurry to grow up so fast" than it makes no sense to have the character basically try to do more than ever before and succeed without making any meaningful changes to his behavior and how he fought. Instead he tries to be even more "adult" and succeeds then turns down his reward so that we can get the illusion if a character arc.

[@CinemacrestStudios]

Excellent video with great points and logic. Love your style!

[@tathagatamitra9753]

Patrick, bro, you've inspired me in a lot of ways... but this is the first time I am disagreeing with you. You are oversimplifying too many things - Hydra, End of Civil War, and Homecoming too... 1. Without Hydra, TWS would have been just a philosophical question rather than an action film. 2. Cap believes in people. Not systems. So it doesn't make sense that he will give himself up to the system like the comics. 3. Homecoming makes Peter realize about consequences. He did the right thing, and still without wanting to, hurt someone he cares about. That and the realization that he doesn't need to be an Avenger to be a hero, really shows who Spider-Man is in the MCU... and that needed to be said, more than just another Spider-Man story that takes place in the same universe. Having said that, I am looking forward to the next part. Can you do all of us amateur filmmakers a favour, and create a call to action word like 'Excelsior'! Would love that.

[@SLFKimosabae]

What a disappointing critique. I was excited to see your take on this premise because I usually find your videos insightful, and the MCU as a concept has some obvious narrative flaws and limitations, but it just seems like you came across that silly Stan Lee quote and made up your mind regarding the MCU sometime early in your rewatch and engaged in some heavy-handed motivated reasoning to get to some of these conclusions. i.e., how do you completely miss the point that Homecoming's Peter Parker decides not to become an Avenger because he comes to the mature realization that he's still a kid with enough responsibilities on his shoulders already, and has more growing to do? Probably because you were too busy looking for your own contrived brand of "change" to see what was clearly in front of your face. Is the responsibility of balancing Spider Man and Peter Parker not one of the core ethos of the character? In this light, your interpretations of Winter Soldier are just... WTF? Especially considering the political climate of 2019? The Civil War comments too. This essentially amounts to the "No Stakes!" caricatures that we see parroted over the internet in empty chorus again and again. This is just... a bad video, that will help continue poisoning the well of discussion surrounding these films. Maybe the subsequent videos will make this one look better but I have my doubts.

[@jonnemesis11]

"Peter Parker decides not to become an Avenger because he comes to the mature realization that he's still a kid with enough responsibilities on his shoulders already, and has more growing to do? " Literally WHERE/WHEN does this happen? Peter acomplishes exactly what he wanted and suddenly changes his mind in the end FOR NO REASON. Your conjecture is not in the film

[@SLFKimosabae]

@@jonnemesis11 Then you need you need to rewatch the film. I don't know if your'e looking for a teenage monologue or dance number segment, but this is essentially one of the more obvious subtext of the film, most hammered by Tony Stark's role.

[@jonnemesis11]

@@SLFKimosabae Lol no it's not, what you're talking about is not in the film. YOU are the one desperately looking for something in the film to justify its problems. Peter has no reason to reject Stark at the end because that's exactly what he wanted throughout the movie, there is never a moment in the movie where that changes.

[@SLFKimosabae]

Lol, okay, guy. Very convincing argument there. You: "Your interpretation's not there!" Me: "Uhh... what about Tony Stark's clear role as an admonishing mentor? The sole purpose of his appearance in the entire film? His role has zero influence??" You: "You're interpretation's LITERALLY not there!!" I'm not "desperately looking" for anything. That was my interpretation of the film from day 1 and you're not providing any actual evidence as to how this interpretation is wrong or disingenuous. Not going to waste my time responding to you again, since it's clear your mind is made up in agreeing with Patrick. @@jonnemesis11

[@jonnemesis11]

@@SLFKimosabae It's the truth, you never proved it was becuase it isn't. The scene doesn't make sense.

[@b.sharp.]

The change you wanted from, but felt was unfulfilled by, Captain America in the Winter Soldier was merely just set up. The change was solidified in Civil War when he had to fight his friends.

[@galactic85]

True but I think part of the point that patrick is getting at is that these movies should have complete stories and character arcs. The MCU isn't a TV series. In a TV series you can set up character development in one episode and then actually enact a major change to their identity 5 episodes later.

[@b.sharp.]

@@galactic85 I get what you are saying. I believe you can find examples of that in movies like Age of Ultron, just as he said. However, another main grievance that Patrick raises against the MCU in this video is that the characters do not change enough. For that point, he sites films such as Winter Soldier. I'm not arguing whether or not starting story arcs in one movie and then not finishing them until completely other movies is either good nor bad. I am simply stating that characters do in fact have major shifts and are extremely dynamic. Especially our good friends Stark and Cap

[@galactic85]

@@b.sharp. I think Patrick's aware of that. One of the "to be continued" sections in either this video or the second part ends with "next time: do these movies work as one long form story?" I dont think patrick is denying that these characters change from movie to movie but I think he is trying to point out that they rarely actually have complete arcs in any one individual film. They go in with the same ideas about how the world works and leave with the same ideas about how it should work.

[@Kasino80]

@@galactic85 that is probably what he means, but at the same time, he says that the change he wants in the movies that happened in the comics, sometimes took years to set up and revert. CA:TWS and CA:CW are two chapters in the same story. He can't have it both ways. I haven't read that many comics, but I'll bet there isn't a life altering event in each issue.

[@doxazo5512]

Gotta disagree with you about Homecoming. Peter turned down the Iron Spider suit because he knew he wasn’t ready to be an Avenger. He knew that... well... “with great power comes great responsibility”, and he wasn’t responsible enough yet

[@sobs291]

Ok, but there isn’t any actual change in the original Spider-Man trilogy. He goes through the same struggle of being Spider-Man three times

[@ashleydawson9882]

He changes alot. In the first it's accepting responsibility and learning what he'll have to sacrifice to be spiderman. In spiderman 2 he changes and see self worth in himself outside of the mask coming to terms with mistakes he's made and taking the responsibility he has as peter parker to be finally comfortable within himself. In 3 it really shows how much he has grown when the symbiote takes all that away to make him an angry self lothing mess who blames everyone else for his mistakes. Him realising that gets him to rid the symbiote which falls onto eddie who is peter without all the growth. Then it all ends with main theme of 3 which is forgiveness and peter realising through sandman the only person he hasn't forgiven is himself. And that's just the main growth within the themes of each film there are loads more little changes

[@jonnemesis11]

That's a blantant lie, there's lots of growth and change in the original Spider-Man trilogy.

[@serenityq26]

have you read a spiderman comic run? lol HELLO THATS WHAT YOU GET! "ooh im a scientific genius yet i still cant figure out how to have a REAL job and be spiderman at the same time so i live as a bum with no food or money in a shitty run down apartment always depressed and complaining about "my curse" and "responsibility" meanwhile people who are supposedly on paper dumber than me (nova, firestar, marvel boy, every avenger/ff member) have figured it out. oh the tragedy of being spiderman boo hoo hoo" he's super LAME and everytime someone comes in to shake it up and have him GROW and PROGRESS like i dont know actually USE his degree and get a REAL job or become a BILLIONAIRE you "fans" complain and its back to same old loser bullshit cause you can only relate to a loser instead of being inspired by someone great and strive to improve your lives.....

[@dickssportinggoods3227]

serenityq26 serenityq26 Yeah because being a superhero is their job and some of them already started out as rich people, or do not feel Peter’s guilt at all. No shit they aren’t gonna be miserable. If Spidey took the steps of the other heroes he’d lose his purpose as a character and make Uncle Ben roll around in his grave. And we already know what happens when Pete becomes rich cool guy, because thanks to Dan Slott we got some of the shittiest Spidey stories of all time which just demoralizes Peter as a person. Sure Spidey may mope and get reasonably angsty sometimes but he has a good heart and is able to put aside his frowns for a smile. People aspire to be like Spider-Man so they can grow as people themselves..

[@sobs291]

serenityq26 I have read a ton of spider-man. But believe it or not, most movie goers have not. And to them, and most people seeing the same struggle play out 3 times in a row get old. Obviously spider-man 1 and 2 are great, but they have that problemz

[@tiaaaron3278]

You oversimplify most of MCU almost as much as you're overglorifying Raimi Spider-Man.

[@RedPlanetPictures1]

Some strong and interesting points between this and part 2. I don't agree with everything, but I appreciate the thought process and presentation and you've opened my eyes to some stuff I'd been overlooking. Good stuff, subscribed.

[@darkecofreak23]

16:30 Civil War is about what the comic was about: the divide between Iron Man and Captain America over the civil liberties of superpowered humans based out of the US. And when James Barnes, a superpowered person on the level of Captain America, seemingly blows up a summit where nations of the world gathered to instill some order over the chaos of superheroics, Tony would rather let the government he once eschewed try to capture the culprit, because that’s how actual law enforcement agencies work. More officers means less possibility of their target getting hurt or hurting others. Steve would rather try to capture Bucky himself because he’s the least likely to die trying. He still thinks the least casualties will come from him directly intervening, his life over the dozens of lives Bucky might injure or end, especially if the Winter Soldier programming kicks in. The movie doesn’t forget about us feeling bad about enjoying superhero battles. We know that consequences will come from the big superhero battle at the airport. Clint and Scott get put on house arrest. Tony is under persistent surveillance. Steve, Natasha, and Sam have to leave everything they’ve known to go on the run. There are real consequences to their decisions in this movie.

[@z7983]

MCU Civil War is literally nothing like comic Civil War. MCU Civil War was a joke of an event, the whole airport battle is a complete joke where the characters are literally just playing with each other. The movie is still good, but its a good Captain America movie or a good movie in general in fact but not a good Civil War movie, Civil War is supposed to have extreme consequences but MCU Civil War barely had any and if you think it did then you clearly haven't read the original Civil War comic. Also don't even get me started on how much Russos nerfed Iron Man in that movie to make Cap look cool.

[@piemn252]

Really good video and great Charlie parody. But I think you missed the point of Winter Soldier. It's true Captain America doesn't change, because he was right. Everyone keeps telling him to change and he is validated sticking to his beliefs. The characters who change are the ones around him, mostly Black Widow. This is the movie she decides she isn't just a spy anymore, but a hero. Nick and Falcon are changed by Cap's example. The movie is about how Cap's example brings out the hero in those around him. I find the movie similar to Dred, where the main character doesn't change, but the supporting characters do in response to the main character's beliefs. You're spot on about Homecoming though.

[@Icepick614]

I'm impossibly excited for endgame

[@Vishnu_Karthik]

You must be young

[@troyareyes]

@@Vishnu_Karthik Or he's an adult and likes what he likes.

[@Icepick614]

I'm 23 so I've kinda grown up with these movies. Personally I watch these movies to have a good time with my friends, we all work now and it's harder to get together now because all of us have our own lives now but it's become tradition to take off work and see these movies opening night then have dinner and talk about it. I can see it getting a bit stale for Pat because movies are basically his job but for me and my friends the movies are an escape from the mundane which is why I love movies.

[@Beastinvader]

Yeah. Almost 23 as well and I still love every single one.

[@1v9s9o6]

In civil war Iron man goes through the exact arc you talked about in 18:18 just a little bit earlier, when he disobeys the order of thunderbolt ross, realizes he has been wrong and goes to help captain america stop the super soldiers, without any authorization from the sokovia acords.

[@calebscott2339]

This video is fantastic and it wonderfully articulates an issue that I would find hard to explain, especially because this franchise is so popular and critically acclaimed. I have only ONE problem with it. You say that, when Peter lifts the debris, intent on going after the Vulture, he is still motivated by his desire to prove himself to Tony and become an Avenger. However, at this point in the film, Tony has abandoned him and Peter no longer sees this as an option. He thwarts the Vulture purely because he knows it's the right thing to do and he makes it his responsibility to do so. Later, Tony admits he was a little harsh and gifts Peter the suit back, saying he's earned it. I think Peter grows from: being Spider-Man because he enjoys it and because he's chasing the highs of his Avengers mission, to: returning to his philosophy he states in Civil War: "If you have the power to do something and you don't, and then the bad things happen, they happen because of you". As he truly learns the breadth of "With Great Power Comes Great Responsibility", he turns down becoming Avenger, realising he has a responsibility to Queens and also that he still has a lot to learn. But, like you say, making him an Avenger in IW kind of undermines this which is a shame because Homecoming had a really good lesson about humility and responsibility.