The many flaws of the Eldar Avatar in classic 40k

Today we learn about the Eldar Avatar. Was it a game breaking beast or has it always been a bit of a mess on the tabletop?
This video was filmed before I started experimented with AI enhanced images so its a little rough in places. Also, editing videos has been a bit of a learning experience so it will seem a bit clunky as well, let me know if you spot anything out of the ordinary.
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[@w1ntermut3]

I require at least 400 hours more of this please. Thank you.

[@OldenDemon]

Ok, I’m on it

[@w1ntermut3]

@@OldenDemon I actually feel guilty now. Thank you for all the hard work and effort!

[@rrwholloway]

Some reviews of old White Dwarf issues would be great!

[@marktimothysmith3981]

Surely you mean 40,000 more hours 😉

[@neurocidesakiwi]

401 please

[@buryitdeep]

Who remembers giving every model you could a sword just so it could parry an attack?

[@specialmeats]

The image of the Avatar emerging unscathed from the twisting plasma explosion (that resulted every time you killed an Eversor assassin in that edition) has stuck with me as the apex of what was cool about 2nd edition and 40k in general. It was such a mess, I don't think my friends & I ever managed to play a game rules-as-written, but every battle told us a memorable story.

[@chestersleezer8821]

I actually had an opponent try and shoot my Avatar with a Plasma Gun did not like the fact that it did nothing and my Avatar was still standing there with a grin.

[@Vortagh]

Fun Fact: That very battle report was featured in the first WD I ever bought and read (German issue #13) and what pulled me into Warhammer in general and 40k specific.

[@OldenDemon]

The Eldar were done so badly in that report.

[@1985slipstream]

​@@OldenDemon iirc the battle report talked about nearly taking 3 leman russ instead of the hellhound and leman russ.

[@jamess-b9119]

Likewise.

[@LanCorat]

Ebenso!!!

[@steppeone]

When you need to examine the meta 30 years later. Great video. Can’t wait for the next.

[@chestersleezer8821]

Well the best meta for an Avatar was a Vortex Grenade, send him into the Warp.

[@Kaiyanwang82]

Slow and stead. Slooow and steady. Or perhaps slow and purposeful. Yes.

[@Reaching8]

Wonderful video! I often find that 40k videos today mostly laugh at old models or act confused about the rules(though this is somewhat understandable). I really enjoy this kind of retrospective, where you get a real feel for how the model actually played, without getting too lost in the weeds. I hope to see more!

[@OldenDemon]

The next one is about the rules. Oh dear

[@katsura1982]

And if you want to play with any of these models, you can still use the warp spiders because they haven’t been updated!

[@kushanblackrazor6614]

I find Snipe & Wib to be very fair and even fond of the older stuff, although they tend to take a more general overview of older 40k material and don't get quite into the weeds like Demon does.

[@LordVader1094]

@@kushanblackrazor6614 They still have a very tongue in cheek "oh look how silly this is" type attitude when doing retrospectives.

[@IndianaSmallmouth]

Fyi, eldar are fast targets when they move. So an Avatar running 12" a turn was -1 to hit, behind hard cover, that makes him a -3 to hit. Even a terminator with assault cannon targeter would only be hitting on a +4. This made even howling banshees hard to kill, despite seeming weakness.

[@chrispowell2947]

as a 2nd edition eldar player I think I really missed a trick here lol

[@EOTA564]

You could always screen him with a Dread/Warwalker.

[@Valandar2]

The magic key to NOT having your Avatar fall apart in your army case? Pinning. Period. Short pieces of brass rod drilled into both ends kept it from falling apart.

[@The_Captain40k]

I don't think 11 year old me really understood pinning. I just used bluetack and superglue for all my big models. Yes they fell apart.

[@maxkircher4671]

It doesn't even need to be brass rod either. Paperclips do the job just fine too (speaking from experience in keeping metal Battlefleet Gothic ships and their flying stands together)

[@peterclarke7240]

I used to use paperclips for pinning, too! I'm sure I read about it in White Dwarf, back when GW still encouraged us to save money 😂 And pinning was absolutely essential once you'd moved to metal figures with plastic arms, because those suckers just did not stay on.

[@Kaiyanwang82]

I wanted to comment this but you were faster. Also the books back then would recommend it and show you how to do it.

[@maxbrandt6]

And using a good brand of super glue NOT Elmer's school glue, as did a number of kids just getting into the hobby back in 1994. I've seen a number of heavy models like dragons, Ork Dreadnaughts and even an Eldar Avatar just pop apart during the first phase of a 40k game and then that's when the screaming and tears would start flowing!

[@Jedi_Scowen]

2nd edition is the only edition I ever played. This was my time. I had every Codex. At least 1000 points of models for every army. I even had a Genestealer cult army and Eldar Exodites under conversion construction. I'd memorized every weapon stat. Then GW introduced 4 new armies and threw out 2nd edition for 3rd. That's when the hobby died for me. Dark times.

[@DarkAlex1978]

Yeah, dark times indeed. I tried to adapt to the 3rd edition but made me to rage quit the hobby. 1- They threw away the bright colors and the funny, mischieviously smiling Orks, which both made a nice contrast with the grimdark lore. 2- They BRUTALLY dumbed down the rules. Why all these things? The real reason was that GW wanted to lure on a new kind of customers: normie kids and edgy young teens with (parent's) full wallets.

[@rrwholloway]

Same. Still have my pointy helmeted Space Hawks Chapter somewhere in my parents loft.

[@stuartingleby1523]

Me too. The sheer cheek of being asked £30 (in 1998!) to buy new rules for models I already had was an affront. However... in lockdown I started re-painting some old models from my parents loft, and I saw the 3rd ed rule book for £10. I've been really enjoying small games of 3rd ed- imo a much improved ruleset over 2nd.

[@BrentWalker999]

Try onepage rules then. Free:)

[@MADSAHAD]

I got back into playing with my kids who never played before during the lockdown. I am proud to say that I am one of those players that started just as the 2nd Edition came out. 2nd Edition battles are the best hands down. I will not advance to any other Edition. Playing WH40K is not about how many battles you can get in on a Saturday afternoon but how many battles you remember coming down to the last dice roll.

[@Yamael]

Heavy weapons were no joke in 2nd edition, I once saw a friend bring out his brand new Bloodthirster only for it to die to a single lascannon shot the very next turn.

[@imperialus1]

Yep... I played Imperial Guard. I don't remember exactly how many I included, but I do remember that in a single round of shooting I could fire something like 12 heavy bolters and a half dozen laz cannons.

[@EntropicEcho]

To be fair, I don't know how they mechanically do this, must have been some weird alien material in the plastic or metal, but it's known that every mini you bring to the table the first time will die without doing anything meaningful. The better the mini is painted, the more lame the death on the tabletop will be.

[@bingobongo1615]

I mean 2d6 damage is like a cruel joke…

[@Yamael]

@@bingobongo1615 2d6 damage and -6 to saves against the 3+ on 2d6 save the Bloodthirster had (just like terminators had back then). It required some luck but it was perfectly possible to kill anything in a single shot.

[@BillosUK]

I remember being 12 years old and being utterly beaten by Chaos Space Marine Terminators against my marines but I will never forget hitting the Bloodthirster with a rocket launcher and rolling 10 on the damage table and killing it. I was still tabled but it was one my fondest memories from 2nd edition.

[@michaeljack4788]

"This software actually smells of Lynx Africa". Aha. Nice one.

[@petercolson2990]

I loved the beautiful irony of the Avatar being better in a fight with a Bloodthirster simply because it had fewer attacks and was therefore less likely to roll as many Fumbles. Sure there was always the chance of multiple 6s, but you need two 6s for the bonus and only one 1 for the penalty so it always felt like those attacks became a liability.

[@gustavoaraujopenha8463]

That's really not how the math adds up, as, althoug the first 6 don't give you a flat +1 to your combat score, it instead give you a WHOPPING 6+ to your combat score as you always use the hightest dice as the base for your VPs. Thinks this way, what's better? A 4 and a 3, the average, or a 6 and a 1? Rolling multiple dice greatly increased the chances of at least a 6, and your first six is the one actually contributing the biggest amount of points.

[@davybrewster2635]

You know when you discover a lovely gem on KZbin? This channel is one of them. I love this era of Warhammer having never played it and I love that this bloke has experienced it and is describing it for me

[@OldenDemon]

Thanks very much

[@DuellyO]

The Avatars weaknesses were well known back then, and would typically be found cowering behind two Wraithlords as it moved up the battlefield as it did when I played against it.

[@chestersleezer8821]

I only ran mine with lots of Guardians and Aspect Warriors with the Avatar leading the way.

[@franzgerber6059]

I remember another 90s Battle Report with an Avatar, but it was 3rd Ed though. German WD #36 December 98. Gordon Davidson’s Blood Angels vs. John-Paul Brisigotti’s Saim-Hann. He got a headshot from a Vindicare Assassin Turn 1.

[@tatters8236]

Ah, this reminds me of my first exposure to the avatar, in one of the 2000s issues of white dwarf (I don't recall the number but IIRC it was introducing some kind of new game mode?) in which the Avatar tried to deep strike in, scattered into a squad of Ratlings and died before even hitting the table.

[@witchkrieg]

As someone not born when this White Dwarf/edition was released, this was great fun. These battle report pictures are wonderful, I might have to make some for games with friends. Soul

[@demonmonsterdave]

Excellent video. One of the best I've ever seen due to the layered narratives and absolute understanding of its very specific niche in time.

[@justingregory2011]

This was so much fun and such a Nostalgia trip!! Please bring us more 🙏🙏🙏 Everything from the voice to the editing was spot on, keep up the amazing work mann

[@andrewfranklin6217]

I just want to say I was growing up and playing (The first time round) when you these White Dwarfs and those style battle reports were put. So this is all proper nostalgia for me. Absolutely love the cool battle report you did with Orks and Ultramarines too. Keep it up 👍

[@aaronbrown4275]

Love it! Great nostalgic video. Can't wait to see more.

[@jeancouscous]

It's fascinating to see how 40k was played when i was a kid who couldn't afford an army in the 90s

[@rustedcog2347]

omg I still have that ghazghkull thraka model shown in the intro. One of the first models I painted and full of lead. I use him to compare how my painting has improved over the years.

[@Paradox-Pixel]

As a new-ish player, who started playing at the beginning of 9th edition, I found classic editions of 40k to be fascinating! I kinda wish the current Avatar of Khaine had immunities, I can understand the logic. Flamers, plasma and poisons wouldn't work well against a giant molten statue! On the other hand, I can TOTALLY understand the annoyance of fighting something with that many immunities. Classic 40k really was a wacky world! :) I look forward to see more of your content in the future!

[@A_Wretched_Goblin]

That test card brought back some powerful memories

[@jordansorcery]

Really enjoyed this! Fantastic channel name too, great work mate!

[@vaultofmoravec5726]

I love your content. Nostalgia and comedy professionally delivered. Thank you

[@GrimSqueaker]

Just found this channel - and I am smitten. More please sir 🙏

[@AK86XXX]

Great vid, love old skool Warhammer, got into in 2nd/3rd edition. Looking forward to next vid

[@zolniu]

It's crazy that the Eldar Aspect Warriors minis from that time are still around today...

[@Xhumed]

Looking at the old Snooker-table model photos, and feeling both old, but also amazed at how far GW has come and the hobby in general.

[@OldenDemon]

I've never heard it called that before but yes, I suppose you are right

[@Xhumed]

@@OldenDemon kind of an inside joke, I suppose.

[@joshuapitchford293]

I love painting the avatars! I’ve painted five already.. they are definitely one of my favorites..

[@adamfox1669]

Great channel! I started playing 40k with these rules. Subbed

[@Terry_Pie]

'Square peg in a round hole'. Having owned the model in question in the past: I see what you did there.

[@designjobber]

Awesome video! Great work. Can't wait for more!

[@OldenDemon]

Thanks, I’m aiming for one every fortnight

[@alexdingle3944]

Great job! Some real top notch presentation and content.

[@OldenDemon]

The quality should improve in terms of editing, and image quality due to extra tricks

[@WiltrichsMiniatureArt]

Great video! I’m going to thoroughly enjoy this channel. 🙂

[@matthewlloyd3255]

I don't know why but seeing one of those old GW Box covers (the video thumbnail) gives me a warm, soothing comforting feeling, like I'm with an old friend.

[@7Stormwalker]

I just remember a battle report when a Black Templars Emperors champion defeated the avatar in CC and it was the coolest thing ever

[@MarcsMinis]

Love this, keep it coming mate

[@AndreHodgesFurniture]

My new favourite KZbin channel! Bravo

[@iblitzlord]

I love your work. Please continue.

[@hamzahsajjad7952]

This is great, loving the channel. some advice for growing the channel, I think it would really help to put the heading from the thumbnail "2nd ed deep dive" In the title, it gives people a tag to search up if they're looking for the series, which helps algorithm wise. Happy to say I'm here before the channel, (much like the avatar) blew up

[@stalker1983]

Loved 2nd ed, still do and still play. Personally finding it alot more thematic and interesting than the current version. Maybe 10th will be a blast?

[@Gstrowes]

This takes me right back. I was fielding a Blood Angel army back then, a spin-off from my Rogue Trader's retinue army from Rogue Trader. I remember facing off aginst Eldar, who were really powerful, and Space Wolves, who could be utterly broken. Cyclone Missile Launcher/Assault Cannon, Wolf Guard anyone?

[@polca4love]

I remember SW average troops being better than average marines while being same cost or even cheaper. Stupid wolfsues.

[@saintetienne373]

in second edition my Avatar would hide behind a building and take potshots with its 12 inch range wailing doom shooter. rarely made back its points but at least he survived.

[@gitling1979]

I've not only come from the vampire, but have recently put together and painted a 2nd edition Avatar for a friend's Ulthwe army.

[@vertigq5126]

I could watch this all day, great stuff man!

[@nicholassmith7984]

That Guard versus Eldar battle report was from the first edition of White Dwarf I ever purchased.

[@FnRenner]

Imagine if a channel like Titans or PllayOn used these battle round break down animations between turns to explain what just happened. That early Warhammer feel is like an Alanis Morsette song popping on during the 13th hour of a road trip. Even if you hate it you'll still not your head and sing along lol

[@jamess-b9119]

That Eldar Vs Imperial Guard battle report was in the first white dwarf magazine I ever bought. I I still remember every detail.

[@oliveragag8576]

I remember seeing this old model at my local games store a month ago.

[@MrRabbitbait]

This takes me back to my child hood

[@leonaudacity5313]

I remember that battle report still to this day.

[@Pegwarmers]

The Avatar was always pretty tough when I went up against him back in the day.

[@Jookman6]

Back in Rogue Trader it felt like the Avatar & Eldar Dreadnoughts we're nearly unstoppable for marine armies.. not to mention shuriken weapons made it so power armor had to roll a 6 to save..then came 2nd ed & the glory that was the assault cannon. I think i recall it doing something like d10 wounds & having 3 following fire dice, that is when their foul xeno god learned what fear was.

[@StrangelyBrownNo1]

This was far, far better than I anticipated

[@CryoniX]

Thanks for the nostalgia. Still my favourite game. Brought back lovely memories of my blood angels ripping through an Avatar with assault cannons.

[@josdijkstra5937]

subbed, hilarious content :D

[@touch_of_cobalt]

My god, I remember reading that exact white dwarf battle report in the library in secondary school....

[@OldenDemon]

That is a top quality school library

[@GoblinGreen2021]

Such a great vid! 🥳

[@OldenDemon]

Glad it hit the right mark

[@peterclarke7240]

I used to use an Eldar army back in the days of 2nd edn, and, while you're right about the Avatar being a very expensive glass cannon that very few people took... I think you've missed the point of 2nd edn AND the Avatar. 2nd edn wasn't the bonkers, bloated, meta-obsessed mess that 9th edn is, it was much more straightforward and the ATTITUDE of the players was very different. Character models weren't really the focus (because GW hadn't realised just how much money they could make off them) unless you were building an army bigger than 2000 points. Even THEN, character models weren't these ridiculously OP units that could table your opponent in a turn unless THEY had a character model, as well. They were intended, I believe, to give you a bit of an edge, but not much.

[@danielcrafter9349]

All of this Indeed, *the whole point* of the Avatar, Wraithlords, Greater Daemons and characters like Ragnar Blackmane was to draw fire and essentially tie up a enemy unit trying to take them down

[@IndianaSmallmouth]

@@danielcrafter9349 yes, you could always do better going light on all but the most essential characters, stocking up on the excellent troops...Farseer

[@polca4love]

Unfortunately, while the attitude of players changed to hyper competitive mode, the balance of the game barely improved, so...

[@didelphidae5228]

At this point, I think the balance of the game is intentionally skewed so people will all buy the newest editions in hopes it fixes the game, but it never does.

[@derfzgrld]

We gave each heavy weapon two damage values in our group. One (the original one) to use against tanks and a new one which usually just had the value 1 there to use against targets with wounds. Can recommend.

[@soupalex]

interesting fix! iirc there was the opposite rule in gorkamorka: weapons did their stated damage to targets with wounds, but never more than 1 (per hit) to vehicles (played a lot of gorkamorka but just missed 2nd ed 40k, so am unsure quite how much they diverged in terms of rules)

[@derfzgrld]

@@soupalex Thats because vehicles in 2e do not have any for of wounds. The damage is solely used to pierce their armor and this is the reason the damage values on the weapons are so random and often high (assault cannon does 1d10 for example, multi melta does 2d12, ...). There are very few models with more than 1 wound, so usually, the damage amount doesnt do anything, so they just put random anti tank stats in there.

[@davidrobotham309]

Great video!

[@DarkSitesChannel]

That battle report.....that hooked me on 40K.

[@johns8415]

outstanding analysis

[@roguedrones]

in the editions i played i once theorized about spamming eldar guardians with weapons platforms, and using the avatar defensively, it's ''fearless' aura buffing the guardians, and holding it back behind cover to counter-attack any close combat units.

[@ThePurplePassage]

Sounds like the weakness to heavy weapons could be fixed if the iron body rule capped damage to 1 would per shot (essentially what happened in 3rd edition, ranged weapons couldn't inflict multiple wounds)

[@vandur2322]

Remember the special Tyranid mission where they have infinite reinforcements but all you have to do is survive? Yeah, the Avatar can stay in combat with a thousand Hormagaunts if it has to.

[@dstanful]

A lot of this also applies to Tyranids in this edition. Hive Tyrants, Tyranid Warriors, Carnifexes. Heavy weapon magnets. You can give them ranged weapons, but youre still spending a load on close combat stats youll never use! Still fun though :)

[@Reddavebatcave]

Really interesting and funny, thanks! (Should proba come with a flashing images warning tho 📸)

[@OldenDemon]

In hindsight you are right, I will avoid them in future

[@NeonPinkApokalypse-nw6gv]

the mr blobby gave unwanted flash backs :D

[@OldenDemon]

It’s not always rose tinted goggles we look back with

[@Milknife]

As a 80's kid who still wears Lynks Africa ... -.- Well played.

[@travelbyfire8474]

If I remember correctly, the harlequin solitaire in 2nd edition was the bees knees. Upgraded properly they could give the avatar a run for his money in combat. They were even better in 3rd edition because their rules were never updated.

[@iandoddsblah]

That was very silly and strange. I enjoyed it a lot!

[@OldenDemon]

Based on true events

[@darnokx9277]

Quality content, much appreciated!

[@anthonytanner2343]

Awesome video

[@Kielari]

What are you using to replicate the battle report visuals? Battle Chronicler? Or something else? Genuinely curious as I've always liked that type of visual style and would love to use it myself.

[@OldenDemon]

After Effects I’m afraid

[@bobbobertbobberton1073]

I love the days when there was so little unit variations in an army. Ah simpler times. Also the models keep looking better and better.

[@inquisitorthrax9941]

Do you have the link to the GitHub repo for the BattleReport-o’matic please?

[@ThorOdinson]

Is there a specific program that you’re using for the maps?

[@awldune]

Reminds me of my carnifex, which was my proudest paint job and instantly died to lascannon fire any time I fielded it.

[@t0masibrudoctor534]

I actually had this white dwarf as a boy. Or at least an IG army vs Eldar with an assassin and an avatar in the report.

[@JoshMC2000]

Question would you be up for covering some other editions

[@OldenDemon]

No plans at this time, gathering all the assets takes a while

[@Verity98765]

If this has proved anything to me it's that me and my teenage friends had zero idea what we were doing in 2nd edition. My friend had an Avatar and I'm now pretty sure he cheated because the way he said it worked was an absolute menace. I remember asking a GW store employee how to deal with it and he said multi meltas on land speeders...

[@Marcicity]

Ha, awesome. Please do more!

[@Strawfoot]

Yes! This is so good!

[@KaineOfficial]

He was a luxury choice for the army, in larger games with more going on he’d tend to last a bit longer and do better, but those were rare. Ultimately in average games back then the showpieces tended to get targeted and hammered!

[@sacktheargonian]

Is the BattleReport-o-Matic a real program or is it just part of a bit?

[@EOTA564]

Strangely enough, the 80pt Avatar in 3rd ed was, point for point, by far the most effective iteration of the Avatar.

[@mwnciboo]

They should bring back the Avatar, with some of these rules in modern 40k. Immune to x,y,z type weapons would be amusing.

[@Marconius6]

Ah yes, a "photon beam" also known as a flashlight.

[@LordRaa]

Also, don't forget Rapiers. They were quite good at killing Avatars.

[@maxgregor3201]

Great video instantly subscribed could you do a dreadnought focused episode at some point!

[@OldenDemon]

Who are you and how did you see my pending scripts?

[@Whomobile]

What Chaos God does Mr Blobby serve?

[@SusCalvin]

Was this an issue with a lot of slow-moving close combat infantry? Terminator units with nothing but power weapons would melt if they tried to slowly walk up the field. Their 3+ armour using 2d6 or 2+ armour is powerful but high-strength weapons will quickly start knocking that down to a 3+ or 5+ unless they got a force field. The limited turn number means a powerful model reaching combat on turn 3 doesn't have that many turns left to make itself useful, even if it survives. Greater daemons, for example.

[@stujm84]

Awww, i loved the battle reports back in White dwarf when they looked like that, some heavy nostalgia there. GW obviously has a twisted sense of humour with decades of watching people's Avatars falling apart. They kept the model in production for so long before it got replaced that time you could have left school, done uni, got married and have kids so they could be old enough to get into 40k and experience the same issues! At least the Warpsiders didn't and don't have such risks in transport! That's 30 years of mastery planning from our GW overlords! 😂

[@OldenDemon]

I think you may enjoy what’s coming

[@slaaneshhedonite7068]

About twenty someodd years back I got the Avatar rune tatted on my shoulder. I never have - yet still might get the Slaanesh symbol on the other side. The one that’s on the inside cover of the OG RoC book. And yes, I was able to do the sword justice. 😈🔥

[@canceledlogic7656]

Who the neck wrote 2d6 damage for 1 lascannon? What was a unit of 4 in devastators supposed to blow up, the moon?

[@kharnifex]

That's no moon, it's an Ork Rok

[@soddof7972]

The best use for the avatar was dostracting all the guns from your aspect warriors