The Limitations of the Marvel Cinematic Universe PART 3

Get CuriosityStream free for 31 days curiositystream.com/patrickhw... Promo code: patrickhwillems
WATCH THE FULL CONVERSATION WITH GRIFFIN NEWMAN bit.ly/2FMOxQJ
“Road to Endgame” by Siddhant Adlakha bit.ly/2WE24Qb
Watch THE TICK amzn.to/2Yzh6rZ
Blank Check podcast bit.ly/2U1ON73
Follow Griffin on Twitter bit.ly/2FJ0Zk6
______________________________________
PATREON ► / patrickhwillems
PODCAST ► bit.ly/2TqZtuA
REDDIT ► bit.ly/2Uj44j0
______________________________________
TWITTER: / patrickhwillems
FACEBOOK: / patrickhwillems
INSTAGRAM: / patrickhwillems
______________________________________
Matt Torpey / matthewtorpey
Jake Torpey / jrtorpey
___________
SEND US SOME MAIL:
Patrick Willems
P.O. Box 380333
Brooklyn, NY 11238

[@alexandelsosa7718]

the Marvel cinematic universe being described in a sports analogy was something I did not know I needed until right now so thank you so much I appreciate you big time

[@strive9645]

I mean, you can just look at the way fans are slavishly devoted to their "own" Cinematic Universe and compare it to how they're devoted to their sports franchises, and it's very similar. The rabid Marvel and DC fans taking pot shots at each other on Twitter look a lot like rabid 76ers and Celtics fans taking pot shots at each other on Twitter.

[@evalisa5044]

Shonen and WWE work that way too.

[@RetepAdam]

Eva Lisa Patrick H Willems is actually an origin story for Super Eyepatch Wolf.

[@petrfedor1851]

That analogy perfectly describes why I am not much interesting in MCU.

[@TolikRolik]

Always love a new vsauce video

[@roreah]

Michael here

[@YumiSumire]

Pattrick does remind me of Michael.

[@Exanion]

Wait a second, I haven’t seen them ever together 🤔

[@YumiSumire]

@Daniel Tromp You're up to something.

[@lawrencecalablaster568]

I wish that he still made those with some regularity.

[@collinsmith7078]

Griffin was such a great and knowledgeable guest. Loved hearing his thoughts. What an incredible series Patrick!! I'll be revisiting these for years to come.

[@cb1784]

Agreed. That McDonald's analogy was so perfect

[@Isa-154]

do it RIGHT now

[@sidhantmathur3612]

Have to appreciate these videos, I don't always agree with all the points made, but a ton of effort goes into this and making good long form content.

[@ob2395]

Sidhant Mathur 43 minutes now constitutes long form content? 2019 sucks. People suck.

[@TheSaucysdead113]

E O'Brien There were once writers who lamented the advent of the computer because a keyboard and monitor just didn’t have the soul of a typewriter, just as writers once derided the typewriter because you couldn’t feel the story flow through your pen with that confounded contraption. Argue semantics all you want but people don’t suck, times change bruh.

[@nardpuncher]

I agree. Even though I am satisfied with the MCU I'll still gladly listen to Patrick for hours

[@ob2395]

@@TheSaucysdead113 People say bruh. Ergo, people suck.

[@Robin-eq7uz]

E O'Brien you suck.

[@frasermacleod9804]

That young, pale man makes some exceptionally good points.

[@LoganLS0]

You just described everyone in this video.

[@tubamonkey1]

This video is irrelevant in Brie Larson's eyes

[@cancerjuly1989]

Which one?

[@HeatherHolt]

cancerjuly1989 ahh you beat me to it :)

[@joelmiller2601]

Ryan Paye Did we watch the same video?? I disagree with some of his points but that doesn’t mean they weren’t strong.

[@Slug99]

That line about ER how "maybe Clooney comes back for the finale" is hilarious since Clooney literally did return as Bruce Wayne in the finale of the DCEU

[@JasonEPerkins]

27:02. Honestly, "Guardians of the Galaxy" was exactly what they're talking about. A director put his own spin on existing characters to say what he wanted to say.

[@gregorioguerrero1124]

"A director put his own spin on existing characters to say what he wanted to say"; that's literally what Snyder did with BvS and look at how that went down.

[@tehcerialgamer]

@@gregorioguerrero1124 you can put a spin on existing characters, it's just that Snyder did it very badly with BvS for the most part

[@harinimarchadi1204]

@@gregorioguerrero1124 i think the issue there is that snyder didn't 'spin' the characters- he made them unrecognizable

[@illmadeknight]

I think it is also that not every Spin will work. We want the studios to take chances with directors and stories. Synder's spin didn't work for us, but someone else's might. We have to hope the studios will make a few smaller (read cheaper) movies that allow directors to take a chance without it absolutely being a hit so that it can money.

[@zesalamel22]

I think you're missing the part where putting your directorial spin exists alongside the creative freedom to NOT have to set up another movie. The worst part of the BvS movie was the contrived conflict between Batman and Superman. The shoehorning of Wonder Woman into the film also took away time from Superman that should have been used to develop his character in the film. The biggest complaint of the DCEU Superman is that we spent far too little time with him. What we saw, what we've been seeing in all these extended universe characters, is a "studio managed" directorial spin. I'd argue that isn't what these guys are talking about.

[@TomGallagherSuperboyBeyond]

i love that you got the guy who plays Arthur in the Tick. He's awesome and the show is awesome.

[@benwasserman8223]

Tom Gallagher - Second Hand Media Spoon indeed! 🥄

[@tawdryhepburn4686]

Check out his podcast BLANK CHECK WITH GRIFFIN AND DAVID. It’s my favorite.

[@jonsnor4313]

He is a true nerd. And makes goos fair points.

[@jonsnor4313]

And i hope he can play nightcrewler one day.

[@TheDrudgenator]

Jon Snor I wish he would play hydra henchman from Deadpool in the movies

[@iainronald4217]

Did you ever hear Mel Brooks' story about when he tried to cast John Wayne in Blazing Saddles? They met in the studio-lot cafeteria and he approached them and said, "Hey I heard y'all are making a film where cowboys tell each other to shove it up their ass." Brooks saw the opportunity and offered to cast John Wayne in the role that went to Tom Huddlestone, and John Wayne's response was "Naw I couldn't do that, it would ruin my public image. But, I'll be the first one to buy a ticket." So brand management was a thing with John Wayne. On every one of those sets, you probably had a handler who made sure there's nothing in there that would go against the true, hard-living, pioneer American image that John Wayne built his career on. He'd probably spend the day with a clipboard ticking off boxes and conferring with the script supervisor to make sure everything was A-OK. Guess who watched westerns mostly in those days? 8-15-year-olds, the same fanbase for comics.

[@celinak5062]

+

[@Hhhhhh-sz9ud]

8-15 year olds isn't the target for most comics anymore, it's closer to 13-30

[@FINNSTIGAT0R]

@@Hhhhhh-sz9ud Man that's sad, if the prime audience for empty eyecandy spectacle is now 30yrs old. That means it's junk food entertainment for life, since it veeeeery rarely happens that people 30yrs old will change their palate in significant ways.

[@stephanieaensland6520]

@@FINNSTIGAT0R I dunno. I think it just takes that one spark to alter someone's paradigms on media. I used to hate having to untangle dense metaphor in movies until I watched the Folding Ideas video on Annihilation. I was 35 when that single video helped me gain the tools I needed to properly understand metaphor and gave me a much deeper appreciation for many movies and stories I had previously not enjoyed. I could finally watch David Lynch with something other than bemused annoyance and confusion.

[@olivergiggins7931]

John Wayne wasn't the genre though. If he didn't want to do Blazing Saddles, it could still get made. Unlike cowboy films, superheros are almost exclusively owned by two companies, Marcel and DC, which are themselves exclusively owned by huge corporations. The only two kinds of superhero films are "child friendly" and "with swearing, breasts and blood". The Blazing saddles aren't getting made at all.

[@Raken531]

All three of these videos were so cathartic.

[@2Fiddle4U]

Oh my god, yes. Yeah, all that I had thought of all this time was mentioned in all three of these

[@Insomniac_Hart]

No... its kind of like showing a fish out of water a picture of water. So id rather define it as torture for those who cannot wait. Personally I believe these videos are in their simplified form just peoples way of dealing with waiting for something they wish they could binge watch now.

[@Jay-jb2vr]

@@Insomniac_Hart nice one

[@JenniferMcMahonhawaii78]

Watching Spider-Man 2 now...still only Marvel based movie to make me cry. Oooo...that look that Peter gives MJ at the pier and then swings away all whilst dramatic music plays in the background.😍😪😢

[@mongverongpi2991]

Spider-Man 2 is the GOAT.

[@doxazo5512]

I’m really impressed, that sports analogue was genius and original

[@henryglennon3864]

I like how the producer keeps wandering in and out of the interview at the bottom of the screen.

[@3laws292]

Came here just to talk about him/her. So cute and tbh a great comic relief.

[@nicklockk]

I think that’s actually a dog

[@alexander-ru4gd]

I worry that future Avengers movies will suffer due to a lack of chemistry between actors. The original lineup is very, very fortunate that the core players work so well together, and their relationships are well earned in the series (for all its other flaws). If they make another Avengers movie with the sort of next gen of heroes, I cant see them having the same level of chemistry, the relations, and such

[@sdprz7893]

Feige already said Endgame is the last Avengers movie

[@rastarapha]

Whedon Writting > All

[@alexander-ru4gd]

@@sdprz7893 ah, thats probably good...though I imagine it will kill the longevity of the franchise

[@theobenzmiller5522]

That's only a problem if they attempt to replicate the same formula. Maybe they don't need a small number of big teamups every few years. They could do more frequent smaller teamups (Carol and Thor, Spidey and Strange, etc.), or they could do crossovers where part of they draw is that the characters have absolutely no connection. It's not like RDJ and Chris Pratt have any unique chemistry aside from generally being good actors, but it still worked because of the dynamics between the established characters.

[@Dave102693]

Maybe New Avenger movies every 7 years?

[@tylermane77]

Hell yes somebody finally giving Ang Lee's Hulk some much needed love! Watching early 2000s superhero films like Hulk, X2, Spider-Man, Batman Begins etc are retroactively refreshing because they're just movies. They are a filmmakers vision. They have more meat and grit to them than anything in the MCU post 2015.

[@mongverongpi2991]

@Snehil Shrey WRONG!!!!!

[@mongverongpi2991]

@Snehil Shrey cool.

[@NouveauArtPunk]

so nice to see Griffin's beautiful face out of a moth costume

[@wakingagency8328]

Crazy. 2 years later how Hawkeye & WandaVision both match the comics Patrick referenced 21:42

[@boywithbutter]

bro i was looking for a comic pointing this out, shows how much he loves the genre

[@Gemnist98]

Most important question of all: WHO'S THAT CUTE DOGGY AT 23:37?

[@robgronotte1]

He was just a photobomber. What city was shown at the end?

[@sudevsen]

They didn't even pet him

[@Gemnist98]

@@robgronotte1 Uh, New York City.

[@nicholasmaslennikov2128]

I mean, Matt Reeves used the Planet of the Apes franchise as backdrop to tell a story about how fear, hatred, and hubris can destroy civilizations while civilizations focused on peace and kindness can survive. I feel like he'll take a similar approach to Batman.

[@NealFowler]

And lo and behold he did!

[@GregHamblin]

Are we not going to talk about that glorious The Tick hat?

[@jblue1622]

This video I hope drove up viewership on the show

[@EloquentTroll]

It truly is wonderful, kinda want one, not even a hat girl

[@sharlesdaviskendy2391]

What I would like is for Marvel to stay with their episodic, interconnected, one long story type of universe. And I want DC to just get interesting directors with a strong vision and let them run amok with however they want. We can have BOTH...

[@shane55pwnt]

Well you can but so long as Marvel sticks to doing that I wont be excited for anymore of their films. So long as DC do what you mention, I will always be excited for a new DC film. Which is fine because there will also always be a lot of people who would be more excited for the exact opposite.

[@illmadeknight]

I agree with Shandalf. The Marvel style is starting to wear on me a bit also. I just can't get excited about them. If I know DC movies will be self contained stories with new and different takes on established characters, I am probably going to be there. I was also weary of the Phoenix Joker movie, but honestly, I have been getting more excited especially after watching the discussion about it here.

[@cosmicmcmoon5773]

You may be slowly getting your wish. Shazam is tonally unlike any of the previous DCEU movies despite references to the larger universe it inhabits. James Wan's flare for horror has inspired a horror-themed Aquaman spinoff featuring The Trench monsters. James Gunn has been brought on for the Suicide Squad sequel. And Spielberg will be either a producer or director for the Black Hawk movie. And then of course there's the Joker movie. While not connected to the DCEU, it is nonetheless intriguing. It's a really good idea to have a character driven film based around a villain. It's something that movie studios or comic book movies rarely tackle. I'm very excited because Martin Scorsese and Joaquin Phoenix are involved and look forward to seeing what they have to offer.

[@TheDrudgenator]

Judging by the new Joker movie I think we’re gonna get Auteur movies for the Dc movies and I’m really excited to see “The King Comedy”(Scorsese’s comedy show movie) but with Superheroes and villains . It’s excellent way to make something your own . I wish they would make a fully noir movie with the Question as the lead . Would be new and fresh . I actually wrote a script on it haha 😂 changing the way these are told is the only way to go

[@jordansweet8054]

I know right? Shazam and Aquaman are offbeat intriguing curiosities I love and the MCU is the fun blockbuster standard.I am perfectly fine with keeping them both.As Ken Wantanabe once said "Let them fight."

[@ericb5328]

Moth man actually offered some excellent insights! He was great

[@jusskrey]

It's so interesting watching this now, and how well you and Griffin anticipated where the movies & shows would go

[@jamesesw]

Forget the MCU, the closest any other media has gotten from replicating the Superhero comic book formula is the Arrowverse. The crossovers, the events, the laziness, the awful storylines... It's perfect.

[@Fushishou]

I agree on all 4 points. It's trashy but it's my favourite trash.

[@jblue1622]

Fushishou you two are cute! Lol

[@davidv4018]

Yup. There is a lot of "divinization" of comics between fans, i disagree and i have fun when reading comics, sometimes something great comes out, sometimes something really bad.

[@yodaiam6996]

Arrowverse is shit

[@zaqqaz]

Ha!

[@danielheflick1529]

I've agreed with a lot of the points you've made throughout this series, but I've also left lengthy comments on both of the previous videos filled with my criticisms of your methods and purpose. I complained that you either didn't have a strong thesis or that it wasn't being properly explored and followed through on, and I opined that you were overlooking the differences in the mediums and how the MCU has actually brought some new innovations to superhero storytelling by straying from the source material. Your conclusion addressed both of these issues directly (not that I think you were responding to me specifically or even at all, just that you had recognized the same things I was critiquing), and while you ultimately wound up acknowledging that the thesis of the series had shifted as your focus became more and more on how movies can't be 1:1 replications of comic books, either in narrative or in style, something felt undeniably empty about the end of this video. And I don't mean that in a bad way. There's something to be said for digging into a problem, only to find your own views challenged or at least placated by your findings, and I think the end of this video communicates quite succinctly how a search for answers and solutions can sometimes just end with the realization that maybe there wasn't a real problem in the first place without that realization fundamentally altering the original feelings that informed your search to begin with. I'm not sure other KZbinrs might have been as honest at the end of a month long deep dive into a subject, doubling down on their hot take even though they no longer completely agreed with it. I have a lot of respect for you that that's not the path you took.

[@pugward]

yeah, it was definitely ballsy of him to end it like that--acknowledging that sometimes, good is good enough.

[@swanpride]

Not really…. I have generally a problem with this specific youtuber, because his methodology is lacking. And not just when he talks about Superhero movies. He has a tendency to, well, select facts. Meaning he first puts together a theory and then makes really half-baked arguments to support it. Ie, one of his arguments regarding why Robin Hood failed was that supposedly the character hasn't had as many adaptations as a standard comic book hero which is simply not true, one only has to glance at the Wikipedia page to know that there is at least one "big" adaptation every decade, either in movies or on TV (and one every other year if you add international media to the American and British one). Here he at least half acknowledged that his feelings might have mislead him and that the movie format in itself is limiting, but he never really addresses how limiting the MCU actually is. I mean, just listen to the conversation in the end. They bemoan that there will never be a movie within the MCU in which a director realizes his vision and tells a concluded story, but then they praise Black Panther for doing exactly that, exactly the same movie which is also used as an example earlier for a movie which can only exist within a framework like the MCU. They say that there will never be a big overreaching vision again like you would get in a mini-series for comic, but isn't Guardians of the Galaxy exactly that, James Gunn getting a bunch of toys and being allowed to run with it? And when they praise the Elseworld stories they kind of overlook that those mainly work because there is a world they can be "else" of. Which is why I personally are way more excited about the notion of Marvel making an animated "what if" series for the MCU, than the notion of being constantly bombarded with new versions of Joker and Batman, without ever getting Gotham as a fully realized place. But that's just me. I don't begrudge anyone for wanting something else. I just dislike the notion that what I want not being equally valid, or "just fast food". It's condescending.

[@TheUltimateZMAN]

22:10 I thought they'd be able to take risks on Disney Plus, but for the most part, they've been playing things extremely safe. Oh well.

[@dinohardbody]

Patrick H Willems and Griffen Newman just talking about the MCU. Maybe this isn't the darkest timeline after all.

[@Slinkylinky179]

Watching this in 2022 and it's crazy how much you predicted both the disney plus series and the end of Endgame. Great video! Edit: WOW you even guessed which arcs they were going to adapt including Vision and Hawkeye

[@hamedmanoochehri5136]

Love this channel and its fans. what a great community. happy Norouz (Persian new year's eve) to all of you, guys.

[@eleanortaylor4768]

Happy Noroux to you too Hamed!

[@Jfbmu]

I am so proud of this community

[@oof-rr5nf]

Happy Norouz to you too, mate

[@burningmisery]

Likewise.

[@hamedmanoochehri5136]

​@@oof-rr5nf Thank you. hope we all have a better year than last year :)

[@tylertrice1911]

watching this today (for like the 5th time), and find it funny when they mention about people not wanting to go to movie theatres, just wait patrick, just wait

[@Eilowyn]

Because sports analogies are easy, I appreciate Griffin's concept of following the MCU is like following a sports team. At work, we don't come in Monday and say, "how 'bout them Patriots?" We say "how 'bout that Captain Marvel?" There's a universality to the MCU that allows disparate people to connect because everyone's seen them, and everyone can comment on them. They're universally pretty good, and that speaks to a wide range of people. If I went to work and said "how 'bout that Sorry to Bother You?" people would get confused. Sorry to Bother you is a film infinately better (heh) than a Marvel movie, but it isn't universally liked or known. It's also a Marxist manifesto, and those don't go over well in workplace conversations. I think that's the success of the MCU: it's something everyone can connect to, even if they haven't seen every movie.

[@Carcosahead]

Just like pop media. Everyone can comment about it and be part of that.

[@jordansweet8054]

That's probably why I love this stuff.I can debate Avengers vs. Guradians more easily than most summer camp ice breakers and I have no problem with that.

[@TreetopCanopy]

This reminds me of how independent creators could be making their own stories with a lot of these charcters if US copyright law hadn't changed so dramatically in the 1970s. Spectacles would still exist (see Robin Hood, Sherlock, and other public domain characters with big budget movies), but we would also see contemplative, indie interpretations

[@sigmacademy]

I have to agree. Indie productions have always innovated films, regardless of whether it was zero budget, low-budget or better. They manage to do more with less, and it creates a lot of breakout stars in much larger numbers than studio films do. The stories are also more intimate and a lot more universal than bigger films, merely because they always focus on an individual and/or smaller group of characters around that core person. The setting is also mostly local, in an environment that many find instantly recognizable.

[@TheUncomplicator]

We would also probably get a lot of terrible sify versions of Superman and Shazam

[@martinmystere1359]

How many independent Robin Hood and Sherlock Holmes movies are there?

[@tawdryhepburn4686]

Martin Mystere lots of competing versions. Sure they have studio budgets, but they’re not all the same studio and they’re not all forced to carry the same kind of reverence.

[@martinmystere1359]

@Saturnus 2033 superman 2034 batman 2036 captain america

[@kktt7554]

Totally agree, the MCU is like popular fast food chain, not some gourmet restaurants. Sure you can write long reviews critiquing all the burgers at McDonalds, but do we really need it lol If anything the MCU should be studied as a successful business model, not some top-rate movie making case.

[@markparkinson6378]

Now an official trilogy. Congratulations, Patrick.

[@sudevsen]

Plus a crossover 3rd part

[@markparkinson6378]

@@sudevsen Yep. The most anticipated crossover ever!

[@jamestrickingtonIII]

I was on the fence about these MCU streaming shows, but you've convinced me they might actually enhance the movie's emotional resonance and make for an overall more satisfying experience. I just hope these shows aren't as cheap looking as the Netflix ones

[@leonardoventura6403]

Waiting for PART 4, talking about phase 4.

[@ItsTheFizz]

I love how striped shirts have become your brand...

[@hayleymd5315]

Michael Scally good fashion is his brand

[@davidv4018]

Now i can only see the stripes.

[@NarwahlGaming]

It's like 'CuriousDroid' where the shirt is a feature in each episode.

[@jmn327]

Really liked a couple of points made in here: for example, the fast food one. I've long equated MCU movies with eating at Wendy's; as big, universally-known drive thru places go Wendy's is arguably better than most, but ultimately, while you can still enjoy what you're eating, it still feels a bit disposable by the end when compared with something that's made from scratch. Also agreed that Black Panther, Ragnarok, and Guardians 2 are three of the better MCU films, but even with them I found myself at times not enjoying as much as I wanted; I felt like I wanted each to exist as its own film universe, to spread their stories out (e.g. I would've liked separate Thor movies for the actual Ragnarok plotline and the Planet Hulk-style side story), but due to the needs of the connected universe each film had to pack more into one movie, sometimes leaving me feeling like I got too much from it instead of a more overall satisfying experience, especially since I knew most of what was happening was being in done service of setting up Infinity War. It just gets exhausting after awhile, I suppose.

[@swanpride]

See, for me all the Superhero movies which came beforehand were like fast food. Something to consume whenever there was nothing better on TV, but forgettable and rarely satisfying. While the MCU is for me like a dining on a menu. I might not like the next course when I glance on the description, but I am excited about tasting something new and exciting, and I am usually not disappointed.

[@jmn327]

@@swanpride Yeah, it's definitely something subjective. For me, I just feel like I know what I'm going to get from the MCU, and after a time it got a little boring. Not bad or anything, but I admit I'm more partial to movies where there's a chance taken and things just don't really work, whereas Marvel's tried and true style produces good content, but content I just can't get myself too excited for...though, again, I at least feel Guardians delivers something different, on average, which is why I rank it on top for MCU Marvel.

[@TJRtheOriginal]

Great Conversation: One Thing though.....For as great as Logan is, it requires your memory of the previous X-Men movies in order for it to resonate for you.

[@adeptdamage3669]

To be fair I haven't seen an X-Men film in years, and yet it made me tear up in the end.

[@blokey8]

I beg to differ. I came to it having only seen X1 and Logan floored me. While I'm sure it works better with that previous viewing, Mangold and his co-writers instilled a huge amount of implied history.

[@route682]

I was literally seconds from falling asleep but then I got the notification, thanks for adding to my already horrible sleep schedule Patrick

[@dracocrusher]

"People don't go to the movies as much anymore" BOY does that hit differently after 2020!

[@ScottTeresi]

Weren’t you going to talk about Guardians of the Galaxy?!

[@ViveLRoi]

The closest the MCU can get to making something as self-encapsulated and thematically-dense as Spiderman 2 is probably Black Panther. They could have tried in Phase I, that would have been a good place to try, but they went a different way.

[@shotton25]

Best part of mcu videos so far. Truly fascinating to hear your conversation with your friend. Great video. Love this channel!!

[@alexdworkin7839]

is this seriously 43 minutes long?? AND the third part!

[@ReeferInferno]

like why

[@NyJoanzy]

No, that's just a feminist conspiracy. This is actually the first part. You gotta watch them In reverse.

[@TheLingo56]

@@ReeferInferno This one is closer in tone to a half in the bag style video where it's just a conversation with a bit of edits and points in between. First two parts I would assume are just cause if you're passionate about good movies you kinda just spam a bunch of text and think about this stuff a lot for fun. Topic that's mostly unimportant, but it's fun to talk about and discuss.

[@BitmapJack]

this is a waste of time .lol it s a biased opinion , ill pass

[@zanetrain1651]

@@BitmapJack Guy does one 20 min video on how good The Last Jedi is, and now hes on his 3rd MCU video with clocking in at over an hour and half talking about how bad MCU. GTFOOH guy

[@e9gy]

Wow, I completely agree with the Big Mac analogy.

[@AkinduDasanayake]

38:15 I have to admit, that zoom-out shot with Gymnopédie No 1 in the background was beautiful.

[@paniklewe]

Thank you for your final statement - I'm always upset if the fans go rampage about a movie that is not as awesome as they want it to be, while they overlook the fact that (if the movie is at least ok) they get another point of view/another vision of the story - while they still can have and keep the initial story in the initial medium.

[@maximeteppe7627]

my main frustration is that the biggest movies right now are underusing the medium of cinema... on the other hand it as always been true of mainstream cinema at any given moment, we just remember the best parts and forget most of the rest.

[@jordansweet8054]

Amen! Sometimes you don't get the burger you wanted but you get something else great in its place.

[@TheBeird]

I think the problem I'm having now, is that there is no real ending to this. If they had a five year gap between Endgame and the beginning of Phase 4, I'd be more willing to keep going with it. Yet if this is gonna go on forever, I just can't do it. It's why I can't get into Manga like Beserk or One Piece. Goddamn things aren't ending and there's so much.

[@____uncompetative]

H.D Beird Fuck off then. It will all be around for you to watch years after I have supported all their hard work in the cinema.

[@rsfilmdiscussionchannel4168]

Highly doubt that it'll "go on forever". But I agree that they need to handle Endgame properly for the MCU to have what many can view as a definitive ending. Some viewers will have Endgame be their last, so it has to be a satisfying closure.

[@TheBeird]

@@____uncompetative I'd rather not

[@TheBeird]

@@rsfilmdiscussionchannel4168 I suppose. I reckon Guardians 3 will be MY last.

[@TheBeird]

@Twinblades Those are fair points. Maybe its my age, and I'm now at a point where long term stories just don't interest me unless I know there's a destination. Trust me, One Piece intrigues me, but I've neither the time nor money to get into it. Hope its fans are still enjoying it though

[@JayFingers]

Griffin hit the nail on the head: We’re about to see Sam Wilson take the mantle of Cap for the next series of films. I’m still excited for the future of the MCU. (Also still hope to write an MCU film but that’s a topic for another day. 🤣)

[@thu6muff1n]

I love this series. That said, I do think the homogenization of the 21 MCU movies is overstated. You have multiple genres and tones and themes across these movies. Still, good discussion and content.

[@sudevsen]

Tones? Not really. It's mostly Wheddon-lite with exceptions like TWS and BP

[@thu6muff1n]

@@nope5657 Funny thing about genres: they are much more complex than you're letting on, and more simple at the same time. True, the MCU movies are the same "genre." Action and adventure. But I'd argue thats the most populated genre in film. Fast and Furious, Harry Potter, LotR, Terminator, The Matrix, Die Hard, etc. These are very different movies, and you could argue that they're in clearly defined and different genres, but they are all still Action and Adventure movies. The MCU movies don't have the same spanning depth of genre complexity relative to the entirety of A&A, but there's enough (imo) that claims of homegenity are overblown. Black Panther and Ragnarok are as different from each other as First Avenger is from GotG. That's not homegenity imo.

[@thu6muff1n]

@@nope5657 Nor does it homogenize genre to the extent its critics insist.

[@jordansweet8054]

I agree.I never understood that complaint.

[@EposVox]

Huzzah! This series was a good watch

[@r4bbitdragon]

Speaking of where we’re gonna get the weirder movies, by directors more focused on delivering a specific take: I can’t help but think of Thor Ragnarok here. That movie very much feels like Taika saying: ok, how can I use Thor to tell a story about the legacies of colonialism? Maybe that’s one way, in movies for the more second string characters that the higher ups are more ok with experimenting with.

[@idealtrajectory]

You know, I've seen a lot of KZbin promo things, but this is the first one I've actually acted on. Thanks for the tip, Patrick. I love doc's.

[@3guys1girlandfetus]

I want to see a David Fincher Batman with the Riddler as the bad guy

[@scivekay6221]

so se7en but with batman? Yeah I'm totally into that.

[@paxton9892]

Now i need that in my life

[@angelcastaneda529]

Can you imagine Fincher’s Gotham? It’ll be a visual spectacle.

[@wesstewart2677]

You sorta got your wish

[@grouchypseudopod354]

Can we get a making of video on that final pan out? That was literally spectacular.

[@ronshvartsman7630]

just a drone?......

[@MackerelSkyLtd]

Chained_Down_Django A drone would actually be fairly difficult to keep stable for that long at low enough altitudes where you get propwash interference. My guess is some sort of wheeled vehicle combined with a Ronin-S or similar. Either way, bravo tutti.

[@DoubleO88]

All these videos sum to "they're good but they could be better" and I agree.

[@DrIvoRobotnick]

He also says "How"

[@oof-rr5nf]

same tbh

[@TheLingo56]

@@DrIvoRobotnick I mean that's the title of the series, but it also does discuss theories about why some superhero movies really make you feel something and others would be completely forgettable if the characters weren't showing up over and over.

[@LaylaSession]

Very good points about Ragnarok and BP, the two films that introduced me to the MCU and still my favourites to this day. Hopefully we will see more films like these in the next years. Thank you for this long and well-structured 3-part essay :)

[@oof-rr5nf]

They, along with Winter Soldier to a lesser degree, are my favourite as well :D

[@blokey8]

There are good points with Ragnarok, but I think that while it connects nicely to other bits of the MCU, it runs into a tonal brick wall where Ragnarok is concerned - to the point that I think they should've gone relatively serious and made Ragnarok "Thanos lays siege to Asgard for the Tesseract."

[@ayubali2431]

well we are getting Thor: Love and Thunder and Black Panther: Wakanda Forever in the same year, so congratulations i guess ;)

[@babykekse5137]

This is my favourite part. I love that it's primarily a discussion. It had a podcast feel.

[@cesar5379]

Has any heard about the What If series they are making for Disney+ about the MCU? I’m pretty excited about that.

[@abepeterson7045]

@Cesar I have no idea why no one else is taking about it, it sounds like a great idea and in my opinion a much more interesting idea then the other spin off show they are thinking of doing.

[@PhantomFellows]

Wandavision was on its own a payoff and the majority of viewers seemed upset that it wasn’t partially a commercial for what’s next so I wouldn’t expect Marvel to try self contained ideas again unfortunately

[@serugolino7867]

Yeah the first half with the sitcom stuff was probably the most creative thing marvel has ever done. And people hated it for some dumbass reason

[@toontrooper4103]

Oooooh that Disney+ idea sounds great! I mean I love the MCU but yeah it's getting dry. I'm already in too deep to turn back after Endgame so I'd love to see things shaken up a bit with smaller scale TV shows. I specifically love that it COULD focus on the side characters. Someone like Spider-Man practically IS his own universe but Vision doesn't have that, even though he's still cool.

[@Insomniac_Hart]

So... you are being sarcastic right?

[@dcmarvelcomicfans9458]

@@Insomniac_Hart no

[@toontrooper4103]

@@Insomniac_Hart about what.

[@oof-rr5nf]

Vision would be dope as a character who actually got to do something. He looks like a too-polite-for-his-own-good non-human perpetually confused by the behaviour of humans and it is charming dammit! But I have only seen what feels like five minutes of him (I have successfully blocked out all of Age of Ultron) so I don't know him at all and I don't like that. Most of Marvel side characters are more interesting to me than the main ones tbh. Vision, Valkyrie, Nakia, Okoye, Sam, Bucky, Nebula, Gamora, Peter's friend Ned lmao, etc

[@cowzoo5577]

Griffin is so good when he gets going, the Blank check Podcast is one of my faves and it's great to have him here.

[@knott2001]

The algorithm threw these back at me and it’s been interesting rewatching them in a post endgame world. It feels to me that Marvel have actually been attempting to address a lot of Patrick’s criticisms (with varying degrees of success). I’d be interested to hear this topic revisited. No hurry though. I also like my KZbins to have things that aren’t just discussing the MCU all the time.

[@olivermutalemumba2913]

The new discussion should be on how Comic Book television and how diverse and interesting it has become. Talk about the themes of Luke Cage or how Doom Patrol is unapologetically weird and heartfelt. Television/Streaming is where all the new talent has gone to. A lot of interesting genre stuff which are great. Hollywood is a homogenous hypetrain that lacks imagination.

[@Zombeastsqurl]

I have to agree with the sports team analogy, because you CANNOT say ANYTHING even remotely critical to some people without the harpies descending.

[@ofgraham]

That fast food analogy was really insightful

[@rickycarrillo7821]

Patrick: these marvel movies need variety! Also Patrick: *owns 20 striped shirts*

[@elijahanderson3288]

I LOVE "Blank Check with Griffin and David"! You're so lucky, Mr. Willems!

[@aaronlevine6498]

The possibilities of the Marvel Cinematic Universe would be a good counter to this...

[@sudevsen]

Just watch any video where sweaty white dudes fawn and jerk ff over how awesome MCU is like Collider

[@Telsion]

@@sudevsen that wont cut it and you know it

[@jlupus8804]

That’s like defending the laugh track at this point

[@aaronlevine6498]

@@sudevsen Everything has cons and pros.Im just being logical. There are certainly limitations of MCU and there are vast possibilities of MCU too. You have tunnel vision seeing only one way. You people need better education and stop being gullible...period

[@aaronlevine6498]

@@jlupus8804 Sadly Narrow minded people like you exist too.. 😂😂😂

[@jdnk]

Glad to see someone standing up for Ang Lee's Hulk

[@Numbuh1NerdX]

I think the thing with having “takes” on characters is that those tales should have the context of the default character. We live in a world where the only way to convince audiences that Batman is off the deep end is having him brutally murder people. We need a baseline, so that all of the people that aren’t going to read comics, the ones who will only watch the movies (y’know, most people) aren’t thinking that Joker is just some edgy philosophy major or that the Riddler isn’t the poor man’s Joker. It’s like what you said about Robin Hood and King Arthur - audiences need the status quo to care about the bold shakeup of it. Let directors have a voice, but let their voice match the character.

[@abhijeetmalhotra1345]

Why should it "match" anything? It's fiction for God's sake. That is why franchise fans are so annoying why can't you accept a new point of view. Then you wonder why these movies aren't considered cinema. If Snyder wants Batman to be a murderer(as big a fan I am of the original Batman), guess what, in Snyder's movie, Batman should kill. Because it is Snyder's vision if the movie carries his name. Why do viewers walk in with entitlement and sense of control over what artists do?

[@konnorbrown2985]

Loved this series my man incredible work

[@SoloJona]

When Patrick uploads a video, you know you're in for a treat

[@weareribbons]

Back hair?

[@jabelzebub1451]

The most relevant and comprehensive Marvel/ any movie video analysis online

[@ThePrimevalVoid]

The analogies in this video is on point. Especially the one comparing the MCU to sports.

[@benwasserman8223]

I mean the Arrowverse has definitely done a better job than its film counterpart at building this ongoing universe for DC. Hell they’re set to adapt ‘Crisis on Infinite Earths’ next fall

[@Dave102693]

It's not gonna be as good if it was a long ass TV special all to itself.

[@spiderjeranimo4992]

its sad that Crisis on Earth X was better than Justice League but i will say recent CW shows have sucked hard imo, they're no longer making superhero shows but teen dramas that are almost as campy as Twilight

[@benwasserman8223]

Spider Jeranimo Tell that to Legends of Tomorrow. It goes all out in the silver age weirdness and is all the more awesome for it

[@dcmarvelcomicfans9458]

@@spiderjeranimo4992 arrow is still good black Lightning's good Legends of tomorrow is good the only ones that suck are Supergirl and the Flash season 5

[@citizenspencer8057]

@@spiderjeranimo4992 you say that as if it's a bad thing

[@blermblish]

dude, thank you for all the work you put into this series!!! up 'til now, i think i'd been taking the MCU kind of at face value--i mean really just treating these films just a basic form of entertainment, not totally worth reflection. but these episodes were both thought-provoking AND entertaining!! solid work, man!

[@ritzallsep6668]

Dejen dirigir una película de Marvel a Patrick Willems YA!!! Greetings from México, I would totally watch a movie directed by you, love your work :DDD

[@woogywips]

First off, thanks for a great channel and a great series with these last 3 episodes. Your channel has quickly become my absolute favorite for video essays about film due to your insights and creative ideas. Also, your presentation style manages to be different from most others while not resorting to being pretentiously quirky or silly. With regards to your discussion in this video, I had two things immediately come to mind: 1. I wonder if the Cinematic Universe style of film making (arguably the closest parallel to the Westerns of yore as opposed to Super Heroes in general) has actually played a part in teaching studios that big budget films can work with characters and backstories that aren't spelled out on screen, but rather alluded to or shown, and it can still make a bunch of money and be hugely popular. If someone can see Black Panther as their first MCU film and not worry about T'Challa's father's death not being fully explained or who Klaue is and it can still be that popular then why not a film that doesn't exist as part of a universe the viewer didn't watch? Look at John Wick for example; not too long ago and a movie like that would have required an origin story to explain how he's so badass and who all the people are he's dealing with. Instead, now the studio accepted that all the viewer needed to see was that the mob boss was super formidable and intimidating, and then show that "Oh shit" look on his face when he realize who his son screwed with. I think perhaps we have Marvel to thank for that being possible in a big budget film starring big names. 2. While I tend to agree that the Ang Lee Hulk experiment movies are probably not in the cards for Marvel in the near future (though who knows; Guardians of the Galaxy came awfully close with its unique voice and non-reliance on the MCU lore), I do think there is room for the MCU to take more risks with individual films and filmmakers. It seems clear they were afraid to do that with Wright and Ant-Man, but learned their lesson later with Gun and GoG because they were probably really surprised by its success. Like you said in the video, it seems like Black Panther is another example (albeit and imperfect one) of them taking a risk on a filmmaker's vision with a big name. It seems to me that if they can just learn to no do things like taking away a creative team's voice for just the action scenes and so on, then we might get close. Maybe not to an extreme, but to a more satisfying level where things like GoG are more the rule than exception. I'm also holding out an irrational hope that Endgame with fracture the MCU into multiple universes using the reality stone where you might get Feige overseeing multiple mini-MCUs run by other people with their own visions which could every once in a while re-coalesce into bigger event films. Beyond all that though, I do wonder if maybe we might still get the type of Ang Lee Hulk films you are talking about from other, smaller comics and new and unique characters. I feel like John Wick could easily be very similar to what a Hawkeye or Black Widow solo film could look like in terms of an unpowered person who is just an all-around badass, and like I mentioned before, I do wonder if that film would have even been possible without the MCU's influence on the cinematic landscape. I mean, the Spawn movie is shaping up to be a completely different style of superhero film from what we've seen thus far, and no one can argue that Deadpool was on it's own a very unique and focused movie, telling its own story in its own way. Just because it was snarky and goofy, we shouldn't dismiss its artistic merits too.

[@archer1949]

Right now, my favorite Fox\Marvel things are Legion, followed by closely Logan. Nothing has come close in my eyes. If Disney+ can come out with something more like that, I’m all for it.

[@doriandegrandez8886]

It's funny because at the end of Endgame, Sam Wilson picks up the mantle of Captain America

[@evanthesquirrel]

This episode is so hopeful for phase 4. Such a grand and intoxicating innocence.

[@MidlifeCrisisJoe]

Is this how you honor the 616 house, and the films unmourned?

[@TempoLOOKING]

I seen Dr strange 2.....KILL ALL HUMANS 😮

[@TempoLOOKING]

4:41 liars I eat Mc Donald's in China. YOU LIE 😂

[@Aeterus]

Their is a Quote from a German Football(Soccer) Player (Translated) : "After the Game is before the Game"

[@1dr_wall769]

Holy shit man. This was quite the ride, to see how your thoughts and opinions changed throughout the process of making these videos. You clearly put an insane amount of work into making these videos and it shows. You're hands down my favorite KZbin personality, keep up the great work!

[@awglasgo]

I think you are overlooking all of the movies based off of Mark Millar's books. Kick-Ass, Wanted, Kingsmen, are examples of how the genre of comic book movies could evolve. All in all, I'm a big fan of your videos.

[@jessechounard]

Do you think Spider-Man: Homecoming gets the same boost from being in the MCU as Black Panther did? They don't need to give his origin and the relationship with Tony already makes sense.

[@shaimach]

Given they killed Stark and Rogers and Natasha and permanently changed Hulk, and given how amazing Joker was, I think perhaps this conversation needs a PART 4.

[@Ganondward]

The piano piece at the end is Erik Satie's Gymnopedie No. 1 btw.

[@pluezilvlk8427]

Thank you !

[@MellowGaming]

Patrick... Please take that sticker off of your Spider-man cap. I'm begging you. Also, great video and whatnot.

[@danielduff]

Dear Patrick, What are your thoughts on Endgame? I shared a lot of your issues with the MCU, but came out of Endgame having really enjoyed it. Although, ironically, it was such a terrific ending that I'm no longer really looking forward to any future Marvel movies (aside from Guardians Vol. 3 of course) Anyways, what did you think? I'm really curious as to what you thought of it.

[@galactic85]

He shared his thoughts on a couple different podcasts. He talks most in depth about it on the one he co-hosts. "The infinity podcast."

[@danielduff]

@@galactic85 thanks! will check that out

[@Brandknob]

The two-shot during the conversation portion just reminded how little we see Patrick's legs.

[@andrewincavo3893]

Solid ass interview. I was worried that I’d be bored watching such a long video but nope. Love your content pat:)

[@swedishgalaxy94persson82]

Spider Man 2 is my favorite superhero movie and hearing that it is still great make me happy Thanks P(H)W

[@NotSilasPipson]

This is without a doubt the single most nuanced, well-put-together take on the MCU (and greater film industry as a whole) I’ve ever heard. Griffin’s analogies were incredible. Still don’t know who the fuck that guy is though, definitely not a real celebrity.

[@kaiwilliams141]

Stellar series and great work as always

[@ZachMayfield]

I love the idea of short films and series. I think it could give super fans some deeper content to really geek out about.

[@drewfisher4304]

This changed my entire point of view on the marvel universe!

[@Ritchietheblackman]

This is hitting every single feeling I had about this franchise I didn’t even know existed in me.

[@wrestlingbuff87]

This is just absolutely brilliant. I've struggled with the Marvel movies for so long now; like, they're fine movies and I'm waiting for that one movie to click but I just keep waiting. Honestly, after Endgame, I really do wonder if they'll sustain their hold on the culture like they have...

[@davidb.brandon2552]

I'm floored by how prescient these videos were