Excellent as always. The inherent contradictions between slaves being livestock, but freedmen being (almost) full citizens is remarkable.
@jarisundell8859 Жыл бұрын
The contradiction is in the interviewee's assumptions that a slave must fit our modern image, rather than accept that slavery was a different institution than what we abolished 200 years ago.
@ManicPixieTransGirl Жыл бұрын
@@jarisundell8859nice apologism for slavery
@yallimsorry5983 Жыл бұрын
@@jarisundell8859yes, the random KZbin commentary is so much better than professional historians who study the sources and physical evidence.
@shock_n_Aweful Жыл бұрын
In my research of Nerva I found that he changed the law regarding torture of slaves. He made it so that there had to be evidence that the slave actually knew something before jumping right to torturing them. Not very humane by our standards but quite a leap for them I think.
@neskey2 жыл бұрын
loving this series! I didn't know I'd find ancient history so entertaining
@marniusvanderlubbe2 жыл бұрын
these podcasts are great thank you so much
@Krommer1000 Жыл бұрын
Another great listen!
@nathanielscreativecollecti63922 жыл бұрын
Great conversation. Quick thing, there are about 15 countries where slavery is still practiced.
@kleinesgespenst7481 Жыл бұрын
Thank you so much for this interview, this was much more interesting and informative than all the documentaries I have seen on the subject.
@mm-yt8sf Жыл бұрын
i suppose as the number of slaves in a household gets really high one would need more slaves who keep up the slaves, not just management, but cooking for them, perhaps making simple clothes for them, etc
@minewolf562 жыл бұрын
Keep up the good work I love your videos!
@dudakoff1000 Жыл бұрын
I sent you an email a while ago requesting a video on slaves and was ecstatic to see many of my questions answered in this one! Keep up the great work, you've got some of the most interesting channels on KZbin.
@johnspizziri19192 жыл бұрын
Outstanding!!
@Michelle-Eden Жыл бұрын
Thank you. That was fascinating.
@atevensnderson582711 ай бұрын
You seemed impressed by the fraction of people who were slaves. I am suprised how low it was, compared to areas of the Caribbean and gulf states with 70-90% of population. I've always thought the lack of mechanical entrepreneurship was attributed to the shear number of bodies they controlled. Were amost of these workers in Egypt making grain and Spain growing grapes mostly technically free?
@lukesmith1818 Жыл бұрын
Fascinating conversation as always
@alankovacik192810 ай бұрын
love this book!
@stanislavkostarnov2157 Жыл бұрын
I wish slavery was illegal in every country in the world, but, there're places where (at least De-facto) that is not the case I am afraid... they might use Euphemisms, but, both through gang-rulers, & very official systems of incarceration, de-facto slavery is still a thing in the less fortunate parts of the world
@sarahsarah2534 Жыл бұрын
Isn't the US prison system simply slave labour?
@stanislavkostarnov2157 Жыл бұрын
@@sarahsarah2534 not to the extent it is say in China (PRC), Russia or Myanmar... and not to the extent of some semi-official systems in Africa. but to some extent, forced convict labor is used in the US as well (I would say it is less of a system thing, at least not on a federal level... the system is more about causing psychological/physical pain then about turning a profit)... I would say it is more of an exception than the rule & is more pronounced of a thing in the State then federal system.
@sarahahmed113 Жыл бұрын
@@stanislavkostarnov2157 Are Chinese and Russian prisons run for profit by private companies like US prisons? I didn't know.
@stanislavkostarnov2157 Жыл бұрын
@@sarahahmed113 in the US, most Federal facilities are run privately as a service to the government... that is, there cash flow is from the government rather than the inmates themselves... forced convict labor meanwhile, in is usually done not involving the operator-firm, but rather, directly by offices of the government/military who have means to enforce thesame... whilst this is a driver of bad conditions in the penal service privatization is not part of the slavery issue (though a part of many other problems)
@stanislavkostarnov2157 Жыл бұрын
@@sarahahmed113 whilst how pervasive it is percentage wise it is hard to say, certainly many Chinese prisons also double up as factory-sweatshops which are run as government affiliated firms... These are not private organizations, though, often subject & profitable to connected individuals not directly private however.....
@dennissalisbury496 Жыл бұрын
Crucifixion was the go-to method of enforcing compliance for Roman Slaves by the Roman Army/Military.
@spyman7402 жыл бұрын
Love the podcast, do you plan to publish an audio only version that can be accessed by podcast apps?
@toldinstonefootnotes2 жыл бұрын
Glad you enjoy it! You'll find the audio version on Apple Podcasts and almost every other podcast app.
@spyman740 Жыл бұрын
@@toldinstonefootnotes Thanks so much!
@tomasparriles6440 Жыл бұрын
In the ancient world all people of all cultures have slaves(if you can pay for it)....some owners where good and some others bad......
@RonJohn63 Жыл бұрын
37:25 Exactly like the _nouveau riche._
@33Donner77 Жыл бұрын
Due to our industrial-technological society, slavery does not exist in most regions. Child labor, sex slaves, extremely low-wage slave labor,etc. still exists. If societies change, large-scale slavery may once again reappear in the future.
@tomasparriles6440 Жыл бұрын
You live in a paralel universe....
@sarahsarah2534 Жыл бұрын
He actually lives in reality.
@LuvBorderCollies Жыл бұрын
@@tomasparriles6440 You need a reality check from Communist China and Islam.
@grimble4564 Жыл бұрын
@@tomasparriles6440 Slavery is undoubtedly evil and wrong but its also a natural consequence of economics. If we didn't outlaw slavery, it would still be standard practice because the most efficient way to do business is with free labor. Literally the only thing keeping us from slipping back into slavery is our modern sense of morality and one could argue we're not even far that off from it. Frankly I would prefer to be enslaved for a set number of years knowing that I could earn my freedom and make good connections instead of being paid 7.25 an hour indefinitely for the rest of my life in dead-end jobs that should be paying me at least 23 an hour. Business is inherently anti-human because it's concern is with the dynamics of currency, not the betterment of society.
@MrViki60 Жыл бұрын
@@grimble4564 "Slavery is undoubtedly evil" arguable.
@Reziac Жыл бұрын
Ha! I have How to Manage Your Slaves (and Release Your Inner Roman) -- such fun books. Not mentioned in this discussion, but pertinent: Slavery was seen as the humane alternative to simply slaughtering a defeated people (so they didn't become future trouble). Rome being so successful at conquest, they wound up with a lot of slaves. I recall reading that one of the Imperial higher-ups begged the field commanders not to bring home any more slaves, because Rome was already overrun with more slaves than anyone could possibly use. One wonders if that wealthy man's collection of 400 slaves, most with little to do, was functionally a form of welfare.
@khalidalali186 Жыл бұрын
It’s fascinating how we have more slaves today, then back in ancient times. 50 million living slaves, as of the 31st of December, 2022.
@scarletpimpernel230 Жыл бұрын
That's true, but only in absolute numbers. By percentages, slavery has virtually vanished from the globe today, whereas perahaps the majority of people in ancient times were held in some type of slavery.
@khalidalali186 Жыл бұрын
Touché.
@NathanDudani Жыл бұрын
@@scarletpimpernel230vIrTuAlLy
@user-jv9qz2bu1r11 ай бұрын
I am a wage slave and slave to the state - annual property tax of $15,000 on top of all my other taxes
@khalidalali18611 ай бұрын
I’m sorry to hear that, J. You should move into a tax haven, like me.
@alastair08 Жыл бұрын
So what's the makeup of slaves to citizens by the 'fall' of the WRE? Did slavery survive in to theodoric's time and if conquests happened less, were there less slaves? how were late Roman villas etc supplied with free labour?
@professorsogol5824 Жыл бұрын
Would you consider a question about classical Greece and Rome that I have here to fore be afraid to ask: What about underwear at the time? What did men and women wear under their togas? If you have addresses this question, would you please let me know where. Thank you
@toldinstonefootnotes Жыл бұрын
I address that question in the very first chapter of "Naked Statues, Fat Gladiators, and War Elephants." You should be able to read it via Google or Amazon preview.
@professorsogol5824 Жыл бұрын
@@toldinstonefootnotes Thank you.
@keithagn Жыл бұрын
Very interesting, and indeed, uncomfortable podcast. Thank you! Regards from Canada 🇨🇦
@sarahsarah2534 Жыл бұрын
Only uncomfortable for the clueless on human nature.
@tlewis171 Жыл бұрын
My students have enjoyed this book, and were fascinated by the differences (and similarities) between Roman and plantation slaveries.
@khalidalali186 Жыл бұрын
@41:24-41:36 I think Liberia 🇱🇷 springs to mind 😆
@mm-yt8sf Жыл бұрын
i was watching a streamer who was snacking on raspberries. when he switched to some other finger food i said in chat "you eat like an ancient roman", which he acknowledged but when i followed it with "all you need is a slave to hand feed you" i had that comment deleted by a moderator and scolded that i can't say that kind of thing in chat. i wonder that having a friend in classics in college, and watching channels like this one i'm more out of step with society than i would have thought. has anyone else wandered into such a surprise?
@ChalkyWilston Жыл бұрын
I wouldnt say that youre out of step with society, rather that making jokes about people owning slaves likely isnt seen as being in good taste for someone like a streamer, for whom projecting a friendly brand is of upmost importance
@notmyproblem889 ай бұрын
"How dare someone be offended by my joke about slavery? I learned about it in college therefore I have the absolute right to joke about it anywhere, anytime, in front of anyone, because academia."
@nebojsag.5871 Жыл бұрын
God help any slave who was owned by a former slave. Nothing is worse than a poor man who becomes rich.
@yomommaahotoo2645 ай бұрын
Yes slaves often adopt the system..... Land of the fee, home of the slave.
@jakegarvin76342 жыл бұрын
"Yeah, we do slaves, but don't worry, we like to build some fun into the system"
@sarahsarah2534 Жыл бұрын
Yeah, we use child labour to mine metals in Africa, but don't worry we have pop music.
@alastair08 Жыл бұрын
Yeah, we do slaves to make our coke, but dont worry, cos we like warehouse parties too much, and ketamine with our breakfast
@jakegarvin7634 Жыл бұрын
@Sarah Sarah don't forget that hot Nigerian film scene, it's bumping!
@jakegarvin7634 Жыл бұрын
@@alastair08 and limp dicks! Karma can be funny sometimes
@WorthlessWinner Жыл бұрын
If the average slave was only enslaved for 10-15 years, can we really say we don't use slaves? It's not like we don't have convicts doing labor for periods comparable to that
@jdawg15486 ай бұрын
The difference is that we as a society agreed to separate that person due to their crime(s). Instead of them rotting in a cell 24/7, we’ve agreed that they must contribute to society in a way so that we’re not just paying tax to keep dangerous people well fed and rested. However, your point is valid when looking at prison privatization, such as the current climate in prisons across the US.
@njm3211 Жыл бұрын
Legal slavery was widespread in the western world until the 1880's. Brazil bring the last holdout. One has to wonder if the Confederacy had won, how long would slavery have continued in North America. From the attitude of southern politicians it would probably still be in use today in some form.
@rhysnichols8608 Жыл бұрын
There were many in the confederacy that intended to end slavery, the dispute was the practicality of it. The south’s economy was largely built off slave labour, if they suddenly ended it, the economy would collapse, so there were plans to shift the economy over 20 years. I highly doubt it would have continued any later than 1900. The civil war started over tariff rates that crippled the south’s economy. The Union government literally signed a document the year before the war started essentially saying all slaves would remain slaves. The north didn’t give a shit about slavery, they only started to use it as a political football half way into the war to get more manpower and to portray themselves as morally superior. However the war never began with the intent to end slavery, the north past legislation that solidified the slavery institution. The war was about economics but the north cunningly use the slave situation half way into the war. Obviously it’s still good that they won, as it did end slavery much more quickly, but I’m simply saying the war wasn’t black and white.
@rustyshackleford2719 Жыл бұрын
It wouldn't have lasted much longer. It's not an efficient form of labor. Your last comment is absurd but one can expect that from a Yankee. Probably the kind of Yankee who loves public slavery.
@MarikHavair Жыл бұрын
@@rhysnichols8608 That intention where it existed did so under pressure from the North, if the South wins the civil war it's entirely possible any such intentions reverse course. Or to use an analogy, just because the slave does what you want when you're there to crack the whip doesn't mean he will when you're not.
@WagesOfDestruction Жыл бұрын
In a society that does not have social security, surely slavery served a purpose for survival for those really hard up.
@TraphouseTCG9 ай бұрын
“How to manage your slaves” US Prison System: 👀👀👀
@MrViki60 Жыл бұрын
3:15 but is it?
@Sinleqeunnini Жыл бұрын
I'm sorry, but I have to correct these two on what they say around 43:30 concerning there being no meaningful opposition within (in this case) the imperial Roman institution of slavery. The early followers of Jesus and those in the second century CE we call Christians actually did, by and large reject the institution within their group and clearly opposed it on principle. It is true that as time goes on and traditional forms of inequality and social hierarchy rework their way into various Christian communities (most particularly with the formal co-opting of Christianity as an aspect of the Roman empire itself under Constantine), but the perspective Jerry Toner is taking here stems from those later Christians who clearly lost much of what it meant to be a follower of Jesus from the early centuries. It was not always so. It is also likely that within certain Jewish circles that one would find an opposition to the institution for the similar reasons as the early Christians.
@Iancreed8592 Жыл бұрын
I demand reparations!
@josecarlosmoreno9731 Жыл бұрын
People can't imagine what it's like to own slaves not because slavery has been eradicated, but because it is "out of sight, out of mind" in the sense that the cheap goods that Western / 1st world nations enjoy are the direct product of imperialism which ensures an impoverished and compliant 3rd world which serves both literally and essentially as slave labor.
@jrodowens Жыл бұрын
shut up, Karl
@SethTheOrigin Жыл бұрын
that’s just a conspiracy theory
@rhysnichols8608 Жыл бұрын
The luxury the west enjoys is a result of centuries of hard work, innovation, creative genius and conquest. Granted imperial capitalism does and has exploited the conquered nations, this is largely de the profit of soulless cooperations and ruling elite. Vast majority of western population don’t benefit.
@LordLambertius Жыл бұрын
Uh.. Imperialism? I don't think you know what Imperialism means and are just using buzz words lmao.
@josecarlosmoreno9731 Жыл бұрын
@@LordLambertius Imperialism is the control of another country such that they defacto do not have sovereignty or it is severely restricted so as to extract value be it as resources or labor from the subjugated country. The reason the US spends so much on its military is to maintain its empire, its global hegemony, so as to funnel resources into the control of its economic elite which control and are the US government. The rest of the West, to varying degrees according to country, participate and benefit from US imperialism as either minor partners or puppets. Every time a country attempts to exercise sovereignty, they get either sanctioned, couped, or invaded by the US or sometimes another Western power such as France. However, due to the national myth of the US as a country of "freedom", it many times attempts to present itself as "not an empire", though there are many who openly admit it as well and speak of it positively (certain neocons). The reason "capitalism works" for the US is because it utilizes the 3rd world as slave labor. Instead of the US government officially administering subjugated nations, it does so through multi-national corporations that own monopolies over industries and natural resources. There is also a cultural imperialist aspect, where the US is the main and forceful exporter of degenerate culture. The so-called "Christian" country is the main exporter of godlessness and the complete disintegration of all human bonds in favor of dehumanized drugged up narcissistic consumers that die either alone or young. All this immense human suffering is sold as "freedom" and retarded Americans, both liberal and conservative, eat it up or check out of society.
@nancytestani1470 Жыл бұрын
I have that fat gladiator book, ha, really. So, the gladiators were fat, I thought they were slaves, but sex symbols
@nancytestani1470 Жыл бұрын
Slaves would have been really worked hard
@sarahsarah2534 Жыл бұрын
What do "sanitary" enforcements say about the power of people TODAY vis a vis the government??
@michaelhoffmann2891 Жыл бұрын
The comments about how "alien" we would regard Roman attitudes towards slavery across the distance of time, as opposed to "like us in togas", then as a non-American how would I consider the US South, which had that attitude as recently as 160 years ago, post enlightenment on the verge of the Industrial Revolution?
@NathanDudani Жыл бұрын
Alex, I'll take "That's not a question" for 200
@michaelhoffmann2891 Жыл бұрын
@@NathanDudani I confess, it is a bit of tortured grammar. My excuse is that I wrote it under severe post-surgery pain meds.
@Jeroen46 ай бұрын
Bro rattles! Slow down buddy😂
@lost1ns0und5 ай бұрын
this is the slavery mode of production
@Shakazaramesh3 ай бұрын
So you read the sparknotes summary of Das Kapital and want so show off, well done.
@sarahsarah2534 Жыл бұрын
Freed slaves sound as vulgar as today's new rich.
@sarahsarah2534 Жыл бұрын
Your feeling of superiority towards ancient morality is ridiculously anti-historical. There is no "right" morality, only circumstantial morality, but you clearly fail to see it.
@rhysnichols8608 Жыл бұрын
I disagree with your philosophical standpoint. There IS objective morality, granted many ethical concerns will widely vary depending on the circumstances, some things are always set in stone. And just because they may become necessary evils in an extreme situation, it doesn’t make them ‘right’ Utilitarianism doesn’t change objective right and wrong. If there is only 2 humans left in the world, and the female hates the male, but the necessary survival of humanity requires the women to be raped, this doesn’t make the act morally good, it’s still evil but a necessary one. Any moral man would still hang his head in shame afterwards
@rhysnichols8608 Жыл бұрын
I disagree with your philosophical standpoint. There IS objective morality, granted many ethical concerns will widely vary depending on the circumstances, some things are always set in stone. And just because they may become necessary evils in an extreme situation, it doesn’t make them ‘right’ Utilitarianism doesn’t change objective right and wrong. If there is only 2 humans left in the world, and the female hates the male, but the necessary survival of humanity requires the women to be raped, this doesn’t make the act morally good, it’s still evil but a necessary one. Any moral man would still hang his head in shame afterwards
@sarahahmed113 Жыл бұрын
@@rhysnichols8608 Bollocks. The very concepts of right and wrong are relative. Facts are objective, choices are subjective. We as tribes and as species have common grounds for sure, therefore common choices. But that doesn't make morality objective whatsoever.
@rhysnichols8608 Жыл бұрын
@@sarahahmed113 So child molestation isn’t an objectively bad thing? It’s relative to the circumstances? nonsense. This act has breve been seen as good by any civilisation
@sarahahmed113 Жыл бұрын
@@rhysnichols8608 No morals can ever be objective. By claiming this you are stating that choices are objective, which is blatantly absurd.